Qin na or kam na

[mig]

Hello friends,

I was wondering about the usage of qin na in southern styles more specifically in Hungkyuen. I was reading a book from Yang Jwing Ming and it is based mostly what they use in pak hok pai. I also understand that one of the techniques in hungkyuen is na but I would like more in depth information that is used in other styles. Any info would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Mig

[No_Know]

It seems to me that a tiger claw sweeping across from one side to another even if swung down or up is a wrist or shoulder chin-na. For pak hok (I presume white crane) the oneleg stance with a sweeping arm of spread wings a toppling tactic more as a chin (seize) of the leg by hooking the ankle or back of knee. Also waist chi-na when applied to the gut/abdominals in order to manipulate the shouders...if that happens.

No_Know

[TenTigers]

these days, I think it depends on what each individual Sifu's experience is and what they bring to the table.
My previous Hung-Ga Sifu knew a few basic locks. The guy I train with now has an extensive backround in Tui-Na and bonesetting and his cum-na sao reflects this.
I have a backround in Hapkido and Jiu-Jutsu,so I also bring that in, and anyone who knows anything about joint manipulation knows there is tremendous overlap. You can only bend a joint so many ways. Nobody reinvented the wheel. The difference may be in set-up, finishing strikes, and the addition (in my teacher's case) of vital point striking.
Basically, the difference is mostly in the uniforms!;)

[David Jamieson]

Chin Na is a separate skill set that has various iterations in several styles of Kung fu.

Locks, seizes and holds is the body of the techniques and there is a huge variety of them dealing with putting a lock on or getting out of it. Seizing or preventing being seized, holds and prevention of being held.

It's a great line of inclusive study in any style of kung fu.

[SifuYui]

In Hung Kuen, we have something called Sup Baat Cum La Sau - 18 Locking Techniques (roughly translated). In Hung Kuen, as in Ying Jow (Eagle Claw style), our locking techniques are based on the strength of our fingers and tendons; Hung Kuen with it's Tiger Claw training, and Eagle Claw with it's.............Eagle Claw training :)

Unlike Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's Chin Na, which is primarily based on joint manipulation, Hung Kuen's Cum La Sau is based on seizing, locking, and then finishing with another technique such as; Twisting, Ripping, Sweeping, etc. I've taken Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's basic Chin Na classes a couple of times because I really enjoyed the concepts. By adding that training with my Tiger Claw training, I feel my Chin Na/Cum La is stronger than if I only trained one way.

Like most of Hung Ga as I train longer, I find The 18 Cum La Sau does not refer to exact techniques, rather results/theory, which leaves it much more fluid and dynamic. The "names" of the 18 Cum La Sau in no particular order:

Catch
Carry
Lock
Hook
Dislocate
Touch
Dig In
Twist
Clamp
Cut
Pinch
Step on
Prop Up
Crash
Adhere
Fall
Exert Pressure
Break off

Each of the above 18 Cum La Sau has it's roots in Hung Kuen training and the moves are evident in our forms. It's just a matter of interpreting them properly.

Yui

[Brule]

In Hung Kuen, etc....Like most of Hung Ga as I train longer, I find The 18 Cum La Sau does not refer to exact techniques, rather results/theory, which leaves it much more fluid and dynamic.

Yui

SifuYui i condensed your response just to highlight something that is key to all martial arts, whether it relates to kum na/chin na or fighting. The results/theory of the style is kung fu at it's higher levels not this technique to defeat that technique.

Peace