Wing Chun Wooden Man training, useful or not? [Archive]

SAAMAG

05-05-2010, 01:24 PM

Most people don't realize the actual purpose for the wooden dummy to even answer this question properly anyway.

On the surface, it's just another way to practice the movements of wing chun. With the dummy you have an instrument that can provide you with subtle feedback on your stance and structure.

From the neija perspective, there's a reason why it's not hit at full power, and there's a reason why it's not used to "condition" the arms. The reason is because the dummy is meant as a tool to develop a natural heavy hand (or internal power) You tap it naturally...projecting the intent of your energy into the center of the dummy. Even the movements on the dummy's arms should be directed toward the center / base. From this perspective the dummy is meant to further ingrain the movements of wing chun hand forms, structure alignment, and footwork like the saam gok ma. It develops soft power.

From the wujia perspective, the dummy can be used to condition the body, harden the fists, arms and legs. This type of training can give you a cardiovascular workout, it can toughen up the skin, and in essence becomes very much like a heavy bag, but with the arms and leg providing an obstruction to work around.

All in all however, the dummy is still a dead tool. Using it requires use of ones imagination because you're not getting any true stimulus for action with the dummy. So while the dummy can help with structure, stepping, muscle memory, skin and bone conditioning, internal power, and the like...it does not help with timing, working off triggers (reaction), or how to counter counters for example. It does not teach you the finer points of fighting interaction, continuous spatial orientation, or recovery from getting hit, for example.

The dummy has its uses...but skill in fighting can be had without using the dummy at all.

Vajramusti

05-05-2010, 01:32 PM

I don't understand the need for this thread. A mook jong is an integral part of wing chun training
in Ip Man wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

Ultimatewingchun

05-05-2010, 04:52 PM

Yes, it's useful. Sharpens some technique, and most of all, it helps toughen forearms. And if you pad the WD - you can punch, palm strike, elbow and knee pretty hard - which is also a good toughener for those areas.

But all that said, I wouldn't recommend spending too much time working with the WD (maybe once a week or so)...because training with a live partner is waaaay more beneficial in its realism.

Knifefighter

05-05-2010, 05:25 PM

Counter-productive and develops bad habits.

SAAMAG

05-05-2010, 05:34 PM

HumbleWCGuy

05-05-2010, 05:47 PM

I think that the real issue is whether the time could be better spent. If you spend 20-40 minutes on a dummy per week, that is 5-10 rounds on the bags, sparring, or drilling out of movement.

Knifefighter

05-05-2010, 05:47 PM

I agree it's an antiquated learning tool, and that fighting skill can be attained without it...but how SPECIFICALLY is it counter productive and what SPECIFIC bad habits are developed?

It ingrains counterproductive movements into the neuromusculular pathways that are not useful in real application against resisting opponents.

As far as what specific habits, pretty much each one done in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSqeqNOlxOQ

All that is doing is teaching someone what not to do when fighting.

Watch a boxer hitting a heavy bag. Then watch him in a fight. His movements and strikes will be very similar to what is being done on the bag. The bag reinforces the neuromuscular pathways needed for fighting.

Watch a WC practitioner fight. His fighting will look nothing like you saw on that clip. The Mook Jong reinforces counterproductive movements that cannot be realistically performed in full-contact fighting.

SAAMAG

05-05-2010, 06:03 PM

Wow. I wish I could unwatch that clip. He's even doing it wrong from a wing chun standpoint (at least the way I know it). He's banging the arms sideways and has no intent in his movment, no power from the legs/ground, he's not there mentally either.

I understand where your perspective is now and concede that you're not going to learn natural fighting movement using the dummy. But at the same time that's not the goal of using the dummy either. The dummy is a form set that uses a apparatus as a training aid. Later, you apply the dummy movements with real partners, where you "make the dummy movements come to life".

I don't suppose you knew about that part? The dummy work is just part of the process

Knifefighter

05-05-2010, 06:10 PM

I don't suppose you knew about that part? The dummy work is just part of the process

Yes, I know about that part. That's like learning to do an arm bar with your legs apart, the opponent's elbow down, and holding onto the wrong part of his arm. When you have to learn to apply it for real, you have to unlearn everything you've practiced. Makes no sense to learn bad habits in the beginning.

SAAMAG

05-05-2010, 06:47 PM

Yes, I know about that part. That's like learning to do an arm bar with your legs apart, the opponent's elbow down, and holding onto the wrong part of his arm. When you have to learn to apply it for real, you have to unlearn everything you've practiced. Makes no sense to learn bad habits in the beginning.

No it'd be like learning to apply an armbar on a grappling dummy and then on a real person.

Matrix

05-05-2010, 06:52 PM

I don't understand the need for this thread. A mook jong is an integral part of wing chun training
in Ip Man wing chun.

joy chaudhuri Joy, I totally agree.
My Wing Chun is not dictated by polls.

Ultimatewingchun

05-05-2010, 07:14 PM

Yeah, okay Dale, leave it to you to pick out a WD vid like that.

You want to see a really good example of how to use the WD? Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdn55U2vDY

k gledhill

05-05-2010, 07:14 PM

It ingrains counterproductive movements into the neuromusculular pathways that are not useful in real application against resisting opponents.

As far as what specific habits, pretty much each one done in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSqeqNOlxOQ

All that is doing is teaching someone what not to do when fighting.

Watch a boxer hitting a heavy bag. Then watch him in a fight. His movements and strikes will be very similar to what is being done on the bag. The bag reinforces the neuromuscular pathways needed for fighting.

Watch a WC practitioner fight. His fighting will look nothing like you saw on that clip. The Mook Jong reinforces counterproductive movements that cannot be realistically performed in full-contact fighting.

many are trying to use the wrong ideas, so i agree there...if you think the dummy is 'kwan sao' or 'moves' the your going to end up kickboxing in sparring.:D

Knifefighter

05-05-2010, 07:34 PM

Yeah, okay Dale, leave it to you to pick out a WD vid like that.

You want to see a really good example of how to use the WD? Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdn55U2vDY

Once again showing something that is at the very least a waste of time, and, more likely, something that just ingrains bad habits.

You are right, that's an even better example of how someone doesn't fight.

Knifefighter

05-05-2010, 07:37 PM

No it'd be like learning to apply an armbar on a grappling dummy and then on a real person.

With a grappling dummy, you apply the technique in the same manner you do it for real. Again, watch a sub-grappler apply a tech on the grappling dummy and in comp. The mechanics will be the same... not so with someone who does techs on the Mook Jong and then tries to go full contact.

k gledhill

05-05-2010, 07:48 PM

A holistic approach is taken when doing VT...all aspects are done together to gain the full advantage of each as one develops....not wait 5-10 ? years to touch the dummy. VT is a whole package, drills forms , sparring, weapons...

weapons instill agressiveness from knives, fast footwork, intent to kill or be killed. Poles develop strength of structure, footwork is explosive, ballistic displacement of opponents weapons with sharp displacing force...heard that one before ? alignment, precision of strikes..etc..

A whole approach iow...the dummy is just a part of the abstract way ...

the dummy is trying to be a 'time out' from sparring pressure to work the cycling of arms from attack to defense to attack to defense...each arm rotates into the next...SLT is rotation with cutting along the face of an opponent, NOT aiming at the wooden core..iow where your centerline is aimed is where your opponent is moving.

The elbow positions are being re-enforced in a simple way. Dynamic ballistic displacement is developed by sudden shock of meeting the arms with body and arms together. The Low bong is only 'the same bong as all bongs, just focusing on the sharp slapping force it has to displace arms over ours....fast rotation speeds of the elbow generate this force...try that on a partner for 30 minutes :D ok 3 minutes...:D:D:D 30 seconds...bone to bone ..try 3 seconds...before they forgot to do something :D:D....

VT relies on short sharp focused attacking actions . our alignment is based on elbow control. The dummy serves to be a rigid immovable object with arms ours naturally 'X' as they move along at angles . Entry lines are used on the sides..parallel lines are made to 'track' the opponents movements....we train symmetry of equal ambidextrous abilities so we can simply face a moving target wherever it goes with little thought to 'techniques' to use.....

conditioning is minimal....but a by-product nonetheless.

the height of the dummy is critical....to high and you make long levers that are isolated from your body ...low for re-enforcement of the elbow positions

we can kick the knee repeatedly, ask your partner to try it ? I didnt think so :D

many use the hands to do a lot of work when its the elbows being focused on...arms move so by maintaining our arm control through elbow drills on the dummy, we dont lose the target for 'arms before us' as a distraction...we aim along our line and turn with our arms along our line , facing with, arms aligned along the line....cycling attacking actions always making attacks.

ie high jum strike becomes low bong slapping,
low gaun sao comes back to an aligning tan elbow pre-strike position,,,defensive action to attacking. looks like kwan sao if you stop and pose ;) but fighting doesnt stop like this to do a kwan sao ...we dont use it anyway :D
after tan turn to lowering huen jum strike and the bong becomes a tan strike in pre-strike position....

we use double palms [po pai] to push guys back into striking flowing attacking range..iow they cover up and we lose a target to hit we shove them sharply, but only far enough to be able to control their distance to our next attack...iow push them into your strike range ...the dummy allows continuous shoving of a relatively solid object, making your shoves more focused and equalized so each arm is aligned and the body used in momentum or from stationary start, stop scenarios to avoid clinching and getting tied up with a guy who drops his head down coveing up.

throat strikes can be done repeatedly along with jut sao for full extension of force into the wood...timing and facing can be done to just to get the push pull action right....

the dummy is a tool like a heavy bag or a pad work, you do it for a purpose and move on to other stuff to work the WHOLE idea....fighting.

Knifefighter

05-05-2010, 07:55 PM

A holistic approach is taken when doing VT...all aspects are done together to gain the full advantage of each as one develops....not wait 5-10 ? years to touch the dummy. VT is a whole package, drills forms , sparring, weapons...

weapons instill agressiveness from knives, fast footwork, intent to kill or be killed. Poles develop strength of structure, footwork is explosive, ballistic displacement of opponents weapons with sharp displacing force...heard that one before ? alignment, precision of strikes..etc..

A whole approach iow...the dummy is just a part of the abstract way ...

the dummy is trying to be a 'time out' from sparring pressure to work the cycling of arms from attack to defense to attack to defense...each arm rotates into the next...SLT is rotation with cutting along the face of an opponent, NOT aiming at the wooden core..iow where your centerline is aimed is where your opponent is moving.

The elbow positions are being re-enforced in a simple way. Dynamic ballistic displacement is developed by sudden shock of meeting the arms with body and arms together. The Low bong is only 'the same bong as all bongs, just focusing on the sharp slapping force it has to displace arms over ours....fast rotation speeds of the elbow generate this force...try that on a partner for 30 minutes :D ok 3 minutes...:D:D:D 30 seconds...bone to bone ..try 3 seconds...before they forgot to do something :D:D....

VT relies on short sharp focused attacking actions . our alignment is based on elbow control. The dummy serves to be a rigid immovable object with arms ours naturally 'X' as they move along at angles . Entry lines are used on the sides..parallel lines are made to 'track' the opponents movements....we train symmetry of equal ambidextrous abilities so we can simply face a moving target wherever it goes with little thought to 'techniques' to use.....

conditioning is minimal....but a by-product nonetheless.

the height of the dummy is critical....to high and you make long levers that are isolated from your body ...low for re-enforcement of the elbow positions

we can kick the knee repeatedly, ask your partner to try it ? I didnt think so :D

many use the hands to do a lot of work when its the elbows being focused on...arms move so by maintaining our arm control through elbow drills on the dummy, we dont lose the target for 'arms before us' as a distraction...we aim along our line and turn with our arms along our line , facing with, arms aligned along the line....cycling attacking actions always making attacks.

ie high jum strike becomes low bong slapping,
low gaun sao comes back to an aligning tan elbow pre-strike position,,,defensive action to attacking. looks like kwan sao if you stop and pose ;) but fighting doesnt stop like this to do a kwan sao ...we dont use it anyway :D
after tan turn to lowering huen jum strike and the bong becomes a tan strike in pre-strike position....

we use double palms [po pai] to push guys back into striking flowing attacking range..iow they cover up and we lose a target to hit we shove them sharply, but only far enough to be able to control their distance to our next attack...iow push them into your strike range ...the dummy allows continuous shoving of a relatively solid object, making your shoves more focused and equalized so each arm is aligned and the body used in momentum or from stationary start, stop scenarios to avoid clinching and getting tied up with a guy who drops his head down coveing up.

throat strikes can be done repeatedly along with jut sao for full extension of force into the wood...timing and facing can be done to just to get the push pull action right....

Oh yeah, this reminded me of the other problem with the MJ.

It puts you into a fantasy realm of what you think should happen, rather than paying attention to what really happens with an opponent.

wkmark

05-05-2010, 08:30 PM

Go get David Peterson's Wooden Dummy DVD and you can figure out for yourself if you think it's useful or not. =)

Ultimatewingchun

05-05-2010, 08:34 PM

Once again showing something that is at the very least a waste of time, and, more likely, something that just ingrains bad habits.

You are right, that's an even better example of how someone doesn't fight.

***NO, once again Dale Frank pretends to know a lot more about wing chun training than he really does know.

Knifefighter

05-05-2010, 08:37 PM

***NO, once again Dale Frank pretends to know a lot more about wing chun training than he really does know.

I know all about WC training. Learn movements that are completely different than the ones you are going to use in fighting.

Prove me wrong. Show him or anyone else fighting like that.

Your own sparring clips pretty much prove the point that you aren't doing anything close to that.

You want to spend your time (or that of your students) doing drills that are absolutely nothing like the movements you are going to use for real? Be my guest.

Ultimatewingchun

05-05-2010, 08:57 PM

Those clips were a partial view of how I fight in a very particular setting. For instance, I hurt my hand throwing a palm strike that caught the guy right in the face - but on the metal bars. Suppose it were bareknuckled? Just take that for instance - and the palm strike stunned him a bit and my hand was fine.

The next move could have easily been something that comes right out of the WD.

Take a second look at William Cheung's vid that I posted as he works the WD. Do you see how often palm strikes show up? Not that I'm saying that palm strikes are necessarily fight enders...but you've got to agree that they are a very close range weapon, yes?

And a followup to a well placed and effective palm strike at that range could easily be something that also comes out of the wooden dummy sequences - because that's the range you're working.

All I'm saying is this, Dale: Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Knifefighter

05-05-2010, 09:04 PM

k gledhill

05-05-2010, 09:43 PM

Oh yeah, this reminded me of the other problem with the MJ.

It puts you into a fantasy realm of what you think should happen, rather than paying attention to what really happens with an opponent.

you dont understand ....so why try to sound like you do ?

Ultimatewingchun

05-05-2010, 09:52 PM

It's not the palm strikes, per se. It's all the b.s. movements that you will never see in a fight. It's also the biomechanics. Your biomechanics while delivering your punches were nothing like those in the clip.

***AND AGAIN, Dale...what you call "biomechanics" and "b.s. movements" I call wing chun fight sequences that you don't necessarily understand - because either you've never seen them before and/or never had them explained or demoed.

Again referring back to my vid with the palm strike (and now I'm referring to both biomechanics AND the actual techniques used): The move against my sparring partner that I performed with my right hand that was immediately followed (near simultaneous would be a more accurate description)...

followed by the palm strike with my left hand...

that "sequence" was no totally spontaneous accident. It comes right out of the WD.

Once again, go back and watch the vid with William Cheung working the WD - and then go watch the clip when I hit the guy with the palm strike.

SAAMAG

05-05-2010, 10:59 PM

It's not the palm strikes, per se. It's all the b.s. movements that you will never see in a fight. It's also the biomechanics. Your biomechanics while delivering your punches were nothing like those in the clip.

Not to mention that even your beloved Alan Orr and Robert Chu use wing chun biomechanics. So there's nothing wrong with the biomechanics themselves, only the person's skill in applying the biomechanics.

In general though, the ability to apply wing chun doesn't lie with the fact that someone is practicing forms, or the muk jong, or knives, or pole. It lies with the fact that certain people ARE NOT practicing application in live settings with proper feedback. Or as Terence thinks...against MMA elite fighters (or the gym equivelent apparently).

The muk yan jong is just another training apparatus for solo work and for specific ends. Kinda like a speed bag in boxing and the throwing and grappling dummies in Judo and BJJ. Yet because these apparatus's are not exactly the same as real life--some alterations in technique needs to be made; and by your logic boxers should stop punching speedbags, judoka should stop throwing dummies, and grapplers should stop applying techniques to their dummies. Because in fact none of these exercises will help in live sparring or rolling.

That's fine. I understand your perspective Dale, and it's not illogical. It's the niativity that comes when one is looking in from the outside. You don't have the knowledge of wing chun to make proper assessments. You don't practice wing chun, and so you need not worry about training on a muk jong. I and others like myself will work on the dummy with no detrimental effects in our sparring and continue about our training.

We're all entitled to our opinions, much in the same way that you think we don't know about real fighting because wing chun isn't based in the real world. Again...it's a matter of personal experiences that create our attitudes in life. Many people here appreciate that you have full contact fighting experience, myself being one of them. What we don't appreciate is the fact that you don't practice wing chun...and proceed to come in here like some prophet professing a new religion.

Fighting is fighting is fighting. Some wing chun folks understand the real deal, some don't. The same can be said of MMA wannabe's. Even moreso actually. They feel they're qualified and understand fighting more than anyone else because they know a couple boxing punches, the sprawl, and a couple of BJJ positions and submissions---oh wait and their gear has the UFC logo on it.

shawchemical

05-05-2010, 11:24 PM

Counter-productive and develops bad habits.

only if you do it wrong. Guess that's why you cant develop good habits though its use.

shawchemical

05-05-2010, 11:27 PM

Dale,

I agree it's an antiquated learning tool, and that fighting skill can be attained without it...but how SPECIFICALLY is it counter productive and what SPECIFIC bad habits are developed?

Generally, bad habits are a result of practicing incorrect application. Example: Bruce Lee used to talk about in his books that if you try to train finer movements when you're tired your technique will not be as crisp or correct and doing this too much can lead to your body "memorizing" the bad technique. Hence he recommended training fine movements when fresh and work on more gross movements when tired. E.G. if you practice hitting the heavy bag with your hands down, you're more than likely going to spar that way as well...and then get hit....a lot.

Actually its, when you are tired that you can imprint your muscle memory more effectively.

Just like a basketballer practising hundred of free throws at the end of a hard training session, if you pay attention and train the finer movements when tired intentionally, when you are tired in a real fight, your technique will be similarly crisp. It takes attention to detail to make sure you're doing it right when tired, or another's helpful eyes to pick up your errors.

wkmark

05-05-2010, 11:28 PM

Not to mention that even your beloved Alan Orr and Robert Chu use wing chun biomechanics. So there's nothing wrong with the biomechanics themselves, only the person's skill in applying the biomechanics.

In general though, the ability to apply wing chun doesn't lie with the fact that someone is practicing forms, or the muk jong, or knives, or pole. It lies with the fact that certain people ARE NOT practicing application in live settings with proper feedback. Or as Terence thinks...against MMA elite fighters (or the gym equivelent apparently).

The muk yan jong is just another training apparatus for solo work and for specific ends. Kinda like a speed bag in boxing and the throwing and grappling dummies in Judo and BJJ. Yet because these apparatus's are not exactly the same as real life--some alterations in technique needs to be made; and by your logic boxers should stop punching speedbags, judoka should stop throwing dummies, and grapplers should stop applying techniques to their dummies. Because in fact none of these exercises will help in live sparring or rolling.

That's fine. I understand your perspective Dale, and it's not illogical. It's the niativity that comes when one is looking in from the outside. You don't have the knowledge of wing chun to make proper assessments. You don't practice wing chun, and so you need not worry about training on a muk jong. I and others like myself will work on the dummy with no detrimental effects in our sparring and continue about our training.

We're all entitled to our opinions, much in the same way that you think we don't know about real fighting because wing chun isn't based in the real world. Again...it's a matter of personal experiences that create our attitudes in life. Many people here appreciate that you have full contact fighting experience, myself being one of them. What we don't appreciate is the fact that you don't practice wing chun...and proceed to come in here like some prophet professing a new religion.

Fighting is fighting is fighting. Some wing chun folks understand the real deal, some don't. The same can be said of MMA wannabe's. Even moreso actually. They feel they're qualified and understand fighting more than anyone else because they know a couple boxing punches, the sprawl, and a couple of BJJ positions and submissions---oh wait and their gear has the UFC logo on it.

Totally Agreed. You couldn't have explained it better.

SAAMAG

05-05-2010, 11:33 PM

Actually its, when you are tired that you can imprint your muscle memory more effectively.

Just like a basketballer practising hundred of free throws at the end of a hard training session, if you pay attention and train the finer movements when tired intentionally, when you are tired in a real fight, your technique will be similarly crisp. It takes attention to detail to make sure you're doing it right when tired, or another's helpful eyes to pick up your errors.

It's been my experience in fighting that when you're gassed...nothing is crisp or clean or technically correct. Because your body no longer has the juice to do things properly. That's why fighting endurance is so important in sport fighting.

True though the mind leads the body...but only until the body gives out.

shawchemical

05-05-2010, 11:35 PM

Yeah, okay Dale, leave it to you to pick out a WD vid like that.

You want to see a really good example of how to use the WD? Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmdn55U2vDY

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

A good way to use the dummy??

Please tell me you're kidding!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS is what the dummy is used for, and how it is best trained.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAqPPA8eK7w

shawchemical

05-05-2010, 11:37 PM

It's been my experience in fighting that when you're gassed...nothing is crisp or clean or technically correct. Because your body no longer has the juice to do things properly. That's why fighting endurance is so important in sport fighting.

True though the mind leads the body...but only until the body gives out.

True.

But if when you are tired your body remembers the more appropriate position of techniques because you have trained them to exist at the correct location even when you are tired, the gross motor skills can take care of the rest.

Accepting that something may happen in a fight does not mean that we should be training sloppily when we are tired. Training things to be as good as possible especially when tired should be one of the most important things we do to prevent ourselves turning into useless patty cake slappers.

wkmark

05-05-2010, 11:43 PM

What I don't understand is why is that some people think if the wooden Dummy does not work for them, then it's not going to work for anyone else?

There are no set sequence for the wooden dummy once you have learned them all. The sequences were given only so students can remember them easier. When Yip Man went to Hong Kong, he didn't have any sequences, he performed them based on his own free will. Only when he started to teach, he needed to set a sequence so his students can learn them.

Every move in the Wooden Dummy has an application for them in fighting. Some may need to be re-explained to apply to the current styles of fighting out there, but nevertheless, the principles are still the same. If your teacher has only taught you to do the moves, but don't explain to you what EACH moves are for, then I suggest you go back and ask your teacher about it.

Can I apply some of the moves to fighting, sure! Can i apply them all? Not necessarily. But it's just a tool in my toolbox.

SAAMAG

05-05-2010, 11:43 PM

THIS is what the dummy is used for, and how it is best trained.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAqPPA8eK7w

Indeed that is one way. WSL illustrated a good wu jia method because he showed total body power, you could see him "presenting" himself when he would issue power and see the legs working.

From a Neijia perspective that's too hard, it should be natural power only with nothing that looks or feels like a forceful muscular effort was put into it.

The "right way" is whatever presents proper wing chun body mechanics. The forcefulness will determine from what method of power you're trying to dip from or work on.

There's an even more forceful method where you're spontaneously hitting on the dummy, applying the movements in a more "natural" fashion...entering in from father back, sidestepping and hitting, applying jolting power (more like how you'd move in real life) and this works yet another aspect of the dummies usefulness.

To each their own. As long as you can get value out of it.

SAAMAG

05-05-2010, 11:45 PM

True.

But if when you are tired your body remembers the more appropriate position of techniques because you have trained them to exist at the correct location even when you are tired, the gross motor skills can take care of the rest.

Accepting that something may happen in a fight does not mean that we should be training sloppily when we are tired. Training things to be as good as possible especially when tired should be one of the most important things we do to prevent ourselves turning into useless patty cake slappers.

Right right...you do it best you can...but once you've reached that tipping point where technique is just bad then you need to move on to more conditioning type stuff or take a break. That's what Bruce was talking moreso about. That point of no return.

Remember these aren't my words, I generally train as long as possible until my body gives out or I'm out of nutrients and wanna puke. lol

shawchemical

05-05-2010, 11:52 PM

Right right...you do it best you can...but once you've reached that tipping point where technique is just bad then you need to move on to more conditioning type stuff or take a break. That's what Bruce was talking moreso about. That point of no return.

Remember these aren't my words, I generally train as long as possible until my body gives out or I'm out of nutrients and wanna puke. lol

We are coming from the exact same point. Train until you reach that point, but until you reach that point there is no excuse for adopting sloppy nonsense simply because you are tired.

Real fight time, that point will probably be extrapolated due to adrenaline anyway.

shawchemical

05-05-2010, 11:54 PM

Can I apply some of the moves to fighting, sure! Can i apply them all? Not necessarily. But it's just a tool in my toolbox.

The idiots are just frustrated because they think there is some secret behind it. Petulant children the lot of them.

A further aspect of the quote should be " Am I working to be able to use these tools in combat? YES.

:)

Ultimatewingchun

05-06-2010, 12:13 AM

wkmark

05-06-2010, 12:32 AM

Yeah, lol, shawchemical. :eek:

Trying to do a lineage war thing between Wong's VT and William's TWC. :rolleyes:

Gimme a break.

There are people here trying to discredit wing chun in general and wooden dummy training in particular - and this is what you come up with :confused:

You're talking about William Cheung, pal. You know, the guy along with WSL and Bruce Lee (who they both trained)...who put Yip Man's school on the map.

Yeah - that William Cheung. :cool:

I agree with the above in that sense. Lineage War is bad... it's what makes everyone out there laugh at WC practitioner.

Although I do appreciate that you enjoyed Sifu Wong Shun Leung's version of Muk Yan Jong more than SiSok William Cheung's, nevertheless, they both may have different perception of it throughout their own experiences.

It's best to explain why Muk Yan Jong is useful rather than WHO's version of Muk Yan Jong is better. =)

LoneTiger108

05-06-2010, 02:30 AM

I know polls are a bit 'political' but with our parliament in the UK going through the mill today I thought this would make an interesting subject to distract me! :D

I see some valid points here, both for and against, but what I do not see is actual wooden man training that sits outside the conventional 108/116 form.

Am I throwing a spanner in the works if I ask if anyone actually practises their SLT sets on the wooden man? Or ask if you have 'basic' training on it, like for example, learning the wing chun fist work (chun kuen)?

sanjuro_ronin

05-06-2010, 05:34 AM

My fav WD clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iMYCAICTao

lkfmdc

05-06-2010, 06:19 AM

Sanjuro is slipping, I would have thought he would have posted this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ed6i9-Du-0

sanjuro_ronin

05-06-2010, 07:20 AM

Sanjuro is slipping, I would have thought he would have posted this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ed6i9-Du-0

I like the way she HANDLES the STICK.
:D

mun hung

05-06-2010, 07:36 AM

It's quite obvious that some don't know enough to pass judgement on the topic. You must understand why and what the forms are there for. They all serve different purposes and are there to remind the practitioner of many things. But also keep in mind that some are not that obvious. Peolple are not suppose to fight in form sequences or what we call "fighting in the form." This leads to dead kung fu. This is a common mistake of those who think beating up on a piece of wood is going to benefit them on the street. This is a big problem among many practitioners that have a misunderstanding of what this form and others are meant for. Each of the forms is it's own sequential lesson in which the student is reminded of important details within our art.

I laugh whenever I see people demonstrating super fast hand sequences on the dummy and with lots of power. It has gone from being a training tool to one that people use to show off "kung fu" moves to their friends. If I wasn't a Wing Chun pratitioner and I witnessed some of these WD forms - I would ridicule it also. I don't blame people.

Mostly, the dummy is there simply to condition and correct the hands when you have no partner. And of course there are other things.

Peace.

- P

goju

05-06-2010, 07:38 AM

looks like she got whacked with the ugly stick!
:D

this is what you meant right?:D

sanjuro_ronin

05-06-2010, 07:57 AM

this is what you meant right?:D

You young pups, *shakes head*, if you can't say something nice....

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 08:35 AM

Not to mention that even your beloved Alan Orr and Robert Chu use wing chun biomechanics. So there's nothing wrong with the biomechanics themselves, only the person's skill in applying the biomechanics.

The biomechanics of the mook jong and fighting are very different... and that's the problem.

Kinda like a speed bag in boxing and the throwing and grappling dummies in Judo and BJJ. Yet because these apparatus's are not exactly the same as real life--some alterations in technique needs to be made; and by your logic boxers should stop punching speedbags, judoka should stop throwing dummies, and grapplers should stop applying techniques to their dummies. Because in fact none of these exercises will help in live sparring or rolling.

Boxers probably should stop punching speed bags. Nobody throws punches like that or stands like that when fighting. The speed bag is not as counter-productive as the dummy, but it is a relic that serves no purpose.

The grappling dummies at least let you practice techniques with the same mechanics as you apply them for real.

I understand your perspective Dale, and it's not illogical. It's the niativity that comes when one is looking in from the outside. You don't have the knowledge of wing chun to make proper assessments. You don't practice wing chun, and so you need not worry about training on a muk jong. I and others like myself will work on the dummy with no detrimental effects in our sparring and continue about our training.

Based on what exercise science studies show regarding skill training, it does have a detrimental effect. Most WC guys are just too brainwashed to see this.

YungChun

05-06-2010, 08:44 AM

The biomechanics of the mook jong and fighting are very different... and that's the problem.

The mechanics and tools in the dummy form are VT tools, mechanics, etc.. Toss them away and you are no longer doing VT..

I don't care if you think VT suks, that's your prerogative. However, don't tell us that you have to toss away all that is VT to then be doing VT correctly.. Toss away all that is VT and you toss away VT, you don't somehow get closer to "functional VT"..

"You don't punch like that in real fighting.."

What is this supposed to mean? That even VT strikes are somehow invalid?

There appears to be no end to your willingness to bash VT in all and every aspect.. The only way you accept VT is when there is no VT left in one's expression..

I would prefer you simply took the position that VT is crap as opposed to calling something with no VT, tools, mechanics, tactics, etc, "correct" VT, because it's a load.

goju

05-06-2010, 08:48 AM

Boxers probably should stop punching speed bags. Nobody throws punches like that or stands like that when fighting. The speed bag is not as counter-productive as the dummy, but it is a relic that serves no purpose.
.

(facepalm)

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

sanjuro_ronin

05-06-2010, 08:50 AM

(facepalm)

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Don't faceplam, Dale is actually quite correct, the speed bag is virtually pointless, the only thing you get out of it is a shoulder workout.

goju

05-06-2010, 08:59 AM

sanjuro_ronin

05-06-2010, 09:39 AM

well i suppose we can also ignore the hand eye coordination it develops

not to mention how you can tie Footwork, head-movement, varying rythm, precision punching, and breathing pace... into the speed bag work

you know what im off...im gonna go train before i get a head ache from reading some of these posts:rolleyes::D

The hand-eye coordination it develops has little to do with boxing, the double-end is far better for that and sparring even more so.

Footwork in speed bag work? really? where?
as for the rest:
varying rythm, precision punching, and breathing pace...

All good to keep the drill from getting boring but very little cross over to actual boxing.

Bully

05-06-2010, 11:27 AM

Just beginning on the dummy form. Only learning the first 24 or so moves. Helped with my footwork already, that big stupid leg gets in the way all the time. Reminds me to move properly every time I trip over it.:o

Whilst it isnt supposed to be used to toughen up your arms, I dont see why you cant use it for conditioning as long as you do it separately to the form, which we all know should be flowing and not done making lots of noise.

I love the dummy, the way it looks and training on it.

sanjuro_ronin

05-06-2010, 11:30 AM

Let's face it guys, if you are not doing the WD like Jackie in the clip I posted, what are you doing it for?

SAAMAG

05-06-2010, 12:56 PM

How about this guy? Is this more to your liking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xxHGCSjejE&feature=related

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 01:04 PM

How about this guy? Is this more to your liking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xxHGCSjejE&feature=related

More Crazy Eggbeater with no power.

SAAMAG

05-06-2010, 01:06 PM

That was for Sanjuro....he said to hit it fast like Jackie Chan remember?

sanjuro_ronin

05-06-2010, 01:15 PM

That was for Sanjuro....he said to hit it fast like Jackie Chan remember?
I think you need to review that JC video, he hit it fast, hard and with structure,like you are suppose to.

Just moving around an inanimate object and pushing and pulling and pressing against it will develop the ability to move around an inanimate object and push, pull and press it.

sanjuro_ronin

05-06-2010, 01:16 PM

More Crazy Eggbeater with no power.

He didn't even egg beat, if I was an eggbeater I would be insulted if someone called that egg beating !
:D

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 01:57 PM

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 02:02 PM

This is going on my list of why I don't give you any kickboxing cred.

Please explain the advantages of the speed bag.

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 02:24 PM

LOL... the clueless one must be off on the web furiously copying and pasting articles on the advantages to speed bag training.

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 03:09 PM

Concerning the OP, In WC the things that the Mj provides are certainly important. In the absence of a training partners, it might be a good option.

Although, I think that random MJ-like training apparatus can be rigged up that have a more realistic feel. My buddy padded a 4x4 post and lashed a dowel rod to it with some extra airline tubing from an aquarium. I liked the springiness of the arm when practicing various WC movements like tan, gum, and jut. The length of the arm allowed us to practice head movement. Maybe MJ might be dated, but the general idea of a big wooden thing to practice your WC on isn't completely ridiculous.

SAAMAG

05-06-2010, 05:31 PM

LOL... the clueless one must be off on the web furiously copying and pasting articles on the advantages to speed bag training.

Wasn't that already briefly answered in a previous post? Shoulder work, hand-eye coordination, etc etc.

I don't think it presents anything that couldn't be had through another exercise. What about the up and down bag?

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 05:58 PM

LOL... the clueless one must be off on the wefuriously copying and pasting articles on the advantages to speed bag training.

When you, bum train like what you used to, you don't notice the subtle affects of different training implements on your punching. Only someone who hasn't really trained much would recommend removing the speed bag from training. I will just leave it at that. Moreover, I leave it to people to train and experiment to see if I am telling the truth. Other things can do the similar things as a speed bag, but not to the same level.

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 06:09 PM

Wasn't that already briefly answered in a previous post? Shoulder work, hand-eye coordination, etc etc.

I don't think it presents anything that couldn't be had through another exercise. What about the up and down bag?

The top and bottom bag does all the things that a speed bag is supposed to do without compromising the neuromusclular pathways and teaching people to punch in ways that would never be done in actual fighting.

Of course a guy like CluelessWCGuy, who is worried about unusable parts of systems fading away, will never realize things like this.

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 06:12 PM

When you, bum train like what you used to, you don't notice the subtle affects of different training implements on your punching.

Of course, you have no idea what those are... not to mention the fact that, even if you did, you'd be afraid to post them because you know I'd rip them apart as the thought of a theoretical non-fighter.

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 06:13 PM

The top and bottom bag does all the things that a speed bag is supposed to do without compromising the neuromusclular pathways and teaching people to punch in ways that would never be done in actual fighting.

Of course a guy like CluelessWCGuy, who is worried about unusable parts of systems fading away, will never realize things like this.

Fale, that sounds like a lot of fantasy. In fact, I know it to be so. If you said this nonsense on a boxing board you would be laughed off of it. Unfortunately you have buffaloed nuthuggers into believing the nonsense that you spew.

You are telling people to use machines in stead of free-weights to use a weightlifting analogy.

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 06:35 PM

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 06:43 PM

Of course a guy like CluelessWCGuy, who is worried about unusable parts of systems fading away, will never realize things like this.

You need to elaborate on this. It will underscore your complete cluelessness for everyone.

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 06:44 PM

Fale, that sounds like a lot of fantasy. In fact, I know it to be so. If you said this nonsense on a boxing board you would be laughed off of it. Unfortunately you have buffaloed nuthuggers into believe the nonsense that you spew.

You are telling people to use machines in stead of free-weights to use a weightlifting analogy.

To use a weight lifting analogy, you are telling people that doing ballroom dancing is going to help their 1RM.

You are right. Going to a boxing board and explaining the uselessness of the speed bag will get lots of disagreement. Boxers are just as caught up in maintaining some of the old, dysfunctional ways as are the TMA guys (the difference is that boxing has many fewer dysfunctional methods that they use).

However, go to a site that consists professional level coaches who have educations in the fields of human performance and applied training and you will get mostly agreement from them.

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 07:10 PM

However, go to a site that consists professional level coaches who have educations in the fields of human performance and applied training and you will get mostly agreement from them.

Guys with no real knowledge of punching who just theorize. That sounds about right.

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 07:20 PM

Hey Dale,
Since its always about doing the exact movement that you are going to do in competition why don't powerlifters just do more bench presses? All the extra arm and back isolation exercises are a waste.

Specificity of training.... the one of the main keys of the underlying foundation of improving human performance.

It is the reason that power lifters do exactly that... they focus on the three main lifts- bench press, squat, and deadlift. Same reason that the Olympic lifters focus on their two main lifts-clean/jerk and snatch. All training is designed to be as specific as possible to those lifts.

And, yes, if you are a competitive lifter, isolation exercises are pretty much a waste of time.

Thanks for proving your stupidity once again.

goju

05-06-2010, 07:25 PM

. Boxers are just as caught up in maintaining some of the old, dysfunctional ways as are the TMA guys (the difference is that boxing has many fewer dysfunctional methods that they use).

oooooh come on lets be honest dale youre just to short to be able to reach the speed bag:D

its nothing to be ashamed of:p there was a time when i was too short as well oh how i swore id grow tall enough so i could play with the big boy equipment

all joking aside ( sorry couldnt help myself!)

as for the foot work i mentioned earlier...

as youre doing your drills you can punch then weave around the bag as it is returning to your face then angle off and resume hitting the bag

thats using foot work

of course as the arguement has been it is useless as you dont hit like that in a fight so its not relevant to fighting

well to put it frankly....no ****

when you fight or spar you're not hitting flat cushioned pads or a long cylinder shaped bag either so lets toss that out of the window as well

the only thing that is relevant to fighting is uh gee lets see fighting:eek::rolleyes:

however things like the speed bag. pads and weights among other things build certain attributes you need for it

and of course if you overly concentrate on one aspect of things like i noted above it will be detrimental for your training

thats what they call a big duh in America and as far as the speed bag is concerned ive never seen a credible boxing gym have their fighters or students work the bag endlessly so this make the notion thats its a waste of time pointless as it is not heavly concentrated on

its usually a relatively brief work out if anything (unless of course you dont want to waste oh 10 or 12 minutes because you have to run back on an online forum to argue with people:D:rolleyes:)

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 07:34 PM

Specificity of training.... the one of the main keys of the underlying foundation of improving human performance.

It is the reason that power lifters do exactly that... they focus on the three main lifts- bench press, squat, and deadlift. Same reason that the Olympic lifters focus on their two main lifts-clean/jerk and snatch. All training is designed to be as specific as possible to those lifts.

And, yes, if you are a competitive lifter, isolation exercises are pretty much a waste of time.

Thanks for proving your stupidity once again.

They still hit all supporting muscles. I own several west side barbell club books and worked with some of Louie Simmons's students and continue to use a modified version of the program today. What you are saying is a bit disingenuous. Exercising supporting muscles is still part of even premier powerlifiting programs like west side.

HumbleWCGuy

05-06-2010, 07:41 PM

all joking aside

Dale is too clueless to know how clueless he is.

Lee Chiang Po

05-06-2010, 07:41 PM

It is actually called the Rythem bag, not speed bag. Nothing to do with speed. It can be done blindfolded so it is not for hand eye coordination. It is designed to increase your arm stamina and endurance, and that is just about it.

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 07:52 PM

They still hit all supporting muscles. I own several west side barbell club books and worked with some of Louie Simmons's students and continue to use a modified version of the program today. What you are saying is a bit disingenuous. Exercising supporting muscles is still part of even premier powerlifiting programs like west side.

LOL @ owning a couple of weight lifting books and thinking you know all about training. Kind of the same principle of you owning a couple of Muay Thai and WC videos.

The underlying principle of training supporting muscle groups is still based upon the principle of specificity of training. Training supporting muscles for power or Olympic lifting is not done as isolation exercise.

If someone is a power or Olympic lifter, doing isolation arm curls is a complete waste time. Training hang pulls is not. Big difference. But I doubt you would understand that.

SavvySavage

05-06-2010, 08:50 PM

I'm have to side with Dale on this one accept I believe ALL isolation lifting is a wast of time.

Knifefighter

05-06-2010, 08:58 PM

I'm have to side with Dale on this one accept I believe ALL isolation lifting is a wast of time.

Isolation lifting has it's place... namely for developing specific muscles such as in bodybuilding, for rehabilitation, or to balance out inequities between antagonistic muscle groups.

Hardwork108

05-06-2010, 10:27 PM

Joy, I totally agree.
My Wing Chun is not dictated by polls.

Same here, but polls like this are very revealing in that they bring out the kung fu-clueless, Wing Chun "critiques", and reading their uninformed comments is hilariously entertaining.

LoneTiger108

05-07-2010, 03:03 AM

... but polls like this are very revealing in that they bring out the kung fu-clueless, Wing Chun "critiques", and reading their uninformed comments is hilariously entertaining.

:rolleyes: Obviously this wasn't my original intention!

I just thought some guys here may have more of an insight into different training approaches with the wooden man.

Am I the only one here to have drilled chun kuen on the dummy? And I'm not talking of smacking the hell out of a 'padded body', I'm talking of precise positioning within the top two arms, burning through the skin of the forearms! :D

And to ask the question again, who has actually been shown the wooden man form or training mano-to-mano? From teacher to student?

Or are you all just copying from a book or video or something??!!! :o

HumbleWCGuy

05-07-2010, 04:33 AM

LOL @ owning a couple of weight lifting books and thinking you know all about training. Kind of the same principle of you owning a couple of Muay Thai and WC videos.

The underlying principle of training supporting muscle groups is still based upon the principle of specificity of training. Training supporting muscles for power or Olympic lifting is not done as isolation exercise.

If someone is a power or Olympic lifter, doing isolation arm curls is a complete waste time. Training hang pulls is not. Big difference. But I doubt you would understand that.

Since louie is the premier powerlifting coaching in the country by results. I am going to follow his and his student's recommendations.

Dale, just face it, you are caught in another uncle B.S. fantasy. Nobody in their right mind denies that you have to actually practice punching to get better at punching. However, an isolation exercise like a speed bag has greater benefit for what it does than other bags than just doing more of the same in an otherwise sound program.

You keep accusing me of being taped trained yet when it comes to practical knowledge of using these bags, yours is conspicuously absent. Nuff said. What I find most hilarious about you is that you talk all this smack, but in the end you probably keep my posts in a log so that you can refer to them and sound credible when you talk to upright fighters.

Frost

05-07-2010, 04:56 AM

t_niehoff

05-07-2010, 05:08 AM

:rolleyes: Obviously this wasn't my original intention!

I just thought some guys here may have more of an insight into different training approaches with the wooden man.

The WCK kuit tells us that "Muk Yan Jong Lien Ging Lik Gung" - The wooden man is training to develop power. It does this since it is a solid and heavy trunk, and by pressing into it, pulling it, etc. we can learn how to use and develop (to a limited degree) our body leverage via our bridges to destroy an opponent's structure. It also develops our body structure since when you connect to the dummy with your center and issue power, if your structure is "off" it will rebound into you destroying your structure.

You don't get this by lightly touching the dummy or by banging your arms on the dummy for "conditioning" or just using the dummy as a static reference for practicing techniques or positioning, etc.

Am I the only one here to have drilled chun kuen on the dummy? And I'm not talking of smacking the hell out of a 'padded body', I'm talking of precise positioning within the top two arms, burning through the skin of the forearms! :D

What is the positioning for? Leverage.

And to ask the question again, who has actually been shown the wooden man form or training mano-to-mano? From teacher to student?

Or are you all just copying from a book or video or something??!!! :o

The dummy, like all the other drills/exercises in WCK, can be performed in any number of ways. The bottom line is that if you don't know what you are trying to do, what you are trying to develop, etc. you won't learn or develop it.

Sorry, Paul, for just repeating the same old message in my obnoxious ways. :)

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 05:54 AM

Sorry, Paul, for just repeating the same old message in my obnoxious ways.

LOL !!
Nice touch bro !

Back on topic for a second:
I love dummy work, its fun, its good forging and I love the satisfying thud of flesh on wood and I love the cracking sound I get every so often :D
Being a kyokushin and Hung Kuen guy primarly, the dummy is done with speed and power.
It was not always the case though, I always hit it "hard" but rarely "that hard".
Bakxierboxer ( Pete) told me to pad it, weight it down and drill it like the ***** that it was !!
I did that and, progressviely, I saw the difference in structure, aligment and even impact force.
Hitting hard and with correct footwork revealed to me flaws that "pansy strikes" woudl never of done because the reaction just wasn't there.
Pete told me he had a dummy that he weighted down with 300lbs and he would bang that sucker and move it back 3 ft or more !
That is power, that is structure.
:p

Frost

05-07-2010, 07:18 AM

Since louie is the premier powerlifting coaching in the country by results. I am going to follow his and his student's recommendations.

Dale, just face it, you are caught in another uncle B.S. fantasy. Nobody in their right mind denies that you have to actually practice punching to get better at punching. However, an isolation exercise like a speed bag has greater benefit for what it does than other bags than just doing more of the same in an otherwise sound program.

You keep accusing me of being taped trained yet when it comes to practical knowledge of using these bags, yours is conspicuously absent. Nuff said. What I find most hilarious about you is that you talk all this smack, but in the end you probably keep my posts in a log so that you can refer to them and sound credible when you talk to upright fighters.

careful following the recommendations of a gym that uses gear and steriods, both change the way you train and the specifity of support lifts, box squats carry over great to geared/suited squats but not so with free squats done with just a belt for example. Rotating max effort lifts can be a great idea when on supplements, but burn you out if you are natural etc it goes on and on

As for isolated lifts used in powerlifting which are you refering to? Box squats, GHR, reverse hyper, good mornings, close grip bench and board presses are the prefered methods used to get their numbers up and they are hardly isolated movements

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 07:38 AM

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:08 AM

Isolation lifts cna be used to bring up a "weak link" in the off season for olympic and power lifting.
Working the bicep to bring up the DL or wroking the tricpes to bing up the overhead lift for example.
Typcially they are done ala "power" producing ways ( low reps high weight, low volume) and for 6 weeks max.
Then they are dropped when returning to focus on the big lifts.

fair enough, also i think we have to be careful when talking about how powerlifters train and what we can take from their training, what an elite lifter has to do to take his bench from 600 to 625 is different from what an average joe has to do to go from 200 to 225.

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:10 AM

fair enough, also i think we have to be careful when talking about how powerlifters train and what we can take from their training, what an elite lifter has to do to take his bench from 600 to 625 is different from what an average joe has to do to go from 200 to 225.

Understate much?
LOL !
yeah, for sure.
It's nice to see what the elite do in any sport as long as you realize that they are the elite for a reason and that the VAST MAJORITY never even come close.

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:15 AM

Understate much?
LOL !
yeah, for sure.
It's nice to see what the elite do in any sport as long as you realize that they are the elite for a reason and that the VAST MAJORITY never even come close.

sorry :)
but the number of people i see following westside and doing things like high rep band pushdowns etc for triceps is funny, as eric creasey once put it until you have pressed over 400pounds and can't bend your arms because your triceps are that sore you really don't need to mess around with this stuff :)

And the elite are sometimes the elite because of where they train and the company they keep rather than how they train....lol reminds me of one of terrances rants about training at a good gym

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:17 AM

sorry :)
but the number of people i see following westside and doing things like high rep band pushdowns etc for triceps is funny, as eric creasey once put it until you have pressed over 400pounds and can't bend your arms because your triceps are that sore you really don't need to mess around with this stuff :)

And the elite are sometimes the elite because of where they train and the company they keep rather than how they train....lol reminds me of one of terrances rants about training at a good gym

Indeed my friend, indeed.

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:19 AM

On a side note:
Here my wife pulled a gun on me and I am about to incapcitate her with a taiji move !!
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs118.snc1/4863_95753402689_518227689_1998330_6578045_n.jpg

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:21 AM

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:26 AM

lol classic thanks for the laugh :)

To be honest, my TKD training took over and I hook kicked the gun from her hand.
:D

HumbleWCGuy

05-07-2010, 08:28 AM

careful following the recommendations of a gym that uses gear and steriods, both change the way you train and the specifity of support lifts, box squats carry over great to geared/suited squats but not so with free squats done with just a belt for example. Rotating max effort lifts can be a great idea when on supplements, but burn you out if you are natural etc it goes on and on
The principles are the same either way. You just have to use less volume. That's why I say that I do a modified version. I do not use steroids so I cannot work out with the same volume continually like they do. Especially for me being natural, it isolation exercise are necessary because I get over trained if I try to do too many big movements.

As for isolated lifts used in powerlifting which are you refering to? Box squats, GHR, reverse hyper, good mornings, close grip bench and board presses are the prefered methods used to get their numbers up and they are hardly isolated movements
Those are the exercises that get all the publicity but, that isn't all that they do.
Although, reverse hyper is an isolation exercise.

In west side, people still do curls, leg extensions, press-downs for the back-arm, shoulder raises, skull crushers and so on. Louie is a big fan of isolating the hamstrings too. I used many of his recommendations to rehab my my lower body after a back injury.

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:29 AM

To be honest, my TKD training took over and I hook kicked the gun from her hand.
:D

lol i bet your wife loves you :)

I went through a stage with my girlfriend where she refused to hug me as i kept swimming for underhooks and looking for head position....then she started grappling too and now she instantly looks for the *****er or goes for the neck tie and its no fun anymore :(

HumbleWCGuy

05-07-2010, 08:33 AM

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:37 AM

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:39 AM

The principles are the same either way. You just have to use less volume. That's why I say that I do a modified version. I do not use steroids so I cannot work out with the same volume continually like they do. Especially for me being natural, it isolation exercise are necessary because I get over trained if I try to do too many big movements.
Actually I thought it changed the principles a lot, even guys like wendler when talking about raw lifters and drug free lifting change the lifts and how they train them and lift in more a liner way, starting in the 70% and moving upwards rather than staying at the 90% and over mark all year round.

Do you still train the major lifts in the 1 to 5 rep max range yearly like they do, working at 90% or more for most of the year, or do you cycle your weights more like wendler and tate (and defranco etc) have their guys do?

Those are the exercises that get all the publicity but, that isn't all that they do.
Although, reverse hyper is an isolation exercise. .

I'm not sure that an exercise that works the lower back, gluts and hamstrings can really be called isolated

In west side, people still do curls, leg extensions, press-downs for the back-arm, shoulder raises, skull crushers and so on. Louie is a big fan of isolating the hamstrings too. I used many of his recommendations to rehab my my lower body after a back injury.

I thought that when working on the big three they used mainly the compound movements with heavy weight and low reps, and used any isolated stuff to help build some muscle and pack on bulk, but that it only indirectly helped with their numbers and that when starting guys out it they didn't even really bother with any isolated movements

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:40 AM

Frost,
It's not that Dale doesn't have a point about trying to do the movements that most simulate your activity. He is just overgeneralizing to the point to where he is suggesting that time-honored isolation exercises have no value. That's just theoretical fantasy musings.

The whole debate started pertaining to the efficacy of the speed bag as a training implement.
My claim is that the speed bag is just one of those time-honored isolation exercises that cannot be replaced. We started discussing weightlifting to hit the argument from an analogy because I doubt that Dale has ever hit a speed bag so I needed to put it in a context that he knows about.

I was brought up on the speed bag, got good at it too.
My Boxing coach in Portugal taught it and my coaches in Toronto 0 Sully's Gym and Cabbegtown boxing- taught it and used it.
And none of them could tell you what it was better for than the double end bag or the HB, but it was tradition.
I stopped using it early on anyways and it made no difference to them.

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:41 AM

I hear you, I hate when they start to get good !

showing here how to hold the phoenix eye fist was the worst mistake i ever made :(

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:46 AM

showing here how to hold the phoenix eye fist was the worst mistake i ever made :(

Dude, what were you thinking ???
I kept that **** a guarded secret !!
LOL !

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:46 AM

Frost,
It's not that Dale doesn't have a point about trying to do the movements that most simulate your activity. He is just overgeneralizing to the point to where he is suggesting that time-honored isolation exercises have no value. That's just theoretical fantasy musings.

The whole debate started pertaining to the efficacy of the speed bag as a training implement.
My claim is that the speed bag is just one of those time-honored isolation exercises that cannot be replaced. We started discussing weightlifting to hit the argument from an analogy because I doubt that Dale has ever hit a speed bag so I needed to put it in a context that he knows about.

actually i remember him a while back championing the use of some isolated movements, curls for example in order to help develop the muscles for defending the arm bar, i think his point is valid on the speed ball, i have never used one (but then i never boxed) i find endurance and hand eye better trained on other bags and pads, just as the skipping rope is probably a worse choice for conditioning and footwork than actually sparring and working the bag or shadow boxing

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:48 AM

Dude, what were you thinking ???
I kept that **** a guarded secret !!
LOL !

it gets worse she boxed and kickboxed a long time so has all the power and conditioning to really use it:( i keep the lions fist and the three knuckle fist a secret lol

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:48 AM

Skipping rope is one of those things, like the Speed bag that, the better you get, the less effective it gets.

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:50 AM

it gets worse she boxed and kickboxed a long time so has all the power and conditioning to really use it:( i keep the lions fist and the three knuckle fist a secret lol

Well, you can always try kung fu counters, she'll probably never see the "Thundering c0ck invades the wet valley" attack, at least not until its too late !!

HumbleWCGuy

05-07-2010, 08:50 AM

Actually I thought it changed the principles a lot, even guys like wendler when talking about raw lifters and drug free lifting change the lifts and how they train them and lift in more a liner way, starting in the 70% and moving upwards rather than staying at the 90% and over mark all year round.

Do you still train the major lifts in the 1 to 5 rep max range yearly like they do, working at 90% or more for most of the year, or do you cycle your weights more like wendler and tate (and defranco etc) have their guys do?

Percent of max is not a training principle.

I'm not sure that an exercise that works the lower back, gluts and hamstrings can really be called isolated

I disagree, but no big deal.

I thought that when working on the big three they used mainly the compound movements with heavy weight and low reps, and used any isolated stuff to help build some muscle and pack on bulk, but that it only indirectly helped with their numbers and that when starting guys out it they didn't even really bother with any isolated movements
West side is about heavy movements but it is also about generating speed and explosion. They don't lift heavy all the time. Obviously, powerlifting de-emphasizes the smaller movement. Guys will often blow off a second arm or back workout in a week when completions aren't looming but they all realized that they are at their strongest when the entire workout is dialed in.

HumbleWCGuy

05-07-2010, 08:53 AM

I was brought up on the speed bag, got good at it too.
My Boxing coach in Portugal taught it and my coaches in Toronto 0 Sully's Gym and Cabbegtown boxing- taught it and used it.
And none of them could tell you what it was better for than the double end bag or the HB, but it was tradition.
I stopped using it early on anyways and it made no difference to them.

Well I just told you so now you know. :D

sanjuro_ronin

05-07-2010, 08:55 AM

Well I just told you so now you know. :D

LMAO !!
Nice. :D

Frost

05-07-2010, 08:57 AM

Percent of max is not a training principle..

really I thought using percentage of Max and not linear periodisation was one of their main principles along with using many different methods of strength development in the same week:, they believed working in the 90% plus range on the big lifts and the 50-60% range for the explosive stuff, and that to be able to train at such a high percentage year round they rotated the main lift every 2 to 3 weeks, rather than ramp up max out and then start another cycle is this incorrect?

HumbleWCGuy

05-07-2010, 09:06 AM

really I thought using percentage of Max and not linear periodisation was one of their main principles along with using many different methods of strength development in the same week:, they believed working in the 90% plus range on the big lifts and the 50-60% range for the explosive stuff, and that to be able to train at such a high percentage year round they rotated the main lift every 2 to 3 weeks, rather than ramp up max out and then start another cycle is this incorrect?

It's trying to put number to things like heavy, moderate, and light and how the weight feels to your muscles. Anybody who does west side naturally adjusts all the percentages down. And experiences the same sensation of heavy, moderate, and light. But it is still, heavy, moderate, light. Steroids or not, heavy, moderate, and light still apply.

Frost

05-07-2010, 09:20 AM

It's trying to put number to things like heavy, moderate, and light and how the weight feels to your muscles. Anybody who does west side naturally adjusts all the percentages down. And experiences the same sensation of heavy, moderate, and light. But it is still, heavy, moderate, light. Steroids or not, heavy, moderate, and light still apply.

ok i think our views of the system are a bit different but its all good

SAAMAG

05-07-2010, 09:31 AM

lol i bet your wife loves you :)

I went through a stage with my girlfriend where she refused to hug me as i kept swimming for underhooks and looking for head position....then she started grappling too and now she instantly looks for the *****er or goes for the neck tie and its no fun anymore :(

Lol I do the same thing! I'll go for over under or double under and then hip toss her! She goes "I just wanna why won't you love me!" I tell it's love cuz I'm sharing what I love the most with the person I love the most. I also tried telling her I'm teaching her self defense without her knowing like karate kid.

She didn't buy either one

LoneTiger108

05-07-2010, 12:26 PM

Honestly you lads do like to talk over threads about irrelevent cr4p! :rolleyes:

In a final push to at least try to stay on topic and discuss Wing Chun here, I'd like to just respond to what a few of you (other) guys have said.

LoneTiger108

05-07-2010, 12:55 PM

Hitting hard and with correct footwork revealed to me flaws that "pansy strikes" woudl never of done because the reaction just wasn't there.
Pete told me he had a dummy that he weighted down with 300lbs and he would bang that sucker and move it back 3 ft or more !
That is power, that is structure.
:p

I like the fact that you have really attacked that wood! :D And in doing so expose the weakness of, maybe, some of what you were shown. Practising on the wooden man is a very personal experience, and we all use it for different purposes at different times in our training. But basically, drilling that thing hard is only possible if you feel it yourself.

You sound like you felt it, so props to ya man!

The WCK kuit tells us that "Muk Yan Jong Lien Ging Lik Gung" - The wooden man is training to develop power. It does this since it is a solid and heavy trunk, and by pressing into it, pulling it, etc. we can learn how to use and develop (to a limited degree) our body leverage via our bridges to destroy an opponent's structure. It also develops our body structure since when you connect to the dummy with your center and issue power, if your structure is "off" it will rebound into you destroying your structure.

One of the better things you have contributed T IMO. I like this view and I hope you can provide me just a little more info, like is that particular line presented in 3 to 4 verse or 4 to 3? And is the lien continual or practise? Subtle differences, but it all helps us understand more about the kuit.

You don't get this by lightly touching the dummy or by banging your arms on the dummy for "conditioning" or just using the dummy as a static reference for practicing techniques or positioning, etc.

I agree 100% But I need to remind you that it was you who used the word conditioning, I actually referred to wooden man practise as a skill in itself. It's a skillset of Wing Chun, IMO ofcourse. You need to know what you want from it, and you have described something I know to be true.

And yes, you develop leverage practising chun kuen in the way I described, and you also 'clear the line' to pen a phrase used frequently on the forum. Depending on your objective, the chun kuen drill I have trained can develop a few other attributes too.

But remember that we all start slowly! ;) I'm not reccomending that burning the skin from your forearms is good in any way either, but this will happen if you try to speed up too soon and put more stress on your body that it's been prepared to take. This 'ging lik gung' takes time to develop, and good instruction.

The wooden man is your training partner after all, not your enemy.

bennyvt

05-07-2010, 03:43 PM

I think the main thing is the power is mainly from your legs. The arm movements should be snappy and only move the smallest distance from move to move. Most people tend to bring the arms back to get power, a big no-no. But I depends on what dummy you use. The yip man dummy can move across abit so you can really step into it. I did this to a dummy in china thats in the ground, and just rammed into the ground and nearly got jammed up. It was a totally different feel.
I have a book on the dummy by a leung sheung guy and he had an iidea of doing the form with only one arm. Man that felt weird. I found that the angles changed as the other hand was not there to help keep my facing. I tend to do the form backwards, 10 of the last section that I have learnt (now just finished) then do the last and second last 10 times, then last, second and third 10 times etc. I find that it means that I get heaps more of the one I need to practice more.

Hardwork108

05-08-2010, 03:50 AM

:rolleyes: Obviously this wasn't my original intention!

I know that of course, but you are lucky that it has not turned into a "benefits of BJJ" discussion, yet, but perhaps it will when Sanjuro and Frost get bored with their love-talk.:D

I just thought some guys here may have more of an insight into different training approaches with the wooden man.

well in my humble opinion and based on what I have been shown,the Wooden Dummy training provides benefits on various levels, including distancing; the use of correct angles; power; limb conditioning; posture, and even breathing.

Am I the only one here to have drilled chun kuen on the dummy? And I'm not talking of smacking the hell out of a 'padded body', I'm talking of precise positioning within the top two arms, burning through the skin of the forearms! :D
Well, you are one guy who trains actual Wing Chun.:)

And to ask the question again, who has actually been shown the wooden man form or training mano-to-mano? From teacher to student?

My sifu made me work on the dummy from relatively early on but I had to leave before I got to the Dummy form stage. However, there are no doubts in my mind about the benefits of Wooden Dummy training and the relevance of such training to Wing Chun exponents.

However, how many people can one point to, in this very thread and honestly describe them , as Wing Chun exponents?

Don't get me wrong, I like the thread subject and I believe that the question you ask makes for a good discussion. However, this thread has become revealing in the way I mentioned. Luckily, the poll results shows that there are some who understand Wing Chun, even if they are not so vocal about their positions and opinions, perhaps because they are unwilling to get into forum wars with Tae Kwon Do/BJJ/Weight lifting experts, who may have their own opinions on methodologies such as the Wooden Dummy.

Actually, I was very pleasantly surprised by the results of your poll, even though I suspect that a couple of the "yes" voters did so, just to come off looking knowledgable.;)

Anyway, unintended revelations are also made when other Wing Chun/kung fu subjects such as Chi Sao (see unenlightened comments such as "Chi sao is unrealistic slap fighting, hence useless..." etc); Internals (see, "Internals are fantasy/don't exist"); Forms (see, "forms are useless because they have no fighting relevance"), etc. etc.

So I guess some of us including the silent, but wise, Wing Chuners, have to take some of the "revelations" and just smile to ourselves.;)

Matrix

05-08-2010, 02:26 PM

No matter how the poll question is answered, the answer you give is correct.
If you find the dummy useful, then it is. If you believe that it is not useful, then for you it is not useful.
And of course, if you have not trained on the dummy then you Don't Know.

I love dummy work, its fun, its good forging and I love the satisfying thud of flesh on wood and I love the cracking sound I get every so often.My favourite response. I do it, because I love to do it. It's fun and enjoyable, but it's just a piece of wood. :)

LoneTiger108

05-09-2010, 01:10 PM

My favourite response. I do it, because I love to do it. It's fun and enjoyable, but it's just a piece of wood. :)

You sound quite like my Sifu! :cool:

I too love to train on the wooden man. It has an addictive quality I have yet to crush! And I've only recently got my own one set back at home...

shawchemical

05-12-2010, 11:43 PM

actually i remember him a while back championing the use of some isolated movements, curls for example in order to help develop the muscles for defending the arm bar, i think his point is valid on the speed ball, i have never used one (but then i never boxed) i find endurance and hand eye better trained on other bags and pads, just as the skipping rope is probably a worse choice for conditioning and footwork than actually sparring and working the bag or shadow boxing

except for the fact that it builds fast twitch fibers like nothing else.

Graham H

06-10-2010, 06:37 AM

LoneTiger108

06-11-2010, 09:10 AM

Excellent post Graham... until

...Please await my next post when I will explain how the dummy can be a use ful substitute for a lonely man that has problem with getting the ladies!!:D LMFAO!!!

I guess some of us need a 'Battle Creek Brawl' moment sometimes eh! ;):D

Graham H

06-14-2010, 12:10 AM

Excellent post Graham... until

I guess some of us need a 'Battle Creek Brawl' moment sometimes eh! ;):D

Its good to keep things light-hearted don't you think? Better than all the political garbage and in-fighting that is rife in VT today. :cool::D

GH

Graham H

06-14-2010, 12:12 AM

BTW....Thanks for the appreciation of my post. ;)

LoneTiger108

06-14-2010, 04:03 AM

Its good to keep things light-hearted don't you think? Better than all the political garbage and in-fighting that is rife in VT today. :cool::D

GH

Yep it is. Sometimes! ;)

I do like to hear from other families as it interests me. For example, from your use of VT I would expect you to be from Wong Shun Leung family who are known for his specific fighting approach to the art.

As much as we can all hate politics, we have to understand that it IS simply a part of life, within Martial Arts and other areas of life too!

Graham H

06-15-2010, 02:12 AM

Yep it is. Sometimes! ;)

I do like to hear from other families as it interests me. For example, from your use of VT I would expect you to be from Wong Shun Leung family who are known for his specific fighting approach to the art.

As much as we can all hate politics, we have to understand that it IS simply a part of life, within Martial Arts and other areas of life too!

Well said!!!!! I am from the WSL method....specifically Philipp Bayer.......That is important!!!!!

You know that interests me??? The general idea about the WSL method is that it is good for fighting.......shouldn't all WC be good for fighting?????

GH

LoneTiger108

06-15-2010, 04:12 AM

You know that interests me??? The general idea about the WSL method is that it is good for fighting.......shouldn't all WC be good for fighting?????

Yes I guess that's a purpose of training that MOST families share. Which is cool. But wasn't WSL a boxer, so he liked to rumble back in the day! My Sifu wasn't an angel, but he steered me away from getting into trouble.

Personally, I was trained as a performer first (very akin to opera really) then the fighting sort of came naturally a bit later on but I choose not to train specifically to fight (in comps)

Besides there are no decent Wing Chun competitions either, and as much as I enjoy watching the likes of UFC, M1, K1 etc I don't think that is the best platform to showcase Wing Chun imo.

k gledhill

06-15-2010, 04:24 AM

....my 2 cents

The main reasons for training the Muk Yan Jong:

Learning the correct structure as up until the dummy form there has been no feedback for ones movements.

Syncronicity of movement......using the limbs as reference so that the left and right side of the body including the step are square done together in order for the correct force to be delivered.

The attainment of the correct "shocking" force needed for Ving Tsun.

The correction of adverse fighting siuations.

Directness and economy of movment.

The attainment of good shape and position.

Understanding the limits of movements so as not be easily counter attacked by an opponent.

As a valuable training "friend" when one cannot have a live partner.

Whoever said that the Jong is not useful in Ving Tsun may need to consider that what they are being taught or practicing maybe a little incorrect. :)

Please await my next post when I will explain how the dummy can be a use ful substitute for a lonely man that has problem with getting the ladies!!:D LMFAO!!!

Graham H

good post !

the explosive 'shocking' fighting actions of vt and feedback from the dummy :D

Philipp also mentioned to me the attacking defense cycling actions inherent in the system, jum sao strike turns to bong sao, then bong becomes tan strike then tan becomes low gaun sao etc ..just to train your arms to always have attacks going while the other is helping that be possible, if we cant be striking with both arms.

Many see the dummy as 'moves' or applications.

jum sao and tan being strikes of course ;)

Graham H

06-15-2010, 05:25 AM

Yes I guess that's a purpose of training that MOST families share. Which is cool. But wasn't WSL a boxer, so he liked to rumble back in the day! My Sifu wasn't an angel, but he steered me away from getting into trouble.

Personally, I was trained as a performer first (very akin to opera really) then the fighting sort of came naturally a bit later on but I choose not to train specifically to fight (in comps)

Besides there are no decent Wing Chun competitions either, and as much as I enjoy watching the likes of UFC, M1, K1 etc I don't think that is the best platform to showcase Wing Chun imo.

The main problem is that many people in the Wing Chun world today have turned the system on its head. It makse no sense, lacks functionality and is only good for demonstrations. When you have an opponent in front of you that wants to tear your head from your shoulders it can pose many problems for a lot of todays WC systems. This my opinion.
On top of that the correct system only shows you the way. Just because you practice MMA or VT it doesn't make you indestructible. The human factor is always the problem.

A good VT fighter could easily defeat a poor MMA fighter just as a good MMA fighter could defeat a poor VT fighter.......and so it goes on. Its a pointless arguement to me.

Graham H

06-15-2010, 05:34 AM

good post !

the explosive 'shocking' fighting actions of vt and feedback from the dummy :D

Philipp also mentioned to me the attacking defense cycling actions inherent in the system, jum sao strike turns to bong sao, then bong becomes tan strike then tan becomes low gaun sao etc ..just to train your arms to always have attacks going while the other is helping that be possible, if we cant be striking with both arms.

Many see the dummy as 'moves' or applications.

jum sao and tan being strikes of course ;)

Correct......Tan Sau, Jum Sau and Fook Sau train the punch. Pak Sau, Jat Sau, Bong Sau to open the way for striking. Everything in the system teaches one how to use the punch.

Many see these actions as blocks just as they see the moves on the dummy as applications. This ok for them but not ok for us. Philipps thinking on Ving Tsun is second to none but that only applies to us otherwise we wouldn't have made the transition. Everybody have different ideas. I prefer to follow the one that makes most sense to me.....:)

LoneTiger108

06-15-2010, 06:43 AM

The main problem is that many people in the Wing Chun world today have turned the system on its head. It makse no sense, lacks functionality and is only good for demonstrations. When you have an opponent in front of you that wants to tear your head from your shoulders it can pose many problems for a lot of todays WC systems. This my opinion.

I understand where you're coming from. But in all fairness Wing Chun only became known as a 'fighting style' after Bruces popularity and a few young students of Ip Man (including WSL!) made trouble with other locals and had it out on the rooftops. This was no different in Londons Chinatown too. In HK back in those days the fighters with the biggest mouths become more famous, hence the nickname "Bragger Wong!"

This, imho, was never Ip Mans intention. And if you are studying deeply into the art you will find more things in the curriculums than just a fighting method, although I too do undertsand it's overall importance.

k gledhill

06-15-2010, 07:47 AM

I understand where you're coming from. But in all fairness Wing Chun only became known as a 'fighting style' after Bruces popularity and a few young students of Ip Man (including WSL!) made trouble with other locals and had it out on the rooftops. This was no different in Londons Chinatown too. In HK back in those days the fighters with the biggest mouths become more famous, hence the nickname "Bragger Wong!"

This, imho, was never Ip Mans intention. And if you are studying deeply into the art you will find more things in the curriculums than just a fighting method, although I too do undertsand it's overall importance.

I recall another great using the 'mouth' to mentally beat guys before they ever got close to the ring . ALI mouth is fine if u can back it up ; )

shawchemical

06-15-2010, 04:13 PM

I understand where you're coming from. But in all fairness Wing Chun only became known as a 'fighting style' after Bruces popularity and a few young students of Ip Man (including WSL!) made trouble with other locals and had it out on the rooftops. This was no different in Londons Chinatown too. In HK back in those days the fighters with the biggest mouths become more famous, hence the nickname "Bragger Wong!"

This, imho, was never Ip Mans intention. And if you are studying deeply into the art you will find more things in the curriculums than just a fighting method, although I too do undertsand it's overall importance.

If you're looking for other things in a fighting system you're looking in the wrong place.

Graham H

06-16-2010, 02:14 AM

If you're looking for other things in a fighting system you're looking in the wrong place.

?????????????????????????

LoneTiger108

06-19-2010, 08:22 AM

If you're looking for other things in a fighting system you're looking in the wrong place.

I don't understand this comment either?!

The whole point of my post was to 'suggest' that Wing Chun is not just a fighting system (unless you 'want' it to be!) it's a culmination of knowledge from many past ancestors that Ip Man had the fortune and luck to study and breakdown into nice little gems that he taught for money! And quite a lot of money too!

You have to ask yourself what you want from your art, and if all you want is to learn how to fight (for competition) then go practise something a bit more sport orientated.

Now if you want to learn some san sau (sanshou) and possibly preserve knowledge left to us by seriously skilled martial artists, then in fact the wooden man training is a key to unlocking such stuff! ;)

This is why I cherish the wooden man training, and it has nothing to do with fighting. More to do with 'finishing'!

k gledhill

06-19-2010, 05:51 PM

Dummy isnt for finishing ;), its shown, should be, to beginners learning to fight. Its a myth that you wait x years to touch it or treat it as an 'end'.
It's part of the process from an early stage of development. It should help develop simultaneous actions, explosive, ballistic displacing actions, utilizing elbow ideas from SLT plus the hips, alignment, momentum etc...from CK and BG actions.
The dummy arms are situated so the striking arms elbow makes the contact on them first, as the hands stay centered striking along our centerline, cycling, making attacking defensive rotations. A further development to the dan chi-sao elbow / striking introduction
iow an integral part of the 'process' not the end of the line .

If you use your wrists and incorrect alignment you start to develop into a 'swatter' of hands trying to hit them like you hit the dummy arms, iow arm chasing with hands/wrists.

LoneTiger108

06-21-2010, 01:39 AM

Dummy isnt for finishing ;), its shown, should be, to beginners learning to fight. Its a myth that you wait x years to touch it or treat it as an 'end'.

:D Totally misunderstood what I meant there dude!

Maybe I should have said 'finishing' a fight, as used as a drilling tool the wooden man will enhance a set technique to be able to be used to its maximum.

One hit 'finish' ;)

Graham H

06-21-2010, 05:24 AM

:D Totally misunderstood what I meant there dude!

Maybe I should have said 'finishing' a fight, as used as a drilling tool the wooden man will enhance a set technique to be able to be used to its maximum.

One hit 'finish' ;)

In Ving Tsun the main weapon is the straight punch. The whole system teaches us how to best use this weapon. The Dummy improves ones "behaviour" for the fight.

We shouldn't be looking at dummy training as set techniques as many movements are not applied correctly because the dummy can't move. The limbs and the body are fixed so we need the correct ideas as to how the movements on the dummy cross over into Chi Sau/Gwoh Sau/Sparring.

As with all things in the system we need the correct tuition first and foremost else all is lost.

GH

LoneTiger108

06-21-2010, 08:25 AM

In Ving Tsun the main weapon is the straight punch. The whole system teaches us how to best use this weapon. The Dummy improves ones "behaviour" for the fight.

So can I presume that what you're saying here is that you do not drill your 'straight punch' on the wooden man?

We shouldn't be looking at dummy training as set techniques as many movements are not applied correctly because the dummy can't move. The limbs and the body are fixed so we need the correct ideas as to how the movements on the dummy cross over into Chi Sau/Gwoh Sau/Sparring.

So in your opinion, are you just training habits with your 108/116 that you transfer into sparring? Or do you drill specific sets for a specific purpose?

As with all things in the system we need the correct tuition first and foremost else all is lost.

GH

Agreed 100% ;)

k gledhill

06-21-2010, 05:11 PM

:D Totally misunderstood what I meant there dude!

Maybe I should have said 'finishing' a fight, as used as a drilling tool the wooden man will enhance a set technique to be able to be used to its maximum.

One hit 'finish' ;)

okay sorry i forgive you :D what GH said....glad someone else knows what Im trying to say, saves all the typing.

Graham H

06-21-2010, 11:35 PM

So can I presume that what you're saying here is that you do not drill your 'straight punch' on the wooden man?

On the contrary. The stright punch is drilled everywhere on the dummy....:cool:

So in your opinion, are you just training habits with your 108/116 that you transfer into sparring? Or do you drill specific sets for a specific purpose?

Yes, mainly behaviour but there are also methods to correct bad fighting situations.

You cannot train "sets" as hardly any of the dummy movements are connected with each other. However you can train many things on the dummy to improve. I personally only ever train the form when I teach it. I use the dummy for drilling actions. For instance I train the Po Pai Jeung section as a seperate drill and drill it in either timed rounds or many times. I do this everywhere. The basic form just gives you the tools. Its the same with all forms.

GH

k gledhill

06-21-2010, 11:55 PM

The dummy gives us the explosive unity of actions. using the 'rigidity' of the arm to enhance the deflections. I'm talking about sudden 'sharp' simultaneous deflections in unity with stance [body weight] in motion plus arm line action. Punches that 'glance' sudden sharp force as they strike...
the punches, at basic level, have deflective force further enhanced by hitting a rigid arm positioned so our elbows make the contact as we cycle striking....tan & jum , the basic attacking duo.
Jut is a primary attacking action we repeat often on the dummy.
Pak sao in the 3rd section to recover attacking lines.
Bongs are done on the low arm for ballistic force and speed of the elbow to make bong and recover to strike...fast ballistic force hitting an immovable wooden arm :D further trains our arms NOT to travel past our own centerline but to make sudden impact ON the line to make whatever we met on the line with 'that force' clear it for the NEXT PUNCH :D
And it really hurts the guys arm ;) recieving this force....so no mammby pammby rolling sticking attaching re-directing c r a p. I want to break your forearm in 2 with a deflection ;) THEN knock you the **** out, BUT I wont use any more force than the line will allow. So i meet your arm, you get full force, i dont meet your arm and the 'line' is my 'marker' to stay on and strike from.

Guys who ,like terence, who havent learned this way wont know what the **** I'm talking about, and those close to him ; )

Graham H

06-22-2010, 02:17 AM

All you have to do is trawl through this forum to see the conflicting ideas on Ip Man lineage Ving Tsun.

You know he must of been an amazing man to invent so many different versions of it and teach everybody different ideas!!!!!!!!! LOL......:D

LoneTiger108

06-22-2010, 06:19 AM

On the contrary. The stright punch is drilled everywhere on the dummy....:cool:

I'm glad to hear you say that!

You cannot train "sets" as hardly any of the dummy movements are connected with each other. However you can train many things on the dummy to improve. I personally only ever train the form when I teach it. I use the dummy for drilling actions. For instance I train the Po Pai Jeung section as a seperate drill and drill it in either timed rounds or many times. I do this everywhere. The basic form just gives you the tools. Its the same with all forms.

I'm trying to see what you're saying here, but as we all know, there are sometimes very different interpretations. I love to train sets, it's what makes our family a little different I suppose. And yes, some are to learn good habits but most are very specific, especially with regards to the forms. An example would be your po pai jeung 'section'. This is a set (a 'sik') for me and I too separate and drill it individually on the mook jong, with equipment, weaponry and in interactions (chisau) As long as the practise assists in the application!

....so no mammby pammby rolling sticking attaching re-directing c r a p. I want to break your forearm in 2 with a deflection THEN knock you the **** out, BUT I wont use any more force than the line will allow.

I'm liking the attention to detail here. Or should I say it's all in the intent. Great post!

Graham H

06-24-2010, 02:09 AM

I'm glad to hear you say that!

I'm trying to see what you're saying here, but as we all know, there are sometimes very different interpretations. I love to train sets, it's what makes our family a little different I suppose. And yes, some are to learn good habits but most are very specific, especially with regards to the forms. An example would be your po pai jeung 'section'. This is a set (a 'sik') for me and I too separate and drill it individually on the mook jong, with equipment, weaponry and in interactions (chisau) As long as the practise assists in the application!

So are you saying that you would use this "set" as it is in the form in Chi Sau?????

LoneTiger108

06-24-2010, 03:51 AM

So are you saying that you would use this "set" as it is in the form in Chi Sau?????

As an interactive set, yes. But again I have to say chisau for me is just an interactive exercise to test and feel varied energies from techs like the po pai you describe. Chisau is a teaching/coaching tool.

You only need to drill or select one of these variations within the set to use in application imho.

Graham H

06-24-2010, 11:48 PM

As an interactive set, yes. But again I have to say chisau for me is just an interactive exercise to test and feel varied energies from techs like the po pai you describe. Chisau is a teaching/coaching tool.

You only need to drill or select one of these variations within the set to use in application imho.

Interactive exercise???....yes!

feel varied energies???....no!

From my experience in VT too many people are spending all their training time stuck to each others arms trying to feel and manipulate "energies"....This way is not good for fighting..Only VT against VT. In my system we learn NOT to stick to arms but rather open the way for striking and ,of course, striking. :D

LoneTiger108

06-25-2010, 01:45 AM

Interactive exercise???....yes!

feel varied energies???....no!

So why interact in the first place?

From my experience in VT too many people are spending all their training time stuck to each others arms trying to feel and manipulate "energies"....This way is not good for fighting..Only VT against VT. In my system we learn NOT to stick to arms but rather open the way for striking and ,of course, striking. :D

Your view is mirrored by many, including me, but all I'm saying is that chisau is 'designed' for Wing Chun against Wing Chun (especially from what I see most people doing!) Its a teaching tool as I said. Teaching how the body initiates and reacts to force and intent. I NEVER said anything about playing patt-a-cake all day long. Training needs more direction and specifics that that imo.

If you want to take the 'idea' further and develop better ways to train to fight, then I see no problem with that.

Graham H

06-25-2010, 02:22 AM

As usual its hard to explain without being able to show.......no problem!!! EOC ;)

LoneTiger108

06-25-2010, 02:52 AM

To get this thread back on topic, as I think we've digressed a bit away from whether we feel the wooden man in useful or not!?

How was you 'first taught' to enter the wooden man??

Did you use legwork first? Tok sau in KYM? Tok sau and legwork?

I'm interested to hear from people who have experimented with ideas that sit outside of the conventional 108/116 form.

As a plum blossom student, I was taught how to enter with legwork first, then toksau chunkuen...

Graham H

06-25-2010, 03:19 AM

LoneTiger108

06-25-2010, 04:00 AM

We don't have Tok Sau. The first movment on the dummy is a punch using the upper arms as reference for the elbow.

Interesting. How exactly do you punch using the upper arms?? It sounds like you're punching two arms along one? Keeping the elbows tucked in and forwards?

As for the footwork we "cut the way" as we would to an opponent.

When I say 'legwork' I mean legwork and what is commonly termed 'kicking'! Not footwork/stepping work.

Our first legwork is the 'lifting leg' which is designed to stun (or break!) the front leg. An initial entry tech taking out the closest target prior to follow through...

Graham H

06-25-2010, 04:24 AM

Interesting. How exactly do you punch using the upper arms?? It sounds like you're punching two arms along one? Keeping the elbows tucked in and forwards?

I mean the upper arms of the dummy. The arms on the dummy are set at a specific angle and the dummy should be set to the correct height for the individual so that when we engage the elbow makes contact and not the wrist. Of course the elbows are tucked in and forwards. This allows us to use the straight punch directly and also defend our own center. This is the whole reason behind the first section of SLT.

When I say 'legwork' I mean legwork and what is commonly termed 'kicking'! Not footwork/stepping work.

Our first legwork is the 'lifting leg' which is designed to stun (or break!) the front leg. An initial entry tech taking out the closest target prior to follow through...

Only one kick our in VT. Its a kick from A to B.....no time in fighting to have "designed" kicks. This can only work when your partner coperates. When an aggresive opponent is attacking you kicking is a problem.

GH