tniehoff, do you believe these 'abilities' useful in real training?

[MysteriousPower]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCEVMVZ9ofc&NR=1


You seem to be very focused on training for fighting and all out sparring to make your wing chun work. So I'm wondering if you belive someone with these supposed skills would survive in any of the gyms you train at or the ufc?

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCEVMVZ9ofc&NR=1


You seem to be very focused on training for fighting and all out sparring to make your wing chun work. So I'm wondering if you belive someone with these supposed skills would survive in any of the gyms you train at or the ufc?

In the iron body video, I see a lack of skill rather than skill. I see sloppy body punching on the part of the students and sloppy martial arts on the part of the instructor. As for the "Iron body," do 1500 repetitions of abdominal exercised 2-3 days per week for about 6 months along with a bit of medicine ball training and you will perform the same feet. Any professional fighter could do the same thing that the joker in this video is doing only they would have better techniques to use as counter.

The iron palm video is a fraud, like all iron palm videos. The fact that we can here the brick snap when it was hit simply means that it was placed on an uneven surface to create a space for the brick to break. Also, the brick obviously moves down when broken, indicating that he set the brick over a space.

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCEVMVZ9ofc&NR=1

You seem to be very focused on training for fighting and all out sparring to make your wing chun work. So I'm wondering if you belive someone with these supposed skills would survive in any of the gyms you train at or the ufc?

That is all bullsh1t. You can find videos of guys who take full power shots to the neck or groin IN DEMO -- but you never will find them willing to do it in fighting.

There is a very simple bullsh1t detector: quality realistic sparring. If you don't see it done in quality realistic sparring, then don't believe it. If someone says they can do something ask to see it in quality realistic sparring. If they won't - or can't do it - you know.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCEVMVZ9ofc&NR=1


You seem to be very focused on training for fighting and all out sparring to make your wing chun work. So I'm wondering if you belive someone with these supposed skills would survive in any of the gyms you train at or the ufc?

This is the second time you have brought up Dale Dugas, the first was in the Bagua VS MT thread.
You seem to have an aggenda?
May I suggest that if you wanna know if Dale is legit, you go visit him?
I know for a fact that his door is always open.
You can then tell us, first hand, how it went :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the iron body video, I see a lack of skill rather than skill. I see sloppy body punching on the part of the students and sloppy martial arts on the part of the instructor. As for the "Iron body," do 1500 repetitions of abdominal exercised 2-3 days per week for about 6 months along with a bit of medicine ball training and you will perform the same feet. Any professional fighter could do the same thing that the joker in this video is doing only they would have better techniques to use as counter.

The iron palm video is a fraud, like all iron palm videos. The fact that we can here the brick snap when it was hit simply means that it was placed on an uneven surface to create a space for the brick to break. Also, the brick obviously moves down when broken, indicating that he set the brick over a space.

Please feel free to visit Dale and find out, first hand, how fraudulent his IP is.
Lets us all know after it is done.

[Iron-Man]

The iron palm video is a fraud, like all iron palm videos. The fact that we can here the brick snap when it was hit simply means that it was placed on an uneven surface to create a space for the brick to break. Also, the brick obviously moves down when broken, indicating that he set the brick over a space.

Then explain this link ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy7IkL44Yrc&NR=1

[t_niehoff]

Then explain this link ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy7IkL44Yrc&NR=1

People can break all kinds of things. These are TRICKS or performances that have no relevance to fighting SKILL. All they do is confuse the gullible.

These things, like many demos, capture the IMAGINATION of people who don't know better, and they then believe that if they can break a brick or do a 1-inch punch or whatever, that this ability will translate into fighting. But it doesn't.

As I said, IF YOU DON"T SEE IT IN QUALITY REALISTIC FIGHTING THEN IT IS BS.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Then explain this link ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy7IkL44Yrc&NR=1

Looks like more of the same. A small fulcrum such as a pebble placed under the brick hence the loud noise. Those red bricks are usually pretty hard. The best thing to do with them is to bake the moisture out of them to make them brittle. Although, it really depends on the brand and the unique make-up of the brick.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People can break all kinds of things. These are TRICKS or performances that have no relevance to fighting SKILL. All they do is confuse the gullible.

These things, like many demos, capture the IMAGINATION of people who don't know better, and they then believe that if they can break a brick or do a 1-inch punch or whatever, that this ability will translate into fighting. But it doesn't.

As I said, IF YOU DON"T SEE IT IN QUALITY REALISTIC FIGHTING THEN IT IS BS.

I agree, it has very little to do with fighting skill, just like deadlifting 400lbs has nothing to do with fighting skill, or suplexing a 175lbs throwing dummy like it was a pillow, means nothing either.
Of course, couple that WITH fighting skill and that is another matter.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfVhDHlsWCw



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCEVMVZ9ofc&NR=1


You seem to be very focused on training for fighting and all out sparring to make your wing chun work. So I'm wondering if you belive someone with these supposed skills would survive in any of the gyms you train at or the ufc?

Those things have nothing to do with actually fighting. It is always interesting how the people who do "iron this" and "iron that" never have actual full-contact clips of themselves using their "iron" stuff for real, but always have plenty of demos.

[t_niehoff]

I agree, it has very little to do with fighting skill, just like deadlifting 400lbs has nothing to do with fighting skill, or suplexing a 175lbs throwing dummy like it was a pillow, means nothing either.
Of course, couple that WITH fighting skill and that is another matter.

That's not the same thing.

Those sorts of things are BS, they're distractions that only get in the way.

[Knifefighter]

I agree, it has very little to do with fighting skill, just like deadlifting 400lbs has nothing to do with fighting skill, or suplexing a 175lbs throwing dummy like it was a pillow, means nothing either.
Of course, couple that WITH fighting skill and that is another matter.

Unfortunately, they never couple it with actual fighting with another skilled opponent their own size.

The fact is, iron body is sort of like much of WC... works ok against smaller, not-so-skilled guys. However, it usually starts to fall apart when you try it out in full contact situations against guys your own size.

The best type of iron body training you can do is full contact sparring and competing.

As far as breaking, it is usually bullsh3hit and all for show. Notice how you never see anyone actually breaking something that is designed to withstand force, such as the concrete wall outside the place where they are doing the breaking demos.

[MaikuB]

Those things have nothing to do with actually fighting. It is always interesting how the people who do "iron this" and "iron that" never have actual full-contact clips of themselves using their "iron" stuff for real, but always have plenty of demos.

I don't know if i'd want to see guys with iron crotches in clips with "full-contact" :P

[HumbleWCGuy]

When threads like this pop up and I see posters who seem completely reasonable turn into chi ball throwing nutcases, it forces me to rethink some of what I thought about Dale and T just mindlessly droning on about sparring and conditioning.

[MysteriousPower]

How I feel about Dale or anyone has no bearing here. You seem to be friends with him which is why you got defensive. Big I put up some shaolin monk doing the same you wouldve shot it down with everyone else. None of this changes the fact that these "powers" can't actually be utilized in combat. Especially not in sparring. These guys NEVER allow shots to the face during these demonstrations. One canny claim to have fighting ability and only post videos such as these.

[Iron-Man]

In the iron body video,

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1006457]Looks like more of the same. A small fulcrum such as a pebble placed under the brick hence the loud noise. Those red bricks are usually pretty hard. The best thing to do with them is to bake the moisture out of them to make them brittle. Although, it really depends on the brand and the unique make-up of the brick.

Maybe you should try slapping something hard in silence ? Have your ever heard of sound waves ? So you saw a pebble placed down each time did you ? pretty hard to balance a pepple on the smaller pieces would you not think ? Also i wouldn't break anything over a pebble incase it injured my wrist. I suggest you base your comments on facts rather than trying to sound intelligent to cover personal ignorance !

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unfortunately, they never couple it with actual fighting with another skilled opponent their own size.

The fact is, iron body is sort of like much of WC... works ok against smaller, not-so-skilled guys. However, it usually starts to fall apart when you try it out in full contact situations against guys your own size.

The best type of iron body training you can do is full contact sparring and competing.

As far as breaking, it is usually bullsh3hit and all for show. Notice how you never see anyone actually breaking something that is designed to withstand force, such as the concrete wall outside the place where they are doing the breaking demos.

Here is the thing, I agree, but only to an extent.
I agree that more people should, indeed MUST, couple their specialised "kungs" with fighting, but the thing is, that is how it is SUPPOSED to be done anyways !
The fact that many don't doesn't downplay whether these methods are effective.
Iron body is SUPPOSED to be done in a fighting environment, it goes from"static" IB to dynamic ( use din fighting) so that you don't suffer from what many guys call "stage dependency" in which the IB only works in that way ( many sanchin guys suffer of that also).

As for your view on IP, you stated that one before and I disagree with your analogy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How I feel about Dale or anyone has no bearing here. You seem to be friends with him which is why you got defensive. Big I put up some shaolin monk doing the same you wouldve shot it down with everyone else. None of this changes the fact that these "powers" can't actually be utilized in combat. Especially not in sparring. These guys NEVER allow shots to the face during these demonstrations. One canny claim to have fighting ability and only post videos such as these.

Yes I am friends with Dale, the fact that you brought him up in another thread shows that you have an agenda.
Allowing shots to the face is irrelevant since IV and IB training doesn't cover that.
You have an agenda and I would like to know what it is, I am asking NOW as a posters and I suggest you answer before I ask as a Moderator.
I have seen many fake IB and IP and I have seen the real one, Dale is open to anyone coming by and testing him in a nice way or bad, your choice.
The proof is in the pudding, so go get some pudding.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's not the same thing.

Those sorts of things are BS, they're distractions that only get in the way.

I agree to a point, I have seen too many Ip guys neglect their fighting because they think they have a "secret weapon" so yes, I can see it being a distraction.

[Knifefighter]

Yes I am friends with Dale, the fact that you brought him up in another thread shows that you have an agenda.
Allowing shots to the face is irrelevant since IV and IB training doesn't cover that.
You have an agenda and I would like to know what it is, I am asking NOW as a posters and I suggest you answer before I ask as a Moderator.
I have seen many fake IB and IP and I have seen the real one, Dale is open to anyone coming by and testing him in a nice way or bad, your choice.
The proof is in the pudding, so go get some pudding.

Have you ever seen him fight full contact against someone who is halfway skilled and the same size as him?

[Iron-Man]

People can break all kinds of things. These are TRICKS or performances that have no relevance to fighting SKILL. All they do is confuse the gullible.

These things, like many demos, capture the IMAGINATION of people who don't know better, and they then believe that if they can break a brick or do a 1-inch punch or whatever, that this ability will translate into fighting. But it doesn't.

As I said, IF YOU DON"T SEE IT IN QUALITY REALISTIC FIGHTING THEN IT IS BS.

Where does it suggest in any website that you should use Iron palm in a fight or for self defence ? Just because you learn the sword, does it mean you should behead someone once your have mastered it ?

Iron palm is intended to smash skulls and cause internal bruising/bleeding to internal organs. So if for some miracle someone can make it work ??? Are you are suggesting for the sake of curiosity one should find someone, preferably yourself and test it out ?!

Why dont you offer yourself ? afterall its fake so what would you have to loose ? At least you will end speculation. oh and dont forget to take your camcorder. I will even offer to pay for some plasters or some headache pills if the guy is really good !

Anyway what does breaking bricks have to do with fighting skills ? Iron palm is a form of traditional power training, a power component of some TCMA styles . No different to boxers working a bag to improve power.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you ever seen him fight full contact against someone who is halfway skilled and the same size as him?

Have I made any claims about Dale's fighting ability?
What you quoted was me asking "mysterious power" what his agenda was with Dale and I ask that because he brought up Dale in the Maoshan/MT thread, so I am seeing a pattern.

If I wanted to test Dale's fighting ability, I know where I would go and I would do that BEFORE I commented on what he did as being fraud, fake or useless.

[Knifefighter]

Anyway what does breaking bricks have to do with fighting skills ? Iron palm is a form of traditional power training, a power component of some TCMA styles . No different to boxers working a bag to improve power.

They are completely different. Heavy bag training is dynamic, designed to try to someowhat mimic the movement of an opponent. Breaking is static with no movement.


Iron palm is intended to smash skulls and cause internal bruising/bleeding to internal organs. So if for some miracle someone can make it work ??? Are you are suggesting for the sake of curiosity one should find someone, preferably yourself and test it out ?!
And that is generally one of the main problems with it. Things you cannot test out generally end up not really working when you have to use them for real. This has been show to be pretty much true over and over again.

[Knifefighter]

Have I made any claims about Dale's fighting ability?
What you quoted was me asking "mysterious power" what his agenda was with Dale and I ask that because he brought up Dale in the Maoshan/MT thread, so I am seeing a pattern.

If I wanted to test Dale's fighting ability, I know where I would go and I would do that BEFORE I commented on what he did as being fraud, fake or useless.

It seems like you were, indirectly, making claims for his fighting ability.

Since he is doing things that are often fraudulent, without actually showing any proof in more realistic situations and, since we have a long history of people making amazing claims for things and then not being able to follow up with these things in reality, thinking he is doing the same isn't too far from the mark. Generally, it should be up to the person making the claim to the "powers" to show some kind of realistic proof in the first place.

[Iron-Man]

Those things have nothing to do with actually fighting. It is always interesting how the people who do "iron this" and "iron that" never have actual full-contact clips of themselves using their "iron" stuff for real, but always have plenty of demos.

Absolutely correct there is no relation. Who on here is making that statement ? Even if a boxer developed enough power on the bag to crush the whole side of someone or was able to smash a skull. Would you suggest he try for the sake of science ?

May i suggest it is you and others that is trying to link a form of traditional power training to fighting skills !

I see nothing wrong with demostrations that show a level of personal achievment. I would not automatically assume an champion olympic archer would be great in a real battle, but i still wouldn't mind seeing their demonstration of skill and personal attainment.

I know you are a good fighter, but you are beginning to sound like a man on a mission......worse still you are trying to bait !

[Knifefighter]

Absolutely correct there is no relation. Who on here is making that statement ?
You were. You were saying that breaking and heavy bag training were the same:
"Iron palm is a form of traditional power training, a power component of some TCMA styles . No different to boxers working a bag to improve power."


Even if a boxer developed enough power on the bag to crush the whole side of someone or was able to smash a skull. Would you suggest he try for the sake of science ?
That's pretty much what every single MMA fighter/Muay Thai fighter/boxer is trying to do. The fact is, it generally doesn't work. If it did, that's what you would be seeing.



May i suggest it is you and others that is trying to link a form of traditional power training to fighting skills !
I'm fine with saying there is not much correlation.


I see nothing wrong with demostrations that show a level of personal achievment. I would not automatically assume an champion olympic archer would be great in a real battle, but i still wouldn't mind seeing their demonstration of skill and personal attainment.

That's fine. I agree.

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK, here is why you break, itis a test, but not of power.
This is what I mean.
When I did TKD and Kyokushin, we broke all the time, boards, bricks, assorted fruits and various types of patio furniture ;).
It was a test of speed, power and focus, over coming pain too, but it was never viewed as a test of fighting, that is what kumite was for.

Now, in regards to Ip, breaking is about how LITTLE effort is needed to break soemthign and that is the test.

Anyone can "power break" through a slab or 2 or even 3, but doing it with as little effort as possible is what makes IP training unique.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since he is doing things that are often fraudulent, without actually showing any proof in more realistic situations and, since we have a long history of people making amazing claims for things and then not being able to follow up with these things in reality, thinking he is doing the same isn't too far from the mark. Generally, it should be up to the person making the claim to the "powers" to show some kind of realistic proof in the first place.

Hmmm, a very valid point.

[Knifefighter]

OK, here is why you break, itis a test, but not of power.
This is what I mean.
When I did TKD and Kyokushin, we broke all the time, boards, bricks, assorted fruits and various types of patio furniture ;).
It was a test of speed, power and focus, over coming pain too, but it was never viewed as a test of fighting, that is what kumite was for.

Now, in regards to Ip, breaking is about how LITTLE effort is needed to break soemthign and that is the test.

Anyone can "power break" through a slab or 2 or even 3, but doing it with as little effort as possible is what makes IP training unique.


All of that is fine, but here's the problem. You end up with yahoos who think it means you can "rupture internal organs, break skulls etc", that somehow gives one some kind of super powers.

The fact is, actually hitting a real opponent with full force in realistic situations will give you far more power in realistic situations than any iron palm training will.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All of that is fine, but here's the problem. You end up with yahoos who think it means you can "rupture internal organs, break skulls etc", that somehow gives one some kind of super powers.

The fact is, actually hitting a real opponent with full force in realistic situations will give you far more power in realistic situations than any iron palm training will.

I can't argue about the yahoos, I have seen an met a few, unfortunately.

[Iron-Man]

You were. You were saying that breaking and heavy bag training were the same:
"Iron palm is a form of traditional power training, a power component of some TCMA styles . No different to boxers working a bag to improve power."

We still fill bags with sand/pebbles and iron, its how you want to train your power. Most people who train iron palm do so to improve hand conditioning and power, not to break bricks. I'm sure there are boxers who can reach over 1000ft lb, but how many do and how many want to ? On an untrained opponent, that amount of power can be leathal. People occaisionally break limbs in competition so why is it Inconceivable that the power could do real damage in the hands of the right fighter.



That's pretty much what every single MMA fighter/Muay Thai fighter/boxer is trying to do. The fact is, it generally doesn't work. If it did, that's what you would be seeing.."

Get the most powerful MMA fighter/Muay Thai fighter/boxer and get them to take their gloves off and then get them to walk into a bar and hit as hard as they possibly can and then see the results.

[duende]

Iron palm/shirt etc.. Is just another form of conditioning. It is not a substitute for real sparring etc...

But it is definitely beneficial to developing and focusing power at the point of contact/bridge.

[Iron-Man]

Iron palm/shirt etc.. Is just another form of conditioning. It is not a substitute for real sparring etc....

Just curious who are you defending ??? Who on here is suggesting that it is a substitute for real sparring ?

[Knifefighter]

We still fill bags with sand/pebbles and iron, its how you want to train your power. Most people who train iron palm do so to improve hand conditioning and power, not to break bricks. I'm sure there are boxers who can reach over 1000ft lb, but how many do and how many want to ? On an untrained opponent, that amount of power can be leathal. People occaisionally break limbs in competition so why is it Inconceivable that the power could do real damage in the hands of the right fighter.



Get the most powerful MMA fighter/Muay Thai fighter/boxer and get them to take their gloves off and then get them to walk into a bar and hit as hard as they possibly can and then see the results.

The results would be:
1- Lots of KO'ed guys.
2- The occasional broken hand.

Do the same with the iron palm guys and you would end up with more broken bones because they are not used to hitting moving resisting opponents. Their whole hitting structure would be thrown off.

Breaking/hitting a non-moving object in a non-stressful situation does not make it less likely that you will break your hand in a real fight... it makes it more likely.

[duende]

Just curious who are you defending ??? Who on here is suggesting that it is a substitute for real sparring ?

If anything I'm defending the benefits of iron palm conditioning. By placing it in it's proper context. :)

[Iron-Man]

The results would be:
1- Lots of KO'ed guys.
2- The occasional broken hand.

Do the same with the iron palm guys and you would end up with more broken bones because they are not used to hitting moving resisting opponents. Their whole hitting structure would be thrown off.

Breaking/hitting a non-moving object in a non-stressful situation does not make it less likely that you will break your hand in a real fight... it makes it more likely.

I would suggest over several bar fights, maybe some broken cheeks, jaws and ribs ! We see these injury in normal bar fights, so you are telling me that the best of the best without gloves can only manage a knockout if they were really trying ?

Anyone who can smash a brick comfortably shouldn't have a problem smashing a cheek or jaw. No one is suggesting that you manage a break on first contact. In the past inevitably some who trained , intended to use it to kill.

Now 'theorectically' if i really wanted to smash a face using an iron palm breaking technique, i would first have to knock them to the point where they could not resist, there is no suggestion that i have to make the breaking blow on my first punch or even my 10th. Am i not allowed a throw an apponent to the ground, or use a kick to render him helpless. Then when i dont have much resistance i can press the head against the floor then i would go about my breaking.

It seems you are still linking Iron Palm breaking to fighting skills. Who is even suggesting we have to use the technique before it is appropriate. Judo guys throw, but they wouldn't if it was not the time to do so. To suggested that we need to use IP and that single blow would suffice comes from your camp not ours.

Who said i have to hit a moving target with it. Breaking is a skill and requires a lot of training and focus, as such it is a tool, and as hard as it is to break ribs using the knees during a fight, with enough training i'm sure it can happen. Even in the demos when there is no distractions it takes some of the best, several attempts.

[Knifefighter]

Who said i have to hit a moving target with it. Breaking is a skill and requires a lot of training and focus, as such it is a tool, and as hard as it is to break ribs using the knees during a fight, with enough training i'm sure it can happen. Even in the demos when there is no distractions it takes some of the best, several attempts.

So, it really doesn't have much correlation to fighting. I'm fine with that.

[MysteriousPower]

Sanjuro ronin,
as I recall you're the moderator of the southern Kung Fu forum so I'm not sure why you're infringing here in wing chun land. You put Moderator in capitals like a threat. Let's all relax here.

I have no agenda than to ask questions and possibly present a view. The fact that I used Bostonbagua's videos doesn't change the purpose of the thread. Never one did I ask if Dale has any fighting ability. My question was if the sparring people/fighters believed if these skills were useful. Others questioned his ability. I must point out that Dale put these videos up to advertise himself. They are free for anyone to look at and comment on. I think he disabled the comments on YouTube for whatever reason. I may be wrong.

Freedom of speech, moderator. I didn't day anything about Dale in this thread. If I had put a video up of an old Chinese guy you wouldn't have thrown Moderator in my face. Try to stay neutral.

I have never met an iron palm person or seen one fighting anywhere. It's a valid question. I agree with knifefighter.

[goju]

Those things have nothing to do with actually fighting. It is always interesting how the people who do "iron this" and "iron that" never have actual full-contact clips of themselves using their "iron" stuff for real, but always have plenty of demos.


there was that boxer who did iron palm and the numerous karateka who do hand forging competing out there

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro ronin,
as I recall you're the moderator of the southern Kung Fu forum so I'm not sure why you're infringing here in wing chun land. You put Moderator in capitals like a threat. Let's all relax here.

I have no agenda than to ask questions and possibly present a view. The fact that I used Bostonbagua's videos doesn't change the purpose of the thread. Never one did I ask if Dale has any fighting ability. My question was if the sparring people/fighters believed if these skills were useful. Others questioned his ability. I must point out that Dale put these videos up to advertise himself. They are free for anyone to look at and comment on. I think he disabled the comments on YouTube for whatever reason. I may be wrong.

Freedom of speech, moderator. I didn't day anything about Dale in this thread. If I had put a video up of an old Chinese guy you wouldn't have thrown Moderator in my face. Try to stay neutral.

I have never met an iron palm person or seen one fighting anywhere. It's a valid question. I agree with knifefighter.


Well, you used him as an example in another thread too, didn't you?
Simply a coincednce?
With all the IP videos out there?
Sorry, don't buy it for a second.
If I am mistaken, I apologise and all you have to do is explain why you chose Dale as an example in the other thread AND this one?
for BOTH videos?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, it really doesn't have much correlation to fighting. I'm fine with that.

Breaking has no correlation to fighting, neither does IP or IB, just like strength training doesn't have any direct correlation to fighting either.
Only fighting has any direct relation to fighting.
And yes, IP and IB training is a horrible substitute for fighting, but it was also never meant to be and most IP teachers warn against this very thing.

[goju]

wow it took pages to conclude fighting is for fighting

heres a new revelation!

fire is hot:rolleyes::D

[Pacman]

That's not the same thing.

Those sorts of things are BS, they're distractions that only get in the way.

as usual someone brings up a really good point and its completely ignored

[MysteriousPower]

Totally coinidence. I had been looking up supposed IP vids and came accrodd his. They were chosen because I didn't like the way other videos looked. While watching the vids I formulated the thread in my head. Terrence is one of the few that talks about sparring here so I asked him his opinion whether he felt these esoteric pratices would be of benefit in his opinion.

The other thread was just me making a joke of sorts. I read a thread once where Dale was arguing about ba gua with someone else and I was put off by his tone. It was a bad joke.

Apology accepted. Please put your moderating gun away before it accidentally goes off and takes an eye out.

I wonder how and if an iron palm strike differs from really hard blow. From what I've heard you hit lighter but the hand itself I'd heavier so the strike is super damaging. Looking at what I just typed it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It would make more sense to hit as hard as possible with a pretty good conditioned hand for self defense purposes.

As for iron body I don't buy it. A body would never be able to withstand a blow from a knife or a blunt object swung hard. What if the person punching has an enormous adrenaline rush and ends up hitting with tons of power equaling that of a powerful swinging blunt object?

Here's a whopper!! What if an iron palm master gets into a fight with an iron body master? Theoretically they would cancel each other out with the IB person having the advantage. Think about that last sentence really hard.

[sanjuro_ronin]

All IP is, "scientifically" is a method of increasing bone density in the hand via low impact repetitive shock "trauma".
Think the difference in the bones of a runners feet if he runs 2 years with running shoes compared to one that runs the same time without them.

[MysteriousPower]

Just remembered something.

Kyokushin fighters train and compete by punching and kicking each other to the torso and legs. No blocking allowed during competition. Loser is the one that can't handle the pain. They don't claim any special powers though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just remembered something.

Kyokushin fighters train and compete by punching and kicking each other to the torso and legs. No blocking allowed during competition. Loser is the one that can't handle the pain. They don't claim any special powers though.

I have a nidan in kyokushin and competed quite a bit, got a few medals to my name too.
While there is an esoteric element in kyokushin, it is attainable after LOTS of hard work and pain.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IP and Ib has nothing to do with special powers, its hard work and pain.
The results have anatomical explanations.

[MysteriousPower]

You were a kyushin?? You crazy. That's pretty cool. Who would you rather get into a fight with? A top kyushin or a top mma person?

People that do ip and ib tend to talk about it in a romanticized tone that implies being special.

[Sardinkahnikov]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't iron palm and iron body conditioning methods, and not fighting tools per se? Dunno if hard contact sparring produces "better" results, but I suppose that Iron Body is something you can do more regularly.
Also, aren't there health benefits associated with the practice of Iron body?

[Sardinkahnikov]

Here's a whopper!! What if an iron palm master gets into a fight with an iron body master? Theoretically they would cancel each other out with the IB person having the advantage. Think about that last sentence really hard.

Well, the IP master could just hit the IB master's head instead!:p

[goju]

wait what? there is blocking in kk karate right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You were a kyushin?? You crazy. That's pretty cool. Who would you rather get into a fight with? A top kyushin or a top mma person?

People that do ip and ib tend to talk about it in a romanticized tone that implies being special.

mma people are better rounded fighters than typical kyokushin guys.
No, Ip and IB are not special, they just aren't for everyone, not everyone is willing to put in the time and pain to develop them.

[anerlich]

Notice how you never see anyone actually breaking something that is designed to withstand force, such as the concrete wall outside the place where they are doing the breaking demos.

I witnessed Morio Higaonna kicking a hole through a 44 gallon drum with his bare foot after the guy who bought him to Australia was unable to arrange a supply of the more usual breaking materials. He'd promised breaking as part of his pretty impressive demo, ans they walked around the place for a while until they found the drum. BANG. Demo over.

I hope no one is seriously suggesting that he's some sort of show pony.

[Pacman]

i sanjuro and others explained it perfectly many times

showing that you have IP does not mean that you have the other abilities necessary to be a well rounded and successful fighter.

all it means is that you have IP abilities.

now if you can couple your IP abilities with other skills then thats impressive.

dale and niehoff are prejudiced idiots. its the same as a boxer showing you his powerful punch; it doesnt mean hes a good fighter, he just has a good punch.

if someone showed them a video of a boxer beating the bejesus out of a punching bag they would have an instant wet dream and not say anything negative about it.

i was impressed by this when i first saw it a few years ago. again its just showing the speed he was able to produce

http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/wing-chun-one-inch-punch.html

the second punch in the video is the most subtle.

[goju]

yeah but they didnt knock down a concrete wall :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

dale and niehoff are prejudiced idiots. its the same as a boxer showing you his powerful punch; it doesnt mean hes a good fighter, he just has a good punch.

Boxers tend not to do things like that much. They tend to show what works by actually fighting and competing. They tend not to show demos trying to get people to extrapolate those techniques into fighting application.

You won't see much of that kind of stuff from people who do the real deal.

[MysteriousPower]

i sanjuro and others explained it perfectly many times

showing that you have IP does not mean that you have the other abilities necessary to be a well rounded and successful fighter.

all it means is that you have IP abilities.

now if you can couple your IP abilities with other skills then thats impressive.

dale and niehoff are prejudiced idiots. its the same as a boxer showing you his powerful punch; it doesnt mean hes a good fighter, he just has a good punch.

if someone showed them a video of a boxer beating the bejesus out of a punching bag they would have an instant wet dream and not say anything negative about it.

i was impressed by this when i first saw it a few years ago. again its just showing the speed he was able to produce

http://www.wingchunkungfu.org/wing-chun-one-inch-punch.html

the second punch in the video is the most subtle.

That's a bit harsh! I would say that they lean heavily in the direction of useful training and like to stay away from talks about special powers. Others have said that iron palm and iron body aren't special...but they are mentioned in semi-mystical ways. I've noticed that traditional Chinese martial artists like to bring up stories of people with "lightness" skills which is another way of saying they can jump high and that this skill can be trained. Michael Jordan probably didn't have to train to slam dunk so was he born with natural "lightness" skills? Then they'll talk about how so and so was able to jump on to a plastic bottle and not put a dent in it. Stories like this damage Chinese martial arts.

[Pacman]

Boxers tend not to do things like that much. They tend to show what works by actually fighting and competing. They tend not to show demos trying to get people to extrapolate those techniques into fighting application.

You won't see much of that kind of stuff from people who do the real deal.

so when is your iron palm video coming out?

[Pacman]

That's a bit harsh! I would say that they lean heavily in the direction of useful training and like to stay away from talks about special powers. Others have said that iron palm and iron body aren't special...but they are mentioned in semi-mystical ways. I've noticed that traditional Chinese martial artists like to bring up stories of people with "lightness" skills which is another way of saying they can jump high and that this skill can be trained. Michael Jordan probably didn't have to train to slam dunk so was he born with natural "lightness" skills? Then they'll talk about how so and so was able to jump on to a plastic bottle and not put a dent in it. Stories like this damage Chinese martial arts.

they might have learned a thing or two from their experiences or mistakes, but they think they have figured it all out. they think they know everything and have this ego which is based on NOTHING but sheer hypocrisy.

according to niehoff's views we shouldnt listen to anyone who is not a proven skilled fighter. so by that logic we should not listen to him as he is not a proven skilled experienced fighter,

dale has a bjj black belt and has been in full contact competitions but he is not a proven skilled standup fighter, which is what we are discussing. also, his record is anything but remarkable. being tough and being willing to get hurt in a competition does not qualify you to talk about fighting skills or tactics

[Knifefighter]

dale has a bjj black belt and has been in full contact competitions but he is not a proven skilled standup fighter, which is what we are discussing. also, his record is anything but remarkable. being tough and being willing to get hurt in a competition does not qualify you to talk about fighting skills or tactics

Post the clips of yourself fighting and some links to your qualifications. Until then, based on your own criteria, that seems to make you even less qualified, so you probably should quit posting altogether.

[Pacman]

Post the clips of yourself fighting and some links to your qualifications. Until then, based on your own criteria, that seems to make you even less qualified, so you probably should quit posting altogether.

you dont need to be a great fighter to post or even know anything to post

you do however, need to have hefty credentials to back yourself up when constantly telling everyone else on the board they don't know wtf they are doing and they don't know wtf they are talking about, especially regarding an art that you admittedly did not spend much time on.

this goes for you and niehoff

[SAAMAG]

I like MMA. I think it's the slap in the face that the martial arts community needed to bring all these "fighting arts" back to reality. I like cross training, and I enjoy learning new things.

What I don't like are people with huge ego's who take over every conversation knowing full well they no longer (or ever did) train in the art that the forum is dedicated to.

Entering competitions does not = enlightenment, nor does it produce skill. While you learn much in your experience in competitions, it's nothing more than a testing ground to see if you've developed the necessary skill in your training. Let me repeat that: it's the testing ground to see if you acquired the desired skills from your training.

You don't need to be part of a Nevada state athletic commissioned pay-per-view venue to know if you've acquired skills. You only need to train with a realistic regimen where those tests happen in-house or inter-school.

[t_niehoff]

you dont need to be a great fighter to post or even know anything to post

you do however, need to have hefty credentials to back yourself up when constantly telling everyone else on the board they don't know wtf they are doing and they don't know wtf they are talking about, especially regarding an art that you admittedly did not spend much time on.

this goes for you and niehoff

What I hear a lot of on this forum is stuff like "WCK works on the ground." In fact, there are people -- who teach! -- on this forum who say just that.

Then there are people, like me, who are not very good on the ground (I admit it) but nevertheless have put in lots of time (hundreds of hours) rolling on the ground with very good people (including world champs, national champs, etc.). So I have a VERY good idea of what things work on the ground, what things don't work on the ground, etc. And I know WCK. So I KNOW that WCK doesn't work on the ground -- from experience. WCK just doesn't give you the tools, nor does it give you the training (rolling) to develop any ground skill.

But, people continue to say "WCK works on the ground".

What makes these people believe that? Is it that they are rolling with good, skilled grapplers and their WCK is working? No. It is their speculation, their fantasy.

Now, I can tell people why WCK won't work on the ground, but that won't shake them out of their fantasy that it will. They will come up with fantasy responses to anything I point out. In theory, many, many things SOUND good or plausible, and it is easy to trick yourself. And this is true of doing unrealistic "training" -- it is easy to trick yourself.

And, this is the point Dale and I (and others) keep trying to make -- and the reason we ask "are you already doing it in sparring against good people " is because that's the only genuine evidence that is meaningful. Could someone convince me that I was wrong? Sure -- just show me that they can use their WCK to successfully handle good, skilled people on the ground. Don't tell me you could do it if you wanted to, that you've done in lots of time "on the street" or that your "grandmaster" says so or that you can do it against your scrub students in class, because none of that proves sh1t. The ONLY MEANINGFUL evidence is that you are already doing it or someone is already doing it successfully against good, skilled people in fighting/sparring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets try to get this out of the personal attack mode and back to the thread, if we can.
Fact is, the only test of fighting skill is fighting, that is a given and NO ONE disputes that.
Can IP and IB training be useful?
Yes, they can also be detrimental.
Over reliance on anything physical can be deterimental.
Depending too much on speed, too much on strength, too much on cardio, all those things can be deterimental, but all those things are also assets.
IP and IB training is a multi facet training regime, problem is many people stop at the static part and don't apply them in fighting as much as they should to develop them to the best degree possible.
Not everyone is inclined to demo their IP training by hitting people, nor should they be, especially when IP TRAINING and not fighting ability can be demoed by a simple break or two.
Same thing with IB training.
That said, unless you apply those things in combat, we can't be confident that they work.

[Knifefighter]

Entering competitions does not = enlightenment, nor does it produce skill. While you learn much in your experience in competitions, it's nothing more than a testing ground to see if you've developed the necessary skill in your training. Let me repeat that: it's the testing ground to see if you acquired the desired skills from your training.

Competing DOES produce skill. That is pretty well-established in most fields of human physical activity. As a matter of fact, this basic concept is used by most elite athletes as part of their peaking programs.

[Frost]

Competing DOES produce skill. That is pretty well-established in most fields of human physical activity. As a matter of fact, this basic concept is used by most elite athletes as part of their peaking programs.

whilst i have not competed as much as dale or paul i have competed and it does produce skill and give you a skillset and knowledge that is pricelss: competing makes you train harder, and it allows you to learn what works for you in an enviroment that is tougher/more demanding than any you will find in a club. when you go back to sparring/normal training after competing its amazing how slow everyone seems to be moving and how more relaxed and skilled you are.

[m1k3]

I think the problem can be easily identified by the title of the thread where it is asked "...do you BELIEVE these abilities useful...".

It doesn't matter what you believe. Either your training works or it doesn't. And you test your training by competing, or in my case rolling with people who compete.

Belief has nothing to do with it.

OK, back to our regular posting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never liked competing for competitions sake, of course I liked winning and hated losing and maybe that was why.
But competing for testing and for getting better was awesome, loads of fun, very little ego and tremendous skill development and increase in understanding.

[Pacman]

is this the classic use of a "red herring" ?

I never said WC works on the ground, nor was it in this discussion thread at all.

The only thing that ever came close was that your Sifu Robert Chu said that some Biu Jee "body mechanics" equates to a BJJ guillotine

you repeat "are you sparring with good people" constantly or "are you training realistically" and people say "yes". these are people, btw, who arent saying WC works on the ground or anything like that.

then you say, without knowing a thing about them, "BULL$HIT, no you arent, because if you did you would come to the same conclusion i would".

here's a thought. if you have spent hours and hours training BJJ, and with experts and you still stink, you have zero athletic ability, coordination etc and should just give up.

you couldn't make your karate work. you couldn't make your wing chun work. and now you can't make your BJJ work. part of it along the way were teachers that probably didnt know wtf they were talking about but maybe the other part is you.

so here's the deal. we all get what you are saying. i dont think anyone disagrees. your repetition is a certified CIA enhanced interrogation technique. just use that in combat instead of anything physical, its probably your most effective weapon. in person im sure you can get someone to blow their own brains out in about 2.5 seconds


What I hear a lot of on this forum is stuff like "WCK works on the ground." In fact, there are people -- who teach! -- on this forum who say just that.

Then there are people, like me, who are not very good on the ground (I admit it) but nevertheless have put in lots of time (hundreds of hours) rolling on the ground with very good people (including world champs, national champs, etc.). So I have a VERY good idea of what things work on the ground, what things don't work on the ground, etc. And I know WCK. So I KNOW that WCK doesn't work on the ground -- from experience. WCK just doesn't give you the tools, nor does it give you the training (rolling) to develop any ground skill.

But, people continue to say "WCK works on the ground".

What makes these people believe that? Is it that they are rolling with good, skilled grapplers and their WCK is working? No. It is their speculation, their fantasy.

Now, I can tell people why WCK won't work on the ground, but that won't shake them out of their fantasy that it will. They will come up with fantasy responses to anything I point out. In theory, many, many things SOUND good or plausible, and it is easy to trick yourself. And this is true of doing unrealistic "training" -- it is easy to trick yourself.

And, this is the point Dale and I (and others) keep trying to make -- and the reason we ask "are you already doing it in sparring against good people " is because that's the only genuine evidence that is meaningful. Could someone convince me that I was wrong? Sure -- just show me that they can use their WCK to successfully handle good, skilled people on the ground. Don't tell me you could do it if you wanted to, that you've done in lots of time "on the street" or that your "grandmaster" says so or that you can do it against your scrub students in class, because none of that proves sh1t. The ONLY MEANINGFUL evidence is that you are already doing it or someone is already doing it successfully against good, skilled people in fighting/sparring.

[chusauli]

I never said WC works on the ground, nor was it in this discussion thread at all.

The only thing that ever came close was that your Sifu Robert Chu said that some Biu Jee "body mechanics" equates to a BJJ guillotine



Pacman,

My apologies for thinking you were a Fut Sao guy. Who did you learn from?

I think you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the Sam Bai Fut from Biu Jee form mechanics (at least the way we do it) can be viewed as a an incidental guillotine - not that they are specifically for the use of a guillotine. Also, they can be underhooks, arm lock, come along, bow and wrist lock against lapel grab, double leg take down, single leg takedown, ward off from someone striking above, regaining of balance, throw sand in your eyes, throw bottle in your face, extreme dodge/duck maneuver, throw like osoto gari, hip throw like O Goshi, back throw like ippon seoinage...etc. These are all incidental - mechanics are not techniques, but they can produce a certain technique when executed at a moment in time. And I am not saying these are secret hidden techniques in WCK sets.

If you are going to credit me with the guillotine, please use your mind to understand what I am really saying. Also, don't just limit me to the guillotine.

Yes, I realize my WCK interpretations are more wide than most. But that's just me. If yours is limited, what is the reason?

[SAAMAG]

Competing DOES produce skill. That is pretty well-established in most fields of human physical activity. As a matter of fact, this basic concept is used by most elite athletes as part of their peaking programs.


whilst i have not competed as much as dale or paul i have competed and it does produce skill and give you a skillset and knowledge that is pricelss: competing makes you train harder, and it allows you to learn what works for you in an enviroment that is tougher/more demanding than any you will find in a club. when you go back to sparring/normal training after competing its amazing how slow everyone seems to be moving and how more relaxed and skilled you are.

From my perspective it doesn't. Competing provides experience in application. Afterwards, you will have gained insight about what you do, where your flaws are, where your strengths are, and the like. You don't get any direct SKILL development during the competition. Think about it for a second. Even Frost reinforced my statement without even realizing it.

TRAINING happens before and after the fight, not during. Thus SKILL DEVELOPMENT occurs before the event, it is TESTED during the event, and it is REVISED AND IMPROVED UPON after the event.

Additionally, you can indeed have the same levels of competition within a club. It just depends on how hard you want to go. If you want to go with the same rules and gear as a pro fight--you can do it. It's no different except that you know more about your opponent, which is the only advantage to open competition--getting a hold of fresh fighters who do things different than you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You make a valid point vanken, I would say that the majority of skill is developed in training, both core and fine tuning, but competition can be a tool used to develop skill too.

[Pacman]

sorry if i oversimplified your position sorry i was not trying to do that. i said that you said "some Biu Jee 'body mechanics' equates to a BJJ guillotine". Isn't that what you are saying now? Some of the body mechanics are the same? Also, in the original discussion you referred to Aaron Baum using a guillotine as an example of WCK in action.

i understand what you are saying about mechanics not being techniques and how some mechanics are universal etc. that i agree with, but i dont agree with relating it all to WC.

your definition of what is and what is not WC is too liberal and esoteric because if you go by your thinking just about anything can be said to display some sort of WC characteristic. Everything is WC and WC is everything. You shouldnt just say WCK is WCK, you should say WCK is fighting and fighting is WCK

I dont think we gain anything by blurring definitions so much. it does not help understanding.

my definition is not limited, it is precise.

the definition of wing chun is very simple. it is a combination of the mechanics, the technique, and the theory/strategy/tactics

you can do one without the other, but to me that is incomplete.

for example, you can teach anyone the chung choi. the actual movement is pretty easy to do, thats why people say WC is easy to learn. but lets say that person applies the chung choi in a way that does not coincide with the most basic WC principle of loy lau hui sung. Technically that is WC but an important element is lacking, and that part is the most difficult to master

so going on this, you can see why i would think that citing a guillotine and a headlock as an example of sam bai fut and a huen sao is a stretch.


Pacman,

My apologies for thinking you were a Fut Sao guy. Who did you learn from?

I think you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the Sam Bai Fut from Biu Jee form mechanics (at least the way we do it) can be viewed as a an incidental guillotine - not that they are specifically for the use of a guillotine. Also, they can be underhooks, arm lock, come along, bow and wrist lock against lapel grab, double leg take down, single leg takedown, ward off from someone striking above, regaining of balance, throw sand in your eyes, throw bottle in your face, extreme dodge/duck maneuver, throw like osoto gari, hip throw like O Goshi, back throw like ippon seoinage...etc. These are all incidental - mechanics are not techniques, but they can produce a certain technique when executed at a moment in time. And I am not saying these are secret hidden techniques in WCK sets.

If you are going to credit me with the guillotine, please use your mind to understand what I am really saying. Also, don't just limit me to the guillotine.

Yes, I realize my WCK interpretations are more wide than most. But that's just me. If yours is limited, what is the reason?

[chusauli]

Pacman wrote:

your definition of what is and what is not WC is too liberal and esoteric because if you go by your thinking just about anything can be said to display some sort of WC characteristic. Everything is WC and WC is everything. You shouldnt just say WCK is WCK, you should say WCK is fighting and fighting is WCK


I don't think my WCK is too liberal, or esoteric. I do think some people's WCK view is too narrow. And perhaps that is because they have only seen a bit of the art.

To me, WCK has always existed in martial arts. I view it as the functional, simple, direct, economical, transitory motions of martial arts. In other words, what makes martial arts work is WCK.

Not all martial arts are what I describe above. I do not view WCK just as a particular style - I look at it as a training system. I only formulated this view of it after a few decades in the art.

[uki]

all i have to say is that everyone needs to meet dale in person. :)

[bennyvt]

sorry that just sounds like one me those i know more then you so im right. Question is do you teach these as moves. Better tell the bjj guys they stole all our moves.

[m1k3]

sorry that just sounds like one me those i know more then you so im right. Question is do you teach these as moves. Better tell the bjj guys they stole all our moves.

That's ok, we steal from everyone. Judo, Sambo, Wrestling and now Wing Chun. No problem, we're not picky, if it works it ours. :D

[MysteriousPower]

Pacman,

My apologies for thinking you were a Fut Sao guy. Who did you learn from?

I think you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the Sam Bai Fut from Biu Jee form mechanics (at least the way we do it) can be viewed as a an incidental guillotine - not that they are specifically for the use of a guillotine. Also, they can be underhooks, arm lock, come along, bow and wrist lock against lapel grab, double leg take down, single leg takedown, ward off from someone striking above, regaining of balance, throw sand in your eyes, throw bottle in your face, extreme dodge/duck maneuver, throw like osoto gari, hip throw like O Goshi, back throw like ippon seoinage...etc. These are all incidental - mechanics are not techniques, but they can produce a certain technique when executed at a moment in time. And I am not saying these are secret hidden techniques in WCK sets.

If you are going to credit me with the guillotine, please use your mind to understand what I am really saying. Also, don't just limit me to the guillotine.

Yes, I realize my WCK interpretations are more wide than most. But that's just me. If yours is limited, what is the reason?

I must disagree with this. The problem with forms in martial arts is that people attribute moves to them that founders who made up the forms didn't know. This line of thinking basically assumes that anything can be anything. Doing that part of the whatever form is not the same as practicing
a gillutine hundreds of times. Can we stop kidding ourselves? I've seen teachers say that, "this move can be used like this for a throw. Forms are based on principles and not techniques. Now go back to doing your form with the intention of this throw.". That isn't the same as practicing the throw hundreds of times. If I practice talking in the mirror to myself with the intention of getting laid it's not going to happen by me talking to myself.

[chusauli]

I must disagree with this. The problem with forms in martial arts is that people attribute moves to them that founders who made up the forms didn't know. This line of thinking basically assumes that anything can be anything. Doing that part of the whatever form is not the same as practicing
a gillutine hundreds of times. Can we stop kidding ourselves? I've seen teachers say that, "this move can be used like this for a throw. Forms are based on principles and not techniques. Now go back to doing your form with the intention of this throw.". That isn't the same as practicing the throw hundreds of times. If I practice talking in the mirror to myself with the intention of getting laid it's not going to happen by me talking to myself.


That's why I say its mechanics and not the technique.

Some people pick themselves up and have a good time by themselves. LOL!

[uki]

If I practice talking in the mirror to myself with the intention of getting laid it's not going to happen by me talking to myself.all you have to do is look yourself in the eyes and tell yourself "i can do this and get laid - i am not that bad looking of a guy!!" and then gather the courage, find your backbone, and take yourself down to the local watering hole to find yerself a nice lass of a mule to ride. :p

[Lucas]

"nice lass of a mule to ride"

have i ever told you how classy you are uki?

:p

[uki]

have i ever told you how classy you are uki?must come from having a classic mindset... and no you have not, until now. :D

[Lucas]

:D

keep up the good work lol

[SavvySavage]

Has anyone sparred with someone claiming skill in iron body? If so was it any different than sparring with people who haven't trained in those arts? Did a good shot to the body take them down? I have only seen it demonstrated statically but never witha moving hitting opponent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Has anyone sparred with someone claiming skill in iron body? If so was it any different than sparring with people who haven't trained in those arts? Did a good shot to the body take them down? I have only seen it demonstrated statically but never witha moving hitting opponent.

I have sparred with 2 guys that have done IB training, BUT they do it in a dynamic fashion, they do it within the context of sparring.
I have also sparred with some "old school" Okinawan karate guys that do the body toughening skills, but again, they do it within the context of sparring.
Now, what does that mean?
It means that they not ONLY do the typical IB training, but they fight hard contact to get used to getting hit while fighting so it is not a "state dependent" IB skill.
I have never sparred anyone that "just" does "static" IB.

[m1k3]

I have sparred with 2 guys that have done IB training, BUT they do it in a dynamic fashion, they do it within the context of sparring.
I have also sparred with some "old school" Okinawan karate guys that do the body toughening skills, but again, they do it within the context of sparring.
Now, what does that mean?
It means that they not ONLY do the typical IB training, but they fight hard contact to get used to getting hit while fighting so it is not a "state dependent" IB skill.
I have never sparred anyone that "just" does "static" IB.

And did it make any difference in their sparring?

I could be wrong but to me I don't care how much IB you do a left hook to the liver is a nasty shot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And did it make any difference in their sparring?

I could be wrong but to me I don't care how much IB you do a left hook to the liver is a nasty shot.

Oh yeah, in the places where one CAN develop IB, it makes a difference.
Of course there are ways around IB training too, so...

They were more aggressive and more confident.
Of course the same can be said for anyone that has done the other types like in MT and such.

[m1k3]

Oh yeah, in the places where one CAN develop IB, it makes a difference.
Of course there are ways around IB training too, so...

They were more aggressive and more confident.
Of course the same can be said for anyone that has done the other types like in MT and such.

Thanks, good answer and kind of what I thought. It seems like it would be similar to the core conditioning that boxers do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks, good answer and kind of what I thought. It seems like it would be similar to the core conditioning that boxers do.

I think that IB training CAN be better in the sense that it is better in the long run.
The more "internal" aspects that are done BEFORE the more external ones make it less "damaging" compared to the typical conditioning that fighters use.
Know what I mean?

[bennyvt]

i do the iron palm stuff. I asked my teacher who had learnt it in other styles. He said the main thing was like our rock bag. To stop flinchin and to always use all your force. I know with both when i first started i slowed at the end as i was sacred of breaking something. Now i just hit as hard as i can.