Mantis style ages of origins-which is which?

[LaterthanNever]

I'm saddened to see the "Mantis cave" is no more..it really was an excellent resource.

OK--I guess I've asked this question before, but now understand why it didn't really get resolved..because in looking back, I didn't ask the right question.

I've been told that in the beginning the style was just called "praying mantis".

So my revised question is..out of all of the CURRENT variations of mantis(7 star, plum blossom, tai chi, 8 step, 6 harmonies,etc.etc.)..which is the oldest chronologically from the date of its founding on and on down the line to the youngest?

For instance:

6 harmonies--oldest because founded in ------ by -----

7 star- next oldest because found in ---- by ----

plum blossom-- 3rd oldest because founded in ----- by ----

and so on and so forth. (these are just arbitary examples--the order could be completely different and probably is..given my limited knowledge )

The only one I know for a fact which is somewhat younger is 8 step in part because I study it and also because I've read in several sources that it's an offshoot of plum blossom.

So far, I believe there are 6 main styles of mantis with a few lesser known variants.

[German Bai Lung]

Here are all the infos:

Mantiscave - New (http://www.themantiscave.tk/)

[SanHeChuan]

Seven Star is supposedly the oldest and closest to the original.

[mooyingmantis]

Seven Star is supposedly the oldest and closest to the original.

What is your statement based on?

It is well known that LKY modified some of the forms during his time with the Jing Wu and created some of the forms in the current 7* curriculum. WHF further changed some of the forms from how LKY taught them. So how can we say that 7* is closest to the original?

BTW, I am not dissing 7*, it was the style I was trained in (WHF lineage).

Richard

[Three Harmonies]

Richard
Keep in mind HK 7* is not the only Seven Star. Mainland Plum Blossom and Seven Star are almost indiscernible in some schools.
"Originally" mantis was just... Mantis. The names and titles came later.

JAB

[mooyingmantis]

Jake,
Thanks for the clarification!

Richard

[LaterthanNever]

Thanks all for your commentary and insight!

3 Harmonies:

"Originally" mantis was just... Mantis. The names and titles came later."

That relates back to my original question. What was the first name and title? Doesn't it stand to reason that out of the 6 main families of mantis(7 star, PB,8S,6H,TJ,etc.) that there is one of them that is the oldest of the "named" styles currently in existence? If so..which?

Thank you :)

[SanHeChuan]

What is your statement based on?

The internets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Praying_Mantis_(martial_art)#Widespread_s tyles).

[Three Harmonies]

Usually considered only 4-5 styles of mantis, but either way I have no clue bro. And frankly probably will never know for sure. We can speculate, but I doubt there is any historical proof anywhere.

JAB

[mooyingmantis]

Andy,
Excellent assessment!

Richard

[mantis108]

Brief Synopsis of Shandong Praying Mantis Kung Fu and Development of CCK TCPM

In mainland China, it is generally acknowledged that there are 4 main branches of Shandong Tanglangquan. They are Meihua (plum blossom), Taiji (grand ultimate), Qixing (seven stars), and Liuhe (six harmonies). There are sub styles and hybrid styles that came out of these 4 main branches.

It is commonly agreed upon that Wang Lang (王朗), also Romanized as Wong Long, was the founder of the praying mantis system. This is based mainly on an existing Quanpu (manuscripts) that is called Luohan Xing Gong Duanda (Arhat short strikes) which is believed to be an indigenous Shandong pugilistic system existed sometime between Ming to mid Qing dynasty (approx. 1368 - 1780 CE). Many versions of this manuscript are available including couple that influenced the Qixing line and Greater Meihua Line (GML), which is consisted of Meihua, Taiji, Taiji Meihua. It is believe that GML basically adsorbed the concepts and principles of the Arhat short strikes and subsequent manuscripts were written by the progenitor of the GML - Liang Xuexiang (1810 - 1895 CE); while Qixing keeps the content of the manuscript pretty much intact. The theoretical portion of the Arhat short strikes manuscript is known as Shaolin Yi Bol Zhen Chuan (少林衣缽真傳) which means Shaolin authentic transmission.

Since CCK TCPM is derived from the GML, this article will not comment further on other lines’ development. We will however describe briefly the Greater Meihua Line's development.

There is without a doubt that Liang Xuexiang was the progenitor of the GML as we know it. The GML is composed of 3 main sub styles - Meihua, Taji Meihua, and Taiji. These sub style distinctions happened because Liang Xuexiang changed the convention of private teaching to public teaching. This attracted a lot of other styles practitioner to his Tanglangquan system. They brought in a lot of different material as well. All 3 designations of the sub styles came from an entry found in Liang's Quanpu about the profile of Tanglang Pugilism in which the Meihua referred to the five old hands or signature techniques, and Taiji referred to the constantly changing formation of the hands of the Mantis strikes. There are also mentioning of monkey body and rooster stepping which formed the Mantis stance from the same entry but they are irrelevant to the designations.

The difference between the sub styles is both geographical and structural.

Meihua is possibly the earliest and the widest spread of them all. It's found in various Counties in the Shangdong area such as Haiyang, Laiyang, Yantai, Qingdao etc. It has not only the core of mantis that is consisted of 3 mother forms and 6 Zhaiyao/essentials forms, but also the white ape series. The weaponry of this sub branch isn’t extensive at all.

Taiji Meihua used to be mainly found in Yantai City, old Capital of Shandong, but are now found further north east into former Manchurian territories. Also internationally it is quite well known these days and has fairly large contingents both in Korea and Germany. It has the core of mantis, white ape series, long fist (possibly Sun Bin Quan) materials that are found in local armed escort service and extensive weaponry with spear that of Hao family being the crème de la crème weapon.

Taiji is perhaps the one that is remained close to the fundamentals of Tanglangquan. There are 2 main lines in the Taiji Tanglang - Sun Yuanchang and Jiang Hualong-Song Zide. Both Sun and Jiang are Liang Xue Xiang's outstanding students. Jiang Hualong (1855 – CE) who is well known as a master of Meihua Tanglang created Babu Tanglang (8 Step). It is mainly taught in Laiyang, Haiyang (Liang's home County) and Yantai (via Chi Shoujin). The Qingdao contingent is started by Wang Yushan, son-in-law of Song Zide, who was the sworn brother and student of Jiang Hualong.

There are the 3 mother forms, 7 sections of Zhaiyao, and Digong Men material (groundfighting system - Liang's early art). It has focus on lots of Tanglang Shou Fa, otherwise known as Mishou (secret hands), and emphasis on both hard and soft Qigong. Weaponry is minimal. In some ways, this is the back to be basic sub style amongst the Greater Meihua Line.

It is believed that Sun Yuanchang (1846 – 1935 CE) taught publicly in Haiyang with Meihua Tanglang; while, he taught his honorary son, Chi Shoujin (? – 1927 CE), who taught Grandmaster Zhao Zhuxi (Chiu Chuk Kai 1900 - 1991 CE) Taiji Tanglang. Grandmaster Chiu took it a step further into developing what I would consider a hybrid style of Taiji Tanglang that includes his Taizu Men (also his link to armed escort service), Jingwu Men, Taijiquan (Chen style) and Yong Chun wooden dummy work to form CCK TCPM. I would caution though that it was never his intention to develop a hybrid style of Tanglang. He had always called what he taught as Taiji Tanglang or Tai Chi Tong Long (in Cantonese). It's just that his life long experiences warranted in my humble opinion a distinction that his students and grand students including myself proposed posthumously the designation of CCK TCPM.

[mantis108]

BTW, the Wang Lang legend is actually a twist on the age old "white ape steals peach" myth which is a tale of the struggle between the State of Wei (Henan Province) and State of Qi (Shandong Province) during the Warring State period.

[mooyingmantis]

Here is what I wrote for our school's student manual:

The history of tanglangquan can be traced back to the end of the Qing dynasty (1644 - 1911 A.D.) and the Shandong Province of Eastern China. The teachings of tanglangquan were practiced by the Taoist monks of Mount Laoshan. Two monks, Yu Zhou Dao Ren and Shen Xiao Dao Ren, are credited with passing on separate tanglangquan methods that would blossom into the many styles of tanglangquan practiced today.1

The tanglangquan method practiced by Yu Zhou Dao Ren was passed down four generations to Liang Xue Xiang.2 Master Liang was born in the Yushan Kuang village of Haiyang County in Shandong Province (circa. 1810 A.D.). He was the first to use the name Plum Blossom Praying Mantis (Mei Hua Tang Lang). He taught the Bengbu, Lanjie and Bazhou forms and was the creator of the Zhai Yao (Summary) forms. He added hei kung (breathing exercises) and di tang quan (ground boxing) to his style.

The tanglangquan method practiced by Shen Xiao Dao Ren, was passed down two generations to Wang Rong Shen.3 4 Master Wang was born in the city of Yantai in Shandong Province (circa. 1854 A.D.). He was the first to use the name Seven Star Praying Mantis (Qi Xing Tang Lang). He created the qixing tang lang core forms in 1890. Wang had previously trained in chang quan and di tang quan. Wang was a friend of Hao Liang Ru of the Mei Hua Tang Lang and may have been influenced by Master Hao’s teachings.

Several students of Liang Xue Xiang went on to found their own interpretation of tanglangquan in the late nineteenth/early twentieth centuries. Liang Zhong Chuan created Chang Quan Tang Lang, Sun Yuan Chang created Taiji Tang Lang, Hao Lian Ru created Tai Ji Mei Hua Tang Lang, and Jian Hua Long created Ba Bu Tang Lang.



1 The term dao ren (Tao person) was an honorific title which was given to Taoist practitioners of that day.
2 Yu Zhou Dao Ren > Da Dao > Li Bing Xiao > Zhao Qi Lu > Liang Xue Xiang
3 Shen Xiao was the Abbot of the Yun Hua temple in Cha County, Shandong.
4 Shen Xiao Dao Ren > Li San Jian > Wang Rong Shen

As to which came first, I do not believe there is documentary evidence that reveals this answer. Liang and Wang lived during the same period of time and represented two lines of tanglangquan that were being practiced in the same province. Which came first is really a non-issue. Before their time, it was all just known as tanglangquan.

Richard A. Tolson

[Three Harmonies]

What source(s) did you get your info from Richard?

Thanks
Jake

[mooyingmantis]

What source(s) did you get your info from Richard?

Thanks
Jake

Jake,
My sources were posts written here and at the Mantis Quarterly forums by Robert Hui, Kevin Brazier and Sal Canzonieri that contained documentary evidence of their opinions. I also used information taken from The Mantis Cave.
Since the section I wrote was for a student manual, rather than a doctoral thesis, I didn't feel the need to cite sources in the manual.
Though your question was of course valid and germane to this discussion. :)

Richard

[Three Harmonies]

Cool beans. Are there facts from actual documented sources, or does it all boil down to here-say?
Thanks
Jake

[mooyingmantis]

Cool beans. Are there facts from actual documented sources, or does it all boil down to here-say?
Thanks
Jake

References:

Chang Shi Wu Ji Shu
Luohan Xing Gong Duanda
Quan Gun Qiang Pu

If you are interested in learning more about the subject, the search engine here is a wonderful tool. :)

Richard

[Three Harmonies]

If you are not interested in quoting sources, perhaps writing about it in general is not such a great idea. I assume you make these posts to invoke conversation?

JAB

[mooyingmantis]

If you are not interested in quoting sources, perhaps writing about it in general is not such a great idea. I assume you make these posts to invoke conversation?

JAB

Rather than being critical, why not add to the discussion?

What does your instructor, Hu Xilin, have to say about Mantis history?

Richard

[Three Harmonies]

I am free to be critical on a public board bro. You state certain "facts" and all I asked was the sources. Hardly critical in my opinion.

Hu Xi Lin is not a historian, so outside of our family and lineage he takes a common sensical approach... much of what is purported to be "fact" in the CMA is actually fantasy at best in many cases. So in lieu of propagating fiction, Hu has left the arguments for those who are doing scholarly research into the subject.

Hence one asking for sources.
JAB

[mooyingmantis]

I am free to be critical on a public board bro. You state certain "facts" and all I asked was the sources. Hardly critical in my opinion.

Hu Xi Lin is not a historian, so outside of our family and lineage he takes a common sensical approach... much of what is purported to be "fact" in the CMA is actually fantasy at best in many cases. So in lieu of propagating fiction, Hu has left the arguments for those who are doing scholarly research into the subject.

Hence one asking for sources.
JAB

So, then you should be able to provide information on your family, lineage and how they believe tanglangquan started and developed.. If you really want to engage in a discussion.

I gave the sources mentioned by the people who wrote the posts I referenced. Anyone who is truly interested should be able to take it from there, as I did.

Richard

[Three Harmonies]

Lame:rolleyes: