Would you consider this to be valid? Serious question.

[m1k3]

OK, this was posted on another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKML3jfwDA

I am curious about what your opinions are on what is being taught here. My WC is from several years ago and I never got further than SLT.

Lets not turn this into linage wars or another shouting match with T and Dale. I would just like to know what the general WC community thinks about something like this.

Thx.

Mike t

[Frost]

OK, this was posted on another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKML3jfwDA

I am curious about what your opinions are on what is being taught here. My WC is from several years ago and I never got further than SLT.

Lets not turn this into linage wars or another shouting match with T and Dale. I would just like to know what the general WC community thinks about something like this.

Thx.

Mike t

F8cking hell is their a time machine around here its like we are back in the 90's:eek:

speaking from a grappling and not wing chun point of view that sucked, i thought this kind of cr*p had stopped being produced in the 90's. The shot was crap to start with, no level change, hands in wrong position, head in the wrong place no forward momentum etc, if the shot was half decent his defence would not even be an option, the arm would be pinned to the side of the body and he would be on his a&s, for f*cks sake before trying to show a defence to something how about actually learning the attack first:rolleyes:

And LMAO at stopping someones forward momentum by raising your arm in a relaxed strike...thanks for the laugh:D

[LoneTiger108]

OK, this was posted on another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKML3jfwDA

I am curious about what your opinions are on what is being taught here. My WC is from several years ago and I never got further than SLT.

Lets not turn this into linage wars or another shouting match with T and Dale. I would just like to know what the general WC community thinks about something like this.

Thx.

Mike t

I've seen a few clips now of Sifu Psaila online and can sort of see his influences and understand why what he does seems to work on film, for him, with his own students. From Jim Fung/Chu Song Tin?

Chu Song Tin was an 'internal' guy from what I understand, and much of what is shown on this clip would be 100% reliant on being able to root and disperse that hei gung IMHO! Something I'm sure his students can tell you he does well.

The simple fact of asking a WC student to 'mimic' other arts without the training is a silly idea too IMO and only begs people to criticize from that start point onwards.

Funny thing is, I've never seen a BJJ guy show valid takedowns against a student 'mimicking' Wing Chun, so why should we, as Sifus, even entertain the idea in the first place in our own halls? :(

Nice idea though: Wing Chun Diaries for Youtube!

[Knifefighter]

I've seen a few clips now of Sifu Psaila online and can sort of see his influences and understand why what he does seems to work on film, for him, with his own students. From Jim Fung/Chu Song Tin?

Chu Song Tin was an 'internal' guy from what I understand, and much of what is shown on this clip would be 100% reliant on being able to root and disperse that hei gung IMHO! Something I'm sure his students can tell you he does well.

The simple fact of asking a WC student to 'mimic' other arts without the training is a silly idea too IMO and only begs people to criticize from that start point onwards.

Funny thing is, I've never seen a BJJ guy show valid takedowns against a student 'mimicking' Wing Chun, so why should we, as Sifus, even entertain the idea in the first place in our own halls? :(

Nice idea though: Wing Chun Diaries for Youtube!

Nobody in that clip knew the first thing about takedowns or countering them.

[m1k3]

Where are the WC people especially the instructors?

With the exception of one person none of them have any opinion on this?

I guess it looks OK to them. :confused:

[Knifefighter]

Where are the WC people especially the instructors?

With the exception of one person none of them have any opinion on this?

I guess it looks OK to them. :confused:

Why would you ask WC instructors about takedowns and their defense? WC doesn't cover these things. That's like asking a wrestler about performing proper punching techniques.

[HumbleWCGuy]

OK, this was posted on another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKML3jfwDA

I am curious about what your opinions are on what is being taught here. My WC is from several years ago and I never got further than SLT.

Lets not turn this into linage wars or another shouting match with T and Dale. I would just like to know what the general WC community thinks about something like this.

Thx.

Mike t
complete crap on all accounts. Although, I will say that back when I learned in the 80's we focused more on football style tackle defense which is a bit different than the wrestling take downs. I still teach tackle defense as it still comes up and aspects of it still apply to stopping the wrestling takedowns. If the techniques to defend were being taught seemed sound, I would not be too up in arms about a crappy double leg or what because IMO "shot" is a pretty generic term which could apply to several takedowns.

[Knifefighter]

complete crap on all accounts. Although, I will say that back when I learned in the 80's we focused more on football style tackle defense which is a bit different than the wrestling take downs. I still teach that defense as it still comes up and aspects of it still apply to stopping the wrestling takedowns. If the techniques to defend were being taught seemed sound, I would not be too up in arms about a crappy double leg or what because IMO "shot" is a pretty generic term which could apply to several takedowns.

You teach the defense shown in that clip?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Where are the WC people especially the instructors?

With the exception of one person none of them have any opinion on this?

I guess it looks OK to them. :confused:

***THERE'S nothing in that vid that would stop a good shoot takedown.

[m1k3]

Why would you ask WC instructors about takedowns and their defense? WC doesn't cover these things. That's like asking a wrestler about performing proper punching techniques.

Sorry, but this is being taught as part of a Wing Chun curriculum. What you are saying is valid but I would like to hear that from one or more of the WC instructors. Or if they think this type of training is valid from a WC point of view then I would be interested in what they have to say about that also.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You teach the defense shown in that clip?

No, I do not teach that defense. I was unclear so I will clarify.

The takedown defense was horrible.

The shot wasn't such a big deal, it was just more of a football tackle which we worked against a lot in the 80's. Football tackles still come up so I still teach defense against football tackles as much of it can be used against wrestling takedowns.

[Frost]

No, I do not teach that defense. I was unclear so I will clarify.

The takedown defense was horrible.

The shot wasn't such a big deal, it was just more of a football tackle which we worked against a lot in the 80's. Football tackles still come up so I still teach defense against football tackles as much of it can be used against wrestling takedowns.

why not just teach the defense to a good shot? is if you can defend a good shot, then defending a bad tackle is easy. the otherway around is asking for trouble

[HumbleWCGuy]

why not just teach the defense to a good shot? is if you can defend a good shot, then defending a bad tackle is easy. the otherway around is asking for trouble

I do, but I think that it is important to be aware of the subtle differences in the ways that the pressure can come and explore subtle differences of how you can react to tackles versus legitimate wrestling take-downs versus maniac charges. Certainly one can take a one size fits all approach to takedown defense but that isn't mine.

[Knifefighter]

I do, but I think that it is important to be aware of the subtle differences in the ways that the pressure can come and explore subtle differences of how you can react to tackles versus legitimate wrestling take-downs versus maniac charges. Certainly one can take a one size fits all approach to takedown defense but that isn't mine.

So, what are the differences in the attacks and their defenses?

[SAAMAG]

Eeeeeehhhhh No.

The principle of using relaxed internal energy directly to the spine is where he's getting this from. In theory--sure! In application--not so much.

I really like the part where he says "it only works if you're relaxed" as if to imply that failure of the technique was because you were rigid. Failure of the technique is due to its fundamental flaw of not training against someone who's really trying to take you down. Notice he didn't demonstrate THAT. That technique wouldn't stop a bad takedown attempt...which is good...because then they would drop that technique and find something that did work consistently better.

That's an example of being bound by wing chun rules to try and find a solution to something that's already in existence but is not assimilated because it's not "wing chun". That's just stupid in my opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Would that defense work on this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8UZ_dMKr4Q&feature=fvst

[HumbleWCGuy]

So, what are the differences in the attacks and their defenses?

Obviously anything that works for a double and single leg will work against a tackle, pivoting and pushing, sprawling, Guillotine, and a weird neck crank throw that I teach all work well. I am sure that you could add more.

Against tackles, there is more of an opportunity to throw the person because the hips aren't under the torso. In the case of tackles, I expect them to apply their Judo as additional options. I emphasize their use of throws that are central to my brand of kung fu of course. Also, the tackle can allow them to just go into some standard kickboxing clinch moves.

[SAAMAG]

Would that defense work on this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8UZ_dMKr4Q&feature=fvst

I fuggin looooove that commercial!!! It's funny as hell. I wish I could do that in my office to a few choice individuals. :D

[anerlich]

THis guy is from Jim Fung / TST's lineage.

I actually train BJJ at an academy in Manly with one of Jim Fung's other chief instructors, Dave O'Donnell.

http://www.wingchun.com.au/the-academy/instructors/chief-instructors/david-odonell

He's a pretty good purple belt and certainly knows about double leg shoots, sprawling and counters.

The guy that the instructor in the clip was working with knew nothing about proper shoots. You shoot like that, you WILL get kneed in the head, elbowed in the occipit, succumb to the bil jee guillotine :p, etc.

I'd want to see this guy put some gloves and elbow pads on and defend successfully against someone with a few years' wrestling experience before I started working this defense.

I think he and Dave ought to get together and work on this.

[shawchemical]

Obviously anything that works for a double and single leg will work against a tackle, pivoting and pushing, sprawling, Guillotine, and a weird neck crank throw that I teach all work well. I am sure that you could add more.

Against tackles, there is more of an opportunity to throw the person because the hips aren't under the torso. In the case of tackles, I expect them to apply their Judo as additional options. I emphasize their use of throws that are central to my brand of kung fu of course. Also, the tackle can allow them to just go into some standard kickboxing clinch moves.

If the guys hips aren't under the torso, it's not a real tackle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i322wY8OH2Q&feature=related
example of great tackling.

Infinitely harder to deal with than a shoot.

[Knifefighter]

If the guys hips aren't under the torso, it's not a real tackle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i322wY8OH2Q&feature=related
example of great tackling.

Infinitely harder to deal with than a shoot.

I doubt a theoretical fantasy non-fighter like you understands the difference between a shot, a football tackle, and a rugby tackle and why they are done differently and why one is not harder to deal with than the other.

[HumbleWCGuy]

If the guys hips aren't under the torso, it's not a real tackle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i322wY8OH2Q&feature=related
example of great tackling.

Infinitely harder to deal with than a shoot.

In the U.S. we are more likely to see American Football style tackles. Rugby tackles like in that video are pretty easy to deal with using standard striking and clinching skills. They are less effective than American football tackle but necessary because of the lack of shoulder padding.

American Football Tackle
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=hhy9bZYOjxU&feature=PlayList&p=7B1F06601E6DC542&playnext_from=PL

[Knifefighter]

In the U.S. we are more likely to see American Football style tackles. Rugby tackles like in that video are pretty easy to deal with using standard striking and clinching skills. They are less effective than American football tackle but necessary because of the lack of shoulder padding.

American Football Tackle
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=hhy9bZYOjxU&feature=PlayList&p=7B1F06601E6DC542&playnext_from=PL

Football tackles are designed for football. They are the best in that environment.

Rugby tackles are designed for rugby. They are the best in that environment.

Wrestling takedowns are designed for non-striking grappling. They are the best in that environment.

MMA takedowns are designed for an environment that includes both striking and grappling. They are the best in that environment.

The environment determines which one is harder to deal with.

[YouKnowWho]

Football tackles are designed for football. They are the best in that environment.
Knifefighter is right. The football tackles or wrestling shooting were not designed to be used in combat. We need to add some safety concern into it to make it work better.

There is a risky way to shoot (football tackles) and there is a safer way to shoot. Most of the punch, elbow, knee, kick, ... work well against the risky way of shooting.

If you opponent touches his leading leg on your leading leg, it will be hard for you to kick or knee him. If your opponent also touches both arms on your arms, it will be hard for you to elbow or punch him. If your opponent shoots in at this moment, his risk will be reduced to the minimum.

Assuming your opponent doesn't have this kind of safety shooting knowledge is not a fair assumption IMO. It's just like someone runs into you and tries to knock your head off, you raise your leg in front of you, your opponent runs into your kick. It only happens on beginners and not on people who understands "entering strategy - how to pass "kicking range", "punching range", and enter "clinching range".

[anerlich]

Rugby tackles like in that video are pretty easy to deal with using standard striking and clinching skills.

That was neither a good shoot nor a good rugby tackle.

[Knifefighter]

That was neither a good shoot nor a good rugby tackle.

LOL... very true. Of course the clueless shaw guys wouldn't know that.

[Frost]

That was neither a good shoot nor a good rugby tackle.

personally i would have liked to see the clip of josh lewsey hitting matt rogers :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhLGpGZcZkI

Not knife is right argueing which is better or stupid they were designed for different enviroments, so istead of learning to deal with them all just learn to defend a good shot from an MMA guy that will cover it all for you

[HumbleWCGuy]

personally i would have liked to see the clip of josh lewsey hitting matt rogers :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhLGpGZcZkI

Not knife is right argueing which is better or stupid they were designed for different enviroments, so istead of learning to deal with them all just learn to defend a good shot from an MMA guy that will cover it all for you

I know that this will be blown out of proportion cause a craps storm but, I am going to say it anyway. I think that it is important to training techniques that always work against "perfection," but I also have had good success in training to capitalize on an opponents mistakes. A few of my favorite clinch entries are based on opponent mistakes. Every style of fighting has built in errors, even MMA why not capitalize? Even good fighters make errors.

I also think that it is important to have those little oddball techniques in your repertoire. For example, JKD guys are notorious for dismissing techniques out of hand, but I have seen people hit techniques on them that wouldn't fly in a lot of circles because of the tunnel vision that jkders possess.

Finally, I think that a system turns into a style when we say, "I am going to stop teaching that technique because I can't make it work or I don't fully understand it."

[grasshopper 2.0]

OK, this was posted on another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKML3jfwDA

I am curious about what your opinions are on what is being taught here. My WC is from several years ago and I never got further than SLT.

Lets not turn this into linage wars or another shouting match with T and Dale. I would just like to know what the general WC community thinks about something like this.

Thx.

Mike t

unforunately i could only watch it with the volume down. But from what i could see, i have to say that utmost positive effect of that type of defense is "ya it might hurt the guy during the take down" but with a full tackle and expecting to get hit plus adrenaline and not knowing what's coming at you and full committment of the tackle..and that strike won't do any good..will probably realize that as soon as you're on your back and can't do shiet.

it won't stop the grappler, but it MIGHT hurt him..in which that's about it.

The tackle is probably one of the most powerful attacks out there.

[Hendrik]

IMHHHO,

Logical reasonably, the reason might be sound, however, in reality it doesnt work and almost guarentee to be disaster.



One needs to consider how much the momentum shooting in which needs to be handle.
One needs to consider how much acceleration one can generate in that short distance and time. ( This is where I always brought up the Short Jin of WCK of 1850, can one do it? it is not a one inch punch demo which one has all the time to set up the situation and.....etc. )

also, one needs to know could one take it head on, and even if the shooter got hit unconcious but the body momentum still come at you can you manage the impact what is the effect...... (argueing with the so called WCK forward pressure with the YJKYM....etc is totally insain, look at how a lost control car hit into the road block. how much impact and what is the result?)


All of these are about how to handling the Dynamics flow. and most never really know how to handle the dynamics flow disregards of how many years or how many sets or how many woodern dummy one has trained with.




Wake up WCK.




OK, this was posted on another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKML3jfwDA

I am curious about what your opinions are on what is being taught here. My WC is from several years ago and I never got further than SLT.

Lets not turn this into linage wars or another shouting match with T and Dale. I would just like to know what the general WC community thinks about something like this.

Thx.

Mike t

[t_niehoff]

IMHHHO,

Logical reasonably, the reason might be sound, however, in reality it doesnt work and almost guarentee to be disaster.



One needs to consider how much the momentum shooting in which needs to be handle.
One needs to consider how much acceleration one can generate in that short distance and time. ( This is where I always brought up the Short Jin of WCK of 1850, can one do it? it is not a one inch punch demo which one has all the time to set up the situation and.....etc. )

also, one needs to know could one take it head on, and even if the shooter got hit unconcious but the body momentum still come at you can you manage the impact what is the effect...... (argueing with the so called WCK forward pressure with the YJKYM....etc is totally insain, look at how a lost control car hit into the road block. how much impact and what is the result?)


All of these are about how to handling the Dynamics flow. and most never really know how to handle the dynamics flow disregards of how many years or how many sets or how many woodern dummy one has trained with.




Wake up WCK.

One NEEDS to go to a good MMA gym and try out one's theories.

Wake up, Hendrik.