Wing Chun Forum Poll:

[Ultimatewingchun]

For those of you who either post or lurk here, I have some questions concerning wing chun and boxing. Would like to know what you think about a few things. Not talking about wrestling/grappling in the clinch or on the ground at the moment. Just talking about standup striking/fighting skills.

Please vote for either A,B,C,D,E.

A) Wing Chun people could enhance their standup striking/fighting skills by adding some boxing to their game.

B) Wing Chun is fine all by itself, and therefore standup striking/fighting skills would not be improved by adding some boxing.

C) Not only is Wing Chun fine all by itself, but adding some boxing into the mix would actually weaken the overall standup striking/fighting skills.

D) Most actual Wing Chun standup striking/fighting already looks like some form of sloppy boxing, regardless of how it's labeled, and could probably improve with better boxing skills added to it.

E) Wing Chun people would probably be better off if they gave up wing chun altogether and learned boxing instead.

[shawchemical]

C.

there is only one answer to this question.

[LSWCTN1]

For those of you who either post or lurk here, I have some questions concerning wing chun and boxing. Would like to know what you think about a few things. Not talking about wrestling/grappling in the clinch or on the ground at the moment. Just talking about standup striking/fighting skills.

Please vote for either A,B,C,D,E.

A) Wing Chun people could enhance their standup striking/fighting skills by adding some boxing to their game.

B) Wing Chun is fine all by itself, and therefore standup striking/fighting skills would not be improved by adding some boxing.

C) Not only is Wing Chun fine all by itself, but adding some boxing into the mix would actually weaken the overall standup striking/fighting skills.

D) Most actual Wing Chun standup striking/fighting already looks like some form of sloppy boxing, regardless of how it's labeled, and could probably improve with better boxing skills added to it.

E) Wing Chun people would probably be better off if they gave up wing chun altogether and learned boxing instead.


C.

there is only one answer to this question.

1. you get the right instructor and its B or even C, because you can probably really only ever master one art in a lifetime. however, 90% if not more, of the people teaching wing chun are not very good instructors. we all know this. on a side note i bought a wing chun for mma dvd by a guy called Dave Durch? pmsl!

2. because of point 1., the truth is often that point E is the most honest reflection.

3. there should be a point F. this should detail how people who have previously done boxing would do much better than most in wing chun based on their work ethic and love for sparring. this can only happen in a pure wing chun sense once the boxing 'habits'have been eradicated

[LoneTiger108]

B) :D

Only the individual can improve oneself using their Wing Chun understanding. IMHO if you HAVE to step outside of your art to explain/justify/correct anyhting then you have not spent enough time with your Sifu or with yourself.

[HumbleWCGuy]

A) Wing Chun people could enhance their standup striking/fighting skills by adding some boxing to their game.


On some level it isn't that boxing is necessarily the secret ingredient, but I think that people should have more than just one style under their belt. No one system or instructor will fully round out an individuals fighting.

I am not recommending a wholesale import of boxing into Wing Chun. A lot of good WC instructors probably already incooperate elements of boxing in their training. I also recognize that adding boxing can cause problems because certain elements of boxing are incompatible within a mma environment that Wing Chun should credibly operate in.

[Niersun]

Depends what type of Wing Chun your doing for starters.

My opinion is that Kick boxing training enhances the wing chun practitioner to become more tough and gives him more weapons. Hitting from different angles helps.

However, its actually reversed. Wing Chun techniques helps boxers and kickboxers.

I see boxers use low bong saos all the time as well as bil sao and they dont even train wing chun.

TWC has footwork, but its hardly ever emphasised in training as much as boxers emphasise it, thats why in some fights, people find it hard to even do a pak sao to pin the arm and the fighter has already moved and fighting from another angle.

Practicing crosses and hooks will add more to your arsenal, so i choose (a), but really if the opportunity arises, finger jab to the eye.

[goju]

i would choose A

doesnt have to nesscarily be boxing

karate, tkd , mt or anything of the sort will suffice as well

[Sihing73]

A) Wing Chun people could enhance their standup striking/fighting skills by adding some boxing to their game.

B) Wing Chun is fine all by itself, and therefore standup striking/fighting skills would not be improved by adding some boxing.

C) Not only is Wing Chun fine all by itself, but adding some boxing into the mix would actually weaken the overall standup striking/fighting skills.

D) Most actual Wing Chun standup striking/fighting already looks like some form of sloppy boxing, regardless of how it's labeled, and could probably improve with better boxing skills added to it.

E) Wing Chun people would probably be better off if they gave up wing chun altogether and learned boxing instead.

[mun hung]

If you need to add boxing to Wing Chun, it's because you don't have a good applicable understanding of it.

Victor, what is your answer?

I see videos of you sparring, and then there's a poll up about boxing. This is starting to sound like JKD. LOL

I'm not trying to make fun - just trying to figure out where you're going with this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not sure if you need to ADD boxing as much as be exposed to it.
But, there is no doubt that boxing is an effective form of fighting and I am sure there are a few things that ANY MA can take from boxing to make their game better.

[mun hung]

Quote: 1. you get the right instructor and its B or even C, because you can probably really only ever master one art in a lifetime. however, 90% if not more, of the people teaching wing chun are not very good instructors. we all know this. on a side note i bought a wing chun for mma dvd by a guy called Dave Durch? pmsl!

2. because of point 1., the truth is often that point E is the most honest reflection.

3. there should be a point F. this should detail how people who have previously done boxing would do much better than most in wing chun based on their work ethic and love for sparring. this can only happen in a pure wing chun sense once the boxing 'habits'have been eradicated.

Very true.

Boxers have great work ethics while most Wing Chun people spend time on discussion boards. :D

Most boxers hit and get hit on a regular - so they have more practical experience. Most Wing Chun people theorize and discuss concepts all day long while sitting around eating Cheese Doodles. Or even worse - they train in their own comfort zones and not learn anything at all.

Go boxing!!!

[kung fu fighter]

I would have to say both B and C, although I feel training with boxers/MMA fighters can definately improve one's fighting attributes such as sense of distance and timing which is necessary to be able to apply any techniques in a fight regardless of style. I don't feel the need to incoperate any techniques from boxing or MMA to improve my wing chun, in fact i think it can dilute or weaken the the origional technology of style especially if one doesn't have a complete understanding of wing chun to begin with and then start making changes.

[t_niehoff]

How many of you have gone and spent any significant time at a decent boxing gym sparring with some good boxers? (NOT boxing your students or someone who has "boxed").

If you haven't done that, you don't know what you're talking about.

The other thing is that instead of being concerned with "WCK people", the question should be "what do YOU need to do?"

[Vajramusti]

How many of you have gone and spent any significant time at a decent boxing gym sparring with some good boxers? (NOT boxing your students or someone who has "boxed").

If you haven't done that, you don't know what you're talking about.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On this specific issue, I agree with the above snip..

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

A) Wing Chun people could enhance their standup striking/fighting skills by adding some boxing to their game.

[Ultimatewingchun]

140 views of this thread - and only 6 votes.

Verrrry interesting....:confused: :cool:

[Knifefighter]

There is only one answer.

D

[YungChun]

Polls are often vague..

What does adding boxing mean?

Does it mean that you cross train boxing?

Does it mean you add in some boxing drills at the VT school?

Does it mean sparring in boxing terms?

What does all by itself mean? No cross training in anything?

In general I think the problems with VT lie more in how it's trained not what it's missing..(ie Boxing).. If you add Boxing and train that like most train VT then guess what you get? (D)

[SAAMAG]

I believe that boxing can be a boon to ANY fighting art. Not that I think its the end all...because using some boxing things like rolling the cross wouldn't be advisable say in a muay thai match (good way to get round kicked in the face).

But it can do no harm really unless you cannot differentiate from one styles general rules to another without overlap, e.g. punching without shoulders in wing chun versus using the shoulder in boxing.

I also agree with what was said before that it typically the reverse; that wing chun serves as a nice seasoning for other dishes. (er...wing chun serves as a good integration into other arts like boxing or some other style).

[mun hung]

quote:
e.g. punching without shoulders in wing chun versus using the shoulder in boxing.

Please explain this.

Thanks.

[LoneTiger108]

140 views of this thread - and only 6 votes.

Verrrry interesting....:confused: :cool:

I didn't even see the poll options at work, but now I am counted! :)

B) Wing Chun is fine all by itself, and therefore standup striking/fighting skills would not be improved by adding some boxing.

Jeez! Even a simple poll looks like it will be de-railed :o

[SAAMAG]

quote:
e.g. punching without shoulders in wing chun versus using the shoulder in boxing.

Please explain this.

Thanks.

What do you not understand?

In short...you roll the shoulders forward (follow through) on your punches in boxing, and in wing chun you keep them relaxed and in line with the body i.e. you don't "follow through" with the shoulders in [most] wing chun.

Here's something from Jin if you want more illustration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdJzLw6mQyQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0goQdh8Aw0&feature=related

And for good measure...boxing punches with shoulder follow through:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnnsfQdUZ9w
Even Bruce Lee's doing it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BluUhcEvPtI

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Unfortunately there is a limit to how long the descriptions can be so I did the best I could given the circumstances and trying to stay true to Victors original points.

As for me, I believe that every art needs to grow and that traditional martial artists did engage in cross training based on their needs and most likely opponents.

However, having said that, the danger, to me, is that people try to add something without having the foundation on which to build and they end up with nothing more than a hodgepdoge.

I have Wing Chun as my main and foundation art, however I also trained Pekiti Tirsia and am currently also training American Kuntao Silat. While Boxing may be of benefit, it may not be what each person needs or what will fit into their personal system.

I personally feel that the hand techniques in Wing Chun are more than adequate for the system and that an understanding of boxing could be of benefit but that boxing does not need to be included to make Wing Chun effective.

[goju]

Not sure if you need to ADD boxing as much as be exposed to it.
But, there is no doubt that boxing is an effective form of fighting and I am sure there are a few things that ANY MA can take from boxing to make their game better.


yep great post:D

[Lucas]

now i voted that wing chun is fine all by itself. thats not to say however that i dont think ANY martial artist can improve their game by cross training, but just to say that you can learn JUST wing chun and still get along fine. but i believe this with any martial art.

[Wayfaring]

Can't choose between A and B. There's nothing wrong with some good boxing mechanics to mix things up. And I agree exposure to work against a good boxer's footwork and combinations is a great way to test your WCK.

But do you NEED to add it? There are plenty of people who seem to do OK w/o boxing in the MMA world.

[anerlich]

If you add boxing to WC, is it still WC? That's my problem with answering this.

Doing some boxing or kickboxing ain't going to hurt your overall game and will probably help.

[mun hung]

quote:
If you add boxing to WC, is it still WC? That's my problem with answering this.

No, it becomes JKD. :D

[mun hung]

QUOTE Vankuen;

What do you not understand?

In short...you roll the shoulders forward (follow through) on your punches in boxing, and in wing chun you keep them relaxed and in line with the body i.e. you don't "follow through" with the shoulders in [most] wing chun.


Well, I understand what you mean now, and I gotta say that I don't punch anything like the Wing Chun guy in the vid. He is hammering downwards in his punching and his shoulder doesn't move. I think I have more in common with the boxer and Bruces' punching with the exception of the outward elbows.

I punch using the elbow to drive the punch towards the target. I also extend my shoulder in the same direction of the punch. I'd like to think that other people punch the same way I do.

Thanks for answering back.

- P

[SAAMAG]

QUOTE Vankuen;

What do you not understand?

In short...you roll the shoulders forward (follow through) on your punches in boxing, and in wing chun you keep them relaxed and in line with the body i.e. you don't "follow through" with the shoulders in [most] wing chun.


Well, I understand what you mean now, and I gotta say that I don't punch anything like the Wing Chun guy in the vid. He is hammering downwards in his punching and his shoulder doesn't move. I think I have more in common with the boxer and Bruces' punching with the exception of the outward elbows.

I punch using the elbow to drive the punch towards the target. I also extend my shoulder in the same direction of the punch. I'd like to think that other people punch the same way I do.

Thanks for answering back.

- P

No worries man. I don't punch like China Boxer does either because of precisely what you said, and agree with the latter method as being more natural and effective. The shoulder is one of the links and shouldn't be confined...at the same time I understand the need to relax them so that your shoulders don't get overworked from the strain that wing chun puts on them.

[SavvySavage]

I vote for choice A.

But doesn't have to boxing. First you develop a base in a style...then you start getting bored...or maybe you don't think you're thy good. So you decide to attend a seminar or a class in another school. This school teaches something totally different from your wing chun. You practice those moves for a while and you notice(pay attention because here comes the most important part) that you feel ALIVE. You feel passionate about your martial art again. When you work out with your old classmates you're moving slightly differently and they comment, "Hey, SavvySavage, something is weird about what you're doing. How come I can't hit you the same way as usual?". Trying something new makes you motivated. You then combine the new with the old Like Optimus Prime combining with Megatron to form Supertron. I'm not a transformers geek but the analagy works. This same situation can also apply to visiting another wing chun school.

The negative about this situation is WHEN the person comes back and starts spouting the new philosophy he learned at the other school like everything he learned prior was BS. That's wrong and shortsighted.

I can't believe I'm about to say this. Seven years ago if I saw a comment like the one I'm about to type I'd go nuts and type back an angry reply to rebuke it. This is so funny. Here it goes: If pure wing chun is so good than how come none of the pure wing chunners ever put up videos showing this so called pure wing chun during SPARRING?!? It NEVER happens. The pure wing chunners are talking up a good game but it's all intellectual bs. I sound like Ray Pina! The people I'm talking about are happy to put up vids of static drills that only work when the attacker is cooperative. In that case I could "show" that monkey boxing works.

I'm shocked that I just said the above but this is where my training has brought me. Show a "pure wing chun" sparring vid please and shut us all up.

I really likes the vids of Victor. It showed how the human body moves when under pressure. I say it's impossible to make the body totally move in a stylized wing chun way(or any traditional Chinese style for that matter).

[Pacman]

really depends on what you define as boxing skills.

bobbing and weaving? -- too much of that is anti wing chun for various reasons

hooks? -- i guess some wing chun lineages already have this.

its hard to say what "wing chun" is or is not, because everyones wing chun is vastly different.

id say some lineages definitely need to add boxing skills, for the reasons of reach and footwork that we have discussed.

other lineages do not have this issue.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Wing Chun is driven by different concepts and principals than boxing. If you incorperate boxing into Wing Chun you will have to alter those concepts and principals. If you incorperate Wing Chun into Boxing it will require you to alter the concepts and principals here too. What makes each of these skills so effective will no longer be there and something is lost, making each of them less effective in their own right. Every fighting system is developed upon certain concepts and principals, and by mixing and matching them you alter them to the point that they no longer have the advantages that they were designed to give you. Like in MMA, you can mix them in ways that this can not happen. You can do boxing as a stand up, switch to grappling, or jiujitsu if you choose, but you can not mix them as a style or you lose them all. If a person wants to do Wing Chun as their stand up It would be fine I think, but not with boxing style mixed in with it. You can switch to any other fighting system at will. If you get taken down, do jiujitsu. Whatever stand up you decide on, keep it true to concept and principal so that you can take advantage of what it offers, but you can also train in other fighting systems as well. I do Japanese Jiujitsu as well, but I keep them seperate. I did a lot of boxing as a kid at our local boys club. Boxing is ok for a stand up fighting system if a person trains it and keeps it up, but it requires a lot of training usually. And being that I have done lots of boxing I know well that it would suffer if it were to incorperate Wing Chun principals into it. Same with Wing Chun.

[k gledhill]

vt ------- B

[mun hung]

Vankuen - totally agree with you. Thanks.

[YungChun]

What do you not understand?

In short...you roll the shoulders forward (follow through) on your punches in boxing, and in wing chun you keep them relaxed and in line with the body i.e. you don't "follow through" with the shoulders in [most] wing chun.

Of course there's nothing to stop anyone from extending the shoulders with VT strikes, right?

The shoulder is used in any punch of course, but how much you extend either by "rolling the shoulder" or turning the body, IMO is simply up to the person.. One simply needs to be aware of the limitations of whatever is used..

For the most part IMO any small difference of reach is going to be negligible and the fighter will have to be able to move (the body) effectively to get the job done..

[shawchemical]

Not sure if you need to ADD boxing as much as be exposed to it.
But, there is no doubt that boxing is an effective form of fighting and I am sure there are a few things that ANY MA can take from boxing to make their game better.

This sums it up.

Being exposed to the ways and angles which different combat systems approach combat and striking is essential.

However, not because you need to add their techniques to your game, but to really understand where their weaknesses are and to be able to exploit them.

[mun hung]

quote:YungChun
Of course there's nothing to stop anyone from extending the shoulders with VT strikes, right?

The shoulder is used in any punch of course, but how much you extend either by "rolling the shoulder" or turning the body, IMO is simply up to the person.. One simply needs to be aware of the limitations of whatever is used..

I actually disagree with this unless I'm misunderstanding something. I don't really believe it's a choice to use your shoulder or not. You should always punch with the shoulder extended from any position you take to maximize your power. Every punch should be as powerful as you can make it.

[YungChun]

I actually disagree with this unless I'm misunderstanding something. I don't really believe it's a choice to use your shoulder or not. You should always punch with the shoulder extended from any position you take to maximize your power. Every punch should be as powerful as you can make it.

I refer to what was posted as "different" between the typical Western Boxing use of the shoulder and the typical VT use of the shoulder.. (plus other elements) Most would say there are differences between the two mechanics in play.

Some folks see these things as do or don't.. I see it as do as you need to.. IOW I can maintain my VT striking with or without WB use of shoulder, with or without turning/blading, etc...

[mun hung]

Thanks for replying. I do understand your frame of thought and I also understand that you have a choice of what kind of punch you want to execute.

I just believe differently - I try not to waste punches, so I make every one worth the effort. Why hit someone 5 or 6 times when I can do it with 2 or 3? I've got places to go, people to meet. :D

[YungChun]

Thanks for replying. I do understand your frame of thought and I also understand that you have a choice of what kind of punch you want to execute.

I just believe differently - I try not to waste punches, so I make every one worth the effort. Why hit someone 5 or 6 times when I can do it with 2 or 3? I've got places to go, people to meet. :D
Not so sure..

The issue, which is not one I created, is really about facing. If you maintain facing you can't do the mechanic folks are referring to with the WB shoulder/rotation/blading..

So you have a choice either way which gets the emphasis..max rotational power or max facing.. It depends on what you need to do.

[kung fu fighter]

Wing Chun is driven by different concepts and principals than boxing. If you incorperate boxing into Wing Chun you will have to alter those concepts and principals. If you incorperate Wing Chun into Boxing it will require you to alter the concepts and principals here too. What makes each of these skills so effective will no longer be there and something is lost, making each of them less effective in their own right. Every fighting system is developed upon certain concepts and principals, and by mixing and matching them you alter them to the point that they no longer have the advantages that they were designed to give you.

I couldn't have said it better!

[mun hung]

Hi YungChun, what I was originally referring to was the mechanics of a single punch which has nothing to do with facing unless you're talking about the mechanics of the punch at different facing angles. I'm not even talking about applications here. Just a punch.

I was taught to create more power through extending the shoulder forwards in every punch. I was also taught to never hammer downwards in punching. A straight linear movement driven from the elbow creates the most power, efficiency and when backed by the shoulder - stability. Not preaching - just my take on things.

Thank you.

[kung fu fighter]

It is my opinion that one needs to fully understand/master a style by grasping the essence before he decides to make any change/modifications or alteration in any way.

Here is something I got from Yuen Kay San wing chun sifu Tomas Wong's website

"My teacher says sticky hands is a fragmented part of Wing Chun training. There is more to Wing Chun than just that. As a result, Wing Chun has gotten a bad reputation for only looking good but with no practicality. That's why people try to mix it with Muay Thai or some other hard style of boxing when it comes to real fight training.

Totally incorrect.

Everyone who practices martial arts, has had a few fights, or is fairly intelligent when they start martial arts always gets the idea to take the best stuff from every style and create their own personal superstyle. In fact this is how martial arts evolves. But most people are not qualified to do this for one reason. In order to get the best from every style you practice requires years of training. But most people study only short while, or even worse they study for years but never fully grasp the principles and never master the style. So when they take from the style they only end up taking a few moves or techniques; never carrying with them the spirit, the essence of the style.

They dont get "the best stuff".

In our family one of our founders, Fung Siu Ching, incorporated Tai Chi grappling into our Wing Chun. Many people practice some form of Tai Chi and some form of Wing Chun and try to mix the two. So what makes ours different?

Well, Master Fung was well known to be a very experienced general, marshall and bounty hunter for the Qing. He had real hand to hand combat skill for most of his life. He knew Tai Chi grappling probably better than he knew his wife. It was in him, it was a part of him. A soft, internal style principle that is our Kung Fu is internal--its in your soul, your DNA. Many readers frown on the Wing Chun and Tai Chi relationship, and confuse us with some of the masters who add Tai Chi technigues into their Wing Chun techniques like adding apples and oranges together."

[YungChun]

Hi YungChun, what I was originally referring to was the mechanics of a single punch which has nothing to do with facing unless you're talking about the mechanics of the punch at different facing angles. I'm not even talking about applications here. Just a punch.

I was taught to create more power through extending the shoulder forwards in every punch. I was also taught to never hammer downwards in punching. A straight linear movement driven from the elbow creates the most power, efficiency and when backed by the shoulder - stability. Not preaching - just my take on things.

Thank you.

The basis for the issue in question is driven by the problem of facing, or not, during the engagement and when...not about an abstract idea of a single strike.

[mun hung]

quote:
The basis for the issue in question is driven by the problem of facing, or not, during the engagement and when...

None of the above.

Too complicated.

Just one punch.......

Simple. Direct. Powerful. Beautiful.

I guess we'll have to meet up one of these days so that you can show me what you mean.

We're both in NYC.

Thanks for trying to explain your side.

- P

[YungChun]

quote:
The basis for the issue in question is driven by the problem of facing, or not, during the engagement and when...

None of the above.

Too complicated.

Just one punch.......

Simple. Direct. Powerful. Beautiful.

I guess we'll have to meet up one of these days so that you can show me what you mean.

We're both in NYC.

Thanks for trying to explain your side.

- P

That's just it.. You haven't been following the issue.. It's not "my side"...or even my thread... The issue is not about an abstract idea of a single strike.. It's about the fighting methods of VT... and supposed longer reach of certain strikes............

[Emeraldphoenix]

I haved watched and fought wing chun practitioners and anything outside the zone seems to throw them off. High kicks, round punches, over hands. etc. But that is only based on my limited exp. I will say dont let them get in close on you. That is their game and i will not play someone elses game if i dont have to.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I haved watched and fought wing chun practitioners and anything outside the zone seems to throw them off. High kicks, round punches, over hands. etc. But that is only based on my limited exp. I will say dont let them get in close on you. That is their game and i will not play someone elses game if i dont have to.

***YOU'RE "limited" experience is quite a universal one, actually. Wing Chun is a close quarter striking system, and the whole "to shoulder or not to shoulder"....or the..."one punch or many" debate that's been going on is reflective of that experience.

The longer range punches used in boxing like leads, crosses, round punches, and overhands....and certain longer range and arching/round kicks (because of the footwork and the shoulder extension used in those kinds of strikes) do cause problems...

since it's a longer zone/distance being used than the more shoulders-squared-up-parallel-to-each-other movement used in wing chun.

And the emphasis on the main centerline (and attacking the center) emphasized at longer ranges can also be problematical when not in very close.

Yes, wing chun punching in the classical sense will use some shoulder torque, but the emphasis on the waist and elbow source of power limits the amount of shoulder torque used (as does the wing chun footwork and basic structural alignment)...

and that limitation in the amount of shoulder torque (and the corresponding boxing-like footwork)...or should I say, non-use of such things...is the reason why wing chun fighting requires a certain close range zone.

Many people say you can make up for this with your wing chun cutting and angling footwork and timing....but I've yet to see a serious matchup of real good boxing skills and wing chun wherein the wing chun fighter got the better of the situation without doing some of the above mentioend (non-classical) wing chun boxing/kickboxing-like things - when not in close. AND TO HELP GET CLOSE.

Hence the "charge" made so often that wing chun sparring/fighting looks like some form of boxing, kickboxing, or JKD.

My contention is that, in order to be successful, at certain ranges it will have to look like that - against a skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer type...regardless of how knowledgeable and skilled the wing chun guy is - at wing chun.

Unless of course you want to do these boxing/kickboxing-like things and still say it's wing chun. :cool:

[SnowDog]

I'm going with A -

Not only do I think it could add to Wing Chun, but being exposed to it helps when trying to fight against it.

I think this is true with any art

[Vajramusti]

Victor has held to his position for quite some time, which his ok with me. But no one speaks for all of wing chun.

IMO- wing chun is adaptable to many circumstances- because the wing chun person is the key-the
art is just available for development...

if someone is interested in boxing or wrestling or bjj or jj to satisfy their own curiosity- I see no problem-it does not tarnish wing chun kuen.

If someone( a beginner) does not have a good wing chun teacher- I have always held the position that if there is a great teacher of some other style available- the person would benefit in learning from that teacher.Wing chun is not the only way. .. but it is for me a pretty darn good way...and one's understanding and skills evolves with time.

And non wing chun trolling and using bad wing chun as examples -are just straw man time wasting arguments in some of the threads in KFO...

The art is just fine- an individual can fail by their own lack of understanding or disciplined practice.

Of course- when the opportunity is there, without breaking the law- one should test what one knows against representatives of other styles and in other occasions by choice or circumstance.

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

And if someone has had a good wing chun teacher, or perhaps even two of the best - what then?

Or maybe more than two?

Joy is certainly entitled to his view, and so far in the poll most voters agree with him. But again, I've yet to see any real life (or video) of some fight, or sparring, or tournament wherein someone with some serious boxing skills (doesn't even have to be a pro - but someone who clearly has some real good boxing skills)...lost...to a wing chun guy...

without that wing chun guy using some form of boxing or kickboxing as part of what he was doing.

NEVER.

And I've been around this game for 35 years now.

And I'm discounting any serious mis-matches when the wing chun guy may have towered over the other guy in height, weight, or reach.

Apples-to-apples.

HAVE NEVER SEEN IT.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The problem you run into here is that Wing Chun was not developed to fight against Wing Chun. In training we usually have other Wing Chun people to work with. It can be very difficult to fight or defend against if you are using Wing Chun because you both know the drill. The result is that both parties get off into the Chi Sao game and that is as far as they go. When first you come up against a person that wants to box or just plain old fist fight you will have trouble dealing with him because you have not trained for that. This I think is where most WC people get into trouble. You have to use it the way it was developed to use, and you are not going to do that if you spend your training days doing Chi Sao with your training partner. A regular figher will normally do something similar to boxing. Maybe a kick now and then. He will have no idea about trapping and such, and once you make contact you can usually own him. You have to be extremely aggressive however, and it helps to train hard toward that.

[mun hung]

The problem you run into here is that Wing Chun was not developed to fight against Wing Chun. In training we usually have other Wing Chun people to work with. It can be very difficult to fight or defend against if you are using Wing Chun because you both know the drill. The result is that both parties get off into the Chi Sao game and that is as far as they go. When first you come up against a person that wants to box or just plain old fist fight you will have trouble dealing with him because you have not trained for that. This I think is where most WC people get into trouble. You have to use it the way it was developed to use, and you are not going to do that if you spend your training days doing Chi Sao with your training partner. A regular figher will normally do something similar to boxing. Maybe a kick now and then. He will have no idea about trapping and such, and once you make contact you can usually own him. You have to be extremely aggressive however, and it helps to train hard toward that.


These are very true words. Fighting drills must be done against other arts and not our own.

[mun hung]

That's just it.. You haven't been following the issue.. It's not "my side"...or even my thread... The issue is not about an abstract idea of a single strike.. It's about the fighting methods of VT... and supposed longer reach of certain strikes............


Actually.... Vankuen and I were discussing the differences in shoulder usage between boxers and typical Wing Chun and not the fighting ideology behind it. He even posted videos to demonstrate this. We were talking about the punch and it's shoulder involvement and that was it. No need to discuss this further unless you would like to do it in person (no threat by this).

No worries. I understand where you're coming from now.

Peace.

- P

[YungChun]

Actually.... Vankuen and I were discussing the differences in shoulder usage between boxers and typical Wing Chun and not the fighting ideology behind it. He even posted videos to demonstrate this. We were talking about the punch and it's shoulder involvement and that was it. No need to discuss this further unless you would like to do it in person (no threat by this).

No worries. I understand where you're coming from now.

Peace.

- P

Actually the whole forum have been discussing these issues for quite some time..

In the end if you understand VT facing, and using the hands together vs turning/shoulder then IMO it's clear that VT does both...of these but not really like a boxer..

You are welcome to come work out, I am always looking for workout partners.. Simply PM me...

[mun hung]

Actually the whole forum have been discussing these issues for quite some time..

In the end if you understand VT facing, and using the hands together vs turning/shoulder then IMO it's clear that VT does both...of these but not really like a boxer..

You are welcome to come work out, I am always looking for workout partners.. Simply PM me...


I've seen this topic comes up a lot over the years also. We've had some heated debates over facing. Do you train in a school setting?

- P

[shawchemical]

***YOU'RE "limited" experience is quite a universal one, actually. Wing Chun is a close quarter striking system, and the whole "to shoulder or not to shoulder"....or the..."one punch or many" debate that's been going on is reflective of that experience.

The longer range punches used in boxing like leads, crosses, round punches, and overhands....and certain longer range and arching/round kicks (because of the footwork and the shoulder extension used in those kinds of strikes) do cause problems...

since it's a longer zone/distance being used than the more shoulders-squared-up-parallel-to-each-other movement used in wing chun.

And the emphasis on the main centerline (and attacking the center) emphasized at longer ranges can also be problematical when not in very close.

Yes, wing chun punching in the classical sense will use some shoulder torque, but the emphasis on the waist and elbow source of power limits the amount of shoulder torque used (as does the wing chun footwork and basic structural alignment)...

and that limitation in the amount of shoulder torque (and the corresponding boxing-like footwork)...or should I say, non-use of such things...is the reason why wing chun fighting requires a certain close range zone.

Many people say you can make up for this with your wing chun cutting and angling footwork and timing....but I've yet to see a serious matchup of real good boxing skills and wing chun wherein the wing chun fighter got the better of the situation without doing some of the above mentioend (non-classical) wing chun boxing/kickboxing-like things - when not in close. AND TO HELP GET CLOSE.

Hence the "charge" made so often that wing chun sparring/fighting looks like some form of boxing, kickboxing, or JKD.

My contention is that, in order to be successful, at certain ranges it will have to look like that - against a skilled boxer/kickboxer/Thai boxer type...regardless of how knowledgeable and skilled the wing chun guy is - at wing chun.

Unless of course you want to do these boxing/kickboxing-like things and still say it's wing chun. :cool:

Proof you just don't get it.

[Hardwork108]

I haved watched and fought wing chun practitioners and anything outside the zone seems to throw them off. High kicks, round punches, over hands. etc. But that is only based on my limited exp. I will say dont let them get in close on you. That is their game and i will not play someone elses game if i dont have to.

REAL wing chun covers all ranges but emphasizes the closer ones. The WC (and Chow Gar) style/mentality that I have been exposed to would love to be faced with high kickers and "round punchers". In fact some of these techniques are seen as "weak".

I believe that the problem with this thread (as interesting as it may be) is that it uses incomplete Mc Wing Chun as taught in over 95% of schools out there as a base for its Poll.

IMHO there is no genuine kung fu style out there which haveing evolved through wars and turmoils in the hands of real masters, will suddenly be defeated because the opponent suddenly threw a hook punch or a high kick at its practitioners.

IMHO, these things only happen in Mcdojo land and we all live in it. That is why one must be very choosey as to where one trains their kung fu.

A few of us have been lucky but most of us haven't, and that is how the cookie crumbles in Mcdojo land and that is why polls like this have so many wrong answers by people, including those who will claim expertise in Wing Chun (or even other kung fu styles).

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I believe that the problem with this thread (as interesting as it may be) is that it uses incomplete Mc Wing Chun as taught in over 95% of schools out there as a base for its Poll." (Hardwork)

***Ah yes, the old "your wing chun is incomplete and therefore you can't make it work" argument. You gotta love that one. It's been around a long time and has still has a nice ring to it.

Or, of course, this one: "GOOD wing chun won't have to add any.........."(fill in the blank).

Please show me a vid of someone from that 5% group getting the better of a real good boxer (doesn't have to be a pro) without adding something to his wing chun...something that might make him susceptible to the charge that "he looks like some form of boxer/kickboxer/JKD guy - and not purely a wing chun guy.
.............................................

"IMHO there is no genuine kung fu style out there which having evolved through wars and turmoils in the hands of real masters, will suddenly be defeated because the opponent suddenly threw a hook punch or a high kick at its practitioners." (Hardwork)

***Did you say "suddenly threw a hook punch"? Did you really say that? Have to seriously wonder if you've ever done any fighting/sparring against someone with legit boxing skills. The hook is always set up by something. And anyone who just "suddenly" throws one is not a good boxer.

[Frost]

"I believe that the problem with this thread (as interesting as it may be) is that it uses incomplete Mc Wing Chun as taught in over 95% of schools out there as a base for its Poll." (Hardwork)

***Ah yes, the old "your wing chun is incomplete and therefore you can't make it work" argument. You gotta love that one. It's been around a long time and has still has a nice ring to it.

Or, of course, this one: "GOOD wing chun won't have to add any.........."(fill in the blank).

Please show me a vid of someone from that 5% group getting the better of a real good boxer (doesn't have to be a pro) without adding something to his wing chun...something that might make him susceptible to the charge that "he looks like some form of boxer/kickboxer/JKD guy - and not purely a wing chun guy.
.............................................

"IMHO there is no genuine kung fu style out there which having evolved through wars and turmoils in the hands of real masters, will suddenly be defeated because the opponent suddenly threw a hook punch or a high kick at its practitioners." (
Hardwork)

***Did you say "suddenly threw a hook punch"? Did you really say that? Have to seriously wonder if you've ever done any fighting/sparring against someone with legit boxing skills. The hook is always set up by something. And anyone who just "suddenly" throws one is not a good boxer.

ill save you some time the answer is no he has not ever faced a boxer, nor has he really done any training outside of dressing up like a spartan, he likes to talk about real wingchun but he doiesn't have a teacher and never completed the style when he did train under someone...and that someone was hardly what any other wing chun guy would consider good if you catch my drift:)

[Hardwork108]

***Ah yes, the old "your wing chun is incomplete and therefore you can't make it work" argument. You gotta love that one. It's been around a long time and has still has a nice ring to it.

So, what are you saying? That your WC is complete but it somehow needs boxing techniques to make it more effective? Or are you saying that it is an incomplete art, just because you have not been taught the complete version?


Or, of course, this one: "GOOD wing chun won't have to add any.........."(fill in the blank).
Good Wing Chun is COMPLETE Wing Chun. Many, and I mean many, of WC training nowadays, ignore the Chi-na aspects; lack many of the hand and leg techniques that one can see in the "older" lineages, and do not comprehend the Internal aspects of this art. Then the practitioners who have not really practiced the genuine art go on to "improve" it by adding outside techniques to an art they have not understood, often going against principles the art itself.


Please show me a vid of someone from that 5% group getting the better of a real good boxer (doesn't have to be a pro) without adding something to his wing chun...something that might make him susceptible to the charge that "he looks like some form of boxer/kickboxer/JKD guy - and not purely a wing chun guy.

You will only see videos of the type of fight you described in sports competitions. Wing Chun was not designed for sports competitions.

If you want the contact sports fighting manifestation of kung fu then put one of your boxers against a Sanda fighter and see where he goes from there.
.............................................



***Did you say "suddenly threw a hook punch"? Did you really say that? Have to seriously wonder if you've ever done any fighting/sparring against someone with legit boxing skills. The hook is always set up by something. And anyone who just "suddenly" throws one is not a good boxer.

For your information, and you should know this from your boxing experience, you can "suddenly" throw a hood, after a set up. Isn't that the point of a set up or are you meant to set up your opponent and then light a cigar before hooking him? Lol

Also, are you saying now that a kung fu exponent will be unfamiliar with "set ups" as well?

IMHO, when you are taught incompletely then you go on to fill in the gap as best as you can, and that is fair enough in view of the fact that you may not have any exposure to a complete version of Wing Chun, however, you cannot assume "poetic licence" and call what you do, Wing Chun, specially if you imply that it is somehow an "improved" WC.

Hey, you don't have to agree with me but I am making a fair point.

[Hardwork108]

ill save you some time the answer is no he has not ever faced a boxer, nor has he really done any training outside of dressing up like a spartan, he likes to talk about real wingchun but he doiesn't have a teacher and never completed the style when he did train under someone...and that someone was hardly what any other wing chun guy would consider good if you catch my drift:)

Interesting words from a guy who would improve Wing Chun by adding Olympic Weight training exercises to it. Lol, lol, lol.


You are repeating the lies that Sanjuro ronin keeps spewing out. Isn't it funny that he never said any of that stuff to my sifu's face when he was standing in front of him. LOL

Hey Frost, I still remember your "enlightening" comments about the implied place and importance of Olympic Weight training in an Internal kung fu training program. It always makes me chuckle.

Yet again, thanks for the laughs......

Now, be a nice boy and don't disrupt this thread. Whatever, my disagreement with Victor may be, it is still related to the thread subject. So please stop your unprovoked spewing of knucklehead poison.

Thanks in advance. :)

[Frost]

Interesting words from a guy who would improve Wing Chun by adding Olympic Weight training exercises to it. Lol, lol, lol.


You are repeating the lies that Sanjuro ronin keeps spewing out. Isn't it funny that he never said any of that stuff to my sifu's face when he was standing in front of him. LOL

Hey Frost, I still remember your "enlightening" comments about the implied place and importance of Olympic Weight training in an Internal kung fu training program. It always makes me chuckle.

Yet again, thanks for the laughs......

Now, be a nice boy and don't disrupt this thread. Whatever, my disagreement with Victor may be, it is still related to the thread subject. So please stop your unprovoked spewing of knucklehead poison.

Thanks in advance. :)

no problem I still remember your stupid comments about strength training in general and martial arts training in particular...always fun to remember when coming in from a hard training session.....by the way any luck in finding a school that’s enlightened enough to actually let you train there as a student....it must be terrible knowing your teacher moved half way round the world to get away from you :D