Wing Chun influence on Peek-a-Boo boxing

[photo-master]

I remember some time ago reading in Inside kung fu or Blackbelt that Wing Chun had an influence on legendary trainer Cus D'Amato and the Peek-a-Boo boxing style. Can anybody point me to the article I may have read some 8 or ten years ago or any other information linking Wing Chun to Peek-a-Boo boxing.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe you're talking about an article in one of the mags some years ago comparing my instructor, William Cheung...comparing his TWC style (Traditional Wing Chun) to the peek-aboo style of boxing, and in particular, Mike Tyson's rendition of it.

There was an ex-boxer here in NYC named Raphael Ramos who trained at a TWC school for a few years...and Raphael did originally learn his craft at Cus D'Amato's gym.

But there was never any mention, to my recollection, of TWC having an influence on the boxing style (or the other way around, for that matter).

Rather, it was simply a comparison of both styles of fighting...since the "blindside" strategy employed in TWC does have some similarities to what Tyson used to do...

as a strategy.

But obviously the delivery systems (of the strategy) used by both arts are very different.

In short, the idea shared in common is to constantly maneuver to the outside of the opponent's punching arm.

[Bully]

Samual kwok has been helping to train a boxer, there is something on his website.

But knowing some people on here they won't bother looking as they slated him for a Chi Sau clip the other week.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What's his web address?

[Knifefighter]

LOL... you couldn't have two styles more different.

[Bully]

Google is your friend Victor.....

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Samuel+Kwok

Top link ;-)

Look under gallery and video and coaching pro boxer.

I am not a Kwok student and have no affiliation to him, just saw this on his site.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay, Bully....watched the clip. What Samuel starts to demo at around 00:25 into the vid:

Do you really think you can get all that far to the outside of a boxers lead punch like that?

That's a lot of movement to have to do with your body and both arms - using a wing chun structure - before he either snaps his punch back or throws his rear hand. Or maybe hooks off the lead.

Not a very realistic approach if you ask me.

[Bully]

I am not really qualified to comment tbh.

He is training a boxer, thought it would be interesting for the OP.

[Knifefighter]

I am not really qualified to comment tbh.

He is training a boxer, thought it would be interesting for the OP.

If that clip is any indication, that guy has no business trying to teach a boxer anything.

[Bully]

Again I have no idea, I am not very good at WC and certainly not at boxing.

Sam Kwok was the guy everyone dissed in the chi sau clip the other week in here.

He is respected in the UK, maybe he shouldn't be???

Be interested to know specifics why he shouldnt teaching a boxer??

[Wayfaring]

Do you really think you can get all that far to the outside of a boxers lead punch like that?

That's a lot of movement to have to do with your body and both arms - using a wing chun structure - before he either snaps his punch back or throws his rear hand. Or maybe hooks off the lead.

Not a very realistic approach if you ask me.

Agreed. Also the timing doesn't work. Boxers don't hold jabs out there for you to move and counter in a 1-2 fashion. Unfortunately almost every single instructional demo of virtually any martial arts technique starts with that same setup.

Now I've seen a MT coach teaching a similar type of move. The difference was to time the punch, slip slightly enough to make it miss, and at the same time strike over the punch so that your strike lands at the same time the punch reaches extension and misses.

[t_niehoff]

I believe you're talking about an article in one of the mags some years ago comparing my instructor, William Cheung...comparing his TWC style (Traditional Wing Chun) to the peek-aboo style of boxing, and in particular, Mike Tyson's rendition of it.

There was an ex-boxer here in NYC named Raphael Ramos who trained at a TWC school for a few years...and Raphael did originally learn his craft at Cus D'Amato's gym.


You talked about this on bullshido a while back (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81138&page=19), and it seems the only boxer anyone can find named Raphael Ramos was an olympic/pan am medalist from Puerto Rico (who was not trained by D'Amato).



But there was never any mention, to my recollection, of TWC having an influence on the boxing style (or the other way around, for that matter).


Considering peek was around in the late 40s and early 50s, and Cheung didn't get around to "unveiling" TWC until much later, it would be impossible for WCK to have influenced it.



Rather, it was simply a comparison of both styles of fighting...since the "blindside" strategy employed in TWC does have some similarities to what Tyson used to do...

as a strategy.


No.

BTW, getting an angle (or flank or "blindside") is a UNIVERSAL tactic/strategy.



But obviously the delivery systems (of the strategy) used by both arts are very different.

In short, the idea shared in common is to constantly maneuver to the outside of the opponent's punching arm.

The "idea" of peek is not "to constantly maneuver to the outside of the opponent's punching arm" but rather cover your face (hence the name) and use evasive movement to get inside. You may want to visit a boxing gym and see.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is William Cheung (TWC) and Rafael Ramos (peek-aboo boxing) - doing some light sparring.

And yes, this Rafael Ramos was a boxer who trained at Cus D'Amato's gym.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG1WC982Ma8&feature=related

Haven't seen him in years, and I don't recall if he spelled his first name Rafael or Raphael...but either way....he DID train in Cus' gym, and I believe he did have some fights.

[Niersun]

BTW, getting an angle (or flank or "blindside") is a UNIVERSAL tactic/strategy.



In the terms of MA, i think this tactic has been ripped off from TWC.

If you can find a MA book or boxing book prior to the late 70's & early 80's that discuss's fighting on the blind side as a tactic or strategy, i would be interested.

Tyson had knock out ability, but i pretty sure he was trained to be evasive, not "fight on the blind side". I dont recall seeing Tyson ever fighting on the blindside and i got most of his fights. The fact that he kept low and rised up for his hits with a pivot gave him his power.

[goju]

In the terms of MA, i think this tactic has been ripped off from TWC.

a variety of other tma have blindside fighting and in some instances they predate wing chun:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the terms of MA, i think this tactic has been ripped off from TWC.

If you can find a MA book or boxing book prior to the late 70's & early 80's that discuss's fighting on the blind side as a tactic or strategy, i would be interested.

Tyson had knock out ability, but i pretty sure he was trained to be evasive, not "fight on the blind side". I dont recall seeing Tyson ever fighting on the blindside and i got most of his fights. The fact that he kept low and rised up for his hits with a pivot gave him his power.

The FMA and their triangle footwork is full of "blind side" work.
Ashihara karate, an off-shot of kyokushin, is based on blind side fighting, but I am not sure when he started to develop it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

In the terms of MA, i think this tactic has been ripped off from TWC.

If you can find a MA book or boxing book prior to the late 70's & early 80's that discuss's fighting on the blind side as a tactic or strategy, i would be interested.

Tyson had knock out ability, but i pretty sure he was trained to be evasive, not "fight on the blind side". I dont recall seeing Tyson ever fighting on the blindside and i got most of his fights. The fact that he kept low and rised up for his hits with a pivot gave him his power.

***NOT TRUE, Niersun. I have a Red Sash with three Gold logos on it. Became Grandmaster William Cheung's student in 1983, (after 8 years with Moy Yat)...have hosted/organized some 25 different seminars by William Cheung, and to this day I still have the longest running TWC school in NYC.

And the "blindside strategy" that TWC uses has not been ripped off by other stylists. As far as wing chun goes, you can make the argument that no one has emphasized and developed this strategy to the extent that William Cheung has with TWC - but to say that other MA's have ripped it off from TWC is just false.

The basic premise of fighting on the blindside has always been a part of many
different striking arts to one extent or another.

[Wayfaring]

The basic premise of fighting on the blindside has always been a part of many
different striking arts to one extent or another.

Victor, basic ? for you.

Why do you guys call it the "blindside"??? Where does the blindness factor in? Many other arts call it "flanking", "angles", etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's just a word, but basically has the same connotation as "flanking."

As I think about it, something comes to mind as to why William Cheung may have chosen that word:

As you probably have read in my posts in the past, William Cheung teaches the importance of watching the opponent's elbows and knees - with particular emphasis on the lead elbow since it's the opponent's closest weapon.

This may have something to do with why he chose that word, as I can tell you from experience that watching elbows and knees does help to see what's coming in time to react efficiently.

And so the idea in the TWC blindside strategy is to work towards getting both of your arms to the outside of whatever arm the opponent is either leading or punching with as much as possible - so as to have a momentary advantage of two-on-one...

making it difficult for him to see some of your strikes because you're now on his flank - and he may be busy trying to deal with one of your arms while the other arm is being thrown at him as a strike.

[Niersun]

***NOT TRUE, Niersun. I have a Red Sash with three Gold logos on it. Became Grandmaster William Cheung's student in 1983, (after 8 years with Moy Yat)...have hosted/organized some 25 different seminars by William Cheung, and to this day I still have the longest running TWC school in NYC.

And the "blindside strategy" that TWC uses has not been ripped off by other stylists. As far as wing chun goes, you can make the argument that no one has emphasized and developed this strategy to the extent that William Cheung has with TWC - but to say that other MA's have ripped it off from TWC is just false.

The basic premise of fighting on the blindside has always been a part of many
different striking arts to one extent or another.

I guess i call you Sihing.

I have seen karate people take a side step and execute a single strike only and thats when the opponent charges. In my opinion that really isnt fighting on the blindside as a main strategy like TWC.

But then again that is from what i have only seen. I havent seen old karate tournament footage, where alot of pressure is being put on from the blindside, which is fighting from the blindside.

I will take your your word for it though and say that i am wrong.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You must see this :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty-HKXtVXS8