Body Structure Functional Application

[chusauli]

"I will say the majority of WCK does not use the Body Structure as I use it. (Robert Chu)
..................................


***I understand that you have various testing methodolgies for what you call body structure, but I'm not addressing that right now.

What I'd like to know is exactly what in the body structure that you use makes a difference in actual fight application?

What's different about it that can be seen (or felt) in actual fight application?

And that presumably makes it more effective than every other wing chun system - precisely because they are not using your specific approach to body structure in fight application?

I took this out of the boxing vs. WCK thread and created a new thread.

Victor, an advanced practitioner like you should already know the benefits of structure, so I assume you are playing Devil's Advocate. The benefits are:

1) Power
2) Leverage
3) to use the body optimally in unison or in parts
4) Non-telegraphic delivery system
5) control of the opponent's balance
6) opening of the "door" through pushing, pulling, wedging (i.e like pummeling, you set up your next moves)
7) my system is easily replicable/duplicable, hence "scientific"
8) I don't just talk one part (i.e. elbows) but look at the organism as a whole
9) my system doesn't change any WCK forms, just makes them better
10) my methodology fits in with all branches of WCK, since it is not based on form, As Hawkins said to me, "True WCK is formless."
11) Its not about the show or "style", or how it looks like, but the power signature
12) there is a great advantage with weapons, for example, you learn to properly use the body in conjunction with the long pole or knives - you need proper levelage when doing Tiu Gwun or Yee Ji Dao
13) Application is your guide - so which opponent are you applying structure to? That is your work, not mine. In fact, that is every WCK student's work.
14) you can use body structure greatly against people with little or no structure; you will be the one in control. Of course, against equals, it becomes a contest of who is the one who uses it best at the moment
15) I do not have to had Muay Thai, Boixing, or BJJ delivery base to make it work, making it a pseudo WCK or JKD. I keep WCK pure - it is about making WCK work.
16) In most WCK you learn structure, but its more about the shape and looking like WCK...not necessarily the function of the structure


In my way, you are studying how to apply structure, make it work, and test it out - this way, you optimally use WCK

Its quite possible everyone in WCK can use my methods and keep their style, or even learn my method without having to learn WCK forms and system, just merge it with their fighting style.

In Traditional Chinese Martial arts, 1 component represents the complete teaching, one does not not having to learn everything piecemeal. I can teach 3 things that would change your perspective immediately. Even if you did not learn all of my curriculum and teaching methodology, you could still use my method immediately.

Finally, when you develop something "new", you don't just throw a name on it (a la JKD), you have to test it. My students and grandstudents have tested it out using my templates in the competition arena. In this way, we know it works.

[TenTigers]

Do you have any specific drills that enable a studnet to maintain structure when being pressured? Often this is the first to go.

[YungChun]

Do you have any specific drills that enable a studnet to maintain structure when being pressured? Often this is the first to go.

Even the strongest structure can be broken.. Thus you use this force (the one breaking it) to form a new one..

[wtxs]

Even the strongest structure can be broken.. Thus you use this force (the one breaking it) to form a new one..

To establish an new structure by redirection, akin to some element of what Hendrik coined the boomerang effect?

[YungChun]

To establish an new structure by redirection, akin to some element of what Hendrik coined the boomerang effect?

Not familiar with Hendrik's idea.. But it sounds similar.. The force is breaking your structure or shape, so you use this force to make a new shape.. The purpose of the structure is to break his, so if yours is weakening (because it is breaking) then you must make a new one (the weakening one will never do it) to break his. The most efficient way to do this is to use his force to make your new structure..which should then be immediately focused on breaking his, most likely from a new angle..

[sihing]

I took this out of the boxing vs. WCK thread and created a new thread.

Victor, an advanced practitioner like you should already know the benefits of structure, so I assume you are playing Devil's Advocate. The benefits are:

1) Power
2) Leverage
3) to use the body optimally in unison or in parts
4) Non-telegraphic delivery system
5) control of the opponent's balance
6) opening of the "door" through pushing, pulling, wedging (i.e like pummeling, you set up your next moves)
7) my system is easily replicable/duplicable, hence "scientific"
8) I don't just talk one part (i.e. elbows) but look at the organism as a whole
9) my system doesn't change any WCK forms, just makes them better
10) my methodology fits in with all branches of WCK, since it is not based on form, As Hawkins said to me, "True WCK is formless."
11) Its not about the show or "style", or how it looks like, but the power signature
12) there is a great advantage with weapons, for example, you learn to properly use the body in conjunction with the long pole or knives - you need proper levelage when doing Tiu Gwun or Yee Ji Dao
13) Application is your guide - so which opponent are you applying structure to? That is your work, not mine. In fact, that is every WCK student's work.
14) you can use body structure greatly against people with little or no structure; you will be the one in control. Of course, against equals, it becomes a contest of who is the one who uses it best at the moment
15) I do not have to had Muay Thai, Boixing, or BJJ delivery base to make it work, making it a pseudo WCK or JKD. I keep WCK pure - it is about making WCK work.
16) In most WCK you learn structure, but its more about the shape and looking like WCK...not necessarily the function of the structure


In my way, you are studying how to apply structure, make it work, and test it out - this way, you optimally use WCK

Its quite possible everyone in WCK can use my methods and keep their style, or even learn my method without having to learn WCK forms and system, just merge it with their fighting style.

In Traditional Chinese Martial arts, 1 component represents the complete teaching, one does not not having to learn everything piecemeal. I can teach 3 things that would change your perspective immediately. Even if you did not learn all of my curriculum and teaching methodology, you could still use my method immediately.

Finally, when you develop something "new", you don't just throw a name on it (a la JKD), you have to test it. My students and grandstudents have tested it out using my templates in the competition arena. In this way, we know it works.

Very good post...and I agree with all your points, especially point #16, and this is the main problem IMO with most WC out there, they are trying to look like the training, the drills and the shapes, becoming robots essentially. And when this is the case, and things are not working for you when you try to apply your WC skills in sparring or fighting, you look elsewhere to fill in the gaps or perceived deficiency in your WC skill set.

All the training can do for you is listed in the points above. The thing is not all WC has this, they may think they do but they don't and it can be recognized when they move or show a video of themselves sparring or fighting. Point #13 - Application is your guide, what Robert says is true, no instructor/Sifu or coach can give you application skills, which is your ability to use what the training has given you (a set of skills) to a degree of effectiveness. There is a seperation between training and application. An instructor can give you the ability to develop the tools, like Robert says he can teach you 3 things and change your perspective immediately. I've experienced this as well, not in Roberts method but with the people I learn from. But it is up to the individual to become skilled at applying them, and that skill has nothing to do with how the shape of your tan sau appears (if it appears in the application at all), nor how good your YJKYMA is, rather it is about how well you control/strike and apply your tools to your opponent or partner in sparring. Also, your ability to apply these tools is based on two factors, your skills and the skills of your opponent. Like Robert says, against someone with little to know structure and skill it's easy, against some with these abilites things change, and it's in your ability to feel, sense, change and apply that makes the difference with people of equal or better skill, if you can do all of that faster you will defeat him.

Also, each individual practitoner has to determine what their intent is with their training. Are they doing it because they love it or because they want to fight with it vs other fighters, different intentions will bring about a different skill level and ability. It's okay to change your intent as you become more mature with age and experience, as who really wants to be a fighter for their whole lives when there is so much more to appreciate about the art than that..just my POV:)

James

[sihing]

Not familiar with Hendrik's idea.. But it sounds similar.. The force is breaking your structure or shape, so you use this force to make a new shape.. The purpose of the structure is to break his, so if yours is weakening (because it is breaking) then you must make a new one (the weakening one will never do it) to break his. The most efficient way to do this is to use his force to make your new structure..which should then be immediately focused on breaking his, most likely from a new angle..


Actually one of the skills learned is to recognize when your own structure is being broken. When you have a developed structure within you, you also should have the ability to sense when it is broken. The more you practice the better you can sense this happening to you, and the better you can change. The ability to change quickly is a skill not really talked about. If I can change faster than you, even if you have a better structure than me, I can still win. With change comes sensitivity and feeling, combined with an adaptable structure and natural flow with it all.

The shapes are just guides in the beginning, so the learner can visualize and realize what they are doing on a basic level. Later on the shapes are not as important nor are they as formed as they are in lets say a SNT level person. Everything is exaggerated in the beginning to bring about "Young Ideas", later those young ideas become mature ideas and change. Going from one fully formed shape to another is way too slow, you form it only to the point you need it to at that moment and situation, to achieve the goal of hitting with an controlling element with that hit. If the control is not there that's fine too but it's more of a gamble as you might trade with your opponent. All fighting in the end is gambling, just that we try to sway the odds more in our favor with that controlling ability within our strikes and our ability to chase his Center Axis or spine.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

I understand what you're saying, Robert...but you see, I (and quite a few others) can say the same things about the wing chun we do.

For example, you listed the following, amoungst other things:

1) Power
2) Leverage
3) to use the body optimally in unison or in parts
4) Non-telegraphic delivery system
5) control of the opponent's balance


***OKAY, so TWC does these very same things with the "body structure" we use.

So the question is not about your tests - but rather it's about how does the "body structure" you use differ from what TWC does, for example, and how do those differences translate into actual better fighting efficiency?

[SavvySavage]

Victor,
This is what I think you're trying to ask. You are asking how his "body structure" makes him different in sparring than other wing chun people. Would someone watching him spar be able to tell the difference? Would his sparring partner recognize this "body structure" a$$ kicking from a not so body structured a$$ kicking?

Is that what you're trying to ask him? If not than I may not be the only confused person.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .
15) I do not have to had Muay Thai, Boixing, or BJJ delivery base to make it work, making it a pseudo WCK or JKD. I keep WCK pure - it is about making WCK work.
. . . . .
I can see knowing ground work but I definitely agree that with regards to standup that you don't need boxing, or Muay Thai, etc. You should be able to make your WCK work.

[Ultimatewingchun]

...which has nothing to do with boxing, kickboxing, MT, or anything else - other than wing chun. So let's not get sidetracked regarding what I've said in the past about wing chun being a short range fighting system.

And I will make the question as simple as possible, since I know that Robert attended two different week-long TWC seminars back in 1984 given by William Cheung - as I was there as well.

So let's assume that long range/short range differences are not in play. There is no long distance whatsoever.

Two opponent's begin in a non contact position, but only maybe about 20 inches apart from each other. To put it another way, they are both within one simple half step of being able to deliver strikes, bridges, whatever.

So given what you know about TWC, Robert...and of course your present system of "body structure" wing chun...

what is it about YOUR system's body structure - as opposed to the TWC body structure...

that is not only different, but that would result in a better fighting efficiency?

....Very simple question....

[Knifefighter]

Body structure = more b.s. from a bunch of theoretical non-fighters.

Every physical activity has the concept of body structure... from football, to baseball, to wrestling, to bjj, to judo, to basketball, to ballroom dance.

Body structure also changes depending on the circumstances.

Beginners in most activities pretty much learn it and then never have to give too much thought to it again after they get up into the intermediate levels.

Something is seriously wrong if "advanced" practitioners are spending a bunch of time worrying about structure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude, you gotta trademark that "theoretical non-fighters) thing, its gold, gold I tell you !!!H
HW8 shoudl have trademarked "Authentic TCMA" and he didn't, don't make the same mistake !!

[TenTigers]

I'm gonna jump on the "Glorified TCMAist" TM

[m1k3]

OK, I am going to show my ignorance but WTF is everyone going on about.

I did WCK but only for a short time. I have also wrestled, boxed, served in the Marine Corps, played football, baseball and now do no-gi BJJ and I have no clue what everyone is going on about.

Is it how you stand, your balance, positioning of body parts, what? Is anything like setting you base in bjj or wrestling? And if so doesn't it change as you or your opponent move?

I am so confused!!!! :confused::confused::confused:

[Frost]

OK, I am going to show my ignorance but WTF is everyone going on about.

I did WCK but only for a short time. I have also wrestled, boxed, served in the Marine Corps, played football, baseball and now do no-gi BJJ and I have no clue what everyone is going on about.

Is it how you stand, your balance, positioning of body parts, what? Is anything like setting you base in bjj or wrestling? And if so doesn't it change as you or your opponent move?

I am so confused!!!! :confused::confused::confused:

Same here I’d like to know as well, for an art that is usually advertised as simple and effective its practitioners can sure complicate the most basic things. Structure is taught in most athletic endeavours in the first class and reinforced and tested through practise....weight lifters learn the correct structure for lifting weights in the first few lessons.....boxers the same, wrestlers the same ....is it reinforced through cues whilst training in the beginning but this doesn’t take long to become second nature.....how can people make something so simple so complicated

[YungChun]

Same here I’d like to know as well, for an art that is usually advertised as simple and effective its practitioners can sure complicate the most basic things. Structure is taught in most athletic endeavours in the first class and reinforced and tested through practise....weight lifters learn the correct structure for lifting weights in the first few lessons.....boxers the same, wrestlers the same ....is it reinforced through cues whilst training in the beginning but this doesn’t take long to become second nature.....how can people make something so simple so complicated

First of all Knifefighter beat you to this post..

Second, since when is any of this kind of BS new to TMA?

[YungChun]

Is it how you stand, your balance, positioning of body parts, what? Is anything like setting you base in bjj or wrestling? And if so doesn't it change as you or your opponent move?



That's true... It's not static, yet you would think otherwise from many of the posts..

The issue stems from the emphasis on the use of leveraged positions and vectored energy issuing, use of position and breaking all of it down in the opponent so you can attack and control.

[Knifefighter]

how can people make something so simple so complicated

Theoretical non-fighters [tm] looking for the magic bullet.

[YungChun]

If it was that simple there would be nothing to discuss...

[Knifefighter]

The issue stems from the emphasis on the use of leveraged positions and vectored energy issuing, use of position and breaking all of it down in the opponent so you can attack and control.

LOL... That would be more theoretical non-fighter [tm] theorizing for pretty much everything you are attempting to accomplish in any fighting style.

[SAAMAG]

Even non-theoretical fighters have tons of theory and technique to talk about. Go have a look at any MMA forum.

By the by, I do agree that the talk of structure or body structure is somewhat odd, because it really isn't that complicated of a subject.

[YungChun]

Even non-theoretical fighters have tons of theory and technique to talk about. Go have a look at any MMA forum.

By the by, I do agree that the talk of structure or body structure is somewhat odd, because it really isn't that complicated of a subject.

So go ahead and lay it all out (VT use of structure in fighting) in a nice paragraph or two... :D

(anyone?)

[anerlich]

Dude, you gotta trademark that "theoretical non-fighters) thing, its gold, gold I tell you !!!H
HW8 shoudl have trademarked "Authentic TCMA" and he didn't, don't make the same mistake !!

I think Dale would be up against Terence if he tried to trademark that term. If T wasn't the originator, he probably has a strong claim due to frequency of (over)use. And, unlike fighting, lawyering is something T has some experience in.

I saw HW8 as having more claims to "Glorified Kickboxing" and "MMA Knuckleheads", both of which he is welcome to.

[anerlich]

Is it how you stand, your balance, positioning of body parts, what? Is anything like setting you base in bjj or wrestling? And if so doesn't it change as you or your opponent move?


I don't think there's a lot more to it than that IMO. If you're (forgive the cliches) working in an alive fashion against a resisting opponent, you have little option but to pretty quickly learn how to adjust your posture and the way you move to manage that.

If you spent all day doing forms and prearranged stuff, then you might have the luxury of being able to overcomplicate things.


I do not have to had Muay Thai, Boixing, or BJJ delivery base to make it work, making it a pseudo WCK or JKD. I keep WCK pure - it is about making WCK work.


At least some of your students and grandstudents are studying BJJ. I believe from experience that the BJJ delivery base is enormously superior to "doing WCK on the ground" where groundfighting is concerned.

I'm less concerned with making WCK work or keeping it pure than I am with having an effective defense base, whatever its sources.

[YungChun]

I don't think there's a lot more to it than that IMO. If you're (forgive the cliches) working in an alive fashion against a resisting opponent, you have little option but to pretty quickly learn how to adjust your posture and the way you move to manage that.


There has to be guidance...someone who knows how to lead the way..

If you put scrub off the street up against a BJJ black belt..and have them roll, how long will it take the scrub to:

"quickly learn how to adjust your posture and the way you move to manage that"

Without good coaching?

And despite training (rolling) in an alive fashion?

[anerlich]

There has to be guidance...someone who knows how to lead the way..

If you put scrub off the street up against a BJJ black belt..and have them roll, how long will it take the scrub to:

"quickly learn how to adjust your posture and the way you move to manage that"

Without good coaching?

And despite training (rolling) in an alive fashion?


I can't argue with the need for guidance.

However, guidance and static structure tests without rolling will get you nowhere. And if the teacher never rolls, his guidance would be highly questionable.

IMO you learn more about effective structure in an hour of standup wrestling than you would in a year of static structure testing.

You need feedback. And the feedback you get from practice against a live opponent is worth multiple DVD's worth of lectures from a Sifu.

[YungChun]

I can't argue with the need for guidance.

However, guidance and static structure tests without rolling will get you nowhere. And if the teacher never rolls, his guidance would be highly questionable.

IMO you learn more about effective structure in an hour of standup wrestling than you would in a year of static structure testing.

You need feedback. And the feedback you get from practice against a live opponent is worth multiple DVD's worth of lectures from a Sifu.

I was never addressing some kind of static structure.. I don't see anything in VT as static.. The structure must be alive, structure in motion with dynamic adaptive change as the constant.. :)

Oh and who has the lock on the term Fantasy Foo? I like that one... :D

[anerlich]

I was never addressing some kind of static structure.. I don't see anything in VT as static.. The structure must be alive, structure in motion with dynamic adaptive change as the constant..

I know you weren't saying that.

I guess my point is that the finer points and deep philosophy of structure we go on and on about only have relevance if you're working in a (cliche alert) static fashion with dead patterns.

Most people training in alive systems don't have time for this deep deliberation because they're too busy doing it rather than meditating on it.

[YungChun]

I know you weren't saying that.

I guess my point is that the finer points and deep philosophy of structure we go on and on about only have relevance if you're working in a (cliche alert) static fashion with dead patterns.

Most people training in alive systems don't have time for this deep deliberation because they're too busy doing it rather than meditating on it.

I don't know Andrew... The tendency on any board is to hack apart anything and everything having to do with the subject ad infinitum IME.

Also, IMO it's a valid topic.. If anyone can share any info on VT use of structure that will help out someone's VT then great....

[chusauli]

I understand what you're saying, Robert...but you see, I (and quite a few others) can say the same things about the wing chun we do.

For example, you listed the following, amoungst other things:

1) Power
2) Leverage
3) to use the body optimally in unison or in parts
4) Non-telegraphic delivery system
5) control of the opponent's balance


***OKAY, so TWC does these very same things with the "body structure" we use.

So the question is not about your tests - but rather it's about how does the "body structure" you use differ from what TWC does, for example, and how do those differences translate into actual better fighting efficiency?


Victor,

Again, I believe you are playing devil's adviocate, because I cannot believe what you are asking. When you use it in proper range, there is a world of difference over a person who does not have body structure.

You should be able to see immediately in WCK one who has structure vs someone in WCK who has no structure.

Using Kali for example, if some one uses tapi-tapi and just uses an arm to parry the arm, it has no power in comparison to a Pak Sao with full body mechanics and vector force alignment.

If you just use your arm to Lop Da, you will not have any power. The one with body structure will throw his opponent to the ground or throw him at all angles.

Does that not translate into actual better fighting efficiency?

[Knifefighter]

Victor,

Again, I believe you are playing devil's adviocate, because I cannot believe what you are asking. When you use it in proper range, there is a world of difference over a person who does not have body structure.

You should be able to see immediately in WCK one who has structure vs someone in WCK who has no structure.

Using Kali for example, if some one uses tapi-tapi and just uses an arm to parry the arm, it has no power in comparison to a Pak Sao with full body mechanics and vector force alignment.

If you just use your arm to Lop Da, you will not have any power. The one with body structure will throw his opponent to the ground or throw him at all angles.

Does that not translate into actual better fighting efficiency?

So, basically, you are making a big deal about something that is used as a natural part of pretty much any athletic activity.

Do you think you can hit a baseball or tennis ball by using just your arms? Do you think you can throw a ball by using just your arms? Can a boxer throw a punch by just using his arm? Can a shot putter use just his arm?

The only time you see "just limb" movements is in activities in which power plays an insignificant role.

I'm really not getting why you are making a big deal about something that is a simple, natural part of learning any type of physical activity that requires power.

[sihing]

Same here I’d like to know as well, for an art that is usually advertised as simple and effective its practitioners can sure complicate the most basic things. Structure is taught in most athletic endeavours in the first class and reinforced and tested through practise....weight lifters learn the correct structure for lifting weights in the first few lessons.....boxers the same, wrestlers the same ....is it reinforced through cues whilst training in the beginning but this doesn’t take long to become second nature.....how can people make something so simple so complicated

Maybe in your experience this is so. I wrestled in public school, I never heard the term "structure", rather I learned moves and techniques, stand like this and when he does this you do that, no explaination really as to why we do these things and how the body functions better by doing it that way. I played and taught tennis, got pretty good at it and went to a world class training facility in Florida, I never heard the word "structure" mentioned, all we did was drill the basics, learned some strategy and played against one another.

I agree that WC was generally marketed as easy to learn. Some systems of WC are, as they are tailored to the general public in Mcdojo type schools, I worked and taught at a place for this for years. The majority of the students there (99%) were pure hobbist, never practicing at home nor thinking about it out of class, the remaining 1% excelled 500% better than the others. Over time I learned that WC is far from easy to learn, it is complex and hard to learn, maybe one of the hardest, but once you learn it is easy to exibit and bring forth within your own movement. Whether or not it is effective vs someone hell bent on hurting you is not something anyone here can answer, unless you have a crystal ball:)

The problem comes when we intellecutalize it and try to explain to one another what we are experiencing and learning on the physcial level. Human beings have a natural tendency to complicate whatever subject they come in contact with, finance, nature, politics, religion, whatever.

.So, concerning WC, the basic idea in is to learn a skill set, that begins with a bodily structure that connects the whole body together as a unit, but a unit that is not fixed(static) nor rigid (stiff). Without the structure your actions have no foundation or ability to transfer power or energy into your movements, whether they are offensive or defensive.

I agree there are some esoteric ideas and theory's about it all. Since WC is pretty specific in it's application (we are basically infighters), we need to develop certain attributes to make it work for us. If I apply a boxers structure and mechanics but am in or around the clinch range it won't work, just like WC structure/mechanics don't work outside the clinch range...yes we can still use the prinicples of the system, but the physical part does not apply there (why use facing concepts on the outside when I need to utilize reach more so..).

Now for us in the beginning we don't want to clinch, grab, hold on to our opponent, rather we need to learn how to strike, and control thru the striking to KO our opponent from that close range. Sounds easy, but the reality is it isn't..Yes one can learn MT to function here, but we aren't talking about MT.

James

[Knifefighter]

Using Kali for example, if some one uses tapi-tapi and just uses an arm to parry the arm, it has no power in comparison to a Pak Sao with full body mechanics and vector force alignment.

BTW, you realize there are a variety of different structures right? And that the more you transition into a power-delivery structure, the more you lose from a defensive structure, right? Any structure always has strengths and weaknesses that are specific to the purposes of that structure.

[sihing]

So, basically, you are making a big deal about something that is used as a natural part of pretty much any athletic activity.

Do you think you can hit a baseball or tennis ball by using just your arms? Do you think you can throw a ball by using just your arms? Can a boxer throw a punch by just using his arm? Can a shot putter use just his arm?

The only time you see "just limb" movements is in activities in which power plays an insignificant role.

I'm really not getting why you are making a big deal about something that is a simple, natural part of learning any type of physical activity that requires power.

Yes all these sports have "specific" body structures to function at a high level that is, and that is the difference. How many people play golf or tennis but do not function or play at a high level? Tons, mostly due to poor mechanics and not being taught the basics of how to hit the ball correctly, and even if they were taught they just don't have the ability to function that way.

As a tennis instructor and player I saw tons of people hitting the ball the wrong way, but still being able to get the ball over the net, but when they were matched up with someone with superior ability and skill at hitting the ball they were unsuccessful in dealing with that type of pressure.

For some reason I was a natural at hitting the ball from the baseline, but not so natural at volleying, so guess what I did, I stayed back and did what worked best for me. At a certain level of competition that worked well, at the higher levels not as good as my game had a hole in it.


Gotta run...
James

[Knifefighter]

I wrestled in public school, I never heard the term "structure", rather I learned moves and techniques, stand like this and when he does this you do that, no explaination really as to why we do these things and how the body functions better by doing it that way.

Yeah, functional activities simply teach you what works and kept things simple without a bunch of theoretical postulations. In wrestling, you learn to keep your center of gravity low, slightly on the balls of your feet, back straight, arms in, head up... perfect structure, perfectly simple.

Imagine that.

Does that fact that they didn't label it "structure" make it somehow different? Of course not.

[chusauli]

BTW, you realize there are a variety of different structures right? And that the more you transition into a power-delivery structure, the more you lose from a defensive structure, right? Any structure always has strengths and weaknesses that are specific to the purposes of that structure.

Absolutely.

[Knifefighter]

Yes all these sports have "specific" body structures to function at a high level that is, and that is the difference. How many people play golf or tennis but do not function or play at a high level? Tons, mostly due to poor mechanics and not being taught the basics of how to hit the ball correctly, and even if they were taught they just don't have the ability to function that way.

As a tennis instructor and player I saw tons of people hitting the ball the wrong way, but still being able to get the ball over the net, but when they were matched up with someone with superior ability and skill at hitting the ball they were unsuccessful in dealing with that type of pressure.

For some reason I was a natural at hitting the ball from the baseline, but not so natural at volleying, so guess what I did, I stayed back and did what worked best for me. At a certain level of competition that worked well, at the higher levels not as good as my game had a hole in it.


Gotta run...
James

And how do you think all of those high level people got to be higher level than the ones with "poor structure"? It sure wasn't by doing structure tests.

[SavvySavage]

In ba gua and hsing I students are told to do static standing postures, stake standing, for 10 minutes every day and then 20. There are some benefits martially. You do feel more rooted. Once you understand this rooted feeling I believe there is no use wasting time standing there for 20-40 minutes every day. You get the feeling and then you grab a kettle bell and work out with this alignment in mind. That's ONLY for the case in the MARTIAL part. Static standing has other benefits. I feel calmer, energized, mentally stable, and healthier after static standing. It's fine if you want to do it as a meditation for the benefits I just listed but don't kid yourself into thinking that standing there pretending to be an oak tree will give you martial skills.

I also don't believe in static posture testing. If someone moves in on me and my position sucks causing me to move I'm not going to try and turn into a stone gargoyle. I'm going to turn into a real gargoyle and fly to s better postion where I can beat him or her up. What's the point in standing there while some dude pushes me and I can't push back? Of course I'm going to fall!

[chusauli]

So, basically, you are making a big deal about something that is used as a natural part of pretty much any athletic activity.

Do you think you can hit a baseball or tennis ball by using just your arms? Do you think you can throw a ball by using just your arms? Can a boxer throw a punch by just using his arm? Can a shot putter use just his arm?

The only time you see "just limb" movements is in activities in which power plays an insignificant role.

I'm really not getting why you are making a big deal about something that is a simple, natural part of learning any type of physical activity that requires power.


You're absolutely correct - yet we have a great majority of TCMA who train without power! We call them "Fa Kuen Sou Toi" in Cantonese - "Flowery fists, embroidered legs". Who do you blame here?

I am not making a big deal out of it - I tell people it should be taught from day one.

[chusauli]

In ba gua and hsing I students are told to do static standing postures, stake standing, for 10 minutes every day and then 20. There are some benefits martially. You do feel more rooted. Once you understand this rooted feeling I believe there is no use wasting time standing there for 20-40 minutes every day. You get the feeling and then you grab a kettle bell and work out with this alignment in mind. That's ONLY for the case in the MARTIAL part. Static standing has other benefits. I feel calmer, energized, mentally stable, and healthier after static standing. It's fine if you want to do it as a meditation for the benefits I just listed but don't kid yourself into thinking that standing there pretending to be an oak tree will give you martial skills.

I also don't believe in static posture testing. If someone moves in on me and my position sucks causing me to move I'm not going to try and turn into a stone gargoyle. I'm going to turn into a real gargoyle and fly to s better postion where I can beat him or her up. What's the point in standing there while some dude pushes me and I can't push back? Of course I'm going to fall!

That's why you practice it dynamically!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Robert,

What I can't believe is how you're ducking my question.

You claim to know what TWC body structure is all about...

You claim to have come up with a different version of body structure...

You claim that your version is more fight efficient than other systems - and obviously that includes TWC...

but yet you refuse to explain how your version is different and more efficient.


Okey, dokey..............

[Knifefighter]

In ba gua and hsing I students are told to do static standing postures, stake standing, for 10 minutes every day and then 20. There are some benefits martially.

I also don't believe in static posture testing. If someone moves in on me and my position sucks causing me to move I'm not going to try and turn into a stone gargoyle. I'm going to turn into a real gargoyle and fly to s better postion where I can beat him or her up. What's the point in standing there while some dude pushes me and I can't push back? Of course I'm going to fall!

Standing in a static position makes you better at standing in a static position.

A static posture test makes you better at being able to maintain a specific posture when a force is applied to that specific position at specific angles.

The basics of human adaptation training don't change- specific adaptation to applied demand.

[chusauli]

And how do you think all of those high level people got to be higher level than the ones with "poor structure"? It sure wasn't by doing structure tests.

But it can be hit or miss. All I did was make sure you feel it. That's the job of the instructor/coach.

Some people studied WCK for 20 - 30 years and have no inkling. Maybe its because you are an outsider to WCK and have no idea how it is taught, nor have you ever taught the art to see how most beginners take what they are taught as lame. Stand in YJKYM? That sucks! Out the window it goes!

But then, what have you left? Just a bunch of hand traps added into a boxing structure. Oh, but wait! We'll call it JKD...

[Knifefighter]

Robert,

What I can't believe is how you're ducking my question.

You claim to know what TWC body structure is all about...

You claim to have come up with a different version of body structure...

You claim that your version is more fight efficient than other systems - and obviously that includes TWC...

but yet you refuse to explain how your version is different and more efficient.


Okey, dokey..............

I think he just explained it... and it makes a lot of sense.

That would also explain why Alan Orr's approach looks more like boxing/grappling and less like what many perceive to be WC... because it is more structurally sound in an environment where your goal is to inflict as much damage on your opponent as possible while receiving as little damage as possible.

[chusauli]

Robert,

What I can't believe is how you're ducking my question.

Ducking? I thought I answered them?


You claim to know what TWC body structure is all about...

Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.


You claim to have come up with a different version of body structure...

I would say that what I described above is different from TWC.


You claim that your version is more fight efficient than other systems - and obviously that includes TWC...

More fight efficient? I said it would give you better mechanics. Fighting is a matter of your experience, timing, and who you are fighting. You are talking about fighting, and I am talking components of a fighter. I told you the obvious advantage- Power. When you engage the body's largest muscles (in the butt and the legs) in everything you do, you have more drive. Why hit a person 10 times in a second, when once will do? Who wins a fight between Victor Parlati with no body structure, Victor with some body structure, or Victor with optimized body structure? You are talking about apples and oranges. I'm not biting into a stupid argument of "this is better than you" - that's so high school. I already know the reality of fighting... You have an advantage use it. It's just another weapon in the arsenal. But if you don't have it....


but yet you refuse to explain how your version is different and more efficient.


Okey, dokey..............

Hope that explains it. Victor, we've been acquaintances for a long time, surely you know my personality. I have no delusion about "stylistic" superiority.

[Knifefighter]

Of course all this talk about all the WC people with bad structure, bad technique, bad training methods, few people that want to train hard and compete does beg the question... why would anyone with half a brain not just go to learn a proven functional training style where there are plenty of training partners, proven training methods, and, probably, less expensive?

[YungChun]

Of course all this talk about all the WC people with bad structure, bad technique, bad training methods, few people that want to train hard and compete does beg the question... why would anyone with half a brain not just go to learn a proven functional training style where there are plenty of training partners, proven training methods, and, probably, less expensive?

Which is exactly why despite your previous statements to the contrary---it is hard to find folks who want to compete among those who also want to do a TMA like VT.

[Knifefighter]

Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.

Huh?

That makes no sense at all.

[m1k3]

Well if nothing else it would be less confusing.

Now, is rooting part of body structure? :eek:

[Knifefighter]

Which is exactly why despite your previous statements to the contrary---it is hard to find folks who want to compete among those who also want to do a TMA like VT.

Actually, I'm basing my statement partially on what you told me.

[chusauli]

Huh?

That makes no sense at all.

Dale, you are an outsider to WCK...

1) Most WCK people only use the arm. Look at the first punch in Siu Nim Tao. Locked static stance, only arm power pushing the punch out.

My way uses the pelvis and horse - you actually use the YJKYM from day one.

2) Most people when they do Cern Jut/ Cern Tok at each section of the Jong, simply wave their arms. There is no rising/falling pelvic thrust of the horse (looks like lovemaking) - all 6 vector forces (up down, forward backward, left right) are engaged.

3) If you throw a medicine ball in YJKYM, do you thrust your whole torso forward, or simply throw it with your arms?

[Vajramusti]

Again, I don't care to debate non wing chun visiting folks who comment on wing chun. Or other who claim a wing chun label but dont really do much wing chun.Others can argue with them of they wish.

I understand what Robert is saying about the importance of structure and he has devised his own tests of structure.Others including my self have their own tests and have had them for quite some time.

Ho Kam Ming and Augustine Fong pay and have always paid a great deal of attention to structure for serious beginning students and testing the structure in different contexts. Some drifting, casual students and visitors may miss the careful attention.

Ho kam Ming is Augustine Fong's sifu-but Fong Sifu as good creative students do has his own curriculum, insights and teaching methods though the subject - wing chun- is the same.

I began wing chun in 1976 and paid careful attention to the foundations and to structure. If I didn't get it at my school I would have gone somewhere else-but not probably to another wing chun school.SOME of the schools that I have seen do not pay enough attention to the details of wing chun structure- without which wing chun's development of power, balance and leverage can be flawed. Once having developed good structure one can adapt to circumstances.. as well built feats of engineering in obeying the laws of nature do.

Structure is style specific and ballet, shotokan, chen taiji among others can have their own structure depending on the key motions that each activity wants to do. Good wing chun structure is an unique achievement. Unfortunately, except for key students who paid for and took private lessons- the great Ip Man paid uneven attention to the students in many of the regular classes many of which were taught by other students.

Wing chun is NOT the only way to self defense but it has it's own requirements in structure-vertical and horizontal, and in punching, palm work, elbows
, shoulder, knees, feet and footwork
As part of kung fu etiquette I wont comment on other specific individual. sub styles or schools.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

Thank you Joy!

Great insight into the teaching of your lineage and it is true Sigung Yip Man withheld a lot from those who never had private lessons.

[goju]

Body structure = more b.s. from a bunch of theoretical non-fighters.

Every physical activity has the concept of body structure... from football, to baseball, to wrestling, to bjj, to judo, to basketball, to ballroom dance.

Body structure also changes depending on the circumstances.

Beginners in most activities pretty much learn it and then never have to give too much thought to it again after they get up into the intermediate levels.

Something is seriously wrong if "advanced" practitioners are spending a bunch of time worrying about structure.


you tell em little buddy!

http://nicolasb.com.ar/archivos/2009/10/grumpy-old-man.jpg

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay, Robert...So about this:

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
"You claim to know what TWC body structure is all about..."

Robert: "Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up."
........................................


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
"You claim to have come up with a different version of body structure..."

Robert: "I would say that what I described above is different from TWC."
...........................................


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
"You claim that your version is more fight efficient than other systems - and obviously that includes TWC..."

Robert: "More fight efficient? I said it would give you better mechanics. Fighting is a matter of your experience, timing, and who you are fighting. You are talking about fighting, and I am talking components of a fighter. I told you the obvious advantage - Power. When you engage the body's largest muscles (in the butt and the legs) in everything you do, you have more drive."
..................................................

***NOW I've seen some of Alan Orr's vids (and the fights involving his guys) and yes...this "pumping the hips" thing is GOOD. It does provide more power and drive. And at certain times during an encounter - and at certain distances - it will provide more power and more pressure while coming in at one's opponent. And yes, it's not part of TWC.

But that's it.

Other than this, I've yet to see or hear anything fight functional about what you do that's different than any other wing chun method I've ever seen - regarding body structure.

But I will give one other thing to you in this regard - besides the hip pumping power generation.

You've brought a lot of attention to the whole issue of body structure within wing chun in recent years - and that's also good - because I agree with those (including you obviously) who believe that many people within wing chun don't develop their basic structure, drive, legs, and stance work in general to the point where these things should be.

[TenTigers]

does beg the question... why would anyone with half a brain not just go to learn a proven functional training style where there are plenty of training partners, proven training methods, and, probably, less expensive?
well, one reason is, it apparantly seems to attract alot of a$$holes...:p:D

[SAAMAG]

well, one reason is, it apparantly seems to attract alot of a$$holes...:p:D

Prerequisites:

1. Must have large chip on shoulder
2. Have zero tolerance for those who disagree with you
3. Must have no sense of humility and or respect
4. Tattoos, must have lots of tattoos
5. An affinity for thug wear
6. Must praise MMA as the single greatest fighting platform in the world.

[sihing]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46959

link to similar thread a few years ago, same arguments and all...nothing much has changed....maybe a few people need to experience it for themselves instead of reading about it or watching it on a vid and making conclusions from there..

James

[anerlich]

I don't know Andrew... The tendency on any board is to hack apart anything and everything having to do with the subject ad infinitum IME.

I guess that's true. And its probably hard to do anything else when all you can share is text, other than repeat what's already been said over and over in the TCMA/MMA flamefest.


Also, IMO it's a valid topic.. If anyone can share any info on VT use of structure that will help out someone's VT then great....

Yeah, I guess so. Better use of the web talking about this stuff than watching pr0n ... from a WC POV anyway ...

[anerlich]

Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.


Now, is rooting part of body structure?

From an Aussie POV, where rooting is slang for s3x, these two quotes are amusing when juxtaposed. And apparently, M1k3, the answer is yes!

[k gledhill]

"As the story goes when you would chi sau with Yip man 3 things would happen - 1) he would never step back, 2) he would never hit you 3) you would always be off balance i.e. either on your toes (falling forward) or on your heels (falling back). Thats a big hint right there. This tells you that Yip man had structure as these are the three big give aways." I copy pasted this fromanother post....


When a student develops structure it is part of the chi-sao drill to try 'destabilize' each other to make the structures better...When you cant be moved off the ygkym thats a sign of very good stance structure...but we dont fight like this.
Hitting isnt required if the structure is being developed in certain chi-sao exchanges, iow I will push your arms to test if you push back, lean forwards to push etc...i can simply remove my arms and step backwards , just to see if you fall forwards...all to work to solid stance work for fighting use later, stable mobile stances.
If you are always off balance then your being made to work to STAY balanced, iow if I just let you stand there ...your not working kung fu :D you should feel it in your piriformis/glutes etc....the next day, sore arse means good stance training ;)

We use basic seung ma toi ma as the progression to static development, I try to knock you on your arse by stepping in towards you before you can get your footing, but only for chi-sao drills, not how we fight...I can also progress to add toi ma offline and back ..this furthers your intuitive movement to an incoming arm from either side....we use tan versus jum/man as the angling technique, we can also use this angling to move offline as we counter entry to us if we arent attacking in...

WE use the chi-sao pushing pulling as a warm up to better our stances for unattached fighting entry and clashing later...if I can simply put my arm in your way and not hit you and you fall over, forwards off balance , etc....why should i hit you :D you cant even hurt me yet :D:D ....

we also add destabilizing shoves before moving away from a chi-sao contact starting point..iow from hands on in chi-sao , one partner will simply ,shove slightly forwards, then move back and to the side angling quickly, while simply holding man/wu so the partner who's just been shoved a little , has to regain the attempted destabilizing action and explode after the guy to attack hi lead man sao with eithe pak da or jut da or whatever your working....it really works the idea further, to stay with what goes...but first dont fall on your arse !


the goal is to fight with high mobility to remain in control of a face off, unattached striking using basic jut/pak entry or kick etc...simple strikes with body momentum behind them, coupled with a relentless forward attacking mind set....we need complete control over ourselves to deliver the techniques we use. We generate lateral forces that can unstabalize us ...so feet inwards , hips aligned pelvic tilt all go towards making us stabler....


ck uses the axis line as the pivoting line, we use the heels because you can stay aligned on the axis, we shift with small shuffle steps to control this line as we fight....we pivot shift angle etc...in balance while fighting from all the stabalizing by-products of the aforementioned drills...


its not so hard to understand.

sparring is more explosive , and with no stability your going to get turned quick lose balance have no ability to counter strike with any inner confidence that balanced movement gives one...

knife steps also add to give fast aggressive foot movement, combining toi ma shift/pivots with focused precision to give explosive counter actions that can easily destabilize the unprepared.

shocking force coming from the hands in ballistic displacing focus requires a stable stance or the force is lost .

[wkmark]

its not so hard to understand.

Agreed. It is not so hard to understand but for some people, it seems more complicated as they are not used to this type of structure.

[k gledhill]

One of the reason guys move to using the wrists and deflections at the wtists or rolling energy bs in chi-sao is becasue if they tried to do the stance testing by holding arms as they should in pre-striking positions ....and you dont withdraw an arm to strike in VT ... they would fall over , lose balance immediately....instead they go into chi-sao writs following , feeling bs..losing th stabilizing ideas for unattached fighting...trust me its a rude awakening to meet a guy whos done this for 25 years :D:D:D:D he doesnt need to hit you..because hes in total command of the situation, turning you into human origami.

Guys who use chi-sao as a place to do feeling sensitivity stuff will have their arse handed to them in a few seconds of sparring...they have been lost in the 2 extended arm exchange of hand slapping air tag. Without a solid attack base that can absorb attacking force, allow you to remain balanced and hitting with max force in a balanced state ..your deluding yourself...VT is this simple direct approach to fighting, sadly its lost to the majority of guys who get shown complete c r a p with rolling feely bs....

[shawchemical]

Same here I’d like to know as well, for an art that is usually advertised as simple and effective its practitioners can sure complicate the most basic things. Structure is taught in most athletic endeavours in the first class and reinforced and tested through practise....weight lifters learn the correct structure for lifting weights in the first few lessons.....boxers the same, wrestlers the same ....is it reinforced through cues whilst training in the beginning but this doesn’t take long to become second nature.....how can people make something so simple so complicated

i think that simple is possibly a good and a bad definition at this point.

Something may be simple to understand, but immensely complex to execute appropriately and precisely (like Chess).

Which probably goes a long way to explaining why some people think ti doesn't work, because they are not prepared to make the effort to condition their body to act in such a way that appears simple but requires much effort to execute such sometimes counterintuitive movements.

Like the idea of staying relaxed under extreme pressure. Wonderful Idea, essential as well, and yet when the crunch comes it is quite difficult at times to maintain that calmness when the adrenalin dumps and turns your limbic system into a panicked prey animal.

Simple does not mean easy. Just like the idea of forward force. Intuitively it seems simple, but without conscious focus to condition your body respond in that way can seem to be an insurmountable obstacle until the light goes on, and the conditioned response is that instinctive offensive action.

[HumbleWCGuy]

As a lot of people have already touched on, the term structure evokes a lot of conversation about a bunch of idiotic nonsense. For the last year I have seen endless debate using ridiculous justifications for how a person should stand when fighting. I have not been impressed by much.

All these discussions of immobile and/or one dimensional fighting shells is ridiculous. Any basic fighting shell needs to provide its user with mobility, balance, protection, and the ability to conserve energy. Everything else is is just a specialty stance and should only play a limited role in reality fighting.

[Wayfaring]

Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.
Originally Posted by chusauli
-----------------------------------------------
Huh?

That makes no sense at all.

Well, actually, as applied to BJJ that statement reminds me of something I heard thirdhand about Rickson teaching a guard pass - he was reported to say "hips in, make like fak".

What Robert is talking about here is with an elbow down punch to have power in it there is a wave motion that starts with the foward motion or torque of the hips. And yes, in shoddy WC people aren't taught that or don't pick up on it.

Although that's not a concept unique to WC. If you watch early Mike Tyson fights, his uppercuts and inside punches start with hip torque.

And this concept holds true in many sports contexts as well. In a good golf swing or baseball swing the hands follow the hips.

Hip or core movement is fundamental to many things.

[bennyvt]

it sounds mostly like a sales gimmic. I get the waist pushing forward. While i can't move very far it makes a big difference. We do this latter in the wall bag training. When i was at cliff au yeung school he showed me the exact thing and said wsl was really emphasising it in the latter years. But cliff used it like a one inch punch and his hips note heaps. But still keeps the straight back. I think he's double jointed. But if most people don't understand to push the waist forward them maybe you have a valid point. In just glad you answered the question. I thought body structure was have proper posture, using compound movements and correct muscle recruitment ie back straight, shoulders back, using large muscle movements not just isolated muscles. Didn't think i was just to put your hips forward. But i must say watching alan's vids the first thing i noticed was great posture.

[Frost]

Maybe in your experience this is so. I wrestled in public school, I never heard the term "structure", rather I learned moves and techniques, stand like this and when he does this you do that, no explaination really as to why we do these things and how the body functions better by doing it that way. I played and taught tennis, got pretty good at it and went to a world class training facility in Florida, I never heard the word "structure" mentioned, all we did was drill the basics, learned some strategy and played against one another.

I agree that WC was generally marketed as easy to learn. Some systems of WC are, as they are tailored to the general public in Mcdojo type schools, I worked and taught at a place for this for years. The majority of the students there (99%) were pure hobbist, never practicing at home nor thinking about it out of class, the remaining 1% excelled 500% better than the others. Over time I learned that WC is far from easy to learn, it is complex and hard to learn, maybe one of the hardest, but once you learn it is easy to exibit and bring forth within your own movement. Whether or not it is effective vs someone hell bent on hurting you is not something anyone here can answer, unless you have a crystal ball:)

The problem comes when we intellecutalize it and try to explain to one another what we are experiencing and learning on the physcial level. Human beings have a natural tendency to complicate whatever subject they come in contact with, finance, nature, politics, religion, whatever.

.So, concerning WC, the basic idea in is to learn a skill set, that begins with a bodily structure that connects the whole body together as a unit, but a unit that is not fixed(static) nor rigid (stiff). Without the structure your actions have no foundation or ability to transfer power or energy into your movements, whether they are offensive or defensive.

I agree there are some esoteric ideas and theory's about it all. Since WC is pretty specific in it's application (we are basically infighters), we need to develop certain attributes to make it work for us. If I apply a boxers structure and mechanics but am in or around the clinch range it won't work, just like WC structure/mechanics don't work outside the clinch range...yes we can still use the prinicples of the system, but the physical part does not apply there (why use facing concepts on the outside when I need to utilize reach more so..).

Now for us in the beginning we don't want to clinch, grab, hold on to our opponent, rather we need to learn how to strike, and control thru the striking to KO our opponent from that close range. Sounds easy, but the reality is it isn't..Yes one can learn MT to function here, but we aren't talking about MT.

James

Structure/the correct way to stand and move is taught in all athletic environments, in grappling its staggered or square stance, legs bent dinosaur arms shoulders shrugged etc, that is a structure correct? And it is taught from day one in most grappling schools and reinforced in training, elbows in, head up etc. In weight lifting it’s the same, squat stance, chest out, sit back, break at the hips not knees first, neutral spin. Head up etc, push through the heels not the toes so on and so on. Cues are constantly given but the basic stance/structure/way of moving is taught in the first lesson.

Boxing structure does work in and around the clinch, tight hooks, uppercuts, bumping with the shoulder to create space etc and throwing overhands etc...in fact one of the worst drills in sparring is boxing unattached at close range...ie you start shoulder to shoulder and remain attached there for as long as possible just throwing punches but not grabbing on, it sucks but is a great way to train inside fighting

[bennyvt]

i think the problem comes fro the teaching. I have done some bio mechanics, and through my fitness dip i was introduced to pilates and the alexander techniques. The main focus is on body cues. Meaning saying something to get the right result. Ie lift your head like someone is shaking you up by the head instead of head up, as normally the first will bring the whole back straight while the second normally just tilt the head and shoulders and back are the same. In stepping i say throw your waist, this leads people to step without leaving the back dont to far and tends to keep the back straight. I mean we describe things not how they should be actually done but describe it to dabi sermo differently so they do it right. Then just explain what is actually happening if they want to know or teach. Others. Like push with yous elbows. This is to teach people to use the correct sequence of muscle activation. Ie core, pecs/ lats internal rotators, triceps/ anconeus, forearm. This means that instead of an arm punch this is powered by all the muscles i am leaving out the bottom half due to time. In swimming it would be using you gluts to jail not the quads. I agree anyone with any personal training, s&c or athletis trainer should know and implement there tools. Like wrestling, keep the hips below his centre and push them into the person, this is structure just they don't feel the need to make it look so special as they don't try to advertise their new video series.

[k gledhill]

Same for us in VT , by telling the students to drive the hip and corresponding elbow you get the extension of the leg in short explosive unison due to the hip being projected forwards sharply to correspond with a raising bong elbow ...we focus on the elbow + hip unity but obviously are still incorporating the whole body . Using the hip thrusts as doggy style :D is a similar way to convey the concept of unity. Albeit a weird visual to have while drilling :D But I blame Roberts twisted mind on that one ;) just imagine its Pamela Anderson and we have a winner for visual analogy .

When we do chum kil the whole form is introducing this hip thrust + elbow connection + momentum of body mass... either pivoting sharply as we face to strike, or move laterally to 'cut the way' aka move sideways across the facing opponent as we take an offensive position with strike & jut/pak + momentum+ hip etc ... same as we move across the face of the dummy , we are making contact with the dummy arms as we make small steps using momentum+hip+arms/elbows ....The legs are the most powerful muscle group and using the short driving steps into the ground we get exactly what we put in coming back out through structure, like any sport using dynamic movement, it has to be generated from the extension of the legs ....weight lifters /power lifters are some of the fastest sprinters , go figure.
Tyson came from the crouch upwards using tremendous amounts of leg in any strike he made ...

po pai aka shoving with 2 hands or one is also using hips and can generate a lot of force but in the dummy we focus these shoves to coincide with the momentum of stepping into the dummy axis line with elbows in hips drive forwards to Pamela and use only enough shove energy to regain your striking ability ...dont over use the power becasue you suddenly got hot for Pam :D you dont want to lose the controlling flow of your attack .

The inward turned toes of the system develops having feet that dont turn outwards for the same ideas above to work ie they dont turn out and open up the hip joint to become destabilized ..we dont fight with inward toes as ygkym but due to the training our lead foot will turn slightly inwards to gain the hipjoint 'lock' and give better support. an easy way to show this is to have a guy stand with one leg leading and shove them from the side sharply ..if they turn their toes inward they feel the hip joint /pelvis become supportive , the same support for lateral forces we generate. have them turn the toe straight forwards or outward and shove to give them the lesson in stability , to regain the support they will turn their toes inwards.

During drills for seung ma toi ma the legs , knees, feet get positional corrections too..along with Pamela hips facing and pumping, shoulders aimed along a line, elbows to correspond with the above... momentum and explosive engagements with the unsuspecting can have good results.

The dan gwan of the Pole is also generated from the 'hips to Pam' as well...the leading elbow always sits in the 'pocket' of the leading hip direction , so we use this elbow/hip action 'thrusting' to drive energy out to the tip of the pole to deflect with ballistic force while we dont waver from the striking line after moving the opponents pole ...this force is very explosive and compact in nature ... like vt, explosive .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Student: Hey Paul, how do you know you have good body structure?
Paul: well, when I hit someone it hurts and they get "compromised".
Student: That's it?
Paul, well, when I protect myself or counter something I don't get "knocked on my ass".
Student: That's it?
Paul:Yeah, pretty much, a structure is only as good as what it is being used for at any given moment, it must be fluid and dynamic.
Student: Like Water?
Paul: WTF? stupid bruce lee metaphor crap, here let me show you.
*Later*
Student: Why am I in the hospital?
Paul: Your body structure sucked.
:p

[m1k3]

I think a big part of the problem that I am having with this is the use of English translations for Chinese terms. To me a structure is static, solid and unmoving. A big building is a structure. It is a noun

What is being described is fluid, like surfing. Your whole body is making adjustments to retain balance in a dynamic environment. It is a process, a verb so to speak, and that is something that is difficult to describe, you have to feel it to do it. And you improve by practice.

Probably one of the hardest things to teach a beginner is how to use the whole body as a single movement rather than a bunch of body parts move in isolation one after the other.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think a big part of the problem that I am having with this is the use of English translations for Chinese terms. To me a structure is static, solid and unmoving. A big building is a structure. It is a noun

What is being described is fluid, like surfing. Your whole body is making adjustments to retain balance in a dynamic environment. It is a process, a verb so to speak, and that is something that is difficult to describe, you have to feel it to do it. And you improve by practice.

Probably one of the hardest things to teach a beginner is how to use the whole body as a single movement rather than a bunch of body parts move in isolation one after the other.

Structure is task specific, it can be static or dynamic.
A surfer has great structure for surfing, the same structure would suck if he had to left 100lbs over his head or even if his surd board was different.

Almost every sport teaches whole bod movement, I can't recall any that don't to be honest.
Its not hard to teach someone whole body movement, it really isn't.

[m1k3]

Its not hard to teach someone whole body movement, it really isn't.

This I disagree with. I have coached softball for over 15 years and teaching good batting skills to beginners is probably a big reason for all the gray hair I have. Trying to get them to shift their weight, throw there hands at the ball, rotate the hips and pull the bat through the plane of the pitch in a single fluid motion is difficult to say the least. What happens is most of them will pick it up and some will get quite good at it but it takes a lot of time and practice on the part of the new batter with input from the coach. The batter has to feel the correct movement from a good swing when they do it and that is something they have to learn on there own. They need to experience the "a-ha!" moment when it clicks in their head that that was a good swing.

Getting a noob to through a punch correctly or execute a sprawl or takedown is similar. The neural paths have to be trained to fire in the correct order across the entire body and the noob has to feel himself doing the movement. After a while it may seem simple but in the beginning it is a very difficult process to learn.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This I disagree with. I have coached softball for over 15 years and teaching good batting skills to beginners is probably a big reason for all the gray hair I have. Trying to get them to shift their weight, throw there hands at the ball, rotate the hips and pull the bat through the plane of the pitch in a single fluid motion is difficult to say the least. What happens is most of them will pick it up and some will get quite good at it but it takes a lot of time and practice on the part of the new batter with input from the coach. The batter has to feel the correct movement from a good swing when they do it and that is something they have to learn on there own. They need to experience the "a-ha!" moment when it clicks in their head that that was a good swing.

Getting a noob to through a punch correctly or execute a sprawl or takedown is similar. The neural paths have to be trained to fire in the correct order across the entire body and the noob has to feel himself doing the movement. After a while it may seem simple but in the beginning it is a very difficult process to learn.

I think I wasn't clear.
It isn't hard to teach whole body movement, it is however a bit hard to pick it up for some.
BUT, with constant training, all get it to a certain degree.
Fact is, the main problem in teaching MA whole movement is that the beginning teaching tends to be far to static ( think punching in a horse stance) as opposed to dynamic.
Boxers and MT guys, as examples, tend to get the whole body thing quicker because they don't "waste" time with that training.

[Knifefighter]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46959

link to similar thread a few years ago, same arguments and all...nothing much has changed....maybe a few people need to experience it for themselves instead of reading about it or watching it on a vid and making conclusions from there..

James

In that thread, there was a lot of discussion about redirecting a horizontal force into a vertical force (push into the chest being diverted into the ground).

Can any one of the supposed WC "structure knowledgeable" people please explain the mechanics of that giving an explanation that actually makes sense from a physics point of view?

[t_niehoff]

Structure is task specific, it can be static or dynamic.
A surfer has great structure for surfing, the same structure would suck if he had to left 100lbs over his head or even if his surd board was different.

Almost every sport teaches whole bod movement, I can't recall any that don't to be honest.
Its not hard to teach someone whole body movement, it really isn't.

Let me use your good post to explain my experience.

What Robert is talking about (body structure -- and as I have said before, that term isn't a very good one IMO) from my perspective is this:

Body structure is not a shape or how your body "looks" but rather HOW YOU USE YOUR BODY TO PERFORM A SPECIFIC TASK -- and so different tasks require different body structures.

The WCK method of fighting is to control our opponent while striking him. By control, I don't mean (just) his hands or arms, but his BODY. I can't control an opponent's body just with my arms alone (localized power), as I don't have the strength to do it. So, to control an opponent I NEED to use my body -- and use it in a very specific way.

The body structure that Robert teaches is a beginning, a start, to developing the ability to use your body to control your opponent. What Robert typically shows, however, is the first stage of that developmental process (there no point in going beyond it if you can't do step 1).

How do you know if you have this body structure? Because you will be able to consistently control your opponent while striking him. Without it, you can't do control the opponent while striking him. It's like asking how do you know if you have the body structure to push a car up a hill -- you know when you can push a car up a hill.

AS Robert told me when I first began training with him, "good WCK is based on control; poor WCK is based on avoidance." If your WCK is based on avoidance -- parries, deflections, running from pressure, etc. -- you can't be using and can't develop the body structure Robert and I are talking about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

AS Robert told me when I first began training with him, "good WCK is based on control; poor WCK is based on avoidance." If your WCK is based on avoidance -- parries, deflections, running from pressure, etc. -- you can't be using and can't develop the body structure Robert and I are talking about.

I agree with most of your post, except that part.
Good WC is ANY WC that gets the job done.
IF your WC is based on what you mention then, yes, THAT WC needs your kind of body structure, but if it is NOT based on "attached fighting" like you like to put it, then you need a different structure.

[Knifefighter]

Body structure is not a shape or how your body "looks" but rather HOW YOU USE YOUR BODY TO PERFORM A SPECIFIC TASK -- and so different tasks require different body structures.

Body structure is a specific posture of your body at a specific point in time for a specific purpose.

So far, what Robert has explained to me in his posts on what he thinks body structure is, actually is not body structure... this type of thing is generally labeled as biomechanics.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Check out his beautiful application of structure:
http://www.splicetoday.com/vault/posts/0000/1953/boxing_large.jpg

[t_niehoff]

Body structure is a specific posture of your body at a specific point in time for a specific purpose.

So far, what Robert has explained to me in his posts on what he thinks body structure is, actually is not body structure... this type of thing is generally labeled as biomechanics.

You're right, and that's why I don't like the term "body structure".

[SavvySavage]

Anjuro,
WTF is that pic? You're not known for pasting pics that prove a point. Can you post a racy pic of hot ladies showing proper body structure? That will get this thread in the right direction

[t_niehoff]

I agree with most of your post, except that part.
Good WC is ANY WC that gets the job done.
IF your WC is based on what you mention then, yes, THAT WC needs your kind of body structure, but if it is NOT based on "attached fighting" like you like to put it, then you need a different structure.

I agree with you, but with a caveat: it isn't WCK if you aren't using WCK movement.

Since I have a little time this am, let me ask you this --

Do you think training in boxing prepares you for chi sao? Why or why not?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with you, but with a caveat: it isn't WCK if you aren't using WCK movement.

Since I have a little time this am, let me ask you this --

Do you think training in boxing prepares you for chi sao? Why or why not?

Don't get me started on chi sao !

[Knifefighter]

Check out his beautiful application of structure:

And a perfect example of why you cannot rely on structural concepts when it comes to actual fighting at the highest levels.... because from a theoretical view of structure, that structure is actually very bad.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anjuro,
WTF is that pic? You're not known for pasting pics that prove a point. Can you post a racy pic of hot ladies showing proper body structure? That will get this thread in the right direction

LOL !
No, but you can have this one:
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/200138864-001.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=6C4008C0FD9EB5A5C868914D52FBCA6FEE66FA52007DD989 8A5452BBCE0F27D700123AA3B5A18ED0

[sanjuro_ronin]

another
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/200213216-001.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=91F5CCEF208281FDA67DE7948C8F37D110D18D12F99A483D C8B7F6E6AA030B8AEC7C5022FB410D56

[Vajramusti]

Check out his beautiful application of structure:
http://www.splicetoday.com/vault/posts/0000/1953/boxing_large.jpg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good one Sanjuro!! And as I believe that you said in passing before structure is activity specific.
Wing chun is not western boxing- though some motions may look similar.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good one Sanjuro!! And as I believe that you said in passing before structure is activity specific.
Wing chun is not western boxing- though some motions may look similar.

joy chaudhuri

I think that, because all humans are alike, many things will look similar, there is no way around it.

[Knifefighter]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good one Sanjuro!! And as I believe that you said in passing before structure is activity specific.
Wing chun is not western boxing- though some motions may look similar.

joy chaudhuri

But fighting is fighting. And that is why, when people fight full contact, the mechanics you see in that pic will look much the same, no matter the style in terms of being able to apply the most efficient force to get the job done.

Theoretical non-fighters often think "their style" will not look like that. However, the fact of the matter is that under striking situations, that is a very common "structure" to see, regardless of style... even though, from a theoretical "structure" standpoint, that "structure" is less than ideal in any system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Theoretical non-fighters(TM) often think "their style" will not look like that. However, the fact of the matter is that under striking situations, that is a very common "structure" to see, regardless of style.

Fixed that for you.
:D

[k gledhill]

http://www.kungfu-center.de/index.php?id=42

structure in motion, hip in pole work, balanced movement around dummy, attacking with 2 arms that can each work the same as the other iow ambidextrous use.

[goju]

But fighting is fighting. And that is why, when people fight full contact, the mechanics you see in that pic will look much the same, no matter the style in terms of being able to apply the most efficient force to get the job done.

Theoretical non-fighters often think "their style" will not look like that. However, the fact of the matter is that under striking situations, that is a very common "structure" to see, regardless of style... even though, from a theoretical "structure" standpoint, that "structure" is less than ideal in any system.


do you just have a certain number of posts you repaste every time you're on here?

god god that poster was right that said some of you just like to hear yourselves talk:D:rolleyes:

[lhetsler]

I don't mean to go off on a tangent here but i'm practicing wing chun and while application of upper body techniques is coming along okay, i'm having some trouble developing a strong and rooted stance. Does anyone have any ideas or exercises to build a strong stance that transfers weight down to the ground without compromising structure.

[SAAMAG]

I don't mean to go off on a tangent here but i'm practicing wing chun and while application of upper body techniques is coming along okay, i'm having some trouble developing a strong and rooted stance. Does anyone have any ideas or exercises to build a strong stance that transfers weight down to the ground without compromising structure.

Upper body techniques are nothing without the stance. Soooo I'd recommend stance training. If you want to fight, then you practice fighting. If your goal is to improve your stance, than you practice your stance (keep in mind though that you won't gain skill in fighting whilst doing this but will be improving support systems).

When practicing from a nejia perspective, you can do stance training which uses the mind eye's to drive your intent through imaging. Practice relaxing in your stance, imagining a black-hole of sorts in the ground below you. Imagine that black hole pulling you deeper and deeper into the ground. Make sure not to be overly tense in any part of your body--use only enough muscle to support your stance and nothing more. Believe it or not, this helps.

From a physical perspective, in doing this what happens is that your stance becomes lower. You will slowly condition your leg muscles to maintain a deeper stance until you reach the 1-fist distance between your knees (assuming you're working YGKYM). Your mind will eventually fade into infinity...and you will reach a sense of no-mind.

Hope this helps. Also...in my opinion everything should be roughly 50/50 weight unless you're moving to facilitate another movement. So while stance training make sure to be balanced, relaxed, and mentally serene.

[Knifefighter]

I don't mean to go off on a tangent here but i'm practicing wing chun and while application of upper body techniques is coming along okay, i'm having some trouble developing a strong and rooted stance. Does anyone have any ideas or exercises to build a strong stance that transfers weight down to the ground without compromising structure.

Last time I checked the laws of physics were still in place. That means you can't transfer weight into the ground.

[couch]

I don't mean to go off on a tangent here but i'm practicing wing chun and while application of upper body techniques is coming along okay, i'm having some trouble developing a strong and rooted stance. Does anyone have any ideas or exercises to build a strong stance that transfers weight down to the ground without compromising structure.

You're going to hear a load of answers here - so take it all and try it all and make it all your own.

While stance can take a long time to feel comfortable in, that static stance is not fight applicable. IMO, the WC stance is MOBILE and is designed to break down, get shoved and moved.

Don't believe that hype-crap of people standing one-legged on a weight-scale with three people trying to push them over. It's all trickery.

One really good thing the Chi Sau teaches is that push-pull energy that makes you constantly adjust your balance and stance.

Good luck in your training. Just stick with it and you'll eventually get it.

Best,
K

[chusauli]

Structure is a dynamic thing; not a dead, static, stand there thing.

The surfboard analogy was more like it. You are keeping your balance and your control of the opponent's balance.

[k gledhill]

I don't mean to go off on a tangent here but i'm practicing wing chun and while application of upper body techniques is coming along okay, i'm having some trouble developing a strong and rooted stance. Does anyone have any ideas or exercises to build a strong stance that transfers weight down to the ground without compromising structure.

seung ma toi ma drills ...

[Matrix]

I don't mean to go off on a tangent here but i'm practicing wing chun and while application of upper body techniques is coming along okay, i'm having some trouble developing a strong and rooted stance. Does anyone have any ideas or exercises to build a strong stance that transfers weight down to the ground without compromising structure.

IMO "upper body techniques" have limited use without the horse.
I just don't like the term "strong stance". You need to sink and relax the horse. I think of "strong" as applying muscular tension which goes against what you're trying to accomplish. I don't want to be too picky, so excuse me if I'm off base here.

Kevin's suggestion of seung ma toi ma drills is right on the mark as far as I'm concerned. You need to learn to relax and maintain your balance as you're being pushed and pulled around.

[YungChun]

IMO "upper body techniques" have limited use without the horse.
I just don't like the term "strong stance". You need to sink and relax the horse. I think of "strong" as applying muscular tension which goes against what you're trying to accomplish. I don't want to be too picky, so excuse me if I'm off base here.

Kevin's suggestion of seung ma toi ma drills is right on the mark as far as I'm concerned. You need to learn to relax and maintain your balance as you're being pushed and pulled around.

Right on the money..

lhetsler:

The training has to test/challenge your ability to manage lots of force/energy...

Good VT training will/should at some point have folks "blasting" push/pull/palming, etc, you all around the room... You should feel like you are on ice skates for the first time.. This is the good stuff.. If you are already doing this and worried because you feel like you are outside your comfort zone that's exactly how you should feel. If they never do anything like this, then head for the hills..

To manage force you will need to sink your weight, and hopefully apply the leg moves of VT in an alive manner.

What are you up to in the training?

[lhetsler]

Thanks for the advice everyone! Does anyone have any links to videos or instructions on seung ma toi ma drills? I'm really interested to see them and put them into practice with the other ideas.

I and a friend used to train a couple years back in wing chun under a teacher but before we could get very far he moved away, but we were able to soak in a lot of the basics and foundational concepts. I have wanted to continue training since then but I don't really have the money to learn from organized lessons so my friend and I have been using and instructional video set by Benny Meng in the Yip Man system. We've started at the base level again and we've learned the first form. We're also utilizing pak sau and lap sau/bong sau drills and applying techniques and concepts as we can. I realize however that without a good stance, the quality of our training is limited. I know it isn't exactly ideal to try to learn without a teacher so any further advice is certainly welcome!

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwaZxsYkEcU

this is seung ma / toi ma ..

Tan sao is used as an attacking entry from chi-sao drills, the partner responds with a inward elbow strike, the loose fist [relaxed wrist] should touch the chest of the guy stepping in with tan...we use the jaw or the chest area to keep the elbows low for good habits....low elbows make good technique.

in several stages for development: a= tansao attacking entry, b = jumstrike angle offline counter
1:
a] steps in with tan sao from chisao,
b jum strikes and if stale mated moves back in a straight line .

this is a trying to knock you on your arse , you take a step back and make the distance to stay balanced and strike distances are manitained...always be able to place a loose fist on the tip of the partners jaw... important for distance training. Your not training to feel the arm but use it as a marker to develop your strikes and angles.
you can do this in rotation, then becoming random to make you think less...if you get unstable slow down and check the stance hips forwards knees bent, move the BACK FOOT FIRST if going backwards, common error easily taken advantage of to destabilize each other is the wrong shuffle step sequences under pressure of attacking entry.
Dont do more than 2 push attempts and steps back, or you get bad habits of sumo vt : )


2:
a ] tan takes a 1/2 step in towards partner , 1/2 step so partner can angle early enough to make contact on chest, DONT block arm , strike past arm AND use inward elbow at the same time, the elbow covers the angle to stop entry , the fist hits at the same time.

b] takes a step 45 degrees backwards offline to the tan saos aim, not sideways or pivoting in the same spot , so when the guy doing the 1/2 step stops , hes stopping so the partner can adjust and fix all the angles arm positions etc...mutual ...the tan doesnt leave the centerline, it should, along with your other striking arm in fok sao, aim along your centerline, thats importnat....use the alignment of the tan sao to move and angle the jum sao/elbows.

a] because your attacking entry , you cant just throw all your momentum in one direction with so much force you cant reface a guy angling on your entry....so you face the partners movement, by turning to face them again ...because you only did a small 1/2 step, its easy to do a slight turn and carry on attacking / facing...if you took too big a step you have to make big foot and facing changes....small 1/2 step allows a 'stalking' attaking entry to a moving target. tip try to keep both arms in contact facing squarely as you progress..iow we dont fight with 2 extended arms like chi-sao...but the drill teaches us that each arm should reach equally all the time as each is striking / attacking..important.

b ] is waiting for 'a' to reface and step in again to 'test' the positions of 'b' stance elbow , jum strike...is it ready to accept force ? yes lets see.....a steps in and b rides the force by moving the back foot first [or you fall down easy] ...the test only requires 2 steps if good , dont do bad habit of pushing more than 2 times.

a] simply keeps the tan aligned with jum and 1/2 steps then steps facing again in 2 stages for helping to get to the next stages of NO 1/2 STEP stoppoing , simply one flowing step attacking entry flowing to move to face the angling attempt....

as you progress you dont do the 1/2 step stop and check...it becomes fluid random entry counter from each other and you think less about what side to move to counter and use tactical ideas of isolating one 1/2 of the opponent from his other 1/2....fighting 1/2 the opponent is your goal with 100% of your attacking techniques, thats why we face to strike with each arm...overwhelming quickly, not facing , clinching ,


tactically the role of the tan sao becomes a leading grab/jab/ strike/ pull attempt etc... and how you can move off the line of force entry towards you...dont go back in astraight line or the guy can simply close his eyes andshoot your legs because he knows how your moving...in a straight line backwards ;).
Angling can be random and even if you dont make the right choice you know tactically what your after....1/2 the opponent, which 1/2 is up to them to show you :D


preceeding drills like dan chi-sao are required to have the striking a strike with a strike idea always working iow tan strike versus jum strike taken to seung ma toi ma drills....dont try to feel or block the wrist areas with downward force of the wrists, BAD HABIT,,,strike each other using the elbows to fend off each others arm attacks...

a good example of basic elbow ideas is to take your arm and move it a foot sideways to your centerline then slap your ELBOW to the line as fast as you can WITHOUT letting your wrists x past the center line...like a pak sao and elbowpak sao...try to make the same energy of pak sao with your elbow ..if its sharp enough force and fast you can try to displace an arm held along your centerline by a partner to slap off the line with your inside elbow forearm area...

feel free to ask many questions :D

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwaZxsYkEcU

this is seung ma / toi ma ..

Compare that theoretical non-fighting nonsense video "structure" with the structure used in systems that actually do realistic movements against other skilled opponents who are also doing realistic movements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shtzE6brI08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2oXxEOyUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXVLCW7PUvU&feature=related

Notice how the "structure" among people who are actually going full force against resisting opponents is completely different than what you see in that chi sao video.

[k gledhill]

Compare that theoretical non-fighting nonsense video "structure" with the structure used in systems that actually do realistic movements against other skilled opponents who are also doing realistic movements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shtzE6brI08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2oXxEOyUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXVLCW7PUvU&feature=related

Notice how the "structure" among people who are actually going full force against resisting opponents is completely different than what you see in that chi sao video.

that drilling basic stuff leads to this later..but without balance drills your trying to stay standing , never mind fighting what coming at you relentlesly...dale reserve your final persoanl opinions to facing philipp fighting...not watching drills :D
I have faced him :D

watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNspO13McvM&feature=related



your showing me the fighters not guys drilling basic moves in the gym ....guys can break down actions to single out specific parts/components of an action.in seung ma toi ma its alignment facing, balanced movement to help further development for tho goal

FIGHTING...

Dale sadly what YOU have come to know as vt is bad habit vt, c r a p ...I can spot it too, you dont have exclusivity on bad : )

[Knifefighter]

that drilling basic stuff leads to this later..but without balance drills your trying to stay standing , never mind fighting what coming at you relentlesly...dale reserve your final persoanl opinions to facing philipp fighting...not watching drills :D
I have faced him :D

watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNspO13McvM&feature=related

Same crappy "structure".

There is a reason why you don't see that structure among decent fighters when they are facing halfway skilled opponents who are attempting to take them down, lock them up, or knock their head off.

I guess theoretical non-fighters will never understand this.

[Knifefighter]

I have faced him :D

Really now? You've fought full contact against him?

Or is your idea of "facing" just more of those unrealistic drills?

[k gledhill]

Same crappy "structure".

There is a reason why you don't see that structure among decent fighters when they are facing halfway skilled opponents who are attempting to take them down, lock them up, or knock their head off.

I guess theoretical non-fighters will never understand this.

tsk tsk Dale I had hopes for you. :D

[Knifefighter]

your showing me the fighters not guys drilling basic moves in the gym ....guys can break down actions to single out specific parts/components of an action.in seung ma toi ma its alignment facing, balanced movement to help further development for tho goal


If you had ever trained in a functional gym, you would have seen the basic moves done in those gyms are as close as possible to the actual movements done when performed for real.

You won't go to a wrestling, bjj, boxing, mt, or sambo practice and drill moves in stances that you will not do in fighting. From day one you are taught to do the movement in the stance that is as close as possible to the way it will be done against a resisting opponent.

It is completely unfunctional and counterproductive to learn to be in a "structure" that is different than the way you will use it for real.

[k gledhill]

Really now? You've fought full contact against him?

Or is your idea of "facing" just more of those unrealistic drills?

...you should know what the answers are Dale ;)

[Hendrik]

It is completely unfunctional and counterproductive to learn to be in a "structure" that is different than the way you will use it for real.


That is 100% true.

If one's style is WCK.

Then, the idea is come accept goes return....etc.

how functional and productive if one practice all kind of Kiu Sau with all kind of stance and all kind of bai jong "structure"? but none address the implementation of come accept Goes return...." dynamicaly, and while is action doing all type of basic Southern China martial art or TKD or Boxing or MMA. also, talk all about theories...etc but at action do all the chasing hands and Jiu Shek (posture IE tan sau against this hand, bil sau use against that technics.) where all belongs to wishfull thinking theory. like in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ramwk_AkhgA.

[chusauli]

Most of the time, those who have a "structure" use it at the wrong distance. WCK is supposed to use structure at a close distance to offset the opponent's balance.

Yip Man was said to always have people on their heels or their toes, just teetering off balance. This was the core of what Hawkins taught me. Ho Kam Ming showed me the same thing, as did Wong Shun Leung. I can see Chu Shang Tin do the same. They epitomize what is in Yip Man WCK as "Lai Lou Hui Sung, Lut Sao Jik Chung." I am sure what I am teaching is the core essence epitomized in that statement - and there is no other interpretation, at least from the line of Yip Man - Hawkins Cheung - to me. I clearly show this in my DVD.

Other branches like Weng Chun and Yik Kam WCK did the same. I was surprised when Andreas Hoffman did the same, although he looked like a different horse, he still gyrated his pelvis like love making. Hendrik Santo also does the same idea, but subtler. Others I met had some of it, or not.

When I investigated other WCK, they had a different strategy and a longer distance. When they struck it was at arm's length - too long to make it work in the same way. And there is no lower leg movement, or dynamic body structure. It was not the same pelvis pumping and offset balance - and a different functionality. I will not say it is wrong, just different.

[k gledhill]

Most of the time, those who have a "structure" use it at the wrong distance. WCK is supposed to use structure at a close distance to offset the opponent's balance.

Yip Man was said to always have people on their heels or their toes, just teetering off balance. This was the core of what Hawkins taught me. Ho Kam Ming showed me the same thing, as did Wong Shun Leung. I can see Chu Shang Tin do the same. They epitomize what is in Yip Man WCK as "Lai Lou Hui Sung, Lut Sao Jik Chung." I am sure what I am teaching is the core essence epitomized in that statement - and there is no other interpretation, at least from the line of Yip Man - Hawkins Cheung - to me. I clearly show this in my DVD.

Other branches like Weng Chun and Yik Kam WCK did the same. I was surprised when Andreas Hoffman did the same, although he looked like a different horse, he still gyrated his pelvis like love making. Hendrik Santo also does the same idea, but subtler. Others I met had some of it, or not.





When I investigated other WCK, they had a different strategy and a longer distance. When they struck it was at arm's length - too long to make it work in the same way. And there is no lower leg movement, or dynamic body structure. It was not the same pelvis pumping and offset balance - and a different functionality. I will not say it is wrong, just different.


distance is a crucial learning curve of vt fighting....like you I founf most do chi-sao at wrists contact distances of dan chi-sao basic inrto levels....when you hit and defelct in on eaction you have to be doing a hit to jaw and deflection in that space / distance, close up....to generate force that close without drawing hands awy is the goal as well...dynamic momentum in attacking, with good heavy punches , rather than chasing air ...nobody said vt was easy :D
never mind finding someone who had a holistic approach from years of fighting and studying with Yip Man on the most regular basis...

[kung fu fighter]

Great thead Robert!


Most of the time, those who have a "structure" use it at the wrong distance. WCK is supposed to use structure at a close distance to offset the opponent's balance.

I agree 100% !!, what are some of the different strategies that you utilize to close into the opponent to be able to apply dynamic structure?



I was surprised when Andreas Hoffman did the same, although he looked like a different horse, he still gyrated his pelvis like love making. Hendrik Santo also does the same idea, but subtler.

Which mechanics does Hendrik Santo use to do this in a subtler manner.

Does Hendrik "pump his pelvis much" when applying structure, or just brings the power up from the ground up through his legs with very little pumping of his hips?

I am familar with the body mechanics that Andreas uses to generate structure and power. What are the differences between the way Andreas applies body structure/usage compared to how hendrik Santo does it in the Yik Kam linage?

[Hendrik]

Does Hendrik "pump his pelvis much" when applying structure, or just brings the power up from the ground up through his legs with very little pumping of his hips?


Hendrik doesnt use those pumping hips stuffs, because it is a different technology.


If you really understand multi-directional force vectors.
perhaps you need to ask yourself why do you link hip pumping to multi-dimentional force vector generation? can a hip pumping generate six directional force vectors?

[k gledhill]

pull over Hendrik , this is the forum VT police, have you got a license for that bs you just tried to pass off :D no hips tsk tsk, my singing poet, you cant have a good dynamic if you leave out Pamela ;) altogether guys pamela pamela hump hump hump those hips :D:D

chum kil is all about Pamela ;)

[Hendrik]

pull over Hendrik , this is the forum VT police, have you got a license for that bs you just tried to pass off :D no hips tsk tsk, my singing poet, you cant have a good dynamic if you leave out Pamela ;) altogether guys pamela pamela hump hump hump those hips :D:D

chum kil is all about Pamela ;)


you can hump your hip as you like it. But I am not going to do it, a snake doesnt have hip.

[k gledhill]

you can hump your hip as you like it. But I am not going to do it, a snake doesnt have hip.

ah more felonious bs ! okay buddy lets see your license and registration, tell it to the Judge ...and we know who that is , twitch twitch. ;) :D

[duende]

Most of the time, those who have a "structure" use it at the wrong distance. WCK is supposed to use structure at a close distance to offset the opponent's balance.


True.

On the flip side however, if one tries to use structure from too close a position then they are essentially already collapsed.

One has to understand the balance from being stretched out and collapsed. What I like to think of as having gone a "bridge too far" (movie reference) or a "non-starter" Haha :D . (Meaning finished before you get out the gate).

I'll just ignore Hendriks ignorant Bai Jong comments for now. :)

[Hendrik]

ah more felonious bs ! okay buddy lets see your license and registration, tell it to the Judge ...and we know who that is , twitch twitch. ;) :D


the whole body is a big mama hip. so why just pump one small hip?

[k gledhill]

I like the way you talk son..one big hump for pam :D one small hip for vt

[Ultimatewingchun]

IMO "upper body techniques" have limited use without the horse.
I just don't like the term "strong stance". You need to sink and relax the horse. I think of "strong" as applying muscular tension which goes against what you're trying to accomplish. I don't want to be too picky, so excuse me if I'm off base here.

Kevin's suggestion of seung ma toi ma drills is right on the mark as far as I'm concerned. You need to learn to relax and maintain your balance as you're being pushed and pulled around.

***THAT'S a good post right there, my friend.

[Hendrik]

I like the way you talk son..one big hump for pam :D one small hip for vt

hahaha, but then every animal have hip too. hahaha.

[anerlich]

Except snakes.

Oh ,and worms, fish, jellyfish, protozoa, ...

[Matrix]

Except snakes.

Oh ,and worms, fish, jellyfish, protozoa, ...I am NOT a snake, or a fish or a crane therefore I do not attempt to behave like one. Until I develop some leathal venom or razor sharp claws, I'll stick to more human behavior. :)

[Matrix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwaZxsYkEcU

this is seung ma / toi ma ..This is not exactly what I had in mind.
If the goal is to develop balance and a good horse, then I am suggesting that you actually allow your training partner to come in without attempting to react beforehand. In other words, I would like to feel the incoming force and learn to deal with it properly. If you allow it, you can actually feel the point at which you balance is compromised, at which point you must move to quickly re-establish your balance. You then become comfortable and learn the skill of efficient adjusment when you are in a less than ideal situation. You learn to relax your horse and sink, rather then tense up and freeze. You can become more fluid.

Just an opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[bennyvt]

if we are talking technical, the relax is not what you want. You want to activate the right muscles be that fast twitch when stepping and isometric while holding the posterior tilt of the pelvis. Its more about switching on the right muscles and keeping the antagonist muscles relaxed. Findind out what is the problem depends on what should be worked, If its your waist going out then standing in stnce and long duration exercises will get the waist muscles stronger to keep it in. If your stepping is weak then do heaps of stepping, patnered, weight vests etc. If its speed step with parachutes, up and down hills, excess speed drills etc. Or if its leg strength do squats plometrics etc.

[Jim Roselando]

Three different methods to analyze power generation! The first two you can clearly see the difference in the way they take pressure and send out force. The last is just a solo demo but clearly shows their powering.

*

Old Bagwa guy with Wholesome Force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA&feature=PlayList&p=747672668D0723FD&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=34

*

Alan Orr with their CSL Hip Action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8

*

Andreas Hoffman with their Weng Hip Action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_sau5pe6HY&feature=related


Back to lurk mode! :)

[kung fu fighter]

Here is another good technique to experience what the integrated whole body power and dynamic rooting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDzPoDR7xXQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRJu_u2EWKs

[Ultimatewingchun]

Three different methods to analyze power generation! The first two you can clearly see the difference in the way they take pressure and send out force. The last is just a solo demo but clearly shows their powering.

*

Old Bagwa guy with Wholesome Force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA&feature=PlayList&p=747672668D0723FD&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=34

*

Alan Orr with their CSL Hip Action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8

*

Andreas Hoffman with their Weng Hip Action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_sau5pe6HY&feature=related


Back to lurk mode! :)

***Three good vids, Jim...

[shawchemical]

Except snakes.

Oh ,and worms, fish, jellyfish, protozoa, ...

Snakes have a pelvis.

[anerlich]

OK, but do they have hips in the context of this discussion?

Earlier in the thread Hendrik claims they do not.

Glad to meet someone even more pedantic than I :p

[shawchemical]

OK, but do they have hips in the context of this discussion?

Earlier in the thread Hendrik claims they do not.

Glad to meet someone even more pedantic than I :p

Well Ill be even more pedantic, and make a further distinction that snakes don't but pythons do......

But no, not in the terms of this discussion.

[Knifefighter]

Here is another good technique to experience what the integrated whole body power and dynamic rooting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDzPoDR7xXQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRJu_u2EWKs

LOL @ anyone taking those parlor tricks seriously.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that a lot of this pointing the fingers and chi visualizations just help people who lack understanding of body mechanics to recruit muscle fibers more effectively. A person could do the same thing just by having a better understanding of their muscles.

[Knifefighter]

I think that a lot of this pointing the fingers and chi visualizations just help people who lack understanding of body mechanics to recruit muscle fibers more effectively. A person could do the same thing just by having a better understanding of their muscles.

Yep... you want a better understanding of "structure" take a physics and a biomechanics class.

You want to develop the ability to "pump the hips" to most effectively deliver power? Learn and train with Olympic lifting technique. You'll develop the ability to produce more power by "pumping the hips" doing 6 months of Olympic lifting than you would doing years of "structure" drills.

[Hendrik]

I think that a lot of this pointing the fingers and chi visualizations just help people who lack understanding of body mechanics to recruit muscle fibers more effectively. A person could do the same thing just by having a better understanding of their muscles.


Sound proper but nope.

The qi cultivation go deeper then muscle fibers and body mechanics. In fact, one no longer uses one's mind after the intermediate level. That is the level of let go and let God. Until one is there one's mind doesnt know how is it like.

and thus, it is not what you think and what you think your understanding could substitute.

Notice, I use the term Qi cultivation not Visualization. because one no longer visualize after the intermediate level. One let go the mind, thus, even visualization is a burden.


It is an evident that most doesnt know what is Qi cultivation, have never done it, but read and passing misleading information which is logical according to their mind's logic, however, the mind's logic itself is a screw up. So, it becomes a mess.

[Hendrik]

Yep... you want a better understanding of "structure" take a physics and a biomechanics class.



Sure, up to a certain degree. but those doesnt help at intermediate level.

Why?

The mind does not fully control the body. in fact, it doesnt know the body. and when the mind starts to pay attention to the body and start control the body, it creates mess.

What is the evidence?
if the mind know the body, it will not create Stress which is counter the needs of the body to fullfil the delusion of false security. it will also not twisted the body and damage it when the mind is pre occupied. So, what you think it is the master there -- the mind --- is just some computational machine which is not that useful at all to manage the body.

Thus, the six directional force vectors layer and the Qi layer of training is needed to aids the situation.


As for Physics, that is a general concept which is great to know, but human body is a distributive system not lump system.

Human body is not a rod in a lab.

Physics deals well with basic rule however it becomes really complex when dealing with joints and joints which are moving and forces from different angles.

Thus, one needs a very complex simulation just to explain a normal human physical movement which needs super computer to carry out.
The mind will never have this type of capacity to spend in a high speed encounter.

Not to mention, that is just some simple human physical movements not even when it deals with the six directional force vectors when things get real complex.

[Knifefighter]

As for Physics, that is a general concept which is great to know, but human body is a distributive system not lump system.

Human body is not a rod in a lab.

Physics deals well with basic rule however it becomes really complex when dealing with joints and joints which are moving and forces from different angles.

Thus, one needs a very complex simulation just to explain a normal human physical movement which needs super computer to carry out.
The mind will never have this type of capacity to spend in a high speed encounter.

Not to mention, that is just some simple human physical movements not even when it deals with the six directional force vectors when things get real complex.

That's why you need to couple it with biomechanics. Add an exercise physiology class to that and you wouldn't talk the nonsense you talk now.

[Hendrik]

That's why you need to couple it with biomechanics.

Add an exercise physiology class to that
\
and you wouldn't talk the nonsense you talk now.


lots of love to you and accept you as who you are.

[bennyvt]

Yeh I have always taken chi like most religions. It is the minds way of explaining what they didn't have the technology to understand. "Wow if I put my elbow there it is stronger as it aligns the joints and at an angle of greater support" turns into "if you put your elbow there your chi will flow and make it stronger."
Good for people back in the dark ages but people still sell the stuff now.

[shawchemical]

Last time I checked the laws of physics were still in place. That means you can't transfer weight into the ground.

Correct, the laws have never changed. But, your point is also wrong.

Up to the breaking point of the friction between foot ( or foot covering) and the ground surface, a force balance will result in the ground "pushing" back even though it does not play an active role.

[kung fu fighter]

Yip Man was said to always have people on their heels or their toes, just teetering off balance. This was the core of what Hawkins taught me. Ho Kam Ming showed me the same thing, as did Wong Shun Leung. I can see Chu Shang Tin do the same. They epitomize what is in Yip Man WCK as "Lai Lou Hui Sung, Lut Sao Jik Chung."

Other branches like Weng Chun and Yik Kam WCK did the same. I was surprised when Andreas Hoffman did the same, although he looked like a different horse, he still gyrated his pelvis like love making. Hendrik Santo also does the same idea, but subtler. Others I met had some of it, or not.



Hi Robert,

Have you ever seen any of Yip Man's first generations students such as Hawkins, Ho Kam Ming, Wong Shun Leung and Chu Shang Tin apply An Jing and Hua Jing? If So which ones?

[k gledhill]

Hi Robert,

Have you ever seen any of Yip Man's first generations students such as Hawkins, Ho Kam Ming, Wong Shun Leung and Chu Shang Tin apply An Jing and Hua Jing? If So which ones?

The 'teetering' was a chi-sao balance result, not the fighting, so the teetering on toes etc...is a result of being in contact developing good VT qualities. But not for fighting ie we don't engage with opponents, then make them 'teeter' on their toes....:D
The better you get at VT the less you 'teeter' , you make others teeter in drilling.
Doing basic lok sao , with inward/forward elbow pressure and stance, can induce guys to over push, under push, overcompensate etc...so the results are a feeling of teetering back and forth in attempts to maintain equalization of the elbows forwards with the senior student/coach.
A good practitioner can shut this down with elbows and hips as VT tries to teach us the connection to fighting.
When we spar its not 'drilling' in ygkym with 2 arms extended , all the results of drilling come out to make us connected to all the 'parts' we are trying to make work in unison as we engage the opponent in the 'clash' striking and attacking them.

Sparring with students can show the goals meant to be sought after , rather than making them get wrong ideas with overindulgence in chi-sao drills. They start to look for answers to guys doing something in drills then it gets into creating 'stuff' purely functional in a game of 2 arms extended rolling...clinch ideas appear and so on...

man sao / wu sao...first thing we do at the beginning of each form...along the line ...one arm leading, the other by the elbow/bicep

[bennyvt]

yeh its more of a screwing with you or testing yous stance them something you strive for in a fight. He you had a good waist and they weren't playing with you they would just be punching you maybe pulling you into it but not just getting you to wobble around. Barry does this with me alot as if he chi sao'ed with me to his level he would flog me. So he just controls and only hits me when i do something stupid (which i do regulaly). Actually my teacher got praise for this in hong kong as he simply didn't want to hit people so he just used control.

[CFT]

Benny, you need to get your predictive texting sorted out! :p

[t_niehoff]

Correct, the laws have never changed. But, your point is also wrong.

Up to the breaking point of the friction between foot ( or foot covering) and the ground surface, a force balance will result in the ground "pushing" back even though it does not play an active role.

No.

The mechanics of the YJKYM, the foundation body structure of WCK, is that you use the body in a spring-like way, with one end of the spring being your feet (the balls of your feet actually) and the other end of the spring being the contact point with your opponent (and his pressure). When he applies pressure to the spring (your body), the spring compresses (so you are using his pressure to "load"). The ground doesn't push back -- it can't. Nor does the pressure go into the ground -- it can't. But because the opponent is actually pressing the spring into the ground (compressing it), it feels like this is happening. And if you do this while standing on a scale, you see that you actually get "heavier" (from the pressure), just as if your opponent was pressing down on the top of your head.

[Hendrik]

The mechanics of the YJKYM, the foundation body structure of WCK, is that you use the body in a spring-like way, with one end of the spring being your feet (the balls of your feet actually) and the other end of the spring being the contact point with your opponent (and his pressure). When he applies pressure to the spring (your body), the spring compresses (so you are using his pressure to "load"). The ground doesn't push back -- it can't. Nor does the pressure go into the ground -- it can't. But because the opponent is actually pressing the spring into the ground (compressing it), it feels like this is happening. And if you do this while standing on a scale, you see that you actually get "heavier" (from the pressure), just as if your opponent was pressing down on the top of your head.

The above is called resistance force or Tiing Jin. it is a resistance because the "spring" can break due to over loaded by the in coming momentum or curve momentum. and at the instant, one loaded, one needs to keep one's position and balance carefully. one needs to move with care; and the "spring " itself is problematic when it face wrestling when incoming force vectors are keep changing and one needs to constantly adjust one's structure to keep up with that changes.

Hua Jin or dissolve force is analogy to pushing into a huge bag of packaging pop con filler. the bag of pop con filler doesnt response back. but the pusher cant "focus" one's force. due to one is like a bag of pop con without little link to the pusher's force, one is more free to move with less needs to keep up with what is the in coming changes compare with resistance jin.

That too is in the WCK YJKYM structure. This type of force vectors re align art is an advance art in TCMA IMA, along with WCK's Short Jin , these are lost items and it is totally counter intuitive compare with those theories of structure. It is extremely not baijong or kiu sau at all. it is let go and let god. See a Pop con back doesnt need to bai jong or kiu sau, you can hug it any way you want.

[CFT]

Hendrik - this hua jing (faa ging) - do you do it via arms/bridge contact? Can you dissolve a force that has come into contact with the body directly?

[chusauli]

Hi Robert,

Have you ever seen any of Yip Man's first generations students such as Hawkins, Ho Kam Ming, Wong Shun Leung and Chu Shang Tin apply An Jing and Hua Jing? If So which ones?

Navin, I must ask you a question. Can you see An Jing (Hidden Power) or Hua Jing (Neutralizing Power) or is this a descriptive term?

If you know the answer, you don't ask the question.

Of course, you can feel it - it seems like the guy is doing nothing but he is strangely powerful and neutralizing all your movements.

Have you had this experience before?

[t_niehoff]

The above is called resistance force or Tiing Jin. it is a resistance because the "spring" can break due to over loaded by the in coming momentum or curve momentum. and at the instant, one loaded, one needs to keep one's position and balance carefully. one needs to move with care; and the "spring " itself is problematic when it face wrestling when incoming force vectors are keep changing and one needs to constantly adjust one's structure to keep up with that changes.


Anything and everything is potentially problematic, and how well anything works depends on how good you are at doing it.

For me, it's analogous to riding a surf board -- it requires continual adjustment to stay on the board as the "force vectors" keep changing.



Hua Jin or dissolve force is analogy to pushing into a huge bag of packaging pop con filler. the bag of pop con filler doesnt response back. but the pusher cant "focus" one's force. due to one is like a bag of pop con without little link to the pusher's force, one is more free to move with less needs to keep up with what is the in coming changes compare with resistance jin.

That too is in the WCK YJKYM structure.


Resistance is anything that "resists" or deals with what your opponent is doing. What you describe above is resistance too, just a different type.

But I do agree that "dissolving" is another aspect of YJKYM structure.



This type of force vectors re align art is an advance art in TCMA IMA,


There is no such thing as "advanced art" or "advanced approach" -- it's just another way of using our body to deal with pressures.

It's not that one way is "better" or "more advanced" than the other, just they are different and each are better suited for dealing with different types of pressures. For example, the spring-like mechanic doesn't work well when being lifted/uprooted whereas the "dissolving" does.

And, fwiw, I don't think these things are unique to TCMA.



along with WCK's Short Jin , these are lost items


No they're not.



and it is totally counter intuitive compare with those theories of structure. It is extremely not baijong or kiu sau at all. it is let go and let god. See a Pop con back doesnt need to bai jong or kiu sau, you can hug it any way you want.

I think you over-idealize its usefulness.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik - this hua jing (faa ging) - do you do it via arms/bridge contact?

Can you dissolve a force that has come into contact with the body directly?


Thus, I have heard,
body directly dissolve is the first things needed to train and get some feel of the process. one needs to know what is this type of jin. arm and bridge is secondary. the body needs to have it first.



as for how much one can takes or how good is one's kung fu that is a different issue and varies in individual. but one needs to know where is it hidden in the YJKYM.

This is absolutely not the general so called forward pressure training. in fact that forward pressure training needs to be dissolved at intermediate level, at advance level it becomes a dynamic force vectors and no longer using the forward pressure which is imbalance by itself.

[Hendrik]

Good opinion based on your view.


we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing instead of speculating with imagination right?


Could you please describe in details what is dissolving for you; how to get there; the process to get there ; or what is the key to get there ; also where is the training of this in the YJKYM ?


since you said,


It's not that one way is "better" or "more advanced" than the other, just they are different and each are better suited for dealing with different types of pressures.



For example, the spring-like mechanic doesn't work well when being lifted/uprooted whereas the "dissolving" does.


And, fwiw, I don't think these things are unique to TCMA.




For me, it is advance because there is a prerequisite conditioning before one can get there, it is not just words but reality to anyone who has walked this path.

also it is better then the resistance as said in the TCMA IMA classic,

In boxing there are myriad schools. Although they differ in form and scale, they can never go beyond reliance on the strong defeating the weak or the swift conquering the slow. Yet these are the result of physical endowments and not practical application and experience in handling the force vectors (Jin)


and I am not revealing what is that pre requisite here; because there is too many will say " Oh I have that too." and in fact one is totally clueless.


And I also hope you are not another "Twister" in Ip Man 2. :D

[chusauli]

From the TaiJi Classic from Wang Zong Yue there is a passage:

"One feather cannot be added. A fly cannot land."

This describes Ting Jing and Hua Jing.

[k gledhill]

yeh its more of a screwing with you or testing yous stance them something you strive for in a fight. He you had a good waist and they weren't playing with you they would just be punching you maybe pulling you into it but not just getting you to wobble around. Barry does this with me alot as if he chi sao'ed with me to his level he would flog me. So he just controls and only hits me when i do something stupid (which i do regulaly). Actually my teacher got praise for this in hong kong as he simply didn't want to hit people so he just used control.

exactly, testing making each other work to stay on the axis line as CK while moving to attack and counter... Fighting we have more movement, lateral steps , shuffling going in suddenly going back at an angle to a direct line of force at us etc.... motion , momentum, arm movements relative to our drilling lines in motion....drills take on distancing to deliver force and good angles, rather than sticky following over controlling ideas, using way too much hands.

Sparring is the measure of the results of the drills...do you fall over backwards when touched :D

[Hendrik]

From the TaiJi Classic from Wang Zong Yue there is a passage:

"One feather cannot be added. A fly cannot land."

This describes Ting Jing and Hua Jing.



Yup! Agree!

[t_niehoff]

Good opinion based on your view.


All any of us have -- including you, Hendrik -- is our own personal views.

Some people's views are based on theory ("thus I have heard").

Some people's views are based on experience ("thus I am doing").



we need to make sure we are talking about the same thing instead of speculating with imagination right?


I am not speculating, I am talking about what I do. Are we talking about the same thing? That can only be determined through personal experience, not with words over the internet.



Could you please describe in details what is dissolving for you; how to get there; the process to get there ; or what is the key to get there ; also where is the training of this in the YJKYM ?


Your question of "where is the training of this in the YJKYM" makes no sense. The YJKYM is a way of using your body (not some stance), so your question is asking "where is the training of this way of using your body in this way of using your body". You train YJKYM by doing YJKYM. Standing in a horse is not a YJKYM -- YJKYM is *using* your body to do something specific. If you are not using your body that way, then you aren't doing YJKYM.

There is no training in dealing with pressure except through (by) dealing with pressures. This is the basis of Robert's very basic structure tests (give you some pressure to deal with).

"Dissolving", like everything else, comes from the body, and it involves a spiraling or screwing action (though not dodging or avoiding) initiated by the pressure from your opponent.

You get there by being show the skill and then practicing the skill.




For me, it is advance because there is a prerequisite conditioning before one can get there, it is not just words but reality to anyone who has walked this path.

also it is better then the resistance as said in the TCMA IMA classic,

In boxing there are myriad schools. Although they differ in form and scale, they can never go beyond reliance on the strong defeating the weak or the swift conquering the slow. Yet these are the result of physical endowments and not practical application and experience in handling the force vectors (Jin)


That's all bullsh1t. It's what IMAists tell each other to make themselves feel superior, but it isn't true. It's not true that other arts only rely on the strong overcoming the weak or the fast overcoming the slow (I guess when Royce at 180 lbs defeated Akebono, the 450 lb. sumo grand champion that was just because Royce was physically superior to Akenono?). Nor is it true that the IMAists have this ability. Tell me, Hendrik, where are ANY IMA fighters who can beat stronger, faster fighters? They don't exist -- except in your imagination.

Instead of looking to IMA "classics" which are mostly theoretical nonsense, look to actual practice, to what people are actually doing in fighting.

The TCMAs and the IMAs don't have some marvelous, superior skills and ways of training that the really good, proven fighters don't. The TCMAs and IMAs don't produce ANY quality fighters -- except the ones who go and train with the good, proven fighters.

I'll tell you a story. Some years ago a guy, Mario Napoli -- an ex judoka turned tai ji practitioner -- got on the neija list and was talking about how he came to see that tai ji and IMA "principles" were essentially the same as judo "principles". The IMA purists told him at great length that he was wrong and that he didn't really know what he was talking about. Tai ji is "internal" and judo is "external" and blah, blah, blah. Go see the "masters" they'll show you the purists said. Then this guy said he was going to Chen Village to participate in the push hands competition there. All the purists laughed and said, "good, now you'll see." And they waited for him to return with his tail between his legs, being shown how "real tai ji" is nothing like judo. Mario won the Chen Village competition (the same one that CXW won).

These things are nothing unique to TCMAs or IMAs or WCK. Judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc. all have them too. They just don't ensconce them in pseudo-religious and cultural bullsh1t and then pat themselves on the back for how "deep" their knowledge is.



and I am not revealing what is that pre requisite here; because there is too many will say " Oh I have that too." and in fact one is totally clueless.


It is easy to believe that you have these skills when you aren't going out on the mats and genuinely mixing it up.

[bennyvt]

sorry my preemptive text gets me as I write at work on my phone. The first bit is ok but after a couple of lines I cant see the writing properly so sometimes I miss stuff. well it may be the wrong words but lest they are spelt right.:D

[Hendrik]

"Dissolving", like everything else, comes from the body, and it involves a spiraling or screwing action (though not dodging or avoiding) initiated by the pressure from your opponent.

based on this above, we are not refer to the same thing at all. totally different. So there is no need of further discussion.



You do sound more and more like Twister. hahaha.

[YungChun]

AS Robert told me when I first began training with him, "good WCK is based on control; poor WCK is based on avoidance." If your WCK is based on avoidance -- parries, deflections, running from pressure, etc. -- you can't be using and can't develop the body structure Robert and I are talking about.

I also disagree because this seems to totally tosses out the softer side of the art.

Any structure, mechanic, position, stance, whatever has a limit.. Chun does not fight force with force.. Yes, if you can break through their resistance using your superior "structure" do it, but if you can't you MUST change that structure first.

Again back to your example--if a small woman--you think she is likely to break down large opponent's "structure" with greater more powerful "structure"--power vs power?

Or rather, by adapting to force and using their power against them via change to superior position via timing AND use of sound structure...?

See it's not one or the other--it's all these things.

It's not "avoidance" (how shameful) it's intelligence: Knowing how when and where to apply force.. Force against force is true Caveman Wing Chun aka Big Man's Wing Chun...

And if you don't understand how to change and adapt with superior position the only one going to get tossed around in ChiSao like a rag doll is.............you.

[kung fu fighter]

Navin, I must ask you a question. Can you see An Jing (Hidden Power) or Hua Jing (Neutralizing Power) or is this a descriptive term?

No, Hua jing and An jing can't be seen, unless you know exactly what subtle things to look for, but they can definately be felt. I guess my question should have been which of Yip Man's first generation students such as Hawkins, Ho Kam Ming, Wong Shun Leung and Chu Shang Tin have you felt hua jing and An jing from?

[YungChun]

No, Hua jing and An jing can't be seen, unless you know exactly what subtle things to look for, but they can definately be felt. I guess my question should have been which of Yip Man's first generation students such as Hawkins, Ho Kam Ming, Wong Shun Leung and Chu Shang Tin have you felt hua jing and An jing from?

Anyone who has good Chun hands will have these things...

When I used to play hands with William Moy I would at times try use as much force, speed and power as possible (along with position). And while I outweighed him by at least 60 to 70 pounds, could bench press him all day and had decent skills...he would simply adjust his "structure" my power/force would disappear and I would find myself slowly getting moved off balance as gently as you please.. (he would also giggle)... :)

There's a structure test.

[t_niehoff]

I also disagree because this seems to totally tosses out the softer side of the art.


Soft-hard is more theoretical nonsense. There are only skills, mechanics, etc. appropriate for the task.



Any structure, mechanic, position, stance, whatever has a limit.. Chun does not fight force with force..


Yes, everything has a limit - or more accurately, its place. This is why fighting involves continual adjustment.

You can only fight force with force. Talking about not fighting force with force is nonsense -- you only ever hear nonfighters talk about that since fighters, by fighting, know better. In WCK, as the kuit tells us, we "use smart force to overcome dumb force."



Yes, if you can break through their resistance using your superior "structure" do it, but if you can't you MUST change that structure first.


You don't understand what I'm talking about -- body structure is using your body to do a certain thing. Look, if you want to push a car up a hill, you'll use an appropriate body structure as that is the only way to get the job done. You can't just use your body any way you like.



Again back to your example--if a small woman--you think she is likely to break down large opponent's "structure" with greater more powerful "structure"--power vs power?


Oh, and instead she should charge straight at him chain punching? LOL!

It's not power vs. power or a struggle of strength, it is using smart force (leverage and momentum) to overcome his dumb force (brute strength). By breaking his structure, you take away his strength advantage.



Or rather, by adapting to force and using their power against them via change to superior position via timing AND use of sound structure...?

See it's not one or the other--it's all these things.


Only by having good body structure first can you adapt to what they do, use their power, change position, etc. It's is the basis for everything else.



It's not "avoidance" (how shameful) it's intelligence: Knowing how when and where to apply force.. Force against force is true Caveman Wing Chun aka Big Man's Wing Chun...


Charging in with chain punches is caveman WCK and is bigman WCK. It's a very unsophisticated way to use the WCK tools, and it only uses a extremely limited number of the tools (the chain punching, front kick, etc.). This is what the teenagers who fought did from Yip Man's school (like Cheung). Yip gave them a very simple way to fight since they were not very skilled. That's fine for beginners, but some people never move on.

[t_niehoff]

based on this above, we are not refer to the same thing at all. totally different. So there is no need of further discussion.

You do sound more and more like Twister. hahaha.

Yes, I'm sure it is different. The other difference is that I can do what I talk about. :)

[chusauli]

I also disagree because this seems to totally tosses out the softer side of the art.

Any structure, mechanic, position, stance, whatever has a limit.. Chun does not fight force with force.. Yes, if you can break through their resistance using your superior "structure" do it, but if you can't you MUST change that structure first.

Again back to your example--if a small woman--you think she is likely to break down large opponent's "structure" with greater more powerful "structure"--power vs power?

Or rather, by adapting to force and using their power against them via change to superior position via timing AND use of sound structure...?

See it's not one or the other--it's all these things.

It's not "avoidance" (how shameful) it's intelligence: Knowing how when and where to apply force.. Force against force is true Caveman Wing Chun aka Big Man's Wing Chun...

And if you don't understand how to change and adapt with superior position the only one going to get tossed around in ChiSao like a rag doll is.............you.

No one is tossing out the soft side of the art. But there is an overponderance of evasion in WCK - too much shifting, stepping, etc.

My method is a small man's method. It makes sense that a woman or small man would want to make use of optimal structure to develop power. The cure from always running away from force is to take the weight on your bones. In this way, you understand the vectors and alignment. And when you can control with that, and disperse incoming force on different joints and segments while maintaining your hands free, you have a more devastating arsenal.

It always comes down to what you know and how to apply it in the moment. If a big guy also has structure, its also a matter of timing and sensitivity.

[duende]

No one is tossing out the soft side of the art. But there is an overponderance of evasion in WCK - too much shifting, stepping, etc.

My method is a small man's method. It makes sense that a woman or small man would want to make use of optimal structure to develop power. The cure from always running away from force is to take the weight on your bones. In this way, you understand the vectors and alignment. And when you can control with that, and disperse incoming force on different joints and segments while maintaining your hands free, you have a more devastating arsenal.

It always comes down to what you know and how to apply it in the moment. If a big guy also has structure, its also a matter of timing and sensitivity.

This parrallels my experiences as well.

Too much running away in WC these days. Much of which is thought incorrectly as "receiving energy" IMO.

Muscle/tendon/bone structure and power generation teaches us how to engage and dissipate/nuetralize oncoming energy without giving up space or self-centerline positioning. Joint power is key.

Much of this understanding is emphasized in Bai Jong facing and "our side" of the bridging engagement... part of "knowing yourself". As well as what we call Dip Gwat Gong.

Nice post Robert.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And needless to say, once you enter into this territory, inside of one heartbeat you could be within literally an inch or two of going to clinch mode - wherein many things can happen...including the need to be able to wrestle/grapple.

[chusauli]

Absolutely, and from here, one can do incidental moves of trapping, tying up, head control, set ups for takedowns, jointlocks, throws and kneeing, elbowing and other close quarters striking.

[YungChun]

No one is tossing out the soft side of the art. But there is an overponderance of evasion in WCK - too much shifting, stepping, etc.

I've never seen any of that in actual sparring or fighting..but I am unsure what you mean by too much "stepping"..



My method is a small man's method. It makes sense that a woman or small man would want to make use of optimal structure to develop power.

I don't think anyone is going to disagree with using optimal mechanics..



The cure from always running away from force is to take the weight on your bones.

The only "running away" I learned was something called a JaoSao, or JaoDa..

Aside from the game of sparring/dueling the only time I learned to move back is when they move you back.. We learned to use that force to make a new aligned line of force..




If a big guy also has structure, its also a matter of timing and sensitivity.
Right, timing and sensitivity in order to change..

[duende]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chusauli
If a big guy also has structure, its also a matter of timing and sensitivity.

Originally Posted by Yung chun
Right, timing and sensitivity in order to change..





aka chi sau time frame.

[YungChun]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chusauli
If a big guy also has structure, its also a matter of timing and sensitivity.

Originally Posted by Yung chun
Right, timing and sensitivity in order to change..





aka chi sau time frame.

Meaning???

[duende]

Meaning???

Meaning you intercepted the ball, but didn't make a touch down.

So now you're gonna have to use Chi Sau to:

1. open up a new angle of attack

2. create leverage so that you break your opponents guard

3. both

[YungChun]

Meaning you intercepted the ball, but didn't make a touch down.

So now you're gonna have to use Chi Sau to:

1. open up a new angle of attack

2. create leverage so that you break your opponents guard

3. both

Oh okay.. I had no idea what you meant using the term ChiSao in that context.

[bennyvt]

I think of stepping back as like a release valve. You don't just step, but when the pressure is so much that you are about to collapse then the step releases it. Using angles means they don't just come straight at you. Being a small person myself I know if you don't step back when needed you just get run over. This is why when the grappling first got big and alot of VT guys were saying to get in a lower stance and strike I didn't like it.

[duende]

Oh okay.. I had no idea what you meant using the term ChiSao in that context.

Yep! Chi Sau is for fighting! Not Rolling! ;)

[YungChun]

I think of stepping back as like a release valve. You don't just step, but when the pressure is so much that you are about to collapse then the step releases it. Using angles means they don't just come straight at you. Being a small person myself I know if you don't step back when needed you just get run over. This is why when the grappling first got big and alot of VT guys were saying to get in a lower stance and strike I didn't like it.

Generally as far as in-contact goes I learned to let their force do the work of moving me back, if they broke my stance... I would then use that force to make a new alignment..store that energy in the spring and fire it back at them...

Perhaps others also do this but it's hard to tell from the emphasis on certain terms.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think of stepping back as like a release valve. You don't just step, but when the pressure is so much that you are about to collapse then the step releases it. Using angles means they don't just come straight at you. Being a small person myself I know if you don't step back when needed you just get run over. This is why when the grappling first got big and alot of VT guys were saying to get in a lower stance and strike I didn't like it.

***EVERY word is correct.

You stay as long as you can, you go forward whenever you can. And you're ready, willing, and able to sidestep, back up, cut an angle, change a level, and whatever else you may have to do so as not to fight force-against-force whenever you have to.

This, that, and the wisdom (based upon experience) to know the difference.

[YungChun]

***EVERY word is correct.

You stay as long as you can, you go forward whenever you can. And you're ready, willing, and able to sidestep, back up, cut an angle, change a level, and whatever else you may have to do so as not to fight force-against-force whenever you have to.

This, that, and the wisdom (based upon experience) to know the difference.

I assume you are including outside movement?

I like to make the distinction.. When on the outside (dueling) there is no "wrong" way to move...so long as it works for you..

[Ultimatewingchun]

Not sure what you mean by outside movement in this context.

[YungChun]

Not sure what you mean by outside movement in this context.

Bridged V non-contact outside free movement.

[duende]

I'm beginning to suspect that people here aren't really getting what running away from energy really means. :(

[Ultimatewingchun]

Bridged V non-contact outside free movement.

***Are you referring to what we call in TWC the exchange step?

[YungChun]

I'm beginning to suspect that people here aren't really getting what running away from energy really means. :(

Well there is certainly more than one way to interpret that..

Why not explain exactly what you mean by it?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm beginning to suspect that people here aren't really getting what running away from energy really means. :(

***Explain your suspicions.

[duende]

Well there is certainly more than one way to interpret that..

Why not explain exactly what you mean by it?

Giving up space. Not truly influencing your opponent on contact.

Talk more later... Gotta run.

[YungChun]

***Are you referring to what we call in TWC the exchange step?

No.

I am making a distinction between "movement" when bridged/in-contact Vs "movement" when outside, often in pre-engagement, and mainly as it applies to sparring or competitive fighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

...in relation to this:

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
***EVERY word is correct.

"You stay as long as you can, you go forward whenever you can. And you're ready, willing, and able to sidestep, back up, cut an angle, change a level, and whatever else you may have to do so as not to fight force-against-force whenever you have to.

This, that, and the wisdom (based upon experience) to know the difference."
..................................

YOU SAID THIS:

"I assume you are including outside movement?

I like to make the distinction.. When on the outside (dueling) there is no 'wrong' way to move...so long as it works for you.." (Jim)
................................

***Well, yeah... so long as it works for you...there's no right or wrong way from non contact - because there are A number of things you can do from there.

[kung fu fighter]

The above is called resistance force or Tiing Jin. it is a resistance because the "spring" can break due to over loaded by the in coming momentum or curve momentum. and at the instant, one loaded, one needs to keep one's position and balance carefully. one needs to move with care; and the "spring " itself is problematic when it face wrestling when incoming force vectors are keep changing and one needs to constantly adjust one's structure to keep up with that changes.

Hua Jin or dissolve force is analogy to pushing into a huge bag of packaging pop con filler. the bag of pop con filler doesnt response back. but the pusher cant "focus" one's force. due to one is like a bag of pop con without little link to the pusher's force, one is more free to move with less needs to keep up with what is the in coming changes compare with resistance jin.

That too is in the WCK YJKYM structure. This type of force vectors re align art is an advance art in TCMA IMA, along with WCK's Short Jin , these are lost items and it is totally counter intuitive compare with those theories of structure. It is extremely not baijong or kiu sau at all. it is let go and let god. See a Pop con back doesnt need to bai jong or kiu sau, you can hug it any way you want.

Hendrik,

What exactly is packaging pop con filler?? can you post a link to what it is?

[chusauli]

Hendrik,

What exactly is packaging pop con filler?? can you post a link to what it is?

I think he means popcorn filler! LOL!

[anerlich]

Talk more later... Gotta run.

Towards or away from the energy?

[chusauli]

Sure KFF!

"Dampening the energy" is when your opponent is real sweaty and your arms get all wet during Chi Sao practice!

Shhh! Its a secret!

I'm afraid there's not much I can teach you on this forum without the physical interaction and in person interaction. I don't have much time as patients keep me busy!