Proof that WC works vs. a real boxer

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay, finally....

what you've all been waiting for. I've been asking for a vid of this for the longest - and here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHrLMbBM_sc&feature=related

[Ultimatewingchun]

What do you guys think of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhQOIKW1nIg&feature=related

[Ultimatewingchun]

The boxer guy completely dominated the WT guy at longer ranges - to the point where the WT guy basically couldn't get anything done.

And then when the boxer turned WT guy - the other guy had no answers whatsoever for chain punch attacks (another issue entirely).

But I really enjoyed this vid because the bald guy was doing some of the very things I've come to believe in...

and if he had followed up the boxing with the WT/WC/VT/TWC (whatever) as one strategy folding into the other as the fight progresses (ie.- gaining close quarters with control - or doing some damage with the boxing and then finishing up on the inside with WC) - now you've really got something, imo.

[TenTigers]

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I liked the first clip better.....

[YungChun]

.
I liked the first clip better.....

I'll second that..

Although you could make the case that VT "won" since the "boxer" essentially did more VT than the VT guy..:o

Very little VT there in any case and those gloves don't help either.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What do you guys think of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhQOIKW1nIg&feature=related

I think that it was a little weird. The WC guy was kind of just boxing for a while then, he switched to uber traditional WC. In some ways, I think that it what we don't want to happen when we try to infuse boxing into WC. He goes from shucking and jiving to stiff as a board WC.

Overall, I think that it was reasonable demonstration of how one might employ WC striking in a boxing setting horrible disco music notwithstanding.

[Hardwork108]

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I liked the first clip better.....

I second that. :D

[Hardwork108]

The boxer guy completely dominated the WT guy at longer ranges - to the point where the WT guy basically couldn't get anything done.

And then when the boxer turned WT guy - the other guy had no answers whatsoever for chain punch attacks (another issue entirely).

But I really enjoyed this vid because the bald guy was doing some of the very things I've come to believe in...

and if he had followed up the boxing with the WT/WC/VT/TWC (whatever) as one strategy folding into the other as the fight progresses (ie.- gaining close quarters with control - or doing some damage with the boxing and then finishing up on the inside with WC) - now you've really got something, imo.

I don't think any of those guys were doing Wing Chun. The WC footwork was not there. Chain punching is not the ultimate weapon of Wing chun either. There are other kung fu styles that have techniques that deal specifically with a WC chain punch attack with devastating effectiveness.

Moral of the story? If you want to improve your WC through cross training, then cross train in other kung fu styles.:D

[Frost]

honestly i think the boxer in the first clip was just playing around and not taking it seriously :)
the second clip was a demo against someone who stood upright with his hands fairly low and his chin up, he looked like he had not sparred a day in his life, against that anything would have looked ok. the bald guy looked relaxed and move ok, but anyone can look like that in a light contact demo against a bad opponent

[YungChun]

honestly i think the boxer in the first clip was just playing around and not taking it seriously :)
the second clip was a demo against someone who stood upright with his hands fairly low and his chin up, he looked like he had not sparred a day in his life, against that anything would have looked ok. the bald guy looked relaxed and move ok, but anyone can look like that in a light contact demo against a bad opponent

Agreed..

Note the footwork, movement of the supposed VT guy.. He just follows and lets the guy lead him around like he's heel training him...
--------------------------------------
As far as the chain punches go.. I going to just say this... There is no such thing as "chain punching" in VT as I see it referred to there and elsewhere.. :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Agreed..

Note the footwork, movement of the supposed VT guy.. He just follows and lets the guy lead him around like he's heel training him...
--------------------------------------
As far as the chain punches go.. I going to just say this... There is no such thing as "chain punching" in VT as I see it referred to there and elsewhere.. :D

Do you mean the boxer?

[Ultimatewingchun]

The bald guy was a WT guy (they both were)...(Wing Tsun: Leung Ting/Boztepe)

Which is very much a move-straight-ahead version of "wing chun". Even more so that VT. (Ving Tsun - which will often use a bit more angling and cutting into the line than WT).

[YungChun]

Do you mean the boxer?

There was only one guy being "heel trained".. The one doing the training was clear, he was the one setting the pace of all movement.

Give me a steak and I could lead most dogs right off a cliff..

[Pacman]

What do you guys think of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhQOIKW1nIg&feature=related

the bald guy did better because he was more mobile and had a longer reach. this is enough to beat a guy who does not know how to move in (his opponent), however i dont see anything he did that is not part of a wing chun game (except for the bobbing and weaving)

[Ultimatewingchun]

If that were you in there against the bald guy (before he went into the straight blast chain punch mode)....

and you're using the WT/VT/WC/TWC/XYZ (pick one) version of the art that you've been trained in...

What would you have done differently than the WT guy who faced him?

And do you think that what you would have done - would have worked?

And if so, why?

[YungChun]

If that were you in there against the bald guy (before he went into the straight blast chain punch mode)....

and you're using the WT/VT/WC/TWC/XYZ (pick one) version of the art that you've been trained in...

What would you have done differently than the WT guy who faced him?

And do you think that what you would have done - would have worked?

And if so, why?

You can't say just "do this" ...

But you can say what not to do.. Just look at what man B we'll call him, was doing.. He's like Frankenstein, following the other guy around.. There is no problem in timing anyone who moves like that... It's like sending a card to family telling them when you'll be in town... LOL

What does man A do? He dances around and chooses when he wants to engage... While man B is helpless, like cheap metal drawn to the opponent's giant magnet..


As you mentioned, in a duel unlike street you have to use movement in a different way.. On the street they will normally just come at you...

But when dueling..with VT you want to be the one to choose the time to close.. To choose the start timing... To be in a certain place when the opponent thinks you're going to be somewhere else.. This is very much what guy A did.. But that's not the only way to do it.. There are an infinite number of ways to move and be unpredictable---what man B did is not among those..

IOW when on the outside you cannot be predictable..you have to be deceptive, erratic and have a strategy of motion and attacking...and "space management"..

[Pacman]

If that were you in there against the bald guy (before he went into the straight blast chain punch mode)....

and you're using the WT/VT/WC/TWC/XYZ (pick one) version of the art that you've been trained in...

What would you have done differently than the WT guy who faced him?

And do you think that what you would have done - would have worked?

And if so, why?

i cant say exactly what i would do, it really depends on each situation in the fight.

but in general if i have a reach disadvantage i would know that i need to move to the inside, which is what gray haired jones didn't do. he stayed on the outside. it didnt take much effort for baldy to slip a punch and throw one back. his longer arms kept gray hair back while he could land a few quick ones and then move away

second, the non bald guy didnt use a jab at all. he just runs straight into baldys attacks then throws some punches and then bobs and weaves and then throws some more.

actually baldy didnt really use a jab either. he just moved back, waited for gray haired jones to follow him and then threw punches with his longer arms and of course always landed a few. then he moved away and the cycle continued

its basically an open exchange so the advantage goes to the faster and the person with the longer reach. no one was using wing chun attached fighting skills i.e. sticky hands

but really, neither of them are using any wing chun long range tactics either. the kuen kuit loy lau hui sung doesnt mean you charge in, kamikaze, but it definitely does not mean that you both stand there, bob and weave and trade punches tit for tat.

again, if you do that then the advantage goes to the person with the reach and with the speed. there is nothing to offset it.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I prefer to defer to the expertise of TNiehoff or Dale Frank on the matter. Both have demonstrated exemplary knowledge concerning fight strategy.

[Frost]

If that were you in there against the bald guy (before he went into the straight blast chain punch mode)....

and you're using the WT/VT/WC/TWC/XYZ (pick one) version of the art that you've been trained in...

What would you have done differently than the WT guy who faced him?

And do you think that what you would have done - would have worked?

And if so, why?

maybe not a wing chun answer but i'd say cut the ring off close him down and get on the inside.....or just double leg him and take him down :)
no point hanging around on the outside with someone with a longer reach, and following him around is silly, use angles and the space to corner him and get in close

[Dragonzbane76]

so do they just pick random places to spar.... such as a Disco? IMO they both looked like they were playing around, at least the one guy that had a lot of movement seemed that way. More boxing than anything else and crappy boxing at that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

so do they just pick random places to spar.... such as a Disco? IMO they both looked like they were playing around, at least the one guy that had a lot of movement seemed that way. More boxing than anything else and crappy boxing at that.

It was hard for me to get passed the music and focus on the action. I had to turn the sound down. It was killing me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What do you guys think of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhQOIKW1nIg&feature=related

Well, the WC guy ( Bald guy) was a better boxer too !
He moves well, and chain punched well but the truth is, he was just much better than the other guy and was hitting him at will whether he was boxing or "chuning".

[Frost]

Well, the WC guy ( Bald guy) was a better boxer too !
He moves well, and chain punched well but the truth is, he was just much better than the other guy and was hitting him at will whether he was boxing or "chuning".

true its much easier to move well and be relaxed against someone much worse than you, especially in a demo and not a real fight

[m1k3]

Victor, to answer your question and you realize this is totally fantasy fu.

1. I would have staid where I was and not chased him. I would simply have pivoted to keep him in front of me.

2. If he stayed outside that would be fine with me as long as he's dancing he's not hitting.

3. Try to time when he is coming in, step into it and turn it into an inside game if I am limited to WC and striking. If I have my choice double leg him, sit on his chest and take it from there. Since its a demo probably nothing more than that.

Again this is a game of what if so who knows what would really happen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

true its much easier to move well and be relaxed against someone much worse than you, especially in a demo and not a real fight

For sure, ANY MA looks great when the skill level between fighters (or demo players) is nice and big.
Especially of the opponent is complacent.

[TenTigers]

Victor, to answer your question and you realize this is totally fantasy fu.

1. I would have staid where I was and not chased him. I would simply have pivoted to keep him in front of me.

2. If he stayed outside that would be fine with me as long as he's dancing he's not hitting.

3. Try to time when he is coming in, step into it and turn it into an inside game if I am limited to WC and striking. If I have my choice double leg him, sit on his chest and take it from there. Since its a demo probably nothing more than that.

Again this is a game of what if so who knows what would really happen.

hmm.. I think I would've tried to cut his "ring" off, zig-zag small step and shift as you slowly limit his dancing and take control of the game, then immediately close in and shut him down. Otherwise, you are fighting his fight.

[m1k3]

hmm.. I think I would've tried to cut his "ring" off, zig-zag small step and shift as you slowly limit his dancing and take control of the game, then immediately close in and shut him down. Otherwise, you are fighting his fight.

Actually, as long as he's outside and dancing around I'm not fighting any fight. Let him wear himself out no need for me to chase.

If he really wants to hit me he has to close the distance. I am a counter puncher by nature so even if he's faster my goal is to step in when he does while throwing a punch or two. Works against outside fighters even if they are faster. See Norton Vs Ali 1.

[Frost]

Actually, as long as he's outside and dancing around I'm not fighting any fight. Let him wear himself out no need for me to chase.

If he really wants to hit me he has to close the distance. I am a counter puncher by nature so even if he's faster my goal is to step in when he does while throwing a punch or two. Works against outside fighters even if they are faster. See Norton Vs Ali 1.

the problem is if starts hitting on the outside if he has longer reach and he can make it hard for you to get in close, you have to be quick enough to react cover and move in and he still has space behind to move awa from you.

if you are cutting the ring and walking him down its much easier to get in close and he has less room to manuvore...not saying your way won't work but limiting his ability to move and walking him down is a good way to go.

i never liked waiting for the opponent to make the first move, as one of my coaches once said playing catchup is losing slowly

[sanjuro_ronin]

i never liked waiting for the opponent to make the first move, as one of my coaches once said playing catchup is losing slowly

Here, here.
I was and still am a "bit" of a counter puncher at heart, but my counter hitting usually involves hitting "at the same time" the opponent ( any part of him) cross over into my "circle of pain".
:D

[Frost]

Here, here.
I was and still am a "bit" of a counter puncher at heart, but my counter hitting usually involves hitting "at the same time" the opponent ( any part of him) cross over into my "circle of pain".
:D

same here i like to counter punch too, but ill draw him into something or close the distance to make him react, sometimes of course he reacts quicker than i expected and i wish i didn;t do this but hey thats sparring and what gumshields are for

[m1k3]

Yeah, but this is playing a pure striking game. My first choice would be to wait. let him in and shoot for the double leg. One other thing I would NOT be standing there with my hands down like he did. Again this is all conjecture.

[HumbleWCGuy]

There are lots of things that the shorter guy could do.


If he wants to pressure fight:

-start kicking while moving his head by leaning away or curling
-leg kick to settle that dancing down
-Use the front kick
-Use jumping techniques to close
-fake the high jab and go to the body
-once you have conditioned him to stop the body jab start faking it and go high
-for the love of god throw combinations
-focus more on side to side movement to cut of the disco rather than moving straight forward which allows the opponent an out
-Get super physical on the inside. push the opponent into the walls, step on his feet
-Throw overhand.
-Use kickboxing clinch
-Time the jab and land a body cross or hook to the solar plexus (a heun sao variant)
-Any slipping would have been nice

[HumbleWCGuy]

Although, if I were that boxer, the first thing that I would do is develop a credible punch. If you can't hurt a guy with your strikes, nothing you do really matters.

[TenTigers]

"-for the love of god throw condemnations"


yes. By all means.
Insult his mother, laugh at his clothes, and ridicule his Gods.
Tell him his WC is the wrong version!
-if he's Jewish, always play the guilt card!

Cause him grief and shame.
Break him down emotionally.
Then, when he is an emotional wreck, a quivering mass of jelly, YOU STRIKE!:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL, I was correcting that as you were commenting. But hey, if you are going to get beaten like you stole some candy, you might as well talk smack on the way down.

[Wayfaring]

I like that we can actually enjoy a sense of humor on this forum in between arguing over lineage and application.

[TenTigers]

hey, psychological warefare works~!
Look at him disdainfully and say,"Yo, nice shoes, ***g0t!"
and when he whines and says, ""quit it!"
ya nail him in the yarbles!

[TenTigers]

I like that we can actually enjoy a sense of humor on this forum in between arguing over lineage and application.
these forums are a great way to meet friends, exchange information, bounce ideas off of each other and grow. Some people just take their sheit way too seriously.
Just let it go. We have so much to offer each other.

[Liddel]

With all the hype and popularity of UFC (there isnt one matial artist here who hasnt heard of it) we should all know better....

Never box a boxer. Not even a chi sau clinch. Own and work your range.

Furthermore one can only assume that kicks were not allowed.. VT has kicks dude in vid, use em to land punches at the very least. The first vid was more entertaining for me.

DREW

[HumbleWCGuy]

Never box a boxer. Not even a chi sau clinch. Own and work your range.



IMO, that's kind of the rub with WC right now. WC is transitioning from the old to the modern. People are trying to infuse boxing and kickboxing into it and if they aren't careful, they loose what gives WC its character or advantage.

[m1k3]

All the advice about cutting off the ring and moving in on him to close the range makes perfect sense except for 1 thing. i am 56 years old. i don't chase anything. If it doesn't come to me screw it, I didn't really want it anyway. :)

[Frost]

All the advice about cutting off the ring and moving in on him to close the range makes perfect sense except for 1 thing. i am 56 years old. i don't chase anything. If it doesn't come to me screw it, I didn't really want it anyway. :)

walking someone down is a slow process and totally different from running after him like the guy in the clip did so don't worry even old people can do it :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

Unless someone is a true "butterfly" they typically get worn down trying to be one. Also, an advantage of kung fu training is that we have more footwork at our disposal to catch people. Boxing just has footwork for the ring. Our footwork can allow us to cut off a gymnasium if need be.

[m1k3]

walking someone down is a slow process and totally different from running after him like the guy in the clip did so don't worry even old people can do it :)

Sorry, its a matter of principal. I might get out of my rocking chair but I won't chase you down. :p

[CFT]

Boxing just has footwork for the ring. Our footwork can allow us to cut off a gymnasium if need be.What? Sorry but that just sounds plain wrong.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What? Sorry but that just sounds plain wrong.

Think weapon's footwork. If you don't agree, then I suggest that yo try adapting what you do with weapons to your empty hand fighting. It will allow you to cover greater distances with less effort than you would just shuffling. If you have good "weapon's" footwork, you are used to essentially, "walking" and striking with power. It allows you to cover much, much more ground to corral an opponent. It is something that just isn't practiced in boxing, not to say that a boxer could not do such a thing. Being a good perimeter defender in basketball has similar footwork as well.

My system of WC is very footwork oriented. Maybe you have a different experience?

[m1k3]

Think weapons footwork. If you don't agree, then I suggest that yo try adapting what you do with weapons to your empty hand fighting. It will allow you to cover greater distances with less effort than you would just shuffling.

My system of WC is very footwork oriented. Maybe you have a different experience?

Could you explain a little further? My weapons training was bayonet and knife in the Marine Corps and the footwork was very much based on boxing footwork.

[TenTigers]

very simply put,"A circle beats a traight line and a straight line beats a circle."
cutting off the ring doesn't require much else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just remember the old boxing adage:
It's really hard to cut off the ring when someone is punching you in the face.

[TenTigers]

nonsense! Once they start slipping and sliding in my blood, their footwork is useless against me!

[sanjuro_ronin]

nonsense! Once they start slipping and sliding in my blood, their footwork is useless against me!

Ah, the old "use my blood to wear them down" routine !
Excellent !

[HumbleWCGuy]

The other part is staying close to your opponent. When you spar outside or in a gymnasium it is more difficult if you are facing faster opponent. They will just continue to separate and run around you. I will post some videos later.

[Frost]

Unless someone is a true "butterfly" they typically get worn down trying to be one. Also, an advantage of kung fu training is that we have more footwork at our disposal to catch people. Boxing just has footwork for the ring. Our footwork can allow us to cut off a gymnasium if need be.

sorry but this is wrong, cutting the distance in the ring, cage or street amounts to the same thing.

To do it effectivally you need something behind the opponent so he can't move backwards, otherwise you can't walk him down doesn't matter if you shuffle, jump or dart forward he can still get away. the whole idea is to walk him down to corner him between you and a sloid immovable object, be it the cage, ropes or a wall

[Frost]

Just remember the old boxing adage:
It's really hard to cut off the ring when someone is punching you in the face.

thats where the other old boxing adage comes in...keep your f*cking hands up and your chin down!

[HumbleWCGuy]

sorry but this is wrong, cutting the distance in the ring, cage or street amounts to the same thing.

To do it effectivally you need something behind the opponent so he can't move backwards, otherwise you can't walk him down doesn't matter if you shuffle, jump or dart forward he can still get away. the whole idea is to walk him down to corner him between you and a sloid immovable object, be it the cage, ropes or a wall

I never said that it didn't amount to the same thing in principle. Its just that boxers don't typically employ as many footwork options as kung fu practitioners. When you are cutting off an opponent staying close is much more important in a large area. In a ring, they can only go so far.

[sanjuro_ronin]

thats where the other old boxing adage comes in...keep your f*cking hands up and your chin down!

And then the other one:
Everyone has a plan, until they get hit.

[m1k3]

thats where the other old boxing adage comes in...keep your f*cking hands up and your chin down!

Also, move your f*cking head, were you born stupid!

[Frost]

I never said that it didn't amount to the same thing in principle. Its just that boxers don't typically employ as many footwork options as kung fu practitioners. When you are cutting off an opponent staying close is much more important in a large area. In a ring, they can only go so far.

sorry but i don't see the point big or small area the tactic and end result is the same: walk him down cut the angle get him between you and something hard and unmoving and then keep him there.

I can't see how shuffling or faster different footwork can make a difference, i thought the whole idea of walking someone down was to take away his ability to move around you, hence side to dise forward movement, wouldn't darting in or moving forward in a straight lne allow him to move around you?

As for staying close well i thought the whole reason you were walking him down was because he kept moving away and you couldn't stay close to him, if you are that close do you need to walk him down?

[Frost]

And then the other one:
Everyone has a plan, until they get hit.

lol so true:)

[Frost]

Also, move your f*cking head, were you born stupid!

did you have the same coach as me:eek:

[Knifefighter]

Think weapon's footwork. If you don't agree, then I suggest that yo try adapting what you do with weapons to your empty hand fighting. It will allow you to cover greater distances with less effort than you would just shuffling. If you have good "weapon's" footwork, you are used to essentially, "walking" and striking with power.


Footwork for fighting with blunt or edged weapons isn't that much different than fighting empty-handed. Power development is essentially the same with a weapon or without.

Why am I not surprised that you didn't know this?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Footwork for fighting with blunt or edged weapons isn't that much different than fighting empty-handed. Power development is essentially the same with a weapon or without.

Why am I not surprised that you didn't know this?

Thanks uncle B.S. Obviously, they apply to both Dale, that is my whole point, but the way that Kung fu fighters are trained they don't always realize it. One is for empty hand and one is for weapons. They also don't realize the usefulness of their legs to help get the job done. I am sure that you don't either since your just practiced "steroid MT."

Need we pull the Rashun video again so that we can see how you cut people off?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Really Dale your complete lack of knowledge about Kung Fu and your willingness to speak on it are just incompatible.

[Knifefighter]

Thanks uncle B.S. Obviously, they apply to both Dale, that is my whole point, but the way that Kung fu fighters are trained they don't always realize it. One is for empty hand and one is for weapons.

Speaking of b.s. Do they apply to both or is one for empty and one for weapons? Which is it?



Need we pull the Rashun video again so that we can see how you cut people off?

Sure, we can also post vid with full contact weapons fighting also. But let's first post the clips of you demonstrating how you cut people off in a non-restrictive space with and without with weapons.

[Knifefighter]

Really Dale your complete lack of knowledge about Kung Fu and your willingness to speak on it are just incompatible.

I'm not speaking kung fu. I am speaking full-contact weapons fighting, something you obviously have zero knowledge of.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'm not speaking kung fu. I am speaking full-contact weapons fighting, something you obviously have zero knowledge of.

Interestingly, the subject is full-contact empty hand fighting, something that only steroids and fitness rather than knowledge got you through.

[Ultimatewingchun]

All the advice about cutting off the ring and moving in on him to close the range makes perfect sense except for 1 thing. i am 56 years old. i don't chase anything. If it doesn't come to me screw it, I didn't really want it anyway. :)

***SOUNDS LIKE my attitude towards women these days. :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Just kidding, dear...in case you're reading this. (My wife can be so touchy! :p)

[Knifefighter]

Interestingly, the subject is full-contact empty hand fighting, something that only steroids and fitness rather than knowledge got you through.

Interestingly, you were the one who brought up the weapons footwork.

[TenTigers]

I don't agree with the idea that boxing does not have as much footwork as Gung-Fu. Boxing has a very developed footwork. It is so much more than simply shuffling and sidestepping. There are angles, step-throughs, direction changes, switch-steps, scramble steps, etc and varied patterns of movements.
People who claim this, haven't studied boxing.

[Knifefighter]

I never said that it didn't amount to the same thing in principle. Its just that boxers don't typically employ as many footwork options as kung fu practitioners. When you are cutting off an opponent staying close is much more important in a large area. In a ring, they can only go so far.

Ummm... the whole point of cutting someone off is to use the boundaries provided by the ring as a barrier to shut down the opponent from being able to use another angle as you are setting up your angles.

You can't really cut someone off if they have unlimited movement options to move away from you.

Why am I not surprised you don't know these basic principles?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't agree with the idea that boxing does not have as much footwork as Gung-Fu. Boxing has a very developed footwork. It is so much more than simply shuffling and sidestepping. There are angles, step-throughs, direction changes, switch-steps, scramble steps, etc and varied patterns of movements.
People who claim this, haven't studied boxing.
You may see some unothadox fighter do some of this but...
Boxing doesn't have:

Crossover steps: hidden steps, "steal a step", "front" crossover steps

Spinning: pivoting, step & spin, china circle, spinning from a crossover

Sidling step

Inverted step

Hopping

Lunging steps: front and reverse (not quite like boxing).

Rolling - a form of locomotion but not necessarily a "step" exactly
Not to mention boxing lacks all the myriad of stances that are transitory positions in kung fu that I would not call "steps" but function as such.

Bow stance,
Mountain climber stance
Horse Stance

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ummm... the whole point of cutting someone off is to use the boundaries provided by the ring as a barrier to shut down the opponent from being able to use another angle as you are setting up your angles.

You can't really cut someone off if they have unlimited movement options to move away from you.

Why am I not surprised you don't know these basic principles?

A large area isn't an unlimited boundary. I set the parameters in my previous posts to a gymnasium.

[Knifefighter]

You may see some unothadox fighter do some of this but...
Boxing doesn't have:

Crossover steps: hidden steps, "steal a step", "front" crossover steps

Spinning: pivoting, step & spin, china circle, spinning from a crossover

Sidling step

Inverted step

Lunging steps: front and reverse.


Not to mention boxing lacks all the myriad of stances that are transitory positions in kung fu that I would not call "steps" but function as such.

Bow stance,
Mountain climber stance
Horse Stance

Of course boxing doesn't have those things. Like all functional, full-contact systems they understand that those things are not effective means of mobility for fighting. There is a reason you don't see most those things in any full-contact system and why most full contact systems from striking to grappling have similar footwork.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Of course boxing doesn't have those things. Like all functional, full-contact systems they understand that those things are not effective means of mobility for fighting. There is a reason you don't see most those things in any full-contact system and why most full contact systems from striking to grappling have similar footwork.

You can't say spinning isn't effective. People stay away from out of position fighters all the time for fear of getting cracked with spinning techniques. All the other stuff works as well. You just have to understand it. MT uses crossovers and spinning to name a few.

[YungChun]

For Victor and the group..

Just an interesting clip (I thought) where the smaller guy is the aggressor..full contact bare knuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36rlRw3n1KI&feature=related

[Knifefighter]

A large area isn't an unlimited boundary. I set the parameters in my previous posts to a gymnasium.

Fair enough.


The other part is staying close to your opponent. When you spar outside or in a gymnasium it is more difficult if you are facing faster opponent. They will just continue to separate and run around you. I will post some videos later.

Looking forward to seeing those clips of you cutting people off in a gymnasium.

BTW, you never answered my question:



Thanks uncle B.S. Obviously, they apply to both Dale, that is my whole point, but the way that Kung fu fighters are trained they don't always realize it. One is for empty hand and one is for weapons.
Speaking of b.s. Do they apply to both or is one for empty and one for weapons? Which is it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

For Victor and the group..

Just an interesting clip (I thought) where the smaller guy is the aggressor..full contact bare knuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36rlRw3n1KI&feature=related

over 30 min !
**** !!
The little guys had many chances to finish it early, he never followed up, makes you wonder...
He moved well, though he moved back a little too much for my taste, and he loaded up well with his left.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Fair enough.



Looking forward to seeing those clips of you cutting people off in a gymnasium.

BTW, you never answered my question:



Speaking of b.s. Do they apply to both or is one for empty and one for weapons? Which is it?

A lot of times kung fu people are trained to do a certain set of footwork with empty hand and a certain set with weapons. They don't realize sometimes that hey way that they move using weapons usually has application with empty hand fighting. So... I would say that I you use, "weapons footwork," in regular hand to hand. Meaning that I am much more willing to hit angles and use lunging techniques in hand to hand. It's not that anyone is saying, "This is weapons footwork, and that is hand to hand footwork." It's just that the curriculum doesn't always make it as evident in some systems that that type of dichotomy doesn't exist.

[JPinAZ]

I liked this clip of fighterman a little better than the first (well second) clip vic posted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvSvZslMxiY&feature=related

At least this boxer had some head movement...

[Ultimatewingchun]

For Victor and the group..

Just an interesting clip (I thought) where the smaller guy is the aggressor..full contact bare knuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36rlRw3n1KI&feature=related

***I SWEAR to you, Jim/YungChun...:eek:

this fight reminds me of an encounter I once had waaaaaay back in the day on a Brooklyn street corner - and with an Irish guy from the neighborhood named Ray Wilson!!!

We couldn't have been more than about 14 years old at the time. I'm a natural lefty and was fighting southpaw, Ray was fighting orthodox, and I was the smaller guy (pretty much the same size differential as the two guys in the vid).

And it never really went to clinch or ground - just like in the vid....and with no real winner. After about 6-7 minutes some older man walked by and broke us up.

We both landed a few rear hand shots to the other guy's face and body as I remember it.

So strange to watch that vid...:rolleyes:

[HumbleWCGuy]

sorry but i don't see the point big or small area the tactic and end result is the same: walk him down cut the angle get him between you and something hard and unmoving and then keep him there.

I can't see how shuffling or faster different footwork can make a difference, i thought the whole idea of walking someone down was to take away his ability to move around you, hence side to dise forward movement, wouldn't darting in or moving forward in a straight lne allow him to move around you?

As for staying close well i thought the whole reason you were walking him down was because he kept moving away and you couldn't stay close to him, if you are that close do you need to walk him down?
It's like being a defender in basketball. The defender corrals the movement of the offensive player, but that only happens if a defender has a credible chance of stealing the ball. With cutting off a large area, if the credible threat of a strike is not present, the butterfly continues to move around. You have to do everything you can to stop him from created too much separation.

[SAAMAG]

You may see some unothadox fighter do some of this but...
Boxing doesn't have:

Crossover steps: hidden steps, "steal a step", "front" crossover steps

Spinning: pivoting, step & spin, china circle, spinning from a crossover

Sidling step

Inverted step

Hopping

Lunging steps: front and reverse (not quite like boxing).

Rolling - a form of locomotion but not necessarily a "step" exactly
Not to mention boxing lacks all the myriad of stances that are transitory positions in kung fu that I would not call "steps" but function as such.

Bow stance,
Mountain climber stance
Horse Stance

Far too convoluted to be of any real use IMO. I love gung fu, but I love to shed the crap that doesn't work too. Stand shoulder width apart, simple shuffle steps are the most effective. Call it a day.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Far too convoluted to be of any real use IMO. I love gung fu, but I love to shed the crap that doesn't work too. Stand shoulder width apart, simple shuffle steps are the most effective. Call it a day.

I understand where you are coming from. I felt the same way about a some of this of this because of how it was presented to me. The reality is that it is all is just solid fundamental fighting. Shuffles are basic and important. However, you should not limit yourself to those movements.

Look at my comments on the Weng Chun Thread. She has decent boxing bolos that are viewed as kung fu crap because she is wearing a kung fu uniform. If she had on boxing shorts, it would be, "Look at the tremendous bolos." Get my point? I used to think that a lot of that was crap until I saw strong professional fighters apply these moves.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One thing that I think happens a lot in Kung fu is people learn a lot of slightly off versions of how a technique should be performed because of the theoretical non-fighters (to use a Dale term) who dominate the TCMA landscape.

[YungChun]

***I SWEAR to you, Jim/YungChun...:eek:

...

We both landed a few rear hand shots to the other guy's face and body as I remember it.

So strange to watch that vid...:rolleyes:

Glad you liked it... I am also a lefty but I have always fought orthodox.. :cool:

[anerlich]

the theoretical non-fighters (to use a Dale term)

I think "theoretical non-fighters" is actually a Terence term. He definitely has a claim to it from frequency of (over)use even if not the originator.

[SAAMAG]

Look at my comments on the Weng Chun Thread. She has decent boxing bolos that are viewed as kung fu crap because she is wearing a kung fu uniform. If she had on boxing shorts, it would be, "Look at the tremendous bolos." Get my point? I used to think that a lot of that was crap until I saw strong professional fighters apply these moves.

When you say look at those tremendous bolos...I'm probably visualizing something completely different than you.