Core Taiji Meihua Forms

[iunojupiter]

Hello All,
This might have been answered in a previous post, and if it has, I apologize (please feel free to post a Look-Here-Stupid link). I've done some queries, but couldn't find what I was looking for, even though I thought I had seen it before.

I was wondering if anyone knows what forms would constitute the Core of Praying Mantis, primarly Taiji Meihua lineage if anyone knows.

I would fathom that some of the core forms would be

Lian Jie
Beng Bu
Ba zhao
zhai yao (all)
fan che (da and xia)
** bu chan [thanks Richard]
Any additions, removals, thoughts?

Thanks in advance,
cheers!

[mooyingmantis]

Add Bu Chan (Catch Cicada) to the list.

Also remember that, from what I understand, there are factions within TJMH PM. So there may be differences between factions.

Richard

[Tainan Mantis]

The core forms, or forms which make up the style, which still exist in TJMH would be

Lian Jie
Beng Bu
Ba zhao

Since that time there has been the addition of Zhai Yao which we can consider to be a core series of forms now.

Zhai Yao, to a certain extant, are reworkings of older forms which are either gone for good or rarely seen.

For example Tai Shan Ya Ding (Mount Tai Presses the Top) is thought of as a technique, which it is. But clearly, it was at one time a form. That form lived on in parts of the form 'Central Road Fan Che,' which is not small and large fan che. TSYD also lived on in part of the TJMH version of 3rd Zhai Yao.

Mantis Catches Cicada. I believe there are two. One is the old and short which I think no longer exists, and the other is a new creation which I suspect was created relatively recently, such as in the past few decades. I would like to know more about any version of this older form.

The original Mantis Catches Cicada was in a group of 7 very short forms that had been grouped under master Meng Su, not Wang Lang. As far as I know only one of those 7 still exists, which has been preserved by Wah Lum school of Mantis.

Article on Tai Mountain Crushes the Top (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/taishan%20crushes%20the%20top.htm)

[mooyingmantis]

Kevin,
Thank you for the information!
Why do you believe that there were two Bu Chan and that the original was a shorter form? Do you believe individual patterns were the precursor to our modern idea of "forms"?

Richard

[Fujow73]

Seeing that we are on the subject of Taichi Meihua Mantis, can someone maybe explain the differences between taichi meihua and just meihua. Is there a difference between the two, if so what are they and also are the core forms the same? I seem to find alot on the web about taichi meihua mantis but very little on just meihua mantis.

I would appreciate anyones response and help to these questions.

[YouKnowWho]

1. Lian Jie
2. Beng Bu
3. Ba zhao
4. Zhai Yao

My understand is one should train Beng Bu before Lian Jie, and Zhai Yao as the last one. The reason is Lian Jie will require "Seeing the body move but don't see the limbs move" which is difficult to achieve for the beginners.

[Siuhoimoon]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

do you know the name of the small form that you´ve mencioned (from the group of 7) that is preserved in the WL curriculum?
Does this form has a "Wah Lum" name (like bengbu = big mantis), or is it known by its original name?

Thanks in advance!

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Richard,
I would like to post those mansucripts of the old versions of bu chan and see what you think. I'll do that soon.

The Wah Lum form is called Little Mantis in America and Iron Door Bolt is the correct translation.

Fujow73,
The words Taiji and Meihua were used to describe some ideas in the Zhai Yao forms.

The original quote


Layered up like the border mountains giving no road for his hands to enter while he receives injury all over. This is the so called one complete grand ultimate (taiji)!

Can be found in this article

Leaking From the Bottom (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/leaking%20from%20the%20bottom.htm)

[mooyingmantis]

Kevin,
Thank you for the quick response!
BTW, I really enjoy reading the articles at your website. Very informative!
I learned Little Mantis (Iron Door Bolt) a few years ago when swapping forms with a Wah Lum shifu. How does it fit in with the original seven forms? In fact, any background to this form would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Richard

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Richard,
There are Seven Maneuvers, one of them is Iron Door Bolt.
Exactly how all of this fits together is hard to say. A lot of time has passed since those days and Mantis has evolved.

I'll be away from my comp for the weekend. More details later.

[iunojupiter]

I just want to thank all those that have commented so far. It is nice to see other's thoughts and teachings on the system besides my own.
Please keep the info coming!

[iunojupiter]

To keep this thread going, but on a slightly different subject, how does everyone treat short forms, which I refer to as exercises.
I imagine that all the different iterations of PM have them, but perhaps not.

My time in wah lum, we have the first 5 basic exercises, which were only generally 3-5 moves, usually repeated. I have some other exercises my Shifu taught us, and I generally like them for beginners classes.

How does everyone else treat/feel about short forms or exercises like that.

Thanks,
Josh

[mooyingmantis]

To keep this thread going, but on a slightly different subject, how does everyone treat short forms, which I refer to as exercises.
I imagine that all the different iterations of PM have them, but perhaps not.

My time in wah lum, we have the first 5 basic exercises, which were only generally 3-5 moves, usually repeated. I have some other exercises my Shifu taught us, and I generally like them for beginners classes.

How does everyone else treat/feel about short forms or exercises like that.

Thanks,
Josh

Can you give more specific examples of what you are talking about? A video perhaps?

Richard

[iunojupiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zJCgBnK1Yg&feature=related

That is Wah Lum's 16 hands, which is a beginner short form, which were refered to as exercises.
Wah Lum had 5 beginner exercises, each focusing on a particular technique, plus short forms like 16 Hands, Little Open Gate.

I have some others from other PM branches my Shifu taught us, like "Shooting Star", "1 step, 3 punch" and multiple others.

If that doesn't help, let me know. I'll see if I can find some better video, or I'll just shoot some of myself and post it (shudders).

Thanks,
Josh

[Three Harmonies]

Josh
you must understand that Wah Lum and its ilk are not traditional mantis. To the best of my knowledge there are no "short" forms in the respect you speak of, at least in traditional mantis.

Cheers
Jake

[iunojupiter]

Jake,
Thanks for the input. I understand that Wah Lum is different in it's approach, which is why I was asking if any of the other styles have similar "short forms".

I'm wondering if it's isolated, or if it there are similar things elsewhere or not, and, what people think of "short forms" (i call them exercises).

Thanks,
Josh

[Tainan Mantis]

There are a few old things in WL and some that are newer.
Eight Chain Punch looks like 'wind behind the brain' method.
Cum La Sao looks like a variation of 'hook and smash'.


Shifu taught us, like "Shooting Star", "1 step, 3 punch" and multiple others.

This is from Zhang Bingdou. I think of these as the old roads of mantis and have written some articles on some of them.


I was asking if any of the other styles have similar "short forms".

Yes, 8 step, some 7*, taiji, Mimen and Meihua mantis all have overlap in these short exercises.

Here is one that you may know;

The Hooking Step of Mantis Boxing (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/hooked%20step.htm)

One can be found here on 'one step three punches' (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2010/Onestep3punches.htm) This should look like yours, or at least very close to it.

Mandarin Duck Kick, or sometimes just called 'door closing kick' is trained as a short exercise in Mimen and Meihua. When I went to Visit Robert Hui some years ago, he surprised me by also having this exercise in his Tai Ji Mantis school. There is a close variation in 7* of this also. This article talks about the history of its founder Lin Chong as well as an application from Zhai Yao.

The Mandarin Duck Kick (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/mandarin%20duck.htm)

Another one that you might know is the 'window frame punch' (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/hide%20the%20peach.htm)
These pictures of 18 Elders doing it are clear to follow. This is one of the first exercises taught in Mei Hua Tang Lang.

There used to be some old footage of Wei Xiaotang performing at least 6 of these roads. Mike Martello (rest his soul) and I had worked together many years ago to make that information available for all.

At this time I don't know if that footage is still available on the internet or not.

Anyway, hope that gives you some clue about those old roads of Mantis.

BTW, Why the interest in this aspect?

[mantis108]

Hi Kevin,

Indeed, that was such a great time. :D

BTW, I have posted our version of one step three punches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTX7lgtfSOk) on Youtube.

Enjoy

[iunojupiter]

Tainan,
Thank you for you input! Your posts are always full of wonderful information and I enjoy them immensely.

I do know the Mandarin Duck Kick, the Hooking Step, and the Window Frame punch, just in different iterations. :D

As to my interest, the reasons are many, but for the most part, its pure curiosity. I'm a firm believer in knowledge is power, and I always like to get as much information on things as I can.
Normally, I would talk to my Shifu, but I don't get to see him much any more, and he always said that information should come from multiple sources, not just one. He had the fortune of being passed around to many different Masters during his time with his Sifu, and he credits that for his breadth of knowledge and skill.

Also, this information allows me to see the connections between the styles.

After several years of being a poor student (both money wise and attendance wise) since the birth of my son (not an excuse, just a change in priorities), i'm finally able to get back into regular training, in the hopes of being able to open my own school in a couple of years. I'd like to be able to offer my students insight into praying mantis history and philosophies that relate to not just our lineage, but others as well, hopefully giving them a better understanding of their martial arts studies.

To All: I appreciate everyones patience with me and your readiness to help my studies by providing me with any knowledge you have and continue to choose to share.

May the thread continue! (hopefully)
:D :D :D

[MasterKiller]

BTW, I have posted our version of one step three punches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTX7lgtfSOk) on Youtube.

That's identical to the first tan tui road taught in most long fist lines in Seoul.

[mantis108]

Hi Master Killer,

I uploaded an old practice session of the first section of the 64 Shou Fa that contains 12 individual moves/lines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pJzI31z-4w

Hope you enjoy it. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Yao Sing]

That is Wah Lum's 16 hands, which is a beginner short form, which were refered to as exercises.

As an exercise in understanding applicaion there are a few moves in the beginning of 16 Hands that match up with moves near the end of First Form.
If you know First Form see if you can find them.

I don't know if intentional or not but I've discovered sequences in some of the Wah Lum forms that can be matched to make a 2-man drill. I guess that's to be expected but it is fun finding them.