Soldiers and Suicide

[kfson]

....I've been thinking in response to the closed thread. Soldiers don't want to get psychological help from the military because they (themselves and top brass) think this act makes them look weak. The psychological help will go on their record and any promotion board will see this as a weakness and an inability to lead soldiers under duress. If a soldier is a career officer, this is even more of a risk because an officer has to be promoted or leave the service or become an NCO.

Next, a soldier is trained to deal with a belligerent in one manner, terminating it's physical existence. When some soldiers have a belligerent in his head, they deal with it as such.

[Drake]

Research stuff before you make assertions, thanks.

[kfson]

Research stuff before you make assertions, thanks.

Direct life experience, thank you, good by.

[Drake]

Direct life experience, thank you, good by.

What direct life experience? Would you like me to pick apart your post, or do you simply want to fix the inaccuracies and flat out errors you've made?

[Drake]

....I've been thinking in response to the closed thread. Soldiers don't want to get psychological help from the military because they (themselves and top brass) think this act makes them look weak. The psychological help will go on their record and any promotion board will see this as a weakness and an inability to lead soldiers under duress. If a soldier is a career officer, this is even more of a risk because an officer has to be promoted or leave the service or become an NCO.

Next, a soldier is trained to deal with a belligerent in one manner, terminating it's physical existence. When some soldiers have a belligerent in his head, they deal with it as such.

Forget it... I'll do it myself.

1. If you haven't noticed, you can go to see mental health with NO consequences. It isn't a sign of weakness, and that fact is put out every three months or so during mandatory training.

2. Your mental health does not go in front of your promotion board. That data is protected, confidential information. It's a violation of the HIPPA Act to use it during a board, centralized OR decentralized.

3. Career officer? WTF are you talking about? We do not "become NCOs" if our performance isn't to standard. We simply aren't promoted, which is a stretch, with promotion rates at nearly 90% for first look alone... TO LTC. MAJ is virtually a given these days. The rest resign their commission. They do not become NCOs.


So.... either you are confused or your life experience is in direct conflict with what the Army is.

[David Jamieson]

Forget it... I'll do it myself.

1. If you haven't noticed, you can go to see mental health with NO consequences. It isn't a sign of weakness, and that fact is put out every three months or so during mandatory training.

2. Your mental health does not go in front of your promotion board. That data is protected, confidential information. It's a violation of the HIPPA Act to use it during a board, centralized OR decentralized.

3. Career officer? WTF are you talking about? We do not "become NCOs" if our performance isn't to standard. We simply aren't promoted, which is a stretch, with promotion rates at nearly 90% for first look alone... TO LTC. MAJ is virtually a given these days. The rest resign their commission. They do not become NCOs.


So.... either you are confused or your life experience is in direct conflict with what the Army is.

Just wanna point something out and it's not in defense of anyone, but:

1) A person has to be of the mental fortitude to actually go and ask and yes, people that openly speak of mental issues get ostracized regardless of the law around it. I've seen it happen with other friends who state they have issues and then are dropped and not communicated anymore with by others which causes the issue to widen somewhat. So, there is a consequence.

2)your mental health may not go in front of a promotion board but it is a huge factor in whether or not you are allowed to go get promoted. Wouldn't you say? Yeah that info is protected, from your peers, but not from your commanding officers or from medical personnel and these are all people and they are all capable of communicating it to others are they not?

3) the person who pulled out the pistols and killed those folks in the army barracks was a major and a career officer was he not? Right now up here we have a base commander Lt.Col who is currently on trial for 2 murders, numerous sexual assaults and various break and enters over a period of years. He has been suicidal and exhibits extreme mental wear and tear.

You have a very positive view of the military. IN some respects I can get behind that, but I don't think you are being realistic when it comes to things like mental issues where a much more high school attitude is prevalent in North American society. Your nation and my nation and most nations out there still just don't get it. If anyone gets sidelined, ostracized and cast out from regular society it is people battling mental illness.

[1bad65]

And the expert speaks... :rolleyes:

[Drake]

Again... more foolishness.

We have a 4-star general who's been getting treated for PTSD. He started getting the treatment for it when he was a 2-star.

And you don't understand promotions. Not even the first bit of it. Stop talking like you do. It DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE NOBODY SEES OR KNOWS ABOUT IT. Since you clearly know how this works... Until CPT, nobody looks at anything. You are promoted along a timeline. Once you are up for CPT, a centralized board off at HRC looks at your ORB, and, more likely than not, you'll make CPT. MAJ is a sure bet right now as well, along with very high selection rates for LTC and even COL. Again, these people don't know you, and they certainly have NO way of checking your medical records. If they did break the law and did that, then they'd go to jail. We had a company commander almost get in trouble before his superiors managed to shut him down. Didn't matter, because the medical clinic refused his request anyway.

Oh, and you pointed out... what... two instances? Out of tens of thousands of officers? So, you tell me... what's the ratio of bad apples to good ones, then?

Seriously... opinions are fine, but stop making up facts when you have active duty on here ready to call out your BS.

[1bad65]

Seriously... opinions are fine, but stop making up facts when you have active duty on here ready to call out your BS.

"When most people are confronted with facts contrary to their opinions, they at least consider changing their opinions. Ward Churchill simply manufactures more agreeable facts." -Jim Paine

Looks like David went to the Ward Churchill School of Debate. ;)

[David Jamieson]

Again... more foolishness.

We have a 4-star general who's been getting treated for PTSD. He started getting the treatment for it when he was a 2-star.

And you don't understand promotions. Not even the first bit of it. Stop talking like you do. It DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE NOBODY SEES OR KNOWS ABOUT IT. Since you clearly know how this works... Until CPT, nobody looks at anything. You are promoted along a timeline. Once you are up for CPT, a centralized board off at HRC looks at your ORB, and, more likely than not, you'll make CPT. MAJ is a sure bet right now as well, along with very high selection rates for LTC and even COL. Again, these people don't know you, and they certainly have NO way of checking your medical records. If they did break the law and did that, then they'd go to jail. We had a company commander almost get in trouble before his superiors managed to shut him down. Didn't matter, because the medical clinic refused his request anyway.

Oh, and you pointed out... what... two instances? Out of tens of thousands of officers? So, you tell me... what's the ratio of bad apples to good ones, then?

Seriously... opinions are fine, but stop making up facts when you have active duty on here ready to call out your BS.



Dude, what are you talking about. So what you're a grunt. Big effin deal. You don't seem to understand the reality of human nature as much as you understand your friggin rule book.

My statements were in regards to how humans operate in general, not according to what your rule book for coduct states.

If you can't see how the human factor effects stuff, then you are already lost. Don't bother speaking to the issue again until you clear that group think propaganda noise from your head. lol

gimme a break.

and 1 bad, suck it alright. Quit being a little dog trying to buddy up with anybody who fopr a fraction of a second for whatever reason agrees with you.

your sycophantic ways destroy any argument you had on top of your extremely flawed premises, projections and perceptions. :p

[1bad65]

Dude, what are you talking about. So what you're a grunt. Big effin deal.

But the "grunt" has military experience, and thus speaks from experience. What's your military experience?

[1bad65]

your sycophantic ways destroy any argument you had on top of your extremely flawed premises, projections and perceptions. :p

But at least I'm not making up facts, unlike you.

[Drake]

Do you even know what a grunt is? I don't think you do, because I'm not one. Namecalling and condescension when everything else fails, eh? :D

[Pork Chop]

just went through suicide prevention training the other week on base.
i've now got 2 wingmen that have my back
who woulda thought? a lowly contractor like me? :)

fyi - this stuff is being openly discussed at all levels and is being addressed.

[SAAMAG]

What the hell are you people dribbling about? Drake is military, and spot on with his facts. I was military as well and can second his words. BTW...an officer is the polar opposite of a grunt.

I don't understand why people continue to debate things they don't know anything about simply to save face of a fuggin internet forum.

[SoCo KungFu]

Dude, what are you talking about. So what you're a grunt. Big effin deal. You don't seem to understand the reality of human nature as much as you understand your friggin rule book.

My statements were in regards to how humans operate in general, not according to what your rule book for coduct states.

If you can't see how the human factor effects stuff, then you are already lost. Don't bother speaking to the issue again until you clear that group think propaganda noise from your head. lol

gimme a break.

and 1 bad, suck it alright. Quit being a little dog trying to buddy up with anybody who fopr a fraction of a second for whatever reason agrees with you.

your sycophantic ways destroy any argument you had on top of your extremely flawed premises, projections and perceptions. :p

Seriously, sometimes you have good ideas, but here you're not even in the ballpark. You don't have a f'n clue what you're talking about. And as to what you think you know about how humans operate in general, kindly link your sociology degree or some other such qualifying factor. You're really out on a limb with this and its about to break.

[ghostexorcist]

I had some major anger issues during the latter part of my service because I was stop-lossed. I was felling pretty depressed too, so I asked for a referral to mental health services. I wasn't trying to get chaptered out or anything, I just felt like I needed to talk to someone. One of the sergeants had to escort me over there because I guess it was policy that anyone with such a referral had to be watched in case they wanted to hurt themselves. Now, even if my records were sealed from the higher ups, the fact that I had a referral and an escort no doubt cast a negative light on me. Much like many units, mine was all about appearances. We had to be the strongest, the fastest, and have the most awards. Therefore, I knew my upward climb in the ranks would have been hindered by this (at least in my own unit) if I had decided to re-up. Thank goodness the stop-loss let up a short time after that.

Drake, I think you are being a bit too harsh on some of the people here. It is obvious that they are not up on military protocol. Just calmly explain what the reality is. There is no reason to start a flaming contest.

This thread reminds me of something that happened on Ft. Bragg (where I was stationed) several years ago. I believe it had something to do with soldiers returning from over seas and murdering their spouses and then killing themselves. If I'm not mistaken, I think they said the soldiers went nuts because of some pills they were taking. Well, that was one excuse given at the time. If that was the true cause, I'm one lucky s.o.b. I think the pills the afflicted soldiers took were also given to my unit when we deployed. Several other soldiers and I decided not to take them for some reason I don't remember. Does anyone else remember this?

[David Jamieson]

Seriously, sometimes you have good ideas, but here you're not even in the ballpark. You don't have a f'n clue what you're talking about. And as to what you think you know about how humans operate in general, kindly link your sociology degree or some other such qualifying factor. You're really out on a limb with this and its about to break.

oh really? No clue eh? Ok, yeah I guess you group think guys have it all sewn up in regards to the psychology of humans.

whatever, you may think what you like and no, I don't know the minutia of military protocol as practiced today, but I do know that if someone thinks the US military is open and such and is a humanitarian outfit that has the best interests of it's charges in mind and wants to looks after it's own as far as health etc is concerned then I suggest you take your mug out of the koolaid and go visit a veterans hospital and first hand get a look at what guys are having to deal with at the hands of their compassionate and understanding superiors.

Give me a break. Thanks.

Being a soldier does not make you expert in the question at hand. Being an apologist for the US military makes one look like even more of a shill than perhaps they intend to be.

My mind and your mind aren't different because you're in the army. To even go there is monumentally stupid and to think that understanding protocol alleviates the human condition is further nonsense.

you think every one is open about it? Shyte man, the US military can't even get past the gay question! How the heck are they going to be able to deal with 6000 suicides a year? Are they gonna blame all that on being away from loved ones?

Prison has a lower rate of suicide (us prisons run at about 17 per 100,000 and the military is tacking at 20.4 per 100,000). Smarten up and quit talking shyte just cause you got some fatigues on your back. That means nothing and you know it in regards to the question at hand.

[SoCo KungFu]

oh really? No clue eh? Ok, yeah I guess you group think guys have it all sewn up in regards to the psychology of humans.

whatever, you may think what you like and no, I don't know the minutia of military protocol as practiced today, but I do know that if someone thinks the US military is open and such and is a humanitarian outfit that has the best interests of it's charges in mind and wants to looks after it's own as far as health etc is concerned then I suggest you take your mug out of the koolaid and go visit a veterans hospital and first hand get a look at what guys are having to deal with at the hands of their compassionate and understanding superiors.

Give me a break. Thanks.

Being a soldier does not make you expert in the question at hand. Being an apologist for the US military makes one look like even more of a shill than perhaps they intend to be.

My mind and your mind aren't different because you're in the army. To even go there is monumentally stupid and to think that understanding protocol alleviates the human condition is further nonsense.

you think every one is open about it? Shyte man, the US military can't even get past the gay question! How the heck are they going to be able to deal with 6000 suicides a year? Are they gonna blame all that on being away from loved ones?

Prison has a lower rate of suicide (us prisons run at about 17 per 100,000 and the military is tacking at 20.4 per 100,000). Smarten up and quit talking shyte just cause you got some fatigues on your back. That means nothing and you know it in regards to the question at hand.

*******, me being involved in health care makes me more of an expert than anyone else here on the issue. Second hand only to mental health personnel, and yes there actually IS an entire career field of trained health care workers specifically educated on dealing with issues of suicide and how to properly treat members suffering from such issues, and RETURN them to duty. Imagine that huh? An entire job of helping those who are suffering from depression. But no you're right, the military doesn't care at all about its people.

WTF sense does it make to lose members because they needed help? You have no clue just how familial a military unit is. And economically, do you know how much money it takes to train even just one lowly "grunt," as you so liked to term? It makes no sense in any fashion to lose that experience, nor the money to replace that individual.

This isn't the 40's. We've come a long way in understanding how to best treat those suffering from depression and thoughts of suicide. The fact that everyone posting here who has served is telling you you're wrong just shows how clueless you are on the issue. So you can keep spouting off your ******* antimilitary bias in this issue you haven't two ****s on what's up or down, you just show your ignorance. For all the talk about drinking kool-aid, your whack job conspiracy theories are only shadowed by Uki and HW8.

Ghost, I'm sorry for you troubles. Man that had to be difficult on you. People are especially vulnerable in that time when they do come forward, subjecting themselves to the possible opinions of those they should choose to tell. But I assure you that providing an escort for you is simply procedure. That time between reporting and making it to treatment is one of the highest risk times for people to flee, due to the same insecurities you yourself experienced. But it was never a matter of a sealed record. Your referring isn't even a part of your permanent records, at least not since I've been in. Any issues you faced from you unit members should have been reported, as that is NOT what the military deems to be appropriate. A great deal of resources are being used in trying to combat this type of negativity and to promote proper education and prevention. And in the event prevention fails, proper treatment. Its difficult fighting off perceptions of the past and your concerns are notable. But this is not how the military is run in present day. Your experience would have been valued. A lot of individuals going through what you have experienced actually in turn become advocates themselves, using that experience to benefit others. It in no way marks shame on their record. In fact in becoming available to their brothers in arms, reflects positively to their future advancement. But again in no way does any of this become public knowledge unless you take the course of revealing it yourself.

Finally,

I am asking the backbone of our Army, our NCO Corps, and other green-tab leaders and supervisors, to troop the line, walk through the motor-pool, stop by the barracks, eat a meal in the dining facility, and visit the guard post at midnight. Look each and every Soldier in the eye. Convey the message that each one is valued by our Army, their families and friends, and our Nation. Remind Soldiers that their Army remains committed to help, support and assist them to meet hardships head-on, no matter the struggle, stressor, or challenge.
-Gen Peter Chiarelli
Vice Chief of Staff
Jan 2010

[ghostexorcist]

Ghost, I'm sorry for you troubles. Man that had to be difficult on you. People are especially vulnerable in that time when they do come forward, subjecting themselves to the possible opinions of those they should choose to tell. But I assure you that providing an escort for you is simply procedure. That time between reporting and making it to treatment is one of the highest risk times for people to flee, due to the same insecurities you yourself experienced. But it was never a matter of a sealed record. Your referring isn't even a part of your permanent records, at least not since I've been in. Any issues you faced from you unit members should have been reported, as that is NOT what the military deems to be appropriate. A great deal of resources are being used in trying to combat this type of negativity and to promote proper education and prevention. And in the event prevention fails, proper treatment. Its difficult fighting off perceptions of the past and your concerns are notable. But this is not how the military is run in present day. Your experience would have been valued. A lot of individuals going through what you have experienced actually in turn become advocates themselves, using that experience to benefit others. It in no way marks shame on their record. In fact in becoming available to their brothers in arms, reflects positively to their future advancement. But again in no way does any of this become public knowledge unless you take the course of revealing it yourself.
I served from 2000 - 2003, most of it in the 82nd Airborne, and 9/11 was my one year anniversary in the military. I went over seas in early 2003 when the whole mess kicked off. I was stop-lossed for almost half a year. It really sucked!

Yes, I would have definitely raised some flags about my unit's underhanded ways if I had stayed in and met with prejudice. Most of the time, people would just transfer to a new unit. They couldn't handle all of the B.S. The number that transferred did not reflect the total that tried.

Speaking of image, we once did a division-wide run (something like 14,000 people) and we were told if we fell out to flip our company shirts inside out in order to avoid embarrassing them. I was joking around with some friends and said that I was going to fall out, crawl on the sidewalk, and start screaming how I had a hang nail and that I had failed my company. That would have gone over really well! The actual run sucked because we had to deal with the "accordion effect" the entire time. There is nothing like switching up between a light jog to death sprints every few minutes.

[Kansuke]

oh really? No clue eh? Ok, yeah I guess you group think guys have it all sewn up in regards to the psychology of humans.

whatever, you may think what you like and no, I don't know the minutia of military protocol as practiced today, but I do know that if someone thinks the US military is open and such and is a humanitarian outfit that has the best interests of it's charges in mind and wants to looks after it's own as far as health etc is concerned then I suggest you take your mug out of the koolaid and go visit a veterans hospital and first hand get a look at what guys are having to deal with at the hands of their compassionate and understanding superiors.

Give me a break. Thanks.

Being a soldier does not make you expert in the question at hand. Being an apologist for the US military makes one look like even more of a shill than perhaps they intend to be.

My mind and your mind aren't different because you're in the army. To even go there is monumentally stupid and to think that understanding protocol alleviates the human condition is further nonsense.

Smarten up and quit talking shyte just cause you got some fatigues on your back. That means nothing and you know it in regards to the question at hand.



?!

You are trying to tell someone you admit has more knowledge and experience in the subject (by miles) that you know better because you claim to be an expert on 'human nature'? What the hell are you smoking?

[1bad65]

Being a soldier does not make you expert in the question at hand.

But apparently, not being a soldier does make you an expert in the question at hand. :rolleyes:

[Drake]

Actually, I'm pretty good at understanding PTSD, suicidal behaviors, and understanding if my soldiers are having problems. I don't have a phD or anything, but given the unique situation of battlefield stress, I'd say I am better qualified than a number of civilians... including those with letters and stuff after their names, to discuss the peculiarities of wartime issues.

I know for a FACT that I'm better qualified than you, though.

[David Jamieson]

Actually, I'm pretty good at understanding PTSD, suicidal behaviors, and understanding if my soldiers are having problems. I don't have a phD or anything, but given the unique situation of battlefield stress, I'd say I am better qualified than a number of civilians... including those with letters and stuff after their names, to discuss the peculiarities of wartime issues.

I know for a FACT that I'm better qualified than you, though.

I don't give a flying rats ass about what your qualifications are.

You simply need to tell me why there are 6000 suicides a year in the US mil and don't come up with "away from loved ones"

again, I'll reiterate. Prison pops in teh US are at 17 per 100k The US military is @ 20 per100k

so, with your great qualifications and your deeper understanding of human beings for whatever reaons, you tell me.

[Kansuke]

I don't give a flying rats ass about what your qualifications are.



Maybe you should

[sanjuro_ronin]

....I've been thinking in response to the closed thread. Soldiers don't want to get psychological help from the military because they (themselves and top brass) think this act makes them look weak. The psychological help will go on their record and any promotion board will see this as a weakness and an inability to lead soldiers under duress. If a soldier is a career officer, this is even more of a risk because an officer has to be promoted or leave the service or become an NCO.

Next, a soldier is trained to deal with a belligerent in one manner, terminating it's physical existence. When some soldiers have a belligerent in his head, they deal with it as such.

Suicide is a VERY complex issue and that is an understatement.
Some people are probably more predisposed to it than others.
Certain religious beliefs have some effect also.
PTSD is thrown around a lot today and while I think that many people DO have it, I also think that many people need to realize that are at war and that war is Hell.
its the ones that fall through the cracks that can be pushed ( or fall) into suicide.
Guerrilla based warfare is a beast of its one and fighting people in their backyard takes a very high toll on ones mind and emotions.

I don't think there is an answer per say, not a "one size fits all" answer, that's for sure.

I think that people need to understand that certain wars well drive desperate people to desparate measure on ALL sides of the fence.

[David Jamieson]

Maybe you should

pipe down chubby and try to get out in the world more.

[Kansuke]

pipe down chubby and try to get out in the world more.


Really determined to make an ass of yourself on this thread, huh?

[Drake]

I don't give a flying rats ass about what your qualifications are.

You simply need to tell me why there are 6000 suicides a year in the US mil and don't come up with "away from loved ones"

again, I'll reiterate. Prison pops in teh US are at 17 per 100k The US military is @ 20 per100k

so, with your great qualifications and your deeper understanding of human beings for whatever reaons, you tell me.

Last I checked you are barely qualified to assess yourself.

And last I checked it's a lot harder to kill yourself in prison than in a job where you have a weapon and ammo readily available at all times.

At least THINK before you post.

[Drake]

You know, David... you've really been taking this all quite personally, and now most of your posts are nothing but insults with a smidge of crazed opinion.

You should take a vacation or something.. you are freaking out...

[David Jamieson]

Last I checked you are barely qualified to assess yourself.

And last I checked it's a lot harder to kill yourself in prison than in a job where you have a weapon and ammo readily available at all times.

At least THINK before you post.

Where did you check?

Are you apologizing for the rate of suicides because it's easier to do it while in a military unit?

Are you thinking before you post?

[David Jamieson]

You know, David... you've really been taking this all quite personally, and now most of your posts are nothing but insults with a smidge of crazed opinion.

You should take a vacation or something.. you are freaking out...

I really don't need a vacation anymore than anyone else.

I find it interesting that you would stand behind an organization and make excuses for something that is obviously a horrible and terrible series of events that aren't being curtailed in any effective way as that is self evident.

And you call me crazed and opinionated?

Look in a mirror dude. Seriously. And yeah, I am against war, I am against the mission in Afghanistan and I am against the occupation of Iraq and consider it a criminal act on the part of the USA to go there and to continue to be there.

So, you may think that's crazy. But if you support these occupational wars and the farce and quagmires that they are, then I submit that it is you who are the crazy one.

[Drake]

because you are the super-patriotic freedom fighting liberation for the people ultra mega anti-corporation peaceful warrior and I'm part of the nefarious evil backstabbing exploiting of indigneous tribal people oil-greedy expansionist white man destroys everyone else club?


You lose points by lacing your loaded arguments with adjectives that clearly show your bias. I thought they taught you not to do that in high school speech class. Guess I was wrong. Pathetic. Then again, I suppose this is the worst place to discuss politics. You either have liberals so far off the deep end that they think UFOs are Illuminati warships sent to scan our brains or you have people who recite Rush Limbaugh like it was scripture. I may be the only middle of the road, logical, not taking a political side person here.

[Kansuke]

I really don't need a vacation anymore than anyone else.

I find it interesting that you would stand behind an organization and make excuses for something that is obviously a horrible and terrible series of events that aren't being curtailed in any effective way as that is self evident.

And you call me crazed and opinionated?

Look in a mirror dude. Seriously. And yeah, I am against war, I am against the mission in Afghanistan and I am against the occupation of Iraq and consider it a criminal act on the part of the USA to go there and to continue to be there.

So, you may think that's crazy. But if you support these occupational wars and the farce and quagmires that they are, then I submit that it is you who are the crazy one.

:rolleyes:

Just another irrelevant lefty windbag.

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes:

Just another irrelevant lefty windbag.

clearly a tubby juvenile in his mom's basement who needs to get out and see the world due to his myopic view of it being obscured by a dirty basement window and only the ability to see the top of a tree and some sky. Your world is small and ugly.

Mine is wide and beautiful, with all the ugly relegated to little motes of dust not unlike yourself.

:)

[Kansuke]

Mine is wide and beautiful



No one wants to hear how you advertise your ass on gay match making sites, just stop being such an idiot here.