prove me wrong...

[Wongsifu]

okay now that i got you to look, i want you to prove me wrong in this statement.

To be a good standup fighter in kung fu , you need

1 power and speed (power being internal or external)
or
2 speed with extreemly precise strikes to points to disable your oponent , ie pressure point strikes. Or against a much less worthy opponent, strikes to the groin knee cap etc...
3 speed and execively hard weapons , ie hard shins forearms and fists.

with the exception of tai ji and some of the more chin na orientated martial arts, and things like iron body. I believe

these three statements are the end all and be all of kung fu (fighting wise).

Take bagua and hung gar , remove the internal power from bagua and hung gar , and the system is destroyed, you will run circles round your opponent without diong damage, in hung gar you will hit hard but it wont be hard !!

take wing chun , remove the precise striking and hard hands , and the system relies on speed for power , which doesnt work... speed alone is empty. Imagine a polystyrene car crashing into you , compared to a truck.

The way i see this is the reason most people dont get anywhere with kung fu as they miss out power because the training is too strenuous (weight lifting) or too boring (chi kung) and they believe that speed is enough even though they dont know how to hit a pressure point whilst the oppoent is standing still let alone running around.

I want to hear your opinions.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[JWTAYLOR]

Reminds me of an old quote from Wyatt Erp. "Speed is good, but acuracy if final."

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Water Dragon]

This is not an exception to Taiji. If all you do is yield, you're gonna get yourclock cleaned.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Wongsifu]

good point water dragon

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[Daredevil]

I agree totally with the principles you outline.

Exact nature of power, hardening, etc will vary from style to style, though, but on the whole, I think you're entirely correct.

Now, if people would realize this (not just think they understand it) they'd achieve a good level of kungfu in their practise.

[ewallace]

I would have to disagree with the system would be "destroyed" relating to Bagau. I am by all means very new to Bagua, but so much of it has to do with position and angle, that there are many devastating moves that do not require much internal power to be effective. But, by taking the internal away from Bagua it would indeed be nowhere near as effective.

Victory goes to he who makes the next-to-last mistake.

[Water Dragon]

#1 requirement = big ballz

Most of the Kung Fu guys I ran into were wussies. You wouldn't believe the times I've plowed through people who were technically light years ahead of me. It was more or less due to one thing. I was willing to go all out after them. They were too afraid of being hit to come after me. If these same guys would come at me without the fear, they would slaughter me.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Shaolin36]

Courage is definately a factor. I think it takes speed,power and accuracy- one can be comprimised but one of the others must step up to compensate for the weeknesses. This is an obvious ansmer but very true. I could get hit all day by someone with no power and only need to land one or two crushing blows to end the confrontation, likewise

If someone is very powerful but very slow was trying to attack me-blocking and dodgin would be very easy-so hitting them would be easier.

In my opinion it takes all three. Maybe accuracy could be compromised due to the fact if your powerful and fast-you could probably mow them down still.

Shaolin

[Merryprankster]

#2 requirement: A good chin. One punch is all it takes if you have a glass jaw.

#3 requirement: Being in very good shape. Try handling an adrenaline dump if you aren't.

[Jaguar Wong]

Merryprankster, I've always wondered if the jaw is as important as the neck when it comes to someone's "chin". I've seen some thick neck guys take some shots and never go down (like Butterbean :)), but I wondered if it was because of the strength of their jaw, or neck.

I feel that wongsifu is talking about the physical/technical aspect of an effective striker, so opening the "mental factor" can of worms may be straying off topic. Then again, maybe not. If you're too afraid to get inside your opponent's defense to deliver the strikes that you've trained so long to execute properly then that won't do you any good. The problem is that people are afraid to get inside the range of their opponent's strikes. They have to remember if they're in range, so is the opponent (yes even if the guys has a couple of inches of reach on you, unless he's got like 10-12 inches on you :))

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[Merryprankster]

They do say that a thicker neck means you can take more of a beating.

Maybe it has something to do with how much you head gets knocked around? I dunno

[ewallace]

You must also be willing to accept the fact that you will almost always get hit during a street fight. On the street, your M/A will not look pretty, you will not look like Van Damme or Segal. It's dirty, uncontrolled and you must be able to think through your fear. Many practicioners, no matter the style, are not very resourceful(SP?). A brick wall can be a very effective weapon, yet most would see it as a limitation and be forced not to use a certain technique because of space requirements. Another thing is the pain factor if you have never been hit For Real, especially in the face. It really only stuns you during the encounter (a direct shot to the nose is like a big "bang"). When the adrenaline goes away, then it starts to hurt a little. I had my nose broken in a fight and really did not know it was broke for about two more hours. I just thought it was a good shot even though the blood flow was tremendous.

My mindset = Win now...hurt later.

Victory goes to he who makes the next-to-last mistake.

[Jaguar Wong]

Yeah, I was wondering because I read an issue of Sport Illustrated way back when Tyson was on top of the world that illustrated the aspects of a KO in boxing, from a medical perspective. Taking a shot on the side of the jaw generally whipped the head to one side, but when the head stopped, the brain keeps going. I think it mentioned something about severing numerous capilaries that sure didn't help, causing the guy to suffer a loss of oxygen to the brain.

I think there was something about the uppercut as well. I'm not sure, but I think they mentioned the head whipping back, and pinching nerves in the neck, causing the KO. I wonder if I can find that somewhere. Anyway, I thought the thick neck meant the head didn't go anywhere it didn't want to, unless a HUGE amount of force was applied

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[CD Lee]

I agree with most, but I think that applies to boxing, and most other forms too.

Show me a boxer without speed and power. What do you have? Me :D

I know from boxing, just because there is alot of it, that KO power comes not only from hard hits, but from UNEXPECTED hits. Quick short sharp punchers are great KO artists because the opponent cannot prepare well for the shot.

In kung fu and other arts, I think accuracy can be imprtant to a point. If you can get a solid blow to the head, you are doing great. IF you can daze the opponent temporarily, then you can get more precise on a follow-up attack.

I think what is missing here are these requirements to be truly effictive:

4. Flowing from one technique to another. One shot probably will not do it on anybody who can take a good shot.

5. Ability to take a shot and stay focused on the fight, and continue the attack in a controlled manner. Boxers EXPECT to get a hit in the face. It is generally not a big problem to them when they take five or ten shots, as long as they do not get truly hurt. They don't go bezerk they keep focused on the fight

[Merryprankster]

That would make sense: A muscle's strength is directly proportional to it's cross-sectional area, not to mention the added advantage of having a "less" whippy neck.

But at least now it's obvious that the gloves don't protect the head since it's blunt shock that makes the brain rattle :)

[Jaguar Wong]

CD Lee,
The mental aspects that you've mentioned seem to be the common thought. You can't fear getting hit, because it affects the way you employ your strikes. avoiding taking any damage becomes your number one priority, so you're basically on the defensive, which most people will tell you doesn't always work.

As for the flow. Great point. The reliance on the one shot - one kill that many McDojo/McKwoon martial artists are deluding themselves with is just going to hurt their actual technical skill. If one strike lands, then the next has a better chance to hit a more favorable target.

Merryprankster,
I've got a "whippy" neck :) I guess that spells "Glass Jaw" for the ol' Jaguar. My neck is part of my weak upper body which really limits my effectiveness on the inside.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[Merryprankster]

For a weak upper body, try pummeling in the clinch. Get somebody who's good at it and learn to pummel, both like a wrestler and like a Muay Thai guy.

You won't be weak for long. But you won't be able to move your head for a few days after the first time you do this. Be gradual :)

[thumper]

what about footwork? i think that is one of the main ingredients too.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[LEGEND]

Is weight training a big factor in standup striking??? I mean weight training will increase your strength and your bulk but I don't think it's necessary for striking ability. Although the bigger u are...the harder you hit is TRUE. But I think technique, exceptional footwork is a must! I understand boxers and thai boxers work on body weight exercises more than weight training. To maintain the cardio. The rest is on sparring and other related striking drills. Speed may not be too necessary...guys like PEDRO RIZZO rely more on accuracy than speed although it's a PLUS!!! However to be a good striker in the realm of street fighting please add the ANTI TAKEDOWN abilities...1.) sprawling tactics 2.) cross face 3.) wiz tactics from freestyle wreslting! Understanding ANTI TAKEDOWN tactics and knowing when and how to use them will help u defeat the varsity HS or College grapplers.

A

[shinwa]

You forgot intelligence, reflexes, and proper form. Proper form is partially where the power and speed come from. Proper form also allows for good follow ups/combinations. And there are a crapload of other things that are important too.

[CD Lee]

Legend:

A big no to weight training and striking ability and power. Mass X Speed = POWER. Now...muscles are good, and they are mass. But the MECHANISM is what is important to deliver the goods. More muscle helps some, but very little without a delivery mechanism.

It has a LOT more to do with muscular coordination than adding muscle mass. What we have is a muti-faceted combination of linear and angular motion at a given speed. This scientific fact is evident in almost every sport. Skinny kids can serve tennis balls over a hundred miles per hour that weigh 125-140LBS. A muscular 250 lb. man would have a lot of trouble duplicating that feat trust me. Same thing is baseball batting theory. Same in golf. Same thing in boxers that have incredible KO power, vs guys that are very muscular but cannot hit as hard.

It is said in tennis, which I am pretty heavy into, that most of the power comes from the ground. It all sounds like kung fu now to me, but that is what I was taught by everybody. The stance is the foundation of all power in tennis, and force is applied from the ground into the angular and linear motion of the body into and through that little ball. And done right, a person can hit a tennis ball harder than you can possibly imagine and still keep it in the court. Now, it takes YEARS to learn how to coordinate those motions into power, but when you get it, it is incredible. I spent three days at the US Open this year in NY. I cannot describe the power these poeple could put into the balls using the same looking strokes the we weekend guys use. The difference is in their timing and mechanics, however suble they may be. They make every bit of difference. I don't need Kung Fu to tell me how sublties and timing create power. Sports science will show the same things.

Now, one last statement:
Once a person has the proper mechanics, more muscles make more power.

[popsider]

"take wing chun , remove the precise striking and hard hands , and the system relies on speed for power , which doesnt work..."

Wing chun doesn't rely on speed and accuracy for power, what about structure and proper mechanics?

In fact I don't think accuracy and hard hands have anything to do with power - more to do with hurting the other person and not being hurt yourself which are not the same.

"The way i see this is the reason most people dont get anywhere with kung fu as they miss out power because the training is too strenuous (weight lifting) or too boring (chi kung) and they believe that speed is enough even though they dont know how to hit a pressure point whilst the oppoent is standing still let alone running around."

I'm told WSL wouldn't even do press ups let alone lift weights (I don't think he went big on the idea of chi either). The point I'm making is not that weights are bad for good kung fu (I do a little myself) - it is that they are not necessary.

[gazza99]

Wongsifu:Great thread!
The following are just the most obvious flaws I see in your post.

1."remove the internal power from bagua and hung gar , and the system is destroyed," First off, I was not aware hung gar was an internal art at all. Wait....nope its not. Also the structure and speed of bagua=power without lifting weights. Not to mention bagua utilizes pressure points very well.

2."The way i see this is the reason most people dont get anywhere with kung fu as they miss out power because the training is too strenuous (weight lifting)"

Weight lifting, while of course would increase power is NOT the main factor that determines a persons striking power. One of my students for example is a personal trainer, he can bench almost 500 pounds, I cannot bench even near half that, yet I can at least punch twice as hard as he can. Of course I am patient enough for qi-gong so perhaps your point is valid in that manner.

Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Braden]

Don't forget also that, although it's wonderful to have alot of raw power in your strikes, you really make them effective by setting them up properly.

[Wongsifu]

phew too many good posts , gary since i was generalising i meant that take out the internal power from hung gar , i.e the internal power generated from standing in horse stance and practising tit sam kuen , the iron body form.

Also i personally believe weight lifting will increase punching power , obviously maybe not for a bagua or tai ji practitioner , but for an external martial artist it is needed in one form or another wether its pushups or weights or walking around with bricks, i belive it will help.

However on a general note i noticed that people said big ballz are important so as not to be afraid to get hit you will step in more.

Could we say that throughout the thread the old saying
Yi dan er li san gong fu is true..

this means firstly yuo must have courage 2ndly power and 3rdly kung fu ???

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[MIKSANSOO]

how about timing!

"you can take my life, but not my confidence"
Jimmy H. Woo

[Wongsifu]

jeez make me look stupid , i never thought about timing , i guess its because its a basic prerequisite for me , kinda like footwork, you know you have to have it its like saying you need to have the use of your two hands and a mouth to eat properly ... hmm but its definately needed

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[chokeyouout2]

To be a fighter you have to fight I believe.Beware of the speculator.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[honorisc]

"To be a good standup fighter in kung fu , you need

1 power and speed (power being internal or external)
or"

If you could get to a right place at a significant moment, this would be more important that power and speed. Although it would be coupled with something else or other things once you got there, placement, in different instances by a good stand-up fighter in Kung-Fu Can be done with And Without power and speed.

"2 speed with extreemly precise strikes to points to disable your oponent , ie pressure point strikes. Or against a much less worthy opponent, strikes to the groin knee cap etc..."

Although there are narcotics and alcohol and chemicals and the such to raise the pain thresh hold including adrenalin~ not most of the fights for everyone would be with drug inhanced nor influenced people so don't bring them up where we're talking in general.

Pain can change the mind of someone who thinks that they would like to fight. So accuracy for pressurepoints striknig is not necessary; nice, but Not necessary to be a good stand-up fighter in Kung-Fu.

"3 speed and execively hard weapons , ie hard" shins forearms and fists."

Hard weapons implies trained to a point of harderness here I think-ish. Relavant to that, the body does have Naturally hard weapons, which do not require training to inflict signignificantness when propperly applied to appropriate places.

As an aside~ please tell me some non-hard weapons of the Human body.

I hope I proved you wrong. But not that there is no ground Kung-Fu fighter. There is no Stand-up Kung-Fu fighter (this would imply that there was another kind of Kung-Fu fighter than Stand-up). There is the Kung-Fu fighter who utilizes what that one Knows~ from what they understand of their training and learned about their Art and themselves from their Practice. Whatever the situation, the good Kung-Fu figher adapts.

A Kung-Fu figher trains with the awareness that They don't know (hence the Humility; Arrogance will get you someone who wants to show you that you Don't know). They go on Humbly becomming great and broadening their awarenesses. At least some realize that once they show what they know~ they show what they don't know. This makes them vulnerable. Someone who now knows how they fight can go ththem and night not be able to change their rhythm (possible Star Trek™ transation~ They have our shield modulation frequencies and we can't stop this next attack...). It would be less likely to come-up against someone who knows your rhythms before you start if you don't show what you know~

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Wongsifu]

no know .. dude !!! i lost you there is that crack i smell , nah man im just kidding , i lost you somewhere but i think its because im tired

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[gazza99]

"gary since i was generalising i meant that take out the internal power from hung gar"..

I understand what you are saying, but taking the internal from hung-gar seems a bit like taking the needle out of the haystack-doesnt really matter much. :D *shrug* (but this could be/has been a whole other thread!!)

Of course big balz..or intent is essential.


Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[honorisc]

I put what you said then put how it's not required for a good stand-up fighter in kung fu.

Then I put a perspective on the term stand-up fighter in kung fu.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.