Weng Chun fighter Allan Neuherr won MMA fight

[Andreas Hoffman]

Congratulation to our Weng Chun fighter Allan Neuherr for his KO victory. Allan is a strong fighter and same time a traditional Weng Chun artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy2wZpRY2I

[Ultimatewingchun]

Doesn't look like Weng Chun !!! :eek:


Ha! ha! ha! Just kidding...:cool:

Congratulations, Andreas ! :D

[Knifefighter]

Congratulation to our Weng Chun fighter Allan Neuherr for his KO victory. Allan is a strong fighter and same time a traditional Weng Chun artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy2wZpRY2I

OK, WC "experts"? How about this? Is this a better representation of WC used full contact than the clip I posted?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Congratulation to our Weng Chun fighter Allan Neuherr for his KO victory. Allan is a strong fighter and same time a traditional Weng Chun artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy2wZpRY2I

Congrats... is this your student?

[Knifefighter]

Congrats... is this your student?

Do you consider this a better representation of WC techs/principles than you did regarding the clip of Aaron I posted? If so, why?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Do you consider this a better representation of WC techs/principles than you did regarding the clip of Aaron I posted? If so, why?

No, but to disparage the WC would be off topic. A lot of people feel like they need to modify their WC for the ring and I have no problem with it. I will always say, no one has to apologize for winning a fight.

[SAAMAG]

Why doesn't WC look like WC in an MMA FIGHT? Because it's an MMA FIGHT and everyone that goes into an MMA fight fights with MMA in mind. From the WC guy (who I'm assuming is the blond one) we see:

*A jab-cross-straight(ish), then a headlock?!. Then a takedown that was reversed.

*Stuck in a guillotine attempt and dealing with knees, he uses his forearms to block. He's released, and squares off again

*Attacks with a 4-5 series of looping punches -- the other guy moves in and is driven down by our WC guys forearm, could be seen as a lan sao.

*Tries to get his opponent in a guillotine (one of the most common MMA submissions); upon failure he rabbit punches the other guys head.

*Driven against the cage, he takes a moment of to compose himself--holding with what looks like a quasi underhook and possibly overhook with the other arm--he gets off the cage with an overhand left.

*Squaring off again, we get a loopy right followed by left loopy hook.

*Right MMA SHIN ROUND KICK to the thigh of the opponent followed by left straight using it to parry a immediate counter by the other guy

*Another MMA SHIN ROUND KICK with the same leg (I say MMA because it's not great for a thai kick but good for an MMA version of it)

*Sprawl to counter a double leg attempt.

*Standing, he throws a swinging uppercut punch--whereby the opponent drops onto his back as it misses.

*Drops with a punch to the downed opponent, follows with a standing position over the other guy doing a quasi ground and pound. As guy rolls around to avoid the punches, our WC guys continues the onslaught with varying angles, uppercuts with the right hand...

*Opponent stands, is right leg MMA round kicked

*Stands over the opponent using more ground and pound, keeps going with right hand hammering until fight is called in his favor.

SOOOO you tell us Dale...did any of that sound like Wing Chun or Weng Chun? Nope. It was MMA. None of it was even based on WC principles. At a longshot--we could say the forearm blocks were lan sao...but that's about it.

Just because you label MMA with WC, doesn't mean it's WC. Does it mean this Aaron did badly?! Hell no! He did a very good job in the fight and pretty much dominated the other guy. But to call THAT performance as whole or even partially wing chun...probably not. He can be a WC stylist that fights MMA; but that wasn't an example of WC being used IN MMA.

Now at the same time...it's my belief that while WC is effective for its desired range of combat, that range of combat only occurs for literally seconds at a time, whereby you will either be out of that range (kicking) or in an entirely different range altogether (like the ground). WC should be a tool used for it's purpose, not a tool to use in all tasks. That would be like using a screwdriver to hammer a nail. That's why you don't really see it in MMA. Because it would be subtle in its application and only done for the moment that it is ideal for.

[Knifefighter]

SOOOO you tell us Dale...did any of that sound like Wing Chun or Weng Chun? Nope. It was MMA. None of it was even based on WC principles. At a longshot--we could say the forearm blocks were lan sao...but that's about it.

Just because you label MMA with WC, doesn't mean it's WC. Does it mean this Aaron did badly?! Hell no! He did a very good job in the fight and pretty much dominated the other guy. But to call THAT performance as whole or even partially wing chun...probably not. He can be a WC stylest, that fights MMA. But that wasn't an example of WC being used IN MMA. .
So with that reasoning, shouldn't one just abandon WC if one wants to fight MMA?

It also begs the question, why can you still see BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling, and boxing techniques and principles in play in MMA?

.
Now at the same time...it's my belief that while WC is effective for its desired range of combat, that range of combat only occurs for literally seconds at a time, whereby you will either be out of that range (kicking) or in an entirely different range altogether (like the ground). WC should be a tool used for it's purpose, not a tool to use in all tasks. That would be like using a screwdriver to hammer a nail.
I agree also. Again, by that line of reasoning, wouldn't it also make sense to also limit one's training time in WC to that same small percentage and spend the majority of time on other ranges and styles?

[SAAMAG]

So with that reasoning, shouldn't one just abandon WC if one wants to fight MMA?

It also begs the question, why can you still see BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling, and boxing techniques and principles in play in MMA?

.
I agree also. Again, by that line of reasoning, wouldn't it also make sense to also limit one's training time in WC to that same small percentage and spend the majority of time on other ranges and styles?

If the goal is to fight MMA...then yes. I'd say better to train like MMA fighters do, using what works best in MMA. Of course it's ok to experiment. Try out what you do to see if it works...because there might be other things out there that work equally well (which satifies a personal style factor) or better (which satisfies the effectiveness factor). The thing with this video clip...is it didn't seem like he used any wing chun...so how does he know if it works? The question still remains unless there are other fights where he's using wing chun more prominently.

On the second point, I see where you're going and I agree. I felt that wing chun in it's classical form was indeed too limited in scope. Hence the reason why it was part of my toolbox and not the entire toolbox. I have muay thai, wing chun, and grappling (BJJ, Judo, and such) in my arsenal as primaries. Little things here and there that I've retained from other styles as well. No disagreement there at all my friend.

But seriously...do we have to compare MMA and wing chun all day long in a wing chun forum??

[Andreas Hoffman]

Thank you Ultimatewingchun for your gratulation. Since 15 years I work with my students in MMA, Sanda and Freefights. We try to keep our training methods of weng chun to enter the ring. Here is another fight in Sanda from Sebastian, here you can see typical weng chun ideas. He always try to circle and to enter from the site, from there he add striking, throwing etc.
If you are interested I can link more MMA and Sanda fights for you here.
I think we weng chun/wing chun people should work together to bring back the credibility of our styles into these sports.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Uups i forgot the link from the Sanda fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWFCGnepds&feature=related

[SAAMAG]

Thanks Andreas.

So a quick run down of the match (based on what I see)....


Sebastian throws a few round kicks from the outside
Gets a couple of nice leg lift takedowns (well timed)
A kick and punch from the outside
Low round kick to shoot attempt
Body kick and successful takedown defense
Landed a quick punch from the outside and another successful takedown defense
Low round kick to enter followed by round short punches, leg trip / sweep
A nice stiff stop hit (lead straight)
Following round kick as the opponent retreats and punch flurry
Declared the winner!


What I like is that he didn't go chain punching like most of the European WT guys do. He timed his shots, and used low kicks to setup his punches...and then from punches to takedowns or sweeps. So everything had its place.

Did it "look" like wing chun or weng chun? That will vary upon the viewer. Overall he did try to circle and attack from the outer gates, maintained composure, and did very, very well. So another win for a WC guy! My favorite pieces were the left lift counters and the nice stiff straight towards the end.

[Knifefighter]

If the goal is to fight MMA...then yes. I'd say better to train like MMA fighters do, using what works best in MMA. Of course it's ok to experiment. Try out what you do to see if it works...because there might be other things out there that work equally well (which satifies a personal style factor) or better (which satisfies the effectiveness factor). The thing with this video clip...is it didn't seem like he used any wing chun...so how does he know if it works? The question still remains unless there are other fights where he's using wing chun more prominently.

And if a person can't make his WC work in an MMA environment, wouldn't it make sense to also figure he probably couldn't do it in a street environment either?

[SAAMAG]

I see your logic and where you're going with it.

The fact of the matter is that MMA is a sport. Because something is effective in a ring, it doesn't mean it would work or be the best choice of technique in real life. The same goes vice versa.

For example: Anderson Silva dominates anyone in the ring, right? Yet he knew enough to not to fight back when he was mugged for his wallet. Why? MMA is a sport. Standing around circling and feinting and doing the one-two's and takedowns aren't SELF DEFENSE techniques per say. A jab, cross, hook, round kick, double leg, to GnP doesn't always fit the bill. It could be that controlling the person would have been better suited through grappling or trapping even something like kicking the knee out.

All that said...the fact is if you can't make your wing chun work in a ring, or in sparring, or in real life there IS problem. However the problem can be caused by a number of things:


It could be that your physical expertise needs more work
It could be that the style is flawed fundamentally
It could be that your understanding of the system is incorrect (i.e. your physical skills are good, you just don't understand the system well enough to make it work strategically)
It could be the gear causes a problem in terms of being able to apply common moves in the system (i.e. some say much of the hand work is hindered by the gloves) or the protectice gear masks the effectiveness of the technique
It could be the rules are built in such a way that favor certain systems.
The list can go on ad nauseum.


Some of these things are valid, some are more excuses. The fact remains though it's not cut and dry. So your deductive reasoning while proper on the surface, if not thought through in detail, can run into snags and incorrect conclusions.

You're basically saying that:

Wing chun doesn't work in MMA
Real fighting is more difficult than MMA
Therefore wing chun doesn't work in real fighting


That isn't necessarily the case because of aaaaaalllll the variables involved in real fighting, from relative skill levels, to the presence of weapons, to the environment, to weight class, and etc. Though generally and all else being equal...if you can't stop someone from hitting you in training, the likelyhood of stopping someone in real life is slim.

[anerlich]

Sifu Hoffman,

Congratulations to Allan and yourself.

[YungChun]

So with that reasoning, shouldn't one just abandon WC if one wants to fight MMA?

It also begs the question, why can you still see BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling, and boxing techniques and principles in play in MMA?

.
I agree also. Again, by that line of reasoning, wouldn't it also make sense to also limit one's training time in WC to that same small percentage and spend the majority of time on other ranges and styles?

I'm getting confused..

Aside from what actually works...which covers a lot..

My question, what I am thinking now is..

1.
How does someone (we think) trained to use VT moves, strikes, elbows, kicks, etc..

Suddenly fight like they trained everything BUT VT?

This would seem to suggest, since we are creatures of habit, that the training, or at least part of it was not what we think..in many of these cases.. Not singling anyone out.

2.
We have seen *some* VT concepts, methods used in Full Contact.. Not many but at least a couple.. So why so little?

On the basic level VT is about hitting and kicking... So why don't we *see* those strikes? Those kicks? At least TRIED, ATTEMPTED??

Now you can say because they don't work..etc.. But I am saying fine but why don't we see them attempted?

There is nothing wrong, as you have said in the past Dale, with an aggressive, centerline striking method, etc, and yet...where is that?

I know that when I fight, no matter where I will fight my way, my style, with the mechanics I use and do....win or lose.. I am a product of my training.. (doesn't mean you can't add to that, but that is still the base)..

Training one way and fighting another doesn't even seem possible.. So how is it that folks train a certain way but then suddenly start fighting a different way?

I mean is it that hard to use VT strikes? VT footwork? VT kicks and leg work? Is it really that hard to do--attempt?

I can accept someone trying to use what they do and having failed say, hey this needs work, or I need to change my game.. But if it's not even attempted then making conclusions about the subject matter seems like speculation at best, for good or bad..

[shawchemical]

OK, WC "experts"? How about this? Is this a better representation of WC used full contact than the clip I posted?

No, but it is a good representation of a man winning a fight with another man.

[Knifefighter]

I'm getting confused..

Aside from what actually works...which covers a lot..

My question, what I am thinking now is..

1.
How does someone (we think) trained to use VT moves, strikes, elbows, kicks, etc..

Suddenly fight like they trained everything BUT VT?

This would seem to suggest, since we are creatures of habit, that the training, or at least part of it was not what we think..in many of these cases.. Not singling anyone out.

2.
We have seen *some* VT concepts, methods used in Full Contact.. Not many but at least a couple.. So why so little?

On the basic level VT is about hitting and kicking... So why don't we *see* those strikes? Those kicks? At least TRIED, ATTEMPTED??

Now you can say because they don't work..etc.. But I am saying fine but why don't we see them attempted?

There is nothing wrong, as you have said in the past Dale, with an aggressive, centerline striking method, etc, and yet...where is that?

I know that when I fight, no matter where I will fight my way, my style, with the mechanics I use and do....win or lose.. I am a product of my training.. (doesn't mean you can't add to that, but that is still the base)..

Training one way and fighting another doesn't even seem possible.. So how is it that folks train a certain way but then suddenly start fighting a different way?

I mean is it that hard to use VT strikes? VT footwork? VT kicks and leg work? Is it really that hard to do--attempt?

I can accept someone trying to use what they do and having failed say, hey this needs work, or I need to change my game.. But if it's not even attempted then making conclusions about the subject matter seems like speculation at best, for good or bad..

Here are three typical examples of WC practitioners attempting to use their techniques in a full contact setting against fully resisting opponents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_H2EEyI3yo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1zPXhk16N8

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/281185/Wing_Tsun_Fight_Club_sparring_rarely_done

Tell me what you see there and I will be able to answer your questions.

[t_niehoff]

I see your logic and where you're going with it.

The fact of the matter is that MMA is a sport. Because something is effective in a ring, it doesn't mean it would work or be the best choice of technique in real life. The same goes vice versa.


No. No. NO.

If you can't make it work in "a ring" it simply doesn't work (against a genuinely resisting opponent).

What is ironic is that people who fall for the street-sport distinction seem to view sport as something "less" ,that's it's not "real fighting". In fact, it is just the opposite: sport if far, far, far more superior to street. IN sport you're facing conditioned athletes, skilled people, experienced fighters, etc.



For example: Anderson Silva dominates anyone in the ring, right? Yet he knew enough to not to fight back when he was mugged for his wallet. Why? MMA is a sport. Standing around circling and feinting and doing the one-two's and takedowns aren't SELF DEFENSE techniques per say. A jab, cross, hook, round kick, double leg, to GnP doesn't always fit the bill. It could be that controlling the person would have been better suited through grappling or trapping even something like kicking the knee out.


Just because you can fight well doesn't mean fighting is always the answer (like when you are mugged).

You are confusing skills with tactics (how you choose to use those skills). Skills are universal, but tactics will change based on the situation. Your double leg takedown is a skill; when and how you use it is a tactic.



All that said...the fact is if you can't make your wing chun work in a ring, or in sparring, or in real life there IS problem. However the problem can be caused by a number of things:


It could be that your physical expertise needs more work
It could be that the style is flawed fundamentally
It could be that your understanding of the system is incorrect (i.e. your physical skills are good, you just don't understand the system well enough to make it work strategically)
It could be the gear causes a problem in terms of being able to apply common moves in the system (i.e. some say much of the hand work is hindered by the gloves) or the protectice gear masks the effectiveness of the technique
It could be the rules are built in such a way that favor certain systems.
The list can go on ad nauseum.


Some of these things are valid, some are more excuses. The fact remains though it's not cut and dry. So your deductive reasoning while proper on the surface, if not thought through in detail, can run into snags and incorrect conclusions.


Our fighting ability depends primarily on three things. First, conditioning (how prepared our body is for the fight). Conditioning is the limiting factor of your performance. You are only as good as your conditioning. Second, skill (the development of your weaponry, including defense). Third, tactics (your choice in how you use your weaponry). If what you are doing is not working, then there is something wrong with one or more of these areas.



You're basically saying that:

Wing chun doesn't work in MMA
Real fighting is more difficult than MMA
Therefore wing chun doesn't work in real fighting


That isn't necessarily the case because of aaaaaalllll the variables involved in real fighting, from relative skill levels, to the presence of weapons, to the environment, to weight class, and etc. Though generally and all else being equal...if you can't stop someone from hitting you in training, the likelyhood of stopping someone in real life is slim.

MMA is "real fighting."

For your training to be effective, you need to practice DOING exactly what your target skill is -- in other words, you develop your target skill by doing your target skill. If you want to develop your ability to deal with a genuinely resisting opponent, then you need to practice doing that. If you don't, you can't develop that ability. Your skill in doing that (dealing with a genuinely resisting opponent) will be directly related to the amount of time you spend practicing it.

[Knifefighter]

MMA is "real fighting."

MMA is ONE ASPECT of fighting. There are other aspects of real fighting such as weapons, multiple opponents, types of environment. Each of these requires differing techniques, as well as strategies.

[t_niehoff]

MMA is ONE ASPECT of fighting. There are other aspects of real fighting such as weapons, multiple opponents, types of environment. Each of these requires differing techniques, as well as strategies.

I agree with you.

My point is that MMA is not something different than "real fighting" -- it is "real fighting". Fighting is simply an activity when you are trying to defeat and/or deal with a genuinely resisting opponent(s), armed or unarmed, who is using physical force in an attempt to overcome you. It's not a rule set or a lack of rules or a venue or whether a ref is present or not or etc.

[SAAMAG]

Sorry T, I like MMA too, but not so much that I don't see it for what it is. We'll just disagree here.

The difference between that and real fighting is (1) the opponent isn't trying to do you "real" bodily harm or kill you. (2) you know your opponent and what they're capable of (for the most part) (3) there are rules prohbiting certain things that WILL happen on the street (try pulling guard when someone punches or kicks you in the balls) (4) there are no weapons (5) there are no friends (6) there is safety gear (albeit mouthpiece and light gloves and cup but still gear) (7) the platform is a nice, flat, and dry surface (8) weight classes....etc...etc.

The list goes on. It's not real fighting. It's a good training ground and testing ground for effective fighting against resisting opponents though. Real? Nope.

I do agree from the respect of the opponent it is far more difficult to fight -- because you're fighting people of a higher skill level over the average joe. I also agree about conditioning, skill, strategy/tactics and general knowledge.

[Wayfaring]

The difference between that and real fighting is (1) the opponent isn't trying to do you "real" bodily harm or kill you.

Disagree. In MMA matches trying to finish fights is trying to inflict enough bodily harm so the other person quits or ref stops it. The intensity in MMA is real enough.



(2) you know your opponent and what they're capable of (for the most part)

Sometimes. Even so it doesn't make it easier.



(3) there are rules prohbiting certain things that WILL happen on the street (try pulling guard when someone punches or kicks you in the balls)

Agree. But the degee this matters is less than you think.



(4) there are no weapons (5) there are no friends

Both true and real differences between MMA and real streetfight.


(6) there is safety gear (albeit mouthpiece and light gloves and cup but still gear)

This actually enables people in MMA to hit harder and inflict MORE damage.


(7) the platform is a nice, flat, and dry surface

Cages aren't. And padded rings with spring floors actually take a heavy damage inflicting takedown and turn it into something less in MMA.


(8) weight classes....etc...etc.

A well conditioned MMA fighter will much more readily be able to fight out of or above their weight class against a significantly larger opponent than someone who does not train that way.



The list goes on. It's not real fighting. It's a good training ground and testing ground for effective fighting against resisting opponents though. Real? Nope.

More real than 99% of the WCK advertised "real" training for the streets.


I do agree from the respect of the opponent it is far more difficult to fight -- because you're fighting people of a higher skill level over the average joe. I also agree about conditioning, skill, strategy/tactics and general knowledge.
And yet certain elements of that still seem to not translate.

[Knifefighter]

Sorry T, I like MMA too, but not so much that I don't see it for what it is. We'll just disagree here.

The difference between that and real fighting is (1) the opponent isn't trying to do you "real" bodily harm or kill you. (2) you know your opponent and what they're capable of (for the most part) (3) there are rules prohbiting certain things that WILL happen on the street (try pulling guard when someone punches or kicks you in the balls) (4) there are no weapons (5) there are no friends (6) there is safety gear (albeit mouthpiece and light gloves and cup but still gear) (7) the platform is a nice, flat, and dry surface (8) weight classes....etc...etc..

Another clueless guy who has never once in his life fought an MMA match, yet thinks he knows what it is like.

1 - In every MMA match I was in I was trying to do as much bodily harm to my opponent as possible. I'm pretty sure they were trying to do the same. To think otherwise shows your complete ignorance.

2- Your opponent also has studied you. On the street, your opponent has not idea of what you know. This evens things out.

3- Try punching someone in the nuts who is pulling guard when they can kick you in the face. Or, try punching someone in the nuts when they have pulled closed guard. How do think that's going to work?

4- Weapons can change things. However, not all fights include weapons. If you want to be able to fight well against weapons, simply do MMA with weapons. The person who fights MMA without weapons will still have a huge advantage in terms of surviving against weapons compared the the guy who doesn't do MMA at all.

5- See #4.

6- Safety gear also make it harder for YOU to damage your opponent. Safety gear means you have to be that much better.

7- The terrain is equally challenging for both you and your opponent(s), so it pretty much evens out.

8- See #4 and #5.


When it comes to MMA, obviously you are a theoretical, fantasy, non-fighter. Come back and tell us what it is like after you have actually done it once or twice.

[bawang]

what is it about wing chun that hypnotize white people and make them never leave??

bruce lee??

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thinkg you guys are taking what van said out of context, especially the first part.
In sport no one goes into a match, typically, to hurt the other guy intentionally.
Of course it happens, but the intent to do serious harm is NOT there as much as the byproduct of the match can be serious harm.
I don't recall ever feeling like my life was in danger in any match I ever had, my health yes, LOL but not my life, I never looks at my opponent and thought, " I may have to kill this guy".
The intent in sport and "real" fighting is different.

I just don't think it is as big an issue as some make it out to be, unless a person DOESN'T know their life is on the line.

I am sure some guys juts love to hurt people, I know a few like that, but no one goes into a sport match with the GOAL to but the other guy in the hospital.

Fighters respect each other and indeed they should.

MA matches are an honorable test of skill, we are not killers and murderers, we are fighters and there is a code we respect and that is NOT to do any more damage then we need to, to win.

Of course, on the street, that code is not applicable and EVERYONE knows that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think you guys are taking what van said out of context, especially the first part.
In sport no one goes into a match, typically, to hurt the other guy intentionally.
Of course it happens, but the intent to do serious harm is NOT there as much as the byproduct of the match can be serious harm.
I don't recall ever feeling like my life was in danger in any match I ever had, my health yes, LOL but not my life, I never looks at my opponent and thought, " I may have to kill this guy".
The intent in sport and "real" fighting is different.

I just don't think it is as big an issue as some make it out to be, unless a person DOESN'T know their life is on the line.

I am sure some guys just love to hurt people, I know a few like that, but no one goes into a sport match with the GOAL to but the other guy in the hospital.

Fighters respect each other and indeed they should.

MA matches are an honorable test of skill, we are not killers and murderers, we are fighters and there is a code we respect and that is NOT to do any more damage then we need to, to win.

Of course, on the street, that code is not applicable and EVERYONE knows that.

***WORDS of wisdom, right there.

[Knifefighter]

I thinkg you guys are taking what van said out of context, especially the first part.
In sport no one goes into a match, typically, to hurt the other guy intentionally.
Of course it happens, but the intent to do serious harm is NOT there as much as the byproduct of the match can be serious harm.
I don't recall ever feeling like my life was in danger in any match I ever had, my health yes, LOL but not my life, I never looks at my opponent and thought, " I may have to kill this guy".
The intent in sport and "real" fighting is different.

I just don't think it is as big an issue as some make it out to be, unless a person DOESN'T know their life is on the line.

I am sure some guys juts love to hurt people, I know a few like that, but no one goes into a sport match with the GOAL to but the other guy in the hospital.

Fighters respect each other and indeed they should.

MA matches are an honorable test of skill, we are not killers and murderers, we are fighters and there is a code we respect and that is NOT to do any more damage then we need to, to win.

Of course, on the street, that code is not applicable and EVERYONE knows that.

So, in a street fight, your intent is to kill someone vs. a sport match where your intent is not to kill someone... is that the case?

Because if it is, it means one of two things:
- You haven't been in many street fights. If you had and were halfway decent, you would have killed a few people by now.
- Intent really doesn't matter anyway, because you weren't able to kill them on the street either.

On top of that, your competition matches must not have been very hard, nor against opponents who had much skill. I know in all of my matches, each of us was striking and kicking as hard as we could with full intent in each strike, each submission was applied with the intent to break, and each choke was applied with the intent to cause the opponent to lose consciousness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, in a street fight, your intent is to kill someone vs. a sport match where your intent is not to kill someone... is that the case?

Because if it is, it means one of two things:
- You haven't been in many street fights. If you had and were halfway decent, you would have killed a few people by now.
- Intent really doesn't matter anyway, because you weren't able to kill them on the street either.

On top of that, your competition matches must not have been very hard, nor against opponents who had much skill. I know in all of my matches, each of us was striking and kicking as hard as we could with full intent in each strike, each submission was applied with the intent to break, and each choke was applied with the intent to cause the opponent to lose consciousness.

I don't think I can make it clear than I did, sorry if you didn't understand.
How about this way:
At the end of a natch, what do you do to your opponent? Shake hands? tell him good work?
After someone tries to rape your wife or kill one of your kids and you out them in the hospital, what do you say to them?

[Wayfaring]

Ah, the old "street vs. sport" debate. You can talk it in circles and never get anywhere.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let's look at it this way, in regard to intent:
After you choke a guy out in a match, or KO him, what do you do?
If you get choked out or KO'd in the street, do you expect that same treatment ( above) from the guy that did it to you?

[Wayfaring]

Let's look at it this way, in regard to intent:
After you choke a guy out in a match, or KO him, what do you do?

Arrange his body in a compromising position, take pictures of it, and post them to his facebook page :D:D:D

Unfortunately they usually wake up well before I'm able to accomplish all of that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't really think you need to keep on explaining yourself about this, Paul. I think most people understand what the differences are that you correctly pointed out.

The bottom line is, that while mma fighting is clearly the closest thing you can have to a real altercation within martial arts - streetfights are potentially much more dangerous to your health and possibly your life.

Everybody knows this.

[Knifefighter]

I don't think I can make it clear than I did, sorry if you didn't understand.
How about this way:
At the end of a natch, what do you do to your opponent? Shake hands? tell him good work?
After someone tries to rape your wife or kill one of your kids and you out them in the hospital, what do you say to them?

During the sport match, do you strike the guy easier, do you throw him with a softer landing, do you apply a submission in a gentle manner? The fact is, during the match, not much is different.

And don't fool yourself. There are rules on the street. For the 99% of the people who have gotten in street fights and have managed to stay out of prison, there are self-imposed rules on the street. If there aren't rules then,
-you have either killed a few people,
-aren't good enough to kill someone in the first place, or
-the intent isn't even a consideration.

[Knifefighter]

I don't really think you need to keep on explaining yourself about this, Paul. I think most people understand what the differences are that you correctly pointed out.

The bottom line is, that while mma fighting is clearly the closest thing you can have to a real altercation within martial arts - streetfights are potentially much more dangerous to your health and possibly your life.

Everybody knows this.

Most MMA fighters will tell you they have had to seek medical attention more times from MMA matches than from street fights. I know I have.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm talking about potential danger. There's no comparison.

[Knifefighter]

I'm talking about potential danger. There's no comparison.

OK, agreed.

So, how does potential danger change anything? What will someone do differently because the potential danger is different?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Do anything about what, exactly? Don't quite understand your question.

[Knifefighter]

Do anything about what, exactly? Don't quite understand your question.

Well, supposedly, something is going to be done differently in the street because of the danger, right. Isn't that the whole point you guys are trying to make? MMA is not the street, so you have to do something differently because the danger is so much greater. Do you hit him harder? Choke him or apply a submission with more force? What should a person do differently on the street that he is not doing in MMA due to the increased danger?

[Frost]

During the sport match, do you strike the guy easier, do you throw him with a softer landing, do you apply a submission in a gentle manner? The fact is, during the match, not much is different.

And don't fool yourself. There are rules on the street. For the 99% of the people who have gotten in street fights and have managed to stay out of prison, there are self-imposed rules on the street. If there aren't rules then,
-you have either killed a few people,
-aren't good enough to kill someone in the first place, or
-the intent isn't even a consideration.

true there are always rules....unless you want to go to prison that is,

the intent in both cases for me is the same: i look to survive and win with as little damage as possible to myself within the rules as i understand them (be they sporting rules or legal laws i have to omply with)

no one as far as i can se is arguing that the street is tha same as MMA, what they are saying is if your stuff does not work under the limited rules of MMA then what the h8ll makes you think you can beat someone as$ in a street fight

[Frost]

Well, supposedly, something is going to be done differently in the street because of the danger, right. Isn't that the whole point you guys are trying to make? MMA is not the street, so you have to do something differently because the danger is so much greater. Do you hit him harder? Choke him or apply a submission with more force? What should a person do differently on the street that he is not doing in MMA due to the increased danger?

sits back with popcorn and waits with interest for the response....

[Frost]

Ah, the old "street vs. sport" debate. You can talk it in circles and never get anywhere.

true i was going to reply to the poster telling him how silly his points were but then i remembered this sh*t was old in the 90's, if people haven't learned by now there is no use in enlightening them

[Knifefighter]

After someone tries to rape your wife or kill one of your kids and you out them in the hospital, what do you say to them?

sanjuro-
Humor me with a little experiment here and answer this:

Do you think you could hurt the average 200lb rapist psycho-guy, who had just raped your wife and killed one of your kids, enough to put him into the hospital?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok...First off, I didn't say that there was any difference in what we DO in a Street fight VS a ring fight ( rules and stuff aside), that is why I was speaking of intent.

I bounced as a young lad and so that it is not merely and anecdote per se, Here are the places:
Cheaters
Jilly's
Brass rail
Flamengo rd
( Above are strip clubs)
The World
Monopoli
Venus 2
G-spot
Limelight

I have seen my share and been in my share of fights and like I have said before, I have never been tested in the street as much a sin the ring.
That said, I have never feared for my life in the ring and I have on the street.
I have been stabbed and shot at, hit by bottles and high heel shoes, I have been whacked by pool cues and had the please of breaking a guys mouth on a urinal because he thought it cool to do some girl in the guys bathroom and give me attitude when she ran out crying for help.
I was also there when one of our bouncers was shoot - Venus 2 and when one was stabbed multiple times in the back while doing his job.
I came late when one guy was being held by 2 others and a 3rd was teeing off on his balls, over and over and over till he was puking and crying like a baby.
I stopped one of my fellow bouncers from stomping on one guys face AFTER he had choked him out and he was lying on the floor unconcious.

I could go on....

The point is, there is a difference and we all know it deep down and the difference is that, when we step into the ring we are willing and able participants in a sport match with build in controls.
In the street we are often UNWILLING participants where we HOPE there are SOME controls.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well, supposedly, something is going to be done differently in the street because of the danger, right. Isn't that the whole point you guys are trying to make? MMA is not the street, so you have to do something differently because the danger is so much greater. Do you hit him harder? Choke him or apply a submission with more force? What should a person do differently on the street that he is not doing in MMA due to the increased danger?

***DO DIFFERENTLY?! You can do numerous things differently, because there are no rules, no refs, possibly no smooth surface to deal with...there could be people around who are also potentially a threat to you...you could grab an object on the scene (bottle, garbage can cover, stick, fork, chair, the list is endless)...and use it...

not to mention pulling out something that might be in your pocket or your car. You could aim kicks, knees, punches at the balls, elbows in eye sockets, punches to the back of the head when he's down, drop knees on his head while he's down, bite a piece of someone's ear off....call out to your friends to help you...the list of things that could be done differently in a streetfight situation compared to an mma match are endless.

And again, because of these variables...there really is no comparison between the potential dangers involved.

What are the percentages of mma matches and people who have died in the ring or cage, in this or any year?

And how many streetfights have turned deadly, every year?

Like I said, it's true that from a martial art perspective mma is the closest thing there is to reality fighting. No argument there.

But the potential dangers inherent in street altercations (or what starts out as a street altercation) are waaaay beyond a cage fighter's worst nightmare.

[Knifefighter]

Ok...First off, I didn't say that there was any difference in what we DO in a Street fight VS a ring fight ( rules and stuff aside), that is why I was speaking of intent.

I bounced as a young lad and so that it is not merely and anecdote per se, Here are the places:
Cheaters
Jilly's
Brass rail
Flamengo rd
( Above are strip clubs)
The World
Monopoli
Venus 2
G-spot
Limelight

I have seen my share and been in my share of fights and like I have said before, I have never been tested in the street as much a sin the ring.
That said, I have never feared for my life in the ring and I have on the street.
I have been stabbed and shot at, hit by bottles and high heel shoes, I have been whacked by pool cues and had the please of breaking a guys mouth on a urinal because he thought it cool to do some girl in the guys bathroom and give me attitude when she ran out crying for help.
I was also there when one of our bouncers was shoot - Venus 2 and when one was stabbed multiple times in the back while doing his job.
I came late when one guy was being held by 2 others and a 3rd was teeing off on his balls, over and over and over till he was puking and crying like a baby.
I stopped one of my fellow bouncers from stomping on one guys face AFTER he had choked him out and he was lying on the floor unconcious.

I could go on....

The point is, there is a difference and we all know it deep down and the difference is that, when we step into the ring we are willing and able participants in a sport match with build in controls.
In the street we are often UNWILLING participants where we HOPE there are SOME controls.

OK, so you were more scared in the street? What you DID really wasn't much different, though. Only your emotions were different. So they really aren't that much different other than how a person experiences the emotions that go with each environment.

Anyway, back to the experiment.

So what do think? What do you think is the probability that you could put a guy like that, who had done those things to your family, in the hospital?

[Ultimatewingchun]

sanjuro-
Humor me with a little experiment here and answer this:

Do you think you could hurt the average 200lb rapist psycho-guy, who had just raped your wife and killed one of your kids, enough to put him into the hospital?

***YEAH, you could shoot him in the head. Or plunge a knife into his heart. Or take a baseball bat to his knees, and then to his body and head once he drops.
Oh yeah, you could hurt him alright...

[Knifefighter]

***DO DIFFERENTLY?! You can do numerous things differently, because there are no rules, no refs, possibly no smooth surface to deal with...there could be people around who are also potentially a threat to you...you could grab an object on the scene (bottle, garbage can cover, stick, fork, chair, the list is endless)...and use it...

not to mention pulling out something that might be in your pocket or your car. You could aim kicks, knees, punches at the balls, elbows in eye sockets, punches to the back of the head when he's down, drop knees on his head while he's down, bite a piece of someone's ear off....call out to your friends to help you...the list of things that could be done differently in a streetfight situation compared to an mma match are endless.

OK, fair enough. Let me ask you a couple of questions:

- Does the different environment you are using make it harder or easier to fight on the street?

- You've posted about the fights you've been in. How many of those things listed above did you use in your fights?

- How many of those things you listed above do you fight full contact against resisting opponents?

[Wayfaring]

Ok...First off, I didn't say that there was any difference in what we DO in a Street fight VS a ring fight ( rules and stuff aside), that is why I was speaking of intent.


That's what I was speaking of too. But you guys just have no sense of humor.

And there is no way you have adequately exhausted all the potential street danger arguments that there are available. I mean there's the rusty hypodermic needles that keep you from going to the ground for fear of HIV, there's the multiple opponents, and multiple armed opponents, bullets, the law, and the fear of very large girlfriends of the guy you just hit, just to name a few.

[Wayfaring]

So what do think? What do you think is the probability that you could put a guy like that, who had done those things to your family, in the hospital?

I like my odds.

[Knifefighter]

***YEAH, you could shoot him in the head. Or plunge a knife into his heart. Or take a baseball bat to his knees, and then to his body and head once he drops.
Oh yeah, you could hurt him alright...

OK, again, fair enough... and a couple of more questions:

So, does that make it easier or harder to go against a guy like that vs. a guy in an MMA fight?

And, if those are the things you use when faced with a "real" situation, why do not train strictly with guns, knives and baseball bats?

[Knifefighter]

Ok...First off, I didn't say that there was any difference in what we DO in a Street fight VS a ring fight ( rules and stuff aside), that is why I was speaking of intent.

And with my "experiment" I hope to convince you that the intent is pretty much the same, at least at the higher competitive levels.

[Wayfaring]

And with my "experiment" I hope to convince you that the intent is pretty much the same, at least at the higher competitive levels.

Yeah, I don't see a huge difference there. Other than when I would stop depending on the circumstances.

[Ultimatewingchun]

OK, fair enough. Let me ask you a couple of questions:

- Does the different environment you are using make it harder or easier to fight on the street?

- You've posted about the fights you've been in. How many of those things listed above did you use in your fights?

- How many of those things you listed above do you fight full contact against resisting opponents?

***You mentioned three things, Dale.

1- It's a double-edged sword. The very thing within the street environment that could be an advantage for me at one moment (fighting on concrete near a curb - and I see an opportunity because he just stepped backwards - and now perhaps just a push from me could send him down on his back as he trips over the edge - just one of dozens of possible examples)...that very same thing could be a problem for me in the very next instant. So all in all, I would have to say that the street environment - being so unpredictable because of an infinite number of variables - is potentially much harder to deal with.

2- I remember when a huge dude started to come at me with a bottle in his hand very late at night on a lonely street. Once I pulled out a knife, he stopped...Where could that have gone, I wonder? Have used (and received) kicks to the balls, bites, hair pulls...Once had my eyes gouged many years ago while on the ground (he was in mount position)...and bad enough to require immediate and serious medical attention from a doctor...Have been hit in the head with a baseball bat. Have dropped someone with a baseball bat across his knees. Have pounded someone's head into a metal pole during a fight on a subway train. Have purposely tripped and thrown someone straight back and down during an altercation on a sidewalk. He hit his head and was knocked temporarily unconscious (that was very scary, actually).

3- Never fought any full contact match or sparring session against a resisting opponent while using a weapon of any kind.

[Knifefighter]

***You mentioned three things, Dale.

1- It's a double-edged sword. The very thing within the street environment that could be an advantage for me at one moment (fighting on concrete near a curb - and I see an opportunity because he just stepped backwards - and now perhaps just a push from me could send him down on his back as he trips over the edge - just one of dozens of possible examples)...that very same thing could be a problem for me in the very next instant. So all in all, I would have to say that the street environment - being so unpredictable because of an infinite number of variables - is potentially much harder to deal with.

2- I remember when a huge dude started to come at me with a bottle in his hand very late at night on a lonely street. Once I pulled out a knife, he stopped...Where could that have gone, I wonder? Have used (and received) kicks to the balls, bites, hair pulls...Once had my eyes gouged many years ago while on the ground (he was in mount position)...and bad enough to require immediate and serious medical attention from a doctor...Have been hit in the head with a baseball bat. Have dropped someone with a baseball bat across his knees. Have pounded someone's head into a metal pole during a fight on a subway train. Have purposely tripped and thrown someone straight back and down during an altercation on a sidewalk. He hit his head and was knocked temporarily unconscious (that was very scary, actually).

3- Never fought any full contact match or sparring session against a resisting opponent while using a weapon of any kind.

In all your street fights, how many would you say you won vs. lost vs. draw.

I am defining "win" as dominating the opponent enough that you stopped after he quit or you incapacitated him enough that he had to stop. I am defining "lose" as the same thing happening to you. I am defining "draw" as neither of you finishing off the other because you both decided to quit or the fight was stopped by outside factors.

Out of the fights you have been in, what percentage of the time did you have to seek medical attention?

[Ultimatewingchun]

OK, again, fair enough... and a couple of more questions:

So, does that make it easier or harder to go against a guy like that vs. a guy in an MMA fight?

And, if those are the things you use when faced with a "real" situation, why do not train strictly with guns, knives and baseball bats?

***AGAIN, Dale, you asked two questions...

1- Really different variable here. Probably much harder to deal with the guy who (God forbid) just raped your wife or killed one of your kids....because the emotions you're feeling are in a totally different stratosphere than if you were involved in an mma match of some kind. And of course harder in the sense that you need to take an enormous amount of things into account (like going to prison or getting shot yourself)...if you were invloved in the hypothetical you just gave.

2- Why would I train "strictly" with guns, knives, and baseball bats? I'm not a murderer !!! Or some lunatic looking for an opportunity to use a weapon on someone. These things are just a fallback position that one really doesn't want to use...but in a street altercation, between the adrenaline rush of both fear and possibly rage - you do what you gotta do.

[Ultimatewingchun]

In all your street fights, how many would you say you won vs. lost vs. draw.

I am defining "win" as dominating the opponent enough that you stopped after he quit or you incapacitated him enough that he had to stop. I am defining "lose" as the same thing happening to you. I am defining "draw" as neither of you finishing off the other because you both decided to quit or the fight was stopped by outside factors.

Out of the fights you have been in, what percentage of the time did you have to seek medical attention?

***AND now I feel as though I'm being trolled. God, what else is new with you?! :rolleyes:

I'll tell ya' what, Dale...Why don't you answer this question - about yourself. :cool: :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro-
Humor me with a little experiment here and answer this:

Do you think you could hurt the average 200lb rapist psycho-guy, who had just raped your wife and killed one of your kids, enough to put him into the hospital?

I hope so.
And yes, that would be because of the SPORT training I got, I KNOW your point Dale and don't argue that part.

[Knifefighter]

I hope so.
And yes, that would be because of the SPORT training I got, I KNOW your point Dale and don't argue that part.

I'm not so sure you do get the point, so let me continue with my "experiment" and let me ask another question:

Do you think the probability is just as high that you could put the average 200 lb. pro MMA fighter in the hospital?

[sanjuro_ronin]

And with my "experiment" I hope to convince you that the intent is pretty much the same, at least at the higher competitive levels.

Sorry, I don't agree, I agree that the training and what we use is the same, yes but I for one, never went in with the intent to seriously **** someone up.
Now, I competed at the national level in Judo and boxing and the N.American level in Kyokushin.
I did NOT compete at a world level in those systems nor did I compete ate anything other than "club level" in MT and MMA, so I grant you that.
But you have to be honest with me Dale, did you go into any Dog brother gathering with malicious intent?
Or any submission grappling or MMA event with malicious intent?

[Knifefighter]

***AGAIN, Dale, you asked two questions...
2- Why would I train "strictly" with guns, knives, and baseball bats? I'm not a murderer !!! Or some lunatic looking for an opportunity to use a weapon on someone. These things are just a fallback position that one really doesn't want to use...but in a street altercation, between the adrenaline rush of both fear and possibly rage - you do what you gotta do.

Fair enough again. Do you train with guns, knives and baseball bats the equivalent percentage of time they might be used as a fallback?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not so sure you do get the point, so let me continue with my "experiment" and let me ask another question:

Do you think the probability is just as high that you could put the average 200 lb. pro MMA fighter in the hospital?

The average 200 lbs MMA fighter?
Yes.
And what do I base this on?
Have done it before, something I am not proud of but I conceed this, I don't know what level he was, other than he fought and competed at some events in Montreal.
I can assure you that, my intent would be far greater under those circumstances than in a match, and I think YOU yourself would agree.
Now I know what you will ask next, could I beat that same guy in a MMA match?
Again, a valid question, and going on MY EXPERIENCE solely, I can honestly say that I don't know.
ANd yes, I know what point you are trying to make and my point is that it seems you are underestimating intent on an individual basis.

[Knifefighter]

The average 200 lbs MMA fighter?
Yes.
And what do I base this on?
Have done it before, something I am not proud of but I conceed this, I don't know what level he was, other than he fought and competed at some events in Montreal.
I can assure you that, my intent would be far greater under those circumstances than in a match, and I think YOU yourself would agree.
Now I know what you will ask next, could I beat that same guy in a MMA match?
Again, a valid question, and going on MY EXPERIENCE solely, I can honestly say that I don't know.
ANd yes, I know what point you are trying to make and my point is that it seems you are underestimating intent on an individual basis.

No, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking whether or not you think you could beat him in the MMA match, not necessarily on the street. But you have answered that... you said you don't know.

Let me ask two other questions:
1- What is it that makes you so sure you could put the rapist in the hospital, but not so sure about the pro MMA guy in an MMA match?

2- What is different, in your mind, in the intent between hurting the rapist and hurting the MMA fighter in an MMA match?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Fair enough again. Do you train with guns, knives and baseball bats the equivalent percentage of time they might be used as a fallback?

***I train weapons at a much smaller percentage of time compared to training for empty hand combat. This is something to think about, however...

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking whether or not you think you could beat him in the MMA match, not necessarily on the street. But you have answered that... you said you don't know.

Let me ask two other questions:
1- What is it that makes you so sure you could put the rapist in the hospital, but not so sure about the pro MMA guy in an MMA match?

2- What is different, in your mind, in the intent between hurting the rapist and hurting the MMA fighter in an MMA match?

Well, my emotional state aside, The MMA guys is a trained fighter and while I USED to be, I am very aware that I am NOT one right now.
I have said many times, If it works in the ring, it will work in the street and I hold to that.
If you can beat a trained fighter under limited rules, you have a better chance to beat an untrained one without rules.

[Knifefighter]

Sorry, I don't agree, I agree that the training and what we use is the same, yes but I for one, never went in with the intent to seriously **** someone up.
Now, I competed at the national level in Judo and boxing and the N.American level in Kyokushin.
I did NOT compete at a world level in those systems nor did I compete ate anything other than "club level" in MT and MMA, so I grant you that.
But you have to be honest with me Dale, did you go into any Dog brother gathering with malicious intent?
Or any submission grappling or MMA event with malicious intent?

Depends on the event and the level of the opponent. In MMA, boxing and kickboxing, I went in with full malicious intent most of the time. I think you will find that most competitive fighters do that. If you don't, you'll lose and lose badly. I found that out the hard way in some of my first fights.

Dog Bros is somewhat different. Sometimes, you go against new, less experienced guys and you take it easy on them because of the difference in skill levels. However, when you are going against another skilled fighter who outsizes you, you'd better go in with full bad-intent.

The fact is, you fight better if you can harness bad intent, i.e. make your opponent that rapist guy, at the appropriate times (do it at the wrong times and it can actually make you fight worse). Most higher level fighters have figured this out a long time ago.

[sanjuro_ronin]

2- What is different, in your mind, in the intent between hurting the rapist and hurting the MMA fighter in an MMA match?

Again, speaking for myself, I fought to win, not to hurt and though hurting the other was the process, the ultimate goal was victory, the by product was pain.
Confronting a rapist, the ultimate goal is pain or perhaps worse, the rest is irrelevant.
I do concede that, perhaps, the upper levels of MA competition that the intent is far more than what I used to feel and perhaps that is why I never reached that pinnacle.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Depends on the event and the level of the opponent. In MMA, boxing and kickboxing, I went in with full malicious intent most of the time. I think you will find that most competitive fighters do that. If you don't, you'll lose and lose badly. I found that out the hard way in some of my first fights.

Dog Bros is somewhat different. Sometimes, you go against new, less experienced guys and you take it easy on them because of the difference in skill levels. However, when you are going against another skilled fighter who outsizes you, you'd better go in with full bad-intent.

Understood, I appreciate your honesty.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The fact is, you fight better if you can harness bad intent, i.e. make your opponent that rapist guy, at the appropriate times (do it at the wrong times and it can actually make you fight worse). Most higher level fighters have figured this out a long time ago."

***WHAT, in your mind, are the right times and the wrong times, Dale?

[SAAMAG]

The problem with forums is that the high and mighty Dale and Terence -- both old and decrepit...are ****ed off because people only view their life's passion as a "sport" and nothing more.

Not only that, but half the **** they say wouldn't be said in that fashion face-to-ace. That's been proven in the meet-ups that have happened. They all of a sudden end up being cordial and do a friendly spar or not participate at all because the drill was "beneath" them.

So let's give the "oh you're not an MMA fighter because you disagree with me" crap a rest. It's getting old. I train at local MMA gyms in Muay Thai, BJJ, and Judo. I use wing chun at those gyms. I have a group of martial artists of different disciplines whom I train with, in all ranges and types of combat.

So to think that just because someone disagrees with you means their training or experience or knowledge base is less than yours is just childish. Give it a rest. The degree of resistance is the same, but not the degree of intent. If it is, than you haven't learned much about martial arts and need psychological help.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never fought like that, I never viewed the opponent other than a means to an end.
He wasn't a person, he was dangerous of course, but I never had any feeling towards him other than beating him not just to win, be to test my skill level.
I never felt rage or over aggression, it was usually a cold and calculated feeling.
Very detached to be honest.
Although, to be honest, that side did try to rear it's ugly head a few times.

[couch]

Maybe everyone is training Wing Chun wrong.

And the folks who are training their Wing Chun for MMA are training it right.

What if we all have been drinking the same Kool-Aid for so long that we can't see where we've gone wrong? And we all hang out with the same friends, at the same place, drinking the same stuff year after year.

http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2010/01/21/the-importance-of-the-cat-in-meditation-3/

[Ultimatewingchun]

Vankuen:

There's a giant difference between Dale Frank and Terence Niehoff, imo.

While Dale constantly trolls and chest beats..and while a lot of his assumptions about wing chun are just not valid - he is the real deal in terms of fighting skills, knowledge, and experience in a number of arts and venues.

Terence Niehoff, on the other hand, imo, is a complete "poser"...attempting to pass himself off as some sort of expert when clearly he's not even close to being an expert on anything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe everyone is training Wing Chun wrong.

And the folks who are training their Wing Chun for MMA are training it right.

What if we all have been drinking the same Kool-Aid for so long that we can't see where we've gone wrong? And we all hang out with the same friends, at the same place, drinking the same stuff year after year.

http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2010/01/21/the-importance-of-the-cat-in-meditation-3/

Well, you don't get a lot of THIS in WC:
http://bp1.blogger.com/_C5436zEgR6I/SF1WD0x_LGI/AAAAAAAAAGs/qjxDdQhBWJQ/S730/Kyra%2BGracie-sexy-martial%2Barts.jpg

[Frost]

Well, you don't get a lot of THIS in WC:
http://bp1.blogger.com/_C5436zEgR6I/SF1WD0x_LGI/AAAAAAAAAGs/qjxDdQhBWJQ/S730/Kyra%2BGracie-sexy-martial%2Barts.jpg

can you imagin being her boyfriend and upsetting her lol

[Ultimatewingchun]

Maybe everyone is training Wing Chun wrong.

And the folks who are training their Wing Chun for MMA are training it right.

What if we all have been drinking the same Kool-Aid for so long that we can't see where we've gone wrong? And we all hang out with the same friends, at the same place, drinking the same stuff year after year.

http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2010/01/21/the-importance-of-the-cat-in-meditation-3/

***COOL zen buddhist story by Paulo Coelho, couch. I kind of feel the same way about chi sao. Good stuff to be learned there - but it's importance to actual wing chun fight efficiency became overblown to the point of the ridiculous with loads of wing chun people.

And yeah, training to fight mma - or something resembling it because clinch and ground are included in one's constant sparring regimen - (and against people with other skills) is the way out of the wing chun kool aid mentality.

As is dropping the hero worship for one's sifu/lineage - and chasing status based upon your relationship to - or certificates and title from - those very same people. They are not Gods, and you are not some sort of favored son.

So such people really need, imo, to reach a point where they're no longer dependent upon their instructors for unceasing guidance, approval, and status.

There are guys who haven't really tested themselves in years (or decades)...but nonethelss want to believe that, here in 2010, they've still got the answers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dale does make a valid point, perhaps elite and high level pro fighters do have that "killer intent" and are exposed to it on a regular basis>
I don't know, I know that in the ring I never cultivate it, but I never got that far either so...
Perhaps there is less "distance" between real world intent and high level competitive intent that we who have never experienced it, think there is.

[Frost]

Dale does make a valid point, perhaps elite and high level pro fighters do have that "killer intent" and are exposed to it on a regular basis>
I don't know, I know that in the ring I never cultivate it, but I never got that far either so...
Perhaps there is less "distance" between real world intent and high level competitive intent that we who have never experienced it, think there is.

Yes he has a very valid point from what I have seen being around some very good pros, one of them has all the skill in the world to become a good ufc fighter and real contender but was too nice in the cage, letting guys recover just doing enough to beat them without hurting them etc...He had to see a sports psychologist to help get him that killer mindset you need in a fight in order to get that next step up the ladder.

But also I think your way is valid too, some people are calculated cold and unemotional in the ring, both ways can work but from what I have seen the very best have a combination of both: the ability to remain calm and still call upon that killer instinct to destroy the opponent

[Knifefighter]

Not only that, but half the **** they say wouldn't be said in that fashion face-to-ace. That's been proven in the meet-ups that have happened. They all of a sudden end up being cordial and do a friendly spar or not participate at all because the drill was "beneath" them.

The fact is, the anti-MMA crowd rarely says to your face what they say behind your back or online.

That being said, anyone who has ever said, "MMA is just a sport and isn't the same as real fighting" to my face has been shown otherwise. Same with "I can never be taken down", "I would just nut strike you or eye gouge you", or "That stick fighting stuff takes no technique".

I am generally polite to people in person, but I call them on bullsh!t if they start talking it. Tell me in person, "I would just nut strike you in the guard" and we'll be trying it for real straight away, as I've done on a few occasions. In person, if someone tells me they can do something, or they tell me I can't, I'll pretty much always say, "Show me now."


So let's give the "oh you're not an MMA fighter because you disagree with me" crap a rest. It's getting old. I train at local MMA gyms in Muay Thai, BJJ, and Judo. I use wing chun at those gyms. I have a group of martial artists of different disciplines whom I train with, in all ranges and types of combat.

So to think that just because someone disagrees with you means their training or experience or knowledge base is less than yours is just childish. Give it a rest. The degree of resistance is the same, but not the degree of intent. If it is, than you haven't learned much about martial arts and need psychological help.

Training is not the same as competing full-on against someone whom you do not know. Training is not the same as knowing you will get your arm or leg snapped if you are caught and don't tap very quickly in a match. Training intent is almost never the same as competition, match intent. One of the most eye opening thing for most people who first start competing is how hard the opponents go, how hard they hit and how strong they are.

Ask top fighters what they are thinking of before their comps. The majority will tell you they are visualizing how badly they are going to mess up the opponent.

Go out and compete in a few MMA bouts and then come back and tell me about how its the same as training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The fact is, you fight better if you can harness bad intent, i.e. make your opponent that rapist guy, at the appropriate times (do it at the wrong times and it can actually make you fight worse). Most higher level fighters have figured this out a long time ago." (Knifefighter)

***WHAT, in your mind, are the right times and the wrong times, Dale?
..................

Actually, Paul...although curiously he's yet to answer, I believe (and have done so for some time) that turning your opponent into some sort of "monster" in your own head is a very key ingredient in any kind of real fight situation. And the mentality becomes: DESTROY THE MONSTER before he destroys you.

And I think that Dale is right about the fact that many high level mma guys are probably doing that very thing to prepare themselves for their matches.

Ever watch Fedor's demeanor as he comes into the ring, for example...He's cool as a cucumber on the surface - but underneath you can tell there's a volcano ready to explode.

He doesn't wear it on his sleeve - but it's always there, nonetheless.

A Mike Tyson or a Roberto Duran, on the other hand, wore it on their sleeves just about all the time.

If you want to be fully prepared for battle - demonizing the opponent is part of the preparation.

Will, Skill, Conditioning...right?

And what we're talking about is part of the whole WILL process.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes he has a very valid point from what I have seen being around some very good pros, one of them has all the skill in the world to become a good ufc fighter and real contender but was too nice in the cage, letting guys recover just doing enough to beat them without hurting them etc...He had to see a sports psychologist to help get him that killer mindset you need in a fight in order to get that next step up the ladder.

But also I think your way is valid too, some people are calculated cold and unemotional in the ring, both ways can work but from what I have seen the very best have a combination of both: the ability to remain calm and still call upon that killer instinct to destroy the opponent

I never had a problem beating people, except those that were better than me, I hate people like that !
But I always viewed competition as training, as testing, I never really got do focused on "winning" as much as I did on "how good am I?".
I never thought about being a champ or the best of the best, just really wanted to see what I could do.
That is why kyokushin was a nice fit, no weight limits, a true test of fighting ability AND will.
It's funny though and I don't talk much about it but, when I started to feel motivated to "win" and when I started to feel that "instinct" is when I felt it was time to go.
Maybe I was wrong...

[sanjuro_ronin]

"The fact is, you fight better if you can harness bad intent, i.e. make your opponent that rapist guy, at the appropriate times (do it at the wrong times and it can actually make you fight worse). Most higher level fighters have figured this out a long time ago." (Knifefighter)

***WHAT, in your mind, are the right times and the wrong times, Dale?
..................

Actually, Paul...although curiously he's yet to answer, I believe (and have done so for some time) that turning your opponent into some sort of "monster" in your own head is a very key ingredient in any kind of real fight situation.

And I think that Dale is right about the fact that many high level mma guys are probably doing that very same thing to prepare themselves for their matches.

Ever watch Fedor's demeanor as he comes into the ring, for example...He's cool as a cucumber on the surface - but underneath you can tell there's a volcano ready to explode.

He doesn't wear it on his sleeve - but it's always there, nonetheless.

A Mike Tyson or a Roberto Duran, on the other hand, wore it on their sleeves just about all the time.

If you want to be fully prepared for battle - demonizing the opponent is part of the preparation.

Will, Skill, Conditioning...right?

And what we're talking about is part of the whole WILL process.

Perhaps, but I do know this for sure, in terms of sport, I don't have then in me anymore.
The will to turn to the "dark side" if you will, I can't put myself into that with a nice guy on the other side of the ring.
Not anymore, that's for sure.
But hey, power and props to those than can turn it on and off.
Respect.

[Knifefighter]

"The fact is, you fight better if you can harness bad intent, i.e. make your opponent that rapist guy, at the appropriate times (do it at the wrong times and it can actually make you fight worse). Most higher level fighters have figured this out a long time ago."

***WHAT, in your mind, are the right times and the wrong times, Dale?

I believe you have to be able to harness what I call "controlled hatred". Too much hate and you quickly burn through your reserves and are gassed. Not enough and you don't try hard enough to put your opponent away.

[Frost]

I never had a problem beating people, except those that were better than me, I hate people like that !
But I always viewed competition as training, as testing, I never really got do focused on "winning" as much as I did on "how good am I?".
I never thought about being a champ or the best of the best, just really wanted to see what I could do.
That is why kyokushin was a nice fit, no weight limits, a true test of fighting ability AND will.
It's funny though and I don't talk much about it but, when I started to feel motivated to "win" and when I started to feel that "instinct" is when I felt it was time to go.
Maybe I was wrong...

you seem pretty happy and well adjusted so i doubt you were wrong:)
not everyone can be a professional fighter (note i did not say top level which you seem to have been but professional) pros not only test themselves and love to fight but they need to destroy and beat their opponent for professional reasons

people driven to be champs are driven to beat others not just test themselves...please note this is only what i have oserved from being around fighters not i have not expereinced it directly (except in grappling) so take it with a pinch of salt, but often times its not the most talented or gifted or even hard working guys that become pros and good fighters, its those that are driven to win

[Frost]

I believe you have to be able to harness what I call "controlled hatred". Too much hate and you quickly burn through your reserves and are gassed. Not enough and you don't try hard enough to put your opponent away.

bingo this is what i have seen in the top guys fighting out of the gym i go to, they are controlled but motivated to do real damage, like i said their are other guys in the gym that might be more talented but they cant harness this ability like these guys can

[Ultimatewingchun]

Perhaps, but I do know this for sure, in terms of sport, I don't have then in me anymore.
The will to turn to the "dark side" if you will, I can't put myself into that with a nice guy on the other side of the ring.
Not anymore, that's for sure.
But hey, power and props to those than can turn it on and off.
Respect.

***NO, respect to you more than to those guys. In the sense that you have done something they've yet to learn - but hopefully will learn at some point down the road. You've learned that gratuitous "ultra violence" is a negative - not a positive.

That's what I meant earlier when I told Dale "I'm not a murderor - so why would I spend all my time training with weapons".

Now I realize he was probably trolling with his questions more than anything else; and quite FRANKLY...I suspect he's still waaay behind his physical years - when it comes to what's still in his head, if you get my drift.

Buy hey, that's cool.

Many years ago my first wing chun instructor, Moy Yat, once said something to me:

"The purpose of king fu is to make sure that no one ever makes you his victim."

I never forgot that; and what I personally have added to it through the decades (I'll be 60 this October) - is the following sentence:

"And to make sure that I never make anyone my victim."

Once you understand those two sentences as a whole - then you've got the true martial way, imo.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe you have to be able to harness what I call "controlled hatred". Too much hate and you quickly burn through your reserves and are gassed. Not enough and you don't try hard enough to put your opponent away.

***THAT'S a good answer.

[Wayfaring]

2- What is different, in your mind, in the intent between hurting the rapist and hurting the MMA fighter in an MMA match?

There is a difference in this intent for me. In an MMA context there is the same level of hype and aggression. However in the context you set up my intent would be an all-out effort to end another man's life, including a sacrificial intent to accomplish this that would not be there in an MMA scenario.

Would this make it different? Yeah, it might.

[kung fu fighter]

***NO, (I'll be 60 this October)

Holy Sh!t, you look good for your age:)

I think most of us are looking at this in the wrong way, Instead of comming to conclusion of which training method is better (MMA or wing chun), we need to investigate which attributes gained from MMA training can be used to improve our wing chun fighting abilities. There are some exceptional MMA fighters as well as some really sh!ty ones, same goes for wing chun fighters or fighters from any other styles for that matter. We need to investigate which atttributes separates good fighters from great fighters. I don't feel we need to necessily change anything in the wing chun system itself per se, but we definately need to develop the attributes needed to apply the techniques such as confidence, intent, timing and distancing with a resisting opponent (what I like to call resistance training). A style or system cannot teach these things, since the style is just a dead method passed down, it's up to the individual to make it come alive. Understanding and awareness of these attributes can only be attained through fighting experience. If one has good fighting attributes, he can pull off any techniques, just look at Bruce Lee, Anderson silva, or even Mohamed Ali. These guys could probably pull off even ballet techniques in fights if they wanted to because their attributes would allow them to.

[Wayfaring]

I believe you have to be able to harness what I call "controlled hatred". Too much hate and you quickly burn through your reserves and are gassed. Not enough and you don't try hard enough to put your opponent away.

IMO many fighters work up something similar to this but it doesn't involved hatred. I term it aggressiveness, hype. Alexander Emelianenko looks bored before he fights, but turns it on at the bell. The fighters around me all are different. Some hype, some relaxed and laughing, some angry, hatred. But there is always a presence of "bringing it" mentally when it starts. A mental preparation like for lifting a huge weight, or a similar intense effort. Too lax and you can almost see they're going to lose before they step in.

[Ultimatewingchun]

holy sh!t, you look good for your age:)



***Thanks.

[Knifefighter]

Victor-
I wasn't trolling you. I was simply interested in your thought process behind the difference between MMA and "the street".

Personally, I think each has the potential to be either the easiest or the hardest thing you have ever done. Sometimes you walk right through someone and sometimes someone else kills you. Sometimes you might end up fighting an enraged meth-head with a knife, other times it might just be your ****ed off and drunk brother-in-law.

MMA is more controlled, but the caliber of fighter is usually higher. The street is more dangerous, but you are probably more likely to get hurt badly enough to require medical treatment in MMA. Street fights can often be prevented simply by saying "Oops, Sorry." MMA fights pretty much have to keep going as each person proceeds to beat the other one up.

My only problem is with people who have never actually tried doing it, but somehow think MMA is easy, doesn't require skill, and/or isn't "real" fighting... or that they think they know what is is like simply because they "train" with MMA fighters.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I get what you're saying, Dale.

Lots of folks around here probably still don't understand the giant leap forward martial arts as a whole has taken with the advent of organized mma matches...

and how much an art like wing chun can draw from this whole turn of events.

[Wayfaring]

Ask top fighters what they are thinking of before their comps. The majority will tell you they are visualizing how badly they are going to mess up the opponent.


I think this is 100% right even if the outward demeanor comes off differently for people.

[Knifefighter]

So let's give the "oh you're not an MMA fighter because you disagree with me" crap a rest. It's getting old. I train at local MMA gyms in Muay Thai, BJJ, and Judo. I use wing chun at those gyms. I have a group of martial artists of different disciplines whom I train with, in all ranges and types of combat.

BTW, I doubt you really do this. Otherwise, you'd pretty much know the old "hit em in the balls" while you are in the guard is stupid.

[kung fu fighter]

Ask top fighters what they are thinking of before their comps. The majority will tell you they are visualizing how badly they are going to mess up the opponent.


Again this falls under the attribute of intent or focus:)

[Knifefighter]

Again this falls under the attribute of intent or focus:)

No, it's different. There's something different about being able to depersonalize and hate your opponent. The military figured this out a long time ago.

As a matter of fact, I believe that MMA/sports people who can learn to do this have a big advantage on the street. Hate will override the fear that comes with the potential dangers and unknowns that causes many people to freeze or under-perform.

[kung fu fighter]

No, it's different. There's something different about being able to depersonalize and hate your opponent. The military figured this out a long time ago.

As a matter of fact, I believe that MMA/sports people who can learn to do this have a big advantage on the street. Hate will override the fear that comes with the potential dangers and unknowns that causes many people to freeze or under-perform.


This is the old fight or flight symdrome, it's a mental attribute developed from fighting experience, but it's not anger, It's intent. Bruce lee spoke about it in Tao of JKD, and he certainly wasn't doing MMA:)

[Knifefighter]

This is the old fight or flight symdrome, it's a mental attribute developed from fighting experience, but it's not anger, It's intent. Bruce lee spoke about it in Tao of JKD, and he certainly wasn't doing MMA:)

OK, so, tell me exactly, how you have found your performance to have been affected differently when you have fought under each of these conditions. How has your performance been different when you were able to make your self feel controlled anger vs. when you were able to simply feel intent.

[SAAMAG]

BTW, I doubt you really do this. Otherwise, you'd pretty much know the old "hit em in the balls" while you are in the guard is stupid.

Nope, but I do knee drop on gonads from time to time as a joke for guys who don't wear cups. It works to have them either not pull guard or wear a cup next time. I don't put one hand down there because I learned real quick about getting triangled. That (statement about the nut punch) was thrown in as a thing that is said.

In a real situation where rules weren't a factor and I didn't like the guy (and if I had a clear shot at someone while they're trying to pull guard), yea I'd smash em. As a matter of fact, I kicked someone in the balls today during a session!! :D

[Knifefighter]

Nope, but I do knee drop on gonads from time to time as a joke for guys who don't wear cups. It works to have them either not pull guard or wear a cup next time. I don't put one hand down there because I learned real quick about getting triangled. That (statement about the nut punch) was thrown in as a thing that is said.

In a real situation where rules weren't a factor and I didn't like the guy (and if I had a clear shot at someone while they're trying to pull guard), yea I'd smash em. As a matter of fact, I kicked someone in the balls today during a session!! :D

So, let's see. Guys are pulling guard and you are kneeing them in the nutz. That leads to three questions:
1. Why are they not upkicking you and throwing kicks at your knees?
2. Why would an MMA fighter who has half a clue be pulling guard these days?
3. If, for whatever reason, they are pulling guard, why would they be pulling open guard?

Something ain't right here in terms of what types of guys you are portraying yourself as training with.

[SAAMAG]

So, let's see. Guys are pulling guard and you are kneeing them in the nutz. That leads to three questions:
1. Why are they not upkicking you and throwing kicks at your knees?
2. Why would an MMA fighter who has half a clue be pulling guard these days?
3. If, for whatever reason, they are pulling guard, why would they be pulling open guard?

Something ain't right here in terms of what types of guys you are portraying yourself as training with.

Seriously?? You really think you know it all don't you?

First off it's not like it's happening in every roll or session. Just something to keep things real when someone continues to pull guard constantly without regard to protecting vital areas.

There are some guys who ALWAYS pull guard and never seem to get side control or top mount for whatever the reason.

I first realized this in one of my first BJJ sessions years ago when I was learning to break closed guard by pressing the hips and butting the knee up against the coccyx while pressing the butt back to break the feet apart and then thread the knee into the hip crease. I knee'd the guys balls by accident...and he was hurt by it (no cup). I started thinking to myself "why aren't people addressing this if it's such a viable target and exposed in guard?"

Anyway....

1. We aren't trying to break each other's faces, we're training and sparring (there's some of that difference between that and real fighting). How do you up kick when someone has got control of your ankles or pant legs? To do a knee drop...you're inside the legs with control of them, not outside or ****her back where an up-kick would be a viable technique. It's not a lifesaver either, or a knockout move. You swat them away and shuck em over.

2. Ask ALL the MMA fighters in the UFC why they do it then. Everyone has different reasons and both closed and open guards have pro's and con's.

3. See question 2. Many people use both closed and open guard. It could be because the other guy worked out of closed guard, it could be because the bottom guy is good with open guard and prefers his feet or knees on the hips, knees, or biceps.

But to add to that, you act like guard and open guard are "bad" or not happening at all--or that they only are done by novices when in fact EVERYONE in every BJJ school is doing those things. Just because you don't like it or can't do anything with it doesn't mean it's not done. That's T-think right there. Though your questioning of something like this is ironically stupid considering your background.

[kung fu fighter]

OK, so, tell me exactly, how you have found your performance to have been affected differently when you have fought under each of these conditions. How has your performance been different when you were able to make your self feel controlled anger vs. when you were able to simply feel intent.


With intent, you see everything more clearly. I've heard it discribed as being in the Zone, Mushin. Anger leaves you open because you become tunnel vision and attack blindly.

[Knifefighter]

Seriously?? You really think you know it all don't you?

1. We aren't trying to break each other's faces, we're training and sparring (there's some of that difference between that and real fighting). How do you up kick when someone has got control of your ankles or pant legs? To do a knee drop...you're inside the legs with control of them, not outside or ****her back where an up-kick would be a viable technique. It's not a lifesaver either, or a knockout move. You swat them away and shuck em over.

2. Ask ALL the MMA fighters in the UFC why they do it then. Everyone has different reasons and both closed and open guards have pro's and con's.

3. See question 2. Many people use both closed and open guard. It could be because the other guy worked out of closed guard, it could be because the bottom guy is good with open guard and prefers his feet or knees on the hips, knees, or biceps.

But to add to that, you act like guard and open guard are "bad" or not happening at all--or that they only are done by novices when in fact EVERYONE in every BJJ school is doing those things. Just because you don't like it or can't do anything with it doesn't mean it's not done. That's T-think right there. Though your questioning of something like this is ironically stupid considering your background.

Let's first figure out what you are talking about here. Are you talking about BJJ/sub-grappling or MMA training?

[SAAMAG]

Let's first figure out what you are talking about here. Are you talking about BJJ/sub-grappling or MMA training?

Oh sorry about the lack of clarification...

Both actually, but moreso with the first than the latter because of strikes being utilized as well with the latter.

No one WANTS to pull guard with MMA per say because you can still get rained down on with punches. If you are on top and get bucked off, you're likely to end up with them in your guard, or you scramble to both stand, or you end up with them on your side, or whatever. Regardless, it happens and happens frequently as you can see with many of the UFC and MMA type matches. But you deal with it and move on.

Now of course I wouldn't be nut-dropping in a competition mind you, because its against the RULES. But it's something to think about in a situation where there are none. If you find that you've got someone in your guard, you're basically showing them your balls and saying "suck on this" ; )

But I digress...I'm not trying to have you focus on my nuts or anyone else nuts Dale...it was one sentence of many in that post. :D

[anerlich]

The problem with forums is that the high and mighty Dale and Terence -- both old and decrepit

Steady on there, bucko. I'm pretty sure I'm older than both of them. Phil Redmond certainly is.:cool:

[goju]

Seriously?? You really think you know it all don't you?

if he yells it on here a certain number of times maybe it will come true!!:rolleyes::D

[SAAMAG]

Steady on there, bucko. I'm pretty sure I'm older than both of them. Phil Redmond certainly is.:cool:

Naw...that's just a jibe (as Terence would put it) at the "old bitter man" syndrome they seem to have with things. If you don't have their same views, then you're wrong. They're ****ed because they feel like other people didn't do the work they did at attaining their skills and as such no one else has the knowledge or experience to disagree with them.

Now I agree with most things but not with all.

Which is...wrong.

[goju]

They're ****ed because they feel like other people didn't do the work they did at attaining their skills and as such no one else has the knowledge or experience to disagree with them.


which is amusing considering how presumptious and stupid it is to think like that:D

[shawchemical]

MMA is ONE ASPECT of fighting. There are other aspects of real fighting such as weapons, multiple opponents, types of environment. Each of these requires differing techniques, as well as strategies.

MMA is nothing more than a ruleset to compete under.

Idiots like you never seem to grasp that.