Question for Chinese Speakers

[HumbleWCGuy]

I had spoken to a friend from Malaysia. She only speaks Cantonese. She seemed to suggest that Cantonese wasn't as formal as Mandarin. Would it be common for Cantonese speakers to name things in Mandarin to indicate formality?

[David Jamieson]

I had spoken to a friend from Malaysia. She only speaks Cantonese. She seemed to suggest that Cantonese wasn't as formal as Mandarin. Would it be common for Cantonese speakers to name things in Mandarin to indicate formality?

only if they didn't have a canto word for it. lol

mandarin (putonghua) is common speech. Most people in CHina, regardless of dialect will likely be bilingual with their regional dialect (cantonese, toisanese, shanghaiese, etc etc) and putonghua.

[GeneChing]

That was a big issue for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=327) in China. Here you had this classic story being delivered by native Cantonese speakers. It was compared to Shakespeare with a country accent. Nevertheless, many scholars believe that Cantonese is closer to ancient Chinese. I'm told this is based upon ancient poetry, which allegedly sounds better in Cantonese than in Mandarin.

Mandarin is the dominant language and Cantonese will default to it especially with newer terms. But then, some Chinese speakers default to English too. A case and point is that Hong Kong Cantonese speakers will say "Yes Sir!" in English, fallout from being a colony of the crown for sure.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That was a big issue for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=327) in China. Here you had this classic story being delivered by native Cantonese speakers. It was compared to Shakespeare with a country accent. Nevertheless, many scholars believe that Cantonese is closer to ancient Chinese. I'm told this is based upon ancient poetry, which allegedly sounds better in Cantonese than in Mandarin.

Mandarin is the dominant language and Cantonese will default to it especially with newer terms. But then, some Chinese speakers default to English too. A case and point is that Hong Kong Cantonese speakers will say "Yes Sir!" in English, fallout from being a colony of the crown for sure.

I was just curious, my system uses a Mandarin derived name but most of the terminology is all Cantonese. My instructor said that his teacher, a Chinese man, referred to Wing Chun as Yunn Chun or, closer to the Yale tanscription Yong Chun. My instructor started calling it Wing Chun so that people would know what it was.

[GeneChing]

That's a huge topic, you know. Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Yongchun, it's very confusing. But that's a bit of a different issue than I thought you were discussing initially as it's all written the same in Chinese - 詠春. This is more about romanization, and with Wing Chun, that's another can of worms. ;)

[hskwarrior]

same thing with choy lee fut....

Tsai Li Fo,

Cai Li Fo

Choy, Choi, lee, lay, lei, li, fut, fat, fo.

[Eddie]

Different areas will also pronounce things differently. Even when speaking Putonghua, people will revert to using their native accent to pronounce the words. This is the same in English, when I saw “Water” or “Hot” it sounds different to when an American say “Water” or “Hot”, but it’s the same word. As Gene said, the text is the same.

Mandarin is the “official” language of china, so you would find allot of info in that language. During the cultural revolution many people were moved from their native areas and were settled in different areas of china. Families were split up, and often people were put in areas where there weren’t others from their own hometowns or regions that would speak the same language. So many people married others from other regions and eventually their children and grand children all ended up changing language. I have friends whos grand parents were Cantonese, but now the whole family only speaks Mandarin (or even the local language of my area). If you go to Shenzhen, you will note, although its right next to Hong Kong, you will still find a very big portion of Mandarin speakers (in my opinion, more Putonghua than Cantonse).

But for some reason, Kung Fu terms still sound better (to me) in Cantonese, although I think Mandarin girls sound much more sexier than Cantonese girls.

If you are planning to ever go to china, then Cantonese wont do you much good unless you stick to those areas.

[Eddie]

same thing with choy lee fut....

Tsai Li Fo,

Cai Li Fo

Choy, Choi, lee, lay, lei, li, fut, fat, fo.


cai li fo is the correct and official pinyin way to write 蔡李佛

Hong Kong and Taiwan will probaly in the future revert to using standard pinyin for all chinese text. Cantonese will become spoken and written (in hanzi) but they will use putonghua pinyin to "romanise"

[TenTigers]

That was a big issue for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=327) in China. Here you had this classic story being delivered by native Cantonese speakers. It was compared to Shakespeare with a country accent. Nevertheless, many scholars believe that Cantonese is closer to ancient Chinese. I'm told this is based upon ancient poetry, which allegedly sounds better in Cantonese than in Mandarin.
.

Many Mandarins are condescending toward Cantonese like that, which is funny.
Isn't that like saying an African classic sounds better in German?
Mandarin is the language of the Chings who occupied China, just as the Germans occupy South Africa.
I still know some Cantonese who refer to Mandarins as Chings.

[GeneChing]

I'm a Ching, not a Qing. Actually, in Mandarin, I'm a Chen. The Ching comes from transliteration of the Hakka pronunciation. :p

The Choy Lay Fut/Califo situation is similar, but not the quite the same, as it doesn't have the same longstanding battle of trademarking the spellings like Wing Tsun. ;)

[David Jamieson]

Chinese and Indian civilizations being the oldest, naturally have multitudes of mutually unintelligible dialects. Mao recognized this and mandated putonghua into existence and enforced it's teachings across the country.

probably one of the few wise things he did to attempt unity over a generational learning model.

[Eddie]

and funny enough, Mao never spoke putonghua. His first public speech where he declared the founding of the Peoples Republic of China, was in the hunan dialect.

China needs a standard language. The different local languages are confusing and difficult to hear.

[TenTigers]

I vote Yiddish.

[Eddie]

yo ten tigers.... you know that its not South Africa that was German occupied, but South WEST Africa (Namibia) ;). South Africa was Dutch and British.
:rolleyes:

just saying.

Yiddish is ok by me. its like english, but every 2nd word ends with ... gewitchz... no?

Tengevitch tigergevitchz

[omarthefish]

And furthermore:



Mandarin is the language of the Chings who occupied China, just as the Germans occupy South Africa.


....is patently false.

The word "mandarin" may have it's etymology in the Qing dynasty but the language is not Qing derived at all. The language of the Qing dynasty is "Manzuyu" which is now actually a nearly extinct dialect. "Mandarin" is not called "mandarin" in Chinese. The language that eventually evolved into Mandarin was called "guan hua"官话。 It was made widespread by the Qing's but was not their native language. It's an artificial combination of northern dialects created for government workers so that officials trained in Beijing could be assigned to work in any province of the country.

Guanhua (lit: language of government officials) over time became known as Putonghua (common language) or Hanyu (language of the Han Chinese) because it is based on the native tongue of....NOT the Manchurian invaders but rather instead on the Han people of northern China.

The term "Mandarin" comes from the fact that those in government, those speaking "guan hua" at the time the west started interacting heavily with China, the Manchuran's happen to be in power. "Man" (Chinese for "Manchurian" and
"Da Ren" (Chinese for an important public official. lit "big man")

History of Guan Hua:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh/%E5%AE%98%E8%AF%9Dh
http://baike.baidu.com/view/295982.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese

Manchurian, in contrast, is not even in the same linguistic family. It's more closely related to Mongolian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_language
Here is an example of Manchurian writing:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Manju_gisun.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Manju_gisun.png

[mawali]

Mandarin is the language of the Chings who occupied China Not so! The Manchu (Qing) were foreigners when they entered the Han homeland. Former horse steppe peoples, as they became more sedentary, they began to adopt a 'civilized' outlook and adopted many Han customs and intermarried with the locals. Their allies were the Mongols, in most cases hence the favourism of Buddhism within the Manchu worldview. Their language is a Turkic??-Mongol base and perhaps it was integration/development of putonghua with Turkic??-Mongol structure that made the language as we know today.

It may be that the North vs South crisis that elevates the language problem but it ixists in many cultures. Being the center/industrial base/major capital of a country carries a "psychic" crown as in the Beijing (this case) being the capital, carreis more weight in the language realm.
Using Italy as an example, you have the same North vs South dynamic! Northerners are transplanted Germans integrated into the Italian landscape and therefore more industrious than the Southerners, who like to "waste time" (allegedly), speak terribly, drink wine like water, chase women and like to lie in the shade! Northerns, of any locale, are rude, serious, formal, etc while the Southerners are easy going, smile alot, take their time on accomplishing tasks, etc.

[hskwarrior]

My Students girlfriend is Mandarin from Shanghai.....she literally hates everything Cantonese, and actually fights alot with my student cause everything we do in Chinatown in Cantonese.

Actually, personally, i don't like Mandarin language. I know it has its place, but to me its for woman.....its toooooo.......swishy shwah........

[Eddie]

tell that to 1.5 billion people

[hskwarrior]

i know people went with the flow.....i still prefer the cantonese way though.

i like cantonese girls better as well. will NEVER date a mandarin girl.....EVER!

[Drake]

tell that to 1.5 billion people

If 1.5 billion people jumped off a bridge, would you? :D

[Eddie]

i know, but least i can communicate with more than half the planet ;)

point is, learning cantonese will just take you so far. In china they dont really speak cantonese outside of guandong and a few other places.

but this is not about which lingo is better. that would be silly. :rolleyes:

I speak a dialect of Dutch/Flemish, which is hardly spoken elsewhere in the world. When I speak, all my dutch and felimish buddies knows instantaneously that its different than theirs. I think our language is much cooler and sounds sexier, but that doesnt make an y difference to anything else.

:D

BTW - Omars post was really cool. I learned about the origins of the name Mandarin. Many of the students asked me before, and I thought it was just some kind of word. Thanks Omar.

[omarthefish]

Much obliged.

Here it is in Chinese:

满大人

满(man) 大(da) 人(ren)

p.s.
etymology online disagrees with me.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mandarin
The pronunciation of the word may just be a really incredible coincidence.

"Chinese official," 1580s, via Port. mandarim or Du. mandorijn from Malay mantri, from Hindi mantri "councilor, minister of state," from Skt. mantri, nom. of mantrin- "advisor," from mantra "counsel," from PIE base *men- "to think" (see mind). Form influenced in Portuguese by mandar "to command, order." Used generically for the several grades of Chinese officials; sense of "chief dialect of Chinese" (spoken by officials and educated people) is from c.1600. The type of small, deep-colored orange so called from 1771, from resemblance of its color to that of robes worn by mandarins.
I may have to eat my words. Looks like it actually comes from the root verb "mandar" - to order

I feel stupid.

[Eddie]

yeah i got it last night. thanks man

[omarthefish]

meh.

At least my main point stands which is that the language has nothing to do with the Manchurians. Those guys still speak an altaic language.

:o

[mawali]

Much obliged.

Here it is in Chinese:

满大人

满(man) 大(da) 人(ren)

p.s.
etymology online disagrees with me.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mandarin
The pronunciation of the word may just be a really incredible coincidence.

I may have to eat my words. Looks like it actually comes from the root verb "mandar" - to order


Linguistically, one MAY see a pattern!

Big (da) man (literal-no translation) people Leader / Authority as in mandar!

[omarthefish]

No.

I have to completely reverse my position from that original post. The coincidence seems persuasive at first glance and I actually discovered my mistake on a Chinese discussion board with the topic title, "Mandarin does not mean Man-Da-Ren!!!" (Mandarin 并不是满大人的意思！！！)

The Manchurians have been called "Man" by the Han Chinese since way before the Portuguese came over and started calling anyone "Mandarim". Once you take a look at the timelines and compare the two arguments, it's really clear that the Chinese phonetic coincidence is just that...a coincidence. It's instinctively persuasive but doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I'm sorry that I repeated the myth couple posts back.