A Rick Spain question

[jimbob]

I know there are a few Rick Spain students here and have been wanting to ask this for awhile. I left Australia just as news came out that he was revisiting Kyokushin. I think I picked up a Blitz mag in which he said it was more for personal reasons - to complete his own circle because that's what he started out in. Fantastic for him.

I was curious to know if he's added anything from his Kyokushin training to the current syllabus he teaches. In his demo vids on Youtube I see very little WC (although I'm not a WC practitioner so I may not be seeing things I should be), lots of BJJ, lots of non WC kicking techs - but we all know demos are hardly representative of an entire system.

And when Sifu Spain introduces new concepts and techniques, is it because he acknowledges a lack in the WC system, or because he simply thinks they're worthwhile things to add, or do they all get modified to fit with whatever conceptual base is at the heart of the system he teaches?

And do you guys have any stories of his about his return to Kyokushin training that you'd care to share.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[anerlich]

Article from Blitz Magazine is here:

http://www.kyokushinsydney.com/articles/Blitz%20Vol22No1.pdf

I'm the second highest ranked student of Sifu Spain still associated and training with him and have been his student for 21 years.

Kyokushin is something Rick Spain basically does on his own as a side project, the reasons are better explained in the article than anything I could say. He hasn't so far taught any karate in his classes to my knowledge.

He's been doing BJJ since about 1998 with John Will and Anthony Lange, and has worked with them and a number of other people in developing an MMA curriculum.

He also competed at national level in kickboxing in the 70's and early 80's, 37 pro and over 100 amateur fights, and done demo matches with Benny Urquidez and Bill Wallace. The non-WC kicks are part of the requirement for a strategy that worked under rule sets that only allowed kicks above the waist, per pre-MT kickboxing in the late 70's.

He is also the late, great Gary Spiers' nephew.

He offers traditional WC, BJJ, and MMA classes. BJJ and MMA are obviously related, but his WC remains as it always was, though we tend to work more from a front stance than a neutral or side neutral stance, with more exchange steps than pivoting.

BJJ and WC are two great systems, but neither is any good at what the other is great at.

I think Rick Spain's philosophy is to become the best and most well-rounded martial artist possible. And his path led through many systems.

He's taught the Kyokushin guys some BJJ and a few of them occasionally come to BJJ classes.

Check it out before you knock it.

[jimbob]

Mate

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post. I'm by no means knocking Rick Spain. I admire his open-mindedness and willingness to evolve.

I started in 1978 with CLF - and for most of my martial arts life I was always discouraged from looking outside a system "that was complete". Except it wasn't and I always felt that way - much as I love it. I became good friends with Pat McCarthy in the mid 90's and found a traditionalist who has continued to look outside his paradigm. It always catches my eye when I hear of others doing the same thing - hence my question.

of course, many many more people cross train now, but senior teachers crossing over isn't so often seen.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear - it was a question out of genuine curiousity. Thank you for answering it and posting the link to the article.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know who Rick Spain is, but if he is kyokushin, he is obviously uber-awesome.
:D

Kyokushin is not for everyone, though it has become far more mainstream than in the past.
I know that my brand of kyokushin is not something I would teach to just anyone.


I think Rick Spain's philosophy is to become the best and most well-rounded martial artist possible. And his path led through many systems.

Smart guy.
Not everyone's path leads them through many systems, but for some that is the path.
Sometimes out of choice and others out of necessity.

When I first started WC I brought kyokushin with me and when I was told to introduce it to some of the seniors there, they got a nice eye opening experience.
All benefited from it.

[duende]

I've never heard anything but Kung Fu respect for Rick Spain and his accomplishments.

Looks like there's a strong chance I'm going to Sydney this year for work. Would love to come by and say hi.

Where are you all located again?

Also curious about this front stance footwork you mention. Care to share more?

Best,

Alex

[Ultimatewingchun]

I can probably give a little insight into this - as I've come to the same conclusions about the TWC stances and footwork.

William Cheung always taught fighting out of the neutral side (body) stance - as this provides the fastest possibe lateral side steps against a frontal attack (be they half side steps or the full (T-stance) side step.

But to be able to move the fastest going forward and backwards - then you need a front stance as your main stance. And interestingly enough, if you've ever seen the youtube clip of William Cheung sparring lightly with a boxer - William uses the front stance exclusively.

It's a more aggressive (offensive) position to be in - and the best defense is offense.

Boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, karate fighters, mma guys, sambo guys...they all fight out of some variation of a front stance.

And btw, Andrew also mentioned what is referred to in TWC as the exchange step. This is a defensive measure that is sometimes a good way to deal with frontal attacks when fighting from the front stance - so it makes sense that Rick would use the exchange often since adapting the front stance as his main stance.

[duende]

I can probably give a little insight into this - as I've come to the same conclusions about the TWC stances and footwork.

William Cheung always taught fighting out of the neutral side (body) stance - as this provides the fastest possibe lateral side steps against a frontal attack (be they half side steps or the full (T-stance) side step.

But to be able to move the fastest going forward and backwards - then you need a front stance as your main stance. And interestingly enough, if you've ever seen the youtube clip of William Cheung sparring lightly with a boxer - William uses the front stance exclusively.

It's a more aggressive (offensive) position to be in - and the best defense is offense.

Boxers, kickboxers, Thai boxers, karate fighters, mma guys, sambo guys...they all fight out of some variation of a front stance.

And btw, Andrew also mentioned what is referred to in TWC as the exchange step. This is a defensive measure that is sometimes a good way to deal with frontal attacks when fighting from the front stance - so it makes sense that Rick would use the exchange often since adapting the front stance as his main stance.

Interesting,

Thanks Victor.

Fwiw, we typically do not face off with a side stance either. Although we do use what we call Lueng Yi Ma footwork sometimes to close off the line from a potential flanking angle.

Otherwise, our LYM is more for earth gate defense, and bridging/taking the outside line by way of challenging an opponents space.



A pure side stance may often be too shallow of a stance (front to back structure-wise) to truly meet strong oncoming energy.... despite the redirecting/absorbing capabilities it offers.

[anerlich]

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post. I'm by no means knocking Rick Spain. I admire his open-mindedness and willingness to evolve.


No worries, I know you weren't knocking him, it was a preemptive strike against some of the usual suspects :p


I became good friends with Pat McCarthy in the mid 90's and found a traditionalist who has continued to look outside his paradigm. It always catches my eye when I hear of others doing the same thing - hence my question.


Patrick McCarthy is awesome. Amazing standup, groundwork, and weapons. I've only seen him in demos but spent a few interesting days with one of his black belt students Steven Fekete (sp?).


Where are you all located again?

Also curious about this front stance footwork you mention. Care to share more?

Best,

Alex

431 Elizabeth St, Surry Hills, near Devonshire St, an easy walk from Central railway station in Sydney.

The front stance thing came about after repeated observations of TWC students in tournaments or kickboxing matches dealing with significant incoming forward pressure. If they started in side neutral, they almost always either got driven back into the ropes, or else switched to a front stance.

Rick Spain claims to have been in the Melbourne school when William Cheung came in and, without announcement, performed a version of SLT with footwork, using entirely front stances and exchange steps. He walked out again and nothing was said. Sounds a bit KFmovie-esque, I know.

The way we perform all our forms now, including the swords and dummy, is to use these stances, using footwork and exchange steps, and including the TWC entry technique. Students are also encouraged to experiment with and vary the footwork in the forms. This certainly increases agility and nimbleness and wakes up the lower body.

YMMV, but this seems to work fairly well for most students.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Rick Spain claims to have been in the Melbourne school when William Cheung came in and, without announcement, performed a version of SLT with footwork, using entirely front stances and exchange steps. He walked out again and nothing was said. Sounds a bit KFmovie-esque, I know."

***VERY INTERESTING, Andrew...

So this was clearly different than the Advanced SLT form (which has some footwork) I take it? Yeah?

[anerlich]

I wasn't there, and this conversation was years ago, but I gather it was basically ASLT done in front stances and exchange steps.

You could probably work out most of what we do yourself if you played around with it. Maybe even improve it or come up with some interesting wrinkles. There is more than one right answer!

[Phil Redmond]

@ Victor. Aww man, the secret is out . . . . .:D
Yep, SLT can vary.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . So this was clearly different than the Advanced SLT form (which has some footwork) I take it? Yeah?
Yes it is.

[Ultimatewingchun]

No kidding, Phil...:cool: :)

Have been playing with ALL the forms while in a front stance for years now - so Andrew's post immediately perked my ears up.

And if you recall, I'm the one who first brought something else to your attention a good 6-7 years ago about the "LOST FOOTAGE" vid of our sifu, Grandmaster William Cheung...

I'll refresh your memory in case you forgot; and Andrew, you might be interested in pm'ing me about this...

but in the SLT form Grandmaster Cheung does in the vid - only the first fuk sao/wu sao are done on the main centerline...

the second pair and the third pair are done on different areas of the central line...

the second corresponding to the chest line and the third to the shoulder line near the arm pit area.

The reason why few people have ever picked this up is due to the camera angles used while filming...I didn't notice it until about the third time I watched the vid.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw, Andrew...

I've been very interested in what Rick Spain has been up to for a good 7-8 years now, since the crosstraining route he's taken has been very impressive - along with his achievements as a competitor that go back many years.

Rick's stature within the TWC world of William Cheung (before he left the Association) was always known to me - as I heard it from William Cheung himself on a few occasions.

I had the opportunity to meet Rick and train at a seminar he gave here in New Jersey about 12 years ago - but I turned it down. The guy who organized it was really lobbying me to attend; but since Rick had left the WWCKFA not long before under some bad feelings - the politics wasn't right for me to go at the time. We don't have to rehash the particulars - as you know even better than I what was going on (water under the bridge)

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't know who Rick Spain is, but if he is kyokushin, he is obviously uber-awesome.
:D

Kyokushin is not for everyone, though it has become far more mainstream than in the past.
I know that my brand of kyokushin is not something I would teach to just anyone.



Smart guy.
Not everyone's path leads them through many systems, but for some that is the path.
Sometimes out of choice and others out of necessity.

When I first started WC I brought kyokushin with me and when I was told to introduce it to some of the seniors there, they got a nice eye opening experience.
All benefited from it.

I wish that this was how people spoke about Wing Chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What particularly interests me at this point in time, Andrew...is the fact that someone who had 37 pro kickboxing and over 100 amateur fights (including demos with Urquidez and Wallace)....along with kyokushin and BJJ...

he's got to be mixing boxing and kickboxing with his wing chun, yeah?

In terms of his standup (and the kyokushin).

Let me ask it this way. Rick in a serious fight/match at this point in time (where basically anything goes)...and NOT while teaching a wing chun class, a kyokushin class - you see where I'm going?...

Rick in a serious nhb fight/match at this point in time - we'd probably see some mix of all the arts I mentioned - wouldn't we?

I know you can't speak for Rick; but as you said, you've been around him for 21 years and are his #2 guy by now - so in your opinion...

what would his stand up look like?

[anerlich]

Good question - he can box quite well, though he's never had a match fight under those rules AFAIK. Kickboxing, he's definitely done most if not all of it.

In a match, you'd probably see kickboxing and Kyokushin kicks, boxing style footwork and body movement, Wc hands interspersed with uppercuts and short hooks on the inside (which seem to work well against "pure" WC sparmates). He'd definitely try and take it to the ground against anyone short of a really good sub wrestler or BJJ black belt.

It's a bit of a silly exercise in some ways, trying to imagine what someone might do in a particular situation, but I think I'm probably reasonably close to the mark.

One other arrow in the quiver would definitely be conditioning. He does strength work, cardio and crossfit style workouts like a beast. He's pushing 50 and I doubt there's many guys his age anywhere as strong and fit and flexible as he is.

I repeat again that while you might get a mix of stuff in a match or fight, the various disciplines are trained separately without a lot of crossover, although those who aren't as keen on grappling as some might get the occasional bit of groundfighting in WC class. But TWC and BJJ are taught separately. MMA is a mix of striking and grappling, but it too is taught as a separate discipline as it is different to both pure grappling and pure striking.

The same thing happens at most MMA schools I've been to, certainly the one I attend regularly. It offers classes in BJJ, MT, MMA, and Arnis.

Mixing the arts up in a single class does, I believe, confuse students and result in mediocrity in the disciplines.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Excellent answer, Andrew...thank you.

Pretty much confirms what I thought, including the way to go about training various arts you might want to mix together.

Particularly encouraged by the way you described what his standup might look like these days - as it parallels what I've been thinking and trying to do in recent years with wing chun, boxing, and kickboxing...

although I'm sure Rick's fighting skills definitely go beyond mine! ;)

I guess the next logical question would be something like this:

Do you know of any plans Rick might have concerning training someone for any nhb mma events?

Given what's on his resume, I think he could train some very formidable mma fighters if he really wanted to.

What do you think?

[HumbleWCGuy]

@ Victor. Aww man, the secret is out . . . . .:D
Yep, SLT can vary.

In my lineage we approach the forms by doing them completely stationary and then, less formally, we are encouraged to "free-style" by adding pivots at first, then footwork. We are expected to find different expressions of the forms by "playing around."

[HumbleWCGuy]

William Cheung always taught fighting out of the neutral side (body) stance - as this provides the fastest possibe lateral side steps against a frontal attack (be they half side steps or the full (T-stance) side step.


I have never met William although I have seen some parts of his tapes and youtube clips. I have been curious for some time about this little hopping movement that I see him do. It seems to happen when he starts from a natural stance. Any thoughts? I know that some crane systems use hopping, but I can't recall seeing any WC practitioners doing it. Although, I don't think that WC principles preclude it.

[bennyvt]

yeh i was taught it was all the same, one leg, front stance. Never did it pivoting though. Have to try it. I got a cool once fro the leung sheun lineage on the dummy. He had a interesting idea of playing with the dummy. Only using one arm. It feels weird but have another idea to consider. And as an aussie from a lineage that has had bad blood with twc. (all in the past) rick spain was always thought of as a good fighter

[kung fu fighter]

In a match, you'd probably see kickboxing and Kyokushin kicks, boxing style footwork and body movement, Wc hands interspersed with uppercuts and short hooks on the inside (which seem to work well against "pure" WC sparmates). He'd definitely try and take it to the ground against anyone short of a really good sub wrestler or BJJ black belt.

So basically Rick's fighting has an MMA structure with wing chun elements!

William Cheung also Had another student in the 80's by the name Anthony Arnett who made a name for himself in full contact fighting as well. What do you know about what his fighting looks like today?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Can't speak for today, but I have a vid made by Anthony back in the day with some of his guys - and with William Cheung supervising it. It was very good as far as it went at the time - using boxing gloves and dealing strictly with punches and kicks...

as in those days Anthony and his students were entering tournaments strictly under kickboxing rules (no clinching, no takedowns, no ground fighting).

[anerlich]

Competition isn't a huge focus for the academy, but our students had a few wins and a few losses in intermediate level MMA competitions. We've also had students succeeed in kickboxing, amateur boxing, and even continuous sparring and taekwondo.

Our Tasmanian branch regularly medal in BJJ comps down there. One of our other guys won his purple belt division of the Machado nationals also, and we had a girl who regularly placed in the top three in blue belt divisions.

We probably do about as well in comps as Alan Orr's students IMO with a little less fanfare.

If we had a real ambitious and serious MMA contender, Rick has network of friends who are MMA and sub wrestling coaches and long time BJJ black belts, and it would be foolish not to involve those guys.

A couple of our guys have trained at BJ Penn's academy for several months, FWIW.

[Gowgee]

anerlich, sorry to bring the conversation down to a slow drawl with my question as a 3rd party with respect for Sifu Spain, but what is exchange stepping?

[kung fu fighter]

Can't speak for today, but I have a vid made by Anthony back in the day with some of his guys - and with William Cheung supervising it. It was very good as far as it went at the time - using boxing gloves and dealing strictly with punches and kicks...

as in those days Anthony and his students were entering tournaments strictly under kickboxing rules (no clinching, no takedowns, no ground fighting).

Perhaps, you can put it up on on youtube:)

[anerlich]

anerlich, sorry to bring the conversation down to a slow drawl with my question as a 3rd party with respect for Sifu Spain, but what is exchange stepping?

Nothing at all wrong with the question.

An exchange step is basically a way to switch from a front stance with one foot forward to a front stance with the other foot forward.

From a left front stance (50/50 weight in TWC) step your left foot slightly behind the right, then step forward with your right to end up in front stance on the opposite side.

We also use a T step which is a combination of a side step and an exchange step.

Realistically, it's only used in isolation in the forms to swtich sides and do each sequence first on one side and then the other.

[anerlich]

So basically Rick's fighting has an MMA structure with wing chun elements!


Yeah, I guess that's about right.

IMO, the use of "structure" here has nothing to do with the "structure" we bicker about incessantly on this forum with respect to WC. MMA "structure" in that sense is much more variable and depends on exactly what you are doing, e.g. "rooting" to obtain punching power is not the best idea against an opponent skilled at leg shoots.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah, I guess that's about right.

IMO, the use of "structure" here has nothing to do with the "structure" we bicker about incessantly on this forum with respect to WC. MMA "structure" in that sense is much more variable and depends on exactly what you are doing, e.g. "rooting" to obtain punching power is not the best idea against an opponent skilled at leg shoots.

***ANOTHER good and thoughtful post, Andrew...

Rick Spain's present day approach to fighting is basically an MMA structure with wing chun elements. Sounds like a good plan. Standup, Clinch, Ground. And you do what's necessary depending upon the zone you're in - with wing chun being used at close standup range - along with other moves like boxing hooks and uppercuts when in that range and striking is what's on the plate. That's the picture I'm getting.

I'm starting to regret not taking the opportunity to have attended Rick's seminar back in 98'...;)

.......................

On another note: BJ Penn, huh?! Interesting. BJ's got lots of skills in all areas of fighting. I have his book: "Mixed Martial Arts: the book of knowledge".

It's a big hardcover that goes about 300 pages - and with quite a number of color photos as he demos all aspects of his game.

Btw, does Rick still work on things like the Wooden Dummy these days?

The Butterfly swords? The Dragon Pole?

[anerlich]

Btw, does Rick still work on things like the Wooden Dummy these days?

The Butterfly swords? The Dragon Pole?

He works out maybe 6 days a week, and at least one of those will be a traditional workout - forms, the weapons, dummy, chi sao, etc.

[anerlich]

I'm starting to regret not taking the opportunity to have attended Rick's seminar back in 98'...


Not for me to say. He would have only started grappling around that time, maybe even after, though he could have shown you some pretty slick kicking back then. I'm sure you guys would have gotten along very well ... though I also think Sigung Cheung would have been livid if he'd found out you were talking to him at the time ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh, no doubt about it. LOL :cool: :D
.................................

Yeah, Rick is very impressive.

Does he have any plans for any vids? You know, sort of a "This is where I am now in my martial arts" kind of thing?

I mean, he's got to be an encyclopedia by now. Would love to actually see how he pieces it altogether.

[anerlich]

Not really, while he has no aversion to making money he's never been much of a one for the seminar/DVD/youtube self promotion route. He has a number of other business interests besides his school and I think it comes down to the fact that there are only 24 hours in a day and concentrating on what activities pay the best.

He has done a few seminar DVD's, grading system DVD's etc, though they're probably not of professional quality (not that that seems to stop many people).

[Niersun]

***VERY INTERESTING, Andrew...

So this was clearly different than the Advanced SLT form (which has some footwork) I take it? Yeah?

A bit old, but yes he has chopped and changed the forms and he has also created a new story about the history of Wing Chun. He calls his brand of Wing Chun as Hung Suen or Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Suen and Hung Fa yi, a lie for marketing purposes???

[Ultimatewingchun]

A bit old, but yes he has chopped and changed the forms and he has also created a new story about the history of Wing Chun. He calls his brand of Wing Chun as Hung Suen or Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Suen and Hung Fa yi, a lie for marketing purposes???

****Very confusing post, Niersun...

What exactly are you saying about William Cheung, and what he refers to as TWC (Traditional Wing Chun)?

[Niersun]

****Very confusing post, Niersun...

What exactly are you saying about William Cheung, and what he refers to as TWC (Traditional Wing Chun)?

Im not referring to Sifu. Im referring to Rick Spain. He has changed the TWC forms that he learnt and has created a new history of Wing Chun.

No one ever argued about the history of Wing Chun, except GM Cheung, i.e, 5 Grandmasters and Leung Bik, etc whereas others will state NgMui watching a crane fight with a snake. Rick Spain since starting his own schools, came up with a whole different story from that of "The Buddist nun teaching a orphan girl".

Suprise suprise, out of the blue comes the name Hung suen and Hung Fa yi???

[duende]

A bit old, but yes he has chopped and changed the forms and he has also created a new story about the history of Wing Chun. He calls his brand of Wing Chun as Hung Suen or Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Suen and Hung Fa yi, a lie for marketing purposes???



Im not referring to Sifu. Im referring to Rick Spain. He has changed the TWC forms that he learnt and has created a new history of Wing Chun.

No one ever argued about the history of Wing Chun, except GM Cheung, i.e, 5 Grandmasters and Leung Bik, etc whereas others will state NgMui watching a crane fight with a snake. Rick Spain since starting his own schools, came up with a whole different story from that of "The Buddist nun teaching a orphan girl".

Suprise suprise, out of the blue comes the name Hung suen and Hung Fa yi???



Hey Niersun,

For your information, Hung Fa Yi and Hung Suen are not related. We only used the name Hung Suen publicly early on because it was a generic term and didn't attract attention. Not for marketing, but for lack of marketing rather... Internally, we have always been Hung Fa Yi.

Around the late nineties, we started receiving more public attention. And it therefore became apparent that we couldn't really use Hung Suen name anymore. As our history was now public, it was time to share our true name.


As for WC being developed by a nun.... Many WC'rs dispute the myth. Although, we may have been among the first, we are most definitely not alone. Again.. if you think that's marketing, then seriously...haha.. don't ever try your hand at business.

Personally, I bust up laughing whenever I hear foolishness about WC being female in nature, or "The Buddist nun teaching a orphan girl"... come on.. get real. That's all fantasy fu nonsense.



Finally, in regards to your so called marketing accusations..

We don't sell DVD's. Nor do we plan to. (I don't think Rick Spain's group does either for that matter)

We only have a book out, because they (Human Kinetics) approached us.

Yes we do have seminars, but as they tend to run practically non-stop for two days... one would be hard pressed to complain about getting their money's worth.


So frankly your comments about either Hung Fa Yi or Hung Suen and marketing, are not only unfounded... but truly delusional.




Ok.. said my peace.

[bennyvt]

does anyone believe the nun story. I read when rick changed it and it had to do more with the fact that at the time it was all about the red boats. And he wasn't using the twc name anymore.

[Niersun]

Apologies to you for what may seem delusional comments.

However, as you can see, i dont know squat about Hung fa yi since it is relatively new to the public, which has actually led me to these forums after trying to research more about it.

Ultimately, i want to know the true history of the art and i understand that there a differences as most MA throughout the centuries trained in different arts also.

But why would Leung Yee Tai or Wong wah bo tell a lie to Leung Jan about the beginnings which would then be passed onto to his son Leung Bik and then Chan Wah shun and ultimately Yip Man?

Red Flower society isnt nothing new. Im half Chinese and read books about them. Rebelions, but nothing about them having there own style of fighting, particularly Wing chun.

When i spoke of marketing, i meant through "something new".

A society has more than one member, so please inform me who else can confirm Hung Fa Yi's stories??? Other than Gee sifu and his sifu???

Poke in the eye and kick to the nuts, attacking the vital parts of the body as a primary objective sounds feminish to me.

So when, Yip man was on the television, bruce lee, william cheung, wong shun leung was telling the world how Wing Chun was developed by a woman, you guys decided to keep quiet and not reveal the truth??? Red Flower society was secretive centuries ago in China, not in the 60's or 70's in HK. Why keep quiet.

Please again dont take this as an attack, ultimately i would like to obtain the truth for my own personal reasons. You do not have to prove yourself to me (from what i have seen, its good, its similar to TWC), should you wish, just PM me.

[duende]

Apologies to you for what may seem delusional comments.


No worries. I just get my guard up sometimes



However, as you can see, i dont know squat about Hung fa yi since it is relatively new to the public, which has actually led me to these forums after trying to research more about it.


Where do you live? I'm in the Bay Area. If you're ever in the area, stop on by. We have welcomed many visitors over the years.



Ultimately, i want to know the true history of the art and i understand that there a differences as most MA throughout the centuries trained in different arts also.


WC is a very complex history. With various branches, and limbs. However ultimately, I believe we all share the same roots, or crossed roots with a common history that is most likely along similar lines as other Southern fist systems.




But why would Leung Yee Tai or Wong wah bo tell a lie to Leung Jan about the beginnings which would then be passed onto to his son Leung Bik and then Chan Wah shun and ultimately Yip Man?


How do we know exactly what WWB and LYT told LJ? Who knows the context etc... Ultimately, it's not for us to say. If you consider the uprisings, rebellions, and similar history of other southern fist systems... it makes more sense imo, that the classic tale was somewhat of a metaphor.




Red Flower society isnt nothing new. Im half Chinese and read books about them. Rebelions, but nothing about them having there own style of fighting, particularly Wing chun.

When i spoke of marketing, i meant through "something new".



Actually you may want to read more. There's much documented history of the secret societies and their intertwined relationships with southern KF systems.




A society has more than one member, so please inform me who else can confirm Hung Fa Yi's stories??? Other than Gee sifu and his sifu???


Sure, but actual lineage holders are few. Look at the lineage of YM... Besides modern times, very few actual figures are accounted for in their history as well.

It's perfectly fine to seek answers to these questions. Imo however, the expression of the art, logic flow, and core identity legitimizes Hung Fa Yi beyond doubt.

FWIW, we have been in contact with other Hung Fa Yi disciples from my Sifu's generation.




Poke in the eye and kick to the nuts, attacking the vital parts of the body as a primary objective sounds feminish to me.


These are common techniques to many MA's not just WC.



So when, Yip man was on the television, bruce lee, william cheung, wong shun leung was telling the world how Wing Chun was developed by a woman, you guys decided to keep quiet and not reveal the truth??? Red Flower society was secretive centuries ago in China, not in the 60's or 70's in HK. Why keep quiet.


Iron Curtain for one. One can not compare HK to Mainland China without taking this into consideration. TCMA's were widely persecuted during the earlier days of communist rule. There are many other reasons too, but in general.. Ask yourself this. Without Bruce Lee... how widespread and well known, do you think YM Wing Chun would be?




Please again dont take this as an attack, ultimately i would like to obtain the truth for my own personal reasons. You do not have to prove yourself to me (from what i have seen, its good, its similar to TWC), should you wish, just PM me.

I don't see it as an attack, but thanks for making your perspective clear.

Best,

[anerlich]

A bit old, but yes he has chopped and changed the forms and he has also created a new story about the history of Wing Chun. He calls his brand of Wing Chun as Hung Suen or Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Suen and Hung Fa yi, a lie for marketing purposes???

LOL, the mother of all improbable WC marketing stories and greatest single cause of internecine WC squabbling over the last 40 odd years is William Cheung's own history. It's pretty funny that you get all uppity about anyone else having a go.

All of this has been done to flippin' death, resurrected, and done to flippin' death again several times over on this forum over the last few years. I suggest you do some historical research of your own in the forum before diving in too much deeper and repeating the mistakes of the past.


Originally Posted by Niersun
Im not referring to Sifu. Im referring to Rick Spain. He has changed the TWC forms that he learnt and has created a new history of Wing Chun.

No one ever argued about the history of Wing Chun, except GM Cheung, i.e, 5 Grandmasters and Leung Bik, etc whereas others will state NgMui watching a crane fight with a snake. Rick Spain since starting his own schools, came up with a whole different story from that of "The Buddist nun teaching a orphan girl".

Suprise suprise, out of the blue comes the name Hung suen and Hung Fa yi???

He does the forms differently to how Willam Cheung teaches them, yes. He claims that he saw William Cheung doing the forms this way once, and I've already explained the rationale for using front stance rather than side neutral above. I'm not sure if you regard this as mortal sin or creative virtue. And I don't care.

There was plenty of argument about the history of WC before Rick added anything to it, and no doubt there will continue to be. Some people might have nothing to do otherwise!

Actually, what happened is that Rick Spain and his then senior student Alf del Brocco were in contact with Benny Meng, who was then pushing the HFY (formerly called Hung Suen) barrow pretty fast. Alf and Benny collaborated on at least one article. The theory was entertained that perhaps William Cheung spent some time on the Chinese mainland while out of favour with the HK authorities, and that was the cause of the apparent similarities between TWC and HFY. This "theory" is pretty much dead, especially since both Garrett Gee and William Cheung denied any link. While discredited, IMO it is still far more credible than the Leung Bik TWC story.

Benny himself appears to have moved on from HFY being the "truest of the true" to Black Flag/Eng Chun being the "secret innermost circle of the truest of the true".

I haven't looked at Rick's website for a while but i may well have that story on it, still. Cringeworthy perhaps, but no more (and perhaps less) so than some of the other offerings in the websites of WC peers, including that of his own teacher.

You're training in a glass kwoon. Be careful should you decide to throw stones.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Incredible post - and as usual...very entertaining as well. :D

[chusauli]

Andrew! Love that! LOL! Great post!