How hopeless is it?

[David Jamieson]

Well it's pretty hopeless.

For instance, this is not hopeful, but it is a definite change in your perception of reality as of finishing reading it.

What exactly is it that you think you are fighting for or that your servicemen and women are fighting for?

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=58879


VA Strives to Prevent Veteran Suicides

By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, April 23, 2010 – With more than 6,000 veterans committing suicide every year –- and 98 veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan taking their own lives during fiscal 2009 alone -- the Department of Veterans Affairs is redoubling its outreach to veterans and promoting its toll-free suicide-prevention hotline.

National statistics show that veterans constitute about 20 percent of the 30,000 to 32,000 U.S. deaths each year from suicide. Of an average of 18 veterans who commit suicide each day, about five receive care through the VA health-care system. More than 60 percent of those five had diagnosed mental-health conditions.

Dr. Janet E. Kemp, VA’s national suicide prevention coordinator, is committed to improving those statistics. She’s heading up an aggressive outreach program to address problems that lead to suicide, and to ensure veterans as well as their loved ones know where to turn for help.

Speaking with reporters yesterday, Kemp cited mounting evidence that veterans in the 18- to 29-year-old age group who use VA health-care services are less likely to commit suicide than those who don’t.

Based on statistical comparisons between the two groups, she estimated that 250 fewer veterans enrolled in the VA system take their own lives each year. She credited VA’s screening and assessment processes designed to identify high-risk patients and provide intervention, as needed.

Yet, during fiscal 2009, 707 members of the general veteran population died at their own hands, and another 10,665 made unsuccessful suicide attempts. In addition to the 98 veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan who committed suicide – 94 men and four women – there were 1,868 who made non-fatal attempts on their lives. Of these, 1,621 were men and 247 were women, reflecting trends in the general U.S. population.

“Just one death is one too many,” said Dr. Antonette Zeiss, deputy chief for mental health services at VA’s central office. “The bottom line is, the efforts we put into enhancing overall mental health services have correlated with the reduction of suicide,” especially among males who served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Alarmed by an increase in suicides among this population between 2003 and 2004, VA adopted a comprehensive mental health strategic plan in 2004 that has helped to bring the numbers down.

Much of the plan is dedicated to increasing veterans’ access to mental-health services. VA hired 6,000 additional mental-health professionals since 2004, bringing its full complement of providers to 20,000, Zeiss said.

“Access to care makes a difference,” she said. “We have worked on improving access to care for all veterans.”

VA mental health professionals are based at every VA medical center and the largest community-based clinic, and provide same- or next-day help to veterans in need, she said.

In addition, VA established a toll-free national suicide hotline in July 2007 that Kemp said receives about 10,000 calls a month from veterans as well as currently serving soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. Callers dial 1-800-273-TALK (8255), and then select option “1” to talk directly with a VA professional trained to deal with an immediate crisis.

Kemp credited the hotline with stopping 7,000 suicides in progress, in which callers were actively hurting themselves or in imminent danger of taking their own lives.

In addition, VA initiated an online chat service last July, accessible through its suicide prevention Web site. The chat line enables veterans and their families and friends to go online to chat anonymously with a trained VA counselor. To date, almost 4,000 “chatters” have used the service, with several referred to the hotline for immediate care, Kemp reported.

To get the word out about these initiatives, VA launched an advertising campaign in 124 U.S. cities, with public service announcements featuring actor Gary Sinise and TV broadcaster Deborah Norville.

Kemp said she’s received anecdotal evidence that the campaign already is having an impact. She cited one veteran who traveled to Las Vegas with the intent to commit suicide, writing a suicide note and making final preparations to take his life. Then, by chance, he noticed a poster about the VA suicide prevention hotline on a wall at a local bus stop and placed the call that ultimately saved his life.

“He’s now alive and well and telling his story of success,” Kemp said.

hope? change? I hope things change and the war is ended.

[kfson]

In this realm, war will always be a reality. That is why many people are here. It is simply the other side of the coin... same path different direction.

Now the suicide. If I were to place myself in that position, suicide is the result of no other options left. This is the problem of the military. But that is not their path. There should be some other U.S. government department that will accept the soldiers description of his/her problems.

Does any one remember Gulf War Syndrome and how it was handled by the military medical groups? That was appalling.

[David Jamieson]

when you wage war for profit, this is an end result. Not a symptom.

[kfson]

when you wage war for profit, this is an end result. Not a symptom.

All wars are waged for some kind of profit. What's yours?

[Drake]

Yeah... we're really raking in the $$ over there in Afghanistan.

[1bad65]

when you wage war for profit, this is an end result. Not a symptom.

That post really is uncalled for. We are discussing the the problems our soldiers have. I would hope we can agree that we must do everything possible to take of those brave men and women and leave politics out of the discussion.

[Drake]

Funny thing is... a large number of the suicides have been soldiers who haven't even deployed.

[SoCo KungFu]

That article didn't even bother to go one little bit into WHY all these veteran suicides are occurring. You got issues with PTSD, you have families being broken up because one spouse cannot wait for the other to return from duty or spousal infidelity, financial issues (somewhere around 1/3rd of documented US homeless are veterans), lack of career stability after military (for example, I was a medic. I can't get a job in a hospital in this state because they don't have any records of my training. When competing against someone with a state medical assistant certification for a job, I'm out of luck). The list goes on.

[David Jamieson]

That post really is uncalled for. We are discussing the the problems our soldiers have. I would hope we can agree that we must do everything possible to take of those brave men and women and leave politics out of the discussion.

The situation is political. To avoid approaching the problem as a holistic and systemic one is an error.

You can't leave out realities because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
You can't say the war is not about profit, it is. It's about huge budgets that fund the military industrial complexes which include thousands of businesses and thousands of jobs that are dependent on a war happening.

No war, no jobs for so many, particularly in America.
If jobs are a political topic, then so to is the war and if you don't think war is for profit, then I suggest you take a few quick civics courses. :rolleyes:

Gimme a break with the sentimental patriotic crap and denial in other words.

In about a month, your country, mine and the others from the G7 who started this mess will be sitting down with the Taliban in Afghanistan and start a way of folding them into the power structure there.

After that, who knows? I guess we'll leave soldiers there to protect our interests in the Gas pipeline that will take precious commodities for sale to the west, same as how the oil fields are all guarded and controlled by these foreign forces.

So, don't be stupid and naive.

The suicides are a huge problem. You want to fish or cut bait? The more you deflect from these problems that will only grow the further down. What do you think the suicide rate is for Canadians over there? By the way, Canadians have been in the worst areas in combat roles from the beginning and have done some of the most difficult fighting.

And yet, you don't see these kinds of numbers proportionately. So what is it that is broken here? And how is it that people are so tolerant of this and comfortable looking for someone to blame or shrugging the shoulders and looking for someone else to deal with it.

[David Jamieson]

and....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/kunglek/kabul_1970_then_now_2010.jpg

This is just sad.

[kfson]

and....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/kunglek/kabul_1970_then_now_2010.jpg

This is just sad.

As is this...
http://newsrealblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/twin-towers1.jpg

Oh, but we deserved it.



.

[1bad65]

The situation is political. To avoid approaching the problem as a holistic and systemic one is an error.

You can't leave out realities because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
You can't say the war is not about profit, it is. It's about huge budgets that fund the military industrial complexes which include thousands of businesses and thousands of jobs that are dependent on a war happening.

But as Drake pointed out, a large number of the suicides are people who have not even been deployed. So stop. If you want to discuss the war in political terms, start a new thread. This one is not about the reasons for the war being fought.

[kfson]

http://pushpull.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/arte.jpg

[David Jamieson]

As is this...
http://newsrealblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/twin-towers1.jpg

Oh, but we deserved it.



.

Uh, what has one got to do with the other? Care to elaborate on what you think is the causality for the war and then by all means justify it for us.

Otherwise, this is the most remarkably ignorant and uninformed comment you have made so far.

[David Jamieson]

But as Drake pointed out, a large number of the suicides are people who have not even been deployed. So stop. If you want to discuss the war in political terms, start a new thread. This one is not about the reasons for the war being fought.

apologetic crap.

There are huge amounts of suicides. Many of which, a huge amount of which are coming from those people who have been deployed.

It has to be talked about Holistically and it has to be approached honestly in order to discuss it. You can't leave out the failures of the us military, it's government and it's people when we are discussing the current wars of occupation in which the USA is involved.

the ignorance is really still high as is glaringly illustrated by kfson and his correlation of 9/11 to the situation in Afghanistan or possibly even Iraq. There are still a lot of Americans who believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and even some who think the country of Afghanistan had something to do with it.

the truth is quite different though.

perhaps upon realizing the truth, these soldiers are deciding it is not worth fighting for a country under that pretext and so they decide to suicide themselves?

[1bad65]

There are huge amounts of suicides. Many of which, a huge amount of which are coming from those people who have been deployed.

Source that. Drake pointed out that a large number are guys who have not deployed. Lets see your numbers.


perhaps upon realizing the truth, these soldiers are deciding it is not worth fighting for a country under that pretext and so they decide to suicide themselves?

Source that too. And to show a correlation, those suicides would have to be guys who were already serving in the military before 9/11, but comitted suicide after the wars began. And also, since you said they were fighting, these would have to be suicides of people who actually fought over there.

[MasterKiller]

With 102 confirmed suicides among active-duty and activated reserve-component Soldiers, 2006 had the highest number of cases since 1990. To date, 89 suicide deaths were confirmed in 2007 and 32 cases are still pending.

Suicide attempts have also climbed exponentially since the Army began tracking them in 2002, rising from 350 to approximately 2,100 last year, although some non-suicidal self-injuries and a new electronic medical records system may account for part of the increase, said Col. Elspeth C. Richie, psychiatry consultant to the Army's surgeon general.

The majority of 2006 suicides took place among Soldiers in the United States. Seventy-two had either never deployed or been back from theater for over a year, eight had been back from deployment for less than a year, 27 occurred in Iraq and three in Afghanistan.

The vast majority, Richie said, occur among young, enlisted males aged 18-24, but there has been a rising number among older Soldiers, and in 2006 the Army saw the highest number ever among females: 11. Most, 71 percent, involved firearms.

According to Richie, the Army is closely watching for any correlation between the length and number of deployments and the number of suicides, but the most common cause of suicide is strained relationships. While repeated deployments and post traumatic stress disorder certainly add stress to relationships, she said, it's unusual for them to be the direct cause of a suicide.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/01/31/7222-army-responds-to-rising-suicide-rates/

[1bad65]

The majority of 2006 suicides took place among Soldiers in the United States. Seventy-two had either never deployed or been back from theater for over a year, eight had been back from deployment for less than a year, 27 occurred in Iraq and three in Afghanistan.

According to Richie, the Army is closely watching for any correlation between the length and number of deployments and the number of suicides, but the most common cause of suicide is strained relationships. While repeated deployments and post traumatic stress disorder certainly add stress to relationships, she said, it's unusual for them to be the direct cause of a suicide.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/01/31/7222-army-responds-to-rising-suicide-rates/

Thank you. This is very good, and relevant, information.

See how well the discussion goes when people keep it on topic. ;)

[David Jamieson]

Thank you. This is very good, and relevant, information.

See how well the discussion goes when people keep it on topic. ;)

so, what's straining those relationships?
do you think those relationships would be strained if the situation had been dealt with differently as opposed to say: unilaterally declaring war and propping up a vague war on terror?

I know you have difficulty dealing with the reality of the war and I can appreciate your embarrassment about these kinds of things, but, "strained relationships" is a factor in some of the cases.

If all you want to talk about is those strain relationships out of context to the big picture, that's fine. But that's a real kindergarten way of going about it.

[1bad65]

I know you have difficulty dealing with the reality of the war and I can appreciate your embarrassment about these kinds of things, but, "strained relationships" is a factor in some of the cases.

I was raised by a disabled Vietnam veteran. So STFU about stuff you know nothing about.

[1bad65]

so, what's straining those relationships?

Well, it's darn sure not the war as you keep saying it is. MK's sourced post proved you wrong on that one.

You can keep blaming the war/Bush/oil/etc, but no matter how many times you say it, the facts do not agree with you.

[mawali]

There are alot of problems involved in this mess!

1. The military says that there are no problems in meeting enlistment/re-enlistment quotas but in the present theatre guys are rotated 2x and greater because recruitment has fell off considerably. There is no one to take up the slack.

2. When guys compalin about battlefield stress, they are considered punks even though there are guideline in place to mediate/mitigate problems. Left unsolved, the stress become 'hardened' and manifest in various degrees of PTSD. When they try to get help on leaving service, they are often told that since they was no presentation of it when they were 'in-service', they do not have PTSD so they suffer until someone gets hurt. No resolution! Just another dead serviceman who went crazy! Those are comments I have seen or I have heard. Sad but true.

3. Repeated rotation take a toll and in the end someone will pay! Speaking truth to the problems often leads to more problems for the individual so it makes sense (in the moment) to just keep quiet and suffer. Sad but this is a part of the military that speaks with a forked tongue. Things are getting better but more effort will go a long way in helping the veterans come home safely.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reading between the lines it seems to be that American soldiers are killing themselves because their wives/girlfriends are wh0res when they are away.
Nice.

[Drake]

Reading between the lines it seems to be that American soldiers are killing themselves because their wives/girlfriends are wh0res when they are away.
Nice.

Yep.. basically

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep.. basically

Maybe they should adopt a more spartan outlook, LOL !

[Lucas]

Reading between the lines it seems to be that American soldiers are killing themselves because their wives/girlfriends are wh0res when they are away.
Nice.

b!tches and h0es aint no reason to let go.

people who suicide because of a relationship probably werent ready for war, you know if their mental fortitude and endurance cant handle an american chick....well.....

[David Jamieson]

I was raised by a disabled Vietnam veteran. So STFU about stuff you know nothing about.

boo effin hoo, gfy why don't you, if you can't discuss without degradation.

[kfson]

My father was a Viet Nam vet. When he came home, his next assignment was the Pentagon. We lived off base in a neighborhood of predominantly military people who's husband's/father's also just came back from Viet Nam. There was alot of stress in that neighborhood... alot of irrational actions and motivations.

My father became withdrawn and distant from the family after Viet Nam.
I'm pretty sure, I know, my parent's marriage was also stressed, but I don't know to what extent. There were alot of other issues... all arising after Viet Nam. It wasn't until he was a couple years into his Parkinson's Disease did he start to return to the man he was before Viet Nam.

[1bad65]

Yep.. basically

Yeah, right.

What experience do you have? I'm sure it pales in comparison with David's experience. ;)

[1bad65]

My father was a Viet Nam vet. When he came home, his next assignment was the Pentagon. We lived off base in a neighborhood of predominantly military people who's husband's/father's also just came back from Viet Nam. There was alot of stress in that neighborhood... alot of irrational actions and motivations.

My father became withdrawn and distant from the family after Viet Nam.
I'm pretty sure, I know, my parent's marriage was also stressed, but I don't know to what extent. There were alot of other issues... all arising after Viet Nam. It wasn't until he was a couple years into his Parkinson's Disease did he start to return to the man he was before Viet Nam.

It's rough. People who knew my dad before say he was never the same. But I admire the fact he came back, got a job, raised his family, sent me to college, etc.

[1bad65]

boo effin hoo, gfy why don't you, if you can't discuss without degradation.

I wouldn't get upset if you weren't telling me what life experiences I do or do not have without asking me.

[SoCo KungFu]

b!tches and h0es aint no reason to let go.

people who suicide because of a relationship probably werent ready for war, you know if their mental fortitude and endurance cant handle an american chick....well.....

Everybody has something they hold onto in order to get through the ordeals of war. Its not wrong for that something to be those you love. One of the hardest things on a guy is to be stuck in some craphole in the middle of nowhere for a year and a half and the only letter he got from his wife is the one she returned his wedding ring.

[Drake]

Everybody has something they hold onto in order to get through the ordeals of war. Its not wrong for that something to be those you love. One of the hardest things on a guy is to be stuck in some craphole in the middle of nowhere for a year and a half and the only letter he got from his wife is the one she returned his wedding ring.

That's the thing. I've been through literally hundreds of hours of suicide prevention training, and have seen or heard a number of them over years. For example, we lost a guy last year. Senior NCO, great soldier. I talked to him every day and he was always upbeat and cheerful. Well, what we DIDN'T know was that he was having marital issues, and he had kids and a brand new house. It was too much for him. People who say the wars are causing this usually have their own agenda. There are a lot of reasons why these suicides occur, and to use it for your own antiwar agenda is sickand selfish

[Hardwork108]

Yeah... we're really raking in the $$ over there in Afghanistan.

Let me see.....,

Securing territory for the gas pipe line?

Creating a strategic presence in close proximity to Russia, to perhaps steal something from them in the future?

Creating possible positions for military actions from the eastern flank on OIL RICH Iran?

OR...

The US controlling the biggest heroin (poppy) plantations on the planet?

Isn't it interesting that since the US invaded Afghanistan, not only they have not stopped the heroin trade but apparently, the poppy fields have had a record crop a couple of years ago. Isn't it interesting that innocent young American men and women are fighting and dying for a country whose establishment is involved in the drugs trade?

I mean, look at he US involvement here in Colombia. Since the 1950s I believe, but the drug trade seems to be increasing as the years go by. Why?, because the so called "War on Drugs" is for US and Western public consumption, and nothing else.

The Western intellignce agencies have been involved in the drugs trade for more than a century. I mean why wouldn't they? Isn't openly and legally producing and selling arms on the international market as bad, if not worse than selling drugs? Not to mention invading sovereign countries and committing mass murder on false pretences, to steal their natural resources!

I really wish that some you guys would WAKE UP to the real world and stop living in a John Wayne (and I like his films) movie reality!!!!!

[Drake]

Or maybe you're just wildly speculating? Sure does sound like it. And we've discussed your abandoned pipeline project months ago. Stay with the times if you want to be a good conspiracy theorist. Keep trying, psycho.

[Hardwork108]

Or maybe you're just wildly speculating?
Speculating? LOL

Let's look at it again.

Planned Afghan gas pipe line postponed because of "unfriendly" Taliban. US invades Afghanistan to "get Bin Ladin" (we are still waiting...) and of course, the good old, "to free" the Afghan people, by liberating them from their earthly bodies, I suppose?

We heard that the Taliban were involved in the poppy plantations and heroin trafficking. The US (and allies) invade. What happens to the drugs plantations/trade? IT IMPROVES! LOL

The US and its other "Democratic" (what a laugh) allies are itching to invade Iran and liberate them from their huge oil reserves and of the murderous leadership which they themselves installed in the late 1970's. Now, they have military forces in the Eastern flanks of Iran (as well as in the Persian Gulf and Iraq.



Sure does sound like it. And we've discussed your abandoned pipeline project months ago. Stay with the times if you want to be a good conspiracy theorist. Keep trying, psycho.

The pipeline was not "abandoned" when the invasion took place. If it is postponed then that may have to do more with the instability in that region than anything else. However, not to worry, because when the US and its other "Democratic" (LOL!) and freedom loving (LOL!) allies liberate the other half of the Afghan population from their earthly bodies, then I am sure that the gas pipeling project will re-start again.:rolleyes:


I must say, this was a very weak comeback, even for you, but then, intellectually speaking, you have no where to go, do you?

[Dragonzbane76]

you have it all figured out don't you. You have all the answers and more. lol

I can see you in your basement, picking boogers outta your nose, flicking them onto the wall, mummbling about aliens and searching for you tin foil hat.
Screaming up the stairs, "Mom, I need another redbull and a bag of cheetos" Golem like, retoric about your precious and the wrongs the world has done you. haha

your such a douchbag...Here's to you Mr. douch.

[Drake]

Look up "speculation" and then get back to me.