Fujian white crane fused with emei snake hybrid

[kung fu fighter]

Here is something I found on another forum and thought you guys would find an interesting read.

"Wing Chun uses Crane footwork with Snake upper body theory, but only at the "deflection" combat range. There is a lot of crossover between snake and crane due to the natural progression of the systems. But the fundamental difference is the way in which each system treats force or power. The snake seeks contact at all times to inject and envelop the opponent. Wing Chun does not do this, and Crane seeks a bridge to deliver strikes. If you look at the White Crane Jin under Master Yang's Ancestral/Sleeping Crane the power manifested from Jin is about force per square inch, or penetration. Which to me is more about flight paths (I'm still a novice with Master Yang's Baihequan).

Snake Concepts

Structure (and unstructure)
Moment of Timing/Tempo
Spatial Line (centreline, spatial line, vital point, strongpoint)
Intention
Sensitivity

Wing Chun, like snake, actually straddles the spatial line to creation spatial tension to get better sensitivity of the centreline. The snake is all about sensitivity, contact, injection and envelopment. Wing Chun has aspects of this, but it is more like crane due to its striking nature rather than envelopment. Its footwork inhibits it from being circular, instead its about angles and straight line attack, which the snake is not.

What I was meaning was that it uses Crane footwork (or at least the theory behind it) and uses Snake upper body "deflection" range techniques. Ie - that it meets and deflects the opponents force at the spatial vital point (imagine a line between your solar plexus and your opponent's (spatial line), the "balance point" between the two solar plexus is the spatial vital point).

Wing Chun straddles the spatial line to create a feeling or sensitivity for the space and the centreline, just like the snake. However, where the snake circles, Wing Chun practitioners do not. The instead use the footwork to create angles to the opponent like the crane.

I have thoroughly read Master Yang's "Essence of White Crane" book, and other material I have found. Although I know Snake, I am only giving my opinions around Crane and its footwork theory. Correct me if you know better"

[TenTigers]

I don't see the snake as making contact at all times.
Many times, it comes in with a non-linear trajectory, finding holes in the opponet's bridge.

Nor do I see it as only enveloping the opponent,
but rather the concept of intercepting th eopponet's intention-attack the attack, shutting him down at the onset, and continuation of attack until the opponent is subdued.

This is the combined body and mind of the snake.

[sanjuro_ronin]

snakes don't have feet.
:p

[couch]

snakes don't have feet.
:p

I slither my way into range. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I slither my way into range. ;)

Perv !

Thing is, look st a snake or a crane ( they have very different fighting styles), if there are two animals LESS liek WC people, it is these tww.
Snakes are pure "one strike one kill" animals.
Cranes are rarely offensive and rarely attack with forward aggressive pressure.

[YungChun]

Helen Rocks!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTrbbzGGnVI&feature=relateduTrbbzGGnVI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpwAZg7OLJ0

[YungChun]

Perv !

Thing is, look st a snake or a crane ( they have very different fighting styles), if there are two animals LESS liek WC people, it is these tww.
Snakes are pure "one strike one kill" animals.
Cranes are rarely offensive and rarely attack with forward aggressive pressure.

Some snakes bite many times, others not.

Some cranes will attack directly..

As I understand it some VT was thought to be snake and crane--I always thought this to be true.. I see both animals but the crane elements are not typical crane, still there are different crane styles..

[Ultimatewingchun]

Helen rocks...

Or you'd like to rock Helen.

Which is it? ;)

[Hendrik]

What is your intention of proposing into this?

Also, Yang's White Crane is the post 1800 white crane. while WCK is related to pre 1800 white crane.


Snake is just an analogy of every small details and join of the whole needs to be paid attention, train, and utilized. It is not snake as snake style. Otherwise, it becomes misleading.


As for Snake power, that just means one has details handling on the movement of every join adaptively. because every join is uses or open up or a part of the training then one be able to generate power when others who dont go that far in details think it is not possible. That is the basis of WCK short Jin.


I have post it out but no one believe it. Not you, not those in SEA who like to debunk the Yik Kam kuen kuit disregard of they dont have understanding. ....etc
Life is strange. Sometimes one needs to go through all the pain, pay all the money, ..... spend 40 years in miserable just to find something right infront of one's eyes. I have gone through that so I know.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=993125&postcount=38



listen to the song,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwbtbfAnI80

the whole situation is just a the lyrics.

...Waiting up in heaven
I was never far from you
Spinning down I felt your every move

I walk alone...


But no one believe it is so closed. thus, no one train in it, thus there is no kungfu. Some rather use CLF or hung gar iron shirt or.....etc and thinking that is more powerful, they dont understand the weakest is exactly the strongest. It is counter intuitive.

Want to know what is silence? just wait and dont think anything. that is silence, you own buddha nature, but how many will believe. that buddha nature never die and no one can beat that buddha nature of yours, but then one rather keep defending the ego which is fading away when one is sleeping or die instead of accept nothing needs to be defend, for the buddhanature cannot be created or destroy.


As a humanbeing, mostly only when one's hope is torn apart and no one can save you, then one sees what is in front of one's eyes.



....Go tell the world I'm still around
I didn't fly, I'm coming down
you are the wind, the only sound

Whisper to my heart
when hope is torn apart
and no one can save you ...


I would like to take this opportunity to tell those Yik Kam's decendent in SEA, it is counter intuitive. thus, that is the beauty --- within the Yin, Yang is there. CLF, Hung Gar, Southern Shaolin....etc cant get one there because it is a different type of technology.

I speak in such not because I am better then you. it is because there is no different between you and me, and the differences is you dont see what I seen yet.



....You don't have to see
What I turned out to be
no one can help you ...

Only you can help yourself.


"...My winter storm
Holding me awake
It's never gone
When I walk alone.."

so enjoy your journey.

[JPinAZ]

Put down the crack pipe dude.


But no one believe it is so closed. thus, no one train in it, thus there is no kungfu. Some rather use CLF or hung gar iron shirt or.....etc and thinking that is more powerful, they dont understand the weakest is exactly the strongest. It is counter intuitive...

..I would like to take this opportunity to tell those Yik Kam's decendent in SEA, it is counter intuitive. thus, that is the beauty --- within the Yin, Yang is there. CLF, Hung Gar, Southern Shaolin....etc cant get one there because it is a different type of technology.


Basically you are saying that only Yik Kam's WCK has the 'real kung fu', and is the only thing that can 'get you there'?!? I bet there's some CLF or Hung gar guys that would love to show you how they dissagree!

Does Southern Shaolin Chi Sim lack the technology too? I bet that's exactly what you were thinking when it put you on your a$$ and you were crying "that's not WC!".... ;)

[Hendrik]

You certainly free to view it any way you like to based on your own logic and personal agenda.

I certainly fully accept you level of perception for that is who you are.





Put down the crack pipe dude.



Basically you are saying that only Yik Kam's WCK has the 'real kung fu', and is the only thing that can 'get you there'?!? I bet there's some CLF or Hung gar guys that would love to show you how they dissagree!

Does Southern Shaolin Chi Sim lack the technology too? I bet that's exactly what you were thinking when it put you on your a$$ and you were crying "that's not WC!".... ;)

[duende]

You certainly free to view it any way you like to based on your own logic and personal agenda.

I certainly fully accept you level of perception for that is who you are.

And the best advice begins at home.



So when your personal agenda causes you to repeatedly to write such things as this...



I would like to take this opportunity to tell those Yik Kam's decendent in SEA, it is counter intuitive. thus, that is the beauty --- within the Yin, Yang is there. CLF, Hung Gar, Southern Shaolin....etc cant get one there because it is a different type of technology.


My logic dictates that if Yik Kam's decendent wasn't capable of dealing with my Sihing's John Murphy's energy upon first engagement.

Then Yik Kam's decendent's needs different type of technology.

One that works!

[Hendrik]

This too I completely accept with love. You are free to think as you like.




And the best advice begins at home.



So when your personal agenda causes you to repeatedly to write such things as this...



My logic dictates that if Yik Kam's decendent wasn't capable of dealing with my Sihing's John Murphy's energy upon first engagement.

Then Yik Kam's decendent's needs different type of technology.

One that works!

[kung fu fighter]

I have post it out but no one believe it. Not you, not those in SEA who like to debunk the Yik Kam kuen kuit disregard of they dont have understanding. ....etc

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I understand your snake technology to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA


What is your intention of proposing into this?

No intention I just thought others on here would find it an interesting read


斯是上乘法,通關開竅有奇功.

Commentary: This SLT is an advance set which serve the purpose of open up the key nodes/gates and penetrate the path ways

So basically your 4 key spinal exercises of how to unlock the snake are just excercises of how to the open the energy gates of the body?

so your snake energy is no different than the energy developed in yi quan or standing stake in any of the internal arts ?


Why horizontal power? In order to have a complete basic power generation; There are two type of fundamental power which are needed, these two basic elements are the vertical power and the horizontal power. From the combination of the two basic elements the six directional force vectors are composed.

Can you discribe what the horizontal power is? Is horizontal power and spinal torque power the same thing?

How is horizontal power applied?


The movement is described as how snake slide and pupa move.

Is your spine the snake and the rest of your body the pupa

[Hendrik]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is what I understand your snake technology to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA

What you see here is the result. It is not a technology.

different technology can reach this point if the technology has the components and depth. However, not all technology can goes that far even if one spend a life time on it.

There is no only one path to the summit. however, one must know the path can actually lead to the summit and know how to take the path.


So how to do what is in the clip? simple when one could dissolve one's own force vector and other feel like totally lost its balance and needs to pull back. as for how to dissolve one's own force vector that rely on if one's technology can get one there.




So basically your 4 key spinal exercises of how to unlock the snake are just excercises of how to the open the energy gates of the body?


It doesnt have to be 4 it doesnt have to be 6 it can be anything. However, the Yik Kam lineage sum up everything into 4 cycle in the closing salutation of SLT.

as it said,

揎蓋挑疊常要用 劍指膀肘逞英雄

Huen Kaam Tiu Taap always needed,
Sword fingers wing elbow here I present to the hero.



To open or unlock,
That involve an idea/philosophy/concept since every technology has to start with an idea, and basic elements how to implement the idea in the realm of body, mind, breathing, and Qi. Body is energy, mind is energy, breathing is energy, qi is energy.

and the subtle part is the sequence of how to deal with the realm of body, mind.. breathing direct or indirectly.

Until one has a proper basic 99% of one cant speculate because it is an experience based not a speculation thinking based issue.




so your snake energy is no different than the energy developed in yi quan or standing stake in any of the internal arts ?

Energy is Energy, there is no different with your energy or mine energy. The different is you might be able to use energy in a certain way I dont know. or use in a certain way better then me.

But standing there itself will not get one there, also mimic the taichi reel silk will not get one there because it involve technics of manipulation to get one resonance in a state which I called orbiting. and orbiting in that proper track to lead one to get to even high energy orbiting state....etc.

Thus, one can stand fo 100000 years, if one doesnt know what one intent to develop , one will not get there.

That is very different then to cultivate silence, as I said, just let go the mind and silence it there. One can attain the silence, but if one would like to use one's computer one still needs that technics of operating the computer.

Certainly, one needs to know the silence because it is the based of everything/ energy. however, one needs to know different type of energy and how to resonance in that state....etc. similar to one needs to know how to make different tune even if one knows silence is the based of all music.


similarly, one could practice a life time of Tan bong fok ...etc but doesnt know WingChun moves has no block. similar to snake slide, it doesnt walk,




Can you discribe what the horizontal power is? Is horizontal power and spinal torque power the same thing?


Horizontal power is the definition of force issue out horizontally.
Spinal torgue power is about spinal. spinal must not use power at all. and thus there is no spinal torque power could be used. As it said, the spinal has hundreds of join similar to boneless, it must not be force to do a certain things.




How is horizontal power applied?


Same with how one applied vertical power with sun punch. but using whip arm or elbow or other tools....





Is your spine the snake and the rest of your body the pupa


Snake slide pupal move means every joins is doing snake slide and pupal disregards of any place in the body.

It also means nothing is force out directly. that is the boomerang effect of WCK. and it is actually a butterfly effect similar to small vibration will resonance or snowball into something drastic where. Nothing direct, everything is retrograte and recursive it is all about resonance.


thus, WCK might look direct but that is just an appearance. the engine is spiral and resonance in nature. thus, that is the engine to power the Come accept, Goes return...
no block because it is about resonance and keep increasing the momentum, it just doesnt stop and restart.

Thus, it is not Hung Gar iron wire, it is not Southern Shaolin, it is not white crane, it is not CLF. those are different technology.

[Hendrik]

For anyone who is seriously intend to dig deep into the root of WCK.

Emei 12 zhuang's kuen kuit. Some one wants to translate these and let everyone sees what is this "snake" means and compare with WCK? see how close or how far...




Big Picture description:


象天则地，圆空法生，大小开合，唯妙于心。

如如不动，是真阴阳，宝斯不动，发用乃常。

唯气与脉，不动动生，意动神到，开合降升。

降则嘿嘿，升则嘶嘶，开合一如，结丹在兹。

静如秋月，动若飙风，彬彬克敌，分寸之中。

轻若鸿毛，重逾泰山，用中无形，体用一焉。





Application description :

背锁源力揉，擒拿化封闭，

粑粘联钩搭，套托随绷挤，进步用弓箭，合机诱伺敌。

虎口掌托天，袖底钩截地，两掌运三味，五指藏太极，

粑刁手腕断，绷挤骨胁碎。大开拿阴肘，掉身背挤敌，

粑粘寻掌腕，揉套审彼力，勿当冲马劲，横锁刁牛蹩，

封闭借来法，点穴最上智，借以子之矛，还攻子之弊。

我常自在静，雷发丹田气，大开诱来攻，利我居主位，



Siu (as in Siu Lien Tau) Description:



小字与大字，诀里俱藏庄，反正相辅用，参修莫稍忘。

天地十二式，苦练重小字，凡此用上诀，万端出小处。

地磐脚进退，上三手动止，中三俯仰侧，无须悟彻此。

小庄动静参，气脉表里间，外用以降魔，敌伤不觉焉。

[JPinAZ]

You certainly free to view it any way you like to based on your own logic and personal agenda.

Nice try, but I'm only repying to words YOU used. If I have it wrong, then what did you mean when you said

"But no one believe it is so closed. thus, no one train in it, thus there is no kungfu. Some rather use CLF or hung gar iron shirt or.....etc and thinking that is more powerful, they dont understand the weakest is exactly the strongest. It is counter intuitive..."

and

"..I would like to take this opportunity to tell those Yik Kam's decendent in SEA, it is counter intuitive. thus, that is the beauty --- within the Yin, Yang is there. CLF, Hung Gar, Southern Shaolin....etc cant get one there because it is a different type of technology."

Sounds like you are saying only Yik Kam knows the way to the top of the mountain... To me, this sounds very much like an agenda. And quite insulting too.

[Hendrik]

Again,

I accept however whatever you like to think based on you logic. Because that is your way of viewing the world.


I am not interested and not expect you to be anything else other then you.
Nor I interested in you view.
Thus,
This would be the last time I reply to you.




Nice try, but I'm only repying to words YOU used. If I have it wrong, then what did you mean when you said

"But no one believe it is so closed. thus, no one train in it, thus there is no kungfu. Some rather use CLF or hung gar iron shirt or.....etc and thinking that is more powerful, they dont understand the weakest is exactly the strongest. It is counter intuitive..."

and

"..I would like to take this opportunity to tell those Yik Kam's decendent in SEA, it is counter intuitive. thus, that is the beauty --- within the Yin, Yang is there. CLF, Hung Gar, Southern Shaolin....etc cant get one there because it is a different type of technology."

Sounds like you are saying only Yik Kam knows the way to the top of the mountain... To me, this sounds very much like an agenda. And quite insulting too.

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik, thank you for the explanations


What you see here is the result. It is not a technology. .

So what's the components and path in your technology?


What does it feel like when one dissolve's one's own force vector?


So the 4 cycle in the closing salutation of the Yik kam's SLT set are Huen, Kaam, Tiu, Taap?

Are these 4 cycles also at the end of Ku Choi Wah, Y Wu, and Cheong Wai Por SLT sets?



What are the technics of manipulation that you use to get into resonance state or orbiting state?


Is Horizontal power present when initiating juen ma from the kua?

[Hendrik]

So what's the components and path in your technology?

there is nothing fix.



What does it feel like when one dissolve's one's own force vector?


Let go and let God. silence.
this is the silence of the body; non reactive.




So the 4 cycle in the closing salutation of the Yik kam's SLT set are Huen, Kaam, Tiu, Taap?

This is a part of it.
and not everyone do it in a WCK way. even within the Cho family art, today, Some does it in a CLF way...etc. Thus, that become a CLF.

so, even if one learn the shape one will not be able to pin point it if one dont get into the force vectors and above level. one needs to probe into the power generation realm and not stuck at the shape or physical level, there one sees different signatures.

For those who read energy signature, Emei + White crane = SLT is clear and solid. Certainly, those who knows only physical find all the physical form is the same.

IE: YJKYM + Tan SAu in SLT, YJKYM +Tan Sau in Hung gar iron wire, are they the same?
sure physically appearance.

Energy signature? NOPE. totally different pattern types.

SLT has no block but boomerang and retrograte snow balling , SLT's YJKYM + Tan sau is operate like a retrograde sickle with its resonance power generator and retrograding support structure.

As for Hung gar? their characteristics is in the 12 Kiu sau...etc. check it out.


one is sickling all the way, one is kiu sau all the way.
and see for yourself.





Are these 4 cycles also at the end of Ku Choi Wah, Y Wu, and Cheong Wai Por SLT sets?

I Let them answer it themselve.





What are the technics of manipulation that you use to get into resonance state or orbiting state?

One doesnt need technics to get into resonance. because Let Go Let God is what it needed. But then different people has different things one cant let go. Thus, different technics are needed to get one there and after that one no longer needs it when one has truely letting go. otherwise it becomes a burden. That is where one needs a sifu who knows how to lead one.

For example, singing. to learn how to sing one just sing, but then only when one doesnt know or need to improve the use of lower abs one brought the issue up. Otherwise, brought up the issue of lower abs only cause problem to those who has naturally use lower abs.








Is Horizontal power present when initiating juen ma from the kua?


At every instant and every physical posture there is horizontal power otherwise the movement will go extreme and imbalance. (it cant retrograde or resonance but short gun burst to single direction type. ) it is just what is the amount of the horizontal force within the total force vectors.

Kua is just a part of the elements paying too much attention, thinking that is the core of universe is actually a kiss of death. Those are begining stuffs. the ultimate is the intention move the force vectors move, the physical body doesnt even have much visible movement....etc.


Thus it says,

静如秋月，动若飙风，彬彬克敌，分寸之中。

Silence as the quite autum's moon, active similar to tronado, gently subdue the opponent, it is a matter within inches of movement handling. (it is the force vectors one playing with instead of physical move.)


轻若鸿毛，重逾泰山，用中无形，体用一焉。

Light as feather, heavy as the mountain, within the application there is no physical visibility, application and body is non dual.



if Your mind is stuck at physical posture. That needs to transcent a level up to the force vectors level otherwise you will no be able to understand what is going on.


in this modern era,
most people doing it via the way of collecting DVD or youtube or seminal or learning some sets....etc.

just my experience, at one point i am practicing a certain basic internal stuffs, I took me five years and atleast 1.5hours nonstop everyday to just have a grasp on the very basic handling. That is how long it could takes sometime.


Well, IMHO, that doesnt work for advance stuffs which is not up for speculation.
One needs to Baisi with a good teacher and it is a life long journey.

[TenTigers]

Hendrick, are you saying,"join," or "joint?"
what is a retrograde sickle?

"Some call it a slingblade, I call it a Kaiser blade..."

how can you speak on the iron wire form when you don't know it?
How can you speak on 12 bridges when you don't know what they mean?
Books? Articles? Youtube?

You cannot know the taste of food simply by reading a cookbook.

[Hendrik]

Hendrick, are you saying,"join," or "joint?"
what is a retrograde sickle?

Joint.

Sickle in retrograde motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle

it retrograde so it cuts both side in a retrograde motion.

As it says, WCK using Oi-lim sau ad Noi-lim Sau as sickle that cut both side moving forward of retrograde backward.





how can you speak on the iron wire form when you don't know it?





I dont practice Iron wire;

but anyone who is advance enough in the internal art training can read its energy signature from :

1, the others practitioners training,
2, its classical writing, and or
3, testing out its operation according to its classical writing using one's own body, mind, breathing as a emulator or simulator tool to gain insigh; to know what it cultivate an how it is applied.






One of the uniqueness characteristics of SLT which it inherit from its mother art the Emei 12 Zhuang is

苦练重小字，凡此用上诀，万端出小处。

Training diligently focus in the details, use this details as the tool for in depth, the key of all thousand phenomenons source from details.


Train in SLT is suppose to have details penetration ability . One needs to be able to emulate and read what one faces. That is the beauty of practice SLT. Thus, it is called the core of detail training = SLT. Thus, the SLT practitioner will develop details penetration as a second nature.



In addition, I have plenty of Hung gar brothers who I could ask for advise, Like GM Robert Chu

Not to mention,
my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy who knows both WCK and iron wire.

And he told me at point blank ---- going Iron wire is the wrong path; when a Hung gar master who is a student of my late sifu trying to evolve his SLT set with Hung gar/Iron Wire element.










How can you speak on 12 bridges when you don't know what they mean?
Books? Articles? Youtube?


Go ahead test drive both SLT and Iron wire,

Investigate
them from different angles,
via body motion type, breathing method, mind set, and force vector generation.

see for yourself what is what. Let your body, mind, breathing, vector force tell the story.


It is nothing about good or bad, superior or inferior, it is all about knowing what one is practicing and getting the result from the practice.







You cannot know the taste of food simply by reading a cookbook.

That is forsure. I am totally 100% agree with you.

and
one doesnt have to be a cook to taste food.

it is even more simple to go to the best cook; ask him to tell one what is the different between the chinese noddle and the italian spegeti, just relax and listen and learn, instead of getting 1000000 junior training cook to argue everything and wasting time, they dont know anyway.

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,
How exactly would you discribe what the horizontal force is within the total force vectors?

Was the 4 key excercises that you taught Jim Roselando to open the snake technology the Huen, Kaam, Tiu, Taap?

[Hendrik]

How exactly would you discribe what the horizontal force is within the total force vectors?

all motion has different force vectors components.




Was the 4 key excercises that you taught Jim Roselando to open the snake technology the Huen, Kaam, Tiu, Taap?




Jim flies from Boston to see me sincerely with Faith. and after that comes almost every year. He doesnt have to pay a cent and I know he could grow the art. It is not very thing for a buck deal. We dont sell art. We passed art to next generation.

Thus,

As the Western tradition,
It is not professional to tell you what I teach Jim.

As the oriental tradition,
It is also it is our privacy on what I teach him or transmitting to him. I leave it up to him to reveal what he has learn.

[kung fu fighter]

all motion has different force vectors components./QUOTE]

So in essence the 6 directional force vectors include the horizontal as well as the vertical like a sphere?

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1012484]It is not professional to tell you what I teach Jim.

As the oriental tradition, It is also it is our privacy on what I teach him or transmitting to him. I leave it up to him to reveal what he has learn.

Fair enough, perhaps you can share a little more details on the 4 cycle of Huen, Kaam, Tiu, Taap, in regards to their relationship to your snake technology?

[Hendrik]

So in essence the 6 directional force vectors include the horizontal as well as the vertical like a sphere?

correct.

Thus, even the posture must not be in a "broken arrow " state. It is called broken arrow because it is similar to a imbalance shoot out arrow which is strong in a particular direction but weak in all other direction. That makes the art very unstable and full of weakness.





, perhaps you can share a little more details on the 4 cycle of Huen, Kaam, Tiu, Taap, in regards to their relationship to your snake technology?

In the most simplistic view, it is just circle within circle within circle, or it is just sphere within sphere within sphere. or tiny gear within smaller gear within larger gear with life in every level of gear. and ofcause there are medirians stuffs involve as in

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=993125&postcount=38

[kung fu fighter]

In the most simplistic view, it is just circle within circle within circle, or it is just sphere within sphere within sphere. or tiny gear within smaller gear within larger gear with life in every level of gear. and ofcause there are medirians stuffs involve as in

Thanks Hendrik, this is an excellent explanation! It's nice to see you're opening up with more detailed explanations. It atleast gives people a chance to understand your point of view, even if they are not able to do it at their level yet. I find It very refreshing!

I am curious, why did you came up with the name snake technology for the wing chun wholesome power?

[LoneTiger108]

One of the uniqueness characteristics of SLT which it inherit from its mother art the Emei 12 Zhuang is

苦练重小字，凡此用上诀，万端出小处。

Training diligently focus in the details, use this details as the tool for in depth, the key of all thousand phenomenons source from details.


Train in SLT is suppose to have details penetration ability . One needs to be able to emulate and read what one faces. That is the beauty of practice SLT. Thus, it is called the core of detail training = SLT. Thus, the SLT practitioner will develop details penetration as a second nature.

As much as this interests me Hendrik, and thanks for sharing the other lines too, I still really do not understand where the Emei 12 Zhuang originates, can you clear this up for me? What is Emei in Cantonese?

And what makes you think this is the origin of SLT?

[CFT]

Spencer, in Cantonese it is "Ngor Mei" (or Or-Mei in modern "lazy sounds").

峨眉

峨: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%AEo
眉: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%AC%DC

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, in Cantonese it is "Ngor Mei" (or Or-Mei in modern "lazy sounds").

峨眉

峨: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%AEo
眉: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%AC%DC

That's what I thought (kind of!)

Any relation to Bak Mei??!

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik, this is an excellent explanation! It's nice to see you're opening up with more detailed explanations. It atleast gives people a chance to understand your point of view, even if they are not able to do it at their level yet. I find It very refreshing!

I am curious, why did you came up with the name snake technology for the wing chun wholesome power?


You are welcome. I just has to take time for one to understand what I am presenting because there are layers and layers of information and one needs to pear through them.

According to the WCK ancestor, WCK is a fusion of "Crane and Snake". We know the crane is from Fujian White Crane, and we now know the snake is from Emei. So, i just follow what the ancestors said, called the part of technology as it is.

[Hendrik]

As much as this interests me Hendrik, and thanks for sharing the other lines too, I still really do not understand where the Emei 12 Zhuang originates, can you clear this up for me? What is Emei in Cantonese?

And what makes you think this is the origin of SLT?

This subject has been posted in this forum for past decade. Please use the search engine to search.

[CFT]

That's what I thought (kind of!)

Any relation to Bak Mei??!Not as far as I'm aware. Emei is a regional (even mountain specific maybe) grouping. Bak Mei is attributed to one person (BM himself), but I think he as as elusive as Ng Mui herself.

[LoneTiger108]

This subject has been posted in this forum for past decade. Please use the search engine to search.

I tried to trawl through all the references but was hoping you may be able to give me a summary or recommend which post to read!! There are too many!! :(


Emei is a regional (even mountain specific maybe) grouping. Bak Mei is attributed to one person (BM himself), but I think he as as elusive as Ng Mui herself.

I agree. It all sounds a bit eccentric to be honest, but I love research (as Hendrik knows) and as this subject came up again I thought I would ask for more clarification.

Snake and Crane have definitely influenced Wing Chun, but how much and by whom? I don't think anyone can say...

[Hendrik]

I tried to trawl through all the references but was hoping you may be able to give me a summary or recommend which post to read!! There are too many!! :(





I have go through it so many time that I am tired of doing it. Sorry.

[TenTigers]

Quote:
Hendrick, are you saying,"join," or "joint?"
what is a retrograde sickle?

Joint.

okay, got it. (now I have to read the entire thing again..(sigh)

Sickle in retrograde motion.

ah, ok. I thought you were trying to say cyclical



how can you speak on the iron wire form when you don't know it?





I dont practice Iron wire;
Exactly

but anyone who is advance enough in the internal art training can read its energy signature from :

1, the others practitioners training,
2, its classical writing, and or
3, testing out its operation according to its classical writing using one's own body, mind, breathing as a emulator or simulator tool to gain insigh; to know what it cultivate an how it is applied.

Not true. You cannot get anything by watching, or reading, or testing something you have not experienced first hand.
All the writings on the wire form are simply a vain attempt to put into words the qualities of energies. At best, it's only a guideline for beginners.


These qualities are only learned through direct transmission, hands-on from teacher to student.



in addition, I have plenty of Hung gar brothers who I could ask for advise, Like GM Robert Chu

Not to mention,
my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy who knows both WCK and iron wire.

And he told me at point blank ---- going Iron wire is the wrong path; when a Hung gar master who is a student of my late sifu trying to evolve his SLT set with Hung gar/Iron Wire element.

If you are referring to the dynamic tension aspects of the iron wire set, then I wholeheartedly agree with you there. That would be the completely wrong path.

I think many people do not realize that there are many layers to the practice of the Wire form, and it can be practiced on many levels. To do it simply as a dynamic tension set, and think you will understand it, is pure folly.

Ever wonder why there are so many books out on Tai-Chi? Because there are so many levels to understanding this art, and each person's experience is different.
As it stands now, there are only a few writings on Tiet Sien Kuen. The more people practice it, the more writings there will be..and the more dissagreements!LOL
Alas, the problem is that there are too many chiefs and not enough braves in Hung-Ga. Myself included. Way too many people out there claiming to be Sifus, where all they have is the skin and hair. Unfortunately, these are the guys who write the articles....

[TenTigers]

Bottom line: you are comparing apples and oranges. Tiet Sien Kuen is nothing like SLT. Not really a great discovery there. Two completely different forms designed to teach two completely different things. Tiet Sien Kuen isn't the same as Sam Bo Ging either. That, however does not mean that your version of WCK has anything over on any other system.

Hendrick, you put out alot of great information. You get into trouble when you start to mention and draw comparisons to techniques and styles you have not experienced first hand.
Many of us (myself included) respect you for your knowledge on internal aspects of WCK.

[Hendrik]

Bottom line: you are comparing apples and oranges. Tiet Sien Kuen is nothing like SLT. Not really a great discovery there. Two completely different forms designed to teach two completely different things. Tiet Sien Kuen isn't the same as Sam Bo Ging either. That, however does not mean that your version of WCK has anything over on any other system.

Hendrick, you put out alot of great information. You get into trouble when you start to mention and draw comparisons to techniques and styles you have not experienced first hand.
Many of us (myself included) respect you for your knowledge on internal aspects of WCK.


1, So, what is the problem?

This is WCK forum and why is I am presenting one must not do SLT as Hung Gar Iron wire a problem for you?



2, You can believe what you want and defending what you want. I totally accept that and allow that.



3, Speaking of precise technology, that is independent of Hendrik or anyone's experience,

By Technology fact,

The fact is Iron Wire doesnt manifest Six Directional force because it is a different type of technology.

and also, Iron Wire doesnt lead the flow of the Zhen Qi as in Emei 12 Zhuang or Wu taiji.

Where SLT has both.


So, what happen with IRon Wire in the realm of Qi cultivation and Force vectors generation and handling?



As I mention above, one needs to go beyond physical layer to see the signature or different layers. and so I invite you to go beyond the physical layer to see what is SLT and what is IRon wire.

Similar to a food, if it got vitamin A then it got vitamin A, got nothing to do with which doctor said what.

[Hendrik]

Ever wonder why there are so many books out on Tai-Chi? Because there are so many levels to understanding this art, and each person's experience is different.



I dont buy the reasoning above totally.

a Taichi no matter how many practice it will not become Shao Lin.

When a Taichi evolve into Shao lin, it cant be call Taichi anymore.

when a junior do Taichi that is not even taichi yet. There are standard which needs to be attained. and there are things the set cant attain. IE a taiji set will not yield a Shao Lin hard style power.




Also, who create Tiet Sien Kuen or Iron wire set? look at the person who create it and look at his kungfu style. that is what determine what it is. it is not up for anyone's intepretation. one sure can improve it however that is no longer what it is.

[TenTigers]

what puzzles me is why people solely look at Tiet Sien Kuen when speaking of the short bridges and energy development? A better example in my opinion, would be the oepning sections of FHSYK. This shows the short bridge hands of the Snake and Crane. (this also depends on who is playing the form and how he is playing it. There are as many versions of FHSYK as there are SLT. But how many do SLT the way you do it?)
As far as the development of TSK? Nobody knows for sure. WFH learned form Lam Fook Sing who learned from Leung Guan. Some say Leung Guan learned from the Red Eyebrow Monk. Some also say that Sam Dart was the Red Eyebrow Monk.

I'm not sure where you are going with the, "Tai Chi cannot evolve into Shaolin?"
then again, didn't Gen. Jiang study at Shaolin? Isn't he credited with teaching the Chen village? That would mean, Tai-Chi IS Shaolin! LOL
ok, depends on which version you go by. Some people believe Chang Seng-Feng created it in Wudan.....

[Hendrik]

IMHO, Seriously, in the reality


1, if one cant go beyond the physical shape or form it is a dead trap for getting stuck, and confusion of look a like.



2, if one keep speculate myth and legend and his-story and he says she says without getting to the core elements of the technology; then, there is not much technology but lots of says which will never produce anything advance.


3, every art if it is legitimate has a force vectors signature. The taiji cultivation is very different from the Shao Lin cultivation. when one cant attain that signature then one is no longer know that art, even one could spend a life time practice the form or set.

[Hendrik]

彬彬克敌，分寸之中

Gentle-ly defeat the opponent, in a matter of within an inch.



IMHO, in a matter of within an inch is talking about contact point.
Meaning, at the contact point of two physical object different force vectors were inject into the motion system if one look at two person's action as a motion system.

Thus, it is not about moving the hand or leg within an inch to defeat the opponent. it is at the contact point the one who could manual the force vectors in different ways defeat the others. It plays with force vectors instead of different physical technics which needs feet to manual.

[duende]

Sooner or later... Hendrik always self destructs. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

The IW is an "custom" set, hence there are many variations.
Depending on what one is wanting to get out of the IW, it is done accordingly.
The sequence and moves are, to an extent, irrelevant, as long as they are balanced.
It can be a complete dynamic tension set to build strength, it can be done in a "taiji" mode to build relaxation and cultivate "chi", it can blend both ala Chen Taiji, or it can be done in an explosive method.
Rik is right about the Tiger and crane set beginning sequence and SLT.

Fact is, ANY forms is done according to what ones to get out of it at that point in time, I'd be more concerned about those that do ANY form the same way all the time, like mimicking robots.

[t_niehoff]

Fact is, ANY forms is done according to what ones to get out of it at that point in time, I'd be more concerned about those that do ANY form the same way all the time, like mimicking robots.

Forms (linked sets) might have some limited usefulness as a "textbook" to a particular art or for developing basic level coordination, but you can't develop mechanics or attributes to any significant degree by practicing movements unrealistically in the air.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms (linked sets) might have some limited usefulness as a "textbook" to a particular art or for developing basic level coordination, but you can't develop mechanics or attributes to any significant degree by practicing movements unrealistically in the air.

Well...I think that one probably CAN, but I don't know of many that do.
I mean, a form is NOT one, long sequence of moves, it is a combination of different sequences.
The realistic element is the issue, you can't really "fight the air" to learn to fight, but you can fight the air AFTER you have learned to fight.

[t_niehoff]

Well...I think that one probably CAN, but I don't know of many that do.
I mean, a form is NOT one, long sequence of moves, it is a combination of different sequences.
The realistic element is the issue, you can't really "fight the air" to learn to fight, but you can fight the air AFTER you have learned to fight.

I don't doubt that "shadow boxing", where you spar an imaginary opponent, is useful training, and that your ability to shadow box will correspond to your experience sparring (after you have learned to fight).

But FIXED forms?

[Hendrik]

The IW is an "custom" set, hence there are many variations.
Depending on what one is wanting to get out of the IW, it is done accordingly.
The sequence and moves are, to an extent, irrelevant, as long as they are balanced.
It can be a complete dynamic tension set to build strength, it can be done in a "taiji" mode to build relaxation and cultivate "chi", it can blend both ala Chen Taiji, or it can be done in an explosive method.
Rik is right about the Tiger and crane set beginning sequence and SLT.

Fact is, ANY forms is done according to what ones to get out of it at that point in time, I'd be more concerned about those that do ANY form the same way all the time, like mimicking robots.


This view is a complete misleading on TCMA.

There is no such thing as custom set. A set has its purpose and characteristics.

It is also extremely misleading to think doing things in a taiji mode to build relaxation and cultivate chi. or blend both ala chen taiji or done in complete dynamic tension. So, define what is Iron Wire set for? There is no Such thing as as you like it set.







Who in the history up to today has achieved Taji cultivation of open up Ren and Du with Iron Wire practice?


Who in the history up to today has attain the Yiquan six directional force power generation with Iron Wire practice?

IN fact, based on the structure of Iron Wire, the above two cannot be done.

And dont believe me, just go find a person any person or master who could attain the above two elements with practicing Iron wire set. instead of argue and misleading the world on " oh, I have it too, I can do that too."

99% of those doing it slowly and relax wishing it to becomes internal stuffs is a fantasy. and infact cant be done. look at the statistic. look at the facts.





This is a deadly trap for TCMA coming to the west those who adapted this view is just cheating oneself. It simply cannot be done but lots of lips service. Some do that when they couldnt even handle the basic, and taking this so called relaxing internal path to cheat themself and others to defend their own ego. and the fact is it never get conclusive. the training goes no where even after 10000 years.

I have always asked people here, so show me how you evoke your Zhen Qi. if one cant then one's so called Taiji mimic-ing practice is just a dance. Yes a dance as it is a dance. It will not get one into internal. but a relaxation game no more then slow dancing.

[LoneTiger108]

I have always asked people here, so show me how you evoke your Zhen Qi. if one cant then one's so called Taiji mimic-ing practice is just a dance. Yes a dance as it is a dance. It will not get one into internal. but a relaxation game no more then slow dancing.

Considering the above, what you're also saying is that if you have not had this tuition (from yourself?) then the SLT practise is useless.

Is there no other way to benefit or cultivate your qi other than the methods you have proposed? :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

This view is a complete misleading on TCMA.

There is no such thing as custom set. A set has its purpose and characteristics.

It is also extremely misleading to think doing things in a taiji mode to build relaxation and cultivate chi. or blend both ala chen taiji or done in complete dynamic tension. So, define what is Iron Wire set for? There is no Such thing as as you like it set.







Dude, I don't think you understood anything I wrote.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't doubt that "shadow boxing", where you spar an imaginary opponent, is useful training, and that your ability to shadow box will correspond to your experience sparring (after you have learned to fight).

But FIXED forms?

See, now you are getting into an area and debate as old as the hills on grannys chest, and twice as dusty.

[Ultimatewingchun]

True.

And for me, the answer is to never stop doing the forms, but to do them less-and-less as time goes on - and shadow box more.

That is, when a sparring partner is not available...

or when you're alone and some new idea about something comes into your head (or something you've seen someone else do lights a match in your head)...

then shadow boxing can be very helpful.

[Hendrik]

Is there no other way to benefit or cultivate your qi other than the methods you have proposed? :confused:


I have shared a method within the TCMA IMA, there are lots of different methods not only limited to what I shared. However, all the method must satisfied key elements in TCMA IMA otherwise it doesnt work well or completely stuck.

IE. one cant make believe one drive a four wheel drive car when in fact one is driving a two wheel drive car.

If one doesnt know about the differences between a two wheel drive and four wheel drive; thinking driving a two wheel drive with the low gear is the same with driving a four wheel drive; then one is fantasying.

To build a four wheel drive, there are many ways. however, it is not same with building the two wheel drive way.


If one substitude IMA as four wheel drive and External art as two wheel drive in the example above ; one cant' just relax and practice something slowly to make it Qi cultivaton...etc. it is not design for that purpose.

One got to know what is the set is design for and design with,

IE a four wheel drive or a two wheel drive.

expecting to get any result without knowing what one is driving or what is what and what is it for is just a mesh.

Too bad some take pride on this type of mesh, they think this type of mesh up is their intepretation or the WAY....the Dao. That is a totally misleading because they will never get any advance stuff out it. but mostly inconclusive and stuck.

IE: is your SLT internal art? yes. can you use it face mma figther? nope. I am going to learn boxing to face mma figther. So what is the point of that internal art? what does it do? can you heal your body with it? or it contribute nothing but empty ego stroking.




A TCMA set is like a vehicle,
one needs to know what is it and how is it. It is very specific.
IE
a Bus is not a sport car. a frond wheel drive is not a back wheel drive, a mid engine car is not a front engine car. thus a BMW is not a Civic. A Prius is not a Boxter. it is not just naming there are uniqueness which is different.

[Hendrik]

Dude, I don't think you understood anything I wrote.



I totally understood what you wrote and knowing that path is a totally mess.


But then I totally accept anyone to take those path because it is none of my business if one love to fantasy.

[wtxs]

I feel like Rip van Winkle just woke up from an thousand years snooze, I swear this thread is about the possible WC connection to the crane/snake. For sure that I and many other would rather like to hear more about it. ;);)

[TenTigers]

Hendrick-how does your ch'i-gung affect sexual performance? You've no doubt heard of the Pa Kua master who used to frequent a brothel and satisfy every woman in there, without expelling his jing.
So..my gf, after an evening of um, practice...told me, "That's it! No more of your Ch'i-Gung! You're killing me!"
(ahem..) ah, yep...so..can your 12 Zhangs do that? :D

[LoneTiger108]

I feel like Rip van Winkle just woke up from an thousand years snooze, I swear this thread is about the possible WC connection to the crane/snake. For sure that I and many other would rather like to hear more about it. ;);)

;) For sure there is a connection of snake and crane to wing chun, I think it's establishing the mechanics behind it that has steered the thread.

From what I gather so far, the building process to include the snake alone requires you to know from the beginning what you're building. A four wheeled drive vehicle has become the comparison to our humble human frame.

The crane hasn't really been talked about much, and feels left out.

Anyways, I have to agree that the qi (chi/hei) ignition and cultivation plays a very important role in the wing chun students development. From the beginning and perpetually thereafter! :D

How so?

Well, that's all for debate imo as everyone must have something better to offer than this :eek:


Hendrick-how does your ch'i-gung affect sexual performance?

[chusauli]

Hendrick-how does your ch'i-gung affect sexual performance? You've no doubt heard of the Pa Kua master who used to frequent a brothel and satisfy every woman in there, without expelling his jing.
So..my gf, after an evening of um, practice...told me, "That's it! No more of your Ch'i-Gung! You're killing me!"
(ahem..) ah, yep...so..can your 12 Zhangs do that? :D

Bah Rik!

You seem to forget that we are Wing Chun men - a translation for that is "in Praise of Sex"!

You Hung Ga dudes also forget we are Hung men, too! (Pun intended)

LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I totally understood what you wrote and knowing that path is a totally mess.


But then I totally accept anyone to take those path because it is none of my business if one love to fantasy.

Like I said, you didn't understand a word I wrote. but what else is new with someone that lives in their own little world?

[goju]

See, now you are getting into an area and debate as old as the hills on grannys chest, and twice as dusty.

lololollol:D:D:D:D

[Hendrik]

Like I said, you didn't understand a word I wrote. but what else is new with someone that lives in their own little world?

it is a technical discussion, there is no point to trying to make personal attack.

[JPinAZ]

it is a technical discussion, there is no point to trying to make personal attack.

Maybe you should follow your own advice


I totally understood what you wrote and knowing that path is a totally mess.

But then I totally accept anyone to take those path because it is none of my business if one love to fantasy.

[TenTigers]

ok, back on track boyz.
Hendrick, could you get into the snake and crane aspects of WCK. How do you see the snake manifest? How do you see the crane?
Also, could you provide a bit more history? Like the past generations back (if possible) to the founder?

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

Does this gentle man have the result of the snake technology?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4hOuO3XoO4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RtaTablXss&feature=related[/QUOTE]

[wtxs]

Hendrik,

Does this gentle man have the result of the snake technology?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4hOuO3XoO4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RtaTablXss&feature=related[/QUOTE]

ROFLOL You have an distinct sense of humor, or is it sarcasm? :p

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Does this gentle man have the result of the snake technology?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4hOuO3XoO4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RtaTablXss&feature=related[/QUOTE]


for me,
These are show business because I dont see the other elements which are needed to make things happen.

[Hendrik]

An old song for those who knows cantonese on this fujian white crane fused and emei snake hybrid and WCK root topic.


Present to the WCK ancestors in the Red boat for your ideas and revolution for your dream.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDQWfJIrvBI&feature=related

人皆尋夢，夢裡不分西東，
片刻春風得意，未知景物矇矓。

人生如夢，夢裡輾轉吉凶，
尋樂不堪苦困，未識苦與樂同。

天造之才，皆有其用，
振翅高飛，無須在夢中。

南柯長夢，夢去不知所蹤，
醉翁他朝醒覺，是否跨鳳乘龍。

何必尋夢，夢裡甘苦皆空，
勸君珍惜此際，自當欣慰無窮。

何必尋夢。