Should Warrior Monks Disrobe?

[shaolinpowered]

The subject of "real and fake" monks has been covered in various articles in KungfuTaichi magazine. In the latest Shaolin issue there is an article by Gene Ching titled: "Should Warrior Monks Disrobe?", in which Venerable Heng Sure and Dr. Verhoeven try to clarify the mist once again. I believe that is up to us, practicioners of the art, to educate ourselves in order to avoid getting "burned". Reading this article reminded me of another splendid piece on the subject which I recommend to everyone.
The article is titled "Shaolin Monasticism & Discipleship" and can be found on www.shaolinchancity.blogspot.com

Omituofo!

Shaolin Monastiscism & Discipleship
http://shaolinchancity.blogspot.com/2008/12/shaolin-monasticism-discipleship_944.html

[GeneChing]

Because if it is, that's really funny. ;)

This article is in our new Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56633) and yes, we've grappled with this question many times. I covered most of the points listed in the article shaolinpowered posted above in our 2004 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=500) cover story - Real versus Fake: Shaolin Monk Shi Decheng on What Makes a Monk (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=501). That's with my personal master, Decheng. I've updated that in other writings, mostly adding the concept of the biaoyanseng. I'm taking the discussion in a new direction with Should Warrior Monks Disrobe? Shaolin is an anomaly in the Buddhist monastic tradition. With this piece, I'm searching for a parallel to the wuseng in Chan.

BTW, to give this article some context, you should read my previous work with Venerable Heng Sure and Dr. Verhoeven - The First Shaolin Monk in America: Hai Deng, the One-Finger Handstand Master (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=730) from our Shaolin Special 2007 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729).

I have the complete interview for Venerable Heng Sure and Dr. Verhoeven. As promised, we will be posting that sometime between now and the end of May. :cool:

[TenTigers]

I think the hot, female monks, er, nuns, should definately disrobe....
(where's Sanjuro with a pic?)

[shaolinpowered]

Because if it is, that's really funny. ;)

This article is in our new Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56633) and yes, we've grappled with this question many times. I covered most of the points listed in the article shaolinpowered posted above in our 2004 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=500) cover story - Real versus Fake: Shaolin Monk Shi Decheng on What Makes a Monk (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=501). That's with my personal master, Decheng. I've updated that in other writings, mostly adding the concept of the biaoyanseng. I'm taking the discussion in a new direction with Should Warrior Monks Disrobe? Shaolin is an anomaly in the Buddhist monastic tradition. With this piece, I'm searching for a parallel to the wuseng in Chan.

BTW, to give this article some context, you should read my previous work with Venerable Heng Sure and Dr. Verhoeven - The First Shaolin Monk in America: Hai Deng, the One-Finger Handstand Master (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=730) from our Shaolin Special 2007 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729).

I have the complete interview for Venerable Heng Sure and Dr. Verhoeven. As promised, we will be posting that sometime between now and the end of May. :cool:


The fun was unintended :)

I did read your article in the 2004 Shaolin Issue, which I thought was very good!
I also talked about this with the writer of the shaolinchancity blog and my question was why do people make such a point of monks being fake or not? I am not saying they should not but there are other martial arts rooted in Chan, Karate for example, but I never heard someone question a Karate teacher for his involvement or non-involvement in Chan (zen). They just teach the art and everybody seems to be happy with that. From the surface it would appear that the art and Chan were disconnected long time ago and putting on a karate uniform does not evoke any feeling toward Chan, at least not right away. But Shaolin is different.
Shaolin kungfu cannot be seen apart from the Temple, thus Chan. I wonder if it will be a matter time before it will be the same as Karate. Personally I hope not, because Karate too was intended as a training for mind and body of finding the Way through practising.

Going to read the 2007 Shaolin special.

Omituofo!

[richard sloan]

Because if it is, that's really funny. ;)

BTW, to give this article some context, you should read my previous work with Venerable Heng Sure and Dr. Verhoeven - The First Shaolin Monk in America: Hai Deng, the One-Finger Handstand Master (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=730) from our Shaolin Special 2007 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=729).

I have the complete interview for Venerable Heng Sure and Dr. Verhoeven. As promised, we will be posting that sometime between now and the end of May. :cool:

I always loved that article. Very inspiring. Love the filthy tracks stuff, and it got me started doing planks. Also love the one punch bit. Looking forward to when our one punch stuff hits the airwaves.

[GeneChing]

It's like the other edge of the sword from filthy tracks. ;) I'll be eager to get your reaction.

[TaichiMantis]

I think it's about time we all see what's under those robes!!!:D

[richard sloan]

to be honest brother, I don't think I will really care too too much about what they have to say.

i just do what i do and how i do it contents me. i fulfill my vows and that is all that i can really do. so long as that helps others i remain content.

[GeneChing]

For isn't caring an implicit part of your vows? Even if you disagree, you should care. ;)

It's the end of May. Time to post that promised interview transcript.

Exclusive to KungFuMagazine.com: Transcript of the interview with Reverend Heng Sure and Dr. Martin Verhoeven (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=900)
Held at the Berkeley Buddhist Monastery, January 21, 2010

[Chan Quan]

For isn't caring an implicit part of your vows? Even if you disagree, you should care. ;)

It's the end of May. Time to post that promised interview transcript.

Exclusive to KungFuMagazine.com: Transcript of the interview with Reverend Heng Sure and Dr. Martin Verhoeven (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=900)
Held at the Berkeley Buddhist Monastery, January 21, 2010

Thank you for this article. I've been to many Buddhist temples and many libraries to determine what it means to be a "Shaolin monk" and how a philosophy relating to nonviolence views the phenomenon of martial arts.

I've just ordered the Shaolin Monastery book by Shahar, but is there anywhere else but China where Buddhism and martial arts are so thoroughly entwined? Japan perhaps? There are many Ch'an monks who know nothing of kung fu and would never even dream of it. Do Zen masters look at Karateka as thugs or as meditators in motion?

[Scott R. Brown]

Thank you for this article. I've been to many Buddhist temples and many libraries to determine what it means to be a "Shaolin monk" and how a philosophy relating to nonviolence views the phenomenon of martial arts.

I've just ordered the Shaolin Monastery book by Shahar, but is there anywhere else but China where Buddhism and martial arts are so thoroughly entwined? Japan perhaps? There are many Ch'an monks who know nothing of kung fu and would never even dream of it. Do Zen masters look at Karateka as thugs or as meditators in motion?

I recommend reading:

Buddhist Warfare

Edited by michael jerryson and mark juergensmeyer

It is 270 pages of the history of Buddhist violence and how it is justified!

[GeneChing]

Shaolin Trips (http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Trips-Gene-Ching/dp/1424308976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277223702&sr=8-1) by me. I'm Buddhist and a Shaolin practitioner. And by Buddhist, I mean I've taken Buddhist vows outside of Shaolin and studied elsewhere. I've done half the Buddhist pilgrimage in India. A goodly portion of my book discusses my personal reconciliation between martial arts and non-violence. I'm vegetarian (well, pescatarian sometimes, in moments of weak discipline) and consider myself a practicing Buddhist. I even write 'Buddhist' on all my government forms. ;)

As for other warrior Buddhist monks, there are some. They are called Sohei in Japanese - 僧兵 - these are the same characters as sengbing (literally 'monk soldier') which is bandied about in Shaolin circles. But there are warrior monks in other cultures too. The classic stereotype might be Friar Tuck of Robin Hood, but you could consider the Crusaders a form of Christian warrior monk. Religious wars are frightfully common. Another title you could look at which is more along this train of thought is Zen at War (http://www.amazon.com/Zen-at-War-Daizen-Victoria/dp/0834804050) by Brian Daizen Victoria. That's a dark one, however.

[wenshu]

Zen and the Way of the Sword is a decent analysis of Samurai zen practice.

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Way-Sword-Arming-Samurai/dp/0195092619

As for the crusades; The Knights Templar were christian warrior monks protecting pilgrims on their way to the Holy Land.

Even though it is fiction I recommend Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco for a good overview of the Knights Templar and their associated myths.

The life of a renunciant lends itself particularly well to the hardship of pugilism.

[Scott R. Brown]

If nothing else, violence can be justified if it reduces greater violence as in preventing the Nazi's from exterminating whole populations.

Pacifism, meditation and prayer are noble practices, however in the history of man they have not prevented the slaughter of millions of innocents. Unfortunately, only violence overcomes violence 99.9999999999999% of the time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

BAH !!
RC Nuns for the win !
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/6/25/633815076998881685-NAUGHTYNUN.jpg

[TenTigers]

wow, that's all yo could come up with?
(TT is tactfully utilizing child psychology to lure Sanjuro into posting as many sexy nun pics as he can..heh-heh-heh. He will never suspect this, because of the subtle methods TT uses.)




(TT is also speaking in the third person...another clever tact....or something)

[sanjuro_ronin]

wow, that's all yo could come up with?
(TT is tactfully utilizing child psychology to lure Sanjuro into posting as many sexy nun pics as he can..heh-heh-heh. He will never suspect this, because of the subtle methods TT uses.)




(TT is also speaking in the third person...another clever tact....or something)

Don't know why, but I feel compelled to post more pics...
http://www.nerve.com/files/scanner/2009/07/naughty-nun.jpg

[chusauli]

I read the article in the recent magazine on "Should Warrior Monks Disrobe?" - the article featured two of the late Master Hsuan Hua's disciples and very qualified to comment.

Wu Seng are probably not real monks - some may have received the 3 refuges, and the 5 precepts, and basically, they are laymen in robes and putting on a show that they are monks. Especially by drinking and eating meat, as well as being married, they show they are not monks in deed.

Much of this is to sell their Shaolin Wushu.

[LFJ]

Wu Seng are probably not real monks - some may have received the 3 refuges, and the 5 precepts, and basically, they are laymen in robes and putting on a show that they are monks.

by "real monks" i assume you mean fully ordained heshang, by that definition wuseng definitely arent and need not take more precepts.

rather than them "putting on a show that they are monks", the problem is people make a lot of assumptions and dont really study shaolin culture.


Especially by drinking and eating meat, as well as being married, they show they are not monks in deed.

they shouldnt be expected not to, since they dont necessarily take any such precepts.


Much of this is to sell their Shaolin Wushu.

the class of wuseng in shaolin has been around for centuries (recently revived, previously sengbing- monk soldiers), longer than the local shaolin school has been on the block "selling their shaolin wushu".

its a matter of history and tradition that few bother to research and attempt to understand.

if any act like monks, when they are not, its the biaoyanseng- performance monks. but in this case its their job to act like monks. :)

shaolin worldwide seems to have had another class of monks for some time now, jiaheshang- fake monks! which country does not have someone claiming to be shaolin monks/disciples now?

[GeneChing]

...but I don't claim to be a monk by any means. The problem lies in the jiaheshang, but that can be broadly defined. To some, it's just those who denigrate Shaolin by posing as monks but not acting like monks. This gets to be really sticky when you examine the wuseng as there is a longstanding tradition. However, when wuseng are out drinking, cavorting with women, etc., well, there's a longstanding tradition of criticism of that sort of behavior too. It's a uniquely Shaolin problem.

[LFJ]

okay, i'll make a new term to clarify, zicheng heshang, self-proclaimed monks (having no basis for their declaration). :)

[Scott R. Brown]

While such discussions are interesting, each person is responsible for themselves and to nitpick the behavior of others is to forget that the action taking place within our own minds is what we are responsible for NOT the actions of others.

When Master Yuan was walking down a street of butchers a monk with him was astonished and said to him, "Don't you see the butchers!" Master Yuan replied, "Indeed I do, however you are 'seeing on top of seeing'!"

Good monks, bad monks, pretend monks are all distinctions that bind one to delusive views.

Attending to ourselves is more important than attending to others.

[Chan Quan]

Yes, the Knights Templar are the closest thing I could think of as a western equivalent to the Shaolin monks. You can even make the argument that like the Templars who were wiped out by their benefactors, modern-day "monks" are not what they claim to be.

More importantly, Gene, what does it mean to be a disciple as opposed to a practicing Buddhist? Are there any monks in the U.S. who are also Buddhist monks of the type that can be seen in other Ch'an, Mahayana, or Theravada traditions?

I will purchase a copy of your book this month and immerse myself in the goodness. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The order of the Templar knights was indeed, "wiped out": which means that just changed their name ( the survivors).
The Teutonic Knights in Germany and the Order of Christ in Portugal are but 2 examples.
I would equate them to the Shaolin monks though.
Shaolin Monks were Monks that happened to do some MA, very few of them by the way.
The Templar were warriors that became monks and the order was 100% military.

[GeneChing]

As disciple vows, the difference is the martial angle. Becoming a disciple is common in the martial arts outside of Buddhist traditions. It's a Confucian thing, deeply embedded in Chinese culture. Anyone can become a disciple. You just need to find a master to agree. So many martial artists have become disciples of wuseng strictly on a martial level. For example, I know a Shaolin disciple that is Christian, and only took vows under his Shaolin master for the martial arts. At my disciple ceremony, we did bows to Guanyin, but it was clearly stated that we were taking vows under Shi Decheng to be martial disciples, not Buddhist disciples. Of course, as the vows are taken in Chinese, many disciples don't really know what they are saying, which is kind of ironic, so they misinterpret their disciple vows as taking Buddhist refuge. This adds to the confusion. I took my Buddhist vows separately at Green Dragon Temple here in California.

As for Buddhist monks in America, there are scores of them in every tradition of Buddhism. We're the great American melting pot after all. If you mean that specific to Shaolin monks, there are a few. One of the monks that I am currently training under says he keeps his vows of abstinence and remains robed. I'm just getting to know him, so I can't validate that as of yet. There are others. It's sort of case by case, as many have officially disrobed (like the other former monk I train under). Others continue to don robes but have given up their vows. That happens at Shaolin too, not just in America.

I hope you enjoy my book (http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Trips-Gene-Ching/dp/1424308976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276188031&sr=1-1). ;)

[chusauli]

Wuseng might be a Shaolin tradition when it was necessary to have a small army protect the temple and its possessions/land. That has been outdated, especially in today's China.

In today's society, it makes for confusion.

If they are a monk, a real Heseng, they undergo the vows and maintain the precepts.

No meat eating, no alcohol, no women, no exceptions, even if Emperor Li Shi Min proclaimed meat and alcohol to celebrate. The 3 refuges are followed more than the Emperor's proclamation.

The bald head, wearing of robes, all lead to confusion.

And today so many people play dress up with the monk's robes for $69.99 plus socks, tax and shipping.

They should wear layman robes and precept sash, not those of a monastic. Its very simple.

[RenDaHai]

When talking with my Masters here the terms Wuseng and Hesheng are not so important.

We say 'ChujiaRen' which means someone who has left home. They are the only ones who get a measure of respect on principle. They have given up aspects of their life before, and follow principles of altruism, and asceticism. They don't need the things you and I need. These are the real 'monks'.

I don't think any of the ones living outside shaolin can call themselves shaolin wuseng. They could get away with saying they are ex monks I suppose....

But even within Shaolin, 'Chujiaren' are very few.