Go Arizona!

[1bad65]

Thank God someone finally took the lead in enforcing our immigration laws. Because of this law, Arizona residents will soon be much safer than they are now.

Source:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=146341

[David Jamieson]

Thank God someone finally took the lead in enforcing our immigration laws. Because of this law, Arizona residents will soon be much safer than they are now.

Source:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=146341

I think it will turn into a mexican standoff.

[MightyB]

Like it or not, there is a war going on at the Mexican/US border. All other border states need to follow suite with Arizona. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gMi5B2USfJStXxfqgWWr2xjRYpOgD9F9EG600

This is a war that will spill onto US soil if we don't take action now. It has already cost the lives of a couple of Americans and their very young families.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/15/world/la-fg-mexico-shootings15-2010mar15

[David Jamieson]

If anything it will force the feds into taking some form of positive action to stem the increasing problem that exists at the border or the US and Mexico.

I do believe that was the whole point of passing such radical legislation as to... well, enforce laws that already exist.

But still, going after mexicans only is not the right solution.
Go after the people who employ them illegally. Problem solved in the short term if that route is taken.

any vehicle found with illegals in it should be confiscated and the owner fined severely.

any businesses with illegals working there will be shut down and fined to the extreme.

any people actively recruiting illegals to work in their businesses will face fines and legal consequences.

Do that and your problem will disappear inside of a year.
Mexicans will realize there are ZERO jobs for them to get and employers will realize what a detriment it is to hire an illegal.

unfortunately, the lobbyists and people with money that support the politicians are also hiring these illegals.

make em pay and the problem goes away. That is the american way. :)

[SanHeChuan]

If they execute it like they are suppose to, "pursuant to their duties" it’ll be fine, and also would not have that great of an impact. Since the only illegal’s being caught under this law would be ones breaking to law, suspected of breaking the law, or calling the police for help.

What people are afraid of and shouldn’t happen is police walking up to random people asking for identification. However If the police department finds some reason to start “creating” reasonable suspicion to say seize the property of Illegal immigrants to fund their departments before deporting then there will be a problem.

What will be interesting to see is how many cases of wrongful deportation or detention there will be. US citizens are not required to carry documents proving their citizenship.

[1bad65]

However If the police department finds some reason to start “creating” reasonable suspicion to say seize the property of Illegal immigrants to fund their departments before deporting then there will be a problem.

I've not heard of any siezure provisions in the bill.

[solo1]

I’m pleased with Arizona pulling the trigger. Folks are being kidnapped, killed, robbed by illegals and what’s Washington done? The southern border is at war with the Mexican military and the drug cartels. A couple of weeks a go a Mexican army helicopter flew over the border into Texan airspace and what was the Obama regimes response? Nothing, same as Bushes, nothing. I’m in Cincinnati and we have had more then our share of issues with illegals, murders, drunk driving, robbery, molestation, rape the list goes on and on. It has subsided with the economic malaise however, as they have self deported for lack of work. We have counties that now make it illegal to be hanging around Home Depot and Lowes scrounging for day labor.

1st, businesses that hire them need to be assaulted with prison time and fines that destroy them, make it so painful to hire an illegal they self deport. A local home builder and a meat processing plant were recently raided and massacred financially for doing it.
2nd, we need a work program, maintained and monitored by the STATES that lets them in to work, if it’s available and not needed by Americans. So our unemployment numbers have to be closer to 3-5% to make that even a consideration. They go to the back of the line; any criminal history denies them entry of any kind. Wait 3-5 years before being eligible to apply for conditional workers status, if they stay clean, pay the taxes, pay a substantial fine for breaking the law in the first place then they can apply for limited citizenship, no voting rights, no land ownership, any criminal activity, even misdemeanors, results in deportation, never to return, these would apply to those who entered illegally first and these are the same laws the Mexican have on the books.
3rd Repeal Birthright citizenship, sponsored by Rep. Nathan Deal (Ga) HR 1868 the Birthright Citizenship Act of 2009: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1868/show

On a personal note, I have a Canadian wife (thank God) you cant imagine the cost and hassles one has to go through to get a foreign national legalized in this country, but its not supposed to be easy. I only see Latinos marching in the streets waving their home countries flags calling us Nazis cause we have restrictive immigration policies, I have yet to see throngs of Canadians doing the same.

[solo1]

If they execute it like they are suppose to, "pursuant to their duties" it’ll be fine, and also would not have that great of an impact. Since the only illegal’s being caught under this law would be ones breaking to law, suspected of breaking the law, or calling the police for help.

What people are afraid of and shouldn’t happen is police walking up to random people asking for identification. However If the police department finds some reason to start “creating” reasonable suspicion to say seize the property of Illegal immigrants to fund their departments before deporting then there will be a problem.

What will be interesting to see is how many cases of wrongful deportation or detention there will be. US citizens are not required to carry documents proving their citizenship.
-=-----------------------------------
Unlike some I trust the police to do their jobs, they know when someone is up to no good, they know when someone is out of place. I understand the concern for questions like "where are your papers" but considering the assault on this country by illegals ( look no further then the riots and destruction in Az this week) I think we have been left with little choice. dont want trouble with the system? dont break the law.

[mawali]

Although the intent of the law is admirable, I doubt the seriousness to which people are pretending this event only started in January 15, 2010.
My point is that there are laws already on the books that provides the impetus for dealing with those who flout the laws. Again, McCain was compassionate towards illegals up to 1 year ago so what happened? Bush (fil) had the same opportunity enforce the law but nothing was done. I am skeptical about the timing of this bill but the intent to enforce the law is positive.

When will illegal employers be punished?

[solo1]

Excellent point. AZ has borne the brunt of the illegal’s in their midst they’ve done everything they can to comply with federal laws, they had to drop the hammer. What’s the new law say? "It’s a crime to be an illegal in Arizona”, wrap your head around that. It’s illegal to be illegal!! No kidding!

The sheriff of Maricopa County, Joe Arpaio has been spearheading the problem, primarily because of resident frustration and fear. He rounds them up, and puts them in camps until the feds get them and deport them. The feds don’t follow up or worse releases them. The sheriff and the county have been sued by every acronym out there. 241,000 illegals were caught at the Az/mexico border last year, the state estimates 460k are in the state today. We are kidding ourselves if we don’t understand this is a war, these are roving gangs of drug dealers, murderers, rapists in Maricopa county. We have to get it out of our heads that the problem in Arizona is the guy picking strawberries. 460,000 illegals without jobs can only be up to one thing if there is no work for them. A Cochise County rancher was shot and killed on his own property a couple of weeks ago the guy was chased to the border and disappeared. Border towns in Texas are seeing kidnappings; murders like they haven’t seen since the early 1800s, one bar had a bag with human heads tossed into it. Instead of supporting Arizona what does our fearless leader do? He sides with these murderers, rapists, drug dealers instead of the residents of the state. He plays the race card as though American citizens living in fear in their own homes have no just reason for demanding some action. What happens if Obama figures out a way to legalize illegals? Will he wave his bony hand like parting the Red Sea and jobs will miraculously appear for them and poof ! they will become law abiding citizens? No he wants them legal to make darn sure they are on the government dole and voting for the group that will provide them with freebies, jobs is not the goal, keeping democrats in power is. A potential voting block of 11-18 million newly legalized illegals is a tough thing to ignore when you’re looking at a political slaughter in the fall.

[David Jamieson]

On a personal note, I have a Canadian wife (thank God) you cant imagine the cost and hassles one has to go through to get a foreign national legalized in this country, but its not supposed to be easy. I only see Latinos marching in the streets waving their home countries flags calling us Nazis cause we have restrictive immigration policies, I have yet to see throngs of Canadians doing the same.

good choice in the wife department! lol

the only thing that get canadians riled about americans is when the border lines to the shopping outlets are too long. :mad:

we enter legally for the most part and don't have the same social issues as Mexico whereby we have a huge drug/narco problem masses of illiterates and various other woes associated with your neighbours to the south.

i think the us and canada have a pretty good relationship in that respect overall.
namely we respect each others stuff and have a fairly decent society overall.

mexico? not so much.

[mooyingmantis]

From what I read in our local paper today, this may turn into another States rights issue. Remember the Civil War?
Though I agree with Arizona's stance.

Richard

[mawali]

Excellent point. AZ has borne the brunt of the illegal’s in their midst they’ve done everything they can to comply with federal laws, they had to drop the hammer. What’s the new law say? "It’s a crime to be an illegal in Arizona”, wrap your head around that. It’s illegal to be illegal!! No kidding!

The sheriff of Maricopa County, Joe Arpaio has been spearheading the problem, primarily because of resident frustration and fear. He rounds them up, and puts them in camps until the feds get them and deport them. The feds don’t follow up or worse releases them. The sheriff and the county have been sued by every acronym out there. 241,000 illegals were caught at the Az/mexico border last year, the state estimates 460k are in the state today. We are kidding ourselves if we don’t understand this is a war, these are roving gangs of drug dealers, murderers, rapists in Maricopa county. We have to get it out of our heads that the problem in Arizona is the guy picking strawberries. 460,000 illegals without jobs can only be up to one thing if there is no work for them. A Cochise County rancher was shot and killed on his own property a couple of weeks ago the guy was chased to the border and disappeared. Border towns in Texas are seeing kidnappings; murders like they haven’t seen since the early 1800s, one bar had a bag with human heads tossed into it. Instead of supporting Arizona what does our fearless leader do? He sides with these murderers, rapists, drug dealers instead of the residents of the state. He plays the race card as though American citizens living in fear in their own homes have no just reason for demanding some action. What happens if Obama figures out a way to legalize illegals? Will he wave his bony hand like parting the Red Sea and jobs will miraculously appear for them and poof ! they will become law abiding citizens? No he wants them legal to make darn sure they are on the government dole and voting for the group that will provide them with freebies, jobs is not the goal, keeping democrats in power is. A potential voting block of 11-18 million newly legalized illegals is a tough thing to ignore when you’re looking at a political slaughter in the fall.

If Ronald Reagun is the godhead of his party and legalized illegals x years ago then it would follow that anyone who does the same action is as valid as R. Reagun. How honest and objective can one get to show the hypocracy of elected officials regardless of their affiliation?!

I admire Sheriff Arpaio because his authority allows him, in the performance of his duties, to get the illegals. My problem is that according to this bill (if it is stated as it is) is that people will be stopped because they are brown (more or less) and speak with an accent and if they cannot produce the ID asked by ICE then the deporattion process will be started immediately.

Another problem is that when Republicans, who are in favour of the bill are asked to comment, they, as a rule. neglect to comment thereby underming the constituency they represent. Marco Rubio (R-Florida) is the only one who has made comments.
Criminal of any affiliation should be caught and dealth with to the fullest extent of the law!

[1bad65]

Although the intent of the law is admirable, I doubt the seriousness to which people are pretending this event only started in January 15, 2010.
My point is that there are laws already on the books that provides the impetus for dealing with those who flout the laws. Again, McCain was compassionate towards illegals up to 1 year ago so what happened? Bush (fil) had the same opportunity enforce the law but nothing was done. I am skeptical about the timing of this bill but the intent to enforce the law is positive.

When will illegal employers be punished?

That's pretty accurate. The laws on the books that were not being enforced are Federal laws. Since the Obama regime was not enforcing the law, Arizona took it upon themselves to pass a State law that they themselves could enforce.

Quite honestly, this is pretty much how the Founders wanted the country to work. A State has a problem, so they pass laws to address the problem. Pretty simple, actually.

[solo1]

good choice in the wife department! lol

the only thing that get canadians riled about americans is when the border lines to the shopping outlets are too long. :mad:

we enter legally for the most part and don't have the same social issues as Mexico whereby we have a huge drug/narco problem masses of illiterates and various other woes associated with your neighbours to the south.

i think the us and canada have a pretty good relationship in that respect overall.
namely we respect each others stuff and have a fairly decent society overall.

mexico? not so much.


agreed and on that note Canadians requirments for entry and citizenship are tougher then ours. If i read correctly Taiwanese coming into the Great White North a few years ago had to prove a net worth, no criminal history, employment waiting for them in Canada, place to live and were not allowed access to government aid. Canada took it seriously. the other side is that Canada makes it clear we want the best and brightest not welfare cases.

[solo1]

Arizona has taken up where the feds have failed. On a comment above in the US if you are NOT a citizen you are required by law to carry your papers with you everywhere. touritst, traveling in the US? have your passport with you at all times, resident alien, green card at all times. So the police asking you for your papers is not racial profiling its the law. Mentioned it before, I have a Canadian wife and we were informed by both our immigration lawyers and homeland security "you are required to carry your documents with you at alll times , dont leave the house without your green card". The back of the green card has the same statment. You can be asked at any time to produce it. This was not a case of being pulled over randomly but if she needed to produce ID for a bank account, drivers license, health care she had to have the green card with to prove she was here legally or face deportation.
Next why is the US allowing anything with a pulse over the border? all we are taking at the southern border is the refuse of these third world countries, they are not sending us the best educated, brightest achievers they are sending us the illiterate, uneducated, unhealthy, and unemployable. Hate saying it but in this instance we could learn something from Mexico and Canadas immigration laws.

[SanHeChuan]

On a comment above in the US if you are NOT a citizen you are required by law to carry your papers with you everywhere.

If you are a citizen you are not required to carry anything. So how do they tell a citizen from someone who doesn't have legal documentation? Illegal’s can have residences, bank accounts, and even drivers license from some states. Will they hold a citizen until they can prove their citizenship? How long will they hold you for, until the government can send a new birth certificate or Social security card to your family? There are near 2 million legal hispanics in Arizona who would have reasonable concern over the answers to these questions.

[1bad65]

Well first off, employers are bound by law to have on file documentation that shows every single worker is legally allowed to be employed in the US.

[Drake]

So the solution is to pull over and stop every hispanic they see and demand a birth certificate? Yeah, that's racial profiling, especially in a state that has a LOT of hispanics. I bet they'll demand Peggy Smith show her green card as well if she has an Irish accent? Seriously?

It's a knee jerk reaction to a growing problem. Secure the borders. Don't start pulling over every dark skinned guy and demanding to see their green card. That is wrong and reeks of a police state.

You all like quoting our forefathers when it suits you, then how about telling me who said this?

"Those who are willing to sacrifice liberty in order to gain a security deserve neither and will lose both."

Again...the plan is poorly conceived, racist, and the product of white people who fail to grasp the nature of their own country. The borders need to be secured, and people continue to ignore that elephant in the room.

[David Jamieson]

I think the whole thing about throwing reasonable cause out the window isn't being addressed.

The cops Know they can't do a search and seizure without reasonable cause.

I think people are assuming they will.
The law that was passed basically firms up the enforcement of laws that pre-existed.

What it is serving as is a deterrent apparently. the illegal day labourers are shuffling underground and it's only a matter of time before the police start looking at who is hiring the people. Who is giving the incentives to come?

[1bad65]

So the solution is to pull over and stop every hispanic they see and demand a birth certificate? Yeah, that's racial profiling, especially in a state that has a LOT of hispanics. I bet they'll demand Peggy Smith show her green card as well if she has an Irish accent? Seriously?

When you get stopped, by law you have to identify yourself. This includes having something like a driver license, State issued ID, Social Security card, etc. If you fail to provide adequate ID, the police are allowed to take you into custody until they confirm your identity. This applies to all people stopped by the police, citizen or not.

[1bad65]

I think people are assuming they will.
The law that was passed basically firms up the enforcement of laws that pre-existed.

Exactly. Had the Obama regime simply enforced the Federal laws currently on the books, it's very likely Arizona would not have passed this law.


What it is serving as is a deterrent apparently. the illegal day labourers are shuffling underground and it's only a matter of time before the police start looking at who is hiring the people. Who is giving the incentives to come?

Actually so far, they are leaving Arizona, which is what the law intended to happen. So, either other states will have to do the same, or they will inherit Arizona's problem. I saw a story yesterday on Yahoo confirming this. I can't find it now, but it's bookmarked on my home computer. I'll post it up tonight.

[Lucas]

When you get stopped, by law you have to identify yourself. This includes having something like a driver license, State issued ID, Social Security card, etc. If you fail to provide adequate ID, the police are allowed to take you into custody until they confirm your identity. This applies to all people stopped by the police, citizen or not.

yep

i havent really looked into all this. its weird because i have several mexican friends, that are kind of offended.

[SanHeChuan]

Exactly. Had the Obama regime simply enforced the Federal laws currently on the books, it's very likely Arizona would not have passed this law.

Yes all the illegal immigrants came here during Obama's presidency, and we never had an immigration problem when republicans were in office. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Here is that article I mentioned earlier, the one about how the illegals are indeed leaving Arizona as the law was designed to do.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100429/D9FCDCN00.html

[1bad65]

Yes all the illegal immigrants came here during Obama's presidency, and we never had an immigration problem when republicans were in office. :rolleyes:

STFU. I never said that.

I said the Federal Gov't was not enforcing the Federal laws already on the books, and that is true.

[SnowDog]

So the solution is to pull over and stop every hispanic they see and demand a birth certificate? Yeah, that's racial profiling, especially in a state that has a LOT of hispanics. I bet they'll demand Peggy Smith show her green card as well if she has an Irish accent? Seriously?

It's a knee jerk reaction to a growing problem. Secure the borders. Don't start pulling over every dark skinned guy and demanding to see their green card. That is wrong and reeks of a police state.

You all like quoting our forefathers when it suits you, then how about telling me who said this?

"Those who are willing to sacrifice liberty in order to gain a security deserve neither and will lose both."

Again...the plan is poorly conceived, racist, and the product of white people who fail to grasp the nature of their own country. The borders need to be secured, and people continue to ignore that elephant in the room.


Did you see on the news last night Scott McInnis who is running for Colo's new Gov, stated that if he won that he would want to mirror AZ's new immigration law for Colo.

[SanHeChuan]

STFU. I never said that.

I said the Federal Gov't was not enforcing the Federal laws already on the books, and that is true.

You singled out Obama, you didn't just say the federal government, which is to imply that it is a problem he created. Obama did pass the Immigration Detention Reforms in 2009 to give ICE more room to Hold illegal’s for deportation. Before, and till they get built, ICE had to let illegal’s go for want of a place to put them.

And conservatives are responsible for the defeat of the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 under Bush.

[Drake]

Did you see on the news last night Scott McInnis who is running for Colo's new Gov, stated that if he won that he would want to mirror AZ's new immigration law for Colo.

I'm not a CO resident. I'm just stationed here.

[Drake]

When you get stopped, by law you have to identify yourself. This includes having something like a driver license, State issued ID, Social Security card, etc. If you fail to provide adequate ID, the police are allowed to take you into custody until they confirm your identity. This applies to all people stopped by the police, citizen or not.

The only time I've ever had to identify myself was when I was pulled over for speeding. Otherwise, I tend to end up having a conversation with them, and we both go on our way. Should that change if I have an accent and darker skin?

[Lucas]

im obviously white. growing up i was stopped by cops many times and asked for ID. it of course was not racial profiling, it was a different type of profiling. it was due to the way that i dressed. most of those times however i did not have ID and was then asked my social, DOB, etc... then checked through the system for warrents and then let on my way. i was even told more than once that im required to carry some form of identification.

i believe it depends on what your particular state law is though.

[1bad65]

The only time I've ever had to identify myself was when I was pulled over for speeding. Otherwise, I tend to end up having a conversation with them, and we both go on our way. Should that change if I have an accent and darker skin?

You've never had to show ID at an airport? When using a credit card? Have you ever had to produce ID to rent a U-Haul? Or a hotel room? What about when picking up prescriptions at a pharmacy? Ever get carded going to club?

Let's be honest, it happens to everyone all the time.

[1bad65]

You singled out Obama, you didn't just say the federal government, which is to imply that it is a problem he created.

It isn't implying ****. Stop putting words in my mouth. You do this constantly. Either you are too stupid to comprehend what I'm typing, or my arguments are so strong you have to make up things I didn't say in order to debate me. Which is it?

I simply said the Federal gov't is not enforcing the laws. Yes, Obama is the President. But I never even hinted he is to blame for the problem. So knock this crap off.

[Reality_Check]

I simply said the Federal gov't is not enforcing the laws. Yes, Obama is the President. But I never even hinted he is to blame for the problem. So knock this crap off.

No, you said:


Exactly. Had the Obama regime simply enforced the Federal laws currently on the books, it's very likely Arizona would not have passed this law.

You didn't say "if Immigration simply enforced the Federal laws..." or "if the FBI simply enforced the laws...". You specifically mentioned President Obama. The Obama Administration is not the entirety of the Federal Government. If you meant Federal Government, you should have said Federal Government. By saying "Obama regime" you placed the blame squarely on his Administration.

[1bad65]

Yup, I said that. Where did I say he was the cause of the illegals coming here? Where did I say we didn't have an illegal immigrant problem before Obama?

[1bad65]

Before you blame the GOP for invading people's privacy, take a look at the Democrats proposal: :eek:

"A plan by Senate Democratic leaders to reform the nation’s immigration laws ran into strong opposition from civil liberties defenders before lawmakers even unveiled it Thursday.

Democratic leaders have proposed requiring every worker in the nation to carry a national identification card with biometric information, such as a fingerprint, within the next six years, according to a draft of the measure.
The national ID program would be titled the Believe System, an acronym for Biometric Enrollment, Locally stored Information and Electronic Verification of Employment.

The proposal is one of the biggest differences between the newest immigration reform proposal and legislation crafted by late Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

The national ID program would be titled the Believe System, an acronym for Biometric Enrollment, Locally stored Information and Electronic Verification of Employment.

It would require all workers across the nation to carry a card with a digital encryption key that would have to match work authorization databases.

“The cardholder’s identity will be verified by matching the biometric identifier stored within the microprocessing chip on the card to the identifier provided by the cardholder that shall be read by the scanner used by the employer,” states the Democratic legislative proposal.

The American Civil Liberties Union, a civil liberties defender often aligned with the Democratic Party, wasted no time in blasting the plan.

“Creating a biometric national ID will not only be astronomically expensive, it will usher government into the very center of our lives. Every worker in America will need a government permission slip in order to work. And all of this will come with a new federal bureaucracy — one that combines the worst elements of the DMV and the TSA,” said Christopher Calabrese, ACLU legislative counsel.

“America’s broken immigration system needs real, workable reform, but it cannot come at the expense of privacy and individual freedoms,” Calabrese added.

The ACLU said “if the biometric national ID card provision of the draft bill becomes law, every worker in America would have to be fingerprinted.”

A source at one pro-immigration reform group described the proposal as “Orwellian.”

But Senate Democratic Whip **** Durbin (Ill.), who has worked on the proposal and helped unveil it at a press conference Thursday, predicted the public has become more comfortable with the idea of a national identification card.

“The biometric identification card is a critical element here,” Durbin said. “For a long time it was resisted by many groups, but now we live in a world where we take off our shoes at the airport and pull out our identification.

“People understand that in this vulnerable world, we have to be able to present identification,” Durbin added. “We want it to be reliable, and I think that’s going to help us in this debate on immigration.”

Implementing a nationwide identification program for every worker will be a difficult task.

The Social Security Administration has estimated that 3.6 million Americans would have to visit SSA field offices to correct mistakes in records or else risk losing their jobs.

Angela Kelley, vice president of immigration policy at the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank, said the biometric identification provision “will give some people pause.”

But she applauded Democrats for not shying away from the toughest issues in the immigration reform debate.

“What I like about the outline is that Democrats are not trying to hide the ball or soft-pedal the tough decisions,” Kelley said. “It seems a very sincere effort to get the conversation started. This is a serious effort to get Republicans to the table.”

Reform Immigration for America, a pro-immigrant group, praised Democrats for getting the discussion started but said the framework fell short.

“The proposal revealed today [Thursday] is in part the result of more than a year of bipartisan negotiations and represents a possible path forward on immigration reform,” the group said in a statement. “This framework is not there yet.”

Democrats and pro-immigration groups will now begin to put pressure on Republicans to participate in serious talks to address the issue. The bipartisan effort in the Senate suffered a serious setback when Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) pulled back from talks with Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.).

“We call on Republican Senators to review this framework and sit down at the negotiating table in good faith,” Reform Immigration for America said in a statement. “This is a national problem that requires a federal solution and the input of leaders in both parties.”

Durbin said Democratic leaders are trying to recruit other Republican partners.

“We’re making a commitment to establishing a framework to work toward comprehensive immigration reform, and I think it’s a good framework and now we’re engaging our friends on the other side of the aisle to join us in this conversation,” Durbin said."

Source:
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrats-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card

[Drake]

They just changed the law so that someone has to actually be suspected of breaking the law before they could ask about citizenship. That's much better. I'm cool with it now.

[SanHeChuan]

They just changed the law so that someone has to actually be suspected of breaking the law before they could ask about citizenship. That's much better. I'm cool with it now.

Verified

Arizona lawmakers modify immigration law (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-arizona-immigration-20100501,0,2712336.story?track=rss)


Legislators ban race from being used by police as a factor to identify illegal immigrants and require scrutiny only of people who police stop, detain or arrest.

Wouldn't they have done that to begin with? :confused:

[David Jamieson]

STFU. I never said that.

I said the Federal Gov't was not enforcing the Federal laws already on the books, and that is true.

the federal government has failed to do so under not jusy Obamas 1 +years but also under Bushes 8 years there was a failure in immigration enforcement.

prior to that Clinton failed.

prior to that Bush S failed

prior to that Reagan failed

and so on.

fwiw, you did blame Obama directly and no the feds in particular. You did single him out and shc calle dyou on it. Now man up. admit it and lets move on. :p


1bad65 said:Exactly. Had the Obama regime simply enforced the Federal laws currently on the books, it's very likely Arizona would not have passed this law.

[1bad65]

fwiw, you did blame Obama directly and no the feds in particular. You did single him out and shc calle dyou on it. Now man up. admit it and lets move on. :p

Are you this dense too? I never blamed the guy for the illegal immigration problem in any way whatsoever. I simply said his regime was not enforcing the Federal laws on the books. If Todd Smith had been the President, and his Administration approached immigration as Obama has, I would have said his Administration was not enforcing the Federal laws.

[SanHeChuan]

Thank God someone finally took the lead in enforcing our immigration laws. Because of this law, Arizona residents will soon be much safer than they are now.

Source:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=146341

Both sides in Arizona's immigration debate use crime argument (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/02/nation/la-na-arizona-crime-20100503)

That's no surprise to those who study immigration — both sides, whether for or against increased immigration, agree that immigrants tend to commit fewer crimes than native-born Americans.

[SnowDog]

Both sides in Arizona's immigration debate use crime argument (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/02/nation/la-na-arizona-crime-20100503)

It's funny when I read this I started thinking, living in Colo and even the year or so I lived in New Mexico. Most of the Illegals I met (and worked with) were actually really nice hard working people, and all of the stupid gangbanger punks (or wantabees) who were constantly destroying property, stealing, mugging, etc... that I ran accross were all US born. Go Figure.

[1bad65]

Both sides in Arizona's immigration debate use crime argument (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/02/nation/la-na-arizona-crime-20100503)

But if we got them out of our country, EVERY crime they commit wouldn't happen. One crime is too many.

Look, I'm not anti-immigration. Plenty of immigrants have came to this country, paid their taxes, and become productive citizens. I'm anti illegal immigration.

[SanHeChuan]

Arizona Ethnic Studies Classes Banned, Teachers With Accents Can No Longer Teach English (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/30/arizona-ethnic-studies-cl_n_558731.html)

[Drake]

Arizona Ethnic Studies Classes Banned, Teachers With Accents Can No Longer Teach English (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/30/arizona-ethnic-studies-cl_n_558731.html)

Actually... the phrase is ungrammatical, and the accents must be heavy. I don't like the room given for interpretation, but it makes sense at the core.

[1bad65]

Considering 'Ethnic Studies' is an area where known frauds like Ward Churchill are considered experts and are allowed to 'teach', I'm all for doing away with them.

[Drake]

Considering 'Ethnic Studies' is an area where known frauds like Ward Churchill are considered experts and are allowed to 'teach', I'm all for doing away with them.

Uh oh...you'd take away a freedom of choice?

[1bad65]

Uh oh...you'd take away a freedom of choice?

Notice you didn't see me calling for a law banning them in PRIVATE institutions. But if a public institution decides to de-fund classes that are ripe with fraud, I'm all for saving the taxpayers money. If you want to take Ethnic Studies, fine. You fund it, not the taxpayers.

[Drake]

Notice you didn't see me calling for a law banning them in PRIVATE institutions. But if a public institution decides to de-fund classes that are ripe with fraud, I'm all for saving the taxpayers money. If you want to take Ethnic Studies, fine. You fund it, not the taxpayers.

So you think state institutions, which are financially just about the only way most kids can afford college, should limit their choices based off of YOUR idea of what an education should be?

[1bad65]

So you think state institutions, which are financially just about the only way most kids can afford college, should limit their choices based off of YOUR idea of what an education should be?

Not at all. They made the choice, and I agree with their choice.

And we all know you're playing Devil's advocate here. No way are you defending a program that reveres Ward Churchill. ;)

[1bad65]

One more thing; San's link appears to be talking about public high schools, not colleges.

From the article:

"As ThinkProgress notes, the Tucson Unified School District's popular Mexican-American studies department is the target here. The state superintendent charges that the program exhibits "ethnic chauvinism."

Meanwhile, in a move that was more covert until the Wall Street Journal uncovered it, the Arizona Department of Education has told schools that teachers with "heavy" or "ungrammatical" accents are no longer allowed to teach English classes."

Tucson Unified School District sounds like a city's public school system, not a State University.

And the second paragraph mentions "teachers", not "professors".

[dimethylsea]

Next why is the US allowing anything with a pulse over the border? all we are taking at the southern border is the refuse of these third world countries, they are not sending us the best educated, brightest achievers they are sending us the illiterate, uneducated, unhealthy, and unemployable. Hate saying it but in this instance we could learn something from Mexico and Canadas immigration laws.


Seems like if outright selfishness is the point (i.e. America for Americans) we should encourage the peasants to immigrate here and keep the high-paying top-notch gigs for the native born.

I've never understood that bit. I mean.. if you believe in strong borders ok.. if you believe in open borders.. ok.

But why create problems for middle-class young people by importing skilled educated competition for them?

The border is a mess.. but the border is a mess because of the War On Drugs and over a half century of American narco-enforcement imperialism.

The only reason there is a war on in Northern Mexico is because Americans aren't sensible.

You can either have
1. Lots of dope imported
2. Lots of dope produced domestically.
3. There is no other option. You can't stop Americans from getting high.

This is part of why the world both loves and loathes us. America is a nation of children who don't want to acknowledge they cannot EAT the cake and HAVE the cake as well.

[Drake]

Not at all. They made the choice, and I agree with their choice.

And we all know you're playing Devil's advocate here. No way are you defending a program that reveres Ward Churchill. ;)

Reveres Ward Churchill? One college screwed up and hired a plagiaristic wifebeater. How does that warrant dissolving an entire field of study?

[1bad65]

Reveres Ward Churchill? One college screwed up and hired a plagiaristic wifebeater. How does that warrant dissolving an entire field of study?

He was considered an expert in that field. And not just at that one college either.

While Ethnic Studies may indeed be a legit field of study, when you have frauds running Dept Chairs in that field, it's being ran as a joke.

[Reality_Check]

But if we got them out of our country, EVERY crime they commit wouldn't happen. One crime is too many.

Look, I'm not anti-immigration. Plenty of immigrants have came to this country, paid their taxes, and become productive citizens. I'm anti illegal immigration.

You seem to have become somewhat radicalized though.

This poster seems much more reasonable...


Actually Becca is correct according to many economists. If American citizens did those jobs, they would demand more money to do them. And since the employers labor costs will have increased, the price of his product/services will increase.

Part of the reason the illegals will take the job for less money is the fact its tax-free. A citizen would be forced to pay taxes and thus would require higher wages. The employer would have to pay the higher wages and would pass the cost on to the consumer.


The key word here is 'used'. So many Americans have an entitlement mentality. They feel they are owed a good, not hard job. While many successful people worked hard in their younger years to achive success, that spirit is sadly fading IMO.

The illegals are not taking jobs that Americans want. Really, how many Americans do you know who aspire to be janitors, laborers, dishwashers, etc?


I do not condone illegal immigration. I personally feel the laws should be enforced.

I am pointing out the 'it is what it is' part. For so many years illegal immigration has really been pretty much accepted and thus the illegal immigrants play a large factor in the economy.

If you suddenly rigidly enfore something that has been condoned/accepted for decades it will cause alot of economic problems.


You and I live in a different world then. It has been accepted by many people. Wrong or right, that is true. Even the politicians from BOTH major parties are terrified of the issue. No one wants to fix it, because they fear not only the impact on the economy, but they fear the 'R word' label too.



So is it being enforced or not? You are taking both sides. I say it is technically enforced, but that's like pulling over 1 or 2 cars a day on a road that has a 65mph speed limit full of hundreds of cars driving 120mph. Since the odds are so small of being caught, the law is not being enforced in near the capacity to fix the problem.

[1bad65]

You seem to have become somewhat radicalized though.

This poster seems much more reasonable...

Things changed when illegals began kidnapping and killing American citizens in Arizona.

I still stand by those earlier posts. If we were to somehow throw every one of them out, prices of some good and services will go up. But protecting Americans from "all enemies foreign and domestic" is a Constitutional duty of Government.

[1bad65]

And notice my message is not changing. You put up this old quote of mine: "I do not condone illegal immigration. I personally feel the laws should be enforced." Notice this is exactly my argument now.

[Drake]

Illegal immigrants in AZ were harmless. They were just trying to get jobs. The dangerous people were the drug runners and coyotes. I should know... I lived south of the checkpoints in AZ for a good four years of my career.

[Reality_Check]

And notice my message is not changing. You put up this old quote of mine: "I do not condone illegal immigration. I personally feel the laws should be enforced." Notice this is exactly my argument now.

And notice, I didn't say your message changed.

[Reality_Check]

Things changed when illegals began kidnapping and killing American citizens in Arizona.

Evidence please.

[Drake]

Evidence please.

He may be referring to the jump of murders in El Paso, but that is being done more by hired people crossing over and killing instead of immigrants looking for work.

Which goes back to my original point of securing the borders.

[Drake]

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Are we so in love with our HDTVs that we've forgotten what we represent?

[mawali]

Again I say politicians on both sides try to play both sides! Lying pieces of shat, most, if not all of them.

They pretend to be outraged at illegals but allow with impunity, employers of illegals.
A recent law that was passed last year, where both sides, allowed the exclusion of E Verify so as not to **** off illegal employers and no media reported this. If it was reported, it garnered a 5 second play!

Here's a link on the E-Verify safety net no one one to use! Actually, very few use it.
http://www.vancesecurityusa.com/

[1bad65]

Evidence please.

Sure thing.

The murder of Robert Krentz:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/apx_illegal_immigrant_rancher_death_033010

Phoenix is the kidnapping capitol of the US:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

[1bad65]

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Are we so in love with our HDTVs that we've forgotten what we represent?

I'm all for LEGAL immigration. It's ILLEGAL immigration we are discussing and what Arizona's law is aimed at. This will not affect LEGAL immigrants at all.

[Drake]

I'm all for LEGAL immigration. It's ILLEGAL immigration we are discussing and what Arizona's law is aimed at. This will not affect LEGAL immigrants at all.

It IS affecting legal immigrants. Have you been following the fallout of the bill in AZ?

[Reality_Check]

Sure thing.

The murder of Robert Krentz:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/apx_illegal_immigrant_rancher_death_033010

Phoenix is the kidnapping capitol of the US:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

The murder of Roberty Krentz is still an open investigation. It could have been a illegal immigrant. It could have been done by drug smugglers.

So, while your allegation that the murder was performed by an illegal immigrant is possible, it is most definitely not a certainty.

Regarding all of the kidnappings done in Phoenix, how many are performed by illegal immigrants? According to your article:


In fact, kidnappings and other crimes connected to the Mexican drug cartels are quickly spreading across the border, from Texas to California. The majority of the victims are either illegal aliens or connected to the drug trade.

As a matter of fact, in that article, illegal immigrants are only mentioned as the victims of kidnappings, not the perpretrators.

Please provide some evidence that illegal immigrants are performing the kidnappings.

[Drake]

The murder of Roberty Krentz is still an open investigation. It could have been a illegal immigrant. It could have been done by drug smugglers.

So, while your allegation that the murder was performed by an illegal immigrant is possible, it is most definitely not a certainty.

Regarding all of the kidnappings done in Phoenix, how many are performed by illegal immigrants? According to your article:



As a matter of fact, in that article, illegal immigrants are only mentioned as the victims of kidnappings, not the perpretrators.

Please provide some evidence that illegal immigrants are performing the kidnappings.

Actually...the immigrants are among those being kidnapped. Received a brief on that from my intel unit there.

[1bad65]

It IS affecting legal immigrants. Have you been following the fallout of the bill in AZ?

The letter of the law in that bill does not affect them. If people are panicking, it doesn't mean the bill affects LEGAL immigrants.

Can you show where the bill itself affects them?

[1bad65]

Actually...the immigrants are among those being kidnapped. Received a brief on that from my intel unit there.

So again, we have a problem that will be solved if this bill is successful at doing what it is aiming for. So what's the problem? :confused:

[1bad65]

As a matter of fact, in that article, illegal immigrants are only mentioned as the victims of kidnappings, not the perpretrators.

Please provide some evidence that illegal immigrants are performing the kidnappings.

Even if not one is done by illegals (and I'm not admitting this is true), if they are the targets, law enforcement resources, ie tax dollars, are being spent because of illegal immigrants. Ship em back and save the money. Give those cops more time and resources to protect AMERICANS, not illegal immigrants.

[Reality_Check]

Even if not one is done by illegals (and I'm not admitting this is true), if they are the targets, law enforcement resources, ie tax dollars, are being spent because of illegal immigrants. Ship em back and save the money. Give those cops more time and resources to protect AMERICANS, not illegal immigrants.

Or couldn't the kidnappers then target Americans as the easy prey has dried up? So, to be utterly callous, aren't the illegal immigrants performing a service (albeit an unwilling one) by being the targets of the kidnappings?

[1bad65]

So, we don't pass laws to fix problems we have now because there MIGHT be other problems popping up later?

[Drake]

So, we don't pass laws to fix problems we have now because there MIGHT be other problems popping up later?

The law isn't going to fix anything. Period. Might break a few things, but it won't fix the border problem.

[1bad65]

The law isn't going to fix anything. Period. Might break a few things, but it won't fix the border problem.

I posted a link showing some illegals are indeed leaving Arizona.

What will likely happen is that many will move to other States. So either those States and/or the Federal government will have to act or other States will face the same mess Arizona had to clean up.

[Drake]

The letter of the law in that bill does not affect them. If people are panicking, it doesn't mean the bill affects LEGAL immigrants.

Can you show where the bill itself affects them?

Seems like a whole lot of people are panicking...including Tucson and Flagstaff...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/06/arizona.immigration.boycott/index.html?hpt=T3

[mawali]

What will likely happen is that many will move to other States. So either those States and/or the Federal government will have to act or other States will face the same mess Arizona had to clean up.

They will move to Kansas, Iowa and Nebraska! Many are in Illinois and Wisconsin!
Illegal employers (to me) are the problem so why isn't there more emphasis on punishing them!

But wait, the "Corporations are People Fiasco" will allows more corporate monies to decide the fate of elections and some of our elected representatives want corporations (some more than others), the employer of illegals, to take part and potentially drive voting decisions Hell No!

[1bad65]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/05/06/arizona.immigration.boycott/index.html?hpt=T3

That "La Raza" group is calling for a boycott.

I've heard of them before. Their slogan is "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada", which translates to “For the race everything, outside the race nothing”.

Well, let's see how this boycott works. ;) Considering 70% of Arizonans support the new law, my guess is it will have little to no effect.

[1bad65]

They will move to Kansas, Iowa and Nebraska! Many are in Illinois and Wisconsin!
Illegal employers (to me) are the problem so why isn't there more emphasis on punishing them!

But wait, the "Corporations are People Fiasco" will allows more corporate monies to decide the fate of elections and some of our elected representatives want corporations (some more than others), the employer of illegals, to take part and potentially drive voting decisions Hell No!

Actually Arizona's law does punish those who employ illegal aliens. Those who oppose this new law often leave that part of the new law out when arguing against it.

[1bad65]

Seems like a whole lot of people are panicking...including Tucson and Flagstaff...

So when cities file suit to block a State law, it's a good thing. But when States file suit to block Federal laws, it's sour grapes and they should shut up because they lost the election. Right?