Wing Chun, mma, and the future

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from 'wing chun' guys." (Things like bong, pak, lop, garn, bil, lan, near simultaneous beat and one half attack & defense, vertical fist punches with the elbows down and in close to the sides, the Vitor Belfort variation on the same, etc.) -Ultimatewingchun


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
I disagree Vic, if we haven't seen it up to now, I don't see why we will see it in the future.
People would have to get "pushed" into it and once they begin to see who much they have to "change" and then it is no longer "WC", you'll see WC people either NOT doing it or stop being "WC people".

***WOULD LIKE TO answer Paul's post, and also talk about power generation - since this has become a hot topic on recent threads as well.

Let me put it this way:

I think ANOTHER version of wing chun that will make it into mma fighting (already called Alan Orr's style A version)...okay...another version of wing chun will be something similar to JKD - although I strongly hesitate to call it by that name, since I think that this will have a more decidedly wing chun look and feel to it once in close quarters (and at times from long range) than JKD.

But that said, and acknowledging up front that there will be a boxing, MT/clinch fighting and wrestling/grappling aspect as well...

I think that Bruce Lee's idea about power side forward - along with fighting out of a 50/50 weight front stance - and with a pronounced boxing type footwork with lots of spring coming off the back foot (and with some adjustments in such footwork for the purposes of kicking)...

while using the rear hand to occupy and guard the centerline/central line - that is...when not throwing punches with the rear hand, you're using it to parry, block, redirect, pak, lop, bil, etc...

and the lead hand - but as said coming from your power side will be the key offensive striking weapon - and one that will be using various BOXING type punches, ie.- jabs, stiff leads, round punches, hooks, overhands, uppercuts..

(not that the rear hand won't be used in this way also - along with big rear crosses - and not to say that combinations with both hands won't be thrown - because they will be).

In addition, both the lead and the rear hand can easily be (and will be) turned into wing chun vertical and 3/4 horizontal punching - and yes, at times in a straight blast chain punch fashion at certain ranges and moments.

Furthermore, in what I'm going to call the "possible clinch zone" you'll see some chi sao and WD type moves being used to strike, control, pressure, and yes...stop the guy form grabbing you...ALONG WITH ...MT clinch fighting and..out-and-out wrestling/grappling when either appropriate or unavoidable, ie.- pummeling for underhooks, overhooks, w h i z z e r s, etc....

shoots, sweeps, and takedowns, and so on.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knifefighter
Simple minded would be wanting people to believe what you are saying when there is no evidence to support it.
.................................

(And Jim's response):


***But there is evidence and logic in VT mechanics..

According to what Alan teaches--he uses these very mechanics.. He espouses that the VT 'full body structure' is superior to modern boxing mechanics because VT structure remains between your opponent and yourself (clinch defense), while incorporating full body power (and ground connection) into all strikes.
__________________
Jim Hawkins
M Y V T K F

[Ultimatewingchun]

OK, then is he using WC or not? Can't have it both ways.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I haven't seen him fight..

I have seen some of what he teaches and I agree that a good deal of that is VT..

On the other hand who cares what I think, the bottom line is that it makes sense, does follow the art and does not agree with your stated (and re-stated) position.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I already said he (and his students) is using his WC to fight. Weren't you one of the people who said he wasn't?

[Ultimatewingchun]

What I said was that clinching, and a guillotine is not VT.....not part of a "hidden movement" (as suggested) in BiuJee, etc, no that's not VT..

The VT aspects, (striking/standup) in that environment seem very fleeting in most cases, esp when folks want to clinch.

[Ultimatewingchun]

***WHICH is probably why Niehoff has decided that wing chun "is attached fighting".

Not saying that good clinch work is unnecessary or bad policy (I believe in mma concepts of standup/clinch/ground)...

but to make the claim that just coming in for strikes or for a clinch is the only way to make wing chun work in an mma setting is bull.

There's a lot more to wing chun that can be used than just punching while pressuring forward for a clinch.

And Niehoff doesn't get this because he doesn't know anything else about wing chun that can work in an nhb mma setting.

As I've said several times now: What Alan and his guys are doing is A version of wing chun. Fine. Not a problem. And so far it seems to be working for them.

But it's not the only version that can be effective.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Since I don't want to hijack Vankuen's thread, perhaps we can continue here with the discussion about what in wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, etc. will work in an nhb mma setting.

And what the future might hold in this regard.

Furthermore, perhaps we can also post some vids here of wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, etc. in action; meaning....fighting tournaments.

Tournaments with takedowns allowed, or not allowed, etc. With ground fighting allowed, or not allowed...

as the case may be.

You have to start somewhere. Today, perhaps striking and kicking only. Tomorrow, clinch fighting as well. The day after, takedowns and a 10 second groundfight rule.

And the day after that....nhb/mma. Whatever.

Let's talk about it.

[YungChun]

As I've said several times now: What Alan and his guys are doing is A version of wing chun. Fine. Not a problem. And so far it seems to be working for them.

But it's not the only version that can be effective.

I see several different kinds of expression happening among different groups... You have Alan's group, Phil's group and the other examples on the net, plus more that we haven't seen..

Each group has a certain focus but I don't have a problem calling each version their version of VT...

Many of the VT fighters are just starting out and will change and improve over time, their method will evolve...their VT will evolve..

And of course the venue and rules as well as the focus each group has will influence the results..

I see VT now in early stages of trying to find its place in MMA and other full contact venues.. I think there are enough dedicated folks (dedicated to the VT method) that we will continue to see VT mature and find its place..

Those saying no one fights, there are no VT fighters, no one is training hard, etc, are simply in error.. And as time goes forward IMO they will be in greater error.

[SAAMAG]

Dude did you just reply to your own thread 7 times?!

[Ultimatewingchun]

7 is a very lucky number, man....:cool:

[SAAMAG]

Hmmm...what if you get shot 7 times? Still lucky? ; )


Alright! Sorry for highjacking! I'm out!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Btw, Jim...I like your post, and agree with 99% of it.

Here's the 1% that I would say needs some adjustment.

You refer to ALL wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, etc...as VT.

Now VT stands for Ving Tsun, and only that.

And having done VT for 8 years with Moy Yat, and after doing TWC for the last 27 years (My God, May 16th will be exactly 35 years)...

I can tell you that they really are two systems - for the most part. And what Robert, Alan, and their guys are doing is a different system - for the most part.

And there's Wing Tsun, HFY, Weng Chun, Pan Nam, Yuan Kay San, etc. etc.

Sure there's plenty of overlap between most systems/styles. But there are signature differences that should be recognized as such.

Not saying what's better or worse, just recognizing the differences. :)

[YungChun]

Btw, Jim...I like your post, and agree with 99% of it.

Here's the 1% that I would say needs some adjustment.

You refer to ALL wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, etc...as VT.

Now VT stands for Ving Tsun, and only that.

And having done VT for 8 years with Moy Yat, and after doing TWC for the last 27 years (My God, May 16th will be exactly 35 years)...

I can tell you that they really are two systems - for the most part. And what Robert, Alan, and their guys are doing is a different system - for the most part.

And there's Wing Tsun, HFY, Weng Chun, Pan Nam, Yuan Kay San, etc. etc.

Sure there's plenty of overlap between most systems/styles. But there are signature differences that have to be recognized as such.

Not saying what's better or worse, just recognizing the differences. :)

Well normally I refer to all "Wing Chun" when I write VT.. I changed the label I use to VT because that's mine.. :)

I have my own personal ideas about the art and ways and what I prefer method wise as well..

I don't always agree with what some do but I accept what they do as their VT so long as there is some kind of VT core there.

[Frost]

"I predict that in the future (within mma) you're gonna see all of the above from 'wing chun' guys." (Things like bong, pak, lop, garn, bil, lan, near simultaneous beat and one half attack & defense, vertical fist punches with the elbows down and in close to the sides, the Vitor Belfort variation on the same, etc.) -Ultimatewingchun


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
I disagree Vic, if we haven't seen it up to now, I don't see why we will see it in the future.
People would have to get "pushed" into it and once they begin to see who much they have to "change" and then it is no longer "WC", you'll see WC people either NOT doing it or stop being "WC people".

***WOULD LIKE TO answer Paul's post, and also talk about power generation - since this has become a hot topic on recent threads as well.

Let me put it this way:

I think ANOTHER version of wing chun that will make it into mma fighting (already called Alan Orr's style A version)...okay...another version of wing chun will be something similar to JKD - although I strongly hesitate to call it by that name, since I think that this will have a more decidedly wing chun look and feel to it once in close quarters (and at times from long range) than JKD.

But that said, and acknowledging up front that there will be a boxing, MT/clinch fighting and wrestling/grappling aspect as well...

I think that Bruce Lee's idea about power side forward - along with fighting out of a 50/50 weight front stance - and with a pronounced boxing type footwork with lots of spring coming off the back foot (and with some adjustments in such footwork for the purposes of kicking)...

while using the rear hand to occupy and guard the centerline/central line - that is...when not throwing punches with the rear hand, you're using it to parry, block, redirect, pak, lop, bil, etc...

and the lead hand - but as said coming from your power side will be the key offensive striking weapon - and one that will be using various BOXING type punches, ie.- jabs, stiff leads, round punches, hooks, overhands, uppercuts..

(not that the rear hand won't be used in this way also - along with big rear crosses - and not to say that combinations with both hands won't be thrown - because they will be).

In addition, both the lead and the rear hand can easily be (and will be) turned into wing chun vertical and 3/4 horizontal punching - and yes, at times in a straight blast chain punch fashion at certain ranges and moments.

Furthermore, in what I'm going to call the "possible clinch zone" you'll see some chi sao and WD type moves being used to strike, control, pressure, and yes...stop the guy form grabbing you...ALONG WITH ...MT clinch fighting and..out-and-out wrestling/grappling when either appropriate or unavoidable, ie.- pummeling for underhooks, overhooks, w h i z z e r s, etc....

shoots, sweeps, and takedowns, and so on.

mma has now been around in the usa for about 20 years, in the mainstream for over a decade. dont you think that we would have seen this so called evolution by now if it was going to happen?

not to mention san shou has been around in china for even longer, and full contact events in taiwan were going on in the 70's.... how come we have not seen this wing chun striking evolution in those formates?

the fact it apart from a boxer and a karate guy no one at the top level can be seen using anything tha even resembles wing chun, and at a lower level people on this board can't even agree if what the guys like alan are doing is wing chun.

as for intergrating wing chun into clinch it has not happened by now its not going to happen there are anti clinch fighters out there but they are not using anything like wing chun.

[wkmark]

Just FYI, There are couple upcoming tournaments in ASIA for Wing Chun/Ving Tsun, etc. It is aimed more towards Yip Man Wing Chun. From what i recall, the below are what is being competed:

1.) Forms
2.) Chi Sao Competition (which I really don't understand) but whatevers.
3.) Team Full Contact Sparring (teams of 5)
4.) Individual Full Contact Sparring. (Based on weight class and separated by age)

How they are judging on forms and Chi Sao Competitions i am not 100% sure but I can get the information. It's all in Chinese and I need to take a look.

However for the sparring, it's similar to Sanda. Gears required are specially made for Wing Chun sparring. They are Full face mask with the eye slit area open, Chest protector, Opened fingerer gloves but are about 6 oz. Elbow pads, as well as shin guards.

From what I understand points are counted for doing the following:

1.) Hits to the face
2.) Hits to either sides of the jaw or underneathe.
3.) Hits to the ears
4.) Body hits
5.) Front kick
6.) Side Kick (No points for round kicks)
7.) Hits to the back.
8.) Elbow strikes are allowed but not to the top of the head.
9.) Take Downs are counted as points in a sense that whoever can take their opponent down to their 1 knee is awarded a point
10.) Forcing someone off the mat.

Illegal moves are:
1.) Hit to the throat
2.) Hit to the back of the head
3.) hit to the back of the neck
4.) Hit to the groin
5.) Finger jab to the Eye
6.) no Fish hook type to the mouth,

They are 2 minute rounds. Total of 3 rounds, I think.


I think the above are what they are working on. The earliest Match I believe will be in Malaysia, which I think is in June. There is another one in August in Hong Kong. The last one being in Either September or October in China.

The Malaysia one and China one is already firmed. I am not sure about the Hong Kong one. This is being organised in conjunction with the World Wing Chun Union.

I will let you all know if anyone gets seriously injured or how the fights turn out. I personally will be entering the Full Contact in Hong Kong if that actually happens.

The above is based on some general summary. The full manual is too thick and all in Chinese for me to read. I will eventually take a look. So If anyone needs anymore information, you can PM me for details or specific questions.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ even worrying about incorporating WC into MMA. Why even care? Do you think BJJ, Sambo, Muay Thai, wrestling, and Judo people sit around hoping that someday their stuff will be "incorporated" into MMA? No, what they do is just go out and do it. Only in the TMA world do you have people critiquing whether or not their system is or will be used in MMA.

If you think it can be incorporated into MMA, then go out and do it (either yourself or fighters you are training). Otherwise you are just another theoretical, fantasy, pretend, non-fighter.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"LOL @ even worrying about incorporating WC into MMA. Why even care?" (Knifefighter)
..................................

***THIS IS SUCH an interesting remark. The same guy who told us that Alan Orr's guys are a good example of using wing chun in mma....

now tells us that WC can't be incorporated into mma. :eek:

You've been hangin' out with Niehoff? :o

Drinkin' buddies or something?

I know, he put you into a wing chun bil jee guillotine and cut off a little too much air to your brain !!!

Take a few deep breaths, Dale...

Feelin' better now? :D

[Matrix]

now tells us that WC can't be incorporated into mma. :eek:If you read Dale's comment in full, he doesn't say that at all. He said in the same post "If you think it can be incorporated into MMA, then go out and do it".
Do it, or don't do it. Just don't theorize it to death.

What's the problem with that?

[Knifefighter]

"LOL @ even worrying about incorporating WC into MMA. Why even care?" (Knifefighter)
..................................

***THIS IS SUCH an interesting remark. The same guy who told us that Alan Orr's guys are a good example of using wing chun in mma....

now tells us that WC can't be incorporated into mma. :eek:

You've been hangin' out with Niehoff? :o

Drinkin' buddies or something?

I know, he put you into a wing chun bil jee guillotine and cut off a little too much air to your brain !!!

Take a few deep breaths, Dale...

Feelin' better now? :D

Seems like you are the one who lost some brain cells from being choked out. Where did I say it can't be done. I said go out and do it. If you aren't doing it, you are just a theoretical non-fighter.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And what I said on the first post of this thread is how I'm going about making my wing chun mma functional. It's not theory, it's exactly what I've been working on with my students for a good 7-8 years now, step-by-step. The fact that the small group I have at the moment hasn't yet resulted in one of them entering an mma event doesn't change anything.

It still is what it is.

And when I said that I believe this kind of road for wing chun will happen, I'm not just talking about myself. If you've been reading the Rick Spain thread, you can easily come away with some very similar conclusions, ie.- what I posted is very similar to what he's been working on, it would seem.

And knowing Keith Mazza as well as I do, those guys coming out of his school (and don't forget that Phil Redmond has been teaching at Keith's school for the last 4-5 years or so - with a NYC class being something he just started within the last year or so)...

I believe those guys within Keith and Phil's domain are heading down a path that will ultimately lead to something very similar to what I mentioned on that post as well.

I see it coming. They might perhaps disagree with me at the moment, but I see it coming.

And it's not necessarily only TWC people who might travel such a road either, imo.

[Frost]

And what I said on the first post of this thread is how I'm going about making my wing chun mma functional. It's not theory, it's exactly what I've been working on with my students for a good 7-8 years now, step-by-step. The fact that the small group I have at the moment hasn't yet resulted in one of them entering an mma event doesn't change anything.

It still is what it is.

And when I said that I believe this kind of road for wing chun will happen, I'm not just talking about myself. If you've been reading the Rick Spain thread, you can easily come away with some very similar conclusions, ie.- what I posted is very similar to what he's been working on, it would seem.

And knowing Keith Mazza as well as I do, those guys coming out of his school (and don't forget that Phil Redmond has been teaching at Keith's school for the last 4-5 years or so - with a NYC class being something he just started within the last year or so)...

I believe those guys within Keith and Phil's domain are heading down a path that will ultimately lead to something very similar to what I mentioned on that post as well.

I see it coming. They might perhaps disagree with me at the moment, but I see it coming.

And it's not necessarily only TWC people who might travel such a road either, imo.

you have been working on it for a good 8 years and you still can't get it to a point where 1 student... just 1.... is good enough to enter a local amature event....if i was you i would seriously consider changing the way you teach and your overall approach you must be doing something seriously wrong

[Niersun]

From my perspective. The reason you see more karate, BJJ, Kick Boxers, sambo in MMA over Wing Chun is that there is sporting events for these styles where people want to compete and the natural thing to do is up the challenge and go into MMA to make more money.

Honestly, the only thing that Wing Chun will bring to MMA is blocking.

Do we really need to prove ourselves to the MA community and compete in MMA??? Are we really that insecure about our techniques and ability to fight???

[Niersun]

you have been working on it for a good 8 years and you still can't get it to a point where 1 student... just 1.... is good enough to enter a local amature event....if i was you i would seriously consider changing the way you teach and your overall approach you must be doing something seriously wrong

How is this comment constructive?

[Frost]

How is this comment constructive?

Well criticism can be constructive.....I think we should all look at our training from time to time don't you?
what I am saying that if he has been following a certain path for 8 years and training what he calls an MMA way and yet not one of his students is ready to compete at any level then maybe he should stop telling people what the future of MMA will look like and how wing chun will fit in with it and look at his own training system

[HumbleWCGuy]

you have been working on it for a good 8 years and you still can't get it to a point where 1 student... just 1.... is good enough to enter a local amature event....if i was you i would seriously consider changing the way you teach and your overall approach you must be doing something seriously wrong

Some of it has to do with being able to get good athletes. A lot of the good athletes want to fight. Assuming that his training principles are otherwise sound, he probably should try a different recruitment strategy. Give out some scholarships to some athletic poor kids or something.

When I came into WC, my whole deal was that I fully intended to, "stomp some a$$," because I had a serious need to defend myself. I don't know that people get into it for the same reasons anymore.

[Frost]

Some of it has to do with being able to get good athletes. A lot of the good athletes want to fight. Assuming that his training principles are otherwise sound, he probably should try a different recruitment strategy. Give out some scholarships to some athletic poor kids or something.

When I came into WC, my whole deal was that I fully intended to, "stomp some a$$," because I had a serious need to defend myself. I don't know that people get into it for the same reasons anymore.

some of it is down to the students, but if they have been with him for years during the MMA evolution he is going through why did they stay if they were not interested in MMA?

don't you think its a bit odd that he has been taking an MMA approach to training for 8 years with his students, doing wing chun boxing grappling etc and he is telling people this is the way of the future and how boxing can help wing chun against a good fighter, how catch is a great MMA grappling style and how wing chun will be the future of MMA but he has yet to field 1 fighter in MMA, kickboxing, boxing a smoker or any other format?

[goju]

Do we really need to prove ourselves to the MA community and compete in MMA??? Are we really that insecure about our techniques and ability to fight???


i think largely yes thats why there is more talk about mma in this sub forum than there is in the mma sub forum lol

[HumbleWCGuy]

some of it is down to the students, but if they have been with him for years during the MMA evolution he is going through why did they stay if they were not interested in MMA?

don't you think its a bit odd that he has been taking an MMA approach to training for 8 years with his students, doing wing chun boxing grappling etc and he is telling people this is the way of the future and how boxing can help wing chun against a good fighter, how catch is a great MMA grappling style and how wing chun will be the future of MMA but he has yet to field 1 fighter in MMA, kickboxing, boxing a smoker or any other format?

That's a good question. My whole thing is this. If a person does not compete (and make a decent showing) in something full-contact, they cannot become an instructor. If they want to do some points, forms, this that and the other, that's all fine for the lower ranks, but you just can't promote people who can't do that. It's the lack of this simple requirement that is the source of endless debate on this forum. If people want to LARP, theorize, and study culture, GREAT! But, my position has been and always will be that WC is a fighting art.

Think about this... If fighting at least one smoker and making a decent showing were a requirement, how many WCers, masters and grandmasters included, would be certified?

[YungChun]

That's a good question. My whole thing is this. If a person does not compete (and make a decent showing) in something full-contact, they cannot become an instructor. If they want to do some points, forms, this that and the other, that's all fine for the lower ranks, but you just can't promote people who can't do that. It's the lack of this simple requirement that is the source of endless debate on this forum. If people want to LARP, theorize, and study culture, GREAT! But, my position has been and always will be that WC is a fighting art.

What is the standard in Judo for becoming an instructor level? How about BJJ?

I think a standard like that would be great, in fact I think a similar standard to what Judo does would also be great for all promotions. But how do you get any standards going?

I suppose one school could adopt this kind of standard and then it might proliferate...and become a new standard..

[goju]

i think in kk karate you have to have fought to teach and get a certain belt level

that method can be adopted in other martial arts to weed out the "mc'dojo" schools

[HumbleWCGuy]

My judo buddy makes his students go to a tournament before each rank. I don't know if that is a judo association requirement or not.

[HumbleWCGuy]

i think in kk karate you have to have fought to teach and get a certain belt level

that method can be adopted in other martial arts to weed out the "mc'dojo" schools

That's exactly it. People who want to make money try to grow their organization by certifying people for things that are irrelevant to fighting.

Edit: to be honest, 8 week of training for a smoker isn't a lot to ask if a person has already been training and learning for 6 or more years.

[Frost]

That's a good question. My whole thing is this. If a person does not compete (and make a decent showing) in something full-contact, they cannot become an instructor. If they want to do some points, forms, this that and the other, that's all fine for the lower ranks, but you just can't promote people who can't do that. It's the lack of this simple requirement that is the source of endless debate on this forum. If people want to LARP, theorize, and study culture, GREAT! But, my position has been and always will be that WC is a fighting art.

Think about this... If fighting at least one smoker and making a decent showing were a requirement, how many WCers, masters and grandmasters included, would be certified?

lol now you have done it all the "we fight on the street not the ring" guys will be after you and not dale or terrance:)

you raise a good point, my view is a bit different maybe you can become a good teacher and trainer of fighters without having fought that much (i said maybe!) but unless youare turning out fighters, boxers or grapplers you really should not be talking about what does and does not work in those enviroments and what will or will not be the next big thing in those sports

[Frost]

What is the standard in Judo for becoming an instructor level? How about BJJ?

I think a standard like that would be great, in fact I think a similar standard to what Judo does would also be great for all promotions. But how do you get any standards going?

I suppose one school could adopt this kind of standard and then it might proliferate...and become a new standard..

Anyone can teach BJJ and I think judo as well, but guys will not choose to train at a gym that does not compete or does not belong to a recognised body.... or if it does compete they always ends up losing.

You first need a competition format people can enter before you standardize anything, when schools compete in any event it’s easy to see why are the good coaches and who are the bad ones...without such a competition it’s too easy for bad instructors to set up shop

[Frost]

My judo buddy makes his students go to a tournament before each rank. I don't know if that is a judo association requirement or not.

two ways to get promoted in judo I believe, you have to either have a certain number of tournaments under your belt, or have been in the art for a certain amount of time, but the first way is the usual way people get promoted, and as I said since judo has a nationally recognised format for competing it’s easy for people to see who are the good coaches

[HumbleWCGuy]

lol now you have done it all the "we fight on the street not the ring" guys will be after you and not dale or terrance:)

LOL...




you raise a good point, my view is a bit different maybe you can become a good teacher and trainer of fighters without having fought that much (i said maybe!) but unless youare turning out fighters, boxers or grapplers you really should not be talking about what does and does not work in those enviroments and what will or will not be the next big thing in those sports

I am open to that rare possibility that someone could not fight at all and be a great trainer. I also understand that someone who is a great trainer might have been limited to low-level events due to a myriad of reasons, injury, athleticism, and chin to name a few.

[YungChun]

but unless youare turning out fighters, boxers or grapplers you really should not be talking about what does and does not work in those enviroments and what will or will not be the next big thing in those sports


It's a discussion forum.. If folks want to discuss the merits of eating cupcakes before a match because they think it's a good idea, they have the right to say so..

Any idea or discussion can be valid, or not.. But you can't restrict discussion on a discussion board..and if folk want to speculate about the future of the sport they certainly can do that too without having to prove any particular supernatural abilities.....

[Knifefighter]

It's a discussion forum.. If folks want to discuss the merits of eating cupcakes before a match because they think it's a good idea, they have the right to say so..

Any idea or discussion can be valid, or not.. But you can't restrict discussion on a discussion board..and if folk want to speculate about the future of the sport they certainly can do that too without having to prove any particular supernatural abilities.....

Of course you can't tell someone not to state his opinions... you can, however, tell them how ludicrous those opinions are.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I had six advanced students who were still in attendance before I moved to Brooklyn in December, 2001.

Two of them were by that point in time long distance students, ie.- both had already moved from NYC to Connecticut and were only coming on an inconsistent basis.

One of them moved to Japan 5 years ago and only attends when in NYC for a visit.

Of the remaining three, one of them moved to New Jersey in 2002 with his wife (no children yet)....and is now the proud and extremely busy father of five.
P.S. - he's attended exactly two classes since June, 2002.

That leaves two guys. One of them lives in Manhattan and was coming to Brooklyn for awhile, but after the birth of his second child has been very sporadic in his attendance and also runs his own business....but is also willing to come back to class fairly regularly once I move the school back to Manhattan.

And the last guy lives in Staten Island and works in New Jersey...has attended a fair amount of classes in Brooklyn in total over the last 8.5 years - but on a very inconsistent basis, ie.- he attended class only about 6-7 times in all of 2009.

However his New Jersey workplace can easily access the area of Manhattan that I plan to go to - and he also has said that he'll attend regularly once I return.

....................................

And then there was one guy living in Brooklyn who came to my Brooklyn school for about one year - and then left to go to an mma place in Manhattan - precisely because I didn't have enough guys in the Brooklyn school for him to roll with...

although he's sold on mma - he prefers to wrestle/grapple....and has competed in a few smokers since leaving my school: first grappling only, and then one or two all out mma.

I suspect he might come back to train with me once I move back to Manhattan - since instead of 6-7 guys I anticipate carrying about 12-14 students.

And again, all of this changes nothing about what it is I've been doing; and I believe the road being travelled is a good one, and will be populated by other wing chun people as well as time goes on...as well as those already on a similar road even before I got there (ie.- Rick Spain).

[Frost]

I had six advanced students who were still in attendance before I moved to Brooklyn in December, 2001.

Two of them were by that point in time long distance students, ie.- both had already moved from NYC to Connecticut and were only coming on an inconsistent basis.

One of them moved to Japan 5 years ago and only attends when in NYC for a visit.

Of the remaining three, one of them moved to New Jersey in 2002 with his wife (no children yet)....and is now the proud and extremely busy father of five.
P.S. - he's attended exactly two classes since June, 2002.

That leaves two guys. One of them lives in Manhattan and was coming to Brooklyn for awhile, but after the birth of his second child has been very sporadic in his attendance and also runs his own business....but is also willing to come back to class fairly regularly once I move the school back to Manhattan.

And the last guy lives in Staten Island and works in New Jersey...has attended a fair amount of classes in Brooklyn in total over the last 8.5 years - but on a very inconsistent basis, ie.- he attended class only about 6-7 times in all of 2009.

However his New Jersey workplace can easily access the area of Manhattan that I plan to go to - and he also has said that he'll attend regularly once I return.

....................................

And then there was one guy living in Brooklyn who came to my Brooklyn school for about one year - and then left to go to an mma place in Manhattan - precisely because I didn't have enough guys in the Brooklyn school for him to roll with...

although he's sold on mma - he prefers to wrestle/grapple....and has competed in a few smokers since leaving my school: first grappling only, and then one or two all out mma.

I suspect he might come back to train with me once I move back to Manhattan - since instead of 6-7 guys I anticipate carrying about 12-14 students.

And again, all of this changes nothing about what it is I've been doing; and I believe the road being travelled is a good one, and will be populated by other wing chun people as well as time goes on...as well as those already on a similar road even before I got there (ie.- Rick Spain).

im sorry but i know schools which have only 8 or 10 students that still compete in MMA and kickboxing.... they turn out students that compete in the first year.

You don't have to compete but perhaps you should hold off telling people what works or what direction MMA will go in until you you or your guys do

[Ultimatewingchun]

Well gee, Frost...I'm so sorry that you're sorry. :rolleyes: :cool:

And no, you won't be telling me what I should say or not say about what works.

[Frost]

Well gee, Frost...I'm so sorry that you're sorry. :rolleyes: :cool:

And no, you won't be telling me what I should say or not say about what works.

don't worry ill get over it :)

[Knifefighter]

Well gee, Frost...I'm so sorry that you're sorry. :rolleyes: :cool:

And no, you won't be telling me what I should say or not say about what works.

Here's a question for you. Why would people want to add parts of a style that, at the very least, is maybe the equivalent of styles they can already easily learn and apply? Since there is no evidence to suggest that WC offers no additional benefits over methods that are already being used, why would people start to use it in the future?

[Frost]

can i ask a question too.....how do you know wing chun as you see it would work in this enviroment when neither you nor any of your students have tried it?

[Ultimatewingchun]

The environment that most interests me is the street environment. Bareknuckled, shoes stay on (ever catch a hard rear heel kick to your knee from a guy wearing shoes?)...phoenix knuckle strikes...purposely targeting the groin with kicks and knee strikes...elbows to temples and faces, etc.

Training with lots of protective gear (and sometimes without it) and coming as close as possible to all of the above when sparring is what I believe in most of all.

Which has always been the single biggest reason why so many of the people I've trained (like the 6 mentioned previously) have come for MANY years to my school - they appreciated the realism.

And we have actually simulated the more dangerous moves I've described (light-to-very-little contact) many times in my classes, ie.- groin kicks, phoenix knuckle strikes to the body with no gloves, elbows to the face while wearing head gear with the metal cage (and with elbow pads to protect the attacker, etc.)

All that said, I'm also a very big fan of UFC, PRIDE, STRIKEFORCE, etc. from day one...and training a few students to eventually go into mma-type comps is still something that I'd like to do at some point down the not-too-distant road.

Okay, so with that back drop:

No, I don't think...I know that a boxing/wing chun/wrestling approach works. In the street, and within my school while training/sparring with not just my students through the years (the best of whom all had backgrounds in things like boxing, karate, TKD, kickboxing, wrestling)...but also some jiu jitsu guys I've worked with from outside my school, some karate guys, some guys trained in boxing who were not part of my school, etc.

And after reading so many of my posts by now, Dale Frank, if you don't know exacty what it is within wing chun that I believe brings something special and a bit different to the table within an mma (or street) setting - you're never going to know - and I have no interest in having to repeat it again and again.

Which brings me to you, Frost.

I'm not getting involved in responding to yet another troll, or mma know-it-all, or chest beater, or out-and-out bull5hit artist...(you decide which category(s) you fall into).

So if you want more answers from me: I suggest you go back and research many of my previous posts.

[Ultimatewingchun]

As said, I started working boxing and catch wrestling into the program in a serious fashion back around 2002 - in an attempt to mix wing chun with other arts. But here is a clip from 1993...
And one of the 6 students I've alluded to, Michael Mundy, (who is also one of the guys who will be attending regularly once again when I re-open in Manhattan)...

won a contact sparring (but point system) tournament. This was the second of two matches he fought that day.

As you can see, even then we were working with some things that were a bit outside of the wing chun (TWC) box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-lZTCpnLCg

Btw, one of the guys standing in the background, the one wearing a black and white shirt with a thin black tie and black pants - with a few words to say at the end - that was me.

[Frost]

Which brings me to you, Frost.

I'm not getting involved in responding to yet another troll, or mma know-it-all, or chest beater, or out-and-out bull5hit artist...(you decide which category(s) you fall into).

So if you want more answers from me: I suggest you go back and research many of my previous posts.

troll, know it all, chest beater or bull$hit artist...umm let me see can i be of the above please :) lets see i have listed before the gyms i train at, i have said what i have and have not competed in, is that what a troll does these days?

I suppose if we want to talk about trolling and bull$hitting we could go over your old posts ... you know the ones where you tell guys with blackbelts and purplebelts in BJJ what BJJ is and how it can be beat etc....even though you have never competed in grappling anywhere...shall we start with those posts ?

Or if its proof of being a chest beater and a know it all you are after how about telling people what will be the next big thing in MMA when you don't even train it or compete in it ....or how about posting videos about how to deal with a hook when you have never boxed or even trained in the art. Is that something a chest beater and know it all would do?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Someone asked if "WE" need to prove our WC in a MMA enviroment.
The answer is NO.
If one is happy doing what they are doing that is all that matters.
However, if one is doing a MA ( any MA) as a means of self-protection and to be able to fight to the max of their ability then YES, those skills MUST be tested and they must be tested to and at the highest level possible.
Better to fail in the ring and fix it, then to fail in the "street" and pay for it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's a real good post there, sanjuro.

[trubblman]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

[m1k3]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

What do you base this on? How about a BJJ guy that trains 3 hours a week? If you have never done it you don't know. There are lots of people who train BJJ and MMA has a hobby, less than 6 hours a week. Go your local MMA school and ask to spar. This can be a friendly match up and I am sure there are several people there who would be glad to go a couple of rounds with you.

[Knifefighter]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

It isn't rare for an amateur MMA fighter with a full-time job to train 4-5 hours per week.

[YungChun]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

10 times zero is still zero..

In other words it's more the quality of the training vs the amount.. You can train poorly 100 hours a week and it won't help..

I maintain that folks need better stronger basics, a strong foundation AND more realistic training.. Then all the problems/limitations go away to the extent possible given whatever is covered...

[t_niehoff]

10 times zero is still zero..

In other words it's more the quality of the training vs the amount.. You can train poorly 100 hours a week and it won't help..


Good point.

That's why, as Dale pointed out, amateur MMA fighters can get good results training 4-5 hours a week.



I maintain that folks need better stronger basics, a strong foundation AND more realistic training.. Then all the problems/limitations go away to the extent possible given whatever is covered...

In my view, if someone wants to develop good fighting skills they need to approach their training in a completely different way than how WCK is typically taught/trained -- the old TCMA-model of teaching/training has proved to produce very poor results for the majority of practitioners. Instead, they should adopt a teaching/training approach that has proved to produce very good results for the majority of its practitioners - the functional/sport model.

[Frost]

When you compare Wing Chun, MMA and Boxing, are you sure you arent comparing apples and oranges? MMA is the sport du-jour. In my opinion I don't think a Wing Chun martial artist is at a disadvantage necessarily against a boxer or MMA fighter. Without a doubt, I would get my ass kicked in a UFC match. But how many wing chun artists practice 6 - 8 hours a day 5 - 6 days a week with a Sifu. I think if a wing chun artist did that he probably would be a match. And if I by some chance I fought an MMA or boxer guy who trains about 4 -5 hours a week for the past several years I could hold my own.

Thats a cop out its not the time they spend training that would be the reason they beat you, its the quality of the training.

as others have pointed out amature MMA guys hold down jobs and don't train as much as people like to make out (MMA pay sucks unless you are in the UFC) its quality not quantity of training, all their training is geared towards making them a better more skilful fighter.

Its amazing how good guys can get with very little weekly training if that training is functional

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thats a cop out its not the time they spend training that would be the reason they beat you, its the quality of the training.

as others have pointed out amature MMA guys hold down jobs and don't train as much as people like to make out (MMA pay sucks unless you are in the UFC) its quality not quantity of training, all their training is geared towards making them a better more skilful fighter.

Its amazing how good guys can get with very little weekly training if that training is functional

Quite correct, if the vast majority of time is spent of functional and specific activities, most any physical endevour requires far less time to be applicable than most people think.
Pros that put in 15-20 hours a week are doing much more than pure functional work, they are going above and beyond.

[Frost]

Quite correct, if the vast majority of time is spent of functional and specific activities, most any physical endevour requires far less time to be applicable than most people think.
Pros that put in 15-20 hours a week are doing much more than pure functional work, they are going above and beyond.

true one of the fighters i know when he finally got pro coaches was amazed that both his MMA coach and S and C coach suggested he cut his training to allow time for recovery, and low and behold he became better and was less injured

[LoneTiger108]

I thought this may be of interest to some of you guys :cool:

http://www.senishow.com/JC%20Santana.jpg

Certain 'proof' that conditioning has it's place when training competitive fighters?

[Frost]

I thought this may be of interest to some of you guys :cool:

http://www.senishow.com/JC%20Santana.jpg

Certain 'proof' that conditioning has it's place when training competitive fighters?

didn't he blow his ACL out whilst demonstrating some of his MMA conditioning stuff on a swissball a few years ago :)

[goju]

i dont know why one earth those silly balls have become so popular

lets dangle heavy weights above us while being suported on an unstable base!

makes perfect sense

see ya guys!