sparring stills...

[k gledhill]

look like attached fighting :D how many 'tan' saos can you see ;)
http://www.philippbayer.info/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&Itemid=316&func=viewcategory&catid=18

[t_niehoff]

look like attached fighting :D how many 'tan' saos can you see ;)
http://www.philippbayer.info/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&Itemid=316&func=viewcategory&catid=18

I can tell by looking at the photos that wasn't sparring. At least not realistic sparring. Since you don't seem to know what sparring is, let me explain -- it is when both you and your opponent are really trying to hit (not touch), where you NEED protective gear (or you lose teeth, get cut, etc.).

I'm beginning to understand you guys and your "real fighting" now: your sparring is so unrealistic that an actual fight is very, very different.

What that looked like was slappy play-fighting fantasy foo.

Thank you for showing me what you think sparring is.

Here is what I think sparring is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aieHs3CJJB0&playnext_from=TL&videos=bmFp_8YazdU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNwA4Cs1y-I&playnext_from=TL&videos=SFi1blatE7s

[HumbleWCGuy]

Slap fu slop or not it was WC. Was it attached or not?

[goju]

I can tell by looking at the photos that wasn't sparring. At least not realistic sparring. Since you don't seem to know what sparring is, let me explain -- it is when both you and your opponent are really trying to hit (not touch), where you NEED protective gear (or you lose teeth, get cut, etc.).

hows the "official internet forum expert" campaign going? ... good?:D

[k gledhill]

:D from Terence it doesnt matter ....;) twitch twitch, he's missing the point. Its a VT sparring session to help develop VT's techniques...bare handed, go figure , no gloves. its a controlled session, for distances, entry, techniques etc...rather than a ygkym attached rolling control session of BS.

for , Mr. Twitch its a 'mantra' brainwash time....sorry T Ive seen and experienced your version first hand :D

Philipp is coming out with a book soon ...we can compare notes and exchange ideas.

[t_niehoff]

Slap fu slop or not it was WC. Was it attached or not?

What does it matter if fantasy foo is attached or not?

[goju]

What does it matter if fantasy foo is attached or not?

how can you accuse anyone here of living in a fantasy land when you think sparring is the same thing as fighting? LOL:D:p

[t_niehoff]

:D from Terence it doesnt matter ....;) twitch twitch, he's missing the point. Its a VT sparring session to help develop VT's techniques...

for , Mr. Twitch its a 'mantra' brainwash time....sorry T Ive seen and experienced your version first hand :D

Philipp is coming out with a book soon ...we can compare notes and exchange ideas.'

That wasn't sparring -- that was playing around. Playing around develops bad habits and fantasy notions.

BTW, how come Gary Lam, who was one of WSL's assistant instructors, doesn't seem to share Bayer's approach?

[t_niehoff]

how can you accuse anyone here of living in a fantasy land when you think sparring is the same thing as fighting? LOL:D:p

To develop any skill, you need to practice doing that skill, right?

To get better at swimming you need to actually practice swimming, right?

To get better at surfing you need to actually practice surfing, right?

To get better at fighting you need to practice fighting, right?

How do you practice fighting?

It's called sparring -- sparring is practicing your fighting.

So, sparring is fighting.

QED.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What does it matter if fantasy foo is attached or not?

Since you believe that all WCers live in fantasy land except for a select few. It makes more sense to accept fantasy sparring as representative of WC in your eyes.

[t_niehoff]

Since you believe that all WCers live in fantasy land except for a select few. It makes more sense to accept fantasy sparring as representative of WC in your eyes.

It's easy to leave fantasy-land -- just get out and spar with some good people.

That wasn't sparring. That people call it sparring tells you they are in fantasy land.

Unfortunately, many people in WCK are living in fantasy land.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are degrees of sparring and there have always been degrees.
Not every sparring session is a full contact one or even a hard contact one.
Especially if you are doing bare hand.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's easy to leave fantasy-land -- just get out and spar with some good people.

That wasn't sparring. That people call it sparring tells you they are in fantasy land.

Unfortunately, many people in WCK are living in fantasy land.

I am not disagreeing with you on either count, I am only pointing out that the "sparring," fantasy or not is representative of WC. For example, there is fantasy TKD and then their is the real TKD, I can watch bad TKD and know that it is a kicking art, that they prefer side stances, distance fighting, and so on.

[k gledhill]

To develop any skill, you need to practice doing that skill, right?

To get better at swimming you need to actually practice swimming, right?

To get better at surfing you need to actually practice surfing, right?

To get better at fighting you need to practice fighting, right?

How do you practice fighting?

It's called sparring -- sparring is practicing your fighting.

So, sparring is fighting.

QED.


you dont get out much do you...i wonder who's living in the dream world ..;)


fighting for me is intent to do as much damage in a short time as possible....sparring is training the ability to make the aforementioned that much easier, by USING each other for entry , timing, distances, techniques....if I used full force on you terence during a sparring match, would you spar with me every class ?

I have extensive :rolleyes: experience doing 'fighting' :D and all the sparring does it make it easier for the self-defense . I dont ask a guy/s who's advancing on me to fight , "what are your qualifications for me to fight you ? " before hitting them, in self-defense.
Think about it Terence, how many guys LEAVE the gyms they are in and go out into the real world...do you think that makes everyone who gets in a fight a 'scrub'...?
Is Dale a scrub if he gets in a barfight with a bouncer ?
If someone lands a lucky punch on you, does that diminish your ability, are you demoted to 'scrub' ? :D

[goju]

so then since sparring is fighting to you that makes you ( in the la la la you dwell in) a fighter?:D:rolleyes::D

[wkmark]

look like attached fighting :D how many 'tan' saos can you see ;)
http://www.philippbayer.info/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&Itemid=316&func=viewcategory&catid=18

Nice Pictures. I have watched Sihing Philip's Video and he is great at what he does. I remember vaguely when he was first training with Sifu Wong Shun Leung back in the very, very early 80's. Around 1983..1984 ish.

[Frost]

'

That wasn't sparring -- that was playing around. Playing around develops bad habits and fantasy notions.

BTW, how come Gary Lam, who was one of WSL's assistant instructors, doesn't seem to share Bayer's approach?

true when sparring without protection or no contact bad habbits can be formed, i have lost count of the number of times i have seen this happen even in good MMA and thai gyms (hell i have done it myself) you need an appropriate amount of contact to keep both sides honest and you simply don't get that with barehand sparring

[Frost]

There are degrees of sparring and there have always been degrees.
Not every sparring session is a full contact one or even a hard contact one.
Especially if you are doing bare hand.

true but don't you agree its easier to keep things real and in perspective when you are using gloves....i find people are too nice bare handed and that leds to sloppy technique and bad habbits, even with MMA gloves on people are more realistic even if you keep the contact levels low

[CFT]

Philipp is coming out with a book soon ...we can compare notes and exchange ideas.English or German? Or both?

[sanjuro_ronin]

true but don't you agree its easier to keep things real and in perspective when you are using gloves....i find people are too nice bare handed and that leds to sloppy technique and bad habbits, even with MMA gloves on people are more realistic even if you keep the contact levels low

Depends on what you are working on and the experience level of the people involved.

[goju]

im usually sceptical of people who go on about sparirng full out regularly where youre "really" trying to hit each other

mainly because their would be a lot of people unconcious on the mat:rolleyes::D

i agree with frosts glove comment above

[wkmark]

'

That wasn't sparring -- that was playing around. Playing around develops bad habits and fantasy notions.

BTW, how come Gary Lam, who was one of WSL's assistant instructors, doesn't seem to share Bayer's approach?

Since I am not familiar with your type of WC T_Niehoff, so I can't really comment on your experience or expertise, however have you tried this type of "Gwoh Sau?"

It's a drill to actually pick up bad habits and to work on footwork, entry, distance etc. It's controlled and if not controlled you end up hurting your partner which ends up with No one to Gwoh Sau with. Recently we had 2 kung fu brother working on "gwoh sau" and it happened that one got hit pretty hard in the nose which resulted in surgery. So Controlling and working on various aspects of Ving Tsun is what you are seeing in these pictures.

As for Sihing Gary lam and Sihing Philip Bayer, they are both great in the WSL Ving Tsun line. I have respect for both of them. However they are both different in sizes and height, thus their way of applying Ving Tsun is different based on their personal style. What Sihing Gary can do may not be what Sihing Philip can do and vice versa.

I would like to ask where you get the idea that Sihing Gary does not seem to share Sihing Philip's approach?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Focusing on the actual stills I do see one major problem.
The chin is up way too much and way too many times and that is NOT a good thing.
They really need to work on that.

[Frost]

Depends on what you are working on and the experience level of the people involved.

agreed but when you hear coaches in good gyms shouting at their fighters to keep it realistic even though you are going light you have to wonder what is going on at gyms that do a majority of their sparring like this, your chin up comment is a perfect example of bad habbits formed in this kind of enviroment

[Frost]

im usually sceptical of people who go on about sparirng full out regularly where youre "really" trying to hit each other

mainly because their would be a lot of people unconcious on the mat:rolleyes::D

i agree with frosts glove comment above

it doesn,t and indeed shouldn't be full out all the time, hell not even most of the time, what it should be is enough contact to keep bad habbits in check and ensure you develop good form under pressure.

Its funny but if you visit enough gyms its the good ones that spar more often than not at a controlled pace, and the bad ones where people go too hard and too often (now if you are on the gyms team and getting ready for a fight then it will be different)

[sanjuro_ronin]

agreed but when you hear coaches in good gyms shouting at their fighters to keep it realistic even though you are going light you have to wonder what is going on at gyms that do a majority of their sparring like this, your chin up comment is a perfect example of bad habbits formed in this kind of enviroment

I agree, in kyokushin, when we put the gloves on and hit to the head, many people got rude awkenings.
Sometimes we did open hand to the face when bare handed and a good slap was enough to get the message across.
BUT, there is nothing like getting your lights out to wake you up to the realist of fighting.

I see the chin up as being very symptomtic of WC because they tend to not use overhands and cross, which make you pay for the chin up issue.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it doesn,t and indeed shouldn't be full out all the time, hell not even most of the time, what it should be is enough contact to keep bad habbits in check and ensure you develop good form under pressure.

Its funny but if you visit enough gyms its the good ones that spar more often than not at a controlled pace, and the bad ones where people go too hard and too often (now if you are on the gyms team and getting ready for a fight then it will be different)

Correct, hard enough to keep it real.
No room for slappy-dappy strikes.

[goju]

it doesn,t and indeed shouldn't be full out all the time, hell not even most of the time, what it should be is enough contact to keep bad habbits in check and ensure you develop good form under pressure.

Its funny but if you visit enough gyms its the good ones that spar more often than not at a controlled pace, and the bad ones where people go too hard and too often

exactly!

the gym i was at was run by one of the supposed best mma coaches out there and every body went eh about 60 percent during sparring every once in a while it would be lighter or a bit harder for a round or two

but no one was ever going full out if it got a bit rough they would tell you to cool it

heck you can if see most of the sparring they show on tuf and see its relatively tame

[wkmark]

true but don't you agree its easier to keep things real and in perspective when you are using gloves....i find people are too nice bare handed and that leds to sloppy technique and bad habbits, even with MMA gloves on people are more realistic even if you keep the contact levels low

I agree to some extent of this. When you are fighting bare handed, yes sometimes that may lead to sloppy technique and bad habbits, but it's up to who your partner or the third person watching on the side to tell you. Also thats what videos are for. However the good thing about fighting bare handed is that is does somehow tell you how it feels to get hit bare handed. When we "gwoh sau" barehanded we experience broken bones.. bloody lip and bruises, however it's also a reminder to us that fighting HURTS. You are not going for the points and you not trying to make it look good. You are there to do damage.

As for sparring with MMA gloves, If i was to go low contact on MMA gloves, i might as well not wear them as they don't make a difference personally to me. If I was to wear them, be sure to know that I will be wearing a full face mask. The one that covers the entire face. However there is a good side and bad side to this, good side is, you can hit as hard as you want and not do THAT bad of a damage to your hand, but the downside is that after a while you get soo caught up in the ALL out sparring, you end up trading blows because there is no pain with getting hit in the face. You and you only will need to know when is a good time to stop it because if it wasn't for the face mask you'd be all bloodied up.

As for using boxing gloves, the lightest i can use without causing serious injury are the 10 oz and even THAT have to be careful. However with 10 oz gloves you have a piece of pad around your hand that serves to reduce your punch damage as well as give you a sort of defensive padding. Since you are both wearing gloves, there are some restrictions to what you can and cannot do ving tsun wise. But yes you can hit full power and Yes if you get a good hit, you will start seeing stars.

So all in all, there are issues with all the above, however I personally think that it is important to train all of the above. These are all important aspect of Ving Tsun training. But keep in mind that EVEN with all of the above, nothing comes close to real street fighting with some random people. The adrenaline rush, the heart beating faster, the sweaty palms.

[JPinAZ]

Here is what I think sparring is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aieHs...os=bmFp_8YazdU

Correct. And, there is a difference between sparring and fighting. This clip is only one of them, the other is fighting.


To get better at fighting you need to practice fighting, right?

How do you practice fighting?

It's called sparring -- sparring is practicing your fighting.

Exactly - it's practicing, or prepping, for fighting.


So, sparring is fighting.

QED.

WRONG.
Your logic is so misguided. Sparring does not equal fighting (fighting being the act of being in a fight)

If you think what is in the above clip with Tyson is 'fighting', then you have no friggin idea what you are talking about, nor what a fight is. It's obvious you have only sparred in your life (if even that).

FWIW, that was light sparring in the clip. Good light sparring, but very far from 'fighting'. It wasn't even full-on sparring, which is why Tyson wasn't wearing protective head gear.

[anerlich]

Kev, I'm presuming the reaction you got was not exactly a shock. :D

[k gledhill]

English or German? Or both?

good question !:D

[k gledhill]

Kev, I'm presuming the reaction you got was not exactly a shock. :D


the 'faat' twitch from the twitchmaster...no, no shock...whats shown is VT sparring VT techniques...we fight bare handed so we train with...barehands. Think inch punch magnified 10-12 inches with body momentum added on :D we do a lot of 'contact' for force transfer in lat sao chit chung , during chi-sao, proving force or no force.
Light sparring takes us to another dimension of 2 bodies in motion and trying to transfer that force into the other guy, with distances, good arm positions, close for good extension through the target, not 'air' tag....angling, attacking with explosive entry....theres a lot to train, what most see is surface hands, open palm, not good or bad elbows, good or bad distances....

I sparred in vt class for 15-20 years at the end of each class, sometimes we would use light gloves and full face masks like kendo , chicken wire over the eyes for eye strikes :D...I got 'caught ' with shots more from bad vision wearing the frikin head gear :D...the gloves are a funny thing, even though we where supposed to spar lightly, we would assume gloves would lessen the force ...NOT !:D:D it was to further protect the partner in a heavier engagement..

In the class we can vary roles , intensity, movements , to work the VT ideas, tactics, cutting across a guy, cutting off the 'ring' ,etc....intensity can change in a heartbeat.
If it gets to much for anyone they just back off.
Anyone can wail punches in and call it 'whatever' :D we try to work precision under varying degrees of pressure. LOOKING for mistakes that appear and working them out..isolating them and seeing why they show up in sparring....

any moron can land a heavy punch, skill comes from control of your strikes and the force in them , skill is shown not by how much you do...but how little.
to me anyway. I was always taught control. Once guys reach the dummy they learn this control factor.

we have some movies too, but i will try to get some 'worthy' of the scathing critic, twitch , twitch :D:D:D

as for the 'real' effects of a full force punch landing on a guy...this is something reserved for protecting myself. Its never failed me in 'reality'...many , many times....simple stuff really.

I could care less that Terence calls guys scrubs...scrubs will kill you, maim you, glass you, stab, cut, whet, kick your head off your shoulders......

Id like to see him dirty clinch a group of squaddies out for a weekend drink up ; )

[wkmark]

the 'faat' twitch from the twitchmaster...no, no shock...whats shown is VT sparring VT techniques...we fight bare handed so we train with...barehands. Think inch punch magnified 10-12 inches with body momentum added on :D we do a lot of 'contact' for force transfer in lat sao chit chung , during chi-sao, proving force or no force.
Light sparring takes us to another dimension of 2 bodies in motion and trying to transfer that force into the other guy, with distances, good arm positions, close for good extension through the target, not 'air' tag....angling, attacking with explosive entry....theres a lot to train, what most see is surface hands, open palm, not good or bad elbows, good or bad distances....

I sparred in vt class for 15-20 years at the end of each class, sometimes we would use light gloves and full face masks like kendo , chicken wire over the eyes for eye strikes :D...I got 'caught ' with shots more from bad vision wearing the frikin head gear :D...the gloves are a funny thing, even though we where supposed to spar lightly, we would assume gloves would lessen the force ...NOT !:D:D it was to further protect the partner in a heavier engagement..

In the class we can vary roles , intensity, movements , to work the VT ideas, tactics, cutting across a guy, cutting off the 'ring' ,etc....intensity can change in a heartbeat.
If it gets to much for anyone they just back off.
Anyone can wail punches in and call it 'whatever' :D we try to work precision under varying degrees of pressure. LOOKING for mistakes that appear and working them out..isolating them and seeing why they show up in sparring....

any moron can land a heavy punch, skill comes from control of your strikes and the force in them , skill is shown not by how much you do...but how little.
to me anyway. I was always taught control. Once guys reach the dummy they learn this control factor.

we have some movies too, but i will try to get some 'worthy' of the scathing critic, twitch , twitch :D:D:D

as for the 'real' effects of a full force punch landing on a guy...this is something reserved for protecting myself. Its never failed me in 'reality'...many , many times....simple stuff really.

I could care less that Terence calls guys scrubs...scrubs will kill you, maim you, glass you, stab, cut, whet, kick your head off your shoulders......

Id like to see him dirty clinch a group of squaddies out for a weekend drink up ; )

Next time I am in NY, I would love to stop by where you train so we can compare notes. =)

[k gledhill]

sure drop by ...wed 6-8pm