continuation of my liberal wing chun thread...terrence, please reply first

[SavvySavage]

T_niehoff,

when you said that people are already using wing chun in mma were you referring to Alan Orr? I do not know Alan and I'm sure he's talented but why do you call what he does wing chun? It doesn't look any different than what every other mma guy is doing in the octagon. Just because Alan calls it CSL wing chun that doesn't make it wing chun... Or does it? Alan might as well have never studied wing chun because he is basically doing the same as every other mma guy. The fact that he's been successful is due to him and not his style. GSP is successful but he doesn't claim any style. If GSP claimed bak mei does that mean he is doing bak mei? I feel like if I won fights in the octagon, claimed to be MAINLY studying wing chun, you would say that I'm doing wing chun too. Even if all my fights were rolling around on the ground you'd be like, "Savvysavage is clearly using wing chun.". But only cause I'm winning. I'm not attacking you. It just seems like you're front running a bit. If Alan was getting beaten to pulp every match would you still say he was using wing chun?


We need to define wing chun because we've lost our identity. Or maybe others have been right all along. Wing chun(and all chinese martial arts) are just glorified kickboxing. Maybe we should stop holding on to the label wing chun because the way some of you describe it is too liberal.

The labels and forms are bs. Fuk tan sau. Fuk the wooden dummy form. If you all say that wing chun needs those...but them you train bjj and win with that then you might as well stop practicing the forms, chi sao, etc. Just call it MMA and lose the wing chun.

[SAAMAG]

Cocaine is a hell of a drug!

[CFT]

Just because Alan calls it CSL wing chun that doesn't make it wing chun... Or does it? Alan might as well have never studied wing chun because he is basically doing the same as every other mma guy. The fact that he's been successful is due to him and not his style.It's not just him, it's his students too. So the skill is not just at a personal level. He has a repeatable process of skill transference, a system if you will. CSLWCK is just part of that process.

[SavvySavage]

I understand that cslWck is just a part of that process. But whenever Alan puts up a thread about it he gives all credit to the wing chun so he is not saying it is a part but a bulk of the reason he is winning.


I'd like anyone to show me what exactly in Allan's matches "is" wing chun. THis is my problem with the too liberal definition of wing chun. I hope I don't get answers like, "It's all wing chun." Great. Wonderful. If one could claim it than one could point it out clearly. As I said before, if George St. Pierre claimed that bak mei was the reason he was winning would we believe him and call bak mei a great art?

What is wing chun...and where is it used exactly in the mma?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sits down on couch with a big bag of chips and a six pack of dark beer - because this thread is going to get hilarious!!! :D

[Knifefighter]

Alan might as well have never studied wing chun because he is basically doing the same as every other mma guy..

Wing Chun the way you think it is "supposed" to look looks nothing like the way you think it is supposed to look when you are fighting against an MMA fighter.

It looks different because it doesn't work the way you think it is supposed to work. People who fight full contact against skilled opponents from other styles (especially if grappling is involved) usually figure this out pretty quickly.

[SavvySavage]

Knifefighter,
I agree with you. In fact I never said wing chun is supposed to look like anything. I'm just trying to find out what the definition of wing chun is if Terrence is claiming that Alan Uses it to win mma matches. I think it's a fair question.

What the heck is wck? Is it the forms, the kuit, the techniques?

I don't believe any of the forms need practicing after a while.

[SAAMAG]

You should look at Alans nhb extreme wing chun series. It will answer all your questions and perhaps open up some areas of opportunity in your own training. I know it's done well to open my mind.

[SAAMAG]

Wing Chun the way you think it is "supposed" to look looks nothing like the way you think it is supposed to look when you are fighting against an MMA fighter.

It looks different because it doesn't work the way you think it is supposed to work. People who fight full contact against skilled opponents from other styles (especially if grappling is involved) usually figure this out pretty quickly.

As a side note: Fighting in mma does not equate to being skilled. There are different levels of "skill" in mma just as in any other venue.

[MysteriousPower]

CSL wing chun IMO looks like tai chi push hands with hitting. What exactly is so special about this method?

[Knifefighter]

Fighting in mma does not equal skilled. Let's get real here.

OK, I'm fine with that. Let me rephrase.

It looks different because it doesn't work the way you think it is supposed to work. People who fight full contact against any kind of opponent from other styles (especially if grappling is involved) usually figure this out pretty quickly.

[Knifefighter]

What exactly is so special about this method?

It actually works... unlike push hands with hitting.

[SavvySavage]

Knifefighter,

I think you're just saying it works because Alan Orr is winning and says he uses csl wck. If he claimed karate like Machida we'd be talking about karate.

HOW does it work? When, where. What fight?

[SAAMAG]

OK, I'm fine with that. Let me rephrase.

It looks different because it doesn't work the way you think it is supposed to work. People who fight full contact against any kind of opponent from other styles (especially if grappling is involved) usually figure this out pretty quickly.

Agreed sir.

[SAAMAG]

Knifefighter,

I think you're just saying it works because Alan Orr is winning and says he uses csl wck. If he claimed karate like Machida we'd be talking about karate.

HOW does it work? When, where. What fight?

Seriously, look at Alan's NHB series. It will save you a lot of typing.

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter,

I think you're just saying it works because Alan Orr is winning and says he uses csl wck. If he claimed karate like Machida we'd be talking about karate.

HOW does it work? When, where. What fight?

It's WC because he uses the WC teaching tools to teach his students to fight in MMA.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's WC because he uses the WC teaching tools to teach his students to fight in MMA.

The criticism of "larper arts" is that they train one way and fight another. That is the criticism of Alan. They train their WC "Larping" for a portion of each class, then they practice mma the rest of the time. And, they fight mma.

[Knifefighter]

The criticism of "larper arts" is that they train one way and fight another. That is the criticism of Alan. They train their WC "Larping" for a portion of each class, then they practice mma the rest of the time. And, they fight mma.

That's what has to be done if it's going to actually work in full-contact MMA situations.

Practice "just WC" and you get your a$$ handed to you in MMA.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's what has to be done if it's going to actually work in full-contact MMA situations.

Practice "just WC" and you get your a$$ handed to you in MMA.

My thought is that WC itself could be practiced in a less larping way so that it becomes more useful. Rather than, "Let's chi sao and dummy larp for 20 minutes and then work on boxing."

[Knifefighter]

My thought is that WC itself could be practiced in a less larping way so that it becomes more useful. Rather than, "Let's chi sao and dummy larp for 20 minutes and then work on boxing."

I think you will find that is exactly what Alan is trying to do with his approach.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think you will find that is exactly what Alan is trying to do with his approach.

I am not there to see what he does so I don't want to criticize to heavily. I am glad that he is doing something realistic. To be honest, I just don't see how the Chi Sao and Dummy Exercises are going to stay a viable part of WC if the push is to make sure that every inductor is a credible fighter. Honestly, as the Old guard passes, I just don't see those things remaining part of the system.

[t_niehoff]

Consider this --

Look at how good fighters, in the functional martial arts, teach their students. They don't teach from a "conceptual" POV (X is a conceptual martial art) -- instead they teach the things they are doing that are working in fighting at a very high level. In other words, they are teaching WHAT THEY ARE DOING, what is working consistently, and working against good, skilled people. So their students are learning fundamentally sound skills, things that will work under pressure. Then they practice them under pressure in sparring (which is the core of all the functional martial arts). In summary, you've got good fighters teaching others what they do successfully do in fighting and then having those students practice it in fighting. In the functional martial arts, what you see taught, you will consistently see again and again successfully work in sparring. If it doesn't work, they will drop teaching it. Is it any wonder this produces good results in the students?

Now, contrast that with most WCK teachers (including the masters and grandmasters). They teach "concepts" (ideas of how they think things should work) and various "applications" that they NEVER consistently pull of in sparring (isn't it funny when these guys put on demos of WCK --why is it their "fighting" never looks like what they demo?), and certainly not against any decently skilled people. So, by teaching concepts and theoretical "applications", they are teaching their students things they cannot do. And they practice them mainly in unrealistic exercises/drills (which doesn't develop realistic skills) or against scrubs which tricks them into believing that those things are good. This is training to fail. It's the blind leading the blind.

One of the chief signs of training to fail is that people move one way in how they learn/practice and another way when they fight. With good training, the way you learn/practice is the same as what you do in fighting.

Why can't WCK people teach like the fighters in the functional martial arts do?

The answer is they are not fighters. They don't train like fighters, they don't train/spar with good fighters, etc. They can't teach what is working for them since they aren't fighting (except in their imaginations, when they are "bouncing", when the ninja attack them in the street, etc.), and they don't know what works against decent fighters.

Alan and his guys are fighters, they train like fighters, they go out and train with/ spar with the best fighters (MMA, etc.) they can find. Alan and his guys have traveled from the UK to the US to train with Eddie Millis. They also train with the best people in the UK. They work out through fighting what works and what doesn't, etc. Anyone can do what they do -- if they put in the work, the right kind of work.

Who else is doing that? You see, it's not about CSL WCK. But Robert, to his credit, tells his students this is what they MUST do if they want to develop their WCK to be functional. This is what "let application be your sifu" means.

[MysteriousPower]

When you were ranting about masters and grandmasters you technically insulted your sifu, Robert. How can you praise him and diss him at the sane time? What you don't seem to understand is that you learned wck from someone that has never fought a professional fight. So how do you know what he teaches is functional? I am not speaking badly of your sifu. I am just pointing out the major flaw in all of your logic.


Consider this --

Look at how good fighters, in the functional martial arts, teach their students. They don't teach from a "conceptual" POV (X is a conceptual martial art) -- instead they teach the things they are doing that are working in fighting at a very high level. In other words, they are teaching WHAT THEY ARE DOING, what is working consistently, and working against good, skilled people. So their students are learning fundamentally sound skills, things that will work under pressure. Then they practice them under pressure in sparring (which is the core of all the functional martial arts). In summary, you've got good fighters teaching others what they do successfully do in fighting and then having those students practice it in fighting. In the functional martial arts, what you see taught, you will consistently see again and again successfully work in sparring. If it doesn't work, they will drop teaching it. Is it any wonder this produces good results in the students?

Now, contrast that with most WCK teachers (including the masters and grandmasters). They teach "concepts" (ideas of how they think things should work) and various "applications" that they NEVER consistently pull of in sparring (isn't it funny when these guys put on demos of WCK --why is it their "fighting" never looks like what they demo?), and certainly not against any decently skilled people. So, by teaching concepts and theoretical "applications", they are teaching their students things they cannot do. And they practice them mainly in unrealistic exercises/drills (which doesn't develop realistic skills) or against scrubs which tricks them into believing that those things are good. This is training to fail. It's the blind leading the blind.

One of the chief signs of training to fail is that people move one way in how they learn/practice and another way when they fight. With good training, the way you learn/practice is the same as what you do in fighting.

Why can't WCK people teach like the fighters in the functional martial arts do?

The answer is they are not fighters. They don't train like fighters, they don't train/spar with good fighters, etc. They can't teach what is working for them since they aren't fighting (except in their imaginations, when they are "bouncing", when the ninja attack them in the street, etc.), and they don't know what works against decent fighters.

Alan and his guys are fighters, they train like fighters, they go out and train with/ spar with the best fighters (MMA, etc.) they can find. Alan and his guys have traveled from the UK to the US to train with Eddie Millis. They also train with the best people in the UK. They work out through fighting what works and what doesn't, etc. Anyone can do what they do -- if they put in the work, the right kind of work.

Who else is doing that? You see, it's not about CSL WCK. But Robert, to his credit, tells his students this is what they MUST do if they want to develop their WCK to be functional. This is what "let application be your sifu" means.

[m1k3]

When you were ranting about masters and grandmasters you technically insulted your sifu, Robert. How can you praise him and diss him at the sane time? What you don't seem to understand is that you learned wck from someone that has never fought a professional fight. So how do you know what he teaches is functional? I am not speaking badly of your sifu. I am just pointing out the major flaw in all of your logic.

What does this have to do with what T. posted? He gave you a recipe for training and your response is "You are dissing your sifu".

Let's skip the misdirection and why don't you give us is your opinion on what T. said about training?

[Frost]

What does this have to do with what T. posted? He gave you a recipe for training and your response is "You are dissing your sifu".

Let's skip the misdirection and why don't you give us is your opinion on what T. said about training?

a good point, whilst everyone here seems to insult and bash him, no one actually can argue with his points, or if they do they can't post any proof to back up their claims, it seems they shoot the messenger because they can;t fight the message

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most people's issues with T is NOT his views about training, it is is views that NO ONE else does that type of training and can possibly DISAGREE with him.

[MysteriousPower]

T gives the same exact opiniOn over and over again like a broken record. My opinion is that his beliefs are flawed since they came from a non-mma fighting source.

He shot himself in the foot.

Whether or not I agree does not matter. T was saying in another thread that humblewc was a poser because he wouldn't reveal his sifu. Even Sanjoro questioned his answers based on his lack of qualifications. If it's true for humble than it's true for T. How can T take what his teacher has said beyond gospel if his reacher gas never fought?

I am not trying to question T's teacher. His reputation is honorable but he is not the mma giant that T pretends to have learned from. T keeps sending out Robert's words as his own but what is the foundation of these words?

[goju]

not only that he tends to beat the dead horse quite a bit as well on here

this is the same crapolla he has been repeating months and months ago and its getting pretty old to be honest

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even Sanjoro questioned his answers based on his lack of qualifications.

I questioned why ANYONE would keep their teacher and lineage a secret, not his qualifications, one can't question what is unknown.
As for T, he has always been up front with who he trained with and which views are his and which are his sifu(s).

[SavvySavage]

My thread has been hijacked. Someone performed lap da and grabbed it away from me like a bully stealing lunch money.

This thread is like my child. I put the work into it(sex/typing) and now Madonna is trying to steal it. Atleast she paid the Africans. I didn't get a dime. Don't steal my baby

[sanjuro_ronin]

My thread has been hijacked. Someone performed lap da and grabbed it away from me like a bully stealing lunch money.

This thread is like my child. I put the work into it(sex/typing) and now Madonna is trying to steal it. Atleast she paid the Africans. I dint get a dime. Don't steal my baby

Nothing wrong with "lap work".
http://www.motivationalz.com/pictures/lap_dance.jpg

[TenTigers]

just because someone didn't fight in the ring, doesn't mean they haven't fought. Sure, it is different, but it doesn't make it entirely "conceptual," as you put it.
It's not really black & white. There are grey areas as well.
Some people have fought in the street, in gangs, in underground smokers, tournaments, etc.
Their conditioning, tactics, might be different, but they can still bring alot to the table.
Sometimes, you need to pare certain techniques down, focus on the high percentage ones, drop the more risky techniques, etc.
There is indeed a process, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[SAAMAG]

I think the point made by mysterious is a valid one. I was thinking the exact same thing when watching the video on applications. Roberts applications (on the DVD) are very different than Alan's.

The reason for this I suspect is because Robert gives the fundamental (or advanced depending on perspective) wing chun and tells his students that the way to make the concepts and theories come alive is to test them in combat...because contrary to what T says about concepts and principles aren't part of wing chun...Robert uses them as much as the next wc sifu does. So what t says and what seems to be reality isn't always the same


Though everything T wrote is correct in terms of a training model, it's nothing new. Yip Man advocated this. As did any other teacher of legitimate fighting arts did. The crap wing chun started with huge organizations, beimo disappearing, and people generally trusting what they're told without testing.

[m1k3]

I think the whole thing is boiling down to what is wing chun now and what is it going to be in the future.

Vankuen brought up a good point with beimo disappearing, but now it is back, in the form of SanDa, Kickboxing and MMA tournaments. There are plenty of small local tournaments that schools can test themselves in. Some schools are moving in that direction and some are remaining 'traditional' (no connection with TWC intended). It will interesting to watch and see how this all plays out.

[TenTigers]

I think the whole thing is boiling down to what is wing chun now and what is it going to be in the future.

Vankuen brought up a good point with beimo disappearing, but now it is back, in the form of SanDa, Kickboxing and MMA tournaments. There are plenty of small local tournaments that schools can test themselves in. Some schools are moving in that direction, back to tradional, old school training, and some are remaining lame. It will interesting to watch and see how this all plays out.

there. fixed it for ya!:D

[t_niehoff]

Most people's issues with T is NOT his views about training, it is is views that NO ONE else does that type of training and can possibly DISAGREE with him.

Not true. Good, skilled people can disagree about many things. For example, I don't agree with all of Dale's views, I don't agree with all of Alan's views, I don't agree with all of Thornton's views, etc. Yet, on a fundamental level, there is a general agreement because when you share certain experiences, you tend to look at things similarly.

Most people on this forum don't agree with me because they do not share my views about training. Most people on a MMA forum would agree with me since they do share my views about training.

[YungChun]

Most people on this forum don't agree with me because they do not share my views about training. Most people on a MMA forum would agree with me since they do share my views about training.

More BS...

Most people do agree with most of what he says.. It's when they don't that he pulls the BS AH out of his butt.

[t_niehoff]

I think the point made by mysterious is a valid one. I was thinking the exact same thing when watching the video on applications. Roberts applications (on the DVD) are very different than Alan's.


Those aren't applications. Did you see Robert fight on the DVD? If not, then you didn't see him apply WCK.



The reason for this I suspect is because Robert gives the fundamental (or advanced depending on perspective) wing chun and tells his students that the way to make the concepts and theories come alive is to test them in combat...because contrary to what T says about concepts and principles aren't part of wing chun...Robert uses them as much as the next wc sifu does. So what t says and what seems to be reality isn't always the same


What Robert is doing is trying to show his curriculum, and using various "examples" to illustrate things. He is not showing application.
Application IS fighting. And, he is presenting his curriculum to a certain "group" and at a certain level. He tailors his message for that intended group.

I don't know what you mean by "what t says and what seems to be reality isn't always the same"-- how is what I say not how things are?



Though everything T wrote is correct in terms of a training model, it's nothing new. Yip Man advocated this. As did any other teacher of legitimate fighting arts did. The crap wing chun started with huge organizations, beimo disappearing, and people generally trusting what they're told without testing.

I've never claimed to have anything new.

When Rene went to visit Sum, he asked Sum what the main difference was between the old guys who were good and today's folks. Sum told him that in teh past, they fought. Sum fought ALL the time. He was a hard-drinking, bad tempered guy who liked to fight and was constantly fighting. He got better at fighting by fighting.

Hawkins realized the same thing. When he was in HK, he didn't want to fight on the streets since it was illegal, so he joined a karate class that sparred so he could practice.

Today, instead of getting into street fights -- which is not only very dangerous but provides only very uneven experience -- we can go train with good, proven fighters, do lots of sparring with really good people, people Hawkins and Sum and our ancestors didn't have access to. What happened when the HK WCK guys went to Thailand to fight the Thais? They got whipped. Because they didn't train like the Thai's, they didn't fight with good people like the Thai's, etc.

[t_niehoff]

More BS...

Most people do agree with most of what he says.. It's when they don't that he pulls the BS AH out of his butt.

Why do you think the folks on a MMA forum would disagree with me about how to train? I am using their approach to training. I'm saying to do what the good, proven fighters say to do, what the good proven fight trainers say to do.

[YungChun]

Why do you think the folks on a MMA forum would disagree with me about how to train? I am using their approach to training. I'm saying to do what the good, proven fighters say to do, what the good proven fight trainers say to do.

What are you talking about?

Where did I comment on what folks in an MMA forum say?

[t_niehoff]

When you were ranting about masters and grandmasters you technically insulted your sifu, Robert. How can you praise him and diss him at the sane time? What you don't seem to understand is that you learned wck from someone that has never fought a professional fight. So how do you know what he teaches is functional? I am not speaking badly of your sifu. I am just pointing out the major flaw in all of your logic.

You don't understand what I'm talking about.

First, about making your art functional. What Robert teaches isn't functional. What Rickson teaches isn't functional. It is YOU that make it functional by your training (sparring), the work you put in. This is true of BJJ, of boxing, and of WCK.

Second, you need to appreciate the difference between the curriculum and the subject matter. Robert's curriculum is IMO traditionally oriented. He in many ways is a very traditional sifu and he retains those traditional elements (forms, kuit, dummy, etc.). Yet, in other ways, he is very nontraditional. My personal view, from working with good fighters, is that the traditional way is a very poor way to teach and provides very little real training. I had to take what Robert taught me (via traditional methods) and put it together in a modern, functional way.

Robert can't teach you to make your WCK work. He can teach you the method of WCK and fundamental skills you need to implement the method. That's it. The rest is up to you.

It's like learning to surf. Do you need to learn to surf from a professional surfer? How can someone that never surfed at a professional level teach you to surf? Well, that's your "logic".

How do you know that what you are being taught are the fundamental skills? By doing it. It always come back to that.

[t_niehoff]

What are you talking about?

Where did I comment on what folks in an MMA forum say?

Oh, I see, so you were saying that most people HERE agree with my views on training? Really? If so, then why is hardly anyone doing it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not true. Good, skilled people can disagree about many things. For example, I don't agree with all of Dale's views, I don't agree with all of Alan's views, I don't agree with all of Thornton's views, etc. Yet, on a fundamental level, there is a general agreement because when you share certain experiences, you tend to look at things similarly.

Most people on this forum don't agree with me because they do not share my views about training. Most people on a MMA forum would agree with me since they do share my views about training.

Dude, people don't like YOU because you are arrogant and obnoxious and preach the same message over and over again, like some religious convert.
Your message is that you need to test your MA with the highest caliber people you can find and adapt and make changes to make it work.
NO ONE here denies that or thinks that is wrong, though some may argue HOW MUCH of that is needed, they will not argue that it IS needed.
People just don't like you because you are a broken record with this.
Its you Bro, not your message.

[SAAMAG]

Those aren't applications. Did you see Robert fight on the DVD? If not, then you didn't see him apply WCK.

What Robert is doing is trying to show his curriculum, and using various "examples" to illustrate things. He is not showing application.
Application IS fighting. And, he is presenting his curriculum to a certain "group" and at a certain level. He tailors his message for that intended group.


Perhaps then I don't know how to understand english because he calls them "applications". Used the term just as clear as he did the term "concepts" several times. It's even on the back of the DVD case...both applications and the word principles. Another word you seem to hate being associated with wing chun.

But you're right--he's not truly applying it. Moreso he's illustrating how it would be applied against a person. The long and short of it is that his "illustrations" of how the move would be done against someone are more traditionally done than how Alan would apply it in an MMA context--if at all. There were movements in there that even I wouldn't do because experience has shown me the lack of effectiveness in that particular movement.

Example...tok jeung to someone's behind will do NOTHING for you in a fight outside of people calling you a *** for grabbing his teabag.



I don't know what you mean by "what t says and what seems to be reality isn't always the same"-- how is what I say not how things are?

Meaning that the things you talk about like wing chun not being conceptual...are indeed conceptual per your TEACHER. So whenever you spout that particular mantra you're going against what your sifu says (and just about every other wing chun person out there to include fighters like WSL and GL and HC and YM himself).

Not to mention that Robert seems to work his wing chun in a more traditional manner than a conventional one. So all your talk of training methods also goes against what can be surmised from Robert's DVD. Then again, you're your own person so you can change whatever you wish. I know I've done the same with my personal iteration of the system as well.



I've never claimed to have anything new.

The point was that you're talking about it OVER AND OVER again...like its some new epiphany that you've come across. When in fact its been done for centuries in this way. Ima start calling you WCJ - Wing Chun Jesus! WWWCJD?! (...and Dale can be John the Babblingtist)



When Rene went to visit Sum, he asked Sum what the main difference was between the old guys who were good and today's folks. Sum told him that in teh past, they fought. Sum fought ALL the time. He was a hard-drinking, bad tempered guy who liked to fight and was constantly fighting. He got better at fighting by fighting.

Hawkins realized the same thing. When he was in HK, he didn't want to fight on the streets since it was illegal, so he joined a karate class that sparred so he could practice.

OK. So he was a thug to you. My current sifu's recount of who Sum Nung was a bit different. Unless we knew him personally its hearsay and irrelevant. As a side note, everyone at that time got better at fighting by fighting. Wing chun schools fought CLF schools and all sorts of other schools all the time.



Today, instead of getting into street fights -- which is not only very dangerous but provides only very uneven experience -- we can go train with good, proven fighters, do lots of sparring with really good people, people Hawkins and Sum and our ancestors didn't have access to. What happened when the HK WCK guys went to Thailand to fight the Thais? They got whipped. Because they didn't train like the Thai's, they didn't fight with good people like the Thai's, etc.

I agree with this part. Coupled with the fact that sparring with anyone that's better than you will provide good feedback. They don't have to be elite fighters...just better than YOU.

BTW...my understanding of the WC vs MT matches went that both sides won at times. But then unless we were there or have documentation that's all hearsay as well and not a viable source of information. It would be interesting to see something in terms of a report or written documenting of the fights.

[YungChun]

Example...tok jeung to someone's behind

Okay I admit it.. I have no idea what this is..

Can you elaborate?

[SAAMAG]

Okay I admit it.. I have no idea what this is..

Can you elaborate?

NOPE. You gotta get the video!!!! ;) I'm being a little joking about that movement, it was intended to be more of a liu yam jeung (but attacking the groin from a behind position) if my understanding is correct.

I don't want to talk about too much specifics because well...it's Roberts DVD and to be fair the information should be given by him if its going to be given for free.

[Knifefighter]

BTW...my understanding of the WC vs MT matches went that both sides won at times. But then unless we were there or have documentation that's all hearsay as well and not a viable source of information. It would be interesting to see something in terms of a report or written documenting of the fights.

I used to have an old paperback book titled "Muay Thai". There was an entire section devoted to the pictures of the MT guys destroying the WC guys. Wish I would have kept it.

[SAAMAG]

I love old books! Yea you should have kept it. At the same time that's an account of just one of the matches. I had heard that there were several, and that while the MT guys won more often than not, it was attributed to better conditioning (you'd think EVERYONE would realize that fighting involves being in shape to fight--go figure).

I enjoy training in both styles and think they blend well. Lots of similarities...but lots of differences too.

[TenTigers]

I remember when those fights occurred. It was in the 70's. It was a total sham. The Thais pitted seasoned pros against neophyte students or worse.
Total bullsh1t.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember when those fights occurred. It was in the 70's. It was a total sham. The Thais pitted seasoned pros against neophyte students or worse.
Total bullsh1t.

Why? because they thais sent their "best" and the WC people didn't?
Well, why didn't they?

[TenTigers]

well, the "story" goes, that the Thais organized the entire event for the reasons of popularizing Muay Thai, so they picked the contestants. They took their top fighters and pitted them against people who had zero experience.

[YungChun]

Any time you have VT going to Thailand to fight the VT folks should get serious props...

In most cases none of the VT folks are going to be seasoned full contact fighters.. I am sure I don't need to explain that..

But they are going a long way to fight folks in their environment, with their rules and their game.

Most of those folks wanted to test themselves and they did.

[Knifefighter]

If I remember correctly, there were two sets of matches. The WC people put together a team of WC fighters to go to Thailand. They fought with gloves and the WC people claimed that they lost because of this. There was another team of fighters who went over to fight with no gloves. They also lost. Because of the this, there became a popular saying in Thailand which was something along the lines of, "Kung fu cannot fight without gloves either."

[SAAMAG]

Lol man that's harsh. Well, at least Chinese have a better economy than Thailand!

[SavvySavage]

There's no doubt about the Thai/wing chun fights. The wing chun guys were dominated. The debate is a moot point. Perhaps those wing chun guys were deadly street fighters but in the ring they lacked any intimidating factors and were facing opponents with sure skill. It doesn't matter how the Chinese martial artists try to spin it.

[YungChun]

I doubt they were the only VT to ever go to Thailand..

We had some guys from the old Moy Yat school go (with Mickey Chan) as well at least once years ago.. I was not there but as I recall 2 guys were disqualified...

If anyone has more info on this I'd be interested in hearing about it.

I am sure other VT has went there too and I am sure they won't be the last.

[TenTigers]

I remember the article in Kuen Way, a HK MA mag. One of the pictures showed the Kung-Fu "fighter" dropping both hands to attempt to block a low roundhouse kick to the leg. That's not good in any system, certainly not advocated in WCK.
Anyone with a smatterring of training knows this. It appeared as if they just took some kids off the street and fed them to the wolves. It was no spin, it was completely orchestrated by the Thais.
(of course, that might be the spin...oh well...)

[YungChun]

Anyone with a smatterring of training knows this.


You'd think so, and yet.........:o

[Knifefighter]

Hey, here's an idea:

Since both of you can do it better, why don't you jump into some Muay Thai matches and see how well you can keep your hands up? You can post the clips of that here.

How about it? You guys are the WC "experts." How about showing some of that expertise?

[YungChun]

Hey, here's an idea:

Since both of you can do it better, why don't you jump into some Muay Thai matches and see how well you can keep your hands up? You can post the clips of that here.

How about it? You guys are the WC "experts." How about showing some of that expertise?

I've got an idea too... It involves your lips...and what you can do with them... :)

[SAAMAG]

Well technically it's not his lips that are typing...

[Ultimatewingchun]

dude, people don't like you because you are arrogant and obnoxious and preach the same message over and over again, like some religious convert.
Your message is that you need to test your ma with the highest caliber people you can find and adapt and make changes to make it work.
No one here denies that or thinks that is wrong, though some may argue how much of that is needed, they will not argue that it is needed.
People just don't like you because you are a broken record with this.
Its you bro, not your message.

***this...

[goju]

anyone hear of this?

http://www.martialartinstitute.com/todays_topic_9_applied_wing_chun_in_thailand.htm

[SAAMAG]

The title is a bit of a misnomer, as he didn't use wing chun in the fight but muay thai. Wai po tang is a tough guy though. I remember seeing footage of him long ago.

[Frost]

If I remember correctly, there were two sets of matches. The WC people put together a team of WC fighters to go to Thailand. They fought with gloves and the WC people claimed that they lost because of this. There was another team of fighters who went over to fight with no gloves. They also lost. Because of the this, there became a popular saying in Thailand which was something along the lines of, "Kung fu cannot fight without gloves either."

yep i remember reading about those too, the only wingchun guys i have heard of that have come close to doing well against thais also trained boxing or thai boxing as well, pure wing chun guys got destroyed

[t_niehoff]

Dude, people don't like YOU because you are arrogant


Yet, I'm one of the very few who admit to being not that good, who admits to regularly taking beatings, etc.



and obnoxious


You got me there.



and preach the same message over and over again, like some religious convert.


I preach the same message IN RESPONSE TO THE SAME NONSENSE. Why is it that the theoretical nonfighters can put the same old sh1t up over and over -- I've been seeing it for almost 30 f#cking years -- and no one complains about it?

Look, WCK is almost DEAD as a martial art. It's on a respirator. Why the hell would anyone who wants to learn to fight today start practicing WCK? Who are they going to go to to learn? It's either fantasy, theoretical guys or WCK kickboxers (who don't need to learn WCK to do what they do).

I'm sorry it annoys you to have me constantly telling people to wake the f#ck up, but what is the alternative?



Your message is that you need to test your MA with the highest caliber people you can find and adapt and make changes to make it work.


That's just a part of my "message".



NO ONE here denies that or thinks that is wrong, though some may argue HOW MUCH of that is needed, they will not argue that it IS needed.


I don't agree with you. WHO here is doing that? Who here is going to MMA schools and MT school and sparring, trying to make their WCK work? Tell me. Who? If they agreed with me they'd be doing it. They're not.

And if they were, they wouldn't be saying the nonsense that they spew.



People just don't like you because you are a broken record with this.
Its you Bro, not your message.

Yeah, and the typical sh1t I hear about WCK is a broken record of nonsense. I can stop pointing out the nonsense, and what will we be left with?

[MysteriousPower]

T,
your wing chun teacher is technically a theoretical non-fighter. Why do you accord him so much respect and everyone else none? Why do you repeat his words and kuit if they are theoretical and not actually proven?

You should either not affiliate yourself with him or let us all rest in peace and consider us nonfighters to be just as good.

[goju]

I preach the same message IN RESPONSE TO THE SAME NONSENSE. Why is it that the theoretical nonfighters can put the same old sh1t up over and over -- I've been seeing it for almost 30 f#cking years -- and no one complains about it?

Look, WCK is almost DEAD as a martial art. It's on a respirator. Why the hell would anyone who wants to learn to fight today start practicing WCK? Who are they going to go to to learn? It's either fantasy, theoretical guys or WCK kickboxers (who don't need to learn WCK to do what they do).

I'm sorry it annoys you to have me constantly telling people to wake the f#ck up, but what is the alternative?

A better question would be why are you so obsessed with what other people are doing and why do you feel you are responsible for telling people to as you put it wake the **** up?


maybe if you spent less time trying to "enlighten" people on here and more time training you wouldn't be getting you ass kicked regularly in your gym

dont ya think?

[t_niehoff]

A better question would be why are you so obsessed with what other people are doing and why do you feel you are responsible for telling people to as you put it wake the **** up?

maybe if you spent less time trying to "enlighten" people on here and more time training you wouldn't be getting you ass kicked regularly in your gym

dont ya think?

I'm not obsessed with other people, I'm concerned about the state of something I hold dear (WCK). It's dying. It's almost gone. I don't think it's going to make it.

I train 4-5 days a week. That's about the limit of what my body can take. If I do more, I burn out, start getting injured, etc.

[goju]

I'm not obsessed with other people, I'm concerned about the state of something I hold dear (WCK). It's dying. It's almost gone. I don't think it's going to make it.

I train 4-5 days a week. That's about the limit of what my body can take. If I do more, I burn out, start getting injured, etc.

Of course you are

you jump all over everyones posts and criticize it and tell them they dont know what they are doing and they've never trained with this or that blah blah blah

and youve been doing this for quite some time apparently from what ive read

this being noted it very safe to say you are extremely obsessed with what posters on here are doing which is quite weird to say the least

further since youre "not that good" i thought id help you with a bit of advice ( id like to think im pretty good)

your regular "beatings" as you put it shouldnt be happening

sure everyone here who trains hard and with a quality gym gets roughed up here and there but if you are regularly getting slapped around at where ever you train then you are sparring with people who are at waaaaay too high of a level for you and you and your gym should be responsible enough to put you with partners who are at your level so you will actually learn something instead of getting stomped


and if you are so concerned about your art dieing then why didnt you ever train hard enough to where you were very skilled?

the best way to presere your art is through your own efforts

as they say if you want to get things done right then do them yourself:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yet, I'm one of the very few who admit to being not that good, who admits to regularly taking beatings, etc.



You got me there.



I preach the same message IN RESPONSE TO THE SAME NONSENSE. Why is it that the theoretical nonfighters can put the same old sh1t up over and over -- I've been seeing it for almost 30 f#cking years -- and no one complains about it?

Look, WCK is almost DEAD as a martial art. It's on a respirator. Why the hell would anyone who wants to learn to fight today start practicing WCK? Who are they going to go to to learn? It's either fantasy, theoretical guys or WCK kickboxers (who don't need to learn WCK to do what they do).

I'm sorry it annoys you to have me constantly telling people to wake the f#ck up, but what is the alternative?



That's just a part of my "message".



I don't agree with you. WHO here is doing that? Who here is going to MMA schools and MT school and sparring, trying to make their WCK work? Tell me. Who? If they agreed with me they'd be doing it. They're not.

And if they were, they wouldn't be saying the nonsense that they spew.



Yeah, and the typical sh1t I hear about WCK is a broken record of nonsense. I can stop pointing out the nonsense, and what will we be left with?

I am not saying I disagree with you T, I am just saying that your message is getting lost because of HOW you say it and because you have no credibility to say it to the people you wanna get it across.
I like you and while I don't agree with the mode of your message, I agree with it, 100%.
There is no reason for me to like you, I don't know you and you are an ass on th internet, but I see the passion you have for WCk and I respect that and from that, a "like" feeling grew.
But I do dislike your one sided and extremist views at times, but I have personal issues with extremissim, so.

[t_niehoff]

T,
your wing chun teacher is technically a theoretical non-fighter. Why do you accord him so much respect and everyone else none? Why do you repeat his words and kuit if they are theoretical and not actually proven?

You should either not affiliate yourself with him or let us all rest in peace and consider us nonfighters to be just as good.

The TMAs traditionally have two parts -- the curriculum and applying that curriculum. To use an analogy, the curriculum is like learning how the pieces move in chess and the "rules" (objectives, etc.) of the game, and applying that curriculum is actually playing the game of chess (which involves moving the pieces).

The founders of WCK, our ancestors, created the game, and they passed down the curriculum which is historically comprised of the faat mun, the kuen kuit, the forms, the dummy, and the exercises/drills. These are the pieces of the puzzle, or to go back to my analogy. how the pieces move and the "rules" of the game. All any traditional WCK sifu (that is one who uses the classical curriculum) can give you is the curriculum, the pieces to the puzzle. They can't put the pieces together for you.

What I object to is when people who don't even play the game (and many times don't even know how the pieces move) tell others how to play and/or confuse the curriculum with playing the game. My view is that people should restrict themselves to teaching what they themselves can do. Robert always did that with me.

Many people in WCK don't have the full curriculum. Do they need it? Well, let's just say it can't hurt to have it. I didn't have it when I went to Robert. I had practiced WCK for 17 years (and had the forms, dummy, drills, some kuit), but knew I must be missing pieces since I couldn't make WCK work to my satisfaction (I could not move in sparring using only WCK movement, for example). I was doing pretty much what everyone else was doing. Robert filled in missing pieces of the curriculum for me. He has studied with lots of people, many various lineages, etc. and from that has pieced together what is at the core of the WCK curriculum. He taught me the method (faat mun) -- which is the organizing "principle" of WCK, he taught me body structure (how to use my body to implement the faat, etc.

But I didn't just accept this as gospel. I understood that these things were only the pieces to the puzzle. I had to put the puzzle together for myself through hard work (kung fu). By doing that work, I saw for myself, through direct experience, what was useful and what wasn't.

I continually say when I make posts that my views are my own, and that I don't speak for Robert. All my views are based on my personal, direct experience, not what Robert told me. These are things I have found to be true through my experience. Some things Robert told me I have validated for myself, other things I have found to not be valid. But again, Robert told me NOT to accept anything he said as true or valid -- he told me to "let application be my sifu", not him. To find out what was true by and through fighting, not by accepting dogma.

Read the following blog:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/bullsh1t-meter/ (replace bullsh1t with the proper spelling to get the link to work).

That explains why if you are training/practicing properly, you will find the truth on your own.

[t_niehoff]

your regular "beatings" as you put it shouldnt be happening

sure everyone here who trains hard and with a quality gym gets roughed up here and there but if you are regularly getting slapped around at where ever you train then you are sparring with people who are at waaaaay too high of a level for you and you and your gym should be responsible enough to put you with partners who are at your level so you will actually learn something instead of getting stomped


Please don't talk about things you know nothing about. You have absolutely no idea what my level is, who I am training with, etc. I will listen to expert fight trainers that I have sought out to train with about how to train and not a theoretical nonfighter like you if it is all the same to you.

[goju]

Please don't talk about things you know nothing about. You have absolutely no idea what my level is, who I am training with, etc.

funny because this exactly the kind of advice you should take into consideration for yourself

you criticize how many people on this board? and with out having ever met or trained with them

and your views of these peoples is entirely speculation to make it worse

my comment above you quoted is based simply on common sense


nice job avoiding this by the way


and if you are so concerned about your art dieing then why didnt you ever train hard enough to where you were very skilled?

[YungChun]

The TMAs traditionally have two parts -- the curriculum and applying that curriculum. To use an analogy, the curriculum is like learning how the pieces move in chess and the "rules" (objectives, etc.) of the game, and applying that curriculum is actually playing the game of chess (which involves moving the pieces).

The founders of WCK, our ancestors, created the game, and they passed down the curriculum which is historically comprised of the faat mun, the kuen kuit, the forms, the dummy, and the exercises/drills. These are the pieces of the puzzle, or to go back to my analogy. how the pieces move and the "rules" of the game. All any traditional WCK sifu (that is one who uses the classical curriculum) can give you is the curriculum, the pieces to the puzzle. They can't put the pieces together for you.

What I object to is when people who don't even play the game (and many times don't even know how the pieces move) tell others how to play and/or confuse the curriculum with playing the game. My view is that people should restrict themselves to teaching what they themselves can do. Robert always did that with me.

Many people in WCK don't have the full curriculum. Do they need it? Well, let's just say it can't hurt to have it. I didn't have it when I went to Robert. I had practiced WCK for 17 years (and had the forms, dummy, drills, some kuit), but knew I must be missing pieces since I couldn't make WCK work to my satisfaction (I could not move in sparring using only WCK movement, for example). I was doing pretty much what everyone else was doing. Robert filled in missing pieces of the curriculum for me. He has studied with lots of people, many various lineages, etc. and from that has pieced together what is at the core of the WCK curriculum. He taught me the method (faat mun) -- which is the organizing "principle" of WCK, he taught me body structure (how to use my body to implement the faat, etc.

But I didn't just accept this as gospel. I understood that these things were only the pieces to the puzzle. I had to put the puzzle together for myself through hard work (kung fu). By doing that work, I saw for myself, through direct experience, what was useful and what wasn't.

I continually say when I make posts that my views are my own, and that I don't speak for Robert. All my views are based on my personal, direct experience, not what Robert told me. These are things I have found to be true through my experience. Some things Robert told me I have validated for myself, other things I have found to not be valid. But again, Robert told me NOT to accept anything he said as true or valid -- he told me to "let application be my sifu", not him. To find out what was true by and through fighting, not by accepting dogma.

Read the following blog:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/bullsh1t-meter/ (replace bullsh1t with the proper spelling to get the link to work).

That explains why if you are training/practicing properly, you will find the truth on your own.

What a nut job.. (is there a doctor in the house?)

http://www.makeshiftads.com/Images/Buttons/NutHousePoloroidA.png

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, what T is basically saying is that, regardless of style or teacher, you pretty much have to tailor a MA to yourself and you do it by pressure testing.
Nothing crazy about that.

[YungChun]

You know, what T is basically saying is that, regardless of style or teacher, you pretty much have to tailor a MA to yourself and you do it by pressure testing.
Nothing crazy about that.

C'mon... His psychosis runs a hell of a lot deeper (and longer) than that--an intricate weave of nuttiness to compensate and justify all the inconsistencies, insults and generally insane and incessant posting.

As you said we all agree with the "core"... It's the apple that's rotten.

[goju]

You know, what T is basically saying is that, regardless of style or teacher, you pretty much have to tailor a MA to yourself and you do it by pressure testing.
Nothing crazy about that.

but taking six paragraphs to say what you said in one sentence certainly is nuts LOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

but taking six paragraphs to say what you said in one sentence certainly is nuts LOL

You guys forget that T is a lawyer, it takes him 6 paragraphs and one deposition to say good morning.

[m1k3]

You know, what T is basically saying is that, regardless of style or teacher, you pretty much have to tailor a MA to yourself and you do it by pressure testing.
Nothing crazy about that.

And he is also saying you have to go where there are people who fight to test it. I think far too many schools pressure test only within their walls, or their linage, or within their style. In those cases there is not enough pressure in the testing. It becomes a steady downward spiral. Just look at the chi sao competitions.

Everyone in the school doesn't need to compete but the school needs to compete. San Da, Kickboxing or MMA. Without this the path to bullshido is wide and easy.

So, does your school compete?

[sanjuro_ronin]

And he is also saying you have to go where there are people who fight to test it. I think far too many schools pressure test only within their walls, or their linage, or within their style. In those cases there is not enough pressure in the testing. It becomes a steady downward spiral. Just look at the chi sao competitions.

Everyone in the school doesn't need to compete but the school needs to compete. San Da, Kickboxing or MMA. Without this the path to bullshido is wide and easy.

So, does your school compete?

Agreed.
I don't have a school anymore, but in my testing phase- 1984 to 2005- I tested my crap in the boxing ring, the judo mats, the kyokushin square, the MT ring and even the Vale tudo pit and even the dread "street".
It was fun, it was educational and it was painful.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by t_niehoff
"Please don't talk about things you know nothing about. You have absolutely no idea what my level is, who I am training with, etc."
.........................

***AND I'M ADDRESSING the following remarks not to Terence Niehoff, whose posts I don't read anymore - but to some of the rest of the wing chun forum posters who either:

(A) Still feel the need to answer him when he rants and criticizes

(B) Haven't quite caught on to his fraudulance

What the two groups above need to understand, imo, is that this guy has never, in all the years of posting on this forum, given any verifiable evidence as to exactly who it is he's been working with, how often, and for how long. And needless to say, what this all amounts to is Niehoff hiding "exactly what his level is"...

In fact, Robert Chu once posted about how much Terence learned from him; and once you sifted through Robert's remarks carefully, it became obvious (to me anyway) that Terence couldn't have possibly spent more than about 5 or 6 face-to-face sessions with Robert. It was carefully worded by Robert - but what I just said is exactly what it amounted to.

And everything else that Terence has said about his wing chun background has also been murky; ie.- there's no way to verify one way or the other just who he learned from, how long he studied with them, how often he attended, and what his skill level was.

The same, as I've already alluded to, with his claims to be working with mma people, MT people, and BJJ people.

And when someone from this forum last year wanted to come and spar with him in St. Louis (something that lawyer Niehoff has always presented as being do-able for the people here)....Niehoff put up road blocks - and it never happened...while trying to "spin" it so as to make the other guy look crazy.

And then there was the wing chun sparring get-together in Cleveland, Ohio about 6-7 years ago...he's coming...he's coming...he's gonna really show us how to make wing chun work...he's in great physical shape...

and then he doesn't show - and immediately stops posting here for a good 6-7 months. Coincidence?

And before that, at the HFY Friendship seminar back around 1999...he goes...and refuses to touch hands with anyone.

AND THEN....for years here...he ripped into HFY and the HFY people (including Garrett Gee of course)...for being phonies ands charlatans.

And repeated calls to post a vid of himself doing something - anything - has always resulted in nothing being posted...and with the extra added audacity (phonieness describes it better)...

of telling people on a number of occasions (posts) that they don't "deserve" to see what he can do - they have to "earn it themselves".

Excuse me, but am I the only one who sees a pattern here?

FROM THE VERY SAME GUY WHO NEVER STOPS RANTING THE SAME "YOUR WING CHUN SUCKS BECAUSE YOU CAN'T MAKE IT WORK THE WAY I'VE LEARNED TO"...

..."BECAUSE I TRAIN REALISTICALLY WITH PROVEN FIGHTERS AND YOU DON'T".

I mean, really...just who is he kidding? Well quite frankly, it seems as though he is kidding a number of people still - because of A and B listed above.

Get the clue, guys...

[YungChun]

And then there was the wing chun sparring get-together in Cleveland, Ohio about 6-7 years ago...he's coming...he's coming...he's gonna really show us how to make wing chun work...he's in great physical shape...

My God was it that long ago??? Holy $hit..:eek:



and then he doesn't show - and immediately stops posting here for a good 6-7 months. Coincidence?


Wow, remember that? The best 6 months on the forum I can remember...:D:cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ha! :D

And I loved his explanation: he found something (nameless) better to do that weekend - and decided against coming to Cleveland.

Riiiiiiight...

[YungChun]

Ha! :D

And I loved his explanation: he found something (nameless) better to do that weekend - and decided against coming to Cleveland.

Riiiiiiight...

One things for sure.. Terence doesn't pass gas unless there is some strategy behind it.. His choice was clearly calculated whatever the motive...

[anerlich]

Terence doesn't pass gas unless there is some strategy behind it.. His choice was clearly calculated whatever the motive...

LOL. No way he's in control of himself or anything else.

[t_niehoff]

Ha! :D

And I loved his explanation: he found something (nameless) better to do that weekend - and decided against coming to Cleveland.

Riiiiiiight...

No, I told you when we were discussing this gathering that I thought it was pointless to just have WCK people get together, that we should get some decent fighters (MMA) to spar with. Go back and read the thread. You didn't want to do that (no big surprise, as you won't go within 1000 feet of a real fighter's gym). As I told you, you don't learn anything significant sparring with other scrubs.

Over ten years ago I tried to put together one of these over the WCML. I thought at that time it might be good to get WCK people together and just spar. I even talked to Marc Denny about how he set up Dog Brother Gatherings. When we discussed it on the WCML, only Phil (to his credit) was interested. Then, I began training at a MMA gym and saw the folly of the idea -- you need to spar/train with good, skilled people, not other poorly skilled people. Anything else is a waste of time.

I told you all this. But, as usual, you won't listen. And that's because you believe yourself to be an expert, an authority. When, in fact, you're a scrub. There's nothing wrong with being a scrub -- we all start out that way. But some of us want to get better, and we'll actually go train at good MMA schools and good grappling schools. Some of us will actually go train with good fighters. Some of us will even go compete in NAGA.

But we've rehashed this all before. And, I'm sure we will again. After all, Victor never listens, he never learns.

[t_niehoff]

And he is also saying you have to go where there are people who fight to test it. I think far too many schools pressure test only within their walls, or their linage, or within their style. In those cases there is not enough pressure in the testing. It becomes a steady downward spiral. Just look at the chi sao competitions.

Everyone in the school doesn't need to compete but the school needs to compete. San Da, Kickboxing or MMA. Without this the path to bullshido is wide and easy.

So, does your school compete?

That's exactly right.

[t_niehoff]

What the two groups above need to understand, imo, is that this guy has never, in all the years of posting on this forum, given any verifiable evidence as to exactly who it is he's been working with, how often, and for how long. And needless to say, what this all amounts to is Niehoff hiding "exactly what his level is"...


You are a liar, and being idiotic.

I have said where (the gyms) I train many times, how often I train, etc.

Have you or anyone else posted "evidence as to exactly who it is he's been working with, how often, and for how long." No.



In fact, Robert Chu once posted about how much Terence learned from him; and once you sifted through Robert's remarks carefully, it became obvious (to me anyway) that Terence couldn't have possibly spent more than about 5 or 6 face-to-face sessions with Robert. It was carefully worded by Robert - but what I just said is exactly what it amounted to.


AS I told you before, I had trained WCK for 17 years before I went to train with Robert. I've provided the names of who I trained with. I visited Robert because I found that I was lacking in my WCK -- that I knew the forms, drills, some kuit, etc., but that I couldn't make it work to my satisfaction. I trained privately with Robert for about 100 hours of actual hands-on training with him (he and I worked out together), and I also visited his LA class, had him here for a seminar, etc. He taught me the things I was missing, things like the faat mun, body structure, the kuit, etc. - things you still don't have.

Robert told me at some point that I had learned his method and that he didn't think I needed to continue training with him, but that I should go out and "let application be my sifu."

Robert has also visited us here and met the guys I train WCK with.



And everything else that Terence has said about his wing chun background has also been murky; ie.- there's no way to verify one way or the other just who he learned from, how long he studied with them, how often he attended, and what his skill level was.


LOL! Tell me, Victor, is my "background" any "murkier" than Alan's?



The same, as I've already alluded to, with his claims to be working with mma people, MT people, and BJJ people.

And when someone from this forum last year wanted to come and spar with him in St. Louis (something that lawyer Niehoff has always presented as being do-able for the people here)....Niehoff put up road blocks - and it never happened...while trying to "spin" it so as to make the other guy look crazy.


Are you talking about Clarnece/Yoshi (who lives in St. Louis) -- the road block being he had to pay a $10 visitor fee to the YMCA! Or the HFY guy who was going to "show me" but never showed up?



And then there was the wing chun sparring get-together in Cleveland, Ohio about 6-7 years ago...he's coming...he's coming...he's gonna really show us how to make wing chun work...he's in great physical shape...

and then he doesn't show - and immediately stops posting here for a good 6-7 months. Coincidence?


I already addressed this -- you know that you are lying.



And before that, at the HFY Friendship seminar back around 1999...he goes...and refuses to touch hands with anyone.


More lies.



AND THEN....for years here...he ripped into HFY and the HFY people (including Garrett Gee of course)...for being phonies ands charlatans.


So?



And repeated calls to post a vid of himself doing something - anything - has always resulted in nothing being posted...and with the extra added audacity (phonieness describes it better)...

of telling people on a number of occasions (posts) that they don't "deserve" to see what he can do - they have to "earn it themselves".

Excuse me, but am I the only one who sees a pattern here?


Yes, that people like you who are scrubs and won't do the work of actually training with good people, but who want to consider themselves authorities, don't like being exposed.




FROM THE VERY SAME GUY WHO NEVER STOPS RANTING THE SAME "YOUR WING CHUN SUCKS BECAUSE YOU CAN'T MAKE IT WORK THE WAY I'VE LEARNED TO"...

..."BECAUSE I TRAIN REALISTICALLY WITH PROVEN FIGHTERS AND YOU DON'T".

I mean, really...just who is he kidding? Well quite frankly, it seems as though he is kidding a number of people still - because of A and B listed above.

Get the clue, guys...

No, Victor, your WCK sucks because you can't do in quality fighting what you train to do as you train to do it. Anyone can see from your video that you can't make your WCK work.

[duende]

Are you talking about Clarnece/Yoshi (who lives in St. Louis) -- the road block being he had to pay a $10 visitor fee to the YMCA! Or the HFY guy who was going to "show me" but never showed up?


JP's work was going to send him out to St Louis, and that trip got canceled. You know this.

When things were really heated between our two camps, Robert and Dave failed to keep an appointment at our school.

I used to think that was a big deal too. Now I could care less. People's schedules change... Silly Internet battles are ridiculous.

My money says 90 percent of us would probably get along perfectly well in the real world.

I'm just sayin... don't let your online ego get the best of ya! :D

[SAAMAG]

I'd bet money that certain egos go far beyond their computer screens...from one personality extreme to the other. It's the ones that hold the middle ground that will get along in real life because those individuals don't have any social disorders.