Could and Should the Mook Jong be Updated?

[HumbleWCGuy]

In WC the things that the Mj provides are certainly important. In the absence of a training partners, it might be a good option.

Although, I think that random MJ-like training apparatus can be rigged up that have a more realistic feel. For example my buddy padded a 4x4 post and lashed a dowel rod to it with some extra airline tubing from an aquarium. I liked the springiness of the arm when practicing various WC movements like tan, gum, and jut. The length of the arm allowed us to practice head movement. Maybe MJ might be dated, but the general idea of a big wooden thing to practice your WC on isn't completely ridiculous.

Thoughts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've used the spring loaded arms and the ridgid ones and what I have found is that the ridgid arms "force" you to move and angle and use footwork more then the spring ones.
Since the springs have give, we end up moving the arm into position instead of moving ourselves.
I think that a ridgid spring mounted head would be cool or a hard "anatomically correct" body would be better.
I am not a fan of putting it on wheels/casters, but I do like it when it "moves" with my strikes and it should be well weighted.

[YungChun]

I've used the spring loaded arms and the ridgid ones and what I have found is that the ridgid arms "force" you to move and angle and use footwork more then the spring ones.
Since the springs have give, we end up moving the arm into position instead of moving ourselves.
I think that a ridgid spring mounted head would be cool or a hard "anatomically correct" body would be better.
I am not a fan of putting it on wheels/casters, but I do like it when it "moves" with my strikes and it should be well weighted.

Agreed.. But an "anatomically correct body" isn't what the jong was going for, it's creating specific angles and zones to move through, around...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed.. But an "anatomically correct body" isn't what the jong was going for, it's creating specific angles and zones to move through, around...

The more it resembles the body, the more those zones will be "correct" and "direct".

[YungChun]

The more it resembles the body, the more those zones will be "correct" and "direct".

Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once...because it's static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.

[Knifefighter]

Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once...because it's static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.

Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn't translate to combat against another human being.

[YungChun]

Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn't translate to combat against another human being.

It offers all zones so you can move through all zones.. If you don't move your body into these various zones then it doesn't translate.. You don't do VT so of course it doesn't translate to what you do, understand or even attempt to understand because your sole purpose here is to troll.

[Tao Of The Fist]

I'm not a wing chun guy and i don't know if this conflicts with the whole centerline theory thing, but how about making the body able to twist? To further explain, trying to simulate a human torso by making it able to twist 90* left and right, but the further it turns away from natural position the tension and pull increases and it takes more effort to push it further? maybe use some sort of internal spring system. I don't know, i'm working on a scale model but for a specialized jong.

[YungChun]

I'm not a wing chun guy and i don't know if this conflicts with the whole centerline theory thing, but how about making the body able to twist? To further explain, trying to simulate a human torso by making it able to twist 90* left and right, but the further it turns away from natural position the tension and pull increases and it takes more effort to push it further? maybe use some sort of internal spring system. I don't know, i'm working on a scale model but for a specialized jong.

The idea is that it doesn't move (turn) in order to force you to move.

The fixed nature of the arm positions, etc was not a design error/limitation, rather the point.....

[Tao Of The Fist]

The idea is that it doesn't move (turn) in order to force you to move.

The fixed nature of the arm positions, etc was not a design error/limitation, rather the point.....

It was just an idea... :(

[sanjuro_ronin]

Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once...because it's static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.

I disagree with your disagreement.
LOL !
In terms of visual cues and angle understanding, the closer something appears to what you will face in reality, the better.
Its sort of like fighter pilot simulations and such, teach the mind to see a certain way and it works that way.
The dummy is NOT a fighting tool because it does not fight, if it is a target tool, then it must show the right targets, if it is a tool for developing angles and zones for striking in certain ways, then it must show those angles and zones in the closest possible way.

[YungChun]

I disagree with your disagreement.
LOL !
In terms of visual cues and angle understanding, the closer something appears to what you will face in reality, the better.
Its sort of like fighter pilot simulations and such, teach the mind to see a certain way and it works that way.
The dummy is NOT a fighting tool because it does not fight, if it is a target tool, then it must show the right targets, if it is a tool for developing angles and zones for striking in certain ways, then it must show those angles and zones in the closest possible way.

How in the world is a static device supposed to offer all possible zones at once while also being anatomically correct?

It can't.. If you think it can then how?

Unless it was to be able to move into different positions for each zone, and then it would certainly not be static.

[YungChun]

It was just an idea... :(

No problem... Keep thinking!

I made a dummy arm thing when I started training. Late at night I would attach it to the telephone pole outside my house and work my moves... My device (which I still have) used a solo-flex joint to allow the arm to move with resistance..

In the end what you find is that there is really no substitute for training with a live resisting partner.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How in the world is a static device supposed to offer all possible zones at once while also being anatomically correct?

It can't.. If you think it can then how?

Unless it was to be able to move into different positions for each zone, and then it would certainly not be static.

Well, it can't do ALL but as much as possible, for as many correct angles as possible.
We don't fight smooth trees, we fight bodies with cavities and angles, with shoulder and elbows.
Those things make a big difference in a fight, a low line attack that goes perfect on the dummy, get "blocked" by an elbow that is always there on an arm, but never there on the dummy.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The Wooden Dummu used in TWC is built so that the body of it will actually move (slide left-or-right) when hit or kicked hard from an angle - and this is an improvement that I reccommend to all wing chun stylists - as the movement will more closely resemble an opponent's reaction.

In addition, I've padded the entire WD (except for the arms and leg, of course) - so you can go full power, which is also an improvement: again more realistic training. (And I've come to prefer often using very thin, semi-fingerless bag type gloves in this regard - so that I now can hit, kick, elbow, and knee as hard as i want.

In addition, sometimes I remove the arms and leg and basically use the WD as a kind of heavy bag that will move laterally when blasted.

As for the actual WD moves and sequences - I believe one should always be experimenting in this regard, so that you're using the entire WD as a kind of spontaneous shadow-boxing apparatus that you will actually contact and improvise on.

And on a final note, and as mentioned on another thread, I don't believe that anything more than once (or possibly twice) a week sessions on the WD is beneficial (once you've learned the sequences)...since working with a live partner is always a more beneficial training.

Keep this in mind, though: One of the biggest advantages to using the WD is the opportunity to develop powerful striking at short range while contacting a limb with the arm you're not striking with, ie.- near simultaneous block-and-strike...

as well as using the same arm that may have just redirected or parried an opponent's limb to continue on into the opponent's body or head for a strike: again, a short range training device to work on powerul strikes and bridging all at the same time - from close range.

Once you finally get it that wing chun is meant to be used primarily as a close range striking system - you've been liberated from the idea that it can do things it's not very efficient at...and seeing it for what it really is - it becomes better in its application.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the end what you find is that there is really no substitute for training with a live resisting partner.

That's just it, it is NOT supposed to, just like a HB isn't supposed to either.
But it is suppose to be an aid for solo training VS a live opponent.
Now, you obviously can't train combative foot work on it, or counters, but what you can train is HOW to ATTACK a "presented form".

[YungChun]

That's just it, it is NOT supposed to, just like a HB isn't supposed to either.
But it is suppose to be an aid for solo training VS a live opponent.
Now, you obviously can't train combative foot work on it, or counters, but what you can train is HOW to ATTACK a "presented form".

Agreed and the WD offers forms in all zones..along with "stiff resistance" the ability to resist energy, feed it back, etc..

One of the complaints you'll here is that during ChiSao the partner will become stiff and non-compliant.. The dummy is as stiff as it gets.. (no jokes please ;)) Forcing you to move and adapt via movement and change..

I think it is fine for what it is... BUT as I said you will get more out of a live resisting partner. The WD and other drills are what I and some others call "perfection work" and I think it is fine for what it is.

[goju]

this is a interesting and funny bit on william cheung and the dummy

"years later in 1973 i started teaching and on one of my trips back to hong kong at the end of the decade i haeard someone had made a supposed mechanical wooden dummy. It supposedly moved at three speeds, slow, medium, and fast. I asked Wong Shung Leung if it was true and he confimred it> the man who built it apparenly had studied with oen of yip's students and was quite an engineer.

So i went with koo to have alook the man lived in a 600 square foot apartment on the third floor. I said i'd heard about this mechanical wooden dummy, He said that he has spent three years building it and it worked very well.When i asked him where it was he pointed down a corridor toward a sliding door. I walked over and opended the door.The man said that the dummy was next to the toilet andi shoudl walk in and close the door behind me.

I stepped in and the dummy came to life throwing punches and kicks. I fell onto the toilet and tried blocking attacks but they were too fast. It hit me me in the groin,at which point i heard the engineer yell "sibak, do you want me to make it go faster!?"

"No!" i shouted "make it go slower! make it stop!" it hurt but it as funny.

His mechanical wooden dummy proved less thanm spectacular when it came to training never the less i cant help but think that if one were to use modern computerizd sensors and a remote control it might be possible to build a dummy that could track your position position and launch realistic attacks that foced you use to footwork and proper technique.


this would be an interesting way to take the wooden dummy to a new stage

[Tom Kagan]

Do you know what you have after you upgrade and improve a dummy? A dummy.

[LoneTiger108]

Do you know what you have after you upgrade and improve a dummy? A dummy.

Should you update the wooden man? Do what you like but remember it's wood for a reason. Has it's 3 arms and leg for a reason. Is called a wooden man (not dummy!) for a reason!

I wouldn't say padding it up is an upgrade, as that's what your 3 section wall bag can (or should!) be used for.

Spinning, springing and even floating blooming bodies are just variations to the frame to be honest, and most experiements were probably already done before the final product was born by Ip Man. It's fixed for a reason!

So, in short, why upgrade something that already has it's purpose and is serving it very well indeed. If only for the lucky people who have been taught well...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Do you know what you have after you upgrade and improve a dummy? A dummy.

***Actually, there's a number of dummies around here, and I can think of at least two who know basically nothing about the muk yan jong.

[k gledhill]

You can feel guys who have been working on the dummy, they get sharper actions, sudden, short sharp juts...

to further develop jum and tan dual energy striking with the ballistic element each has, added from dummy training. By using the angles and rigidity of the arms we can move and strike across the dummy arms as we use toi ma, side shuffling steps, pivoting...iow, footwork coupled with striking drills.


We use a high jum strike using the inside forearm against the dummy arm as we strike towards the dummy's 'head , instead of a high gaun sao that many seem to have adopted. The idea for this is to further re-enforce the dual strike/deflection from dan chi-sao, as you aim to strike while using alignment to be aimed at a persons head. Not a singular lateral force of gaun sao coupled with a low gaun sao too...iow 2 defensive actions ! ....the jum strike leads to a cycle from the high jum then becoming a bong ballistic energy , developing the displacing slapping force on the low arm, while the previous defensive action of low gaun sao returns to striking tan elbow alignment...the tan using the outside of the forearm while striking forwards. The tans elbow being kept low and inwards as SLT...
iow one arm is always striking directly, either in duality of energy or coupled with a fully committed defensive arm action ..ie low gaun sao...

cycling arms attacking...coupled with short sharp burst of focused alignment.

Our primary attacking actions involve a jut from tan or a pak from jum , relying on which is leading relative to the opponents leading arm and your tactical positions....

these are developed further from basic levels into sharper repeated workouts on the dummy , rigid arms offer the required resistance for the actions. We adopt angles but use the same facing techniques , so we move along the dummy and cycle or angle in and attack etc...things we cant do with a partner , ask them to offer 'iron bar' arms for workouts repeatedly for us....

Obviously the preceding tactical scenarios require 100's of hours of chi-sao to ingrain intuitive reactions to our relative positions...etc...ie what leading tan side comes into us from left or right, what side we counter angle to....in drills using seung ma, toi ma, shuffle steps , pivoting...all used in sparring.

We also utilize the momentum of the body in motion to coincide with the actions of the arms so we harness the body mass in movement as we strike/deflect across the face , as if we are cuttin gthe way, or cutting off the ring ...We learn to also use the momentum of body mass in motion against the opponents, so if it isnt doen correctly we can easily capitalize on mistakes made.

impo the issues mma guys will have is they are trying to equate abstract dummy actions into functional 'moves' like KATA. It wont happen and leads to vt kickboxing because the moves are way to slow , over using arms for countering simple punches etc...

If we are developing into attackers, why spend so much time doing redundant arm moves for a simply punch the opponent throws ? iow why do kwan sao...why use a bong AND a tan to block a guys punch, like overkill... no wonder some vt gets its butt handed to it if this is the idea being touted.


you cant copy VT from seeing it in youtubes, never mind understand whats being developed. Like you cant see bjj guys lying on you with body weight until you feel it being done ...not all apparent.

A lot of VT is passed down without deep understanding of the fundamentals, so it leads to what it is now ...

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think Yung Chun is right. The dummy is not meant to similate fighting at all. It is like Sil Lim in that it is designed to teach center line theory. Sil Lim teaches not only the hand techniques and stance, but also gives reference to center and teaches you to apply your techniques on center. The dummy then allows you to apply this theory while using footwork. It is a way of applying it to a resisting opponent as such without causing injury to either opponent or yourself, but still does not similate fighting as such. This is just learning, just as in the other hand forms. It is learning in a learning environment. You spar with resisting opponents only to train what you have learned while in your learning environment. You can not learn while fighting. If it is really fighting you will not have time to learn much. You just apply what you have learned while in your learning environment. The only thing you achieve in a fight is to practice what you have learned earlier. Otherwise all you get out of it is a flat face and ears that look like vegetables.

[k gledhill]

The system can seem abstract if you dont know what your developing.

[LoneTiger108]

The system can seem abstract if you dont know what your developing.

Again you say what I am thinking! ;) The wooden man does require a training purpose beyond what the 108/116 shows us. As do the forms and weaponry drills.

There are stories of one of Lee Shings more famous students, Joseph Cheng, who was heard by some of his students training on the wooden man, and rather than the 'clonk clonk' sound they were used to hearing from the form, they heard a sound like a machine gun. Continuouse and unwielding.

FME When you 'fill-in' the pictures in books (with your knowledge of the wing chun 'seed'), this is what you hear. And this should be what you strive for in wooden man practise.

My opinion of course! :)

[k gledhill]

Again you say what I am thinking! ;) The wooden man does require a training purpose beyond what the 108/116 shows us. As do the forms and weaponry drills.

There are stories of one of Lee Shings more famous students, Joseph Cheng, who was heard by some of his students training on the wooden man, and rather than the 'clonk clonk' sound they were used to hearing from the form, they heard a sound like a machine gun. Continuouse and unwielding.

FME When you 'fill-in' the pictures in books (with your knowledge of the wing chun 'seed'), this is what you hear. And this should be what you strive for in wooden man practise.

My opinion of course! :)

no offence but you cant tell by the sound , you have to FFFEEEEELLL :D you can be very soft and relaxed as long as your working the idea.

[shawchemical]

Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn't translate to combat against another human being.

Just because you have less imagination than a 2 day old newt, doesn't mean that the world suffers from the same problems.

[LoneTiger108]

no offence but you cant tell by the sound , you have to FFFEEEEELLL :D you can be very soft and relaxed as long as your working the idea.

Ok I understand that we can train many soft ideals too on the wooden man, but c'mon! :cool: The wood don't hit back! So give it some welly and prep those tendons, muscles and bones...

[LSWCTN1]

Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn't translate to combat against another human being.

granted, to a degree. although...

boxers use a heavy bag, karateka use a makiwara, grapplers often use a heavy bag/dummy of sorts

its just a training instrument, nothingmore or less


There are stories of one of Lee Shings more famous students, Joseph Cheng, who was heard by some of his students training on the wooden man, and rather than the 'clonk clonk' sound they were used to hearing from the form, they heard a sound like a machine gun. Continuouse and unwielding.

dummy, and parking meters...

[LoneTiger108]

dummy, and parking meters...

:D;) Well, you may be able to share some more stories like this about Uncle Cheng!

I heard about those darned parking meters :eek: Guess thats what you get when your arms are 'as wood' :cool:

[LSWCTN1]

:D;) Well, you may be able to share some more stories like this about Uncle Cheng!

I heard about those darned parking meters :eek: Guess thats what you get when your arms are 'as wood' :cool:

i actually learnt very little about Joseph Cheng from my family, that particular story is from Steve Morris, who i believe was another outstanding student of Joseph Cheng

[t_niehoff]

Do you know what you have after you upgrade and improve a dummy? A dummy.

The most insightful post on the thread.

[LoneTiger108]

i actually learnt very little about Joseph Cheng from my family, that particular story is from Steve Morris, who i believe was another outstanding student of Joseph Cheng

Wasn't Steve at SENi a few years back? Relaunched his teaching I think, and yes he learnt from Joseph Cheng. As I understand it he was a formidable Kareteka beforehand was he not?

Obviously Uncle Cheng impressed him with his toughness and speed gained by his wooden man training! :D;)

[YungChun]

"We have various devices" ... LOL

Check out the new and improved "wooden dummy" @ 1:13 :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYI9H7L93iQ

"Weird wild stuff" LMAO

[tigershorty]

that is one hell of a conversation piece.

[Wayfaring]

"We have various devices" ... LOL

Check out the new and improved "wooden dummy" @ 1:13 :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYI9H7L93iQ

"Weird wild stuff" LMAO

That stuff just has to be from the set of "Men Who Stare At Goats"...

[sanjuro_ronin]

that is one hell of a conversation piece.

No, this is:
http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/the-fe-tisch-coffee-table.jpg