Amazing catch wrestling vid

[Ultimatewingchun]

This vid is from 1930...and in it, 1924 Silver Medalist Nat Pendelton really shows some skills.

The vid is 8:30 long...and in the first part he's boxing with someone...but then at around 3:40 in the vid things start to get really interesting as he takes on a boxer as he just wrestles...and then the last sequence is an out-and-out catch wrestling match with someone who's un-named.

We're talking some very interesting stuff here: covering up while coming in on a puncher into single leg takedowns with sweeps...sliding leg-on-leg takedowns...arm bar submissions...top wristlock submissions...double wristlock submissions...and double wristlocks into roll-over takedowns and then into a headscissors...front headlocks and escapes...side headlock takedowns...Frank Gotch-like toehold submisisons...double arm scissors...some very skillful bridging, escapes, roll outs, and reversals, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVsoQuxD0Ac

[Sardinkahnikov]

Wow, so St. Helio didn't, like, totally invent groundfighting?:eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Noooooooo.

Nooooooooo.

Mitsuyo Maeda is the man who taught jiu jitsu/judo to Helio and his brother...and Maeda was one of Jigoro Kano's best students.

And the only two matches Maeda ever lost was in Europe while he was wrestling under the name Count Koma...both losses were to catch wrestlers...who he then spent some time training with...

before he went to Brazil in 1916.

To be completely fair, though...there was some cross-training going on. For example, what we call today the "armbar"...was referred to by American and British catch wrestlers back in the day as the "Japanese armbar".

[Sardinkahnikov]

Noooooooo.

Nooooooooo.

Mitsuyo Maeda is the man who taught jiu jitsu/judo to Helio and his brother...and Maeda was one of Jigoro Kano's best students.

And the only two matches Maeda ever lost was in Europe while he was wrestling under the name Count Koma...both losses were to catch wrestlers...who he then spent some time training with...

before he went to Brazil in 1916.

To be completely fair, though...there was some cross-training going on. For example, what we call today the "armbar"...was referred to by American and British catch wrestlers back in the day as the "Japanese armbar".

Hah, chill dude, I was just being sarcastic.;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

I know you were...:D

My remarks were meant for those people who might still think that catch isn't real, or that it isn't effective.

[LSWCTN1]

And the only two matches Maeda ever lost was in Europe while he was wrestling under the name Count Koma...both losses were to catch wrestlers...who he then spent some time training with...


incorrect...

Count Koma lost numorous times, and in REGIONAL shows too...

maybe they were 'worked' (the downfall of UK wrestling) but he did lose nontheless.

catch wrestling is a conglomeration of UK regional wrestling, even more so nowadays. One thing i have always wanted to know is why Helio never challenged any of the world title contenders, was it a time scale thing or was it a genuine knowledge of their skill.

i KNOW he challenged Kimura but kimura was a Japanese champion. the catch wrestlers of the age were WORLD champions.

it brings me to a point i make frequently about our art Victor; like attracts like.

so, that means that if a group of succesfull fighters in Brazil (the Gracies) do well then they are going to attract like minded individuals... ie fighters. thus, the ART will then flourish. but it doesnt mean that the other ARTS are not good or valid

[monji112000]

I know you were...:D

My remarks were meant for those people who might still think that catch isn't real, or that it isn't effective.

Catch doesn't really exist in a manner of speaking, its a dead folk style of wrestling (mostly).

The major practitioners do not participate on any form of competition, excluding one person I have heard of (Josh Barnett). Even with the CSW crowd a large part of the system is mixed with BJJ (don't confuse it with Gracie JJ). Eric is a ranged in BJJ. The Best "catch" guys are people who have taken other folk wrestling (namely "American" or western wrestling (some form of "American wrestling" ). I know its still popular in Japan, but again its been mixed with what people call today call wrestling. Most of Catch is found in BJJ and Judo. What isn't normally consists of neck cranks, and other illegal and less effective techniques. Anything worth while is quickly added to modern grappling, and normally isn't just "catch" anymore. Most people who train BJJ are willing to cross train, and learn a new trick. The reality is catch really doesn't exist anymore with modern grappling. Sorry :D You ever actually compete with your catch wrestling? or is competition not allowed because the techniques too dangerous for competition? :D

I actually really like training with people who say they do catch, something show me some cool stuff. BUT normally they don't exclusively do catch, because again it doesn't exist as a separate:rolleyes: style.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very good instructional/demo clip.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's not dead, monji...

On the contrary, it's making a resurgence the likes of which haven't really been seen openly for many, many decades.

And no, the best catch guys are catch guys.

That doesn't mean that they haven't learned how to work against the guard - or incorporated some guard work into their own game when on the bottom. But they are catch guys.

Go to youtube and put in the name: Billy Robinson, for example.

[monji112000]

It's not dead, monji...

On the contrary, it's making a resurgence the likes of which haven't really been seen openly for many, many decades.

And no, the best catch guys are catch guys.

That doesn't mean that they haven't learned how to work against the guard - or incorporated some guard work into their own game when on the bottom. But they are catch guys.

Go to youtube and put in the name: Billy Robinson, for example.
ah ok.. so billy robinson competes currently? hmm no guess not..

Please let me know any top level grapplers even in mid level.. someone who steadily competes using just Catch that does already have a deep background in another grappling art.

I have visited and trained at a few diff places that say they are catch.. they normally are the CSW or the Tony Cechine type.. I like the CSW people but thats really a mixture of a few different styles.. Tony doesn't compete, never did, never will.. Erik had tested his stuff, and I fully respect him. Erik trains with a wide variety of people, and has a very open mind. He is ranked BJJ, he trains with guys like Rigan Machado, and other styles that include some catch influences.

Outside of CSW I don't see anything.. please give me some examples, and show me how I'm wrong. I'm more than interested in learned something new and changing me mind.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"ah ok.. so billy robinson competes currently? hmm no guess not." (monji)
..........................

***Ah, gee...last I heard the UFC turned him down on account of the fact that he's now in his 70's...

but perhaps you've heard of a guy named Kazushi Sakuraba?

Or how about a fellow named Josh Barnett?

They have both trained with Billy Robinson precisely because they wanted to learn CATCH.

And catch as catch can wrestling is CLEARLY recognizable as their respective grappling styles.

[Merryprankster]

I know you feel strongly about this, but it's all just such crap.

Grappling is grappling is grappling. Rule sets and uniforms define "style."

Good grappling = good grappling regardless of what name you give it.

Superior, doesn't work, does work. All bull****. There's nothing magical or special or better about any of it.

There's only good grappling, and bad grappling.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You mean wrestling is wrestling, right? :D

[Merryprankster]

You mean wrestling is wrestling, right?

In the generic sense, yes :-)

[Ultimatewingchun]

So when BJJ guys pulled off some great guard work, for example, back in the early UFC days...

you would have said, that was great "BJJ", right?

But when someone talks of certain sweet "cacc" moves that might be pulled off....the labeling is now "crap", right???!!!

That's cute. :D

[Frost]

It's not dead, monji...

On the contrary, it's making a resurgence the likes of which haven't really been seen openly for many, many decades.

And no, the best catch guys are catch guys.

That doesn't mean that they haven't learned how to work against the guard - or incorporated some guard work into their own game when on the bottom. But they are catch guys.

Go to youtube and put in the name: Billy Robinson, for example.

Sak was a free style wrestler and judo guy before starting catch, Josh's main teacher was a BJJ blackbelt, so thats what you consider strict catch is it?

And we are still waiting for a list of strict catch guys who have competed, in this resurgence of yours they must be all over the place and simple to name.....

[lkfmdc]

Playing devil's advocate, but what is "strict" BJJ? What the Gracie family does is a mixture of old school judo, wrestling and sambo (to state the least). Certainly BJJ has been open to incorporating elements of other things if they work

Sak's background is definitely wrestling (free style), but free style was originally a form of catch as catch can... according to the guys at LA Jiu Jitsu (bas rutten and the gang), when Sak was in the US around the early days of pride he had NO guard game at all. Officially he lists his style as "UWF" which if you know what that means....

Barnett loves to sell the pro wrestling gimmick, personally he and I have disagreed in this area, and yeah, working with Paulson he has been exposed to A LOT of BJJ, but his game is indeed influenced by wrestling / catch

Today and especially in MMA, there is nothign "pure"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Today and especially in MMA, there is nothign "pure"

Was there ever bro?

[Faruq]

Was what "Judo" Gene LaBelle did catch wrestling? I mean it sure doesn't look like just plain Judo.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sak was a free style wrestler and judo guy before starting catch, Josh's main teacher was a BJJ blackbelt, so thats what you consider strict catch is it?

And we are still waiting for a list of strict catch guys who have competed, in this resurgence of yours they must be all over the place and simple to name.....

***AND THIS is a very fast-and-loose rendition of the facts. Sakuraba had some jiu jitsu training, alright....but his MAIN training was in cacc - for he ALWAYS referred to himself as a WRESTLER; in addition, his cacc training first started with Takada, and then with Billy Robinson. Furthermore, his style of "grappling" is unmistakably catch - the same as Royce Gracie's style could be said to be unmistakably BJJ.

And ditto for Josh Barnett - who will be the first to tell you that he's a catch wrestler, that what he's taken from Erik Paulson was MAINLY the cacc that Erik Paulson showed him...and that his style also represents MAINLY what he picked up from studying the training vids of Tony Cecchine - and what he learned directly from Billy Robinson.

Enough bull5hit about guys like Sakuraba and Barnett. That stuff just doesn't fly anymore.

[Frost]

Playing devil's advocate, but what is "strict" BJJ? What the Gracie family does is a mixture of old school judo, wrestling and sambo (to state the least). Certainly BJJ has been open to incorporating elements of other things if they work

Sak's background is definitely wrestling (free style), but free style was originally a form of catch as catch can... according to the guys at LA Jiu Jitsu (bas rutten and the gang), when Sak was in the US around the early days of pride he had NO guard game at all. Officially he lists his style as "UWF" which if you know what that means....

Barnett loves to sell the pro wrestling gimmick, personally he and I have disagreed in this area, and yeah, working with Paulson he has been exposed to A LOT of BJJ, but his game is indeed influenced by wrestling / catch

Today and especially in MMA, there is nothign "pure"

there may or may not be strict BJJ, but there are guys who have trained purely in a BJJ school under guys who are only BJJ blackbelts and have competed and done well, has any ctach guy actually done this?

As someone said its all grappling but claiming something is special, unique or going to be the next great thing when only a handful of people trained in it have done well and most of them have trained in another art to make what they do work is b*ll****

[monji112000]

Playing devil's advocate, but what is "strict" BJJ? What the Gracie family does is a mixture of old school judo, wrestling and sambo (to state the least). Certainly BJJ has been open to incorporating elements of other things if they work

Sak's background is definitely wrestling (free style), but free style was originally a form of catch as catch can... according to the guys at LA Jiu Jitsu (bas rutten and the gang), when Sak was in the US around the early days of pride he had NO guard game at all. Officially he lists his style as "UWF" which if you know what that means....

Barnett loves to sell the pro wrestling gimmick, personally he and I have disagreed in this area, and yeah, working with Paulson he has been exposed to A LOT of BJJ, but his game is indeed influenced by wrestling / catch

Today and especially in MMA, there is nothign "pure"

That was my counter in my head (me playing devils advocate to myself) , and why I didn't continue the argument.

Erik and Josh are CSW and Josh more recently seems to say CSW more than catch. The fact is Catch alone covers very little (in its original form)..

That being said Helio Gracies original "BJJ" was very limited in my not so humble experience. BJJ has evolved, and thats why you have people training with a wide variety of other styles and bringing that in.. and competing in high levels.

USJA will be doing allot of BJJ and No Gi in the future and I see that as a major direction. Pretty much majority of people are interested in getting better (no matter the flag the technique flys under). Sometimes egos flare up when you visit the wrong place but for example.. my teacher trained in a Judo gym in Brazil and I know for a fact MANY brazilians doing BJJ do that also..

Does that mean they all have great judo? nope, but at min they are experiencing new things and competing. Thats what Josh is doing also, and I respect him for it.

The fact is that catch people mostly live in a padded room, and refuse to compete. (not CSW people). They claim that the technique will kill, destroy, and won't work in competition.

the other fact is that the best grapplers compete, and even crapy ones do too (myself in that second category).. so I do love the opinion from the corner that doesn't really train, and doesn't compete.

Catch is dead wake up, you need to mix it other styles to really be a rounded grappler. Thats why many BJJ fighters train Judo or wrestling or come from a wrestling background.

enough "bull5hit" about the only two guys in the world that come from a "catch". I love catch, but you need to mix it up inorder to be relevant. The people I meet that have good skills that claim to be catch are nothing more than great wrestlers from high school or college that learn a few submissions (all of which I see in modern BJJ)..
great you could call yourself a BJJ fighter too.. its really semantics that mean nothing.

thats all I have to say about that, because I have to spend some time on the mat . I unlike some groups of people I compete and I"m trying not to look too stupid Saturday at NAGA.

as a point I'm more impressed with some of the American Sambo stuff than the catch stuff. They have better leg locks, and have all the "american" wrestling, mixing judo and crazy judo variations..
Sambo is some nasty stuff. If I had to choose two or three styles to train on a normal basis it would be BJJ, and Sambo/Judo. The Sambo guys have some nice no gi variations too.

[lkfmdc]

there may or may not be strict BJJ, but there are guys who have trained purely in a BJJ school under guys who are only BJJ blackbelts and have competed and done well, has any ctach guy actually done this?



Sak's background is free style, which is a direct descendent of catch as catch can, he then trained "UWF" style which is basicly Muay Thai and catch wrestling (via Gotch)... I'd say he "done well" in his MMA career :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's not just two guys in the world doing cacc...it's two so far who've competed in mma with it - who look upon themselves as catch wrestlers.....(along with hybrid catch guys like Erik Paulson and Matt Hume).

And now Randy Couture is trying his hand at it.

And BJJ black belt/mma guy Roli Delgado is now training in cacc with Billy Robinson on a weekly basis down in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Just keep watching.

[Frost]

There's not just two guys in the world doing cacc...it's two so far who've competed in mma with it - who look upon themselves as catch wrestlers.....(along with hybrid catch guys like Erik Paulson and Matt Hume).

And now Randy Couture is trying his hand at it.

And BJJ black belt/mma guy Roli Delgado is now training in cacc with Billy Robinson on a weekly basis down in Memphis, Tennessee.

Just keep watching.

so guys with grappling expereince are adding some bits to their game, what a surprise ;)again where are the guys only trained in catch?

[Frost]

Sak's background is free style, which is a direct descendent of catch as catch can, he then trained "UWF" style which is basicly Muay Thai and catch wrestling (via Gotch)... I'd say he "done well" in his MMA career :D

In the same way can we argue that guys trained in BJJ and judo are strict judo guys since BJJ is a direct descendent of judo?:D

I was thinking of strict catch guys without a freestyle back ground, like takada :)

[goju]

there may or may not be strict BJJ, but there are guys who have trained purely in a BJJ school under guys who are only BJJ blackbelts and have competed and done well, has any ctach guy actually done this?

were all their training partners purely bjj guys as well?

remember when i noted fedor doesnt do bjj you claimed he trained with people who do to make it seem like this is how he manages to do with out it

by that logic if these "pure"bjj guys are training with guys who know other gappling arts than they arent pure bjj guys because they are picking up some non bjj stuff in theory

[Frost]

were all their training partners purely bjj guys as well?

remember when i noted fedor doesnt do bjj you claimed he trained with people who do to make it seem like this is how he manages to do with out it

by that logic if these "pure"bjj guys are training with guys who know other gappling arts than they arent pure bjj guys because they are picking up some non bjj stuff in theory

actually i never said anything about pure BJJ, what i said was these guys have trained purely in a BJJ school, BJJ gys are exposed to lots of things, but being explosed, and having years of training in wrestlling (like Sak) or training under a b
BJJ blackbelt (like Josh) are two different things/ the point hundreds of GJJ guys have done fine in competition when only training in a BJJ class, where are all the catch guys doing the same?

[goju]

hundreds of GJJ guys have done fine in competition when only training in a BJJ class, where are all the catch guys doing the same?

you realize not everyone trains in different arts because they view they have to or must to round out their game dont you?

like myself for example i started off in boxing and i didnt start learning other things like karate or tkd or recently mma for any specific reason. I just did it because it was available to me not because i wanted or felt i had to expand my game..

my attitude with martial arts is if its available take it and with that atitude ive learned different things and it doesnt make me less of a boxer as a result

boxing was fine on its own i just added things because they were there to take

catch wrestling is no different

just because someone trains in something else doesnt mean that catch isnt good enough or cant be used on its own

theres a wide variety of reasons people cross train after all


as far as the gjj guys are concerned if their partners come form different backrounds and bring that into their workouts than they arent doing just bjj even if its rollling or working on techniques yadda yadda yadda

the minute youre practicing on dealing with something out side of your system or exchanging other techniques then youre not just doing your style your stepping out of it

just being strict bjj or any art for that matter would be someone only learning that art and training only with partners who know only bjj and nothing else

and i thinks thats rare most people who are only labeled as bjj guys have usually picked up other things down the road in their training

[Ultimatewingchun]

so guys with grappling expereince are adding some bits to their game, what a surprise ;)again where are the guys only trained in catch?

***YOU have to start somewhere. Like Sak, who had a jiu jitsu and free style wrestling background, went to cacc...and never looked back.

Barnett started with free style wrestling, found Paulson, found cacc...and never looked back.

Now look, before this goes down an all-too-familiar foolish road, jiu jitsu offers a few subs that weren't part of original catch, (ie.- catch wrestlers have always referred to the arm bar as the "Japanese" arm bar)...and some guard work as it was developed by the Gracies in particular have elements that good catch wrestlers of today have picked up on...and some other things...

but to try and give the impression that cacc is merely something that can offer "little bits and pieces" to grapplers is a f u c k i n g joke...and is clearly indicative of an insecure and jealous way of thinking.

Cacc is a real art that offers quite a lot all on its own....quite a lot.

The fact that so many people still have a hard time getting over that, even now (2010) is not my concern.

I couldn't care less.

[Frost]

***YOU have to start somewhere. Like Sak, who had a jiu jitsu and free style wrestling background, went to cacc...and never looked back.

Barnett started with free style wrestling, found Paulson, found cacc...and never looked back.

Now look, before this goes down an all-too-familiar foolish road, jiu jitsu offers a few subs that weren't part of original catch, (ie.- catch wrestlers have always referred to the arm bar as the "Japanese" arm bar)...and some guard work as it was developed by the Gracies in particular have elements that good catch wrestlers of today have picked up on...

but to try and give the impression that cacc is merely something that can offer "little bits and pieces" to grapplers is a f u c k i n g joke...and is clearly indicative of an insecure and jealous way of thinking.

Cacc is a real art that offers quite a lot all on its own....quite a lot.

The fact that so many people still have a hard time getting over that, even now (2010) is not my concern.

I couldn't care less.

insecure and jealous....coming from a catch guy (with all that styles baggage) who has never competed thats rich:)

yes you have to start somewhere, but the fact that no one can put their hand up and say look all i have really trained is catch in a catch school and this is my comp record and its very good speaks volumes about the art. People just do judo and compete well, the same with sambo and BJJ, how come no straight catch guys are out there tearing it up?

its a simple question who are the catch guys doing well in grappling/MMA

[monji112000]

***YOU have to start somewhere. Like Sak, who had a jiu jitsu and free style wrestling background, went to cacc...and never looked back.

Barnett started with free style wrestling, found Paulson, found cacc...and never looked back.

Now look, before this goes down an all-too-familiar foolish road, jiu jitsu offers a few subs that weren't part of original catch, (ie.- catch wrestlers have always referred to the arm bar as the "Japanese" arm bar)...and some guard work as it was developed by the Gracies in particular have elements that good catch wrestlers of today have picked up on...and some other things...

but to try and give the impression that cacc is merely something that can offer "little bits and pieces" to grapplers is a f u c k i n g joke...and is clearly indicative of an insecure and jealous way of thinking.

Cacc is a real art that offers quite a lot all on its own....quite a lot.

The fact that so many people still have a hard time getting over that, even now (2010) is not my concern.

I couldn't care less.


If you are comparing what people called "gracie" JJ to what Josh and Erik are doing then you are off in another la la land. The Term Gracie JJ only exist if you train under a gracie.. then its Gracie JJ.. or Machado JJ or 10th planet JJ.. but BJJ as a whole has evolved allot since Royce gracie first fought in the UFC. You could make the argument that so is "catch" for example CSW. The only issue with that is, really CSW is a mix of several styles not just Catch..

Each area has its own culture and if you believe that BJJ is only about jumping guard, then you are off in la la land. Catch is great, my only issue with them (some) is they closely resemble all the BS aspects of TCM. You have guys that don't have the experience or skill making videos.. and you have people claiming the techniques are too dangerous for randori and competition.

Sak is great and I am a big fan.. but he has his limits. Josh is a character you can't hold on to two guys and say See see look catch is alive and well its making a come back.. The great thing is CSW certified teachers are really everywhere (good and bad).. but again if you believe that the CSW curriculum is catch wow.. you are clearly wrong. I happen to know two certified schools/teachers.

Erik himself is ranked as black belt under Rigan Machado in BJJ.

Randy couture a catch wrestler?? :D if thats the case then he is also a 10thplanet JJ fighter too.

Ultimatewingchun, stick to something you know William Chueng's Wing Chun.

[lkfmdc]

In the same way can we argue that guys trained in BJJ and judo are strict judo guys since BJJ is a direct descendent of judo?:D

I was thinking of strict catch guys without a freestyle back ground, like takada :)

Funaki doesn't have a free style background and also learned "UWF style" and you could argue that he gave Rickson his toughest fight so far (I mean, that we can find, verify and SEE)

I think Funaki (and other Pancrase guys) would have beaten a lot of their contemporary UFC people, I mean Funaki in UFC 1-5 would have made it to the finals

[m1k3]

Catch wrestling as its own entity pretty much ceased to exist in the early to mid 1900's. It evolved into free, folk and pro(show) wrestling. All of them can trace their roots to catch wrestling and pieces of the style continue to live in all of them.

During the mid 1900's there were no regular competitions being held in catch wrestling and no catch wrestling organizations except perhaps in some backwater areas. It was definitely not attracting the top competitors.

What is now being taught as catch is a reconstruction of a style that used to exist based on the fragments that still exist in its descendants, documentation in books and film; and mixed with techniques and strategies from the new sub grappling styles.

However, none of the current high level grappling competitions recognize the most predominant technique for winning a catch match, the pin, as valid. So, even if they call it catch it is not the same without the pin. The strategy changes when laying on your back is an accepted defense. This is why catch is NOT the grappling of the future.


SHORT VERSION:
Catch wrestling without the pin isn't catch wrestling. This is why catch is NOT the grappling of the future.

[t_niehoff]

There's not just two guys in the world doing cacc...it's two so far who've competed in mma with it - who look upon themselves as catch wrestlers.....(along with hybrid catch guys like Erik Paulson and Matt Hume).

And now Randy Couture is trying his hand at it.

And BJJ black belt/mma guy Roli Delgado is now training in cacc with Billy Robinson on a weekly basis down in Memphis, Tennessee.

Just keep watching.

Randy isn't "trying his hand" at catch. His present grappling coach (Neil Melanson) is trained and accredited in Hayastan.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Catch wrestling as its own entity pretty much ceased to exist in the early to mid 1900's. It evolved into free, folk and pro(show) wrestling. All of them can trace their roots to catch wrestling and pieces of the style continue to live in all of them.

During the mid 1900's there were no regular competitions being held in catch wrestling and no catch wrestling organizations except perhaps in some backwater areas. It was definitely not attracting the top competitors.

What is now being taught as catch is a reconstruction of a style that used to exist based on the fragments that still exist in its descendants, documentation in books and film; and mixed with techniques and strategies from the new sub grappling styles.

However, none of the current high level grappling competitions recognize the most predominant technique for winning a catch match, the pin, as valid. So, even if they call it catch it is not the same without the pin. The strategy changes when laying on your back is an accepted defense. This is why catch is NOT the grappling of the future.


SHORT VERSION:
Catch wrestling without the pin isn't catch wrestling. This is why catch is NOT the grappling of the future.

***HORSE5HIT...

Who says that cacc has to have a pin, or else it's not catch???? :rolleyes:

And as for it ending around 1950....nice try to ignore its re-emergence within the last 12 years or so. :cool:

[Knifefighter]

This vid is from 1930...and in it, 1924 Silver Medalist Nat Pendelton really shows some skills.

The vid is 8:30 long...and in the first part he's boxing with someone...but then at around 3:40 in the vid things start to get really interesting as he takes on a boxer as he just wrestles...and then the last sequence is an out-and-out catch wrestling match with someone who's un-named.

We're talking some very interesting stuff here: covering up while coming in on a puncher into single leg takedowns with sweeps...sliding leg-on-leg takedowns...arm bar submissions...top wristlock submissions...double wristlock submissions...and double wristlocks into roll-over takedowns and then into a headscissors...front headlocks and escapes...side headlock takedowns...Frank Gotch-like toehold submisisons...double arm scissors...some very skillful bridging, escapes, roll outs, and reversals, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVsoQuxD0Ac

The most telling thing about this whole thread is Victor thinking that that clip is somehow amazing.

Plus the fact that, since he has never actually grappled against decent grapplers, he has no clue which things in that demo clip are workable and which ones are bs.

[Ultimatewingchun]

As always, the same old seriously insecure bjj guys (and you know who your are) just can't resist coming on any thread that praises cacc wrestling...and try to talk smack.

What the f_ck else is new????!!! :p :cool:

[m1k3]

Victor, I have nothing against catch wrestling. In fact I trained and competed in folkstyle wrestling which is a direct descendant of catch.

All 3 styles that came out of the old catch have one thing in common. Win by pin. Pro wrestling, while being show rather than shoot is the one with the closest rules to cacc and the pin plays a central role there especially from back in the 60's when they at least used to pretend it was real.

BTW, what style of wrestling or grappling have you competed in?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not talking about pro wrestling matches from the 60's...although there were three pro wrestlers from the 60's (Lou Thesz, Karl Gotch, and Billy Robinson)....who were legit shooters...and in fact, the term in cacc is "hooker"...

meaning that they were SUBMISSION EXPERTS....and the word "hook" meant that so-and-so is an expert at hooking in (ie.- catching, and reeling in) a submission hold. Expert at the subs - and expert in WRESTLING in order to set up and get the subs.

And Billy Robinson is the gent who's still alive, and has taught cacc wrestling and hooking to Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett...and is currently living in Little Rock, Arkansas...and teaching at a local mma school...

and one of his current students is Roli Delgado...a bjj blackbelt and pro mma fighter.

[Knifefighter]

Victor, I have nothing against catch wrestling. In fact I trained and competed in folkstyle wrestling which is a direct descendant of catch.

All 3 styles that came out of the old catch have one thing in common. Win by pin. Pro wrestling, while being show rather than shoot is the one with the closest rules to cacc and the pin plays a central role there especially from back in the 60's when they at least used to pretend it was real.

BTW, what style of wrestling or grappling have you competed in?

LOL... he's never stepped outside his little studio to grapple.

[monji112000]

I'm not talking about pro wrestling matches from the 60's...although there were three pro wrestlers from the 60's (Lou Thesz, Karl Gotch, and Billy Robinson)....who were legit shooters...and in fact, the term in cacc is "hooker"...

meaning that they were SUBMISSION EXPERTS....and the word "hook" meant that so-and-so is an expert at hooking in (ie.- catching, and reeling in) a submission hold. Expert at the subs - and expert in WRESTLING in order to set up and get the subs.

And Billy Robinson is the gent who's still alive, and has taught cacc wrestling and hooking to Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett...and is currently living in Memphis and teaching at a local mma school...

and one of his current students is Roli Delgado...a bjj blackbelt and pro mma fighter.
so you are saying you are a hooker? or you study the art of hooking?

:D

Are you just a fan or do you actually train under someone and compete in some type of real competition?

If we are going to start talking about martial arts we are fans of , and that we think are the best.. I think the whole Jedi martial arts skills are great.. probably beat anyone at ADCC or the UFC

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey, guess what? The thread is not about me...it's about cacc wrestling. :cool:

[Ultimatewingchun]

And besides, I just won't get into any prolonged discussion about hookers...my wife could be lurking here and get the wrong idea!!! :eek:

:D

[monji112000]

Hey, guess what? The thread is not about me...it's about cacc wrestling. :cool:

great side stepping action going on here.. is that part of your triangle footwork? :eek::D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again, what's on that vid in the opening post has nothing to do with me....it's all about cacc wrestling. The vid stands on it's own, Sak and Barnett the same thing, ditto for Billy Robinson, Karl Gotch, Lou Thesz...and all the rest of it - it all stands on its own.

Oh and one more thing, you might want to take a look at Gene Lebell's book entitled "TOUGHEST MAN ALIVE"...as 70 something year old Gene has been around the block countless times over the last 60 years...is a legit judo champion...fought and beat a middleweight boxer (Milo Savage) back in the 1960's...and Gene also trained in cacc under the tutelage of guys like Lou Thesz, Karl Gotch, and Vic Christy back in the day...

take a look at what he has to say about catch, about Lou Thesz, about the UFC, the Gracies, etc.

It's a great read for many reasons, the book is.

But here's just one thing he had to say: LOU THESZ is the best submission wrestler/grappler he's ever seen.

[m1k3]

Victor, my point in all this is, without the pin, how is catch any different than any other type of submission grappling? Catch wrestling has always had the pin as a finishing technique in addition to the submissions. A lot of strategy and techniques that make catch unique have to do with avoiding or acquiring a pin.

[Ultimatewingchun]

There are TONS of threads on various forums throughout recent years that can spell out the differences between cacc wrestling and other grappling styles, m1k3.

Aside from anything having to do with shoulder pins.

Been there and done that MANY times.

Go do the research, my friend.

And in the meantime, o n c e....a g a i n....

just check out the wrestling/grappling styles of the fights on youtube with Sakuraba and Barnett.

And if you still think there's really no differences, then LOL.

[Wayfaring]

Actually if you want to see an amazing catch wrestling vid, try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGsVmUVdroU

[Ultimatewingchun]

That was the most boring 5hit I've ever seen. The guy sits down into guard inside of 7 seconds of the start of the match (yeah, try that in the street)....gets to "work" guard forever (no striking allowed, LOL)...and then is ahead on bull5hit bjj "points" when the ref is about to award the match to Barnett for the heel hook...and then the ref gets over-ruled by the bjj chieftains in the room - and gives the match to Barral on points.

What a load of crap. Everything about it: pure crap.

[Knifefighter]

That was the most boring 5hit I've ever seen. The guy sits down into guard inside of 7 seconds of the start of the match (yeah, try that in the street)....gets to "work" guard forever (no striking allowed, LOL)...and then is ahead on bull5hit bjj "points" when the ref is about to award the match to Barnett for the heel hook...and then the ref gets over-ruled by the bjj chieftains in the room - and gives the match to Barral on points.

What a load of crap. Everything about it: pure crap.

It was a GRAPPLING match. Of course there was no striking. It also was a BJJ match. There are no heel-hooks allowed in BJJ tourneys.

Good for Josh for mixing it up in a variety of different environments. Obviously he understands the value in competing in different formats to help one become a better fighter. That's one of the many reasons he is good and you are not.

[goju]

It was a GRAPPLING match. Of course there was no striking. It also was a BJJ match. There are no heel-hooks allowed in BJJ tourneys.

Good for Josh for mixing it up in a variety of different environments. Obviously he understands the value in competing in different formats to help one become a better fighter. That's why he is good and you are not.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/funny-pictures-old-man-cat.jpg

[Ultimatewingchun]

Say what you will, but it was reeeaaaallly boring...

like your posts. :cool:

[Knifefighter]

Say what you will, but it was reeeaaaallly boring...

like your posts. :cool:

I think the same thing about soccer. If I competed in it and understood the technical details, I'm sure I wouldn't find it boring.

[Frost]

I think the same thing about soccer. If I competed in it and understood the technical details, I'm sure I wouldn't find it boring.

trust me you probably would :)

[Frost]

That was the most boring 5hit I've ever seen. The guy sits down into guard inside of 7 seconds of the start of the match (yeah, try that in the street)....gets to "work" guard forever (no striking allowed, LOL)...and then is ahead on bull5hit bjj "points" when the ref is about to award the match to Barnett for the heel hook...and then the ref gets over-ruled by the bjj chieftains in the room - and gives the match to Barral on points.

What a load of crap. Everything about it: pure crap.

it comments like these that make me wonder if you actually do any grappling apart from watching you tube videos...and whether you have ever competed in any type of sporting enviromnet.....:eek:

you play to the rules, which in BJJ makes guard sitting against a bigger, stronger person who might be better at wrestling a good idea.......you don't worry about heel hooks as they are not allowed, thus you use certain passes/moves you would not use if heelhooks were allowed (and its hard tos score with a move thats illegal).

let me guess when you grapple you always do it with strikes to keep it real...ever wondered why your skills generally still suck after all this time?

[m1k3]

Victor, this isn't the wing chun forum so it is about you. You have presented yourself as knowledgeable about grappling and cacc in particular. Now you are being called out on your bonafides by people who are grapplers.

So, what is your background in grappling, who do or did you train with, have you ever competed or are you just a fan boy?

To be fair I will go first. I trained and competed in folk style wrestling in John Harris High School in Harrisburg PA and I currently train at the Daddis Fight Camp in Cherry Hill NJ. http://www.phillymma.com/ I am currently just a hobbyist with no intention of competing at this time.

In a shameless plug for my school I am going to recommend it highly and invite any one in the Philadelphia area to visit one of the schools. Brad is a great instructor and I am confident that you will like it.

Okay Victor, your turn. :rolleyes::D

[monji112000]

That was the most boring 5hit I've ever seen. The guy sits down into guard inside of 7 seconds of the start of the match (yeah, try that in the street)....gets to "work" guard forever (no striking allowed, LOL)...and then is ahead on bull5hit bjj "points" when the ref is about to award the match to Barnett for the heel hook...and then the ref gets over-ruled by the bjj chieftains in the room - and gives the match to Barral on points.

What a load of crap. Everything about it: pure crap.

its funny how someone who doesn't do any type of grappling , can be easily be identified when they try to make a opinion. If a heel hook is somehow going to save you every time ( and is of course going to put you in a "safe" position for "street" fighting) then maybe you need to think about expanding your grappling skills and becoming well rounded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upFTIXL2KKo&feature=PlayList&p=DE5FB405976F56BC&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=10

You put anyone on their back and you will see some type of guard.. I hear Randy likes to play guard allot.

The difference is you guys like Randy and Josh NOW playing guard allot in the gym because they see the benefit of being more well rounding, training with a variety of people and venues.

Once you take away the limiting rules of Judo and other competitions, that force a fighter to do takedowns.. pulling guard becomes a viable option if thats a strong point for you.

In my not so humble opinion it is pretty stupid to never work guard, and only be a "top" game fighter. Its great when you can out wrestle someone, when you are the big strong guy.. but it only takes one time to be humbled for you to see why the guard is a very important position. (and passing guard)

Yah maybe passing the guard should be a topic talked about more than pulling guard..

[sanjuro_ronin]

trust me you probably would :)

Nah, I think Dale would appreciate the strategy behind Football, the various ways to crack open a defense, the various ways to cancell out individual talent as a factor, the various ways an underdog team can hang in there and even win.
Case in point Switzerland over Spain yesterday.

[Frost]

Nah, I think Dale would appreciate the strategy behind Football, the various ways to crack open a defense, the various ways to cancell out individual talent as a factor, the various ways an underdog team can hang in there and even win.
Case in point Switzerland over Spain yesterday.

he might just get p8ssed off at the fact they are using an addidas football no one can control :)

[Frost]

Victor, this isn't the wing chun forum so it is about you. You have presented yourself as knowledgeable about grappling and cacc in particular. Now you are being called out on your bonafides by people who are grapplers.

So, what is your background in grappling, who do or did you train with, have you ever competed or are you just a fan boy?

To be fair I will go first. I trained and competed in folk style wrestling in John Harris High School in Harrisburg PA and I currently train at the Daddis Fight Camp in Cherry Hill NJ. http://www.phillymma.com/ I am currently just a hobbyist with no intention of competing at this time.

In a shameless plug for my school I am going to recommend it highly and invite any one in the Philadelphia area to visit one of the schools. Brad is a great instructor and I am confident that you will like it.

Okay Victor, your turn. :rolleyes::D

lol this should be interesting all the grapplers out there report in so we can see what expereince you have...victors reply should be fun

just to be fair ill go next been training out of leicester shootfighting for the past 7 or 8 years, train both grappling and MMA have competed in grappling a few times over the years but not in MMA.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor, this isn't the wing chun forum so it is about you." (m1k3)
..................................

***THIS IS CRAP.

Cacc wrestling is what this thread is about; and as usual, the bjj nut-huggers who are still
p i s s e d off that catch turned their world upside down in the form of one Kazushi Sakuraba back around 1999-2000-2001...

will say anything in order to avoid the truth about cacc: IT'S REALLY FRIGGIN' GOOD !!!

So ad-hominem away, fellas...because I just don't give a 5hit.

[Frost]

:)
"Victor, this isn't the wing chun forum so it is about you." (m1k3)
..................................

***THIS IS CRAP.

Cacc wrestling is what this thread is about; and as usual, the bjj nut-huggers who are still
p i s s e d off that catch turned their world upside down in the form of one Kazushi Sakuraba back around 1999-2000-2001...

will say anything in order to avoid the truth about cacc: IT'S REALLY FRIGGIN' GOOD !!!

So ad-hominem away, fellas...because I just don't give a 5hit.

translation i can't list where i learned my catch because i can;t remember the name of the videos :)

Lol

[m1k3]

"Victor, this isn't the wing chun forum so it is about you." (m1k3)
..................................

***THIS IS CRAP.

Cacc wrestling is what this thread is about; and as usual, the bjj nut-huggers who are still
p i s s e d off that catch turned their world upside down in the form of one Kazushi Sakuraba back around 1999-2000-2001...

will say anything in order to avoid the truth about cacc: IT'S REALLY FRIGGIN' GOOD !!!

So ad-hominem away, fellas...because I just don't give a 5hit.

Victor, I trained folk as well as bjj and I currently train no-gi because it is basically submission grappling as used for MMA. BJJ, GJJ, Judo, Folk, Greco they're all included.

You are the one with the "linage" issues. All the grapplers I know don't give a rat's a$$ about the origin of a move other than "does it work?", "that's cool, show me how to do that!" and "how would you defend that?".

Now, since you are discussing the superiority of CACC what is your grappling background? I have seen you use this same argument in the WC forum concerning peoples opinions on WC many times. If it is valid there it is valid here.

[Frost]

Victor, I trained folk as well as bjj and I currently train no-gi because it is basically submission grappling as used for MMA. BJJ, GJJ, Judo, Folk, Greco they're all included.

You are the one with the "linage" issues. All the grapplers I know don't give a rat's a$$ about the origin of a move other than "does it work?", "that's cool, show me how to do that!" and "how would you defend that?".

Now, since you are discussing the superiority of CACC what is your grappling background? I have seen you use this same argument in the WC forum concerning peoples opinions on WC many times. If it is valid there it is valid here.

lol stop using common sense with him :o)

same here i train no gi never had a real BJJ gi class in my life (apart from a few seminars)

[m1k3]

lol stop using common sense with him :o)

same here i train no gi never had a real BJJ gi class in my life (apart from a few seminars)

I trained bjj for over a year but I freaking hate gi's and the school I was at had no-gi as well so the switch was easy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I trained bjj for over a year but I freaking hate gi's and the school I was at had no-gi as well so the switch was easy.

Gi's are more real world applicable, unless you spend most of your time on the beach or a nudist resort.
:p

[Frost]

I trained bjj for over a year but I freaking hate gi's and the school I was at had no-gi as well so the switch was easy.

my school is no gi as well, and would never consider itself a BJJ school, but hell give credit where its due nearnly all the stuff we do is BJJ without the gi :)

[Knifefighter]

will say anything in order to avoid the truth about cacc: IT'S REALLY FRIGGIN' GOOD !!!

BJJ, judo, sambo, folkstyle/feestyle/greco wrestling, and sub-grappling are systems that "good" because each of these systems have open competitions.

Until catch, as a system, does the same, it will not be good.

[Knifefighter]

"Victor, this isn't the wing chun forum so it is about you." (m1k3)
..................................

***THIS IS CRAP.

Cacc wrestling is what this thread is about; and as usual, the bjj nut-huggers who are still
p i s s e d off that catch turned their world upside down in the form of one Kazushi Sakuraba back around 1999-2000-2001....

Ummm... if we were ****ed because a supposed catch guy "turned our worlds upside down," shouldn't we be even more ****ed off about SAMBO, since a SAMBO guy has been one of the most dominant players in the history of MMA?

Last time I checked, most of the "BJJ nutriders" had a lot of respect for SAMBO.

[m1k3]

Gi's are more real world applicable, unless you spend most of your time on the beach or a nudist resort.
:p

Yeah but wearing a gi is like wearing a sauna. Also in the real world if I'm comfortable with clinches and hand fighting I'll be able to switch to grabbing clothing a lot easier than someone who doesn't grapple will be able to deal with it.

As T. would say I'm training to fight scrubs, and it works. And I do it by training with people who are good.

[monji112000]

BJJ, judo, sambo, folkstyle/feestyle/greco wrestling, and sub-grappling are systems that "good" because each of these systems have open competitions.

Until catch, as a system, does the same, it will not be good.

I can't agree and stress that enough. I believe at the end of the day allot more acceptance of catch exists, even when people will not say so openly out of respect for any particular style they train. The reality is Catch outside of maybe CSW doesn't have a strong presence in grappling competitions, and doesn't really have a competition venue.

I respect and look for ideas from everyone, but at the end of the day allot of crazy stuff gets taken off the table when you actively try it on a variety of people.

If catch joins of the ranks of Judo, Sambo, BJJ, "wrestling (all styles)", ect.. I'll personally be one of the people looking carefully for ideas..

The largest "catch" organization actively teaches and incorporates BJJ , Judo and Sambo. (CSW) so I wouldn't include it in any catch comparisons. :D

[Merryprankster]

So when BJJ guys pulled off some great guard work, for example, back in the early UFC days...

you would have said, that was great "BJJ", right?

But when someone talks of certain sweet "cacc" moves that might be pulled off....the labeling is now "crap", right???!!!

That's cute. :D

Um, was this directed at me?

I never said anything that justifies this type of response.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's bizarre, Merryprankster.

How in the world could you think that it was directed at you? I don't even remember the last time you and I spoke via posts - it was that long ago. Has to be somewhere around maybe 3-4 years now.

[Merryprankster]

That's bizarre, Merryprankster.

How in the world could you think that it was directed at you? I don't even remember the last time you and I spoke via posts - it was that long ago. Has to be somewhere around maybe 3-4 years now.

No worries. I was confused too.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . I trained and competed in folk style wrestling in John Harris High School in Harrisburg PA and I currently train at the Daddis Fight Camp in Cherry Hill NJ. http://www.phillymma.com/ I am currently just a hobbyist with no intention of competing at this time.

In a shameless plug for my school I am going to recommend it highly and invite any one in the Philadelphia area to visit one of the schools. Brad is a great instructor and I am confident that you will like it. . . . . . . .
I've been looking for a school near me. I think everyone needs to know something about grappling. The more weapons in your arsenal the better. ;)

[Wayfaring]

That was the most boring 5hit I've ever seen. The guy sits down into guard inside of 7 seconds of the start of the match (yeah, try that in the street)....gets to "work" guard forever (no striking allowed, LOL)...and then is ahead on bull5hit bjj "points" when the ref is about to award the match to Barnett for the heel hook...and then the ref gets over-ruled by the bjj chieftains in the room - and gives the match to Barral on points.

What a load of crap. Everything about it: pure crap.

A lot of times skilled people going against each other aren't the most exciting. What was exciting is Josh mixing it up against one of the top BJJ grapplers in the world. Romulo is probably top 5 in his weight class. Josh did a good job attacking lower body with what he had given to him. I counted the match by BJJ rules with Josh up 1 advantage at the end. Yes the overturn was BS. As far as the guard work with no striking allowed, from 50/50 guard, if you take the time to do a lot of striking without the kind of defense you see going on there, you could end up crippled from a heel hook.

[m1k3]

I've been looking for a school near me. I think everyone needs to know something about grappling. The more weapons in your arsenal the better. ;)

Phil, I highly recommend Brad's school. I don't know what your grappling background is but I had several years of bjj and no-gi when I started so I can't speak to the intro program but if its like the rest of the training it will be top quality.

If you do decide to try it out tell them Mike Thomas recommended the school to you. Hope to see you there. If you come a no-gi night I'll be the old guy with the all white fu manchu mustache.

:)

[m1k3]

Pulled from: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57508&page=3


***SO go back to the thread on the mma forum, m1k3, and point out to me what in that vid sucks...!!! Okay?

I say it's a really good vid, and especially so when you consider what year it was made.

Okay, partner ???

If I'm a complete no-nothing about submission wrestling/grappling - and you're a hot shot - and you've got issues with me saying it's an awesome vid...

then there should be things on that vid you need to speak to. See my point?

Like I said, that thread/vid is about cacc wrestling...not me.

So tell me what's on the vid that's junk?

Because if you can't (or won't)...then all this is...is you trying to beat your chest.

Get it?
__________________
Victor Parlati

Victor, I never said the vid sucked, can't say I thought it was amazing either. It was a promo for catch wrestling and looked to me a demo. I thought a lot of the work was staged rather than real.

That's my opinion based on my grappling experience both as someone who trains and as a fan.

Now, why do you think its amazing and what is your experience that you are basing it on?

BTW why do you think I hate catch? That's why I train no-gi, its closer to wrestling which for all intents and purposes is my original martial art. I am far from a BJJ nutrider and rooted for Matt Hughes in his matches against the Gracies. I am also a big fan of Brock and Steve Carwin. I have to admit I am a Frank Mir fan also. Still I lean much more to the wrestling side than the GJJ side.

Now, you refer to yourself as a catch wrestler, all I have done is asked for your background in grappling. I gave you mine and so did Frost, your turn.

This has been a polite response, you don't need to get mad and if you don't want to give it just say so.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Let's just put it this way for now. And this might very well be my last post on this thread if people like yourself (and some others) want to continue down this road, I don't know.

But I'm still GM William Cheung's student. I'm still part of his WWCKF Association; I still have students who I train...who want to attain the Gold Sash Instructor Grade Level 10 (or possibly even beyond that)...in his Association - which means their Level 10 test will be directly with him, and not with me...

and there are people around in his Association who want to point to my getting involved in cacc wrestling as an act of disloyalty.

So I've learned to be careful about talking too much in public about exactly what, where, how, and with whom I many be training in wrestling/grappling.

But what about my interest in boxing, you might ask? Could not that be considered an act of betrayal also?

And my answer to that is this: Since practically all the boxing I do is used in conjunction with the TWC Central Line principles...I think GM Cheung doesn't have (or shouldn't have) much of a problem with that...and so far...I haven't heard a single word of criticism about it coming from him.

Okay, but what about my insistence that boxing is needed to cover the longer ranges? Isn't that idea something that the GM wouldn't be too keen on?

Yeah, but since more-and-more TWC guys are getting involved in tournament fighting with K1 type rules...I believe it's inevitable that what I've been saying will be proven true...real up close and personal like.

And as for who I've learned some boxing from: it's one of my long time students...who trained in boxing with his cousin...said cousin being a former Golden Gloves fighter...and my student has never stopped picking up more-and-more boxing through the years from his cousin...so he's waaay better now than he was when he first walked through my door in 1991...and still comes to my classes...

so by now he's got real good TWC skills and boxing....the perfect guy, imo...to be doing this with.

Enough said for now.

[Frost]

Pulled from: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57508&page=3



Victor, I never said the vid sucked, can't say I thought it was amazing either. It was a promo for catch wrestling and looked to me a demo. I thought a lot of the work was staged rather than real.

That's my opinion based on my grappling experience both as someone who trains and as a fan.

Now, why do you think its amazing and what is your experience that you are basing it on?

BTW why do you think I hate catch? That's why I train no-gi, its closer to wrestling which for all intents and purposes is my original martial art. I am far from a BJJ nutrider and rooted for Matt Hughes in his matches against the Gracies. I am also a big fan of Brock and Steve Carwin. I have to admit I am a Frank Mir fan also. Still I lean much more to the wrestling side than the GJJ side.

Now, you refer to yourself as a catch wrestler, all I have done is asked for your background in grappling. I gave you mine and so did Frost, your turn.

This has been a polite response, you don't need to get mad and if you don't want to give it just say so.

He won’t give one because he hasn't really trained with anyone; it’s not about being seen as disloyal it’s about not having it.

if my memory is good here is what he has said about his catch over the years: trained it for a few years in his 60's, watched tapes from tony C and maybe done a seminar with him (not sure on that. If he really has a grappling background but does not want to say all he has to do is PM you, but anyone who has been around videotaped trained fighters can spot the tell signs a mile off:
1) Belief that what they train is special and unique and better than what most train...check
2) Inability to spot good grappling in clips posted and instead talks about how the guard is crap for the streets...check
3) Only rolls with strikes to keep it real...check
4) Bitter dislike of the Gracie’s for no real reason...check
5) Extreme nut riding of a few fighters whilst ignoring all those from his chosen style that got smashed...check
6) Talks about how this and that technique will destroy the guard without having any proof to back it up apart from his rabid beliefs...check
7) Total belief in everything he sees on his favourite tapes will work...like the Boston crab as a way to beat the guard...check

6)

[m1k3]

He won’t give one because he hasn't really trained with anyone; it’s not about being seen as disloyal it’s about not having it.

if my memory is good here is what he has said about his catch over the years: trained it for a few years in his 60's, watched tapes from tony C and maybe done a seminar with him (not sure on that. If he really has a grappling background but does not want to say all he has to do is PM you, but anyone who has been around videotaped trained fighters can spot the tell signs a mile off:
1) Belief that what they train is special and unique and better than what most train...check
2) Inability to spot good grappling in clips posted and instead talks about how the guard is crap for the streets...check
3) Only rolls with strikes to keep it real...check
4) Bitter dislike of the Gracie’s for no real reason...check
5) Extreme nut riding of a few fighters whilst ignoring all those from his chosen style that got smashed...check
6) Talks about how this and that technique will destroy the guard without having any proof to back it up apart from his rabid beliefs...check
7) Total belief in everything he sees on his favourite tapes will work...like the Boston crab as a way to beat the guard...check

6)

Frost, I read his response last night and my jaw dropped.:confused: I never expected that sort of long rambling reply. Too be honest I had no idea what to say. I do believe he has descended into the realm of HardWork108. :eek:

My job here is done. :D

[Frost]

Frost, I read his response last night and my jaw dropped.:confused: I never expected that sort of long rambling reply. Too be honest I had no idea what to say. I do believe he has descended into the realm of HardWork108. :eek:

My job here is done. :D

well if is grappling is learned is a similar way to his boxing (from his students lol) then we should take his views with a pinch of salt:)

on a side note learning boxing from his students does explain his videos about how to deal with hooks....:eek:

[Ultimatewingchun]

"My job here is done."
............................

***ONE can only hope.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"He won’t give one because he hasn't really trained with anyone; it’s not about being seen as disloyal it’s about not having it."
.........................

***BULL5HIT. You don't know that, you're guessing - and guessing this particular "guess" because it suits your agenda.
..................................

"...If he really has a grappling background but does not want to say all he has to do is PM you..."
.......................................

***LIKE I'm really going to trust this guy with information that I don't want to put out publicly. More bull5hit.
...............................

1) "Belief that what they train is special and unique and better than what most train."
.........................

***I BELIEVE that cacc wrestling has more to offer than other grappling systems, yes. Do I think that catch wrestlers of today would be wise to learn how to use some guard work - as well as continuing to do what they do to beat the guard? You bet.
.......................................

2) "Inability to spot good grappling in clips posted."
................

BULL5HIT.
..............................

"talks about how the guard is crap for the streets."
..........................

***NOT CRAP, waaay too risky if it can be avoided. And should be avoided as much as possible. That's right.
.........................................

"Only rolls with strikes to keep it real."
.............................

***D A M N RIGHT.
.............................

"Bitter dislike of the Gracie’s for no real reason."
................................

***NOT BITTER...Just a big dislike for all the bull5hit hype.
............................................

"Extreme nut riding of a few fighters whilst ignoring..."

***LET'S translate this one into English, shall we? You hate the fact that Sakuraba and Barnett have disproven the theory that BJJ is the end-all and be-all of grappling.
................................

"Talks about how this and that technique will destroy the guard without having any proof to back it up...like the Boston crab."

***HALF crab against the guard is on Barnett's "ATTACKING THE GUARD" vid.



Your arguments are just too cool - I guess that's why your name is Frost.

[m1k3]

Victor, what it comes down to is we gave you a chance to post your grappling background and you chose not to. I thought the reason was rather strange but still your choice. I for one believe that your grappling background is weak at best will accord all your grappling posts with the respect they deserve, which is little to none.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"We gave you a chance..." ???!!! :D :p :)

Is that riiiiight ???!!! :cool:

You're delusions are all yours....and never will apply to me.

[m1k3]

"We gave you a chance..." ???!!! :D :p :)

Is that riiiiight ???!!! :cool:

You're delusions are all yours....and never will apply to me.

delusion: A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.

Aren't you the only one here touting the superiority of cacc? :rolleyes:

N'uff said.

BTW, I don't know if it applies or not but happy father's day. :)

[Frost]

Your arguments are just too cool - I guess that's why your name is Frost.

Nope names frost because that’s my real name, thought about using a cool screen name like ultimate grappler because I have mixed my boxing learned from a friend and wingchun from a video tape with my grappling but thought that was just egotistical :)




Originally Posted by Frost
"He won’t give one because he hasn't really trained with anyone; it’s not about being seen as disloyal it’s about not having it."
.........................

***BULL5HIT. You don't know that, you're guessing - and guessing this particular "guess" because it suits your agenda.

Not guessing your comments below speak volumes about your training or lack of it
..................................

"...If he really has a grappling background but does not want to say all he has to do is PM you..."
.......................................

***LIKE I'm really going to trust this guy with information that I don't want to put out publicly. More bull5hit.
...............................

1) "Belief that what they train is special and unique and better than what most train."
.........................

***I BELIEVE that cacc wrestling has more to offer than other grappling systems, yes. Do I think that catch wrestlers of today would be wise to learn how to use some guard work - as well as continuing to do what they do to beat the guard? You bet.

lol if you think a style that does not empathise the guard at all (and dislikes having a players shoulders to the mat) knows ways to beat it that are equal (let alone superior) to the techniques and strategies of a style that includes it in its main positions...this is a hint right there you know jack sh*t about BJJ or any other grappling style...and also a good indicator of how much real training you have done
.......................................

2) "Inability to spot good grappling in clips posted."
................

BULL5HIT.

(Go re read your comments about the video posted on this thread that josh was on)
..............................

"talks about how the guard is crap for the streets."
..........................

***NOT CRAP, waaay too risky if it can be avoided. And should be avoided as much as possible. That's right.
.........................................

"Only rolls with strikes to keep it real."
.............................

***D A M N RIGHT.

(and then you wonder how come you are not getting any better at grappling...do you wonder why guys like Josh and all the top guys spent alot of time rolling without strikes......:confused: )
.............................

"Bitter dislike of the Gracie’s for no real reason."
................................

***NOT BITTER...Just a big dislike for all the bull5hit hype.

(Lol the saviour of CACC talking about b*llsh*t hype:eek: )
............................................

"Extreme nut riding of a few fighters whilst ignoring..."

***LET'S translate this one into English, shall we? You hate the fact that Sakuraba and Barnett have disproven the theory that BJJ is the end-all and be-all of grappling.

(And what about Takada, Anjoh, fgunaki, nakai, kimura and all the rest CACC guys that the Gracie’s and BJJ guys have beaten...what about then?)
................................

"Talks about how this and that technique will destroy the guard without having any proof to back it up...like the Boston crab."

the fact that you have a belief it will work because josh demod it on a tape even though you have never seen it work in a fight or comp speaks volumes about your skill level and how you are trained)


***HALF crab against the guard is on Barnett's "ATTACKING THE GUARD" vid.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"lol if you think a style that does not empathise the guard at all (and dislikes having a players shoulders to the mat) knows ways to beat it that are equal (let alone superior) to the techniques and strategies of a style that includes it in its main positions..."
.............................

***SHOULDERS on the mat is a non-issue with todays cacc wrestlers in mma.

As for beating the guard, sure...

1) knowing some jiu jitsu ways to pass is smart...

2) as are the ways cacc can beat it...

3) as well as the GnP...

and btw, you might want to know more about numbers 2 and 3 by watching Barnett's vid; that is, if weren't such a nut-hugger.

As for rolling with and without strikes...listen, OF COURSE we drill and roll without strikes - in order to first learn the wrestling/grappling concepts and techniques...

but we add strikes very soon thereafter...and never stop using them until it's time to learn some new concepts and techniques...and then the process begins again.

My belief is that I want to incorporate striking constantly, constantly, constantly...

otherwise you have a sport - and not a true fighting art, imo.

Wrestling/grappling comps are okay...they serve their purpose...but I'm more interested in an mma approach to wrestling.

[m1k3]

Nope names frost because that’s my real name, thought about using a cool screen name like ultimate grappler because I have mixed my boxing learned from a friend and wingchun from a video tape with my grappling but thought that was just egotistical :)

No, its learned from a friend who has a cousin who is a boxer.


And as for who I've learned some boxing from: it's one of my long time students...who trained in boxing with his cousin...said cousin being a former Golden Gloves fighter...and my student has never stopped picking up more-and-more boxing through the years from his cousin...so he's waaay better now than he was when he first walked through my door in 1991...and still comes to my classes...

[Frost]

No, its learned from a friend who has a cousin who is a boxer.

sorry my mistake ....:D

[Frost]

"lol if you think a style that does not empathise the guard at all (and dislikes having a players shoulders to the mat) knows ways to beat it that are equal (let alone superior) to the techniques and strategies of a style that includes it in its main positions..."
.............................

***SHOULDERS on the mat is a non-issue with todays cacc wrestlers in mma.

As for beating the guard, sure...

1) knowing some jiu jitsu ways to pass is smart...

2) as are the ways cacc can beat it...

3) as well as the GnP...



and btw, you might want to know more about numbers 2 and 3 by watching Barnett's vid; that is, if weren't such a nut-hugger

nut hugging lol coming from a guy who believes CACC has just as good if not better ways to pass the guard than BJJ....if its not nut riding to believe that an art that has up until recently no real expereince against a guy flat on his back with his legs between you and him or around is as good here than an art that has specialised in it for decades then i dont know what nut hugging is :)

"
As for rolling with and without strikes...listen, OF COURSE we drill and roll without strikes - in order to first learn the wrestling/grappling concepts and techniques...

but we add strikes very soon thereafter...and never stop using them until it's time to learn some new concepts and techniques...and then the process begins again.

My belief is that I want to incorporate striking constantly, constantly, constantly...

otherwise you have a sport - and not a true fighting art, imo.

Wrestling/grappling comps are okay...they serve their purpose...but I'm more interested in an mma approach to wrestling.


Lol if you were interested in an MMA approach to wrestling you would do what MMA gyms do, spend an equal amount of time rolling with and without strikes :)

[Wayfaring]

"lol if you think a style that does not empathise the guard at all (and dislikes having a players shoulders to the mat) knows ways to beat it that are equal (let alone superior) to the techniques and strategies of a style that includes it in its main positions..."
.............................

***SHOULDERS on the mat is a non-issue with todays cacc wrestlers in mma.

As for beating the guard, sure...

1) knowing some jiu jitsu ways to pass is smart...

2) as are the ways cacc can beat it...

3) as well as the GnP...

and btw, you might want to know more about numbers 2 and 3 by watching Barnett's vid; that is, if weren't such a nut-hugger.

As for rolling with and without strikes...listen, OF COURSE we drill and roll without strikes - in order to first learn the wrestling/grappling concepts and techniques...

but we add strikes very soon thereafter...and never stop using them until it's time to learn some new concepts and techniques...and then the process begins again.

My belief is that I want to incorporate striking constantly, constantly, constantly...

otherwise you have a sport - and not a true fighting art, imo.

Wrestling/grappling comps are okay...they serve their purpose...but I'm more interested in an mma approach to wrestling.

More and more I'm starting to see a lot less lines of demarcation between submission grappling approaches more recently. A lot of it does go back to the popularization of it due to BJJ influence, but for whatever reason it's great. Many call what they do submission grappling, no-gi BJJ, sambo, cacc.

Wrestling itself used to be a HS sport only, no adults involved unless it was to wrestle either in college or try to make the Olympics. Now with it's effectiveness in MMA it's starting to be trained by adults more and more.

I think whether it's cacc or bjj as a label, passing the guard is going to have the same fundamentals. The same about many other things. I could probably talk with you for about an hour about the top wristlock itself - going back and forth on aspects of finishing with it - I know both the bjj and cacc approach to it, and there are aspects to each of value.

One thing that is interesting to watch is the progression of the MMA fighters where I train. Early on most of them get ****y and don't do gi, don't do the submission grappling no-gi only training. They say 'I don't like jits without hits'. Then invariably they will either get caught in a submission in a fight or get stuck against the cage without escape skills and then the better ones start training it more seriously again.

I'd encourage people to train both, get out and roll open mat night or day around different schools, do comps. Comps are awesome - great networking - a variable who's who of local talent.

[Frost]

More and more I'm starting to see a lot less lines of demarcation between submission grappling approaches more recently. A lot of it does go back to the popularization of it due to BJJ influence, but for whatever reason it's great. Many call what they do submission grappling, no-gi BJJ, sambo, cacc.

Wrestling itself used to be a HS sport only, no adults involved unless it was to wrestle either in college or try to make the Olympics. Now with it's effectiveness in MMA it's starting to be trained by adults more and more.

I think whether it's cacc or bjj as a label, passing the guard is going to have the same fundamentals. The same about many other things. I could probably talk with you for about an hour about the top wristlock itself - going back and forth on aspects of finishing with it - I know both the bjj and cacc approach to it, and there are aspects to each of value.

One thing that is interesting to watch is the progression of the MMA fighters where I train. Early on most of them get ****y and don't do gi, don't do the submission grappling no-gi only training. They say 'I don't like jits without hits'. Then invariably they will either get caught in a submission in a fight or get stuck against the cage without escape skills and then the better ones start training it more seriously again.

I'd encourage people to train both, get out and roll open mat night or day around different schools, do comps. Comps are awesome - great networking - a variable who's who of local talent.

Yep to be good you have to train submission grappling on its own, you simply can't get good enough at grappling if you are always throwing strikes.

its the same with stand up to get good at wrestling you have to practise it without stirkes as well as with its a no brainer really and as you say all good fighters train and even compete no gi ( i remember wtaching myself and everyone else in my weight catagory get destroyed by bisping at his first tournement back in the day)

[m1k3]

Yep to be good you have to train submission grappling on its own, you simply can't get good enough at grappling if you are always throwing strikes.

its the same with stand up to get good at wrestling you have to practise it without stirkes as well as with its a no brainer really and as you say all good fighters train and even compete no gi ( i remember wtaching myself and everyone else in my weight catagory get destroyed by bisping at his first tournement back in the day)

Which to be honest, I think that those of us who grapple were saying that. As a submission grappler I really don't give a rat's a$$ what you call it, its all good.

[Frost]

Which to be honest, I think that those of us who grapple were saying that. As a submission grappler I really don't give a rat's a$$ what you call it, its all good.

true, but we give due credit to where what we do comes from but we take anything that works well:)

[Wayfaring]

Here's another match that's kind of fun. I don't know if Frank Mir does cacc but he certainly does look like he comes from a wrestling background. Roy is BJJ - LOL you can hear Marc Laimon's mouth coaching through most of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dj5xMeXybs

[m1k3]

Wow, I love big country playing the bravo half guard game and even going for an electric chair submission/sweep. Good Stuff. :)

[Wayfaring]

Yes, that also was 7 years ago. I think it might be more widespread now.

[Frost]

Yes, that also was 7 years ago. I think it might be more widespread now.

Mirs a BJJ blackbelt dont think he was a stand out wrestler anywhere though...nice clips :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

......is a cacc wrestling instructor in Quebec, Canada, and trains a team of guys.

Here's some of his vids, starting with the half Boston crab. Enjoy.


Half Boston crab:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Iatskev#p/u/21/ZQjiCuKUyrY
.........................................

Coming back to base:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Iatskev#p/u/7/N6JPc-8WNmY
..........................................

Rolling around:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Iatskev#p/u/41/kqmHrFtFfEY

[Wayfaring]

......is a cacc wrestling instructor in Quebec, Canada, and trains a team of guys.

Here's some of his vids, starting with the half Boston crab. Enjoy.


Half Boston crab:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Iatskev#p/u/21/ZQjiCuKUyrY
.........................................

I like the boston crab. sometimes it's hard live to get them to turnover like he was demo-ing.



Coming back to base:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Iatskev#p/u/7/N6JPc-8WNmY
..........................................

this wasn't very good at all. first he's not working against low hips - contrast the side control position he was working from under with even tony c's tapes with the low hips side control. next, a lot of where you can hip heist to depends on where you can swim your hands. he didn't really cover that. last when you're under a lot of pressure from top you need to swing your legs one way or bridge another way to get the hip action to start the hip heist escape - never showed that because there was never any pressure on him to work out of. so all in all not good detail there. there's a lot better stuff on side control escapes around.




Rolling around:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Iatskev#p/u/41/kqmHrFtFfEY

[/quote]

these don't look like very hard matches - they are "flow" rolling, which is ok for warmups, building flow, etc. the one big guy that's not bald seems to have decent fundamental flow. but not much resistance to any technique - maybe it's a 'demo' video.

[Frost]

I like the boston crab. sometimes it's hard live to get them to turnover like he was demo-ing.


this wasn't very good at all. first he's not working against low hips - contrast the side control position he was working from under with even tony c's tapes with the low hips side control. next, a lot of where you can hip heist to depends on where you can swim your hands. he didn't really cover that. last when you're under a lot of pressure from top you need to swing your legs one way or bridge another way to get the hip action to start the hip heist escape - never showed that because there was never any pressure on him to work out of. so all in all not good detail there. there's a lot better stuff on side control escapes around.






these don't look like very hard matches - they are "flow" rolling, which is ok for warmups, building flow, etc. the one big guy that's not bald seems to have decent fundamental flow. but not much resistance to any technique - maybe it's a 'demo' video.[/QUOTE]

you had to go and look at them didnt you

i saw the boston crab one and left it there, never seen that work anywhere......but viewed them after your review, agreed about th side control stuff, much better out there (matt thorntons stuff is excellent)
nd the sparring was not hard going, it looked like flow stuff you are right,

[Ultimatewingchun]

Boston crab vid:

A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold.
.....................................

Coming back to base:

And just what do you think the reason was that he demoed this against someone not using low hips (like wrestlers, like what Cecchine advocates, etc.) ??? Because in today's grappling/mma world most guys are on their knees from cross chest side control in order to work for mount. Not to mention the fact that getting a double wristlock or a top wristlock from side control is easiest done from the knees (or at least a tripod type position).

And as for other types of escapes from side control - including against low hips - you can rest assured that the man in question knows a number of them. But this vid was about the other scenario - as well as if someone has your back.
...................................

Rolling around:

Was it some sort of tournament atmosphere? No. Was it good stuff nonetheless? Of course it was.
................................

And btw...

Watch what Sakuraba does at about 40 seconds into this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnEFL0dt73g&feature=related

[Wayfaring]

Boston crab vid:

A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold.

What do strikes have to do with the Boston crab setup? I mean I'm not arguing the point of incorporating strikes in training, but just don't see it in this scenario.



.....................................

Coming back to base:

And just what do you think the reason was that he demoed this against someone not using low hips (like wrestlers, like what Cecchine advocates, etc.) ??? Because in today's grappling/mma world most guys are on their knees from cross chest side control in order to work for mount. Not to mention the fact that getting a double wristlock or a top wristlock from side control is easiest done from the knees (or at least a tripod type position).

And as for other types of escapes from side control - including against low hips - you can rest assured that the man in question knows a number of them. But this vid was about the other scenario - as well as if someone has your back.



there wasn't really any reason to demo this escape against no pressure from the top, and with enough of a hole on top to drive a semi through. that's not a scenario that comes up rolling with anybody with fundamentals, and if they don't have fundamentals, why bother videoing a demo against it?

No good grappler I know of (bjj, sub wrestling, catch, freestyle, sambo, etc.) leaves those kind of holes, even on their knees. Just because you have your knees under you doesn't mean your hips can't be low, and it's really poor grappling posture to have that much space on top.

We don't really know what the guy knows or what he doesn't, just the video he puts out there.



...................................

Rolling around:

Was it some sort of tournament atmosphere? No. Was it good stuff nonetheless? Of course it was.


My point there was not whether flow rolling is good stuff or not. It's an important piece to developing fluidity from one position to another. This is true in any grappling art, bjj, catch, sambo, etc. It's good to see flow rolling.

Here's an example of something that is not quite flow rolling - it's not tournament going after it pace, but genuine pressure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1kLYq2noc8

Can you see how there's more competitive resistance in that clip?

My point was I'd like to see competitive grappling clips like that out of those guys training as well - not just flow rolling.

In a class setting, if you do flow rolling to warm up, then progress in your matches to more competitive rolling, that is a great scenario for consistent training.



................................

And btw...

Watch what Sakuraba does at about 40 seconds into this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnEFL0dt73g&feature=related

Sakuraba is fighting out from competitive pressure in that situation. There's a huge difference between that and the demo. The demo the guys says "you never want to be on your back you always want to be on your side", then turns to his side with the guy on top on all fours. Not even down on his elbows.

Also, notice the difference in detail execution between Sak and the demo. The demo guy has his top arm to his chest and his down arm on the opponent's hip. Sak has his down arm not on the hip, but swims both under to give him leverage for the hip heist going to the back.

That is a key detail missing in the demo, and the exact key detail that is the difference between it working under pressure and in a live situation and it not working.

[Yao Sing]

Mmmmm, Boston crab.
:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun

Boston crab vid:

"A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold."
.....................................

And amazingly, this was one response:

"What do strikes have to do with the Boston crab setup? I mean I'm not arguing the point of incorporating strikes in training, but just don't see it in this scenario."
.............................................

***LOFL. :cool:

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun

Boston crab vid:

"A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold."
.....................................

And amazingly, this was one response:

"What do strikes have to do with the Boston crab setup? I mean I'm not arguing the point of incorporating strikes in training, but just don't see it in this scenario."
.............................................

***LOFL. :cool:
what i think he meant is that if it doesnt work in grappling, relying on strikes to make it work is silly, if its not a solid fundermental move you can hit over and over why bother with it?
then its a perfect example of something that will never work in a grappling situation but will somehow majically work when strikes are added...if you cant pull it off without strikes chances are you will not pull it off with strikes, yes he might push of with his legs, he might not, and if he does it will be so fast that you will probably not be able to get the leg, and if you can do you really think he will lay there and let you turn him over?:eek:

as for the side control position, he was, as pointed out working against a cr*p side control, fundermentals such as how to get from flat on the back to on your shoulder, how to swim in an arm, how to get the near side arm in to make a frame, how to defend the cross face, these should all be covered before showing the escapes otherwise the rest is useless.

And being on your knees does not mean you are not using low hips people train to have a tight low control with their knees up, why show something that only works agianst bad positions its just silly you should demo things that work against everyone not just scrubs

[Wayfaring]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun

Boston crab vid:

"A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold."
.....................................

And amazingly, this was one response:

"What do strikes have to do with the Boston crab setup? I mean I'm not arguing the point of incorporating strikes in training, but just don't see it in this scenario."
.............................................

***LOFL. :cool:

It's nice you can LOFL.

How about answering intelligently and addressing the points instead of posting idiocy?

You are standing, your opponent is on his back. Like in the video demo. You are attacking one of his legs.

Please describe to me exactly where strikes come into play. You're not GNP, you're not striking standing, you're not kicking him. There are only 2 scenarios I can think of where striking comes into play with one person standing and the other on his back. An upkick from the bottom, or punching over the top of his guard going into GNP. Neither of those have much to do with the Boston Crab, other than if you can snag one of the legs while he's upkicking.

Also, LOL at "hip-to-hip pressure" setting one of these up. What, posturing up in someone's guard? Yeah, that really gets them to throw out one of their feet for you to attack.

[Ultimatewingchun]

According to "who" is it silly, Frost?

People who want to keep everything a sport?

How is it silly to get caught in a half boston crab and half your back injured when someone sits down on it while pulling your leg in the other direction?

And you can't move to take the pressure off. How is that silly?

Or they mess up your achilles? Or both?

It's silly because a combination of strikes and hip-to-hip pressure is what set it up???!!!

Along with posturing up correctly, posting a leg that can't be swept, and using that leg to tighten up against his guard leg and hip - making it tough for him to maneuver on that side.

Yeah, I guess that's all pretty silly.

[m1k3]

Victor, what is the cacc position on space and weight for things like side control or mount? Just trying to understand the starting position on the getting back to base demo.

[Frost]

According to "who" is it silly, Frost?

People who want to keep everything a sport?

How is it silly to get caught in a half boston crab and half your back injured when someone sits down on it while pulling your leg in the other direction?

And you can't move to take the pressure off. How is that silly?

Or they mess up your achilles? Or both?

It's silly because a combination of strikes and hip-to-hip pressure is what set it up???!!!

Along with posturing up correctly, posting a leg that can't be swept, and using that leg to tighten up against his guard leg and hip - making it tough for him to maneuver on that side.

Yeah, I guess that's all pretty silly.

No whats silly is someone who has never competed in grappling and never trained at a decent MMA school telling people who have what will or will not work :rolleyes:

Silly is a move that you never see pulled off in MMA or grappling...silly is relying on strikes to make a move work because it is low percentage and cr*ppy...silly is getting all your training and ideas from youtube...silly is not being able to answer any of wayfarings or my questions about the technique.....silly is telling people who actually grapple how to psoture and use a move...thats silly

Something else thats silly is you keep posting videos you think are very good then get annoyed when people why actually grapple and compete question there usefullness, if all you want is for people to go "gosh isnt that good" then perhaps you should post them on a site which doesnt have people that actually know about grappling and MMA? Either that or just accept that people here know more about this than you and dont find what you post that good...just a thought......



combination of strikes and hip pressure LMAO as already asked what strikes and hip pressure please enlighten us.....

[Wayfaring]

Along with posturing up correctly, posting a leg that can't be swept, and using that leg to tighten up against his guard leg and hip - making it tough for him to maneuver on that side.


Well now you're at least starting to sound more intelligent.

Attacking a leg from guard - yes, when they start to move their legs from closed guard to putting a foot on your hip, the best initialization to attacking a foot is to post a leg up same side, knee in with pressure against his leg, and your elbow inside. That tends to pop his foot off your hip and feed it to you to attack.

I like the Boston crab better from there, as falling back for a footlock if you can't finish it you usually give up position.

[Ultimatewingchun]

1) You won't lose "position"...CONTROLLING POSITION, that is...if you fall back into heel hook, achilles, or step over toe hold if he pushes with that leg. It'll be too late for him to stand up and gain a controlling position of his own at that point.

2) Cecchine's position is that hips must always be lowered by getting completely off your knees when using side control. I used to work exclusively with that concept - but have changed my approach - and other cacc wrestlers also don't abide by that as an all out strict rule also.

I like to hip completely down and off the knees when first getting the position - in order to fortify my control over the guy, ie.- he's really pinned to the floor and carrying all my weight. And from there I like to go to tripod and start working for subs and/or strikes.

But of course this is "theory"...the reality in cacc is that anything can happen at any given moment..."catch any hold you can"...in order to gain control over his body.

Control is the name of the catch game - using your whole body as a weapon and his whole body as a target.

You want to ride heavy as much as you can - because this tires him out and makes it hard for him to maneuver - but in truth - the over riding principle in cacc is CONTROL...and heavy rides are just a means to that end - but not the only means.

[Wayfaring]

1) You won't lose "position"...CONTROLLING POSITION, that is...if you fall back into heel hook, achilles, or step over toe hold if he pushes with that leg. It'll be too late for him to stand up and gain a controlling position of his own at that point.

You lose position against better grapplers immediately in the transition. If someone is falling back on me I can sit up into them immediately and beat the knee in between my legs from coming over the top to defend.


2) Cecchine's position is that hips must always be lowered by getting completely off your knees when using side control. I used to work exclusively with that concept - but have changed my approach - and other cacc wrestlers also don't abide by that as an all out strict rule also.

You need more mobility than that for a really effective top game. Although his concept of getting them carrying the weight and punishing them from the top is a good one. But you need mobility and to be able to block their hip movement with both hands and knees to be effective. And good transitions between side control, mount, and knee on belly.


I like to hip completely down and off the knees when first getting the position - in order to fortify my control over the guy, ie.- he's really pinned to the floor and carrying all my weight. And from there I like to go to tripod and start working for subs and/or strikes.

when you first get an advantageous position people are going to spaz out to escape, reverse, throw you off. you have to weather that storm first, then when there's a gap because they are tired advance or work a sub. Low hips are good, circling to north-south is good. tony c's low hip side control to me still leaves an opening for them to rock back and forth and snag a leg for half guard. you have to be real careful to block that with going to one hip, then consolidate.


But of course this is "theory"...the reality in cacc is that anything can happen at any given moment..."catch any hold you can"...in order to gain control over his body.

i'm coming to the viewpoint that not 'anything' can happen. there are certain things that can happen from certain positions, and you can direct that flow to set things up.


Control is the name of the catch game - using your whole body as a weapon and his whole body as a target.

You want to ride heavy as much as you can - because this tires him out and makes it hard for him to maneuver - but in truth - the over riding principle in cacc is CONTROL...and heavy rides are just a means to that end - but not the only means.
this is funny because it's kind of coming full circle with discussions about BJJ. their whole deal about 'position before submission' is totally a control thing. in better positions you have more control over your opponent, and can use that control advantage to effectively apply a submission.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think my work is done here.

[Knifefighter]

......is a cacc wrestling instructor in Quebec, Canada, and trains a team of guys.

Here's some of his vids, starting with the half Boston crab. Enjoy.


Half Boston crab:


There is a reason you don't see matches won with the Boston crab as shown like that. It doesn't work. It doesn't work in submission grappling, it doesn't work in MMA, and it doesn't work in SAMBO.

There are variations that will work, but not like that. Trying to do what he is showing will simply get you swept or leg-locked yourself.



Coming back to base:

Putting both hands on the hips like that is a recipe for having your opponent throw on a D'acrce choke on you.

[Knifefighter]

Boston crab vid:

A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold.

Personally, I prefer to stick with the moves that work both with and without striking.
Not to mention the fact that the guy would have to be already unconscious to the move to work anyway.


Watch what Sakuraba does at about 40 seconds into this vid.
Sakaraba was not in the position shown on the original vid.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just because YOU haven't seen the move before - or haven't seen it WORK before - doesn't mean that it won't work.

Take a good look at this cacc submission demoed by Tony Cecchine. I'm sure the odds that you've ever seen it before - and done EXACTLY like this...are slim to none.

But this move is friggin' awesome. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86mqhBE2ip4


...Okay, now I'm done here. :cool:

[Frost]

Just because YOU haven't seen the move before - or haven't seen it WORK before - doesn't mean that it won't work.

Take a good look at this cacc submission demoed by Tony Cecchine. I'm sure the odds that you've ever seen it before - and done EXACTLY like this...are slim to none.

But this move is friggin' awesome. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86mqhBE2ip4


...Okay, now I'm done here. :cool:

so you have seen it work or made it work in competition then....cool which comps please share.:cool:

you know when a BJJ blackbelt and no gi competiter tells you something might not work if i was you id swollow my pride and acccept what he says

[Frost]

1) You won't lose "position"...CONTROLLING POSITION, that is...if you fall back into heel hook, achilles, or step over toe hold if he pushes with that leg. It'll be too late for him to stand up and gain a controlling position of his own at that point..


sorry but you saying this screams newbie and someone who has never rolled with anyone half decent, as soon as you fall back you lose controlling position, its not too late because you have to throw your leg over, and anyone hlaf decent (ie not a student who has never grappled) will sit up and defend

[m1k3]

Frost, you can argue with him until you turn blue and it won't make any difference. He is a believer and as such is immune to rational arguments based on experience.

He is still a that point in his training where he collecting techniques rather than understanding how grappling works as a whole. That's why he is posting all these OMG LOOK AT THIS and OMG CHECK THIS OUT vids. When I first started I bought probably every BJJ book out there.

We have all been through that phase but when you train at a good school you have senior people to show you the error of your ways.

Victor, since you hate BJJ, did you know one of the best Sambo schools anywhere is located in NYC. You should look into it. The owner of the school posts on Bullshido as SamboSteve. Get in touch with him, it will truly improve your grappling game. BTW, Sambo includes striking in their training. Think Fedor.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't hate BJJ - I love cacc.

Get over it.

And in fact, come to think of it...that's probably the theme to this thread....and so many other threads on various forums through the years whenever anyone talks highly of cacc.

Invariably a whole bunch of people like you guys have to be given the same message:

GET OVER IT.

It never fails. Haven't seen a thread yet in about 8 years now wherein a number of bjj guys HAVE to try and discredit catch.


It's actually kind of funny at this point....in a pathetic sort of way.

Sakuraba and Barnett be d a m n e d. They're aberrations. What they've done doesn't matter. Until the next guy comes along. And then what he does won't matter either.

It's really getting kind if funny. :D

[m1k3]

Victor, I don't hate cacc. My initial grappling background is in folkstyle wrestling. I don't hate Judo or Sambo or Sumo or BJJ or any other style of wrestling/grappling that trains in a realistic manor and competes. I just don't see cacc as being anything special. So, there's nothing to get over.

BTW, check out the Sambo school in NYC, they are really good and would be a lot closer to cacc in style and mindset than a lot of other submission grappling schools.

[Frost]

Frost, you can argue with him until you turn blue and it won't make any difference. He is a believer and as such is immune to rational arguments based on experience.

He is still a that point in his training where he collecting techniques rather than understanding how grappling works as a whole. That's why he is posting all these OMG LOOK AT THIS and OMG CHECK THIS OUT vids. When I first started I bought probably every BJJ book out there.

We have all been through that phase but when you train at a good school you have senior people to show you the error of your ways.

Victor, since you hate BJJ, did you know one of the best Sambo schools anywhere is located in NYC. You should look into it. The owner of the school posts on Bullshido as SamboSteve. Get in touch with him, it will truly improve your grappling game. BTW, Sambo includes striking in their training. Think Fedor.

true , i just find it ironic he goes on and on on the wing chun forum about people not having the expereince to comment on wing chun, and yet here he is a tape trained grappler telling us all what grappling is and now great CACC is...

but then if you think about it it makes sense...

his grappling style is relatively unkown which means he is either a long distance student or tape trained........its unproven to a large extent in actual competition....and is taught by people with iffy backgrounds and lineages no one can agree on....remind you of any other style :cool:

[Knifefighter]

Just because YOU haven't seen the move before - or haven't seen it WORK before - doesn't mean that it won't work.

Take a good look at this cacc submission demoed by Tony Cecchine. I'm sure the odds that you've ever seen it before - and done EXACTLY like this...are slim to none.

But this move is friggin' awesome. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86mqhBE2ip4


...Okay, now I'm done here. :cool:

That choke is fine. Your problem is you have no idea of the difference between what works and what doesn't work because you aren't out there using the various moves.

[Knifefighter]

sorry but you saying this screams newbie and someone who has never rolled with anyone half decent, as soon as you fall back you lose controlling position, its not too late because you have to throw your leg over, and anyone hlaf decent (ie not a student who has never grappled) will sit up and defend

Actually, "half decent" grapplers get caught in leg locks all the time precisely because the person putting on the leg lock prevents them from sitting up and defending. Leg locks put you in no worse position than lying back into an arm bar (in which the opponent often ends up on top if he escapes) or throwing on a triangle (in which the opponent has the chance to stack and pass the guard).

The problem with with the boston crab is that is pretty much violates all the principles that you want to have in place to try to keep the opponent under control.

[lkfmdc]

Despite some (seems now outdated) Brazilian biases against leg locks, they do indeed work.....

[Ultimatewingchun]

That choke is fine. Your problem is you have no idea of the difference between what works and what doesn't work because you aren't out there using the various moves.


***But yet I somehow managed to know that the choke is fine. Okay.

Must have been a lucky guess. :rolleyes:

[m1k3]

***But yet I somehow managed to know that the choke is fine. Okay.

Must have been a lucky guess. :rolleyes:

Even a blind pig finds an acorn every now and then. :)

[Knifefighter]

***But yet I somehow managed to know that the choke is fine. Okay.

Must have been a lucky guess. :rolleyes:

LOL... you think every catch technique is fine. Like I said, you don't know the difference between the effective and non-effective ones.

[Ultimatewingchun]

No, of course I don't think that all catch submissions are good. Some are show holds.

But wait...how did I know that? :confused: :cool:

God, you're such a chest-beating troll. :rolleyes:

Now...for sure...I'm done here. Enough is enough. ;)

[monji112000]

No, of course I don't think that all catch submissions are good. Some are show holds.

But wait...how did I know that? :confused: :cool:

God, you're such a chest-beating troll. :rolleyes:

Now...for sure...I'm done here. Enough is enough. ;)

You only know whats a show hold because a video tape said so or some guy said so.
Once you takeout competition (even ones that allow strikes .. MMA), your stuck on faith. The only other option is to join a large gym and roll with allot of people allot. IE replace competition with competition.


Despite some (seems now outdated) Brazilian biases against leg locks, they do indeed work.....

as you said outdated. The only issue I see that people make is leg locks are a little more dangerous. Sambo guys practice with them and seem to be fine, so I'm not too caught up in all the worry. I'm actually planning on really studying that style of leg locks (sambo) when I get better down the road. I still feel like I need to work on other things. I'm still getting the basics. that being said people go for knee bars, and straight ankle locks on me all the time. (blue belts and up)..


Just because YOU haven't seen the move before - or haven't seen it WORK before - doesn't mean that it won't work.

Take a good look at this cacc submission demoed by Tony Cecchine. I'm sure the odds that you've ever seen it before - and done EXACTLY like this...are slim to none.

But this move is friggin' awesome. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86mqhBE2ip4


...Okay, now I'm done here. :cool:

:D Tony Cecchine.. a William CHung Sifu suddenly joins the Cecchine cult. You know this guy is one of the biggest losers on the planet. That the whole "catch" community hates him. He has been outed as a lier.

That "choke" as you describe it is not amazing, its retarded

this is amazing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PJw59SuBHk

thiis is another one thats pretty nice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5y642l9QM&feature=related

and this although not really 100% resistance is pretty nice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gibp7uFGRqM


Nobody here hates catch, some just fine it humorous that you suddenly are madly in love with allot of moves that are very hard to pull off, often rely on pain rather than more reliable means to cause an opponent to give up. that you advocate striking when grappling when you and none of your students compete in any reputable MMA event (and probably never will). and lastly that although you love to ride Fedor's nut sack, you do not in anyway study Sambo. A sport I will add, that is based on the idea that live practice is a mandatory requirement that and competition:eek:.