a video clip for your viewing pleasure

[wkmark]

I would like to share with you all a recent video clip of our practice. Yes, i know there are some minor issues here and there; good thing for videos so i that i can look back and examine it myself. Feel free to make constructive comments or if you have a question, i will try to answer it as best as I could.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhTphaxJuUg

[HumbleWCGuy]

What was the purpose of that? You guys started out attached and then kind of started sparring from an unattached range. The footwork and the structure need to be adjusted based on whether you are attached or not attached.

If you are going spar unatached, i recommend that you either blade or stance or put your hands up boxer style. Also, when I see WC fighters come from range to engage each other in chi sao, I call that "playing wing chun." The best advice that I can give you concerning that would be to infuse your Wing Chun with some boxing-style training or atleast smooth out those strikes. You guys seamed kinda stiff all the way around. I know that you guys were slap fighting which I am not real sure of as a sound training method, but you guys looked stiff with your punches. Maybe wearing gloves would help?

[Wayfaring]

Well, everyone is wanting to see more video clips around here, so thanks for putting it up.

The one question I have is why the vast majority of all wing chun studios, clubs, kwoons, practice areas have mirrors on the walls, and why MMA, MT, boxing, wrestling schools, studios, clubs have padding on the walls? Ballet and dance studios have a lot of mirrors too, and stretch bars.

I could postulate that people build their enviornments around their intended activities.

[wkmark]

What was the purpose of that? You guys started out attached and then kind of started sparring from an unattached range. The footwork and the structure need to be adjusted based on whether you are attached or not attached.

If you are going spar unatached, i recommend that you either blade or stance or put your hands up boxer style. Also, when I see WC fighters come from range to engage each other in chi sao, I call that "playing wing chun." The best advice that I can give you concerning that would be to infuse your Wing Chun with some boxing-style training or atleast smooth out those strikes. You guys seamed kinda stiff all the way around. I know that you guys were slap fighting which I am not real sure of as a sound training method, but you guys looked stiff with your punches. Maybe wearing gloves would help?

Thanks for your comments. The purpose of this exercise was to attack/defend and control all at the same time. (without killing each other). We start off under Chi Sao and then after that we can either be attached OR unattached ranges. It's more freestyle. There are no set limits. This is for the purpose of trying to gain entry as well as defend/ when someone enters our areas. The slaps are actually not slaps (youtube does no justice in this and there is no way to let you know this except to try it yourself. HAHA) they are palm strikes pushing upwards. The punches are pulled because if it wasn't the whole thing would have ended in seconds. We DO use gloves, but then using gloves will also limit our palm hits. We Do use MMA gloves, but still, punches with those have to be pulled UNLESS we wear full face mask which we do but there are of course other issues with that.

Another point of this exercise is to practice a moving stance/ balance as well as controlling the centerline. We stop only when one has full control over the other person. FYI, this is a WSL Ving Tsun method.

[wkmark]

Well, everyone is wanting to see more video clips around here, so thanks for putting it up.

The one question I have is why the vast majority of all wing chun studios, clubs, kwoons, practice areas have mirrors on the walls, and why MMA, MT, boxing, wrestling schools, studios, clubs have padding on the walls? Ballet and dance studios have a lot of mirrors too, and stretch bars.

I could postulate that people build their enviornments around their intended activities.

The purpose of the mirrors are for students to be able to check out their forms and stances.. posture... etc. Even when you chi sao, you can still check out your stance and forms from a side angle.

Paddings will be added next though. =P

[HumbleWCGuy]

Well, everyone is wanting to see more video clips around here, so thanks for putting it up.

The one question I have is why the vast majority of all wing chun studios, clubs, kwoons, practice areas have mirrors on the walls, and why MMA, MT, boxing, wrestling schools, studios, clubs have padding on the walls? Ballet and dance studios have a lot of mirrors too, and stretch bars.

I could postulate that people build their enviornments around their intended activities.

To me, the mirrors represent a difference in the level of precision that is expected between TMA striking and mma striking.

[Wayfaring]

To me, the mirrors represent a difference in the level of precision that is expected between TMA striking and mma striking.

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/554/original/facepalm.jpg?1248715065

[HumbleWCGuy]

Maybe if you actually trained seriously, you might understand what I am saying. MMA striking is low quality because the people who learn it don't want quality and the people who teach it don't bother to provide.

[anerlich]

The one question I have is why the vast majority of all wing chun studios, clubs, kwoons, practice areas have mirrors on the walls, and why MMA, MT, boxing, wrestling schools, studios, clubs have padding on the walls? Ballet and dance studios have a lot of mirrors too, and stretch bars.

The MMA/BJJ/MT school I attend has both padding and mirrors. So does the WC school, though the padding is only in a small area to work wall/cage scenarios. Though the WC school also does BJJ and MMA.

I'd say most MMA and boxing gyms I've been to have at least one mirror for shadowboxing. Sometimes a whole wall.


I could postulate that people build their enviornments around their intended activities.

Sure, but why would you do anything else?


To me, the mirrors represent a difference in the level of precision that is expected between TMA striking and mma striking.

Wayfaring is 100% correct about this statement. I have nothing to add.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Come on, fellas. It's not about padding or mirrors - because both have their uses. It's about what we saw there in the vid between two guys.

Or didn't see....

[HumbleWCGuy]

Wayfaring is 100% correct about this statement. I have nothing to add.

It really just boils down to the fact that you don't like me because I have shown you to be a clueless chump.

[Frost]

To me, the mirrors represent a difference in the level of precision that is expected between TMA striking and mma striking.

LMAO thanks for the laugh :)

[k gledhill]

what was mentioned...slapping hands too much.

I like to see more attacking /counter attacking

it looks like distances are too far to reach for contact


from the chi-sao it looks like the distances are at the wrist area as well, so leading to distance issues later...as we can see in the clip. move alittle closer to each other and try to strike and use arms to deflect more ,not the hands doing too much paksao [btw no attacking hand] while the other guy throws air punches.

do more attack/counter drills...less chi-sao. From no contact , enter to hit each other ,

think one hand must always be making a punch to the jaw of the other. it helps if you actually use a loose fist to make real contact to your partners jaw. Ánd you should be able to make an action to deliver force to the partner, not the air before him.

Distances, angles, striking/deflections. attacking intent to finish the guy asap.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LMAO thanks for the laugh :)

You know that I think that mma striking is sloppy so I have to be consistent with my belief.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxing gyms have mirrors too.

[Wayfaring]

Boxing gyms have mirrors too.

You know, that's weird. It seems that none of the MMA, MT and boxing gyms around here do have mirrors.

But in boxing gyms they also have rings where you can spar without fear of crashing into the mirrors.

And the thing I was noticing in that clip was that even the limited chi sau moving around free form there was a guy in the background to keep them off the mirrors. That doesn't look like the setup of a sparring school or one that is geared towards the primary activity of fighting.

That just made me think about all of the WCK schools I've been in and how there really is not space set aside for the primary activity of sparring hard. Space that you can move around freely without danger of breaking something. And most MMA schools I've been to have that. It's like a different intent. WCK schools seem to be set up to look at yourself in the mirror. Not spar. MMA schools seem to be set up to accomodate someone driving someone into a wall without damaging the structure. And ring timers for rounds.

That kind of thing IMO leads to the typical WCK delusion like the statement "mirrors represent the different level of precision in TMA over MMA". The problem with that is all those guys perfecting that precision in a mirror but never experiencing it under the pressure and intensity that a live MMA type environment provides. And that kind of precision goes out the window in the first 30 sec. in a live environment, or the first time they get hit hard or taken down.

So yes, I've seen some of the more circus carnival MMA shows where the standup and ground skills are very low level and all over the place. But there are also very technical MMA people in both standup and ground.

[wkmark]

You know, that's weird. It seems that none of the MMA, MT and boxing gyms around here do have mirrors.

But in boxing gyms they also have rings where you can spar without fear of crashing into the mirrors.

And the thing I was noticing in that clip was that even the limited chi sau moving around free form there was a guy in the background to keep them off the mirrors. That doesn't look like the setup of a sparring school or one that is geared towards the primary activity of fighting.

That just made me think about all of the WCK schools I've been in and how there really is not space set aside for the primary activity of sparring hard. Space that you can move around freely without danger of breaking something. And most MMA schools I've been to have that. It's like a different intent. WCK schools seem to be set up to look at yourself in the mirror. Not spar. MMA schools seem to be set up to accomodate someone driving someone into a wall without damaging the structure. And ring timers for rounds.

That kind of thing IMO leads to the typical WCK delusion like the statement "mirrors represent the different level of precision in TMA over MMA". The problem with that is all those guys perfecting that precision in a mirror but never experiencing it under the pressure and intensity that a live MMA type environment provides. And that kind of precision goes out the window in the first 30 sec. in a live environment, or the first time they get hit hard or taken down.

So yes, I've seen some of the more circus carnival MMA shows where the standup and ground skills are very low level and all over the place. But there are also very technical MMA people in both standup and ground.

Just FYI... padding that you see in the States or elsewhere will cost a fortune to set up here in HK. Space is VERY limited in HK. The rent here is at about the cost of NY apartments. So, no we don't have the luxury of adding nice paddings. As for sparring, we do enough sparring that If we hit the wall or the mirror so be it. It creates a more live atmosphere. In USA or other places, when someone gets hurt in a gym because of not enough padding for protection, etc... there is a HUGE liability insurance and lawsuit. Here in HK.. You hit the wall, you break the mirror you cut yourself, go get some stitches and i will see you next week.

[wkmark]

what was mentioned...slapping hands too much.

I like to see more attacking /counter attacking

it looks like distances are too far to reach for contact


from the chi-sao it looks like the distances are at the wrist area as well, so leading to distance issues later...as we can see in the clip. move alittle closer to each other and try to strike and use arms to deflect more ,not the hands doing too much paksao [btw no attacking hand] while the other guy throws air punches.

do more attack/counter drills...less chi-sao. From no contact , enter to hit each other ,

think one hand must always be making a punch to the jaw of the other. it helps if you actually use a loose fist to make real contact to your partners jaw. Ánd you should be able to make an action to deliver force to the partner, not the air before him.

Distances, angles, striking/deflections. attacking intent to finish the guy asap.

Thanks for the constructive comments. It is something that i am working on. We are always striving to improve ourselves each day.

[Wayfaring]

Just FYI... padding that you see in the States or elsewhere will cost a fortune to set up here in HK. Space is VERY limited in HK. The rent here is at about the cost of NY apartments. So, no we don't have the luxury of adding nice paddings. As for sparring, we do enough sparring that If we hit the wall or the mirror so be it. It creates a more live atmosphere. In USA or other places, when someone gets hurt in a gym because of not enough padding for protection, etc... there is a HUGE liability insurance and lawsuit. Here in HK.. You hit the wall, you break the mirror you cut yourself, go get some stitches and i will see you next week.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Mirrors of that size are expensive - more expensive than mats, and could shatter causing serious or lethal injury. With limited space that is all the more reason to pad walls.

So for example, how many times in the past year have you personally crashed into a mirror?

[YungChun]

what was mentioned...slapping hands too much.

I like to see more attacking /counter attacking

it looks like distances are too far to reach for contact


from the chi-sao it looks like the distances are at the wrist area as well, so leading to distance issues later...as we can see in the clip. move alittle closer to each other and try to strike and use arms to deflect more ,not the hands doing too much paksao [btw no attacking hand] while the other guy throws air punches.

do more attack/counter drills...less chi-sao. From no contact , enter to hit each other ,

think one hand must always be making a punch to the jaw of the other. it helps if you actually use a loose fist to make real contact to your partners jaw. Ánd you should be able to make an action to deliver force to the partner, not the air before him.

Distances, angles, striking/deflections. attacking intent to finish the guy asap.

Agree with most of this..

Would like to see more contact, or any real contact, power release, FANSAO. If you have trouble doing certain moves, then slow it down review what you did and work on doing what you WANT to be able to do.. The do that slower and under less resistance with some reps..

Remember that long range slapping and out of range strikes will not translate to real fighting very well if at all.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ all the clueless b.s. about mirrors, that they represent more precision, more realism, less expensive than putting some basic padding up, etc.

And you guys wonder how we know who the theoretical non-fighters are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, that's weird. It seems that none of the MMA, MT and boxing gyms around here do have mirrors.

But in boxing gyms they also have rings where you can spar without fear of crashing into the mirrors.

And the thing I was noticing in that clip was that even the limited chi sau moving around free form there was a guy in the background to keep them off the mirrors. That doesn't look like the setup of a sparring school or one that is geared towards the primary activity of fighting.

That just made me think about all of the WCK schools I've been in and how there really is not space set aside for the primary activity of sparring hard. Space that you can move around freely without danger of breaking something. And most MMA schools I've been to have that. It's like a different intent. WCK schools seem to be set up to look at yourself in the mirror. Not spar. MMA schools seem to be set up to accomodate someone driving someone into a wall without damaging the structure. And ring timers for rounds.

That kind of thing IMO leads to the typical WCK delusion like the statement "mirrors represent the different level of precision in TMA over MMA". The problem with that is all those guys perfecting that precision in a mirror but never experiencing it under the pressure and intensity that a live MMA type environment provides. And that kind of precision goes out the window in the first 30 sec. in a live environment, or the first time they get hit hard or taken down.

So yes, I've seen some of the more circus carnival MMA shows where the standup and ground skills are very low level and all over the place. But there are also very technical MMA people in both standup and ground.

Mirrors in Boxing and MT gyms tend to be in the shadow boxing area, for obvious reasons.
You typically use them to check your defense and your guard, nothing more.

[Knifefighter]

Here in HK.. You hit the wall, you break the mirror you cut yourself, go get some stitches and i will see you next week.

You are a liar.

How do I know that?

The drill wouldn't have stopped when the guys ran into the mirror, the one guy wouldn't have been racing behind them to keep them from crashing into the mirror, and there would already be cracks in the mirrors.

[couch]

wkmark: Great clip.

everyone else: D@mn arm-chair Sifus. This Chi Sau/Goh Sau clip is better than 99% of the stuff out there. Watch their other videos. Their footwork (Toi Ma/microangling) is impeccable.

[YungChun]

wkmark: Great clip.

everyone else: D@mn arm-chair Sifus. This Chi Sau/Goh Sau clip is better than 99% of the stuff out there. Watch their other videos. Their footwork (Toi Ma/microangling) is impeccable.

:confused:

Can't really agree.. "Footwork" that doesn't take you into range (and keep you there) and enable you to release power and continuity serves very little purpose..

What other videos?? They appear to have a single upload on YouTube.

[mun hung]

Wing Chun people can argue about anything......including mirrors. LOL

[couch]

:confused:

Can't really agree.. "Footwork" that doesn't take you into range (and keep you there) and enable you to release power and continuity serves very little purpose..

What other videos?? They appear to have a single upload on YouTube.

Same crew doing these vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX9jCMDnrMM

No footwork on the planet will keep in range if your opponent decides to back away or change the angle if it's big enough. A fight/spar/goh sau is chaotic to say the least.

That's why WC folk have a hard time with fighting/sparring other martial arts. They're told (and trained in the Chi Sau) to have this forward pressure and to constantly attack. Their Chi Sau opponent is doing the same - staying at the preferred WC range. It's easy to apply the WC stuff to other WC folk or other similar arts, Preying Mantis, etc because of the similar behaviour.

But what about a Muay Thai practitioner? I TKD expert who wants to back away all the time and pick you apart? WC as a system and as Chi Sau traditionally goes doesn't teach us an outside game at all. Need to look at the long range weapons contained within the system (Jab/Cross/Hook/Uppercut) in order to pick the 'patience-runner-type' fighter apart and get into a range in a blip before they back away again.

I think these clips are great. The angling footwork is good and both parties are attacking - not trying to stick to each others wrists like glue.

[Knifefighter]

That's why WC folk have a hard time with fighting/sparring other martial arts. They're told (and trained in the Chi Sau) to have this forward pressure and to constantly attack. Their Chi Sau opponent is doing the same - staying at the preferred WC range. It's easy to apply the WC stuff to other WC folk or other similar arts, Preying Mantis, etc because of the similar behaviour.

Not to mention the fact of what happens when you come across someone who is better at those same tactics and you have no options to shut them down because you are a one trick pony.

And of course there is the also significant problem of how easy a person who is always attacking and applying forward pressure is taken down.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You can't judge fighting by chi sao. And making chi sao into a competition proves nothing. So for me, these vids prove nothing. Are the following issues addressed?

How would either man do against long range jabs, stiff leads, crosses, overhands - and kicks to the body or legs?
Shorter range hooks and uppercuts?
Neck ties followed by knees at close quarters? Elbow strikes from close quarters?
Wrestling/grappling clinching meant to set up shots and takedowns?
Longer range leads, crosses, and overhands that set up shoots to the legs?

NONE OF THESE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED IN THESE CLIPS.

But it's just chi sao you might say - and I respond with: "So what is this going to teach you against all that I mentioned earlier?

Answer: Not really that much.

Because chi sao just deals with a limited amount of tools that are used only in a certain range.

NOW DON'T GET ME WRONG: I believe in chi sao training as you can gain certain skills, work with certain principles, develop certain attributes and techniques from it, but for every hour of chi sao you do - you better be doing at least 3 hours of all out sparring - otherwise you're really kidding yourself.

And the way these guys came at each other when not in the close chi sao range - forget it. They'd be eating big time punches, kicks, and shots to the legs from other types of fighters.

[mun hung]

Full agreement with Victor!

Chi Sau only covers one range. You gotta get there first. Does long bridge not exist? Everything is chi sau fighting? It's no wonder why so many people get their clocks cleaned. People get excercises and forms mixed up with real fighting.

[SAAMAG]

You are a liar.

How do I know that?

The drill wouldn't have stopped when the guys ran into the mirror, the one guy wouldn't have been racing behind them to keep them from crashing into the mirror, and there would already be cracks in the mirrors.

Act like an @sshole much? Oh wait...what am I saying?! I forgot who I was talking to.

1) Drills stop at padded walls too, even in MMA gyms.
2) Trying to keep mirrors from breaking is nothing short of well...smart.
3) Mirrors can be fixed.

The guy was just saying that if they don't have pads and one of the mirrors breaks from contact, then so be it. They're not sue-happy like Americans are. That was the point.

[Knifefighter]

Act like an @sshole much? Oh wait...what am I saying?! I forgot who I was talking to.

1) Drills stop at padded walls too, even in MMA gyms.
2) Trying to keep mirrors from breaking is nothing short of well...smart.
3) Mirrors can be fixed.

The guy was just saying that if they don't have pads and one of the mirrors breaks from contact, then so be it. They're not sue-happy like Americans are. That was the point.

No, what he was saying was that they regularly spar full contact and run into the mirrors... and that breaking them and getting stitches was no big deal.

No, you don't stop at padded walls in MMA training. That is part of what the training is about... training off the wall.

[Wayfaring]

1) Drills stop at padded walls too, even in MMA gyms.

No, no they don't.


2) Trying to keep mirrors from breaking is nothing short of well...smart.

Having mirrors up where you have dedicated full contact sparring is nothing short of well....stupid. Which is kind of why I commented on it as standard practice. It kind of indicates that full contact sparring seldom to never occurs.


3) Mirrors can be fixed.

Any piece of glass over 6' x 6' has a shear force that can open people up from head to toe. That's the main concern, not the stupid piece of glass, which while it can be fixed, is relatively expensive to do so.


The guy was just saying that if they don't have pads and one of the mirrors breaks from contact, then so be it. They're not sue-happy like Americans are. That was the point.
My read on that was he was trying to act like they do a lot of full contact sparring when they actually don't.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's my take on Wayfaring's point:

"Many, many wing chun schools seldom do any real serious contact sparring."

***AND I BELIEVE HE'S CORRECT.
.............................

Here's my take on Vankuen's point:

"Mirrors are important to training."

***AND THIS IS ALSO TRUE - although nowhere as important as very frequent all-out sparring.
............................

Here's my take on Knifefighter's point:

"Wing Chun sucks." :rolleyes: :eek: :cool:

"Oh, and eh...(Knifefighter continues)....padding is good because once you run into the wall you can keep going, thereby simulating a real world condition."

***Yeah, Dale, thanks for sharing that.


:D

[SAAMAG]

No, what he was saying was that they regularly spar full contact and run into the mirrors... and that breaking them and getting stitches was no big deal.

No, you don't stop at padded walls in MMA training. That is part of what the training is about... training off the wall.

Yes...you do. Fighting in an MMA gym is not fighting in the ring. If you're sparring, sure you will work where you're at. I said DRILLS stop at walls (and for the record you used the term drills too). So if you're rolling and working on something that doesn't entail a wall and can't because the wall is there, you move. That's what normal people do.

I think is point was clear, but apparently you and I take it differently. I didn't take it as they're breaking mirrors constantly, but rather that if it happens it won't be a big deal.


No, no they don't.

Having mirrors up where you have dedicated full contact sparring is nothing short of well....stupid. Which is kind of why I commented on it as standard practice. It kind of indicates that full contact sparring seldom to never occurs.

Any piece of glass over 6' x 6' has a shear force that can open people up from head to toe. That's the main concern, not the stupid piece of glass, which while it can be fixed, is relatively expensive to do so.

My read on that was he was trying to act like they do a lot of full contact sparring when they actually don't.

Mirrors are in mma gyms as well...guess aaaaallll those owners are stupid too? We have them on one side of the gym and on the other side we have wall padding. You deal with what you have. Not every gym has the luxury of making the sparring area different than any other area. Not to mention that no one has EVER broken one of the mirrors. Then again when rolling we're not flying towards the wall at full blast either, and standup is done in a professional manner...very seldom are people out of control where they're flying all over the place.

And like Dale, my read was different. I took it for what it probably meant.

[Wayfaring]

Mirrors are in mma gyms as well...guess aaaaallll those owners are stupid too? We have them on one side of the gym and on the other side we have wall padding. You deal with what you have. Not every gym has the luxury of making the sparring area different than any other area. Not to mention that no one has EVER broken one of the mirrors. Then again when rolling we're not flying towards the wall at full blast either, and standup is done in a professional manner...very seldom are people out of control where they're flying all over the place.

And like Dale, my read was different. I took it for what it probably meant.

Apparantly in these places you are referring to that are MMA gyms with dedicated areas for sparring, the mirrors are in a DIFFERENT place than the dedicated sparring areas. Right? That was what I was saying.

For smaller MMA gyms like I see who don't have the luxury of a different sparring area, if they have to choose between mirrors and padding, they choose padding.

A cage, or padded walls, allows you the freedom to go harder and use a backstop without worrying whether or not you will kill yourself, cut yourself, or cost yourself $350 in broken glas. Sure when there are tons of people working drills or light sparring it's more contained. But the skills to be able to deal with backstops are part of a realistic sparring environment, not just in MMA, but also in a realistic situation. Learning to pin someone against a backstop and take them down is a necessary skill. So is using a backstop to your advantage to escape a bottom position. You learn neither of those skills against mirrors.

[Matrix]

wkmark: Great clip.

everyone else: D@mn arm-chair Sifus. This Chi Sau/Goh Sau clip is better than 99% of the stuff out there. Watch their other videos. Their footwork (Toi Ma/microangling) is impeccable.Kenton,
Keep in mind that the orginal poster asked for constructive comments on the video. You can dispute what is "constructive" or not, but the video was posted with the intent of receiving comments. To call "everyone else" who doesn't agree with your point of view "D@mn arm-chair Sifus" is a bit of an over reaction, don't you think?

I would tend to agree with most of the points made by Kevin and Jim, but that's just me.

Peace,
Bill

[SAAMAG]

Apparantly in these places you are referring to that are MMA gyms with dedicated areas for sparring, the mirrors are in a DIFFERENT place than the dedicated sparring areas. Right? That was what I was saying.

For smaller MMA gyms like I see who don't have the luxury of a different sparring area, if they have to choose between mirrors and padding, they choose padding.

A cage, or padded walls, allows you the freedom to go harder and use a backstop without worrying whether or not you will kill yourself, cut yourself, or cost yourself $350 in broken glas. Sure when there are tons of people working drills or light sparring it's more contained. But the skills to be able to deal with backstops are part of a realistic sparring environment, not just in MMA, but also in a realistic situation. Learning to pin someone against a backstop and take them down is a necessary skill. So is using a backstop to your advantage to escape a bottom position. You learn neither of those skills against mirrors.

I agree with what you're saying completely, it (a wall) is a very real thing to contend with. Environment plays a significant role in tactics.

But to straight up call someone a liar when you simply misinterpreted the message is an ******* thing to do. No wonder people get a bad taste when they come to this forum. They get berated by someone who doesn't practice wing chun and only serves up negativity. Regardless of whether his repetitive message is legit, his method is uncalled for.

the guy who posted the vid never said they go around breaking glass...you guys just read between the lines to take it that way, at least I got a completely different message.

[couch]

Kenton,
Keep in mind that the orginal poster asked for constructive comments on the video. You can dispute what is "constructive" or not, but the video was posted with the intent of receiving comments. To call "everyone else" who doesn't agree with your point of view "D@mn arm-chair Sifus" is a bit of an over reaction, don't you think?

I would tend to agree with most of the points made by Kevin and Jim, but that's just me.

Peace,
Bill

I suppose you're right to a degree, Bill. There's constructive criticism and then there's being a jerk - that's what my comment was on. Should have been more specific.

Nothing to worry about I suppose because this thread has now turned into a wall-pad vs. mirror debate. LOL :)

[wkmark]

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Mirrors of that size are expensive - more expensive than mats, and could shatter causing serious or lethal injury. With limited space that is all the more reason to pad walls.

So for example, how many times in the past year have you personally crashed into a mirror?

Personally in the past year, i have crashed into the mirror enough times to know that if i backed up to the wall, i better start moving in another angle than to stand there and take a beating.

Mirrors are easier to set up and to get HERE in HK.... paddings are harder to come by. Sure we would LOVE to have full padding like the ones in the States and other gyms, please feel free to donate. =)

[wkmark]

Agree with most of this..

Would like to see more contact, or any real contact, power release, FANSAO. If you have trouble doing certain moves, then slow it down review what you did and work on doing what you WANT to be able to do.. The do that slower and under less resistance with some reps..

Remember that long range slapping and out of range strikes will not translate to real fighting very well if at all.

Thanks you for your comments and views. What we are doing in this is controlled "Gwoh Sau" trying to move in to center line...

I do understand the long range issues.. it is something that we are working on using boxing gloves, MMA gloves as well as full face mask.

[wkmark]

wkmark: Great clip.

everyone else: D@mn arm-chair Sifus. This Chi Sau/Goh Sau clip is better than 99% of the stuff out there. Watch their other videos. Their footwork (Toi Ma/microangling) is impeccable.

Thank you.

[wkmark]

Wing Chun people can argue about anything......including mirrors. LOL

Yes, I was surprised by the mirror VS padding comments as well.

[wkmark]

Same crew doing these vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX9jCMDnrMM

No footwork on the planet will keep in range if your opponent decides to back away or change the angle if it's big enough. A fight/spar/goh sau is chaotic to say the least.

That's why WC folk have a hard time with fighting/sparring other martial arts. They're told (and trained in the Chi Sau) to have this forward pressure and to constantly attack. Their Chi Sau opponent is doing the same - staying at the preferred WC range. It's easy to apply the WC stuff to other WC folk or other similar arts, Preying Mantis, etc because of the similar behaviour.

But what about a Muay Thai practitioner? I TKD expert who wants to back away all the time and pick you apart? WC as a system and as Chi Sau traditionally goes doesn't teach us an outside game at all. Need to look at the long range weapons contained within the system (Jab/Cross/Hook/Uppercut) in order to pick the 'patience-runner-type' fighter apart and get into a range in a blip before they back away again.

I think these clips are great. The angling footwork is good and both parties are attacking - not trying to stick to each others wrists like glue.

Thank you for your comments and views. Yes developing Long range weaspons and patience -runner type fighter is something that we are also working on.

[Matrix]

Nothing to worry about I suppose because this thread has now turned into a wall-pad vs. mirror debate. LOL :)I leave that debate to the experts. Thanks. ;)

[wkmark]

You can't judge fighting by chi sao. And making chi sao into a competition proves nothing. So for me, these vids prove nothing. Are the following issues addressed?

How would either man do against long range jabs, stiff leads, crosses, overhands - and kicks to the body or legs?
Shorter range hooks and uppercuts?
Neck ties followed by knees at close quarters? Elbow strikes from close quarters?
Wrestling/grappling clinching meant to set up shots and takedowns?
Longer range leads, crosses, and overhands that set up shoots to the legs?

NONE OF THESE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED IN THESE CLIPS.

But it's just chi sao you might say - and I respond with: "So what is this going to teach you against all that I mentioned earlier?

Answer: Not really that much.

Because chi sao just deals with a limited amount of tools that are used only in a certain range.

NOW DON'T GET ME WRONG: I believe in chi sao training as you can gain certain skills, work with certain principles, develop certain attributes and techniques from it, but for every hour of chi sao you do - you better be doing at least 3 hours of all out sparring - otherwise you're really kidding yourself.

And the way these guys came at each other when not in the close chi sao range - forget it. They'd be eating big time punches, kicks, and shots to the legs from other types of fighters.

Perhaps I was not clear in my video description. This was one of our exercise that we do to work on balance, timing, distance. Nowhere does it mention that this resembles real fighting.

We Do spar so rest assured, we are testing to see what works and what doesn't.

[wkmark]

Act like an @sshole much? Oh wait...what am I saying?! I forgot who I was talking to.

1) Drills stop at padded walls too, even in MMA gyms.
2) Trying to keep mirrors from breaking is nothing short of well...smart.
3) Mirrors can be fixed.

The guy was just saying that if they don't have pads and one of the mirrors breaks from contact, then so be it. They're not sue-happy like Americans are. That was the point.

Thank you. Point 2 & 3 and the rest of the comments was what i was referring to in regards to the padded walls vs Mirrors.

[anerlich]

For what it was, it looked OK to me. I think it's impossible to draw any conclusions of any kind from this.

The criticism about mirrors and pads is pretty pointless. You do the best you can with what you have. You probably don't need padding unless you are practicing takedowns and groundfighting regularly. I only posted about that in your defense, really.


It really just boils down to the fact that you don't like me because I have shown you to be a clueless chump.

That only happened in your dreams. If I dislike you, it's because you're unlikeable.

[wkmark]

I agree with what you're saying completely, it (a wall) is a very real thing to contend with. Environment plays a significant role in tactics.

But to straight up call someone a liar when you simply misinterpreted the message is an ******* thing to do. No wonder people get a bad taste when they come to this forum. They get berated by someone who doesn't practice wing chun and only serves up negativity. Regardless of whether his repetitive message is legit, his method is uncalled for.

the guy who posted the vid never said they go around breaking glass...you guys just read between the lines to take it that way, at least I got a completely different message.

Again, Thank You.

I arrive at this forum because it seems to be a bit more active than some of the other forums. To be called a liar and what nots.. honestly it doesn't bother me much. I am not in third grade. You have your views and I respect that. Again as for mirror VS padded walls, um..that wasn't the point for my video at all. We train the same way no matter If there was pads or mirrors.

As for full out sparring with padded walls and rings.. etc... sure there are plenty of places that have that and it serves that purpose for MMA or boxing or any grappling arts. For local Kung Fu places here in HK, we have nice places and we have some really really old buildings that may just have wooden/ concrete walls. But to walk into one of those and challenge them by saying since you don't have padded walls then you are not full sparring is just asking for yourself to get grind up and thrown out the window. There are some places in HK that looks dodgy as heck but no way would I think those people who train there cannot fight for crap.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The first thing you really need to do is drop the Chi Sao thing and get on with sparing. You don't have to go for brains, just light contact will work. You need to get completely away from this Chi Sao play thing or you will never be able to use it properly. I can garantee you that if you get into a confrontation in a parking lot somewhere the guy is not going to Chi Sao you. He is going to jump on you and beat the hell out of you. Learn to fight.

[wkmark]

The first thing you really need to do is drop the Chi Sao thing and get on with sparing. You don't have to go for brains, just light contact will work. You need to get completely away from this Chi Sao play thing or you will never be able to use it properly. I can garantee you that if you get into a confrontation in a parking lot somewhere the guy is not going to Chi Sao you. He is going to jump on you and beat the hell out of you. Learn to fight.

Again, this "Gwoh Sau" thing was only one of our exercises that we do. It is NOT saying that If I do this well I can fight well. It's an exercise to work on timing, balance, etc. Light contact sparring and Full contact sparring is essential as well. I didn't put up a video does not mean that we don't do contact sparring.

As for confrontation, yes in a confrontation you are not trying to Chi Sao with the other person. You are trying to either control the person or Hit the person. Anyone who learns Wing Chun/ Ving Tsun and thinks that in a fight all they have to do it Chi Sao is sure going to get a rude awakening.

[YungChun]

Thanks you for your comments and views. What we are doing in this is controlled "Gwoh Sau" trying to move in to center line...

I do understand the long range issues.. it is something that we are working on using boxing gloves, MMA gloves as well as full face mask.

That sounds good but I'd suggest using the smallest gloves possible, such as NHB type gloves... The larger the gloves the more dramatically will it change the dynamics of what you're doing... (ability to use VT hands/tools--space needed for taking the line, etc)...

As a compromise some folks have tried using open hands to face (you can still use a mouthpiece, and close or open strikes to the body)...

Either way the more contact the better.

IMO "torksao"? should be avoided as well, in favor of forearm or wrist contact (correct use of fook), as the use of the palm to mush and control the opponent isn't helpful to either partner..

And of course I would try to emphasize fansao as much as possible..(continuity and maintaining control of the line through to finish)

[YungChun]

No footwork on the planet will keep in range if your opponent decides to back away or change the angle if it's big enough.


If you have the range footwork can certainly keep you there..



That's why WC folk have a hard time with fighting/sparring other martial arts. They're told (and trained in the Chi Sau) to have this forward pressure and to constantly attack.

ChiSao isn't really about constantly attacking it's a fight for position...and the line--a drill..



Their Chi Sau opponent is doing the same - staying at the preferred WC range. It's easy to apply the WC stuff to other WC folk or other similar arts, Preying Mantis, etc because of the similar behaviour.

It's as easy or as hard as your opponent makes it.



But what about a Muay Thai practitioner? I TKD expert who wants to back away all the time and pick you apart? WC as a system and as Chi Sau traditionally goes doesn't teach us an outside game at all.

VT no outside game? :eek:

Whole lot of leg moves for no outside game..

VT's most distant weapon..a side kick..
VT's nearest weapon..a shoulder butt..

Lot's in between..

In a duel or match setting you have to set them up... You have to treat the outside as a key part of the game... Your greatest weapon on the outside is your brain.. Simply chasing anyone around will only set up his game if he has one....... (spend some time looking at the outside game..and the options available)

Keep in mind that arts like Kyokushin which have plenty of good fighters, don't have many or any pre-packaged bridge moves, contact drills, concepts/tactics, etc, and simply fight using whatever tools, moves they can..

VT has more (stuff) but then folks complain about things that are missing....... In reality there is more in VT than in most (arts) to get in there and do the (sparring) work..

[Ultimatewingchun]

wkmark:

Let me take it a bit further than what I said on my earlier post:

Gear up fully and start out light-to-medium contact...on the way to much heavier contact. And yes, the smaller the gloves the better.

Make sure you're also using kicks to the body and legs, elbow and knee strikes, etc. And lots of work going from long range to short range, backing out when necessary, etc.

And make it your business to learn and/or get others who've already learned moves from other styles - and work against those things constantly. How often will you run up against another wing chun fighter in a possible real encounter?

Chi sao/gor sao training is fine, but recognize it for what it is - and always be mindful of what it isn't.

But the big thing is this: spontaneous medium-to-heavy contact sparring should become the SUN in your world, and everything else (chi sao, forms, drills, wooden dummy) is a planet revolving around (and subservient to) that SUN.

[wkmark]

wkmark:

Let me take it a bit further than what I said on my earlier post:

Gear up fully and start out light-to-medium contact...on the way to much heavier contact. And yes, the smaller the gloves the better.

Make sure you're also using kicks to the body and legs, elbow and knee strikes, etc. And lots of work going from long range to short range, backing out when necessary, etc.

And make it your business to learn and/or get others who've already learned moves from other styles - and work against those things constantly. How often will you run up against another wing chun fighter in a possible real encounter?

Chi sao/gor sao training is fine, but recognize it for what it is - and always be mindful of what it isn't.

But the big thing is this: spontaneous medium-to-heavy contact sparring should become the SUN in your world, and everything else (chi sao, forms, drills, wooden dummy) is a planet revolving around (and subservient to) that SUN.

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. What you have mentioned is indeed the road we are moving towards as well. :)

[shawchemical]

LOL @ all the clueless b.s. about mirrors, that they represent more precision, more realism, less expensive than putting some basic padding up, etc.

And you guys wonder how we know who the theoretical non-fighters are.

Yep, everyone knows you're full of ****.

[shawchemical]

No, no they don't.

Having mirrors up where you have dedicated full contact sparring is nothing short of well....stupid. Which is kind of why I commented on it as standard practice. It kind of indicates that full contact sparring seldom to never occurs.

Any piece of glass over 6' x 6' has a shear force that can open people up from head to toe. That's the main concern, not the stupid piece of glass, which while it can be fixed, is relatively expensive to do so.

My read on that was he was trying to act like they do a lot of full contact sparring when they actually don't.

Do you actually understand what shear force is??

It doesn't sound like it. Are you claiming that glass is shear thinning or shear thickening??

[MOSHE]

I would like to share with you all a recent video clip of our practice. Yes, i know there are some minor issues here and there; good thing for videos so i that i can look back and examine it myself. Feel free to make constructive comments or if you have a question, i will try to answer it as best as I could.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhTphaxJuUg

thats not shi sao !!!

[punchdrunk]

welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing a clip of your training.
You asked for criticism and your getting it by the truck load, please don't let it scare you off... If I may offer an idea ... not an insult... I'd say loosen up and relax in your training, don't be so text book with pak sao or lap sao or whatever. When you move or control your partners bridge you should control their stance as well. Then strikes are more natural and not straight arms kept full of tension. Again not a criticism, just ideas I play with in my training. Good control of the centerline is shown in the chi sao clip, use that to control your partners balance as well.
Again welcome, we all look forward to your contributions.

[Knifefighter]

I didn't put up a video does not mean that we don't do contact sparring.

More than likely, that's exactly what it means. People who put up vids of demos, but no sparring, generally don't spar.

[wkmark]

welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing a clip of your training.
You asked for criticism and your getting it by the truck load, please don't let it scare you off... If I may offer an idea ... not an insult... I'd say loosen up and relax in your training, don't be so text book with pak sao or lap sao or whatever. When you move or control your partners bridge you should control their stance as well. Then strikes are more natural and not straight arms kept full of tension. Again not a criticism, just ideas I play with in my training. Good control of the centerline is shown in the chi sao clip, use that to control your partners balance as well.
Again welcome, we all look forward to your contributions.

No worries, I put up a clip and i expect more criticism than anything, which is fine. I just want to get a sense of how everyone OUTSIDE of HK are viewing Ving Tsun. Your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank You.