My Confession

[kfson]

I practice Xing Y and Chen Taiji. I try to see all the possibilities of applications. BUT, when I see the BJJ folk, I see myself being able to handle myself fairly well while on two feet. Then if they happen to take me to the ground, it looks like it would be over fairly quickly for me.
Mind you, I don't mind having expertise in BJJ, but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit. And then there is the Ringworm and Staff infection thing.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I practice Xing Y and Chen Taiji. I try to see all the possibilities of applications. BUT, when I see the BJJ folk, I see myself being able to handle myself fairly well while on two feet. Then if they happen to take me to the ground, it looks like it would be over fairly quickly for me.
Mind you, I don't mind having expertise in BJJ, but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit. And then there is the Ringworm and Staff infection thing.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.

All my years in Judo and then the few years I spent in BJj and not ONE infection or anything.

[TaichiMantis]

All my years in Judo and then the few years I spent in BJj and not ONE infection or anything.

"but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit."

THIS is the part he LOVED!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

"but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit."

THIS is the part he LOVED!:D

Well, he can always join a co-ed gym :D

http://lolmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/hot-bjj-babes-demotivational-poster.jpg

[taai gihk yahn]

Well, he can always join a co-ed gym :D

http://lolmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/hot-bjj-babes-demotivational-poster.jpg

Wow, I mean, just wow;

screw TSK - I'm signing my son up wherever they train!

[Frost]

I practice Xing Y and Chen Taiji. I try to see all the possibilities of applications. BUT, when I see the BJJ folk, I see myself being able to handle myself fairly well while on two feet. Then if they happen to take me to the ground, it looks like it would be over fairly quickly for me.
Mind you, I don't mind having expertise in BJJ, but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit. And then there is the Ringworm and Staff infection thing.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.


Yep because tai chi and bagua have proven themselves great stand-up arts.......anyway to your inane ramping post

you see yourself being to handle yourself on your feet but getting beat on the ground...heres a novel idea instead of thinking go to a gym and actually find out, as for the anti *****sexual connotations in your mail grow up and get a life

[Frost]

Well, he can always join a co-ed gym :D

http://lolmma.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/hot-bjj-babes-demotivational-poster.jpg

lol i actually train with a few girls that look like this...unfortunantly they don't dress like that in training :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol i actually train with a few girls that look like this...unfortunantly they don't dress like that in training :)

You must have went to the wrong lineage.

[Frost]

You must have went to the wrong lineage.

lol i just wish i could watch them role more closely but my girlfriend sometimes trains at the same gym so i have to behave myself

[Lee Chiang Po]

I practice Xing Y and Chen Taiji. I try to see all the possibilities of applications. BUT, when I see the BJJ folk, I see myself being able to handle myself fairly well while on two feet. Then if they happen to take me to the ground, it looks like it would be over fairly quickly for me.
Mind you, I don't mind having expertise in BJJ, but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit. And then there is the Ringworm and Staff infection thing.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.

If you have skills, why not just develop your own techniques for ground fighting. Every system has something that can apply to the ground if you take it seriously. Japanese jiujitsu has everything you need for ground fighting, and most any system will have. You just need to look at it closely and determine what you can use there and how to apply it most effectively.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you have skills, why not just develop your own techniques for ground fighting. Every system has something that can apply to the ground if you take it seriously. Japanese jiujitsu has everything you need for ground fighting, and most any system will have. You just need to look at it closely and determine what you can use there and how to apply it most effectively.

The term is JAPANESE jujutsu.

[Dale Dugas]

the use of racist terms is unacceptable in this day and age.

[goju]

had a cute older woman at our bjj class XD i she was much more fun to practice with than the guy who smelled like he rolled around in dog crap before he came into the gym


i never got staph but i was sick frequnetly from all the grappling classes

[Taryn P.]

Mind you, I don't mind having expertise in BJJ, but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit. .

That scares you worse than knowing you're going to get the snot beaten out of you as soon as a fight goes tothe ground? :confused:

[taai gihk yahn]

That scares you worse than knowing you're going to get the snot beaten out of you as soon as a fight goes tothe ground? :confused:

Taryn P. wins the Internetz!

[goju]

That scares you worse than knowing you're going to get the snot beaten out of you as soon as a fight goes tothe ground? :confused:

for some guys it honestly may:rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

I don't mind having expertise in BJJ, but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit. Try to get yourself a girl as your BJJ partner. "You will love the way you feel, I gurantee it".

That was how I developed my ground skill with my ex-grilfriend (she is a BJJ instructor now).

[Taryn P.]

"You will love the way you feel, I gurantee it".
).

Right up until she chokes you unconscious.

[goju]

Try to get yourself a girl as your BJJ partner. "You will love the way you feel, I gurantee it".

That was how I developed my ground skill with my ex-grilfriend (she is a BJJ instructor now).

that a good idea they are usually more hygenic than dudes too

[YouKnowWho]

Right up until she chokes you unconscious.
If I get myself killed by a beautiful girl in ground game, I will have a big smile on my face on my way to heaven.

[Lucas]

but what if shes an angry man hating dyke with a mullet and a larger upper body than you and twice as much leg and armpit hair?

[goju]

but what if shes an angry man hating dyke with a mullet and a larger upper body than you and twice as much leg and armpit hair?


pray to chinese jesus to save you lol

[uki]

but what if shes an angry man hating dyke with a mullet and a larger upper body than you and twice as much leg and armpit hair?that opening scene form "boondock saints" comes to mind... LOL

[kfson]

Yep because tai chi and bagua have proven themselves great stand-up arts.......anyway to your inane ramping post

you see yourself being to handle yourself on your feet but getting beat on the ground...heres a novel idea instead of thinking go to a gym and actually find out, as for the anti *****sexual connotations in your mail grow up and get a life

It's all how you read it, you've been exposed. Now go cover up.

[Frost]

but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch

yep i'm sure its all in how i read it:rolleyes:

the only one who would be exposed is you if you ever actually had the B*lls to go to a club and get your a*s handed to you by guys that can actually grapple (standing and on the ground)

[Scott R. Brown]

It is pretty easy to knife someone behind the ear, in the cervical vertebrae, or kidneys as they are setting up and executing a takedown.

That is what I would practice if you don't want to learn to grapple!

All techniques have their weaknesses. Find the weaknesses of grappling and train yourself to attack them.

[kfson]

It is pretty easy to knife someone behind the ear, in the cervical vertebrae, or kidneys as they are setting up and executing a takedown.

That is what I would practice if you don't want to learn to grapple!

All techniques have their weaknesses. Find the weaknesses of grappling and train yourself to attack them.

That's the best answer.

[Frost]

It is pretty easy to knife someone behind the ear, in the cervical vertebrae, or kidneys as they are setting up and executing a takedown.

That is what I would practice if you don't want to learn to grapple!

All techniques have their weaknesses. Find the weaknesses of grappling and train yourself to attack them.

really...have you done this against someone becuase i have found trying to deploy a knife and use it on someone shooting in fast for the takedown or who is controlling my arms and setting up the clinch very hard to do

oh and knifeing someone who is unarmed and thus probably not putting you in fear of your life means you will be spending the next few years in a cell...have fun

[LSWCTN1]

really...have you done this against someone becuase i have found trying to deploy a knife and use it on someone shooting in fast for the takedown or who is controlling my arms and setting up the clinch very hard to do

oh and knifeing someone who is unarmed and thus probably not putting you in fear of your life means you will be spending the next few years in a cell...have fun

and when a big man comes to savage your botty...

thats true cage fighting

[Frost]

and when a big man comes to savage your botty...

thats true cage fighting

yep then hewill wish they had learned to fight on the ground in compromising positions, a jock strap in the face will be the least of his problems here :D

[Scott R. Brown]

really...have you done this against someone becuase i have found trying to deploy a knife and use it on someone shooting in fast for the takedown or who is controlling my arms and setting up the clinch very hard to do

oh and knifeing someone who is unarmed and thus probably not putting you in fear of your life means you will be spending the next few years in a cell...have fun

I have handled enough shooters to feel confident I can do it in many, if not most, circumstances. It has been a very rare circumstance where I wouldn't have been able to bring a knife into play.

Remember you must use strategy and tactics. A good knife fighter would, of course, practice bringing his knife into play. I have only toyed with the idea because I am not interest grappling, but I have grappled practiced grapplers in the past and I am not too concerned with most of them.

A smart person will draw a takedown and have a hidden knife prepared from the beginning. It isn't that hard to draw a takedown now-a-days when nearly everyone fancies themselves a grappler.

Is there a way around it? Of course there is, all techniques have counters. What makes someone successful is their ability to avoid counters when they are executing their chosen techniques.

As I said above......every method has its weakness. All one need do is study the techniques, divine the weaknesses and learn how to exploit them to your advantage!

At the very least you could just let them put you into their favorite armbar and drive your knife into their femoral artery and twist, severe their hamstring, sever their wrist tendons, severe the Achilles tendon, or any other target of opportunity.

[Scott R. Brown]

and when a big man comes to savage your botty...

thats true cage fighting


yep then hewill wish they had learned to fight on the ground in compromising positions, a jock strap in the face will be the least of his problems here :D

Or you may get your brains blown out and your family will be sad you brought your grappling to a gun fight!:D

[TaichiMantis]

a jock strap in the face will be the least of his problems here :D

Hmmm...this could be a trasition to the "biting thread" ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

oh and knifeing someone who is unarmed and thus probably not putting you in fear of your life means you will be spending the next few years in a cell...have fun

You haven't fought any REAL bad guys then. They rarely care if the will end up in prison because most of them have already been there.

You can use the amount of force used against you. One could argue in court very easily that once they let a grappler control them they are completely at the mercy of someone who attacked them first and would be unable to defend themselves effectively.


Grappling can easily be demonstrated to be very dangerous and people have already died in the street from being choked out too long.

As they say, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Fighting is not a game. You never know who doesn't care if they will end up in jail or not!

[Frost]

I have handled enough shooters to feel confident I can do it in many, if not most, circumstances. It has been a very rare circumstance where I wouldn't have been able to bring a knife into play.

Remember you must use strategy and tactics. A good knife fighter would, of course, practice bringing his knife into play. I have only toyed with the idea because I am not interest grappling, but I have grappled practiced grapplers in the past and I am not too concerned with most of them.

A smart person will draw a takedown and have a hidden knife prepared from the beginning. It isn't that hard to draw a takedown now-a-days when nearly everyone fancies themselves a grappler.

Is there a way around it? Of course there is, all techniques have counters. What makes someone successful is their ability to avoid counters when they are executing their chosen techniques.

As I said above......every method has its weakness. All one need do is study the techniques, divine the weaknesses and learn how to exploit them to your advantage!

At the very least you could just let them put you into their favorite armbar and drive your knife into their femoral artery and twist, severe their hamstring, sever their wrist tendons, severe the Achilles tendon, or any other target of opportunity.

in one sentence you say only toyed with the idea, but in another you say you are confident it will work, I’ll be honest here its sounds to me like the talk of an insecure man who doesn’t know how to grapple so is making himself feel better by saying how he would f*ck up the grappler with a knife. If you can't stop the momentum of the takedown you will be on your back and not have time to draw the blade it’s as simple as that...now if you can defend the takedown keep your balance you can then take the blade out and use it...of course that means learning to grapple something you don't seem to want to do.

As for putting you in an arm bar on the street dream on ill be kicking your f*cking head in or stomping you to death after throwing you on your head mate I will not be going for a nice sub like that.

But for arguments sake let’s say I did go for an arm bar you would have about a second before your arm was broken and I was rolling off you, I aint holding the sub I am breaking fast and hard...and I can enter an arm bar so quickly you would not even feel it coming especially if you are busy trying to stop me punch your head in (its hard to draw a knife when both hands are on your head and you are screaming please stop hitting me

[Frost]

Or you may get your brains blown out and your family will be sad you brought your grappling to a gun fight!:D

and again you will be off to jail and your family will be sad at the thought of you getting r*ped in the showers :D

[Frost]

You haven't fought any REAL bad guys then. They rarely care if the will end up in prison because most of them have already been there.

You can use the amount of force used against you. One could argue in court very easily that once they let a grappler control them they are completely at the mercy of someone who attacked them first and would be unable to defend themselves effectively.


Grappling can easily be demonstrated to be very dangerous and people have already died in the street from being choked out too long.

As they say, it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Fighting is not a game. You never know who doesn't care if they will end up in jail or not!

Oh here we go the real bad guys have shown up:rolleyes:

not really striking has been shown to kill a lot more people than grappling and how many times has someone gotten off for shooting or stabbing an unarmed man who was trying to punch them (here in the UK I’ll give you a hint not often...of course it might be different in the states)

And it’s a lot easier to argue grappling is safer than striking both from a statistical point and in the law courts...I was just trying to hold him your honour to stop him hitting me and my friends and he stabbed me...look I left no mark on him at all I didn’t even raise my hands ...and so on and son on

The cross examination of the defendant by the prosecutor would be fun to listen to, so did the defendant hit you in any way...well no but he tried to hold on to me so I felt in fear of my life and stabbed him over and over

Thats a f*cking stupid saying how many street fights have you been in where you had to kill someone and how many times did you get off with it? Why bother learning any martial art why not just shoot or stab the next guy that pushes you or looks at you funnily

[goju]

[QUOTE=Frost;1008849]Oh here we go the real bad guys have shown up:rolleyes:

not really striking has been shown to kill a lot more people than grappling and how many times has someone gotten off for shooting or stabbing an unarmed man who was trying to punch them (here in the UK I’ll give you a hint not often...of course it might be different in the states)

And it’s a lot easier to argue grappling is safer than striking both from a statistical point and in the law courts...I was just trying to hold him your honour to stop him hitting me and my friends and he stabbed me...look I left no mark on him at all I didn’t even raise my hands ...and so on and son on[QUOTE]



it honestly can be dangerous both ways you can shoot on a guy and he doesnt know how to fall and the next thing you know he cracked his melon on the side walk:eek:

eugene robinson's book called fight delt with this issue

it noted an incident where a bjj guy woke up to find some drunk guy messing about with his car he went to aks himto leave and the drunk got violent

he attacked bjj guys shot and the drunk happened to have his keys in his hand

he swiped the keys across the bjjs guys face and caused him to bleed lke a stuck pig

bjj guys manages to get the the drunk attacker to the ground takes his back sinks in a choke

BUT being that the bjj guy was bleeding all over the place and in a panic he accidentally held on to the choke a bit to long

attacker ended up dead

bjj guy faced serious pokey time

[goju]

you can't stop the momentum of the takedown you will be on your back and not have time to draw the blade it’s as simple as that...now if you can defend the takedown keep your balance you can then take the blade out and use it...of course that means learning to grapple something you don't seem to want to do.
you can still manage to pull a knife out on your back

[Frost]

[QUOTE=Frost;1008849]Oh here we go the real bad guys have shown up:rolleyes:

not really striking has been shown to kill a lot more people than grappling and how many times has someone gotten off for shooting or stabbing an unarmed man who was trying to punch them (here in the UK I’ll give you a hint not often...of course it might be different in the states)

And it’s a lot easier to argue grappling is safer than striking both from a statistical point and in the law courts...I was just trying to hold him your honour to stop him hitting me and my friends and he stabbed me...look I left no mark on him at all I didn’t even raise my hands ...and so on and son on[QUOTE]



it honestly can be dangerous both ways you can shoot on a guy and he doesnt know how to fall and the next thing you know he cracked his melon on the side walk:eek:

eugene robinson's book called fight delt with this issue

it noted an incident where a bjj guy woke up to find some drunk guy messing about with his car he went to aks himto leave and the drunk got violent

he attacked bjj guys shot and the drunk happened to have his keys in his hand

he swiped the keys across the bjjs guys face and caused him to bleed lke a stuck pig

bjj guys manages to get the the drunk attacker to the ground takes his back sinks in a choke

BUT being that the bjj guy was bleeding all over the place and in a panic he accidentally held on to the choke a bit to long

attacker ended up dead

bjj guy faced serious pokey time

yes it has happened and yes they are bother dangerous but how often compared to someone getting hit with a punch and cracking their head on the pavement...statistically speaking more injuries come from strikes than takedowns or grappling...and as i said the law will have a hard time coming down on someone who got knifed for simply holding onto someone wouldn't you think?

[Frost]

you can still manage to pull a knife out on your back

have you done it often and sucessfully? I ask because i have trouble doing it and so do most of the guys i have tried it with, when you are going down your natural reaction is to either hold on or prepare/brace yourself for the coming impact..not reach behind your back. and a shoot gets you to the ground so quickly that even if you do reach behind your back you end up with your arm pinned between you and the ground which is not nice. Now can you stab omeone shooting in, yes but from my expereince this happens mostly after sprawling or stopping the momentum of the takedown first

[goju]

"and as i said the law will have a hard time coming down on someone who got knifed for simply holding onto someone wouldn't you think?"


it depends it could be said (or twisted) that when he was holding him down he was attempting to choke him thus the person who was being held was forced to stab him out of defense (shrugs)

theres to many factors playing into it making it just best to walk away or run lol

[Frost]

"and as i said the law will have a hard time coming down on someone who got knifed for simply holding onto someone wouldn't you think?"


it depends it could be said (or twisted) that when he was holding him down he was attempting to choke him thus the person who was being held was forced to stab him out of defense (shrugs)

theres to many factors playing into it making it just best to walk away or run lol

ok try these two instances..people whitness someone punching the cr*p out of someone who then gets knifed... and people whitness someone grabboing hold of someone and holidng him down on the ground and then getting knifed....which of the two would you see as more or an overkill?

any way my original point was rebutting the fact that grappling is seen as dangerous and has caused alot of deaths and thus pulling a knife could be justified in the eyes of the law....i say it has not and grappling is no where near as dangerous as striking in that it has not caused as many deaths...and that pulling a knife in a striking match would mean alot of trouble with the police as well.....would you agree?

[goju]

have you done it often and sucessfully? I ask because i have trouble doing it and so do most of the guys i have tried it with, when you are going down your natural reaction is to either hold on or prepare/brace yourself for the coming impact..not reach behind your back. and a shoot gets you to the ground so quickly that even if you do reach behind your back you end up with your arm pinned between you and the ground which is not nice. Now can you stab omeone shooting in, yes but from my expereince this happens mostly after sprawling or stopping the momentum of the takedown first


i was speaking of pulling a knife once you are on the ground not when you are falling of course thats not happening for the resons you noted


and its assuming the knife is in certain place on the person( like the back pocket)

it could be in the front pockets of the pants, in the front pockets of a jacket or shirt, heck ive even know people who walked around with those knife necklaces things like this

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bFUtRVrvL.jpg

[goju]

ok try these two instances..people whitness someone punching the cr*p out of someone who then gets knifed... and people whitness someone grabboing hold of someone and holidng him down on the ground and then getting knifed....which of the two would you see as more or an overkill?

any way my original point was rebutting the fact that grappling is seen as dangerous and has caused alot of deaths and thus pulling a knife could be justified in the eyes of the law....i say it has not and grappling is no where near as dangerous as striking in that it has not caused as many deaths...and that pulling a knife in a striking match would mean alot of trouble with the police as well.....would you agree?

of course pounding someones face in would be however as i noted a good laywer can turn the second situation into an overexaggerated event where the knifer was in fear of his life and has to do it blah blah blah

as for the second part yes i agree

[Frost]

i was speaking of pulling a knife once you are on the ground not when you are falling of course thats not happening for the resons you noted


and its assuming the knife is in certain place on the person( like the back pocket)

it could be in the front pockets of the pants, in the front pockets of a jacket or shirt, heck ive even know people who walked around with those knife necklaces things like this

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bFUtRVrvL.jpg

a grappler would be tieing the arms up on the ground or punching the head and thus making drawing a knife hard...but as i noted i wouldn't be on the ground i would be soccer kicking the crap out of you after throwing you...i don;t know many guys who would go for the arm bar, throw soccer kick or knee on belly and punches does it for me and both of those make the knifing thing hard to do

[goju]

a grappler would be tieing the arms up on the ground or punching the head and thus making drawing a knife hard...but as i noted i wouldn't be on the ground i would be soccer kicking the crap out of you after throwing you...i don;t know many guys who would go for the arm bar, throw soccer kick or knee on belly and punches does it for me and both of those make the knifing thing hard to do
but this is based off of assumption just like the guy with his knife comments made

getting from point A to point B to point C doesnt go smoothly all the time and in between things can go wrong, horribly so in some instances

but of course i am not a complete noob to grappling so i am at an advantage

im sure someone who didnt know ANYTHING about putting someone in a guard or looking for certain things or how to fall would well be smushed pretty quickly

[Frost]

but this is based off of assumption just like the guy with his knife comments made

getting from point A to point B to point C doesnt go smoothly all the time and in between things can go wrong, horribly so in some instances

but of course i am not a complete noob to grappling so i am at an advantage

im sure someone who didnt know ANYTHING about putting someone in a guard or looking for certain things or how to fall would well be smushed pretty quickly

true however my assumptions come from sparing and fighting guys with little or no grappling, against these guys getting the takedowns is not that hard, neither is getting to your feet or staying on your feet to hurt them when they are down there..and my experience with grappling and training knifes comes from sparring guys with little grappling they found it hard to get the blade out...how someone with grappling opened me up easily when i did it with them.....hence I said its easier to use a knife if you can grapple and that relying on one instead of learning the basics is just silly and dangerous

[goju]

true however my assumptions come from sparing and fighting guys with little or no grappling, against these guys getting the takedowns is not that hard, neither is getting to your feet or staying on your feet to hurt them when they are down there..and my experience with grappling and training knifes comes from sparring guys with little grappling they found it hard to get the blade out...how someone with grappling opened me up easily when i did it with them.....hence I said its easier to use a knife if you can grapple and that relying on one instead of learning the basics is just silly and dangerous

oh i completely agree when i sparred the shaolin do person from this board here i took his back put him in a body trangle and clamped on a rear naked choke with virtually no fight from him at all( guy never grappled)

the basic grappling from goju combined with the year of bjji did would be enough to handle a street encounter( unless i am not picking a fight with an abu dhabi champion on my way to the grocery store )

but a person who doesnt know anything will 99 precent of the time just lie flat on his back and get easily controlled by someone whos knowledge of grappling is even basic(imagine if it was advanced)

hell i would be suprised if said person would even have the sense to up kick thus he wouldnt be able to create enough distance to pull out his knife

and with a grappling scenario you would have to have the knowledge of how to create space in order to whip out your knife

[Scott R. Brown]

Frost....I didnt bother reading your all your posts since my last post, i dont have the time....

You didnt read what i wrote very carefully. And dont know what you are talking about with some of what I have read that you have written.

I have choked out 2 brown belt grapplers, one who was 40-60 pounds heavier than me, 4 times, and one, the instructor's son, lighter than me by maybe 10-20 lbs., 3 times. it might be best not to draw too many conclusions about someone you know nothing about. both were in their early twenties and I was in my 40's.

I was also set up by my friends who were trying to embarrass me by setting me up with these two as ringers, LOL!

The guy who was bigger than me was known at that time for no one being able to choke him out, even when he allowed them secure the hold ahead of time. 4 times I choked him out; someone who could not be choked out by his instructor or other students.

so probably it is best not to spout too much about someone you know nothing about!

Yeah yeah i know I was lucky or he just wasnt that experienced right? sure whatever makes you able to sleep with yourself at night.

I also know California law. It is legal to kill a blackbelt who is threatening you if you can demonstrate a fear for your life. It is already decided law, from about 20 years ago.

I worked for nearly 15 years in the Dept of Corrections. I know guys who would laugh at nearly all MA wannabe tough guys. They will kill you without blinking an eye. some of them will be happy to fu(k your empty skull too. Most people only pretend to be tough because it makes them feel good about themselves. These guys really are tough. They have been shot and dont care. they have been stabbed and dont care. I have even known two that attempted to kill another inmate knowing they would be and were immediately shot for the attempt.

It is doubtful you have much experience with people like this, i worked amongst them for many many years. I have read their files. They have done stuff hannibal lecture has and worse. And they dont care about you mma wannabes. they fight to win and they wont care about sneaking up behind you and braining you with a hammer or running yo down with a car or torching you while you are still alive. They arent going to give anyone the chance.

MMA is for dueling not fighting real bad guys. it is for wannabes who think that fighting others makes them real men, but it is not. It is just another toy making insecure people feel they are worthwhile.

Most mma i have spoken to in the past years have your attitude. they think they can defeat anyone and nothing competes with what they know. They are wrong and have the same fantasy as other martial artists who think their martial arts are the best.

If you are not prepared to fight someone with a hidden knife. if you think you can defeat someone who you are not prepared to fight then good luck to you when you get surprised. If you think you can dump him on his head before he slits an artery. he will mostly likely do it as you close for the takedown. in fact you will probably run right into his knife.

[Dragonzbane76]

It is doubtful you have much experience with people like this, i worked amongst them for many many years. I have read their files. They have done stuff hannibal lecture has and worse. And they dont care about you mma wannabes. they fight to win and they wont care about sneaking up behind you and braining you with a hammer or running yo down with a car or torching you while you are still alive. They arent going to give anyone the chance.

MMA is for dueling not fighting real bad guys. it is for wannabes who think that fighting others makes them real men, but it is not. It is just another toy making insecure people feel they are worthwhile.

Most mma i have spoken to in the past years have your attitude. they think they can defeat anyone and nothing competes with what they know. They are wrong and have the same fantasy as other martial artists who think their martial arts are the best.

If you are not prepared to fight someone with a hidden knife. if you think you can defeat someone who you are not prepared to fight then good luck to you when you get surprised. If you think you can dump him on his head before he slits an artery. he will mostly likely do it as you close for the takedown. in fact you will probably run right into his knife.

sounds like a biased opinion of the MMA scene. I could agree that there are a lot of idiots attached to it. But I could also state that there are some basement dwelling mama's boys thinking they are decendents of Jedi who practice TMA. So your opinion is that it's all a farce. Learning MMA to defend yourself? MMA comes from other sources of MA's so therefore all MA's are worthless in a real fight? You confuse with your statement.

I worked corrections for years and your examples are of the extreme. Yes there are people like that but not all and most I've worked with always used opportunity more than any other weapon if presented with it.

Also we stated using a tazer when grappling to simulate knife defense. You'd be suprised at the results one learns when grappling with it. Your more aware of things for sure and grappling nullifies a lot.

[Scott R. Brown]

hi dragon, i understand it appears i think mma is a farce. to the contrary. what do u think i defeated the brownbelts with? i think MOST martial artists live in a fantasyland. INCLUDING mmartists. most ma's i have come across have their sacred cows. anyone who says "i will dump him on his head before he can use a knife", or like one guy just said to me on another thread, " i'll get u before you can shoot me" is dreaming about something they know nothing about. they dont want to face their fantasy. that is what i am about, revealing the fantasy and trying to get to reality. most people here appear to be WAY over confident. many of the mma are the worst because they think i can defeat anything. this is their achilles heel. for example a REAL knifefighter will have a minimum of 4 knifes sereted around his body. that is the minimum. he will not show it to you and sat, "hey i'm a knifefighter! watch out for me!" he will lure you in and cut you before you know hw has a knife! as far as corections goes if you were hanging around the nicer low level institutions i can see how yoy would think that way. the level 3,4 and now 5 inmates are not that few. there are alot of them and most institutions have REAL fights with REAL weapons EVERYDAY. btw. i am not talking about dealing with these guys in the prisons. i am talking about the ones out in the REAL world who we have to be cautious of. and of course they use opportunity to strike. that is my pointmost people train to deal with the wannabes not REAL badguys. the guys who are like ninjas. they dont care what they have to do to win. there is no honor, no dueling rules. you wont know what hit you and you'll be daed or incapaciated. no amount or training prepares one for the one you dont see coming. i just get tired of all these wanabe tough guys thinking they know what they are talking anout when they are just as fantasyland as those they criticize. i dont play favorites. i'll criticize anyone with the head in dreamland! :D

[kfson]

Straight from the heart.
The fat has been cut.

[Frost]

Frost....I didnt bother reading your all your posts since my last post, i dont have the time....

You didnt read what i wrote very carefully. And dont know what you are talking about with some of what I have read that you have written.

I have choked out 2 brown belt grapplers, one who was 40-60 pounds heavier than me, 4 times, and one, the instructor's son, lighter than me by maybe 10-20 lbs., 3 times. it might be best not to draw too many conclusions about someone you know nothing about. both were in their early twenties and I was in my 40's.

I was also set up by my friends who were trying to embarrass me by setting me up with these two as ringers, LOL!

The guy who was bigger than me was known at that time for no one being able to choke him out, even when he allowed them secure the hold ahead of time. 4 times I choked him out; someone who could not be choked out by his instructor or other students.

so probably it is best not to spout too much about someone you know nothing about!

Yeah yeah i know I was lucky or he just wasnt that experienced right? sure whatever makes you able to sleep with yourself at night.

I also know California law. It is legal to kill a blackbelt who is threatening you if you can demonstrate a fear for your life. It is already decided law, from about 20 years ago.

I worked for nearly 15 years in the Dept of Corrections. I know guys who would laugh at nearly all MA wannabe tough guys. They will kill you without blinking an eye. some of them will be happy to fu(k your empty skull too. Most people only pretend to be tough because it makes them feel good about themselves. These guys really are tough. They have been shot and dont care. they have been stabbed and dont care. I have even known two that attempted to kill another inmate knowing they would be and were immediately shot for the attempt.

It is doubtful you have much experience with people like this, i worked amongst them for many many years. I have read their files. They have done stuff hannibal lecture has and worse. And they dont care about you mma wannabes. they fight to win and they wont care about sneaking up behind you and braining you with a hammer or running yo down with a car or torching you while you are still alive. They arent going to give anyone the chance.

MMA is for dueling not fighting real bad guys. it is for wannabes who think that fighting others makes them real men, but it is not. It is just another toy making insecure people feel they are worthwhile.

Most mma i have spoken to in the past years have your attitude. they think they can defeat anyone and nothing competes with what they know. They are wrong and have the same fantasy as other martial artists who think their martial arts are the best.

If you are not prepared to fight someone with a hidden knife. if you think you can defeat someone who you are not prepared to fight then good luck to you when you get surprised. If you think you can dump him on his head before he slits an artery. he will mostly likely do it as you close for the takedown. in fact you will probably run right into his knife.

oh right you have fought two brown belts......in what art exactly were they brown belts in...your knowledge of grappling is poor that is easy for all to see...as is your knowledge of MMA training and fighting

as for MMA being a toy making insecure people feel worthwhile..this coming from a guy whos answer to a question is stab them with your hidden knife is just a priceless remark thanks for the laugh:)

I know exactly how good and bad i am and what i can and can't make work...i am also mature enough to walk away from most confrontations...also i am secure enough not to walk around with a knife looking to slit artries but hey thats just me :)

[Frost]

sounds like a biased opinion of the MMA scene. I could agree that there are a lot of idiots attached to it. But I could also state that there are some basement dwelling mama's boys thinking they are decendents of Jedi who practice TMA. So your opinion is that it's all a farce. Learning MMA to defend yourself? MMA comes from other sources of MA's so therefore all MA's are worthless in a real fight? You confuse with your statement.

I worked corrections for years and your examples are of the extreme. Yes there are people like that but not all and most I've worked with always used opportunity more than any other weapon if presented with it.

Also we stated using a tazer when grappling to simulate knife defense. You'd be suprised at the results one learns when grappling with it. Your more aware of things for sure and grappling nullifies a lot.

what he said

[sanjuro_ronin]

As some one that has tried full contact stick work and knife ( blunt aluminum and shock knives) work I can say this:
Grappling a guy with a knife is a VERY good idea, control the blade arm, it will keep you from getting stabbed.
Drawing a blade is NOT easy when the other guy is tying you up or punching you in the face, even with emerson "wave" knives ( I know because I have tried it).
The rule of thumb is:
Neutralize and THEN draw.
Great H2H work leads to good fighting with a weapon.
Sticks are different of course, but still pretty bad, especially ASP's or pipes.
Again, close the distance, get in "under" the line of fire, control the weapon arm, take out the opponent.

If you guys really want so good advice on this, ask Dale.
STAB, RED ZONE and DBMA are of course the top level in these things.

[Frost]

As some one that has tried full contact stick work and knife ( blunt aluminum and shock knives) work I can say this:
Grappling a guy with a knife is a VERY good idea, control the blade arm, it will keep you from getting stabbed.
Drawing a blade is NOT easy when the other guy is tying you up or punching you in the face, even with emerson "wave" knives ( I know because I have tried it).
The rule of thumb is:
Neutralize and THEN draw.
Great H2H work leads to good fighting with a weapon.
Sticks are different of course, but still pretty bad, especially ASP's or pipes.
Again, close the distance, get in "under" the line of fire, control the weapon arm, take out the opponent.

If you guys really want so good advice on this, ask Dale.
STAB, RED ZONE and DBMA are of course the top level in these things.

the stab stuff is top notch karl is a great coach and a funny guy

neutralize and then draw.....now why didn't i think of putting it like that great advice thanks ronin and in line with what dale says and my own limited experiences

[sanjuro_ronin]

the stab stuff is top notch karl is a great coach and a funny guy

neutralize and then draw.....now why didn't i think of putting it like that great advice thanks ronin and in line with what dale says and my own limited experiences

Karl is a good guy.
If one is so inclined, one can take a look over the internet and find many videos of knife attacks and the results there of.
I got the DBMA video, "Die Less Often 3" ( I highly recommend the whole series for ANYONE that ants to see the reality of knife fighting) and in the video are clips of actual footages of people getting attacked by other(S) with knives.
Very graphic and shocking, yes, but very crucial to see.
There was one that was very disturbing ( well they all were) in which a group attacked one guy and beat and cut him good but the shocking and disturbing part was that, even after he was lying there, bleeding on the floor, with his girlfriend/female other crying at his side, one of them CAME BACK and stabbed him a few times, for no reason other than to stab him !

That is the mentality that one needs to understand.

[Dragonzbane76]

like I said scott there are idiots in all sectors TMA included. In all honesty I've met more fantasyland TMA's than MMA individuals. But that just might be me who knows, all I can say is yes their are a lot of people out there living there own dreams.

Weapons do thrown another demension into fighting and yes a lot of MMA are designed around a rule set. But to just disqualify it entirely and say that it does not work in a defense situation is nonsense. Grappling offers many great defenses against weapons as ronin and I both stated. MMA is not all about grappling there are many different avenues, which you seemed fixed on grappling is just MMA.

As for the corrections thing I worked supermax high level detention center. And yes they are a different animal all together when confrontations are concerned. But that's a whole other topic :)


i just get tired of all these wanabe tough guys thinking they know what they are talking anout when they are just as fantasyland as those they criticize. i dont play favorites. i'll criticize anyone with the head in dreamland!

And I state the same thing about the traditional guys most times. But i'm not saying that MMA doesn't have it's meatheaded idiots in there tapout gear.

[Scott R. Brown]

oh right you have fought two brown belts......in what art exactly were they brown belts in...your knowledge of grappling is poor that is easy for all to see...as is your knowledge of MMA training and fighting

as for MMA being a toy making insecure people feel worthwhile..this coming from a guy whos answer to a question is stab them with your hidden knife is just a priceless remark thanks for the laugh:)

I know exactly how good and bad i am and what i can and can't make work...i am also mature enough to walk away from most confrontations...also i am secure enough not to walk around with a knife looking to slit artries but hey thats just me :)

Typical mma wannabe reaction! If someone you DON"T KNOW does something you DON"T UNDERSTAND to qualified people YOU DON"T KNOW, IT COULDN'T have happened because it doesn't fit in your fantasyland view of MMA!

THEY WERE GRAPPLERS WHO COMPETED IN GRAPPLING CONTESTS!!!

I don't know anymore about them because it was over 10 years ago! I beat them both easily numerous times, LIVE WITH IT!!!

That is exactly the attitude of wannabe fantasyland people I am talking about!


As some one that has tried full contact stick work and knife ( blunt aluminum and shock knives) work I can say this:
Grappling a guy with a knife is a VERY good idea, control the blade arm, it will keep you from getting stabbed.
Drawing a blade is NOT easy when the other guy is tying you up or punching you in the face, even with emerson "wave" knives ( I know because I have tried it).
The rule of thumb is:
Neutralize and THEN draw.
Great H2H work leads to good fighting with a weapon.
Sticks are different of course, but still pretty bad, especially ASP's or pipes.
Again, close the distance, get in "under" the line of fire, control the weapon arm, take out the opponent.

If you guys really want so good advice on this, ask Dale.
STAB, RED ZONE and DBMA are of course the top level in these things.

The thing about knifefighters, and it is something people can't seem to get in their heads here on this BB is, you won't see the knife until AFTER you are already cut, bleeding and dying!

If the guy is showing you his knife, he is a novice and you at least have a chance to beat him. I had a guy pull a knife on me once. I took off my jacket and swung it at his knife and knocked the knife right out of his hand!! See what I mean? he showed me his knife......odds are he is a beginner! A real fighter kills you before you even know you are dead.

I went to high school with a guy who did just that! Guy walks up to him posturing, Guy is DEAD!!!!! Guy I know, in jail!! Knew he was going to jail! Didn't care he was going to jail!! REAL BADGUY!!!

THAT is the real world. NOT this piddly little barroom wannabe fights, "I'll meet you in the parking lot" pu$$y little duel fights! This was a REAL fight with a REAL bad guy and it was someone I knew.

Speaking of pu$$y little barroom duel fights:

I worked with a guy whose brother was with a friend at a bar who got called out into the parking lot to fight. As they were walking out my friend's brother, who was NOT a participant in anyway, only a spectator, was cleankocked on the way out the door, fell and hit his head, and has permanent brain damage.

Another story,

A guy I went to high school with walked up to a guy who was standing next to a wall. The guy had called him over. When he got near the guy he brained him with a pipe he had been hiding behind the wall. The victim didn't even know the guy didn't like him! REAL BADGUY!!!

Shall I tell more???? I got more!

My sister's husband, whom I have known since I was 12 and the guy who got me into the martial arts, had a friend who as an Army Ranger, who had killed people in combat, was a demolitions expert and went on secret mission in central America AND worked as a bouncer, AND was higher level blackbelt in Kempo was killed in his home by an ex-girlfriend with a .32 handgun. AND he tried to defend himself the autopsy said!

Hmmmm.....so much for all those guys who will dump someone on their heads or get to their assailant before they can be shot!!!!

But I know, it wont happen to anyone here because everyone here is way more prepared and trained IN MMA.......RIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!


Last story,

The guy I took my blackbelt test with over 30 years ago is at work. He gets into a fist fight with another guy. My friend is about to knock the guy out, guy pulls a gun on my friend. My friend, who is rather smart I would say, calmed himself down immediately and calmed down the guy with the gun. They both survived and no one went to jail!!! HMMMMM???? NO MMA!!!!!

Maybe not a REAL badguy, but anyone with a gun IS dangerous and can kill you before you can dump him on his head!!!

:rolleyes:DREAMERS:rolleyes:

[kung fu fighter]

Typical mma wannabe reaction! If someone you DON"T KNOW does something you DON"T UNDERSTAND to qualified people YOU DON"T KNOW, IT COULDN'T have happened because it doesn't fit in your fantasyland view of MMA!

THEY WERE GRAPPLERS WHO COMPETED IN GRAPPLING CONTESTS!!!

I don't know anymore about them because it was over 10 years ago! I beat them both easily numerous times, LIVE WITH IT!!!

That is exactly the attitude of wannabe fantasyland people I am talking about!



The thing about knifefighters, and it is something people can't seem to get in their heads here on this BB is, you won't see the knife until AFTER you are already cut, bleeding and dying!

If the guy is showing you his knife, he is a novice and you at least have a chance to beat him. I had a guy pull a knife on me once. I took off my jacket and swung it at his knife and knocked the knife right out of his hand!! See what I mean? he showed me his knife......odds are he is a beginner! A real fighter kills you before you even know you are dead.

I went to high school with a guy who did just that! Guy walks up to him posturing, Guy is DEAD!!!!! Guy I know, in jail!! Knew he was going to jail! Didn't care he was going to jail!! REAL BADGUY!!!

THAT is the real world. NOT this piddly little barroom wannabe fights, "I'll meet you in the parking lot" pu$$y little duel fights! This was a REAL fight with a REAL bad guy and it was someone I knew.

Speaking of pu$$y little barroom duel fights:

I worked with a guy whose brother was with a friend at a bar who got called out into the parking lot to fight. As they were walking out my friend's brother, who was NOT a participant in anyway, only a spectator, was cleankocked on the way out the door, fell and hit his head, and has permanent brain damage.

Another story,

A guy I went to high school with walked up to a guy who was standing next to a wall. The guy had called him over. When he got near the guy he brained him with a pipe he had been hiding behind the wall. The victim didn't even know the guy didn't like him! REAL BADGUY!!!

Shall I tell more???? I got more!

My sister's husband, whom I have known since I was 12 and the guy who got me into the martial arts, had a friend who as an Army Ranger, who had killed people in combat, was a demolitions expert and went on secret mission in central America AND worked as a bouncer, AND was higher level blackbelt in Kempo was killed in his home by an ex-girlfriend with a .32 handgun. AND he tried to defend himself the autopsy said!

Hmmmm.....so much for all those guys who will dump someone on their heads or get to their assailant before they can be shot!!!!

But I know, it wont happen to anyone here because everyone here is way more prepared and trained IN MMA.......RIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!


Last story,

The guy I took my blackbelt test with over 30 years ago is at work. He gets into a fist fight with another guy. My friend is about to knock the guy out, guy pulls a gun on my friend. My friend, who is rather smart I would say, calmed himself down immediately and calmed down the guy with the gun. They both survived and no one went to jail!!! HMMMMM???? NO MMA!!!!!

Maybe not a REAL badguy, but anyone with a gun IS dangerous and can kill you before you can dump him on his head!!!

:rolleyes:DREAMERS:rolleyes:

I completely agree with Scott!
Working as a full time bouncer and body guard for the last 15 years. I have had and seen my share of street fights. I even had a good friend of mine, whom was the UFC welterweight champion at the time that got stabbed in a parking lot when he was confronted by 4 guys. He doubled legged one guy and probably half killed him, but unfortuantely got stabbed 4 times by one of the other four. At the same time I had a wing chun student (who would probably have gotten distroyed in an MMA match), who also worked as a bouncer and routinely knocked out more than 5 guys at a time in street fights and even got shot at, at times. Luckily the bullets never hit him!

[Frost]

Karl is a good guy.
If one is so inclined, one can take a look over the internet and find many videos of knife attacks and the results there of.
I got the DBMA video, "Die Less Often 3" ( I highly recommend the whole series for ANYONE that ants to see the reality of knife fighting) and in the video are clips of actual footages of people getting attacked by other(S) with knives.
Very graphic and shocking, yes, but very crucial to see.
There was one that was very disturbing ( well they all were) in which a group attacked one guy and beat and cut him good but the shocking and disturbing part was that, even after he was lying there, bleeding on the floor, with his girlfriend/female other crying at his side, one of them CAME BACK and stabbed him a few times, for no reason other than to stab him !

That is the mentality that one needs to understand.

I am not underestimating the dangers of knifes...my original point was saying there is no need to learn grappling all you have to do is knife the guy as he shoots is stupid on a number of levels, both practically and legally, and that its hard to knife someone as they shoot unless you first learn to stop the takedown and then produce the knife and this means learning to grapple...just as its hard to produce one on the ground without having some grappling expereince...saying otherwise indicates to me both a lack of understanding about grappling both with and without knifes.

As i mentioned legally good luck not ending up in jail for knifing someone who is only grabbing you. you might as well ust carry a gun and shoot someone you feel might be about to harm you:rolleyes:

nothing stated so far by the person who brought this up changes my opinion on the above or the people who think this way

[sanjuro_ronin]

One most be familiar and as proficient as possible in fighting and that inclueds ALL aspects of fighting.
I am not a grappler, it is NOT my forte, even though I have a shodan in Judo and competed at the national level and had 2 years of BJJ and MMA and also did greco-roman and freestyel olympic wrestling.
I did those things to understand HOW to use what I do best when faced with a grappling situation.
Same goes for weapons.
You must learn how to deal with them under ALL circumstances so that you have a better CHANCE to survive.

[Lucas]

nice me 2 lollol

rofl!!!! i love your edit reason bawang. i hate white people too. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

I am not underestimating the dangers of knifes...my original point was saying there is no need to learn grappling all you have to do is knife the guy as he shoots is stupid on a number of levels, both practically and legally, and that its hard to knife someone as they shoot unless you first learn to stop the takedown and then produce the knife and this means learning to grapple...just as its hard to produce one on the ground without having some grappling expereince...saying otherwise indicates to me both a lack of understanding about grappling both with and without knifes.

As i mentioned legally good luck not ending up in jail for knifing someone who is only grabbing you. you might as well ust carry a gun and shoot someone you feel might be about to harm you:rolleyes:

nothing stated so far by the person who brought this up changes my opinion on the above or the people who think this way

Frost, As I recall I didn't say one should NOT learn to grapple. I said, "That is what I would practice IF you don't want to learn to grapple!

Having as many skills as possible and as much experience as possible is always a benefit. However, not all people want to grapple and even some are not able to grapple for whatever reason. There are things to learn that can give those people an advantage over grappling.

Grappling is a valuable skill to have in your arsenal, but if you think it is the be all that means you are invincible, as your posts imply you do, you are living in fantasyland and I hope you don't screw yourself or hurt someone whether intentionally or unintentionally in a fight. Because you will learn a more valuable lesson than grappling! You will learn how the legal system works and doesn't care that you know grappling! They will expect that you had a greater responsibility NOT to hurt your assailant.

People HAVE knifed others just from grabbing them. I refer you to that guy I knew who sliced the other guy's throat just for posturing in his face. When you touch anyone that does not want to be touched that is called assault and they may defend themselves. They may not legally stab or slice you, however we were not talking about someone "grabbing" another person! We were talking about someone trying to takedown another person. That is a prelude to great bodily injury due to the prevalence of armbars and choke outs used today. One can make a very good argument in court that they feared for their life or great bodily injury. At any rate, if you don't want to be stabbed I would stay out of fights. THAT is the lesson here!

People like you are more interested in thinking they are tough than seeing reality. REAL BAD guys don't pretend to be tough. They will just kill you and you won't see it coming. As with "kung fu fighter's" friend, when you are down grappling someone with your superman complex, his friends will be happy to kick you in the head and stab you in the back! Good luck if you survive and/or if you do not become permanently incapacitated for all your bravado!

If you think one cannot go to jail for choking someone out or breaking their arm or leg then what world are you living in? If you are attacked and you control the guy and then hurt him while he is in your control, you ARE going to jail and you WILL be sued by most people. ESPECIALLY the bad guys because they are the ones that whine and cry the most when they get hurt! They will try to kill or hurt you but you better not do anything to them!

If someone tries to grapple me I consider that a danger of great bodily injury. That justifies great bodily injury in return. Look at "kung fu fighter's" friend who did a double leg takedown and nearly killed the guy. Unless the guy threatened great bodily injury first, like with a gun or a knife, he is now responsible for damages civilly and criminally. If the guy hit his head on the ground during the takedown and gets knocked silly for life, as happened to my friend's brother, he will be sued for everything he has now and has in the future, just as my friend's brother did to his assailant!

You are very unrealistic. I hope you grow up before you really get screwed by a REAL bad guy or the legal system!:)

[omarthefish]

Right up until she chokes you unconscious.

It's actually more intense that way...er...uh...so I've heard. . . .:o

[sanjuro_ronin]

Racist?? Who is an idiot? Jap is just a shorter version of Japanese. I got called down for using the term, Chinc once. Racist I was called. But it only meant short for Chinese Communist. And being a Chinaman I don't see anything wrong or racist about it. So kiss my A$$.

WTF?
what is it with all this Ass kicking, ass kissing, ass licking, going on these days??

FLAMING !!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's actually more intense that way...er...uh...so I've heard. . . .:o

Caradine would agree.

[Scott R. Brown]

WTF?
what is it with all this Ass kicking, ass kissing, ass licking, going on these days??

I am unclear what you mean here.......I am sure most of us would agree an illustration would be helpful!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am unclear what you mean here.......I am sure most of us would agree an illustration would be helpful!

http://inyobusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/coco-butt-kissed.jpg

[Lucas]

is that ice t behind that booty?

[sanjuro_ronin]

is that ice t behind that booty?

yep, that's his woman !

[Lucas]

Baby got back!

[kfson]

Here you go:

http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/2007/01/31/previews/Shauna%20Sand%20Lamas-SGS-009943.jpg

[Lucas]

baby got front too!

[Knifefighter]

If you have skills, why not just develop your own techniques for ground fighting. Every system has something that can apply to the ground if you take it seriously. Jap jiujitsu has everything you need for ground fighting, and most any system will have. You just need to look at it closely and determine what you can use there and how to apply it most effectively.

LOL @ developing your own techs for groundfighting... once again proving that you are clueless about anything resembling full-contact fighting.

[Knifefighter]

The guy who was bigger than me was known at that time for no one being able to choke him out, even when he allowed them secure the hold ahead of time. 4 times I choked him out; someone who could not be choked out by his instructor or other students.

LOL... speaking of living in a fantasy world.

There is no credible submission grappling training facility anywhere where ANYONE who gives their neck will not be choked out by ALL intermediate and above grapplers in the school.

The fact that this guy was "unchokable" proves how clueless these guys were.

[Knifefighter]

Typical mma wannabe reaction! If someone you DON"T KNOW does something you DON"T UNDERSTAND to qualified people YOU DON"T KNOW, IT COULDN'T have happened because it doesn't fit in your fantasyland view of MMA!

No.. the reason we know is that we know that any credible sub grappler will be able to choke out ANYONE, no matter what the level, ability, or size if he gives him his neck. There are no unchokable people. Everyone has two carotid arteries that can be occluded.



I don't know anymore about them because it was over 10 years ago! I beat them both easily numerous times, LIVE WITH IT!!!

If that was the case, you would easily be able to enter a grappling tourney, do quite well and post some clips of you doing that. Since you are a poser, we know that won't ever happen, though.



The thing about knifefighters, and it is something people can't seem to get in their heads here on this BB is, you won't see the knife until AFTER you are already cut, bleeding and dying!

Not true at all. An intelligent, skilled, blade practitioner will have no problem displaying the blade as a deterrent to keep things from getting to the point of having to kill someone.



The guy I took my blackbelt test with over 30 years ago is at work. He gets into a fist fight with another guy. My friend is about to knock the guy out, guy pulls a gun on my friend. My friend, who is rather smart I would say, calmed himself down immediately and calmed down the guy with the gun. They both survived and no one went to jail!!! HMMMMM???? NO MMA!!!!!

Maybe not a REAL badguy, but anyone with a gun IS dangerous and can kill you before you can dump him on his head!!!

:rolleyes:DREAMERS:rolleyes:

Methinks you are the dreamer since you seem to think MMA is all about grappling and dumping someone on their head.

[KC Elbows]

LOL @ developing your own techs for groundfighting...

So the Gracies invented nothing?

[Knifefighter]

So the Gracies invented nothing?

The Gracies took an established grappling system and added to it from a variety of sources. They also took one aspect of it and based their strategy around that single aspect. They also took specific techniques and positions and made those more specialized for their strategies and tactics.

[KC Elbows]

The Gracies took an established grappling system and added to it from a variety of sources. They also took one aspect of it and based their strategy around that single aspect. They also took specific techniques and positions and made those more specialized for their strategies and tactics.


Inventing a style that doesn't resemble most of those sources.

I get your point, but the idea of stifling potential innovation because there already is a way something is done leads nowhere, and never has, in any field. Yes, knowing what there is to draw from is important, but the assumption that fighting is now perfectly codified and unchangeable based on dynamic changes in extremely recent history that are clearly still ongoing is as bad as being completely unaware of the current state, in the long run. The Gracies did not create their system by scoffing at the idea of innovation, so who should one follow, them or you?

I recognize that you are a skilled martial artist, but you are not, to my knowledge, an innovator, and so your assessment on what is is more valuable than your assessment of what can be.

[omarthefish]

Um....BJJ is hardly unrecognizeable as an outgrowth of Judo or Jujistsu.

Anyone not directly training in BJJ would have a hard time telling a Judo newaza session apart from a BJJ session. Same for Sambo.

As far as actual techniques go, when GJJ went public in the US there was not a single technique in their entire curriculum what was not in Judo somewhere. It was more their tactical framework and areas of specialty that were different.

Different? Sure. Not even resembling it's root arts? I don't think so.

[Scott R. Brown]

No.. the reason we know is that we know that any credible sub grappler will be able to choke out ANYONE, no matter what the level, ability, or size if he gives him his neck. There are no unchokable people. Everyone has two carotid arteries that can be occluded.

I was wondering how long it would take you to show up. You live in your own fantasy world too, so your opinion doesn't mean much to me! You are also the guy, many years ago, who posted against "one punch knockouts" except I have a friend who knows a prison inmate and former boxer who does it all the time. The last time I know about, he knocked a guy out when he was in his fifties! So your credibility is not very high with me!

This guy, from what I was told prior to grappling with him, was that he would let people get the hold on him and he could prevent the choke and no one was able to choke him out. Apparently even his instructor!

Of course it is wise to be skeptical on any internet discussion, so I do not blame you or anyone else for honest skepticism. However, you weren't there, you don't know the guy and you don't know me. I would expect "nearly" any EXPERT could choke that guy out. I never said I was an expert anyway. Only that I was able to choke him out many times, that he was a brown belt, he competed, and that he out weighed me by a significant amount.

Having said that, you weren't there so you are not a credible critic of the events!

I love how you grappling dreamers weren't there, but are so sure you know what happened!

A smart martial artist, someone who wished to learn from the experiences of others, instead of criticizing what they don't understand would perhaps ASK how it was done! But all we have here is dreamers who fancy themselves experts about subjects they are just beginners in!

I would have been happy to explain it to anyone who asked with a modicum of courtesy and maturity.


If that was the case, you would easily be able to enter a grappling tourney, do quite well and post some clips of you doing that. Since you are a poser, we know that won't ever happen, though.

I don't care about proving myself to internet wannabes and I don't have time to train properly for one.


Not true at all. An intelligent, skilled, blade practitioner will have no problem displaying the blade as a deterrent to keep things from getting to the point of having to kill someone.

Just because you call yourself "knifefigher" doesn't make you an expert on knifefighting! I am talking about REAL bad guys who really want to hurt you and don't care about the consequences anyway and NOT mature adults seeking to avoid conflict!


Methinks you are the dreamer since you seem to think MMA is all about grappling and dumping someone on their head.

You are spouting off when you haven't been paying attention very well. Next time try reading carefully before you mouth off about what you don't understand. Try following the theme of the discussion taking place before you make your false assumptions. I am not the one who mentioned dumping someone on their heads. I was responding to someone else's comment

Yeah I am the one dreaming because I ACTUALLY did something and there were witnesses there to see it! But you, who wasn't there, who know everything about it even you weren't there and haven't done it, know better! Just because you can't image someone more knowledgeable or capable than you doesn't mean they don't exist! And that is my big criticism with you grappling dreamers, you act like grappling arts makes you invincible and THAT is your weakness! Whenever one locks their mind into ONE way of viewing things they become vulnerable to what they do not understand. And THAT is why I was able to choke that guy out!

1) He was over-confident

2) Knowing he was over-confident, I used his over-confidence against him and attacked in a manner he was unfamiliar with defending against! How did I know he was unfamiliar with my method? I didn't! I started out testing him to see what he would do! Based upon his reactions I determined his probable weakness and attacked it. Interestingly enough I used pretty much the same method of attack each time I got him in a vulnerable situation and he couldn't adjust because he didn't know what to do to defend against it. He couldn't figure out what I was doing even though he had a sideline kibitzer telling him how to defend against me. And when his sideline kibitzer asked to come onto the floor to show him how to defend against what I was doing, and then I choked him out a few times too.

3) The method I used has been used by strategic thinkers for millennia. I actually learned about if from reading about Alexander the Great.

A) Determine your enemies abilities, strengths and weakness!
B) Attack his weakness with a means he is unfamiliar with defending against!

I have also been able to keep from being pinned or even taken down effectively by "some" experienced wrestlers.

When you are out classed in ability, size or power you must rely upon strategy and tactics. If your opponent is less experienced than you or less intelligent than you, you have a chance to defeat him.

How do you think Alexander defeated the Persians, or Ali defeated Foreman? By being smart! If you can't be strong and capable, be smart!! It is that easy!

Rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water, perhaps try THINKING about how one could do something like that. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean no one else has!

As I have said in the past, grappling is a good thing to learn, but it is not the end of all martial arts, it does not make one un-defeatable; realizing this is where dreaming ends and reality starts!

Since you cannot imagine anything other than your own narrow view you are the dreamer. Since I have had experience doing just what I have said, I am the one living in reality here!

Good luck pulling your head out of your A$$!

[Frost]

LOL... speaking of living in a fantasy world.

There is no credible submission grappling training facility anywhere where ANYONE who gives their neck will not be choked out by ALL intermediate and above grapplers in the school.

The fact that this guy was "unchokable" proves how clueless these guys were.

I wouldn't bother its useless to argue with the guy, this is a man who suggested that if you don’t want to learn to grapple then just carry a knife and stab him here here and here and cut this and that artery, and when I pointed out it’s not that easy to deploy and knife someone if you have no grappling experience and that doing so might get you in trouble with the law started to call me a wanna a be tough guy and delusional and went on and on about real knife fighters and bad men.....it’s just not worth it

[sanjuro_ronin]

In terms of Newaza, GJJ is almost identical to Kosen Judo.
What GJJ/BJJ did was emphasize more the "vale tudo" aspect and deal with strikes.
Something that Kosen Judo didn't/doesn't do, as far as I recall.

[Knifefighter]

II recognize that you are a skilled martial artist, but you are not, to my knowledge, an innovator, and so your assessment on what is is more valuable than your assessment of what can be.

Once you get to a certain level, almost everyone becomes an innovator, taking what one has learned and putting one's own spin on it, developing new strategies and tactics, and sometimes coming up with a completely different style.

However, you have to first be skilled enough in the base activity to be able to do this. BJJ has become a different system from judo only because the practitioners have put so much time on the mat.

Good luck innovating or "inventing" in groundfighting when you have little or no experience there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The popularity of submission grappling and the increase in participation in MMA by fighters from other systems, all have caused an evolution in BJJ.
While there are only so many ways to choke or lock a limb, the techniques for getting there and variations have become more innovative.

[Frost]

Good luck innovating or "inventing" in groundfighting when you have little or no experience there.

you see how well people do with inventing takedowns and takedown defences with ittle or know expereincevideos are posted here all the time...i shudder to think what they would come up with on the ground:eek:

[Knifefighter]

I was wondering how long it would take you to show up. You live in your own fantasy world too, so your opinion doesn't mean much to me! You are also the guy, many years ago, who posted against "one punch knockouts" except I have a friend who knows a prison inmate and former boxer who does it all the time. The last time I know about, he knocked a guy out when he was in his fifties! So your credibility is not very high with me!

That's OK, your credibility is at the bottom of the barrel with most people.


This guy, from what I was told prior to grappling with him, was that he would let people get the hold on him and he could prevent the choke and no one was able to choke him out. Apparently even his instructor!

Which would pretty much prove that even the instructor didn't know what he was doing.


I love how you grappling dreamers weren't there, but are so sure you know what happened!

Having decades experience as a grappler gives me a pretty good idea of what can and cannot be done in that realm.




I don't care about proving myself to internet wannabes and I don't have time to train properly for one.

Yet you seem to care about proving yourself by writing long diatribes about what you have done.


Just because you can't image someone more knowledgeable or capable than you doesn't mean they don't exist! And that is my big criticism with you grappling dreamers, you act like grappling arts makes you invincible and THAT is your weakness! Whenever one locks their mind into ONE way of viewing things they become vulnerable to what they do not understand. And THAT is why I was able to choke that guy out!

LOL @ assuming I am a "grappler". I guess that shows how "strategic" your thinking is. Some how I doubt the great strategic planners would promote assuming something like this.


Interestingly enough I used pretty much the same method of attack each time I got him in a vulnerable situation and he couldn't adjust because he didn't know what to do to defend against it. He couldn't figure out what I was doing even though he had a sideline kibitzer telling him how to defend against me. And when his sideline kibitzer asked to come onto the floor to show him how to defend against what I was doing, and then I choked him out a few times too.

Hey, I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please explain your technique.

[Scott R. Brown]

I wouldn't bother its useless to argue with the guy, this is a man who suggested that if you don’t want to learn to grapple then just carry a knife and stab him here here and here and cut this and that artery, and when I pointed out it’s not that easy to deploy and knife someone if you have no grappling experience and that doing so might get you in trouble with the law started to call me a wanna a be tough guy and delusional and went on and on about real knife fighters and bad men.....it’s just not worth it

And you are the one who plans to dump someone on their head before you are dead or mortally wounded. What you "think" you know can kill you as quickly as what you don't know!

You are in living is the fantasy world of a dueler which is a main flaw of many grapplers, because you train with a direct face off manner, but this is not a real world fight. This is not real fighting with real bad guys. When any inmate attacks, the guys I consider real bad guys, of course not all of them, but many of them, they do not stand there and as if saying, "Hey, lets face off and fight, dude!" They sneak up behind you and stab or slice your throat 4 or 5 times before you know you are being attacked. I have known staff and inmates that have been attacked in this manner and not just with stabbing or slicing implements, but with bludgeons as well.

This is how it is done with people who really want to hurt you

You may want to refer back once again to the post by "kung fu fighter" who has actual experience in the trenches with people who REALLY want to hurt you and don't care about the consequences; people who don't duel, they fight to win by any means necessary! Specifically the part where his grappling acquaintance was repeatedly stabbed after he "dumped" one of his opponents "on his head"!


That's OK, your credibility is at the bottom of the barrel with most people.

I see, so you sit around with "most people" and discuss my credibility then? At best you can say it is "at the bottom" with you and perhaps a few who think the same way you do, ummmm that would be Frost so far, but apparently not those who really work with bad guys like the bouncers who post here, of which "kung fu fighter" is only one!

Fortunate for me I don't care what you think or just about anyone else here!

Interesting how those with real world experience have repeatedly confirmed what I have said in the past, not just "kung fu fighter", but others who have worked as bouncers on this board, when I have engaged in discussions like this in the past!


Which would pretty much prove that even the instructor didn't know what he was doing.

Maybe so, maybe not! Since you don't know the instructor or the kid I grappled you can't really know! I do not know what the specific set up was either since I wasn't there. I only know what I overheard! I do know that many of those who tried to choke him out were NOT grapplers, however! You guys are acting like I choked a professional here! It was no big deal!

The point is that overconfidence in what you think you know can be dangerous. I have no overconfidence. At that time, with this guy, I was a "one trick pony"! Once he figured out how to defend against my tactic, I would have had to innovate or die. I most likely would have been taken by him repeatedly after he figured me out because I have no depth!

I used tactics over skill because I "knew" skill was my weakness! THAT is the message here! In the world of REAL bad guys, think about what you are doing and don't be over confident, because there is always someone out there who will lure you in and take you with something you do not understand!

BTW, previously I mentioned it was 10 years ago, upon closer reflection, it turns out it was closer to 15 years ago.


Having decades experience as a grappler gives me a pretty good idea of what can and cannot be done in that realm.

Uh huh! So did the Persians fighting Alexander. The Persians were the greatest power in the Western world at the time. They thought they "knew" everything too and were soundly trounced repeatedly by someone who fought smart!

I do not mind skeptical attitudes, I have one myself and I appreciate them. However, it is foolish to disregard what one doesn't understand. If you had really thought it through a bit more ASKING would have demonstrated a more open-minded approach.


Yet you seem to care about proving yourself by writing long diatribes about what you have done.

Hmmmm, posting on a BB for my own enjoyment does not equal "caring"! Explaining a point does not equal a diatribe! If you do not like long posts, perhaps avoid them yourself.


LOL @ assuming I am a "grappler". I guess that shows how "strategic" your thinking is. Some how I doubt the great strategic planners would promote assuming something like this.

Hmmmmmm, again, SO you have 10 years of grappling experience by your own admission, presume to lecture others on grappling based upon your experience, but consider it "non-strategic thinking" when someone is commenting on grappling on a thread about grappling?

I do not recall calling you a grappler at least I did not in the comment you were responding too. I referred to you as a "grappling dreamer" which refers to people who have delusions of grandeur concerning grappling! You have displayed here a fixed mind set concerning grappling, this is a weakness that may be exploited by an opponent who REALLY wants to hurt you! These "false dreams" (assumptions and incomplete understanding about grappling) makes one a "grappling dreamer" in my estimation!

Perhaps it is your own assumptions you should be examining! Somehow I think you should stick to commenting about what you have 10 years experience with and avoid rhetorical jousting.


Hey, I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please explain your technique.

If you were happy to give it the benefit of the doubt you would have done so from the start. I have mentioned this event a number of times on this BB over the past 10 years. You have had ample time to ask me what actually happened. You haven't!

Instead you chose to deride my comments without getting all the facts and regularly ridicule others who do not share your narrow view, but NOW you want me to believe you will give it the benefit of the doubt? Your actions and attitude have not demonstrated this in the past!

Your comments are no different than most people's comments here, "criticize what you do not understand first" before you think it though.

My comments are meant to draw attention to the fixed attitude many grapplers have. It is not much different than the ninja craze of the 70's and 80's. People get into grappling and think they know fighting. While grappling is "one" form of fighting, not all fighting is grappling. Much of it is down and dirty and truly dangerous!

If a student is fixed into a grappling mind set, they are in for a real awakening, just as when a forms dancer finds out they can't really fight. The difference is a grappler has a reasonable chance against most people when the fight is a duel, dancers have a much lesser of a chance. Their weaknesses are apparent to those who fight dirty! This does not apply to all grapplers and it may not apply to you. If it doesn't then you should understand what I am trying to say here! If you cannot understand what I am trying to say here, then you do not have as much experience/understanding/knowledge as you might wish you had.

Be that as it may, If you are care at all, PM me in a month or so, when heads have cooled down, and I will be happy to have a private, adult, conversation with you concerning my experience.

It is immaterial to me either way!

[Knifefighter]

Perhaps it is your own assumptions you should be examining! Somehow I think you should stick to commenting about what you have 10 years experience with and avoid rhetorical jousting.

Oh, you mean like knife work and how it applies to grappling? Oh no, I guess not... that would be closer to 25 years experience.

[Scott R. Brown]

Oh, you mean like knife work and how it applies to grappling? Oh no, I guess not... that would be closer to 25 years experience.

You have made no meaningful comments in agreement or disagreement with my comments on knifefighting, but since we are throwing around time of study in the martial arts, I have been studying the martial arts in all its aspects including knifefighting, stick, sword and grappling, although grappling rarely in a formal setting, for 37 years, so I will say, "So what!" to your 25 years!

But this is not about time spent in training, it is about having a beneficial mental attitude as well as strategy and tactics. I have made that clear from the beginning. The tendency here is for the grapplers to have fantasies about their capabilities based upon a misunderstanding of fighting and fighting strategies. They tend to have a fixed view, this is very common with beginners and even many advanced practitioners who have yet to mature.

What happens in most of these discussions is, it turns into a pi$$ing contest over who did what, who can take who and who is the toughest. This avoids addressing my point because of the beginner's mind of those who cannot see past their fantasies. I am not interested in pretending I am tougher than anyone, I am interested in the REALITY of fighting, NOT the fantasy! I am addressing a specific aspect of fighting in relation to people's attitudes about grappling which is the assumptions, by some, that skill in grappling translates into skill in fighting a REAL fight with REAL bad guys. Grappling is primarily a duel, real fighting is not necessarily a duel. If one is locked into the duel mindset they are not well prepared for a real fight. If one is only interested in fighting the ring, it does not matter. If they choose to be prepared for any kind of REAL fight, then knowing your flaws is imperative.

For someone like Frost who is so over confident he thinks he can dump a skilled knifefighter on his head before he gets mortally wounded, his ignorance could be fatal should he ever meet up with reality. Therefore, it is a necessity in the minds of some of us to try to educate those, who live in a fantasy, about REALITY! If they choose to ignore the advice, that is their prerogative, to their own benefit or detriment as time will tell.

If this does not apply to you, there is no need for you to stick your nose into a conversation that you do not understand!

It is irrelevant whether you guys think I was able to choke out a brown belt, it is irrelevant whether he was skilled or not skilled as I think he was or as you think he was, you are missing the point because of your narrow view.

People get too caught up with their competitive attitudes and cannot see the forest for their egos. The points are:

1) The brown belt was over confident in his ability.

2) He had the same attitude many have here. Grappling is the be all and end all to fighting.

3) He did not recognize his narrow view and ignorance of the many varied aspects of fighting.

4) Because of Number 3, he was unprepared for a form of attack with which he was unfamiliar. This is because its was outside what many consider to be formal grappling techniques. He never considered being attacked in the manner I did, and therefore I was successful because he never prepared himself for that form of attack. This is what will happen to Frost when a REAL knifefighter attacks him, god forbid! And as a professed knifefighter you should know this and address this instead of nitpicking an argument you do not understand!

5) A person, it doesn't matter whether it was me or anyone else, took advantage of his over-confidence and ignorance to an advantage.

THIS is the meaning and warning of my comments. I am NOT saying, "LOOK AT ME!!! I took out an experienced grappling fool!" I have never said that! My point is everyone is vulnerable to an attack that is unexpected, they are unfamiliar with, and they are not able to defend against because of their flaws of attitude and understanding.

If you want to argue against me, start by arguing against my point and stop reading into it according to your own preconceived and rather narrow view. You are attacking me personally for an action I actually performed and of which you have no knowledge and avoiding addressing the point my comment is meant to illustrate!

Try getting off your high horse and read what is being said and think about it apart from your narrow view and ego investment, because it has made you misunderstand what is being said!:)

[SoCo KungFu]

You are in living is the fantasy world of a dueler which is a main flaw of many grapplers, because you train with a direct face off manner, but this is not a real world fight. This is not real fighting with real bad guys. When any inmate attacks, the guys I consider real bad guys, of course not all of them, but many of them, they do not stand there and as if saying, "Hey, lets face off and fight, dude!" They sneak up behind you and stab or slice your throat 4 or 5 times before you know you are being attacked. I have known staff and inmates that have been attacked in this manner and not just with stabbing or slicing implements, but with bludgeons as well.


WTF does this have to do with grappling? In this situation anybody is @$$fuked. Johny McWingChun is just as dead as the next guy....

Bottom line is regardless of what you do and how bad ass you THINK you are, if someone wants to hurt you they'll find a way. H2H skills are trivial in the face of a scenario like this, and that goes especially so for the rampant ineffectiveness that is all things these days kungfu. Some threats in the world, you're just SOL. That said, in the event of a threat I CAN meet head on, I'll take my superior training methods over some dip****'s "street" experience any day.

[Knifefighter]

Grappling is primarily a duel, real fighting is not necessarily a duel.

And real fighting more often than not involves grappling.



For someone like Frost who is so over confident he thinks he can dump a skilled knifefighter on his head before he gets mortally wounded, his ignorance could be fatal should he ever meet up with reality.

I think his response was more towards your statement that, instead of learning how to defend grappling by learning some grappling, you would simple stab a grappler, something that is not as simple as it may seem.



People get too caught up with their competitive attitudes and cannot see the forest for their egos. The points are:

1) The brown belt was over confident in his ability.

2) He had the same attitude many have here. Grappling is the be all and end all to fighting.

3) He did not recognize his narrow view and ignorance of the many varied aspects of fighting.

4) Because of Number 3, he was unprepared for a form of attack with which he was unfamiliar. This is because its was outside what many consider to be formal grappling techniques.

Actually, if anything, your statements reveal you to be pretty ignorant of grappling and living in a fantasy world where that is concerned.



And as a professed knifefighter you should know this and address this instead of nitpicking an argument you do not understand!

As a professed knifefighter, you should know that sticking a blade in someone doesn't guarantee that he will not end up killing you instead with your own knife.


My point is everyone is vulnerable to an attack that is unexpected, they are unfamiliar with, and they are not able to defend against because of their flaws of attitude and understanding.

As are you because it doesn't sound like you've done much grappling combined with blade work.

[Knifefighter]

When any inmate attacks, the guys I consider real bad guys, of course not all of them, but many of them, they do not stand there and as if saying, "Hey, lets face off and fight, dude!" They sneak up behind you and stab or slice your throat 4 or 5 times before you know you are being attacked. I have known staff and inmates that have been attacked in this manner and not just with stabbing or slicing implements, but with bludgeons as well.

I'm guessing you don't realize that your best chance of survival in this type of situation is understanding how to grapple against someone with a weapon.

[Scott R. Brown]

WTF does this have to do with grappling? In this situation anybody is @$$fuked. Johny McWingChun is just as dead as the next guy....

Bottom line is regardless of what you do and how bad ass you THINK you are, if someone wants to hurt you they'll find a way. H2H skills are trivial in the face of a scenario like this, and that goes especially so for the rampant ineffectiveness that is all things these days kungfu. Some threats in the world, you're just SOL.

What this has to do is make the point that grappling is NOT the be all and end all of fighting like most grappler wannabes think! But that is not the same thing as saying it is not good to know, which is what you guys tend to think whenever someone criticizes your precious grappling!

LOL!! You two are not paying attention very well. This thread was started by a guy who doesn't want to grapple!!

If someone doesn't want to grapple they must devise other methods of dealing with attackers including, grapplers!!

Pull your heads out of your narrow views about blindly defending grappling, which I never said was a waste of time, and address the point of the thread!


That said, in the event of a threat I CAN meet head on, I'll take my superior training methods over some dip****'s "street" experience any day.

Look back as "kung fu fighter's" post about a grappler who was unprepared for more attackers and was seriously stabbed "while" he was busy grappling! According to "kung fu fighter" this guy was a pro, yet did not have the correct mind set and he paid for it.

This is a good example of my point. An experienced grappler with an unrealistic expectation of a street fight.

Try engaging your thinking cap a bit here!

I would take superior training too, but before anything else I would take a gun. It takes less training and works better.

And I would take strategy and tactics too.


And real fighting more often than not involves grappling.

That is not the point of this thread! Pay attention!


I think his response was more towards your statement that, instead of learning how to defend grappling by learning some grappling, you would simple stab a grappler, something that is not as simple as it may seem

And my post was in response to a guy who DOESN'T WANT TO LEARN TO GRAPPLE!!!

The answer to that ISN"T "learn to grapple" because he already said he doesn't want too!

Therefore I gave an alternative. And Frost comes across with some fantasy about dumping some one their heads before he can get mortally wounded!

Then you come back with an ill-informed response to what I said because you cannot seem to follow the theme of the thread or understand a complete thought!


Actually, if anything, your statements reveal you to be pretty ignorant of grappling and living in a fantasy world where that is concerned.

That is your response to everyone who disagrees with your fantasy about grappling!

You are either dumb as a door or are intentionally being obtuse!

If you were as experienced as you claim you would understand that strategy and tactics are part of fighting. When faced with someone who outclasses you with skill, size or other abilities, one must out think them. If you can't understand that too bad for you!

Everything I posted in my 1-5 points is understandable for anyone who wishes to think about it and not just argue for arguments sake.

It has got nothing to do with grappling per se, it is an example about over-confidence and narrowed perspective and how one with little skill can overcome someone with greater skill by out thinking them.


As a professed knifefighter, you should know that sticking a blade in someone doesn't guarantee that he will not end up killing you instead with your own knife.

As a professed knifefighter, you should know that there is no guarantee that one will NOT get a mortal or crippling wound in a knife fight against a skilled knifefighter.

Secondly if one is sticking rather than slicing they are still a novice. Not that one never sticks. You take the targets of opportunity, but one attacks to diminish abilities of your opponent first as these are usually the easiest targets to get too, EXCEPT when someone is foolish enough to close with you. Then numerous vulnerable spots become easily within reach.

Yes an experienced grappler may try to control the weapon! But as an experienced knifefighter you know that an REAL knifefighter probably has more than one knife, can fight with either hand, AND will anticipate you will try to control his weapon and therefore will attack you in a vulnerable spot ON YOUR WAY IN!!!! Which is when one is vulnerable!

BUT as an experienced, professed, knifefighter, you knew that, RIGHT???


As are you because it doesn't sound like you've done much grappling combined with blade work.

Duh!!!!

Not because I am not experienced with grappling with a knife wielder, but because EVERYONE IS!!!!

The advantage I have is I know it and am not afraid to admit it to myself or others!


I'm guessing you don't realize that your best chance of survival in this type of situation is understanding how to grapple against someone with a weapon.

No my best chance of survival is to shoot the guy with a gun!!!

Not having a gun....RUN!!!

Not having the opportunity to run, have a longer weapon!!!!

Not having a longer weapon, having an equal weapon!!!!

Not having an equal weapons, avoidance!!!!

Not being able to avoid, perhaps grappling!!!

Hmmmm, grappling is last on the list.......I thought you had 25 years of experience!:rolleyes:

In trying to be smarter by half you are ending up looking dumber x 2!

[Knifefighter]

Secondly if one is sticking rather than slicing they are still a novice. Not that one never sticks. You take the targets of opportunity, but one attacks to diminish abilities of your opponent first as these are usually the easiest targets to get too, EXCEPT when someone is foolish enough to close with you. Then numerous vulnerable spots become easily within reach.

Bingo! Just as I thought.

You have no prison back ground. You are one of the myriad of pretend, fantasy, American-trained FMA "knifefighters" who fell for the line of bullsh!t sold about slicing and winning by "attrition". If someone is claiming slicing, he's never been in a real knife fight before and never seen a real knife attack. You are the one living in a fantasy, pretend world.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Knifefighter]

Not because I am not experienced with grappling with a knife wielder, but because EVERYONE IS!!!!

Umm... speaking of living with blinders on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THW-c6E5nvs

[SoCo KungFu]

What this has to do is make the point that grappling is NOT the be all and end all of fighting like most grappler wannabes think! But that is not the same thing as saying it is not good to know, which is what you guys tend to think whenever someone criticizes your precious grappling!

LOL!! You two are not paying attention very well. This thread was started by a guy who doesn't want to grapple!!

If someone doesn't want to grapple they must devise other methods of dealing with attackers including, grapplers!!

Pull your heads out of your narrow views about blindly defending grappling, which I never said was a waste of time, and address the point of the thread!


You're right I'm not going to read post after post of dumb@$$ery. You're point was just that, idiocy. Yeah tell dude to go knifing people because the big bad scary men all going shank you in dark alleys. Here's a thought, stay the fuk out dark alleys. You're retarded scenario has nothing to do with the point of the thread. It just shows that some people are going to do whatever it takes to hurt you and I don't give a **** if you have a gun in you belt if some thug Carlton Fisks your skull with a lead pipe from behind your back you're screwed. But yeah go blade every Tom **** and Harry for looking at you wrong and see how far that gets you. You're a corrections official, your legal "expertise" means jack. Yall need to quite posturing like some e-attorney on things you don't know the details of, that goes not just for you but all.



Look back as "kung fu fighter's" post about a grappler who was unprepared for more attackers and was seriously stabbed "while" he was busy grappling! According to "kung fu fighter" this guy was a pro, yet did not have the correct mind set and he paid for it.

This is a good example of my point. An experienced grappler with an unrealistic expectation of a street fight.

Try engaging your thinking cap a bit here!

I would take superior training too, but before anything else I would take a gun. It takes less training and works better.

And I would take strategy and tactics too.


kung fu fighters post was bull**** and you're a gullible clown if you believe it. No kff said not only was it a pro but a UFC champion. Carlos Newton is the only one that fits that bill and he was stabbed trying to protect a friend from being beaten by a gang of what reports said at least 5 men one of which ended up slinging a blade. No f'n **** sherlock of course he's going to get beat (and stabbed). Oh but how convenient kff's wing chun student just regularly knocks out "up to 5 guys at a time." ..cough...bull****...

Engage YOUR thinking cap dunce. Quite coming up with ******* onehanded scenarios that nobody wins. You really shouldn't need more than a single digit IQ to know if someone whips a blade on you, you are at a disadvantage. Its interesting though isn't it that all the great blade warriors of history had some sort of grappling art though huh? You know samurai and jiujitsu, gladiators and wrestling...wonder why that is. Don't think to deep, you might burn in the molten lava.

[Knifefighter]

Mr. Brown has pretty much given himself away as a pretend, theoretical, non-fighting, fantasy, larping poser.

[goju]

holy cow!

://homepage.mac.com/nancymorris/.Pictures/internet_fight.jpg

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/rro/lowres/rron449l.jpg

[Frost]

For someone like Frost who is so over confident he thinks he can dump a skilled knifefighter on his head before he gets mortally wounded, his ignorance could be fatal should he ever meet up with reality. Therefore, it is a necessity in the minds of some of us to try to educate those, who live in a fantasy, about REALITY! If they choose to ignore the advice, that is their prerogative, to their own benefit or detriment as time will tell.

If this does not apply to you, there is no need for you to stick your nose into a conversation that you do not understand!

It is irrelevant whether you guys think I was able to choke out a brown belt, it is irrelevant whether he was skilled or not skilled as I think he was or as you think he was, you are missing the point because of your narrow view.
:)

me over confident LMAO you are the one saying it’s easy to stab a grappler here here and here or cut this and that artery, all I said was in my experience in grappling with knifes and with what I have read about others experience this is hard to do unless you have grappling experience, and that knifing someone just because they grab you is a stupid thing to do and will get you in trouble with the law. Where did I say I could survive a knife attack, where did I say I could beat a skilled knife fighter? for f(cks sake why am I arguing with someone who admits he only read some of my posts and made up the rest to fit his own little idea of what grapplers are and are not:rolleyes:

As for the brown belt thing I call bullsh*t you have no clue about grappling or MMA fighting at all. I can grapple yes, I can also strike and play with weapons, I do the first quite well, the second worse but ok, and with weapons I suck, but hey at least I know my limitations unlike some:rolleyes:

[Frost]

You're right I'm not going to read post after post of dumb@$$ery. You're point was just that, idiocy. Yeah tell dude to go knifing people because the big bad scary men all going shank you in dark alleys. Here's a thought, stay the fuk out dark alleys. You're retarded scenario has nothing to do with the point of the thread. It just shows that some people are going to do whatever it takes to hurt you and I don't give a **** if you have a gun in you belt if some thug Carlton Fisks your skull with a lead pipe from behind your back you're screwed. But yeah go blade every Tom **** and Harry for looking at you wrong and see how far that gets you. You're a corrections official, your legal "expertise" means jack. Yall need to quite posturing like some e-attorney on things you don't know the details of, that goes not just for you but all.




kung fu fighters post was bull**** and you're a gullible clown if you believe it. No kff said not only was it a pro but a UFC champion. Carlos Newton is the only one that fits that bill and he was stabbed trying to protect a friend from being beaten by a gang of what reports said at least 5 men one of which ended up slinging a blade. No f'n **** sherlock of course he's going to get beat (and stabbed). Oh but how convenient kff's wing chun student just regularly knocks out "up to 5 guys at a time." ..cough...bull****...

Engage YOUR thinking cap dunce. Quite coming up with ******* onehanded scenarios that nobody wins. You really shouldn't need more than a single digit IQ to know if someone whips a blade on you, you are at a disadvantage. Its interesting though isn't it that all the great blade warriors of history had some sort of grappling art though huh? You know samurai and jiujitsu, gladiators and wrestling...wonder why that is. Don't think to deep, you might burn in the molten lava.

lamo nicely put:)

[goju]

i couldnt read all of that in the pervious page

what the hell did the arguement turn into?:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

My most vivid memory of a "knife fight" was not something that happened to me but to a patron at one of the clubs I used to work at.
It happened outside after both were escorted out, they continued to have words when one guy just leaped at the other and "grabbed" him by the neck with both hands.
Well, after a few seconds he lets go and takes off and the other guy falls to the ground holding his neck.
We get to him and there is all this blood, it seems that the two handed grab was really a one handed grab and a one handed knife thrust to the neck.
We put pressure on it and called the EMT's but they guy didn't make it.
Yeah, I learned a very crucial lesson about knife thrusts that night.

[KC Elbows]

Um....BJJ is hardly unrecognizeable as an outgrowth of Judo or Jujistsu.

Judo as it was mostly used at the time and bjj did not resemble each other. That the moves did is one thing, but the styles as they were used absolutely did not.

[Frost]

Judo as it was mostly used at the time and bjj did not resemble each other. That the moves did is one thing, but the styles as they were used absolutely did not.

what is your point, bjj looked exactly like judo did on the ground, it used the same positions the same subs the same turnovers etc, its gi takedowns were also the same, they evolved in different directions because of the different rule sets, BJJ became more advanced on the ground because of the rules and judo favoured the takedown more, but to try and argue the gracies invented BJJ is silly, they simply evolved and advanced an aspect of judo and grappling by specialising in it. learning something and then advancing it is one thing, making it up out of thin air is quite another

[Skip J.]

I practice Xing Y and Chen Taiji. I try to see all the possibilities of applications. BUT, when I see the BJJ folk, I see myself being able to handle myself fairly well while on two feet. Then if they happen to take me to the ground, it looks like it would be over fairly quickly for me.
Mind you, I don't mind having expertise in BJJ, but I don't want to spend 4-6 hours a week with my face in another man's crotch or armpit. And then there is the Ringworm and Staff infection thing.

Anyway, just thought I'd share.
You guys sure are entertaining to watch I must say..

At my age, about all I visualize when practicing taiji is defending myself/family if the bad guys come in the middle of the night. Any scenario where I can chose to walk away, I do. What is interesting is that now I don't have nitemares about that anymore, go figure....

I just can't seem to wrap my mind around fighting on the ground.... my bad...

[Frost]

You guys sure are entertaining to watch I must say..

At my age, about all I visualize when practicing taiji is defending myself/family if the bad guys come in the middle of the night. Any scenario where I can chose to walk away, I do. What is interesting is that now I don't have nitemares about that anymore, go figure....

I just can't seem to wrap my mind around fighting on the ground.... my bad...

its not your bad....no one here is saying you have to learn to ground fight, what we are saying is that if you worry about it and worry about how best to handle it you might want to actually go to a gym which grapples in order to learn about it rather than carrying a knife and worrying about who you have to stab next :)

On a related note lets actually be realistic here about why we train.......how many people here get into a fight on a regular basis...or faced a life and death situation in the last 10 years?

i am guessing not many we mostly train for fun which is cool and grappling can be a good workout and fun (just as standing fighting can) and the days of training MA for life and death struggle pretty much ended with the invention of the gun as the chinese boxers found out.

however if you are training for some form of self defence reason, learning to grapple and ground fight can be a good idea and its best to learn these things from a qualified coach

[Skip J.]

Between work and taiji, I can barely say grace over what I'm already committed to....

Maybe I can afford to retire in a few years and up my time commitment to taiji...

By then I should be ready for push hands at least...

[omarthefish]

what is your point, bjj looked exactly like judo did on the ground, it used the same positions the same subs the same turnovers etc, its gi takedowns were also the same, they evolved in different directions because of the different rule sets, BJJ became more advanced on the ground because of the rules and judo favoured the takedown more, but to try and argue the gracies invented BJJ is silly, they simply evolved and advanced an aspect of judo and grappling by specialising in it. learning something and then advancing it is one thing, making it up out of thin air is quite another

Thanks for covering that one.

KC, I generally kind of like your style around here and AFAIK, we have some common ground, both CMA, both fairly IMA slanted. I don't even train BJJ. I just try to keep up on what other people are doing and my reading of the history pretty much matches with what Frost just said. I took a semester of Judo in college and at least half of every class was groundwork. Took a couple of Sambo classes a while back too. Just a taste really. I was visiting family in LA and checked out Gokor's place. Never got anywhere with it but at least got a first hand taste of the thing. Never took a BJJ class but have rolled a couple of times with blue belts. From this very amateurish perspective, I honestly can't tell the difference between them. I can explain the differences academically but having practiced with Judo guys, Sambo guy and BJJ guys on the ground, superficially? . . . same same.

[PHILBERT]

When I first did BJJ years ago (and wish I had stayed, that school wasn't your typical testosterone filled school), one of the blue belts said he liked to grapple with me for several reasons when I started.

Being someone who didn't understand concepts of grappling, I was full of surprises. By this, I would use muscular force to get out of things, and being as I had high amounts of stamina/energy, I did not conserve energy. I didn't understand concepts of using the body mechanics for grappling, and would get myself out of things from sheer force of will.

For those who think grappling with someone who has a knife and you can just make sure he doesn't reach it is simple and easy? It isn't. So much stuff is out there now, even the untrained person might last longer than you think simply because what they have seen on Spike TV or Youtube.

This day in age, so much MMA stuff is easily accessible on television for free (providing you have cable) and the internet. It isn't like it was years ago when MMA was something only seen on Pay-Per-View and a few clips popping up on Sherdog. Trying to do a take down on someone who has no MMA experience might be more difficult, because they may know from watching a lot of Spike TV to do a sprawl.

When you go in for the take down, you have no idea as he is falling if he is pulling a knife out. When I first did Wing Tsun, there was a man I trained with, weighed 300 lbs easily, but had unreal amount of stamina and speed. If you went in for a take down, he would sprawl and in the blink of an eye he would have a knife in his hand, and he wore everywhere (even to training) leather wrist wraps to reduce the chances of getting his wrists cut in a knife fight. This is the kind of guy who knew how to pull a knife in a fight.

[KC Elbows]

Thanks for covering that one.

KC, I generally kind of like your style around here and AFAIK, we have some common ground, both CMA, both fairly IMA slanted. I don't even train BJJ. I just try to keep up on what other people are doing and my reading of the history pretty much matches with what Frost just said. I took a semester of Judo in college and at least half of every class was groundwork. Took a couple of Sambo classes a while back too. Just a taste really. I was visiting family in LA and checked out Gokor's place. Never got anywhere with it but at least got a first hand taste of the thing. Never took a BJJ class but have rolled a couple of times with blue belts. From this very amateurish perspective, I honestly can't tell the difference between them. I can explain the differences academically but having practiced with Judo guys, Sambo guy and BJJ guys on the ground, superficially? . . . same same.

My experience with judo schools was initially before the bjj craze hit, and, while there ws ground work, to compre tghe approach of the different schools with modern bjj would have been incorrect. Many of the same or similar moves, sure, but no one was using it to the same extent or with the same approach as eveyone now is.

[Frost]

When I first did BJJ years ago (and wish I had stayed, that school wasn't your typical testosterone filled school), one of the blue belts said he liked to grapple with me for several reasons when I started.

Being someone who didn't understand concepts of grappling, I was full of surprises. By this, I would use muscular force to get out of things, and being as I had high amounts of stamina/energy, I did not conserve energy. I didn't understand concepts of using the body mechanics for grappling, and would get myself out of things from sheer force of will.

For those who think grappling with someone who has a knife and you can just make sure he doesn't reach it is simple and easy? It isn't. So much stuff is out there now, even the untrained person might last longer than you think simply because what they have seen on Spike TV or Youtube.

This day in age, so much MMA stuff is easily accessible on television for free (providing you have cable) and the internet. It isn't like it was years ago when MMA was something only seen on Pay-Per-View and a few clips popping up on Sherdog. Trying to do a take down on someone who has no MMA experience might be more difficult, because they may know from watching a lot of Spike TV to do a sprawl.

When you go in for the take down, you have no idea as he is falling if he is pulling a knife out. When I first did Wing Tsun, there was a man I trained with, weighed 300 lbs easily, but had unreal amount of stamina and speed. If you went in for a take down, he would sprawl and in the blink of an eye he would have a knife in his hand, and he wore everywhere (even to training) leather wrist wraps to reduce the chances of getting his wrists cut in a knife fight. This is the kind of guy who knew how to pull a knife in a fight.

lets start with the simple stuff.....
1) you reacted like all new people to grappling you weren't unique.....there is a reason new guys are called fish: they all flail around and muscle out of things it makes life fun. they usually learn and get tired of taping or leave......

2) grappling is all about controlling the opponents body and limbs...where did anyone say it was easy fighting a guy with a knife...what was said is that drawing a knife and using it is not that easy if you have not grappled before....

3)watching something on tv/the net and thinking you can do the same without proper training is what gets alot of people in trouble and beaten up...and why a lot of TCMA students and teachers have crappy takedowns and takedown defence

4) taking someone down with no training is usually easy whether they watch spike or not ......seeing a sprawl on tv is one thing......being able to spot the oppponent is setting up the shot and thus knowing when to sprawl, where to position your body and what pressure to use is another thing entirly...its like saying every boxing fan knows how to punch :rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

what is your point, bjj looked exactly like judo did on the ground, it used the same positions the same subs the same turnovers etc, its gi takedowns were also the same, they evolved in different directions because of the different rule sets

BJJ existed before modern mma tourneys, so I'm unclear which rules, but, as I already said, while you would see many of the same or similar moves, what you saw in a judo school in the seventies and early eighties being practiced was not bjj. Just because two cars have wheels, engines, and steering wheels still doesn't make them the same car

Unless you're saying bjj isn't a style at all. If it is, then it's an innovation. That judo schools, in response, found themselves focusing more on their ground techniques because of mma, which many did, doesn't mean that judo fighters were fighting like bjj fighters before that, they more often than not weren't because their style has a broader focus in which, at the time, ground work had a different place than it does now. A judo fighter who only fights just like a bjj fighter is attending the wrong school.


BJJ became more advanced on the ground because of the rules

Again, which rules? Bjj's rules? Didn't see rules in their old challenge matches. MMA rules? Bjj predates modern mma. BJJ as a practice, despite having common moves, is distinct from judo in its emphasis.


and judo favoured the takedown more,

That's like saying Sanjuro Ronin favors bikini clad women slightly more than Elton John does.


but to try and argue the gracies invented BJJ is silly

You are aware that most inventions are not advances in engineering, but simply novel use of what already is, right?


they simply evolved and advanced an aspect of judo and grappling by specialising in it.

Yes. And since they advanced it, it is an innovation, not the same as the source. That those doing the source then followed suit is just them seeing the value of that innovation: to claim judo practitioners in the previous generation generally already did this is inaccurate.


learning something and then advancing it is one thing, making it up out of thin air is quite another

You mean like making up that argument as though I said it?

If you look up judo footage from the seventies, what you will most commonly see is not people rolling, even though the basic idea was there. Look up footage of bjj, and what you will not commonly see is throws. They are different things, regardless of the commonalities. My claim is not that one should invent ground fighting based on no experience of it, my claim is that bjj exists because of an innovative spirit, is an innovation, and is a distinct usage of the same things judo had, but that judo practitioners before mma didn't focus on nearly as much as they do now.

Given that, and the assumption that we all like martial arts, and different kinds, it's really pointless to voice our opinion of the suggestion of someone from yet another style who wishes to experiment. Now, if one wants to experiment, one needs to actually do so, but really, what use is scoffing at the possibility of it?

You should note that, while judo had a stronger ethic of aliveness than many other schools in the '70s, they were not the ones to usher in the modern era of martial arts, bjj was. If judo practitioners fought just like bjj practitioners, why did this not occur in the 1930's instead of the 1980's?

[KC Elbows]

The problem with Knifefighter's argument is that he argues as though the ground fighter also understands knife work. He argues from his perspective. But many, many ground fighters know little to nothing about blades, and that changes their chances to control someone with one. Same for most kinds of fighters.

[KC Elbows]

When I first did BJJ years ago (and wish I had stayed, that school wasn't your typical testosterone filled school), one of the blue belts said he liked to grapple with me for several reasons when I started.

Being someone who didn't understand concepts of grappling, I was full of surprises. By this, I would use muscular force to get out of things, and being as I had high amounts of stamina/energy, I did not conserve energy. I didn't understand concepts of using the body mechanics for grappling, and would get myself out of things from sheer force of will.

For those who think grappling with someone who has a knife and you can just make sure he doesn't reach it is simple and easy? It isn't. So much stuff is out there now, even the untrained person might last longer than you think simply because what they have seen on Spike TV or Youtube.

This day in age, so much MMA stuff is easily accessible on television for free (providing you have cable) and the internet. It isn't like it was years ago when MMA was something only seen on Pay-Per-View and a few clips popping up on Sherdog. Trying to do a take down on someone who has no MMA experience might be more difficult, because they may know from watching a lot of Spike TV to do a sprawl.

When you go in for the take down, you have no idea as he is falling if he is pulling a knife out. When I first did Wing Tsun, there was a man I trained with, weighed 300 lbs easily, but had unreal amount of stamina and speed. If you went in for a take down, he would sprawl and in the blink of an eye he would have a knife in his hand, and he wore everywhere (even to training) leather wrist wraps to reduce the chances of getting his wrists cut in a knife fight. This is the kind of guy who knew how to pull a knife in a fight.

Twice a week, I do twelve 3 minute rounds of live takedown drills with some other martial artists, working the takedowns and throws in my style. We practice with any friendly martial artists, and one of the group has been doing bjj for some time now, and is in great physical condition. I focus on the stuff from my style, and how to use my style to counter the other people's stuff, and hold my own just fine. Once my knee heals, I intend to do rounds rolling as well. Bjj guys with little experience that have come don't get much in the way of takedowns on me the same as any other inexperienced guys, and the more experienced ones respect my abilities, and we all get along just fine, and none of them have time to waste on the internet policing the kung fu folks. Just sayin'.:D

[Knifefighter]

When I first did BJJ years ago (and wish I had stayed, that school wasn't your typical testosterone filled school), one of the blue belts said he liked to grapple with me for several reasons when I started.

Being someone who didn't understand concepts of grappling, I was full of surprises. By this, I would use muscular force to get out of things, and being as I had high amounts of stamina/energy, I did not conserve energy. I didn't understand concepts of using the body mechanics for grappling, and would get myself out of things from sheer force of will.

No, the reason he liked to grapple with you was because, like all people who don't understand the concepts of grappling, you set yourself to make it easy for him to apply finishing techniques.


For those who think grappling with someone who has a knife and you can just make sure he doesn't reach it is simple and easy? It isn't. So much stuff is out there now, even the untrained person might last longer than you think simply because what they have seen on Spike TV or Youtube.

Watching something on you tube won't let you last any longer than not watching something on You Tube. That's like thinking you can watch some clips of bowling and then somehow be better at bowling.


This day in age, so much MMA stuff is easily accessible on television for free (providing you have cable) and the internet. It isn't like it was years ago when MMA was something only seen on Pay-Per-View and a few clips popping up on Sherdog. Trying to do a take down on someone who has no MMA experience might be more difficult, because they may know from watching a lot of Spike TV to do a sprawl.

You can watch something all you want. Unless you are practicing it with people who actually know what they are doing, you won't be able to do it.


When you go in for the take down, you have no idea as he is falling if he is pulling a knife out. When I first did Wing Tsun, there was a man I trained with, weighed 300 lbs easily, but had unreal amount of stamina and speed. If you went in for a take down, he would sprawl and in the blink of an eye he would have a knife in his hand, and he wore everywhere (even to training) leather wrist wraps to reduce the chances of getting his wrists cut in a knife fight. This is the kind of guy who knew how to pull a knife in a fight.

LOL... a guy who wears leather straps on his wrist everywhere is a larper. The guy had no clue about knife work.

[Frost]

i don't get what you are argueing about

heres your origianl posts and knifefighters responses which echo what i said


Originally Posted by KC Elbows
So the Gracies invented nothing?

Knifefighter

The Gracies took an established grappling system and added to it from a variety of sources. They also took one aspect of it and based their strategy around that single aspect. They also took specific techniques and positions and made those more specialized for their strategies and tactics.


Knifefighter




Quote:
Originally Posted by Knifefighter
The Gracies took an established grappling system and added to it from a variety of sources. They also took one aspect of it and based their strategy around that single aspect. They also took specific techniques and positions and made those more specialized for their strategies and tactics.


Inventing a style that doesn't resemble most of those sources.


You act as if what the Gracie’s did...learning judo then refining an aspect of it, is the same as making ground fighting up out of thin air. You are wrong here and wrong when you say BJJ and judo are fundamentally different or don’t share any similarities etc. I don’t know wheat judo you watched in the 70's and 80's, I grew up on Brian jacks and Neil Adams and other judo guys who were great on the ground and used arm bars, triangle chokes etc. They look different because of the different rules (and to make this clear I mean judo scored heavily on the throw and limited ground work to a specific time frame and also banished certain grips, BJJ didn’t score heavily on the throw, did not limit ground work and did not stop innovations like new grips etc) hence one art concentrates on stand-up grips and throws, and the other on the ground work, but both still look like each other and share the same techniques but use them differently due to the specific rules they compete in, (go look at some of gracies judo matches from the 80’s guess what it looks like judo)

[Knifefighter]

The problem with Knifefighter's argument is that he argues as though the ground fighter also understands knife work. He argues from his perspective. But many, many ground fighters know little to nothing about blades, and that changes their chances to control someone with one. Same for most kinds of fighters.

My point wasn't that many grapplers understand blade work, because many don't.

My point was that there is a sub-set of grapplers who understand it and that, just as grappling is an important part of well-rounded unarmed fighting, it is an important part of knife work.

[omarthefish]

If you look up judo footage from the seventies, what you will most commonly see is not people rolling, even though the basic idea was there. Look up footage of bjj, and what you will not commonly see is throws. They are different things, regardless of the commonalities. My claim is not that one should invent ground fighting based on no experience of it, my claim is that bjj exists because of an innovative spirit, is an innovation, and is a distinct usage of the same things judo had, but that judo practitioners before mma didn't focus on nearly as much as they do now.
More than one point is present in this paragraph.

Don't see much rolling in the 70's. . . in the USA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1PP90v9m4&feature=related

Turn the clock back to when Helio was studing and you'd see even more similarities.

[KC Elbows]

No, the reason he liked to grapple with you was because, like all people who don't understand the concepts of grappling, you set yourself to make it easy for him to apply finishing techniques.

1) He mentioned this in reference to someone he knew and you didn't, who liked having to deal with unpredictable ways he was "getting out of things", not because of applying finishing techniques.

2) Speaking for people you don't know to diss their friends, aren't you fifty? Is it really cool to troll at your age?(It's a trick question, it's not.)

3) You don't have to live your whole life with short man syndrome. They're called lifts, buy some.

[Knifefighter]

Twice a week, I do twelve 3 minute rounds of live takedown drills with some other martial artists, working the takedowns and throws in my style. We practice with any friendly martial artists, and one of the group has been doing bjj for some time now, and is in great physical condition. I focus on the stuff from my style, and how to use my style to counter the other people's stuff, and hold my own just fine. Once my knee heals, I intend to do rounds rolling as well. Bjj guys with little experience that have come don't get much in the way of takedowns on me the same as any other inexperienced guys, and the more experienced ones respect my abilities, and we all get along just fine, and none of them have time to waste on the internet policing the kung fu folks. Just sayin'.:D

You do realize that, as a general rule, BJJ guys have the worst takedowns of any grappling style, right?

[KC Elbows]

You act as if what the Gracie’s did...learning judo then refining an aspect of it, is the same as making ground fighting up out of thin air.

I did not say that. Addditionlly, KF's post is practically the definition of innovation, which I'm sure he'd agree with, when he isn't busy trolling kids.


You are wrong here

Yes, I am wrong saying what I never said.


and wrong when you say BJJ and judo are fundamentally different

Their focus just don't tend to be the same, that seems to be pretty fundamental.


or don’t share any similarities etc.

Jesus, how many things have I said here without saying them?


I don’t know wheat judo you watched in the 70's and 80's, I grew up on Brian jacks and Neil Adams and other judo guys who were great on the ground and used arm bars, triangle chokes etc. They look different because of the different rules (and to make this clear I mean judo scored heavily on the throw and limited ground work to a specific time frame and also banished certain grips, BJJ didn’t score heavily on the throw, did not limit ground work and did not stop innovations like new grips etc)

I get you on this one now, but it seems like the rules were made for the style, not the other way around. In otherwords, you were rewarded for following the focus of a preexisting style by the point system in order to ensure that practitioners could use that style. The style didn't sprout from the point system, the point system came from the style.


hence one art concentrates on stand-up grips and throws, and the other on the ground work,

How is that not a fundamental difference? At best, using this, you could argue that bjj is a style of judo, but that still leaves it as distinct from the other styles.

At this point, aside from having to answer things I never said, and arguing tangential points, I had completely forgotten about Brian Jacks, so thanks.

[KC Elbows]

My point wasn't that many grapplers understand blade work, because many don't.

My point was that there is a sub-set of grapplers who understand it and that, just as grappling is an important part of well-rounded unarmed fighting, it is an important part of knife work.

You don't know kung fu.

[Knifefighter]

You don't know kung fu.

No... you know very little about knife work.

[KC Elbows]

No... you know very little about knife work.


Did you actually think I said that seriously?

[KC Elbows]

More than one point is present in this paragraph.

Don't see much rolling in the 70's. . . in the USA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1PP90v9m4&feature=related

Turn the clock back to when Helio was studing and you'd see even more similarities.

Clearly that's the exception that proves the rule.:D

[goju]

Did you actually think I said that seriously?

Of course he did lol

the guy is so obsessed with being a know it all he can't even detect a joke:rolleyes:

[KC Elbows]

You do realize that, as a general rule, BJJ guys have the worst takedowns of any grappling style, right?

I was not bragging, I was talking about something Philbert reminded me of, how useful diverse training partners are and how, given time, most serious people will find that they can hold their own if they train their stuff realistically.

I know this is not as important as pretending this board is a forum solely for professionals who the rest should curtsey to, but you'll just have to live with that, old guy trolling teenagers.

[Skip J.]

I know this is not as important as pretending this board is a forum solely for professionals who the rest should curtsey to, but you'll just have to live with that, old guy trolling teenagers.
I laughed so hard I about fell outta my char.....

This old guy knows when to keep his words to himself....

[Skip J.]

Very nice of you external guys entertaining all us internals with such a large thread!

Thanks!

We appreciate it!

[goju]

you'll just have to live with that, old guy trolling teenagers.

dont forget he challenges them to fights too! bwahahahahhahaha!

[PHILBERT]

No, the reason he liked to grapple with you was because, like all people who don't understand the concepts of grappling, you set yourself to make it easy for him to apply finishing techniques.


I lasted longer when I started out versus after a few months of training. The reason being because after a few months of training I realized that using brute force was not the best route and began to try techniques, all of which he knew the counters to.


Watching something on you tube won't let you last any longer than not watching something on You Tube. That's like thinking you can watch some clips of bowling and then somehow be better at bowling.

I learned how to escape someone setting up an arm bar from a video clip and then applying it to class.


You can watch something all you want. Unless you are practicing it with people who actually know what they are doing, you won't be able to do it.

Normally yes.


LOL... a guy who wears leather straps on his wrist everywhere is a larper. The guy had no clue about knife work.

News to me, he didn't strike me as a larper. However, I am glad you are able to determine that he had absolutely no knowledge of knife work based upon a couple of lines of text. When I said he wore wrist guards, I don't mean a glove/wrist combination. Just 2 thick leather bracelets, and it didn't strike me as something a larper would wear.

[taai gihk yahn]

Watching something on you tube won't let you last any longer than not watching something on You Tube. That's like thinking you can watch some clips of bowling and then somehow be better at bowling.
You can watch something all you want. Unless you are practicing it with people who actually know what they are doing, you won't be able to do it.
not entirely true - you can see changes in neuromuscular function based on passive observation; for example, if u test your hamstring lengths and then intently watch someone stretch their hamstrings, and retest yours after, you will have an increase in your own range; you can also just imagine yourself stretching your own hamstrings and get an increase in flexibility; this isn't voodoo, it's actually pretty straight forward neuromuscular physiology - in the same vein as how you can stretch or strengthen the more flexible or stronger side and see immediate gains in the tight and weaker side;
also, we know that one can improve a relatively complex motor skill such as making a jump shot by mental practice alone; therefore, one could conjecture that watching someone take a jump shot could imprint a motor pattern of that activity that could be reasonably replicated under certain parameters (repeated viewing, focused as opposed to casual observation); now, of course, this is not the same thing as performing a skilled activity in a contextually complex environment; meaning that visualizing a jump shot is not the same as taking a jump shot in a live game, analogous to performing a sprawl in a controlled vs. uncontrolled environment; however, it's also a matter of degree - if you take someone who his innately athletic, and has experience functioning in a random environment that isn't too dissimilar (which is certainly open to argument as to what constitutes similarity in motor skills), he could conceivably apply a given technique against a moderately skilled opponent, having only watched it; now, take the average guy with limited experience, and he might also be able to do the same, but of course, it would likely have to be against someone not that experienced; but the point is that given the connection between the neuromuscular and visual system, it's not completely inconceivable that skilled motor function can occur under certain conditions based purely on visual experience with that skill

[Knifefighter]

not entirely true - you can see changes in neuromuscular function based on passive observation; for example, if u test your hamstring lengths and then intently watch someone stretch their hamstrings, and retest yours after, you will have an increase in your own range; you can also just imagine yourself stretching your own hamstrings and get an increase in flexibility; this isn't voodoo, it's actually pretty straight forward neuromuscular physiology - in the same vein as how you can stretch or strengthen the more flexible or stronger side and see immediate gains in the tight and weaker side;
also, we know that one can improve a relatively complex motor skill such as making a jump shot by mental practice alone; therefore, one could conjecture that watching someone take a jump shot could imprint a motor pattern of that activity that could be reasonably replicated under certain parameters (repeated viewing, focused as opposed to casual observation); now, of course, this is not the same thing as performing a skilled activity in a contextually complex environment; meaning that visualizing a jump shot is not the same as taking a jump shot in a live game, analogous to performing a sprawl in a controlled vs. uncontrolled environment; however, it's also a matter of degree - if you take someone who his innately athletic, and has experience functioning in a random environment that isn't too dissimilar (which is certainly open to argument as to what constitutes similarity in motor skills), he could conceivably apply a given technique against a moderately skilled opponent, having only watched it; now, take the average guy with limited experience, and he might also be able to do the same, but of course, it would likely have to be against someone not that experienced; but the point is that given the connection between the neuromuscular and visual system, it's not completely inconceivable that skilled motor function can occur under certain conditions based purely on visual experience with that skill
Agreed Just as is seen in unilateral strength training resulting in strength gains in the untrained limb.

That being said, I've grappled with hundreds of novices who have also watched grappling. If it helped them, it was pretty insignificant. Even if one has seen it, without understanding the basic principles, the skillset is too complex to keep him from making basic mistakes and getting finished (i.e. don't push up when mounted, don't leave on arm in and one arm out in the guard, don't drop the head when doing takedowns, etc).

[taai gihk yahn]

Agreed Just as is seen in unilateral strength training resulting in strength gains in the untrained limb.
you might be interested in checking out this guys website (http://www.totalmotionrelease.com) - he's systemized this concept to be applied in a rehab context; it's a nice approach, works very well w/a lot of folks (a lot more so than the typical PT silliness you see out there);


That being said, I've grappled with hundreds of novices who have also watched grappling. If it helped them, it was pretty insignificant. Even if one has seen it, without understanding the basic principles, the skillset is too complex to keep him from making basic mistakes and getting finished (i.e. don't push up when mounted, don't leave on arm in and one arm out in the guard, don't drop the head when doing takedowns, etc).
clearly this is an example of where whatever advantage might be conferred by visual familiarity will be negated by the context, given that your experience is so significant it obviates the rudimentary pattern; to see the difference, you'd have to pit novice against novice w/all attributes being equal;

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed Just as is seen in unilateral strength training resulting in strength gains in the untrained limb.

That being said, I've grappled with hundreds of novices who have also watched grappling. If it helped them, it was pretty insignificant. Even if one has seen it, without understanding the basic principles, the skillset is too complex to keep him from making basic mistakes and getting finished (i.e. don't push up when mounted, don't leave on arm in and one arm out in the guard, don't drop the head when doing takedowns, etc).

POR is crucial here (point of reference).
Someone with a judo back ground can pick up a lot of BJJ ( as an example) from videos, just as a shotokan guy can pick up TKD.
Of course this depends of the person, many people WATCH instructionals and have no idea HOW to use them.
Of course some instructionals just suck while others are very good and focus not so much on "teaching" but on making clear key points of what NOT to do and what to do.

[Frost]

I did not say that. Addditionlly, KF's post is practically the definition of innovation, which I'm sure he'd agree with, when he isn't busy trolling kids.



Yes, I am wrong saying what I never said.



Their focus just don't tend to be the same, that seems to be pretty fundamental.



Jesus, how many things have I said here without saying them?



I get you on this one now, but it seems like the rules were made for the style, not the other way around. In otherwords, you were rewarded for following the focus of a preexisting style by the point system in order to ensure that practitioners could use that style. The style didn't sprout from the point system, the point system came from the style.



How is that not a fundamental difference? At best, using this, you could argue that bjj is a style of judo, but that still leaves it as distinct from the other styles.

At this point, aside from having to answer things I never said, and arguing tangential points, I had completely forgotten about Brian Jacks, so thanks.

So what was your point originally then, because you came into the arguement when dale was mocking someone for making up ground fighting with no experience in that field

Here’s what dale said and your reply

Originally Posted by Knifefighter
LOL @ developing your own techs for groundfighting...
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1012646]
So the Gracies invented nothing?
Knifefighter
The Gracies took an established grappling system and added to it from a variety of sources. They also took one aspect of it and based their strategy around that single aspect. They also took specific techniques and positions and made those more specialized for their strategies and tactics.

To which you started to argue judo and BJJ are nothing alike



Judo as it was mostly used at the time and bjj did not resemble each other. That the moves did is one thing, but the styles as they were used absolutely did not.

If you didn't mean that, if you didn't mean to imply that the Gracies made up BJJ or you were not arguing with dale when he laughed at people making ground fighting up without any skill in that area then you should be clearer

And the fact is judo and BJJ are the same art with different competition rules which has led to them specialising in different areas...what is so hard to understand about this. The judo curriculum includes all the BJJ subs and positions but since they don’t emphasize them as much in competition (although this is changing now) it does not look as fluid on the ground. BJJ includes all of judos throws, but because it doesn't score heavily on the takedown and always more gripping choices it doesn’t look the same as judo standing..... Just as no gi BJJ looks different from Gi BJJ because of the rule and clothing changes but they are still fundamentally the same arts

[Knifefighter]

The basic fact is that you can't "make up" a functional system unless you already have significant background in the area the system applies to.

Most of us have seen this in action when the kung fu guys with no ground experience started pulling "ground fighting" out of their forms and started teaching it to their students. All they ended up with was guys who were still clueless on the ground.

[KC Elbows]

To which you started to argue judo and BJJ are nothing alike

The quote you use doesn't even support your interpretation of it. I directly say that the techs are similar, but that, AS THEY WERE USED, the styles were not necessarily so. If similar techs make things the same style, then all grappling would be considered the same style, and it's not.



If you didn't mean that, if you didn't mean to imply that the Gracies made up BJJ or you were not arguing with dale when he laughed at people making ground fighting up without any skill in that area then you should be clearer

No, you need to read closer. I wasn't suggesting they made up the techs from air ever, not once. I suggested they innovated, which made their style distinct enough to be considered a style. Granted, a style of judo, you've convinced me on that.


And the fact is judo and BJJ are the same art with different competition rules which has led to them specialising in different areas

I've already answered this. You are wrong. The competition rules were defined by the desired approach to fighting, not vice versa, in both cases. That competition then further informed things is incidental to this point, the style did not rise from the competition rules, it rose from the preferences and skills of its founders and the need to create a format to work those skills.


...what is so hard to understand about this.

Condescending doesn't make your point correct. Where is your evidence that the Gracies designed a competition format that then created the focus of the style on ground work? Clearly it is the reverse, they, from experience, wanted a format that worked the principles and techniques they were espousing.


The judo curriculum includes all the BJJ subs and positions but since they don’t emphasize them as much in competition (although this is changing now) it does not look as fluid on the ground.

How can two fundamentally identical things become more fundamentally similar? I'm not wanting to be disrespectful here, you're the one wishing to pursue an unnecessary condescending tone here, but you make some good points, then lose them with bad arguments like this. Is your fundamental point that there is no such thing as styles, that if Group A does X as a primary focus and Y as secondary and Group B does Y as primary and X as secondary, that there's no fundamental difference just because they both use the same letters of the alphabet, yet find the opposite ones most worthy of focus?

Universally, bjj guys focus more on the ground than anything else, judo guys might or might not. That's a big enough difference to call it fundamental, period. The narrow focus of bjj will always produce fighters who fight like bjj fighters, the broader focus of judo will only do so on occasion as an incidental. I'm pretty sure, if asked what style they do, bjj guys don't usually say judo. Are they wrong and you're right?

[KC Elbows]

The basic fact is that you can't "make up" a functional system unless you already have significant background in the area the system applies to.

No. You are unlikely to make a refined functional system without background, unless you're some sort of savant, but go back far enough, and you have a rudimentary functional system with no predecessor made by someone with no functional system to go off of. True, it's reinventing the wheel, but you don't see guitarists on music forums whining about people choosing to teach themselves guitar, why do you care, besides middle school not having let out the kids you troll yet?


Most of us have seen this in action when the kung fu guys with no ground experience started pulling "ground fighting" out of their forms and started teaching it to their students. All they ended up with was guys who were still clueless on the ground.

There is a strong difference between someone who decides to reinvent the wheel and someone who attempts to do so and has students learning it from them; but to use the latter to attack the former is pretty much smear tactics, and lame.

[Knifefighter]

The competition rules were defined by the desired approach to fighting, not vice versa, in both cases. That competition then further informed things is incidental to this point, the style did not rise from the competition rules, it rose from the preferences and skills of its founders and the need to create a format to work those skills.

It's both. The competition is designed for a specific reason (which may or may not be directly related to the approach to fighting). Techniques then are developed to suit the specific style of competition. Often, these techniques end up being unrelated to the original reason the competition was designed (think 1/2 guard techniques that get your face punched in or throws that give up the back).

[SoCo KungFu]

No. You are unlikely to make a refined functional system without background, unless you're some sort of savant, but go back far enough, and you have a rudimentary functional system with no predecessor made by someone with no functional system to go off of. True, it's reinventing the wheel, but you don't see guitarists on music forums whining about people choosing to teach themselves guitar, why do you care, besides middle school not having let out the kids you troll yet?

Go back far enough and you'll find people afraid of fire, yet I have a simple tool that will let me create fire with wet materials in the snow. Who has a better chance of survival? Me or some dude that just figured out sparks come from scraping rocks?

Just because somebody can realize if they wrap their arm around someone's neck and hurt them doesn't mean that alone is enough anymore. This is what people who think they can just go "discover" stuff in their forms (esp when all they are really doing is attempting to find something through a modern perspective that didn't exist at the time of the forms creation). In trying to go this route, one is willfully neglecting the entire line of evolution of that particular fighting method from its inception to present day. This is equally true of striking, grappling, throwing, whatever. Its a matter of been there done that. The systems people are avoiding are light years ahead of anything you may find in your attempts to reinvent. I really don't understand this stubborness people have in trying to do this on their own.

And you know, this even applies in a shorter term as well. Even among for example grappling experts, there are so many people trying to gain an edge at the moment that even on a year to year basis you see somebody coming up with something that renders an older move or whatever obsolete. And then it gets thrown up on youtube and next thing you know everyone is pulling it. If you aren't up to date, you get caught. Its like this crazy hand to hand arms race.

I just don't get why people are willfully inhibiting their own progression.

[KC Elbows]

Go back far enough and you'll find people afraid of fire, yet I have a simple tool that will let me create fire with wet materials in the snow. Who has a better chance of survival? Me or some dude that just figured out sparks come from scraping rocks?

Modern man is the least capable being on the planet of making fire from the tools at his disposal.


Just because somebody can realize if they wrap their arm around someone's neck and hurt them doesn't mean that alone is enough anymore.

In most cases, it is enough. MA is a hobby for a few, most fights have nothing to do with martial artists.


This is what people who think they can just go "discover" stuff in their forms (esp when all they are really doing is attempting to find something through a modern perspective that didn't exist at the time of the forms creation).

And yet, I've seen forms that did have elements of groundwork, the same sort of waist use, etc., that were taught as that long before. I've got a book from the 1930s of kung fu that is largely ground work. And I've seen people trying to work principles of their style into ground work, not claiming that the results were in their form all along. Only online have I seen a few people doing what you claim, so what's the point of debating this statistically irrelevant subgroup as something to do with the rest of us?


In trying to go this route, one is willfully neglecting the entire line of evolution of that particular fighting method from its inception to present day.

Like modern boxers with little to no knowledge of earlier versions of boxing that more closely resemble mma style fighting? This presumes that people trying to find their own answers do choose to ignore ground fighting styles overall, which is not necessarily the case; some are actually paying close attention to other styles or being open to rolling with other stylists in order to facillitate what they want to develop. Again, why should we be bothered or disdainful of this?


This is equally true of striking, grappling, throwing, whatever. Its a matter of been there done that. The systems people are avoiding are light years ahead of anything you may find in your attempts to reinvent. I really don't understand this stubborness people have in trying to do this on their own.

Maybe its not stubbornness, but merely doing it for the fun of it. Again, what's the big deal?


And you know, this even applies in a shorter term as well. Even among for example grappling experts, there are so many people trying to gain an edge at the moment that even on a year to year basis you see somebody coming up with something that renders an older move or whatever obsolete. And then it gets thrown up on youtube and next thing you know everyone is pulling it. If you aren't up to date, you get caught. Its like this crazy hand to hand arms race.

Which is cool.


I just don't get why people are willfully inhibiting their own progression.

Time? Money? Merely because they want to make you irate and then their friends can troll you on internet forums? Who knows?:D

[PHILBERT]

http://www.amazon.com/Fukien-Ground-Boxing-Shaoling-Techniques/dp/0870409247/

[SoCo KungFu]

Modern man is the least capable being on the planet of making fire from the tools at his disposal.

The millions of smokers on the planet say you're wrong.


In most cases, it is enough. MA is a hobby for a few, most fights have nothing to do with martial artists.

Which has nothing to do with the conversation since we are in fact talking about both martial arts and fighting.


And yet, I've seen forms that did have elements of groundwork, the same sort of waist use, etc., that were taught as that long before. I've got a book from the 1930s of kung fu that is largely ground work. And I've seen people trying to work principles of their style into ground work, not claiming that the results were in their form all along. Only online have I seen a few people doing what you claim, so what's the point of debating this statistically irrelevant subgroup as something to do with the rest of us?

You can't learn ground fighting from a form. Probably even more so than trying to learn striking from a form. You learn by being in the situation repeatedly and applying it, like anything else in MA. I'd like to see what your book on kung fu groundwork actually displays. I'm betting their idea of suitable ground skill is vastly different than mine or anyone who actually trains ground to a serious degree. I'll withhold my opinion til after, though lets just say I'm skeptical. A few leg sweeps to get back to your feet does not make a fully flushed system of ground fighting.


Like modern boxers with little to no knowledge of earlier versions of boxing that more closely resemble mma style fighting? This presumes that people trying to find their own answers do choose to ignore ground fighting styles overall, which is not necessarily the case; some are actually paying close attention to other styles or being open to rolling with other stylists in order to facillitate what they want to develop. Again, why should we be bothered or disdainful of this?

Modern boxing has strayed away from things in its origin. However to argue that a modern boxer is inferior in striking than predecessors is just.....


Maybe its not stubbornness, but merely doing it for the fun of it. Again, what's the big deal?

Which again, has nothing to do with the current discussion of MA and fighting. Personally I don't really find it fun getting my *** beat but maybe that's just me...shrug....


Which is cool.

Time? Money? Merely because they want to make you irate and then their friends can troll you on internet forums? Who knows?:D

If they got time to daydream up nonsensical applications and not apply and test them when they show up for dancing class then they got time to work in some alternate training a couple hours a week. Money and availability are valid arguments, but yet we live in the information age so to say they have no access to at least see proper ground work is ludicrous (Not that, that is what you said, just saying). They still need willing people to train with, but that at least on a basic level can be done by a couple guys looking stuff up and working it. The good thing about grappling is that if you have a detailed enough source, a couple of guys working it out (so long as they are actually training effectively) can self critique until they get it correct. I don't think that is asking of too much dedication for someone who is so concerned with fighting effectiveness as we are assuming. As for the last point. I'm good man, I know what I got. Merely questioning for the sake of.

[PHILBERT]

The millions of smokers on the planet say you're wrong.

I think he meant, you know, with sticks, rocks, leaves, etc. Not with something you click and it starts a fire.

At least that was what I got from it.

[KC Elbows]

I think he meant, you know, with sticks, rocks, leaves, etc. Not with something you click and it starts a fire.

At least that was what I got from it.

The modern lighter is a convenience, not an advancement. Most people I know who do any sort of long term camping/hiking outdoor stuff away from modern conveniences might use one, but would consider it the height of stupidity to not be able to do without it, because it isn't a particularly reliable means for fire in the kinds of conditions one would really need fire.:D

[KC Elbows]

Which has nothing to do with the conversation since we are in fact talking about both martial arts and fighting.

The fact that, for the vast majority of martial arts situations, one doesn't need entire systems of ma to deal with attackers, is topical. Simply having an answer that has been reasonably tested is enough, so if someone wants to follow the hobby of focusing on throws, and merely has rudimentary approaches to other things, possibly even occasionally of the 'reinventing the wheel' type, but tests them and they are sufficient for the common assailant, who cares besides you and Knifefighter?


You can't learn ground fighting from a form. Probably even more so than trying to learn striking from a form. You learn by being in the situation repeatedly and applying it, like anything else in MA.

And you draw the body of what you're testing from either forms or lists of techniques, I'm not sure I've ever said otherwise.


I'd like to see what your book on kung fu groundwork actually displays.

Arm bars, kimuras, guillotines, etc. Not a form, but individual moves shown on a guy being pretzelled in much the same way as jjj, judo, and bjj do so. There is no mention of positioning and such, it is not necessarily a refined system of groundfighting, but the basic moves are virtually identical to some moves from ground styles. Looking through it, it has parts related to ground techniques, and, of course, more parts covering standup. The book is chin na fa, I don't know the author's name right off hand, but it was published, I think, by Tim Cartnell.


I'm betting their idea of suitable ground skill is vastly different than mine or anyone who actually trains ground to a serious degree. I'll withhold my opinion til after, though lets just say I'm skeptical.

I enjoy your method of withholding opinion by sandwiching the claim of doing so between your repeated opinion.


A few leg sweeps to get back to your feet does not make a fully flushed system of ground fighting.

While that technique does not, that is not the only move one can find in some kung fu systems. As already stated, a 1930s book based off of an older Chinese text had very similar techniques to what one would find in jjj, judo, and bjj. They were not an attempt at a fully flushed system, but merely meant to be useful techniques. Unless you are saying they are not, I'm not sure where you're getting, except arguing your familiarity of kung fu and omitting any other for your argument.

I'm not arguing that these moves are universally present in all kung fu, or that there was an attempt to develop a fully fleshed out system solely based on ground, merely that, if one has access to them, and since they are consistent with the other methods of ground work we see today, if one wants to work on them, why do you care?



Modern boxing has strayed away from things in its origin. However to argue that a modern boxer is inferior in striking than predecessors is just.....

I didn't argue that. He is less broadly capable as a fighter because of it. He has to learn how to use his striking in mma, he has to alter it to some degree for mma. I'm not bothered by this, he can do both, or just box, which will be largely sufficient for most situations outside of mma; I could cry endlessly about his willful ignorance of kicking or takedowns or groundwork, but that would make me a busybody.;)



Which again, has nothing to do with the current discussion of MA and fighting. Personally I don't really find it fun getting my *** beat but maybe that's just me...shrug....

I'm not arguing that, if one enters venues where people are using fully developed systems of groundwork, using a rudimentary system, that they will do well on the ground.

I'm stating that, in the rest of situations, bouncing, security work, etc, if they do have a rudimentary and reasonably tested approach, and other specialties outside of groundwork, they will be absolutely fine and not likely to get their ass handed to them, anyway.

I'm also saying you care way too much.:p



If they got time to daydream up nonsensical applications and not apply and test them

Who suggested not testing them? And if they do, again, why do you care?


when they show up for dancing class then they got time to work in some alternate training a couple hours a week. Money and availability are valid arguments, but yet we live in the information age so to say they have no access to at least see proper ground work is ludicrous (Not that, that is what you said, just saying). They still need willing people to train with, but that at least on a basic level can be done by a couple guys looking stuff up and working it. The good thing about grappling is that if you have a detailed enough source, a couple of guys working it out (so long as they are actually training effectively) can self critique until they get it correct. I don't think that is asking of too much dedication for someone who is so concerned with fighting effectiveness as we are assuming. As for the last point. I'm good man, I know what I got. Merely questioning for the sake of.

I agree on the availability of good stuff, and I like learning such things. My point is, when we expect everyone else to prove their self dedication on topics we pick and choose, we need to get a life and get laid. You love groundwork, cool, I think that's great, when your posts have useful info on that, I'll quietly read them and hopefully improve from that. When your posts are about how uncool not being as dedicated or organized on groundwork as you are is, I'll remind you that you are posting on a social forum, which is about one step lower on the cool totem than acne.

I'm not doing this as a moral service, but purely for trolling purposes. The joy of revealing the utter geekiness of fifty year old men haranguing teenagers and speaking like life is a Charles Bronson movie is incomparable!:D

[Skip J.]

I'm not doing this as a moral service, but purely for trolling purposes. The joy of revealing the utter geekiness of fifty year old men haranguing teenagers and speaking like life is a Charles Bronson movie is incomparable!:D
sounding like a broken record here.... but guy's in their '50's are real young compared to us really old guys.... trust me, very few of us who grew up in the mid-'60's were truly geeks..... there were no personal computers then, or other geeky toys.... it was strictly cars and girls and if course, the War......

But some of us seemed to lose the anti-establishment mode - and so we became the establishment...... experts on everything.... sorry..... can't find a good hippie anymore when you need one.... we all grew up!

back to the broken record...... I can't remember having such a good time on our internal forum!

[Knifefighter]

I'm not doing this as a moral service, but purely for trolling purposes. The joy of revealing the utter geekiness of fifty year old men haranguing teenagers and speaking like life is a Charles Bronson movie is incomparable!:D

Actually, you are performing a moral service. I forgot that if you go to a forum for a style that is basically pretend theoretical non-fighting, it will be made up of a bunch of pimply-faced teenagers who do forms in their parents' basements. Thanks for pointing that out.

[goju]

Actually, you are performing a moral service. I forgot that if you go to a forum for a style that is basically pretend theoretical non-fighting, it will be made up of a bunch of pimply-faced teenagers who do forms in their parents' basements. Thanks for pointing that out.

Well yes Dale i'm sorry to dissapoint you but guys who are active well known competitors like you were (snicker) are usually busy training instead of arguing online all day with "pimply faced teenagers"

That and many of them have jobs. wives,kids etc,etc to attend to so when this all adds up arguing online tends to take a back seat to you know.... real life and stuff. :p

But i suppose once your competition days slowed down you haven't much to do besides lurk around your house all day chasing squirrels off your lawn, collecting dust, and the ever so frequent e- p enis measuring contest with your fellow KFM posters.

However i wouldn't say you don't have your uses. I never before have seen a guy your age act like this on a forum before so its provides a seemingly inexhausatable form of amusement to me and im sure many others who frequent the board.

http://www.b2bcoaching.co.uk/thumbs%20up%20low%20res.jpg

[KC Elbows]

Actually, you are performing a moral service. I forgot that if you go to a forum for a style that is basically pretend theoretical non-fighting, it will be made up of a bunch of pimply-faced teenagers who do forms in their parents' basements. Thanks for pointing that out.


I'm sorry, the culture of martial arts I prefer doesn't call for joining in on smack talking and other counter productive behaviors.

However, as I own a Hank Williams, Jr. album, I am not completely unfamiliar with mma culture.