Robert Chu's Master Class DVD

[SAAMAG]

I thought that we could have a good discussion on this DVD and its contents given that alot of us here have access to it.

So first things first....

I wanted to discuss the idea that he brought up about nipples. Some people have innie's and other's have outie's. Some are closer together and some are wider. I personally thought he could have gone into more detail on this by describing the length of certain nipples and how those can be used in chin na applications albeit through a wing chun lens.

BTW...did you see Raffi's smile when Robert started talking about that?! My fiancee was laughing her ass off!!!

(P.S. this is just something I thought was funny in the video...but in all seriousness there's great information in it--some old some new, all great!)

[sanjuro_ronin]

:D
http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0905/j-los-nipple-tweaker-demotivational-poster-1243704536.jpg

[HumbleWCGuy]

SJ, that is just crazy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

SJ, that is just crazy.

Don't hate bro, some guys get all the breaks !
LOL !

[HumbleWCGuy]

Are there any previews of his DVD on the net? I would like to get a sense for what they contain.

Maybe some people who know Robert should ask him to post a sample or two?

[SAAMAG]

No previews that I know of...

but if you'd like a personal review, I'd say it's worth getting. Most of the information is a variant of things that you probably know well already (if you're at the level of teaching others or have gotten through the entire curriculum).

A lot of it is simply reminding you of fundamentals and correcting many of the long ingrained misconceptions in application. It may not all be "new" -- but its definitely something I'm glad I have in my newly formed "library". His DVD is one of two sets that I have! ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

No previews....

A lot of it is simply fundamentals...then application of those fundamentals. It may not all be "new" -- but its definitely something I'm glad I have in my newly formed "library". His DVD is one of two sets that I have! ;)

That's the stuff that I like the most. I have found that hearing a fresh explanation can make all the difference. My stuff is probably 180 from Robert's stuff. It's all WC, but they go about their business a bit differently.

[SAAMAG]

Well when I took a look at alan's series, he took wing chun and worked it out in a way that would indisputably prove it's worth. I liked that because it went well with my ideologies of wing chun in combat and gave new light into how I could apply my wing chun.

Given that Robert was the source I decided that it would be good to also get a hold of his series, so far I like what I see. Sure there's things that I disagree with in terms of workable application but that's what makes wing chun great--it's format allows for those differences

[chusauli]

Since I am under contract, I cannot put any samples up on anywhere but my own website and it must be less than 1 minute 50 seconds.

Since I don't have the right equipment for that, I will defer to my students to do so...

But $69 isn't a lot to cough up for 3 DVD's and priceless info.

[Hendrik]

Well when I took a look at alan's series, he took wing chun and worked it out in a way that would indisputably prove it's worth. I liked that because it went well with my ideologies of wing chun in combat and gave new light into how I could apply my wing chun.

Given that Robert was the source I decided that it would be good to also get a hold of his series, so far I like what I see. Sure there's things that I disagree with in terms of workable application but that's what makes wing chun great--it's format allows for those differences



So what is the teaching of Robert you like the best in the DVD?

Ok To ask What is your WCK lineage ?

[Hendrik]

Are there any previews of his DVD on the net? I would like to get a sense for what they contain.

Maybe some people who know Robert should ask him to post a sample or two?



Order the DVD, its value is superb. and may be you could also see why is WCK has no block but handling of dynamic flow. For me, Robert has done an excellent job getting the core of WCK across.

[Hendrik]

Since I am under contract, I cannot put any samples up on anywhere but my own website and it must be less than 1 minute 50 seconds.

Since I don't have the right equipment for that, I will defer to my students to do so...

But $69 isn't a lot to cough up for 3 DVD's and priceless info.


Robert,

I rather get a full set of DVD then watching the 1 minute which is not that fun at all to not see the full story; learn from you, when you presenting the art from your heart.

Thanks again for your sharing from your heart.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Order the DVD, its value is superb. and may be you could also see why is WCK has no block but handling of dynamic flow. For me, Robert has done an excellent job getting the core of WCK across.

I don't disagree with that. That is the heart of what WC is. I was just saying that blocking needs to be a part of it to account for people's in ability to always do the correct thing. If I were watching a video on WC, I would not want to see a video on hard blocks. It would not be distinctively WC.

[SAAMAG]

So what is the teaching of Robert you like the best in the DVD?

Ok To ask What is your WCK lineage ?

I like the emphasis he gives to the structure and how to use it as the generator for everything.

There was a glitch in the third disc where music was playing during his teaching--a sound editing error. Did you have the same in yours?

[Hendrik]

I don't disagree with that.


That is the heart of what WC is.

I was just saying that blocking needs to be a part of it to account for people's in ability to always do the correct thing.


If I were watching a video on WC, I would not want to see a video on hard blocks. It would not be distinctively WC.


Robert and me are brother, I know him very well, the WCK he teaches is what he practice and what he will do even if he was attacked while he is sleeping. There is no show business in that DVD but what Robert hold close to his own heart. That make the DVD precious.


WCK is WCK.
what you say about blocking is your opinion which I accept.
I accepted that similar to accepting any one can give his opinion here in this WCK forum about why he think Blocking is needed for WCK.

[Hendrik]

I like the emphasis he gives to the structure and how to use it as the generator for everything.

There was a glitch in the third disc where music was playing during his teaching--a sound editing error. Did you have the same in yours?


You love the structure stuff. You should visit him and learn those first hand so it becomes a second nature for you.


I took slow sip on the DVD tasting every details.
I have not at the third disc yet. Will tell you when I am there.


What do you think about block in WCK after you watch the DVD?

[SAAMAG]

You love the structure stuff. You should visit him and learn those first hand so it becomes a second nature for you.


I took slow sip on the DVD tasting every details.
I have not at the third disc yet. Will tell you when I am there.


What do you think about block in WCK after you watch the DVD?

Well you don't need to work with him first hand to develop the structure...because all wing chun should have that structure. That's something that should have always been there to begin with.

Blocking? I don't think anything different than I did before watching the dvd.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have gone through vol 1 and 2, will try to see 3 today.
So far so good, nothing new per say , nor did I expect there to be, but well done and informative.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have gone through vol 1 and 2, will try to see 3 today.
So far so good, nothing new per say , nor did I expect there to be, but well done and informative.

***THERE IS nothing new in the "full body structure" that Robert Chu and Alan Orr always talk about. It's been a part of wing chun for the longest.

[Knifefighter]

***THERE IS nothing new in the "full body structure" that Robert Chu and Alan Orr always talk about. It's been a part of wing chun for the longest.

What's new is that they understand how to make it work consistently.

What's new is the way they train it.

What's new is that from the two above things, additional things evolve into it, making it an essentially new entity.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Please show me, Dale, on what part of any youtube vid containing the mma matches that Alan's guys engage in where there is something new going on - in terms of body structure or anything else.

[Knifefighter]

Please show me, Dale, on what part of any youtube vid containing the mma matches that Alan's guys engage in where there is something new going on - in terms of body structure or anything else.

Pretty much everything where the WC people are saying "That's not WC."

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha! Ha! Ha!

"You're a regular riot, Alice"...

(Jackie Gleason would have hired you, Dale).

[YungChun]

I knew he was going to say that..

Whats new about that VT is that it's Boxing and Wrestling.. Something Dale highly approves of.. :rolleyes::cool::D

[Knifefighter]

I knew he was going to say that..

Whats new about that VT is that it's Boxing and Wrestling.. Something Dale highly approves of.. :rolleyes::cool::D

What's new is that they have interweaved it with boxing, wrestling, clinch fighting, takedowns and groundfighting.

What's new is that they have thrown out the stuff that doesn't work.

BTW, you never answered my question: Is wrestling a bridging art?

[YungChun]

What's new is that they have interweaved it with boxing, wrestling, clinch fighting, takedowns and groundfighting.

What's new is that they have thrown out the stuff that doesn't work.


There is nothing new about the VT.. Adding MT to Boxing doesn't make the Boxing new..



BTW, you never answered my question: Is wrestling a bridging art?

Oh did you want to play more with this?

In the sense of what SCMA do, that's (Southern Chinese Martial Arts), no IMO, but in the sense of connection, then yes..

[Ultimatewingchun]

is the stuff we've yet to see in wing chun mma fighting that WILL WORK in an mma setting.

So once again, kudos to Alan and his guys for that they'vre been able to do so far, but I strongly believe that there's more to come from the wing chun world within mma fighting. What Alan's guys are doing is A version of wing chun - and Dale rightly says that it's mixed with boxing, wrestling, and MT style clinch fighting (and you can throw in BJJ too)...

but I believe that as time goes on we'll see wing chun guys also using pak, lop, bong, garn, bil, etc. And punching patterns that closely resemble the vertical fist, elbows-held-down-and-in-close-to-the-sides-of-the-body that characterizes wing chun.

As well as the more elevated elbows with a 3/4 horizontal fist type of punching attack occasionally used by Vitor Belfort in the past. Clearly a wing chun-influenced piece of fighting. There are moments in mma (or anywhere else) wherein this could be effective also.

And some simultaneous (or near simultaneous beat-and-one-half) attack and defense as well.

You're going to see these things, as time goes on.

[YungChun]

is the stuff we've yet to see in wing chun mma fighting that WILL WORK in an mma setting.

So once again, kudos to Alan and his guys for that they'vre been able to do so far, but I strongly believe that there's more to come from the wing chun world within mma fighting. What Alan's guys are doing is A version of wing chun - and Dale rightly says that it's mixed with boxing, wrestling, and MT style clinch fighting (and you can throw in BJJ too)...

but I believe that as time goes on we'll see wing chun guys also using pak, lop, bong, garn, etc. And punching patterns that closely resemble the vertical fist, elbows-held-down-and-in-close-to-the-sides-of-the-body that characterizes wing chun.

As well as the more elevated elbows with a 3/4 vertical fist type of punching attack occasionally used by Vitor Belfort in the past. Clearly a wing chun-influenced piece of fighting. There are moments in mma (or anywehere) that could be effective also.

And some simultaneous (or near simultaneous beat-and-one-half) attack and defense as well.

You're going to see these things, as time goes on.

I agree mostly with this..

IMO VT is about efficiency and economy and everyone sooner or later gets more efficient and wants to move in that direction.. If VT is worth anything we'll see more and more of what is and will look like VT.

[Knifefighter]

but I believe that as time goes on we'll see wing chun guys also using pak, lop, bong, garn, etc. And punching patterns that closely resemble the vertical fist, elbows-held-down-and-in-close-to-the-sides-of-the-body that characterizes wing chun.

As well as the more elevated elbows with a 3/4 vertical fist type of punching attack occasionally used by Vitor Belfort in the past. Clearly a wing chun-influenced piece of fighting. There are moments in mma (or anywhere else) wherein this could be effective also.

And some simultaneous (or near simultaneous beat-and-one-half) attack and defense as well.

You're going to see these things, as time goes on.

Maybe, but you sure won't see all those double hand strikes and backfists you see on the Mook Jong.

[Knifefighter]

I agree mostly with this..

IMO VT is about efficiency and economy and everyone sooner or later gets more efficient and wants to move in that direction.. If VT is worth anything we'll see more and more of what is and will look like VT.

Boxing and Muay Thai type striking are many times more efficient and economical.

And that's why you see the WC guys who are fighting full contact actually moving away from traditional WC techniques and more towards boxing and Muay Thai.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Look, there's no doubt that certain wing chun moves will fall by the wayside as time marches on, it happens with every martial art to one degree or another.

[YungChun]

Boxing and Muay Thai type striking are many times more efficient and economical.

And that's why you see the WC guys who are fighting full contact actually moving away from traditional WC techniques and more towards boxing and Muay Thai.

That's your story buster..

But time will tell.. Either we will see more VT or less VT... VT is way more efficient
when done correctly and IMO this will be reflected in it's performance in the future.

[Knifefighter]

but I believe that as time goes on we'll see wing chun guys also using pak, lop, bong, garn, bil, etc. And punching patterns that closely resemble the vertical fist, elbows-held-down-and-in-close-to-the-sides-of-the-body that characterizes wing chun.

As well as the more elevated elbows with a 3/4 horizontal fist type of punching attack occasionally used by Vitor Belfort in the past. Clearly a wing chun-influenced piece of fighting. There are moments in mma (or anywhere else) wherein this could be effective also.

I think you will actually see the opposite. The higher the level of competition and/or the more that grappling is involved, the less likely you will be to see those techs as a regular occurrence. What you will see is any WC guy who moves up the ranks into higher levels of competition being forced to move away from those techs and towards ones that are boxing/Muay Thai/clinch orientated.

[Knifefighter]

That's your story buster..

But time will tell.. Either we will see more VT or less VT... VT is way more efficient
when done correctly and IMO this will be reflected in it's performance in the future.

What's funny is that any of you so-called WC "experts" could easily prove the naysayers wrong. Simply train a group of guys and start entering them into MMA competitions.

Then, if you are right, you will have all the evidence you need.

Supposedly, you guys are the experts in WC, while T and I know nothing and Alan is not doing "real" WC.

So, prove us wrong.

Who's up for it?

[YungChun]

I think you will actually see the opposite. The higher the level of competition and/or the more that grappling is involved, the less likely you will be to see those techs as a regular occurrence. What you will see is any WC guy who moves up the ranks into higher levels of competition being forced to move away from those techs and towards ones that are boxing/Muay Thai/clinch orientated.

And yet....

You've said that you think VT is useful for keeping the grapplers away... If so then why would fighting grapplers make you adopt something that doesn't help you keep them away?

In reality VT and other SCMA actually address energy issuing and control as an aspect of standing impact fighting, a much more dynamic and interesting variation on fighting IMO..

The mainstream is getting tired of watching men roll around on the floor for minute after minute after minute..

Standing control and impacting with sudden devastating blows would make for much more exciting matches..

[sanjuro_ronin]

This has nothing to do with Robert's DVD guys.
At least the 2 vol I have seen don't mention anything about MMA.
I Have Alan's MMA and NHB dvd;s and they are great, Alan takes the principles of CSL WCK and adapts them to MMA.
Alan's guys do tend to use "typical" MMA techniques though, which makes sense since it is a MMA match.
Well WC change radically as it is exposed ore to MMA?
Yes, it probably will, just as it would change if it was being used in the boxing ring or in the MT ring.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think you will actually see the opposite. The higher the level of competition and/or the more that grappling is involved, the less likely you will be to see those techs as a regular occurrence. What you will see is any WC guy who moves up the ranks into higher levels of competition being forced to move away from those techs and towards ones that are boxing/Muay Thai/clinch orientated.

***AND I THINK you're only half right. Indeed, you will see, imo, "wing chun" guys in mma who use plenty of boxing/Muay Thai/clinch oriented stuff...and sure, those same guys will have to be schooled in wrestling/grappling.

But this will be in addition to, and not necessarily instead of, the things I mentioned in post#27.

From certain ranges they will look like boxers/kickboxers...at other ranges they will be looking like wing chun - as well as boxers throwing hooks and uppercuts from those ranges - and possibly a Thai clinch from there as well.

And things like pak, bil, and garn can be used from outside ranges also - not just from very close.

I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from "wing chun" guys.

[YungChun]

What's funny is that any of you so-called WC "experts" could easily prove the naysayers wrong. Simply train a group of guys and start entering them into MMA competitions.

Then, if you are right, you will have all the evidence you need.

Supposedly, you guys are the experts in WC, while T and I know nothing and Alan is not doing "real" WC.

So, prove us wrong.

Who's up for it?

I'd love the chance.. I have no school.. And of course there is the problem of finding anyone who wants to do this... 99.999% of those few who want to fight automatically assume they have to do what you do (MT, BJJ, WB)...because of folks who think your way... The most recent evidence being the thread where the VT guy was not testing in his fighting ability, but rather testing in training MT...

With so few who do VT who want to fight and people building walls to stop them, well hey you do the math..

[Knifefighter]

And yet....

You've said that you think VT is useful for keeping the grapplers away... If so then why would fighting grapplers make you adopt something that doesn't help you keep them away?

Because in MMA, you have to fight. You can't spend the whole match keeping someone away and running away from him. You have to be able to do damage.



Standing control and impacting with sudden devastating blows would make for much more exciting matches..

The problem with that is that's exactly when you are opened up to being taken down and having to "roll around on the floor for minute after minute after minute."

[sanjuro_ronin]

I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from "wing chun" guys.

I disagree Vic, if we haven't seen it up to now, I don't see why we will see it in the future.
People would have to get "pushed" into it and once they begin to see who much they have to "change" and then it is no longer "WC", you'll see WC people either NOT doing it or stop being "WC people".

[YungChun]

This has nothing to do with Robert's DVD guys.
At least the 2 vol I have seen don't mention anything about MMA.
I Have Alan's MMA and NHB dvd;s and they are great, Alan takes the principles of CSL WCK and adapts them to MMA.
Alan's guys do tend to use "typical" MMA techniques though, which makes sense since it is a MMA match.
Well WC change radically as it is exposed ore to MMA?
Yes, it probably will, just as it would change if it was being used in the boxing ring or in the MT ring.

If it changes too much it is no longer VT..

If change means FOCUSING on a reduced technique set and on key attributes for MMA then great..

I think most who get what VT is all about know very well that well trained VT married with BJJ and a little salt and pepper (and of course the right fighter) can make for a fantastic combination of skills.

[Knifefighter]

***AND I THINK you're only half right. Indeed, you will see, imo, "wing chun" guys in mma who use plenty of boxing/Muay Thai/clinch oriented stuff...and sure, those same guys will have to be schooled in wrestling/grappling.

But this will be in addition to, and not necessarily instead of, the things I mentioned in post#27.

From certain ranges they will look like boxers/kickboxers...at other ranges they will be looking like wing chun - as well as boxers throwing hooks and uppercuts from those ranges - and possibly a Thai clinch from there as well.

And things like pak, bil, and garn can be used from outside ranges also - not just from very close.

I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from "wing chun" guys.

You are wrong. But go ahead and feel free to prove differently with a group of guys you train to fight MMA.

Supposedly you are one of the self-proclaimed WC "experts", so go ahead, get started on this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only way to keep a MMA fight standing is when BOTH fighters don't wanna take it down, or the better fighter wants to keep it standing or the striker has REALLY GOOD KO power and defense and makes the grappler pay every time he clinches.

[YungChun]

Because in MMA, you have to fight. You can't spend the whole match keeping someone away and running away from him. You have to be able to do damage.


Well if it's good at "keeping them off you" as in Rashun and you.. You have to add in the actual impact of the strikes.. See how that works?

VT doesn't run away. The main idea of VT is to project energy into the opponent, intended to do damage and take his base away in order to stall his attempt to go offensive..

I think we are seeing more, not less VT in MMA and other venues.. Give it time and we will see what happens.. No need to guess.

[Knifefighter]

I'd love the chance.. I have no school.. And of course there is the problem of finding anyone who wants to do this... 99.999% of those few who want to fight automatically assume they have to do what you do (MT, BJJ, WB)...because of folks who think your way... The most recent evidence being the thread where the VT guy was not testing in his fighting ability, but rather testing in training MT...

With so few who do VT who want to fight and people building walls to stop them, well hey you do the math..

Really? Do know where the Dog Bros started? In someone's backyard. Do you know how many people were interested in this in the beginning? About 6 or 7. Do you know how BJJ started in the states? In a garage with about 9 people who were actually interested, while everyone else thought it was stupid.

If something is actually good and workable, number of people or location doesn't matter. Result easily speak for themselves.

[Knifefighter]

Well if it's good at "keeping them off you" as in Rashun and you.. You have to add in the actual impact of the strikes.. See how that works?

VT doesn't run away. The main idea of VT is to project energy into the opponent, intended to do damage and take his base away in order to stall his attempt to go offensive..

I think we are seeing more, not less VT in MMA and other venues.. Give it time and we will see what happens.. No need to guess.

It doesn't work anymore when you try to add in full contact strikes. Now you get taken down.

[YungChun]

Really? Do know where the Dog Bros started? In someone's backyard. Do you know how many people were interested in this in the beginning? About 6 or 7. Do you know how BJJ started in the states? In a garage with about 9 people who were actually interested, while everyone else thought it was stupid.

If something is actually good and workable, number of people or location doesn't matter. Result easily speak for themselves.

C'mon Dale..

Even big name teachers have precious few students (if any) who want to train hard core or compete in MMA...

I am a nobody and have enough trouble finding people to train with at all, let alone train for MMA..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well if it's good at "keeping them off you" as in Rashun and you.. You have to add in the actual impact of the strikes.. See how that works?

VT doesn't run away. The main idea of VT is to project energy into the opponent, intended to do damage and take his base away in order to stall his attempt to go offensive..

I think we are seeing more, not less VT in MMA and other venues.. Give it time and we will see what happens.. No need to guess.

You guys keep bringing up Rashun and you really shouldn't.
To guys being cool with each other and helping each other in a park does NOT make for an "example" of anything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

C'mon Dale..

Even big name teachers have precious few students (if any) who want to train hard core or compete in MMA...

I am a nobody and have enough trouble finding people to train with at all, let alone train for MMA..

I run through partners faster than Tiger Woods !!
:D

[YungChun]

You guys keep bringing up Rashun and you really shouldn't.
To guys being cool with each other and helping each other in a park does NOT make for an "example" of anything.

I only mention it in the context Dale has...(keeping him off, etc)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I only mention it in the context Dale has...(keeping him off, etc)

Playful play has no context.

Fact is, and this has nothing to do with Dale or Rashun, adding FULL power strikes into the mix changes a lot, just like adding take downs does.

The key to striking in MMA is either:
Striking to keep opponent busy and set up the TD.
Striking to KO the MOFU.
One thing that WC guys are NOT know for is KO power.
Fast hands and sticking, yes, KO power, not so much.

When you think of MA and think of KO power or knock down fighting, does WC pop into your head?

[YungChun]

Playful play has no context.

Fact is, and this has nothing to do with Dale or Rashun, adding FULL power strikes into the mix changes a lot, just like adding take downs does.


It's an example Dale has used..

I never refer to it as proof of anything.



The key to striking in MMA is either:
Striking to keep opponent busy and set up the TD.
Striking to KO the MOFU.


Striking is striking.. VT striking is intended for the above as well as to break structure.



One thing that WC guys are NOT know for is KO power.
Fast hands and sticking, yes, KO power, not so much.

VT is known for suking azz...

That's not what it was intended for however..

Crazy egg beaters and reaching for hands may well be what VT is known for.. However I would never do that or teach that.



When you think of MA and think of KO power or knock down fighting, does WC pop into your head?
Good VT has powerful striking.... Bad VT has all kinds of things in it that I would prefer to forget.

I have said before, that if I had a school I would use the Kyokushin knockdown match (modified with headshots) as a standard. If everyone did that then VT WOULD be known for it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's an example Dale has used..

I never refer to it as proof of anything.



Striking is striking.. VT striking is intended for the above as well as to break structure.


VT is known for suking azz...

That's not what it was intended for however..

Crazy egg beaters and reaching for hands may well be what VT is known for.. However I would never do that or teach that.


Good VT has powerful striking.... Bad VT has all kinds of things in it that I would prefer to forget.

But we can't forget it, can we Jim?
Nope.
When I first started WC. Nelson Chan said that power was something I didn't have to worry about, I already had that form Boxing and Karate, which put me ahead of most WC guys.
He was right, even when changing to a short hand system, the learning curve was almost nil because the power helped.
I also have short stubby arms :D

But we know that Power is NOT something WC is know for.

[YungChun]

But we know that Power is NOT something WC is know for.


It's not known for lots of things.. What's the point?

As I said, if you train to use KO power you will have power.. IE training the Kyokushin way with VT..

Most folks don't know how to use the VT mechanics to make power. I came from Karate so you know what I mean...

It's not that VT doesn't have these things.. It's that those who are representing the art don't or very few do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not known for lots of things.. What's the point?

The point is that it SHOULD be.
Not every one in MT is a KO artist, or in boxing or in kyokushin, far from that, but no one every accuse those systems of NOT developing powerful strikers and there is proof of that.

[Vajramusti]

But we know that Power is NOT something WC is know for.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends- who what where and when.

joy chaudhuri

[YungChun]

The point is that it SHOULD be.
Not every one in MT is a KO artist, or in boxing or in kyokushin, far from that, but no one every accuse those systems of NOT developing powerful strikers and there is proof of that.

I agree, but there's no such thing as should.. There is only what is and what is not.. :)

It makes me laugh--the idea that VT doesn't have power.. The mechanics are there if only folks would use them... But they have the Crazy Eggbeater in their heads.. The teachers can't find their azz with both hands.. Etc, etc......

All anyone needs are some VT basics... Then go fight... If the center of the training was based on let's say, power and results then BANG! you have an entirely new face (the old face) of VT..

If I had lots of money I might try to finance such as school, but I don't...:p:(

[sanjuro_ronin]

Joy and Jim, I agree, it depends of who is doing the WC, of course.
But since we are speaking in generalizations about other systems, we can do that about WC too.
And gym, I also agree that the WC of the past did have a lot more power, probably because they fought more and did less demos showing off the speed of their chain punches.

[YungChun]

Joy and Jim, I agree, it depends of who is doing the WC, of course.
But since we are speaking in generalizations about other systems, we can do that about WC too.
And gym, I also agree that the WC of the past did have a lot more power, probably because they fought more and did less demos showing off the speed of their chain punches.

It comes down to what "effective" means...

When it means $$$$ instead of KOs then you get what you asked for.

Then there is the problem of finding the way back..........

[SAAMAG]

Joy and Jim, I agree, it depends of who is doing the WC, of course.
But since we are speaking in generalizations about other systems, we can do that about WC too.
And gym, I also agree that the WC of the past did have a lot more power, probably because they fought more and did less demos showing off the speed of their chain punches.

I agree that my MT feels more powerful than my wing chun in some ways (like my cross versus the chung choi). But then it's a different type of power. Like Terence stated before the knight's lance analogy, or Robert's nail and hammer one, then there's Leung's ball and chain/rope as well.

I pretty much punch using whipping power in all forms. Nothing is ever tensed and is done loosely until impact. Scott says it should be done loosely even upon impact and then driven through to release the energy inside the target. Different strokes for different folks.

[YungChun]

or Robert's nail and hammer one


I believe this is from the faat... (twitch) ;):D

[Knifefighter]

It makes me laugh--the idea that VT doesn't have power.. The mechanics are there if only folks would use them... But they have the Crazy Eggbeater in their heads.. The teachers can't find their azz with both hands.. Etc, etc......

Which is exactly what the Mook Jong reinforces... crazy eggbeater with no power.

[SAAMAG]

Which is exactly what the Mook Jong reinforces... crazy eggbeater with no power.

Wrong thread buddy. That's the other one!

And no...it doesn't teach that. The intent of the dummy (as you'd see in the other thread) is not to hit it as fast as possible, or as hard as possible, but to practice the movements focusing on energy projection, full body structure and usage, and the like.

It has nothing to do with linking punches (with no body behind it).

[Knifefighter]

C'mon Dale..

Even big name teachers have precious few students (if any) who want to train hard core or compete in MMA...

I am a nobody and have enough trouble finding people to train with at all, let alone train for MMA..

Are you kidding? Kids who want fight MMA are a dime a dozen these days.

[Knifefighter]

Wrong thread buddy. That's the other one!

And no...it doesn't teach that. The intent of the dummy (as you'd see in the other thread) is not to hit it as fast as possible, or as hard as possible, but to practice the movements focusing on energy projection, full body structure and usage, and the like.

It has nothing to do with linking punches (with no body behind it).

That may be the intent, but the actuality is different.

[YungChun]

Are you kidding? Kids who want fight MMA are a dime a dozen these days.

WTF are you talking about Dale..? You are getting rather shrill.

So this "logic" is supposed to mean that I can simply walk out on the street and find droves of folks that want me to train them in VT MMA..???? Riiiiiight!

Take a Xanax and get back to reality...

[YungChun]

Which is exactly what the Mook Jong reinforces... crazy eggbeater with no power.

Right so an inanimate object (not teachers) is somehow responsible for making folks use bad mechanics...when it is quite possible to use correct mechanics on the bloody thing..

That's like saying a heavy bag dictates how you hit it, with what mechanics and tools..

Eggbeater mechanics are arm punches, without body connection and connected mass and power... There is nothing stopping anyone from using body power on the dummy, which is what you are supposed to use.

[Knifefighter]

WTF are you talking about Dale..? You are getting rather shrill.

So this "logic" is supposed to mean that I can simply walk out on the street and find droves of folks that want me to train them in VT MMA..???? Riiiiiight!

Take a Xanax and get back to reality...

Supposedly you train, right? If you train, you should have a network of martial arts friends, acquaintances and sparring buddies. Go through that network and it should be pretty easy to find people who want to do this.

And then there's Victor. He's got a school already. Why he doesn't have his people out there testing his ideas is beyond me.

[Knifefighter]

Right so an inanimate object (not teachers) is somehow responsible for making folks use bad mechanics...when it is quite possible to use correct mechanics on the bloody thing..

Theoretically it is possible, but not using the WC forms that are taught on it.

[YungChun]

The intent of the dummy (as you'd see in the other thread) is not to hit it as fast as possible, or as hard as possible, but to practice the movements focusing on energy projection, full body structure and usage, and the like.


Exactly correct.

Nothing to stop you from hitting it hard too though..

[YungChun]

Theoretically it is possible, but not using the WC forms that are taught on it.

So it seems Dale doesn't think that VT mechanics can generate power........

[YungChun]

Supposedly you train, right? If you train, you should have a network of martial arts friends, acquaintances and sparring buddies. Go through that network and it should be pretty easy to find people who want to do this.

And then there's Victor. He's got a school already. Why he doesn't have his people out there testing his ideas is beyond me.

It is extremely hard to find folks to train with... Apparently Paul sees this.. (let alone budding UFC candidates, which even the big name teachers don't have)

I even put an ad on the flippin net to find more..

I am hoping to join a BJJ school later this year, IME when you're in a school it's much easier to find training partners..

Plans to take over the world with VT will have to wait...

[Knifefighter]

So it seems Dale doesn't think that VT mechanics can generate power........

Not compared to boxing and MT.... which is exactly why you see the WC guys who are competing using strikes that you have described as "not WC."

[YungChun]

Not compared to boxing and MT.... which is exactly why you see the WC guys who are competing using strikes that you have described as "not WC."

Right and I wouldn't agree at all... It's simply that you haven't been taught or haven't seen good VT mechanics IMO.

There is more than one kind of VT strike, not all are the same power.. Nevertheless, they can generate lots of power when done correctly..

Again, it's the crazy eggbeaters that folks associate with VT striking.

[Knifefighter]

Right and I wouldn't agree at all... It's simply that you haven't been taught or haven't seen good VT mechanics IMO.

There is more than one kind of VT strike, not all are the same power.. Nevertheless, they can generate lots of power when done correctly..

Again, it's the crazy eggbeaters that folks associate with VT striking.

Um.. where are they?

And how would you know? By your own admission, you can't even find someone to do some training with.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Right and I wouldn't agree at all... It's simply that you haven't been taught or haven't seen good VT mechanics IMO.

There is more than one kind of VT strike, not all are the same power.. Nevertheless, they can generate lots of power when done correctly..

Again, it's the crazy eggbeaters that folks associate with VT striking.
I think that some people just drink the MMA Koolaid, or are so afraid of looking different that that they don't go out and do it how they know to do it.

[YungChun]

Um.. where are they?

And how would you know? By your own admission, you can't even find someone to do some training with.

Right so if I can't find anyone to hit right now then of course I have no idea what good mechanics are...

More good thinking from mini-troll..

How about you come over, I'll hit you and then you can tell me if it had power.. :)

[Knifefighter]

How about you come over, I'll hit you and then you can tell me if it had power.. :)

Or even better, since we are on different coasts, why don't you jump into a full-contact match and see how well your power generation works, since you are one of the WC "experts" who seems to be putting down the other WC people as not doing "real" WC in their matches.

How about it?

[YungChun]

Or even better, since we are on different coasts, why don't you jump into a full-contact match and see how well your power generation works, since you are one of the WC "experts" who seems to be putting down the other WC people as not doing "real" WC in their matches.

How about it?

Ahhh so now I have run out and do a full contact match to validate the existence of VT power mechanics for lil old Dale.....

Should I do a little singing and dancing for you too?

Coming right up.... :cool:

But I know you travel so when you're in town let me know and remember it's about power so be sure and stay nice and still for me, so you can absorb all that non power.. k? (for purposes of measurement) :D

[Knifefighter]

Ahhh so now I have run out and do a full contact match to validate the existence of VT power mechanics for lil old Dale.....

Should I do a little singing and dancing for you too?

Coming right up.... :cool:

But I know you travel so when you're in town let me know and remember it's about power so be sure and stay nice and still for me, so you can absorb all that non power.. k? (for purposes of measurement) :D

Nope, it's all about power against someone who is trying to hurt you badly. Anyone can create power against an immobile object. But I wouldn't expect a someone who doesn't even train to understand that.

I also understand your theoretical non-fighter need to put down the people who are actually doing it by claiming they aren't doing "real" WC... but you can, although you don't even train.

[YungChun]

Nope, it's all about power against someone who is trying to hurt you badly. Anyone can create power against an immobile object. But I wouldn't expect a someone who doesn't even train to understand that.

Right I've never trained.. I just read books...and watch action movies.. :D

The mechanics are the mechanics, regardless of style, power is measured by striking something... The ability to fight and deliver power is not the same thing as the ability of a mechanic and person to simply make that power..

Not everyone can generate great power with or without a partner regardless of style...

[YungChun]

I also understand your theoretical non-fighter need to put down the people who are actually doing it by claiming they aren't doing "real" WC...


I have not put anyone down.. I can simply see what is and what is not VT.. One does not need to be superman to know what boxing is, or what VT is..

Clearly you can't understand such simple concepts because you are a simple minded troll.. :D

Now I'll leave you to your childish jibes, insults and trolling...

[Knifefighter]

I have not put anyone down.. I can simply see what is and what is not VT.. One does not need to be superman to know what boxing is, or what VT is..

Clearly you can't understand such simple concepts because you are a simple minded troll.. :D

Now I'll leave you to your childish jibes, insults and trolling...

Simple minded would be wanting people to believe what you are saying when there is no evidence to support it.

[SAAMAG]

Well to be fair, you can use wing chun strategy with any technique. Doesn't matter if you hit with chung choi or a lead straight or a rear cross. The way it is applied can be wing chun in strategy and tactics. Though I also agree that the style would mean the use of wing chun identifiers like tan, bong, chou choi, chung choi, and etc.

[Ultimatewingchun]

When I moved my school from Manhattan to Brooklyn 8.5 years ago, enrollment decreased dramatically due to geography. In Manhattan I had students coming from all 5 boroughs of New York, as well as guys from New Jersey and from Westchester who worked in Manhattan.

Always carried at least 20-25 students, and sometimes as many as 35-40.

Over the past 8.5 years it's been more like 6-7-8 people coming regularly.

But the truth is...I wanted it that way - so that I could spend a significant amount of time learning wrestling and boxing.

Which would have been impossible with the bigger enrollment, and given the fact that I also work a full time job in the business world, and have a house, a wife, and up until 2.5 years ago when she passed - an elderly mother to take care of and spend time with.

And then there's the TWC politics of what I've been up to - since there are some people who really don't appreciate the crosstraining that I've been doing and advocating.

So now that I'm looking to go back to Manhattan, I plan to continue the relatively low profile that I've cultivated in recent years within the TWC world - and only want to work with about a dozen students or so.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from 'wing chun' guys." (Things like bong, pak, lop, garn, bil, lan, near simultaneous beat and one half attack & defense, vertical fist punches with the elbows down and in close to the sides, the Vitor Belfort variation on the same, etc.) -Ultimatewingchun



I disagree Vic, if we haven't seen it up to now, I don't see why we will see it in the future.
People would have to get "pushed" into it and once they begin to see who much they have to "change" and then it is no longer "WC", you'll see WC people either NOT doing it or stop being "WC people".

***WOULD LIKE TO answer Paul's post, and also talk about power generation - since this has become a hot topic on recent threads as well.

Let me put it this way:

I think ANOTHER version of wing chun that will make it into mma fighting (already called Alan Orr's style A version)...okay...another version of wing chun will be something similar to JKD - although I strongly hesitate to call it by that name, since I think that this will have a more decidedly wing chun look and feel to it once in close quarters (and at times from long range) than JKD.

But that said, and acknowledging up front that there will be a boxing, MT/clinch fighting and wrestling/grappling aspect as well...

I think that Bruce Lee's idea about power side forward - along with fighting out of a 50/50 weight front stance - and with a pronounced boxing type footwork with lots of spring coming off the back foot (and with some adjustments in such footwork for the purposes of kicking)...

while using the rear hand to occupy and guard the centerline/central line - that is...when not throwing punches with the rear hand, you're using it to parry, block, redirect, pak, lop, bil, etc...

and the lead hand - but as said coming from your power side will be the key offensive striking weapon - and one that will be using various BOXING type punches, ie.- jabs, stiff leads, round punches, hooks, overhands, uppercuts..

(not that the rear hand won't be used in this way also - along with big rear crosses - and not to say that combinations with both hands won't be thrown - because they will be).

In addition, both the lead and the rear hand can easily be (and will be) turned into wing chun vertical and 3/4 horizontal punching - and yes, at times in a straight blast chain punch fashion at certain ranges and moments.

Furthermore, in what I'm going to call the "possible clinch zone" you'll see some chi sao and WD type moves being used to strike, control, pressure, and yes...stop the guy form grabbing you...ALONG WITH...MT clinch fighting and..out-and-out wrestling/grappling when either appropriate or unavoidable, ie.- pummeling for underhooks, overhooks, w h i z z e r s, etc....

shoots, sweeps, and takedowns, and so on.

[YungChun]

Simple minded would be wanting people to believe what you are saying when there is no evidence to support it.

But there is evidence and logic in VT mechanics..

According to what Alan teaches--he uses these very mechanics.. He espouses that the VT 'full body structure' is superior to modern boxing mechanics because VT structure remains between your opponent and yourself (clinch defense), while incorporating full body power (and ground connection) into all strikes.

[Knifefighter]

But there is evidence and logic in VT mechanics..

According to what Alan teaches--he uses these very mechanics.. He espouses that the VT 'full body structure' is superior to modern boxing mechanics because VT structure remains between your opponent and yourself (clinch defense), while incorporating full body power (and ground connection) into all strikes.

OK, then is he using WC or not? Can't have it both ways.

[YungChun]

OK, then is he using WC or not? Can't have it both ways.

I haven't seen him fight..

I have seen some of what he teaches and I agree that a good deal of that is VT..

On the other hand who cares what I think, the bottom line is that it makes sense, does follow the art and does not agree with your stated (and re-stated) position.

[Knifefighter]

I haven't seen him fight..

I have seen some of what he teaches and I agree that a good deal of that is VT..

On the other hand who cares what I think, the bottom line is that it makes sense, does follow the art and does not agree with your stated (and re-stated) position.

I already said he (and his students) is using his WC to fight. Weren't you one of the people who said he wasn't?

[YungChun]

I already said he (and his students) is using his WC to fight. Weren't you one of the people who said he wasn't?

What I said was that clinching, and a guillotine is not VT.....not part of a "hidden movement" (as suggested) in BiuJee, etc, no that's not VT..

The VT aspects, (striking/standup) in that environment seem very fleeting in most cases, esp when folks want to clinch.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What I said was that clinching, and a guillotine is not VT.....not part of a "hidden movement" (as suggested) in BiuJee, etc, no that's not VT..

The VT aspects, (striking/standup) in that environment seem very fleeting in most cases, esp when folks want to clinch.

***WHICH is probably why Niehoff has decided that wing chun "is attached fighting".

Not saying that good clinch work is unnecessary or bad policy (I believe in mma concepts of standup/clinch/ground)...

but to make the claim that just coming in for strikes or for a clinch is the only way to make wing chun work in an mma setting is bull.

There's a lot more to wing chun that can be used than just punching while pressuring forward for a clinch.

And Niehoff doesn't get this because he doesn't know anything else about wing chun that can work in an nhb mma setting.

As I've said several times now: What Alan and his guys are doing is A version of wing chun. Fine. Not a problem. And so far it seems to be working for them.

But it's not the only version that can be effective.

[YungChun]

I wish I was a cartoonist..

I just got a visual of T applying his attachment of a VT single necktie on some giant MMA guy..

The behemoth shakes like a wet dog and flings T around like a rag doll (barely hanging on for dear life) as T delivers repeated ineffective blows to the giant.. Finally irritated the behemoth flicks him off and T goes flying across the room...........yelling "See I had him going there for a minute..!" LOL

[SAAMAG]

Ya know fellas, as a side note and all, this thread WAS supposed to be about Robert's DVD and each person's views on it.

You know...for those that bought and have watched it? :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's amazing how just about everything (and now, everyone) connected to Terence Niehoff winds up in some form of "hijack" situation, isn't it?

You have ANY idea how many threads about topic A through the years have been hijacked by Niehoff and turned into topic B,C, or D ???

I'm guessing...not dozens, but hundreds.

Okay, Van...out of respect for you, since you've always come off as a good guy...I for one will take this conversation elsewhere.

[SAAMAG]

Eh...I was just making a joke after realizing how far off things went. We have three different threads all basically debating the same ol crap.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Welcome back to the forum, Van...

This last month or so has been fun, huh?! :eek: :D

[Frost]

Are you kidding? Kids who want fight MMA are a dime a dozen these days.

have to agree at the clubs i train they come in all the time, its got to the stage the coaches have to turn guys away not enough mat room

[Frost]

Well if it's good at "keeping them off you" as in Rashun and you.. You have to add in the actual impact of the strikes.. See how that works?

VT doesn't run away. The main idea of VT is to project energy into the opponent, intended to do damage and take his base away in order to stall his attempt to go offensive..

I think we are seeing more, not less VT in MMA and other venues.. Give it time and we will see what happens.. No need to guess.

give it time:confused: mma has been around in the states for close to 20years how much longer does VT need? come to think of it sanshou and full contact events in taiwan have been around even longer where were all the wing chun fighters in those events?

[Frost]

Right I've never trained.. I just read books...and watch action movies.. :D

The mechanics are the mechanics, regardless of style, power is measured by striking something... The ability to fight and deliver power is not the same thing as the ability of a mechanic and person to simply make that power..

Not everyone can generate great power with or without a partner regardless of style...

not really for a style to be useful its method of generating power must be able to stand up under pressure from another fighter...otherwise it is to all intents and purposes useless

[t_niehoff]

And Niehoff doesn't get this because he doesn't know anything else about wing chun that can work in an nhb mma setting.

As I've said several times now: What Alan and his guys are doing is A version of wing chun. Fine. Not a problem. And so far it seems to be working for them.

But it's not the only version that can be effective.

Tell me, Victor, what MMA gym do you train at or have you ever trained at? That's right -- none. NONE. So tell us all about your theories of WCK and MMA -- because that is all you have, theories.

Oh, sorry, I forgot, you lightly spar with your scrub students, guys you've trained (which explains why they are scrubs) -- folks you train in catch (that you "learn" via video) and boxing (something you've never trained in). Yet, you know.

You have not trained MMA, you have not really trained grappling, you have not trained boxing, and your WCK is beginner-level stuff that you can't make work in sparring, yet you know.

Good for you.