The Biggest Problem with Wing Chun

[Ultimatewingchun]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

And I believe it's the ultra secretive nature of the art historically - combined with giant egos...

that has made the art - as a whole - suffer.

Let's take the Yip Man lineage for example. As great a martial artist as he probably was - he only taught people bits-and-pieces of the art, and most of the instruction in his school was left to whatever senior students were in attendance at any given point in time.

And we all know by now that behind-closed-doors he was said to have taught this to that person...the next guy maybe something else, a third guy got pieces the first two didn't get, and so on.

And then everybody scrambled in some way or another to see what they had, what the other guy had, what they missed, what could they learn to surpass the guy standing next to them, and on, and on.

And from the point of view of the instructor who engaged in this kind of teaching - this was somehow seen as a way to "protect the rice bowl" - as the saying used to go. (Keep the students coming back to fill your rice bowl with more).

And very similar things have gone on, it would seem, in other wing chun lineages.

Secrecy + Giant egos = Problems.

What a mess! :cool:

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

[HumbleWCGuy]

As meager as the requirement sounds, if every instructor were required to have just one smoker under their belt before being ranked, it would change the nature of the art dramatically. If people actually fought, there would be a lot more agreement on how to do things. There are far more ways to get your A$$ kicked than there are to win a fights.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That is one way to attempt to tackle the secrecy issue, but the giant ego thing is something else.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't see too many TWC instructors having secrets. It is a good marketing tool though. Outsiders will flock to find the secret ingredient and students will hang around for the instructor to reveal the secret. Some instructor like to reveal, "secret never before seen techniques," as a way to import other martial arts ideas into their "100% authentic TWC?'


There is always going to be ego involved. Everyone should believe that their own way is the best.

[YungChun]

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?


Not a gosh darn thing....

That's why in the end it's up to each person with their own work, research, intelligence and experience, to go out and find the answers themselves...

Folks will find their own way for better or worse.. The arguments will continue unless and until one way surpasses all others in performance to a high degree in fighting and so far this has not happened.

Still the art evolves..

[Wayfaring]

driving towards the competitions are a good thing. training in a mma or full contact environment is another. those 2 things tend to keep the ego in check. also with the secrecy if something is working consistently in that environment everyone learns it - it helps with that too.

i'd say just keep moving towards that. when people put things to test it removes delusion, ego and a lot of that undesirable stuff.

[sihing]

driving towards the competitions are a good thing. training in a mma or full contact environment is another. those 2 things tend to keep the ego in check. also with the secrecy if something is working consistently in that environment everyone learns it - it helps with that too.

i'd say just keep moving towards that. when people put things to test it removes delusion, ego and a lot of that undesirable stuff.

I agree, that testing your training is a good thing, but to say that it keeps the ego in check, well maybe in regards to the people that are kicking your ass it does, but overall no it doesn't, which is clearly evident by the constant posting by people not even training in WC that post here constantly trying to change our mindset about what we are doing, lol...Testing does one thing, it reveals to the individual what he/she needs to work on or what is good within their skill set.

The biggest problem in Wing Chun today is too much thinking, too much posting and too much comparison to other arts. Just train, spar, realize/actualize all of it, contimplate the results to yourself and your coach/sifu, repeat repeat repeat up until you are personally satisfied with your skills, without the need or desire to compare it to what you see on youtube or spike tv...


James

[YungChun]

The biggest problem in Wing Chun today is too much thinking, too much posting and too much comparison to other arts. Just train, spar, realize/actualize all of it, contimplate the results to yourself and your coach/sifu, repeat repeat repeat up until you are personally satisfied with your skills, without the need or desire to compare it to what you see on youtube or spike tv...


That's somewhat hyperbolic IMO..

IMO the problems with the art don't stem from an abundance of posting or thinking.. Good thinking and good posting may well help the art..

Training more and more is great but it needs to be the right kind of training and if VT then with the right guidance....

In the end the crap will be the first to go.... VT is still evolving albeit perhaps having taken a few steps backward first..

[Frost]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

And I believe it's the ultra secretive nature of the art historically - combined with giant egos...

that has made the art - as a whole - suffer.

Let's take the Yip Man lineage for example. As great a martial artist as he probably was - he only taught people bits-and-pieces of the art, and most of the instruction in his school was left to whatever senior students were in attendance at any given point in time.

And we all know by now that behind-closed-doors he was said to have taught this to that person...the next guy maybe something else, a third guy got pieces the first two didn't get, and so on.

And then everybody scrambled in some way or another to see what they had, what the other guy had, what they missed, what could they learn to surpass the guy standing next to them, and on, and on.

And from the point of view of the instructor who engaged in this kind of teaching - this was somehow seen as a way to "protect the rice bowl" - as the saying used to go. (Keep the students coming back to fill your rice bowl with more).

And very similar things have gone on, it would seem, in other wing chun lineages.

Secrecy + Giant egos = Problems.

What a mess! :cool:

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

It’s easy compete in MMA events :)

Honestly though the only way to get rid of all the secrecy and bullsh*t in any art is to implement some form of full contact competitive environment, humbles idea is a good start (as is wayfrings idea of sparring and training in an MMA environment) but wing Chun needs its own full contact environment/tournament. It’s only through repetitive and frequent competition that you can see a schools true weakness and strength and whether it is a good school or not.

It’s easy to see if a boxing/Thai/BJJ school is good because you can see their competition records, the same goes for some forms of karate and even TKD its hard to sell the whole secret/deadly techniques if there is an open format for all the schools to compete in, people can see who is a good teacher and where the good schools are. Without a competition format it’s too easy to use the whole secret skills bull.

Note not everyone has to compete but the school itself has to turn out competitors, be it in MMA/ full contact kickboxing, san shou or even something like manup stand up or whatever it’s called that phils guys compete in.

[t_niehoff]

It’s easy compete in MMA events :)


It's even easier to go train at a good MMA gym, or get a MMA fighter to come to your school for privates (which is quite inexpensive when you spread the cost).



Honestly though the only way to get rid of all the secrecy and bullsh*t in any art is to implement some form of full contact competitive environment,


No, the ONLY way to get rid of bullsh1t (and secrecy is part of the bullsh1t) is through HOW YOU TRAIN. Sound athletic )"alive") training exposes bullsh1t.

Competition is often the end result of that training, but it's not the competition that exposes the bullsh1t, it is the training process. It's not a single boxing competitive match (a small sample) that exposes bullsh1t, it is the hundreds of hours of sparring in training (the HUGE sample) that exposes it.



humbles idea is a good start (as is wayfrings idea of sparring and training in an MMA environment) but wing Chun needs its own full contact environment/tournament. It’s only through repetitive and frequent competition that you can see a schools true weakness and strength and whether it is a good school or not.


On its face that sounds good, but is really not a very good idea. Using this reasoning, tai ji should have its own full contact competitions, every form of TCMA should have theirs, every karate style theirs, etc. So what you end up with is tons of different "competitions", with lots of poor fighters competing, etc. While this may be one way to over a very long time develop an art, there is an easier way. Good, proven fighters already exist, venues to meet and train with them already exist.



It’s easy to see if a boxing/Thai/BJJ school is good because you can see their competition records, the same goes for some forms of karate and even TKD its hard to sell the whole secret/deadly techniques if there is an open format for all the schools to compete in, people can see who is a good teacher and where the good schools are. Without a competition format it’s too easy to use the whole secret skills bull.


Good, sound athletic training will refute the whole "secret skills bull". The Dog Brothers' motto,"If you see it taught, you see it fought" exemplifies this -- imagine if a WCK instructor actually ONLY taught what he could consistently and successfully do while fighting/sparring. How many masters and grandmasters would there be? ;)



Note not everyone has to compete but the school itself has to turn out competitors, be it in MMA/ full contact kickboxing, san shou or even something like manup stand up or whatever it’s called that phils guys compete in.

And then you end up with bad 80s karate-style tournaments like Phil's guys compete in -- where scrubs "fight" scrubs. And then successful scrubs use this as evidence that they are "good." This is precisely what the karate guys did in the 60s and 70s.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel -- all we need to do is begin to train like all good fighters train, and to teach like good fighters and fight trainers teach. To do that, however, requires that we actually go train with good fighters and fight trainers.

BTW, it's ironic that someone who will never go and actually train with good fighters (yet will teach their arts without any training) complains about secrecy and "ego". Why not go train with good fighters except to preserve your precious ego?

[Frost]

It's even easier to go train at a good MMA gym, or get a MMA fighter to come to your school for privates (which is quite inexpensive when you spread the cost).



No, the ONLY way to get rid of bullsh1t (and secrecy is part of the bullsh1t) is through HOW YOU TRAIN. Sound athletic )"alive") training exposes bullsh1t.

Competition is often the end result of that training, but it's not the competition that exposes the bullsh1t, it is the training process. It's not a single boxing competitive match (a small sample) that exposes bullsh1t, it is the hundreds of hours of sparring in training (the HUGE sample) that exposes it.



On its face that sounds good, but is really not a very good idea. Using this reasoning, tai ji should have its own full contact competitions, every form of TCMA should have theirs, every karate style theirs, etc. So what you end up with is tons of different "competitions", with lots of poor fighters competing, etc. While this may be one way to over a very long time develop an art, there is an easier way. Good, proven fighters already exist, venues to meet and train with them already exist.



Good, sound athletic training will refute the whole "secret skills bull". The Dog Brothers' motto,"If you see it taught, you see it fought" exemplifies this -- imagine if a WCK instructor actually ONLY taught what he could consistently and successfully do while fighting/sparring. How many masters and grandmasters would there be? ;)



And then you end up with bad 80s karate-style tournaments like Phil's guys compete in -- where scrubs "fight" scrubs. And then successful scrubs use this as evidence that they are "good." This is precisely what the karate guys did in the 60s and 70s.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel -- all we need to do is begin to train like all good fighters train, and to teach like good fighters and fight trainers teach. To do that, however, requires that we actually go train with good fighters and fight trainers.

BTW, it's ironic that someone who will never go and actually train with good fighters (yet will teach their arts without any training) complains about secrecy and "ego". Why not go train with good fighters except to preserve your precious ego?

I agree it would be better if they competed in MMA rather than wing chuns own league, but the question was how to get rid of the secrecy etc and having a form of fighting competition that all wingchun styles trained for and competed in would get rid of this secrecy wouldn't you agree, much as kykashin karate guys compete in full contact knock down tournaments...I think as fighters they would be better served in an mma or full Thai style competition, but having their own competition format allows students to see where the good fighters train and gets rid of all the bullsh*t.

Saying just go and compete in MMA is fine but the arguements will come thick and fast, the rules hurt wing chun, the gloves etc disadvantage its practicioners and so on and so on, having its own competition format would get rid of a lot of these excuses

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good, sound athletic training will refute the whole "secret skills bull". The Dog Brothers' motto,"If you see it taught, you see it fought" exemplifies this -- imagine if a WCK instructor actually ONLY taught what he could consistently and successfully do while fighting/sparring. How many masters and grandmasters would there be?

See, that there people is THE THING.
Lineages and what this matter did or didn't do mean NOTHING.
It is WHAT YOU CAN DO.
There are no secret trainings that are worth anymore than to good core fundamentals.
The core is all we have, everything is built from THAT CORE and if the core is "rotten", well, all the "uber-deadly" in the world won't save it.
I can tell you this:
All the secret training and special training and advanced training in the world, still won't say you if you get a solid right cross to the jaw, period.

[t_niehoff]

I agree it would be better if they competed in MMA rather than wing chuns own league, but the question was how to get rid of the secrecy etc and having a form of fighting competition that all wingchun styles trained for and competed in would get rid of this secrecy wouldn't you agree,


Isn't it interesting that WCK people will do anything, come up with any excuse, etc. to avoid training/sparring with good, proven fighters? What does that tell you?

"Secrecy" isn't an issue IMO. As soon as someone starts talking secrecy, you know it is bullsh1t.

Competitions won't get rid of this sort of nonsense -- you will still have people doing things like "this is for competition" and THIS is "THE secret stuff that we keep behind closed doors."

What exposes bullsh1t is good, solid athletic training (with very good people) because by doing that, by going through that process, you will come to see for yourself what is and what is not bullsh1t.

I've cited this before, and I think it really explains things well:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/bullsh1t-meter/ (replace bullsh1t with the correct spelling to get the link to work)



much as kykashin karate guys compete in full contact knock down tournaments...


You think kyukushinkai is bereft of bullsh1t, do you?



I think as fighters they would be better served in an mma or full Thai style competition, but having their own competition format allows students to see where the good fighters train and gets rid of all the bullsh*t.


It's not the competition that gets rid of bullsh1t -- it's already gone long before the competitors compete. The PROCESS of sound, athletic training is what eliminates it. It's not like boxing or BJJ or wrestling competitions ferret out the bullsh1t or the nonsense or what works or doesn't work -- the hundreds of hours of sound, athletic training, the core being sparring, has already pruned that tree.



Saying just go and compete in MMA is fine but the arguements will come thick and fast, the rules hurt wing chun, the gloves etc disadvantage its practicioners and so on and so on, having its own competition format would get rid of a lot of these excuses

I'm not saying just go and fight in MMA, I'm saying to go and train/spar with really good fighters -- and learn from them how to effectively train. If you think, for example, that you have good ground skills, you don't need to go to compete at NAGA or the Pan Ams, you can just go train at a good BJJ school and you'll see.

When people actually go train with good, proven fighters, the bullsh1t ends.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You think kyukushinkai is bereft of bullsh1t, do you?

The amount of BS in Kyokushin can be pretty high.

[Frost]

The amount of BS in Kyokushin can be pretty high.

as high as the level of BS in arts that don't have a competition eliment, like say wing chun, southern mantis etc?

im not saying there isn't secrecy and BS in these arts, but having a full contact enviroment cuts down on the level of BS, and where the BS is its pretty easy to spot, would you listen to a kyokushin instructor who never produced a fighter, or a grappling coach that never entered a team in a competition?

[sanjuro_ronin]

as high as the level of BS in arts that don't have a competition eliment, like say wing chun, southern mantis etc?

im not saying there isn't secrecy and BS in these arts, but having a full contact enviroment cuts down on the level of BS, and where the BS is its pretty easy to spot, would you listen to a kyokushin instructor who never produced a fighter, or a grappling coach that never entered a team in a competition?

No, not that high, LOL
Kyokushin is still a "results oriented" MA, the problem is with the branches they focus solely on kyokushin competitions, some don't even hit to the face AT ALL in training.
Kyokushin, like many full contact MA, can be it's own worse enemy because it becomes narrow-minded.
Many Kyokushin guys saw that and branched out and we get SHIDOKAN, which is very good and Daidojuku which is great too, but the helmet is a bit disconcerning.

[Frost]

Isn't it interesting that WCK people will do anything, come up with any excuse, etc. to avoid training/sparring with good, proven fighters? What does that tell you?

"Secrecy" isn't an issue IMO. As soon as someone starts talking secrecy, you know it is bullsh1t.

Competitions won't get rid of this sort of nonsense -- you will still have people doing things like "this is for competition" and THIS is "THE secret stuff that we keep behind closed doors."

What exposes bullsh1t is good, solid athletic training (with very good people) because by doing that, by going through that process, you will come to see for yourself what is and what is not bullsh1t.

I've cited this before, and I think it really explains things well:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/bullsh1t-meter/ (replace bullsh1t with the correct spelling to get the link to work)



You think kyukushinkai is bereft of bullsh1t, do you?



It's not the competition that gets rid of bullsh1t -- it's already gone long before the competitors compete. The PROCESS of sound, athletic training is what eliminates it. It's not like boxing or BJJ or wrestling competitions ferret out the bullsh1t or the nonsense or what works or doesn't work -- the hundreds of hours of sound, athletic training, the core being sparring, has already pruned that tree.



I'm not saying just go and fight in MMA, I'm saying to go and train/spar with really good fighters -- and learn from them how to effectively train. If you think, for example, that you have good ground skills, you don't need to go to compete at NAGA or the Pan Ams, you can just go train at a good BJJ school and you'll see.

When people actually go train with good, proven fighters, the bullsh1t ends.

And what makes a good BJJ/MMA school? Competition, not all people need to compete but all students wishing to get better need to train at a school that competes or with a coach that has competed.

someone can think they are training athletically and soundly, and that they are teaching this to their students (they add boxing for example, they grapple, they spar MMA and so on) but if they and their students do not compete BS will still be there, the use of low percentage moves, bad escapes etc its competition that reinforces good basics and sound technique just sparring rolling with people worse than you does not do this.

Secrecy and BS is a major problem with TCMA, you may spot it a mile of but most do not (as witnessed by countless posts on this site) and where there is no open competition or a format to try out skills secrecy and BS factor will always be high

[Frost]

No, not that high, LOL
Kyokushin is still a "results oriented" MA, the problem is with the branches they focus solely on kyokushin competitions, some don't even hit to the face AT ALL in training.
Kyokushin, like many full contact MA, can be it's own worse enemy because it becomes narrow-minded.
Many Kyokushin guys saw that and branched out and we get SHIDOKAN, which is very good and Daidojuku which is great too, but the helmet is a bit disconcerning.

and thats my point, competition cuts down the BS and allows people to see through it to some extend, competing in MMA would be the best option, but if thats not realistic then some for of full contact rules that they will fight under is the next best option.

just going to an MMA gym and testing what you have learned is fine for an individual, but for a whole school or system its inefficent, you might waste years in a system before testing it out, far better to have some form of competition in place so new people coming into the art can see how good or bad schools are. and if thats not possible then find a teacher that has had sanctioned fights....or find another system that does endorse competing

[sanjuro_ronin]

MA systems LOSE more than they gain with the "closed door" and "secret" BS, history has shown us this.

[t_niehoff]

And what makes a good BJJ/MMA school? Competition, not all people need to compete but all students wishing to get better need to train at a school that competes or with a coach that has competed.


I see and understand your POV.

We can only know how good our training is from the results of that training (is it working, how well is it working, etc.). And - not to put words in your mouth - you seem to think that results in competition are the results that really matter. My view is that before we ever get to that stage, the results from our training -- our practice -- tells us. But to do so requires that we practice in a certain way (so that our training involves actually doing the target skill itself under the same conditions).



someone can think they are training athletically and soundly, and that they are teaching this to their students (they add boxing for example, they grapple, they spar MMA and so on) but if they and their students do not compete BS will still be there, the use of low percentage moves, bad escapes etc its competition that reinforces good basics and sound technique just sparring rolling with people worse than you does not do this.


Agreed. But what this stems from is not from a failure to compete but rather from not training with people much better than we are.

It's the same problem with going to compete with scrubs and leaving thinking you are good.

In both cases, whether you train (spar) or compete, it is by and through interaction with people much better than you are that you get better. This is just "you are only as good as your sparring partners." How do you know if they are much better than you? That's easy.



Secrecy and BS is a major problem with TCMA, you may spot it a mile of but most do not (as witnessed by countless posts on this site) and where there is no open competition or a format to try out skills secrecy and BS factor will always be high

The problem stems from being cloistered.

[m1k3]

T., I think what Frost is saying is that competition is the yardstick for picking your coach/school. Like you said training with people who are very good is what makes you better but as a noob how can you tell if his(the coach/school) is very good? Look at his and better yet the school's competition record.

Frost, if this isn't what you meant feel free to flame away.:D

[Frost]

T., I think what Frost is saying is that competition is the yardstick for picking your coach/school. Like you said training with people who are very good is what makes you better but as a noob how can you tell if his(the coach/school) is very good? Look at his and better yet the school's competition record.

Frost, if this isn't what you meant feel free to flame away.:D

nope nicely put and i don't flame much honest :) its not an individuals competition record but rather the schools, thats how a new person can best judge a school and that record only comes about from having a format that the school can compete in regularly.

i don't think T and i are that far apart in our thinking to be honest

[m1k3]

I didn't think you were that far apart either, but he seemed to be missing the point on why the school competing is so important.

[Frost]

I didn't think you were that far apart either, but he seemed to be missing this point.

true, i think it comes from all that argueing he does with the other wing chun guys, after a while you have trouble seeing the woods for the trees:)

[t_niehoff]

T., I think what Frost is saying is that competition is the yardstick for picking your coach/school. Like you said training with people who are very good is what makes you better but as a noob how can you tell if his(the coach/school) is very good? Look at his and better yet the school's competition record.

Frost, if this isn't what you meant feel free to flame away.:D

I understand that.

Look, it's the same with any sport. If you are a beginner at tennis or golf or swimming or surfing, do you need a seasoned competitive pro to learn from? Sure, that would be great. But you don't need it in the beginning.

What you do need -- if you are genuinely interested in getting better-- is to continually seek out people who are better than you to train with. Is competition a good yardstick for that? Sure, it can be.

[Frost]

I understand that.

Look, it's the same with any sport. If you are a beginner at tennis or golf or swimming or surfing, do you need a seasoned competitive pro to learn from? Sure, that would be great. But you don't need it in the beginning.

What you do need -- if you are genuinely interested in getting better-- is to continually seek out people who are better than you to train with. Is competition a good yardstick for that? Sure, it can be.

Fair enough but you need to learn from someone who knows what they are doing correct? in tennis and golf coaches are accreidted and sanctioned by governing bodies.... in a sport that does not have such a governing body or scheme how to you find a coach that you know knows what he is talking about?

[t_niehoff]

nope nicely put and i don't flame much honest :) its not an individuals competition record but rather the schools, thats how a new person can best judge a school and that record only comes about from having a format that the school can compete in regularly.

i don't think T and i are that far apart in our thinking to be honest

I don't think so either.

The trouble is when you start saying competition alone is the answer is that then you get the guys who compete in scrub events (the 70's full-contact karate theater people, for example) saying "see, we compete!" And, they're doing nonsense. So there is more to it than competition.

It's not just the competition, but WHO you compete with -- in other words, the skill of the people you compete against that matters.

Similarly, it is not just that you spar, but WHO you spar with that matters.

That aspect of the equation is critical IMO.

[Vajramusti]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

((So what-it ain't really a functional family))



Let's take the Yip Man lineage for example. As great a martial artist as he probably was - he only taught people bits-and-pieces of the art, and most of the instruction in his school was left to whatever senior students were in attendance at any given point in time.

And we all know by now that behind-closed-doors he was said to have taught this to that person...the next guy maybe something else, a third guy got pieces the first two didn't get, and so on.

((Apparently true- so what?))



And from the point of view of the instructor who engaged in this kind of teaching - this was somehow seen as a way to "protect the rice bowl" - as the saying used to go. (Keep the students coming back to fill your rice bowl with more).

((So what- even monasteries have to have donations))

What a mess! :cool:

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

((Fix? Who is the fixer? There ain't any grandmaster!! There is much less wing chun probably than what there appears to be. So what? Most folks probably should do MMA in some form.
So what? Why call most stuff wing chun? Amusing though that a wing chun chat forum outdraws other forums and non wing chun folks end up in it!!Same as in many other areas of serious learning-get a good teacher- practice well-experiment and explore and turn off the tube!!))Joy Chaudhuri

[m1k3]

T., Frost and I agree with you. In hostile territory you shouldn't shoot your allies. :D

[t_niehoff]

Fair enough but you need to learn from someone who knows what they are doing correct? in tennis and golf coaches are accreidted and sanctioned by governing bodies.... in a sport that does not have such a governing body or scheme how to you find a coach that you know knows what he is talking about?

Learning something and getting better at it are two different things.

Lots of people learn all kinds of sports from dads, other kids, etc. Did you need an ex big-leaguer to teach you the fundamentals of baseball? Or, could your dad teach you?

To learn a skill we just need someone who knows that skill to show us. Than we get better through practicing that skill. What we need is LEVEL APPROPRIATE instruction/coaching. Your dad may be fine at the beginning (that level) but not good enough to help you further along. LEVEL APPROPRIATE is the key.

One of the problems in TCMA is that most of the people have a very low level of real skill (fighting skill) -- and that would be fine if, like the dad, they acknowledged this -- yet believe they have high level skills and understanding, and convince their cloistered followers to listen only to them. Can you learn golf from a bad golfer? Sure. But you won't become a good golfer following the advice of a bad golfer.

When that skill involves defeating another person, we develop that skill by practicing defeating other persons -- so we need to seek out better and better people to practice doing that against.

So, to get better, you have to continually seek out people better than ourselves (you are only as good as your sparring partners).

[t_niehoff]

T., Frost and I agree with you. In hostile territory you shouldn't shoot your allies. :D

I think we agree generally but are more explaining our slight differences of opinion.

[Lee Chiang Po]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

And I believe it's the ultra secretive nature of the art historically - combined with giant egos...

that has made the art - as a whole - suffer.

Let's take the Yip Man lineage for example. As great a martial artist as he probably was - he only taught people bits-and-pieces of the art, and most of the instruction in his school was left to whatever senior students were in attendance at any given point in time.

And we all know by now that behind-closed-doors he was said to have taught this to that person...the next guy maybe something else, a third guy got pieces the first two didn't get, and so on.

And then everybody scrambled in some way or another to see what they had, what the other guy had, what they missed, what could they learn to surpass the guy standing next to them, and on, and on.

And from the point of view of the instructor who engaged in this kind of teaching - this was somehow seen as a way to "protect the rice bowl" - as the saying used to go. (Keep the students coming back to fill your rice bowl with more).

And very similar things have gone on, it would seem, in other wing chun lineages.

Secrecy + Giant egos = Problems.

What a mess! :cool:

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

Everyone seems to think cross training is the answer, but this has nothing to do with any of that. It has to do with the quality of teaching, not fighting skills. No matter how good or bad you might be, if you can not teach, you just can not teach. Ip Man was in that catagory. And btw, don't let that movie fool you, he was not that good. No one is or was.
Most people that would teach tend to start at different places in the training rather than at the extreme beginning. A person has to understand exactly what it is that he is doing to actually learn it. Moving about from one thing to the next, skipping over stuff, and not fully explaining something to a persons fullest understanding is why one person can have students that vary so greatly in their own teachings and skill levels. This is why schools of education use books, chapter by chapter. If it were left to the teacher alone, they would be all over the place in their mathmatical abilities or whatever they were trying to learn. This happens to a greater extent when a person opens a school or kwoon and takes on a lot of students. People come and they go. And on average they might have several older students teaching them. A new person comes in, and where does he get placed? Probably right into the mix, so you know he is going to miss something. Wing Chun is said to now be the most popular form of Kung Fu. True or not I have no idea. But I do know that the commercialization of Wing Chun is what has made it this way. Just look at the people on this forum. It is a Wing Chun forum, yet you will seldom find 2 people that can agree on anything Wing Chun. Not even the proper spelling of it. This is likely because people have to fill in the blanks with what they personally like or feel needs to be there, right or wrong.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe that having something along the lines of a "Wing Chun Fight League" would be a very good idea.

It could go a long way towards resolving the secrecy issue, as some have already pointed out on this thread - since the "super-duper secret techniques" from school (or lineage) X might turn out to be not so super-duper...

at which point nobody will care about their "secrets".

BUT...I only see that as a stepping stone towards bigger and better things. AN IMPORTANT STEPPING STONE - but just a stepping stone.

Entering comps that includes NON wing chun striking/kicking stylists should also be on the agenda...

and then mma-type comps against people who might also seek to take you to the ground and keep you there looking for a submission or a GnP.

Yes, that's a good formula imo to get rid of secrecy and weed out (by exposing) a lot of bull5hit wing chun schools and instructors.

But James hit on a good point concerning the ego thing. Getting a good thrashing (and perhaps more than once) can clearly be an ego reducer - and could therefore ultimately be a good thing for the person who learns from it.

But the old ways of having respect for your opponents, whether you win or lose - and especially if you win - seems to have been lost down through the decades, for the most part.

Imo, one of the biggest drawbacks concerning many mma people and mma comps today that really sucks is the GIANT EGO'S that seem to come out of them. And all the trash-talking. And it happens very often.

This kind of thing really needs to be held in check: regardless of what style, school, lineage, instructor, master, grandmaster, or whatever.

[m1k3]

Victor, there are a lot of egos at the very top levels of MMA but at least they can walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Also a lot of the trash talk is part of the show. Remember the fighter's job is to also to sell tickets.

I have trained as several MMA schools and have never run into the ego issue at any of the schools I have trained at.

[FongSung]

Secrets and Ego?
Here in SEA my sifu has always said there are no secrets it's all in the form it's up to me to use my own brain to work it out, practise, test and make it your own.
Practise practise pratise is the only secret. :-)

[chusauli]

Victor,

You have a great point - about secrecy. I'd like to bring something up related to this secrecy - and its a pseudo "Kung Fu Culture" which is anachronistic, and even cultish or sect-istic. Its rarely done in HK any more and in China, it was banned. Taiwan has little tolerance for it, too.

A lot of the old culture is dying out with the secrecy. And going overboard with the Jiang Hu or Kung Fu Life thing is something that is taken way too seriously. We live in the 21st century, not Qing Dynasty China.

We are not part of the secret underground Hung Mun to overthrow the hated Manchus...nor is it an us vs. them mentality in which we must save our secrets, due to interschool rivalry. This is largely portrayed in the pulp fictions of Chinese Book stalls, or in the Chinese Kung Fu theatre.

Here on this forum, we can shoot the breeze and can talk straightforward, with few titles and "exhalted Maha guru status claims".

We're here because we practice WCK and love it...but let's not let this go overboard. We're still decent people who work, serve the community, raise families, pay taxes, and have fun.

I hope my message here is clear.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sounds Like a good message, Robert.

[anerlich]

Good post, Robert.

[FongSung]

Ali, Tyson, Haggler, Rocky ;-) all box differently and had the same tools but different mentality, body size and character but we still called it Boxing. Whats the big deal about Wing Chun with all this talk about secrets and whether is modified or pure etc. Even IP man allowed changes to be made to forms etc Masters WSL, TST & Chung all differnet sizes and character so their wing chun is different but suits them.

What's the problem... If it works for you OK. Some players are direct some are in-direct (Straight down the centre or flanking) WC has both methods, whats the issue if you focus prefer one or the other? How can Master Hawkins Chueng fight like Master W. Chung like but they had the same sifu ha ha. Hendrink has found his way and T has found his good for them, ha ha.

We all have our preferences and there for differences this is life is it not.

Maybe it's the common enemy "ego". ;)

[WCFighter]

What sihing said:

"I agree, that testing your training is a good thing, but to say that it keeps the ego in check, well maybe in regards to the people that are kicking your ass it does, but overall no it doesn't, which is clearly evident by the constant posting by people not even training in WC that post here constantly trying to change our mindset about what we are doing, lol...Testing does one thing, it reveals to the individual what he/she needs to work on or what is good within their skill set.

The biggest problem in Wing Chun today is too much thinking, too much posting and too much comparison to other arts. Just train, spar, realize/actualize all of it, contimplate the results to yourself and your coach/sifu, repeat repeat repeat up until you are personally satisfied with your skills, without the need or desire to compare it to what you see on youtube or spike tv...


James "


Word!
True Dat!

I couldn't have said it better myself!

[Pacman]

That is one way to attempt to tackle the secrecy issue, but the giant ego thing is something else.

the secrecy issue is huge. fortunately for those with the skills and unfortunately for those who wish to gain those skills it is a part of TCM and Chinese culture in general Business men, chefs...even doctors keep their secrets to protect themselves or to keep an advantage.

the larger problem is people who have incomplete knowledge claiming that they are WC masters and teaching

in the old days they would have been called out and challenged. sifus are just teachers who run a business after all and so capitalism and open markets solved the issue.

nowadays we dont have open challenges. sifus are essentially government workers--people with jobs who can't get fired. competition via tournaments is the only way to bring back the open market and to weed out those with incomplete skills.

the secrecy issue is a big thing though. yuen kay san had only one student, sum nung, who he gained when he was already very old. if yuen kay san got hit but a bus before he taught sum nung, the knowledge would have been lost.

[duende]

Let me tell you all about what Kung Fu Culture means to me...

It means being respectful of your elders.

It means honoring those who have graciously shared their knowledge with you.

It means having respect for your fellow practitioners because YOU KNOW how hard it is to improve one's self and one's skill.

It's about EARNING your own respect and EARNING knowledge through hard work so that you can truly appreciate higher levels of understanding both mentally and physically.

It's about learning to distinguish where the real battles in life are, and knowing how to control one's own energy in all area's of life.


That's some of what Kung Fu Culture means to me anyways...

Obviously the Experts here have some other view.




Is it Hung Mun gang activity to simply want acknowledgment and respect for information shared? Any modern author has to cite their sources. Are they hung mun too?

Is it anachronistic to have disdain for rumor mills and gossip queens? Or is that simply having mutual respect for your fellow hard workers?

Heck, we all know what little copy rights hold in China these days. With rampant CD/DVD media and software piracy.

If you ask me, there are many activities in China that are in desperate need of Kung Fu Culture!






The real problem with WC if you as me. Is that it's full of egos and self illusions of grandeur. And it's an embarrassment.

Just look at this board.

You got Terence and Victor in a never ending pi$$y-fit.

You got Knifefighter always bopping in here like some socially retarded bully, who hates us, but has to come here for lack of friends anywhere else.

You got Hendrik, acting like a pretentious Kung Fu water-bender, who can't handle direct interaction... and always has to put others down to promote his supposedly enlightened chan ways...

Then you have the so called WC experts... Always spewing out BS to make peoples head spin, just so that they can take credit for re-inventing the farking wheel!




No secrecy is not a problem. Real men earn their respect and earn their knowledge through hard work and putting time in. Real men don't make silly demands for knowledge that they are not yet capable of fully understand or appreciating to begin with.

The problem with WC is, that it's people simply have to GROW THE FARK UP!

[Ultimatewingchun]

I personally don't really have a problem with basically anything you just wrote, duende.

But I would add this about what you didn't say:

In addition to the giant ego problem stuff you pointed out - secrecy in wing chun has been an enormous problem.

Enormous out-of-control egos...and Enormous amounts of out-of-control secrecy.

It's both.

[mjw]

I'd imagine that yip man taught different parts to help develop certain peoples weak points etc but who knows.....

[Niersun]

One problem that i found is that even though you learn all the forms and sets, your sifu wont reveal all the techniques he knows.

There are so many arm manipulation maneuvers and takedowns from Wing Chun blocks its not funny.

Im unsure whether this is just Chi-Na or apart of Wing Chun, but you wont learn it via the curriculum. In most curriculums, you will learn just to strike and not put your opponent in locks and there will be 5-6 takedowns. But in these locks you can still take your opponent down and strike.

Couple of years ago i was doing a demo at a shopping centre with GM and he put me through a **** load of locks. These locks are universal as i have found out, but they should be taught as curriculum. Maybe you have to get a red sash before its taught???

[YungChun]

Yeah not enough of those locking moves taught which aren't actually part of the curriculum in the first place.. :rolleyes: :o

Here's a newsflash for those visiting us from parallel worlds...

Yip Man was an unwilling teacher.


He taught because he had to..

He was also smart and saw where the whole CMA thing was going: Commercial.

Anyone who thinks he had any intention of mass popularizing (world wide) his most prized personal possession just doesn't get it.

It's like when you asked your smart azzed uncle to play cards with you when you were a kid.. He says he'll teach you a new game, and you say, great!

He then proceeds to fan the entire deck into the air---and tells you it's called 52 card pick up...:D

It's up to the intelligent student to put it together, Yip left enough clues for some folks to get a chunk.. But mileage will vary.

[namron]

One problem that i found is that even though you learn all the forms and sets, your sifu wont reveal all the techniques he knows.

There are so many arm manipulation maneuvers and takedowns from Wing Chun blocks its not funny.

Im unsure whether this is just Chi-Na or apart of Wing Chun, but you wont learn it via the curriculum. In most curriculums, you will learn just to strike and not put your opponent in locks and there will be 5-6 takedowns. But in these locks you can still take your opponent down and strike.

Couple of years ago i was doing a demo at a shopping centre with GM and he put me through a **** load of locks. These locks are universal as i have found out, but they should be taught as curriculum. Maybe you have to get a red sash before its taught???

Depends IMO, a lot of standing locks are like demos, flashy but hard to pull off against resisting opponents. Usually the smaller the joint manipulation the lower the % (again IMO and opinions vary, esp here on this forum :D). Its a bit like fine motor skills versus gross motor skills under pressure.

Having said all that and having 'shopped around' other styles somewhat, one begins to get an overall appreciation of body mechanics the longer one trains and teaches (what bends, what breaks). I think a lot can be said for this and basic experimentation.

[Frost]

Yeah not enough of those locking moves taught which aren't actually part of the curriculum in the first place.. :rolleyes: :o

Here's a newsflash for those visiting us from parallel worlds...

Yip Man was an unwilling teacher.


He taught because he had to..

He was also smart and saw where the whole CMA thing was going: Commercial.

Anyone who thinks he had any intention of mass popularizing (world wide) his most prized personal possession just doesn't get it.

It's like when you asked your smart azzed uncle to play cards with you when you were a kid.. He says he'll teach you a new game, and you say, great!

He then proceeds to fan the entire deck into the air---and tells you it's called 52 card pick up...:D

It's up to the intelligent student to put it together, Yip left enough clues for some folks to get a chunk.. But mileage will vary.

if thats the case why bother learning it and trying to piece it all together if at the end you don't even know if the goods will be worth it?

[SoCo KungFu]

This argument is a little pointless, don't you think? Why does it have to be an issue of one or the other? Its no coincidence that the schools that are heavy in producing competitors also will have the most efficient training methods and largest pool of skilled and enthusiastic sparring partners to train with. Whether you want to say its a cause and effect, or a mentality thing or whatever doesn't really matter. Find one and you'll more than likely find the other.

As for the rest of the people, I'm thinking most on these boards are a lost cause. Either people will wake up and realize what they don't have and seek it out, or they won't and hopefully they won't have to learn the hard way. Personally I think most people don't want the real thing, they just want to romanticize about all of it.

And as for secrecy, I honestly don't think there's a whole lot of "secrecy" not today. You see more the results of secrecy maybe from years past. Today, you see more of just a bunch of people that don't really know wtf they're doing. Because they were never taught and/or they never bothered to actually test their stuff to realize they were being shafted from the get-go.

[SoCo KungFu]

if thats the case why bother learning it and trying to piece it all together if at the end you don't even know if the goods will be worth it?

That's what I'm thinking. I don't really think it is. Of course everyone wants to say, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Baby done drowned yo...

How much do you got to jack up a cake before you just throw it out in the trash and start over from scratch?

[t_niehoff]

if thats the case why bother learning it and trying to piece it all together if at the end you don't even know if the goods will be worth it?

For me, I spent years learning it and practicing it, and it is like a puzzle -- I wanted to put it together for myself and make it functional. I had invested too much time and energy to just let it all go.

But I think that today, it is really counterproductive to learn karate or kung fu if your objective is to develop some decent fighting skills. Sure, you may be able through extreme efforts -- and that is what it takes -- to make it functional, but you are starting with some very serious handicaps. These styles in my view are, quite properly, on the way out. Except for some historical reasons (to preserve the past), there is no sound reason to study these things anymore.

[Frost]

That's what I'm thinking. I don't really think it is. Of course everyone wants to say, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater." Baby done drowned yo...

How much do you got to jack up a cake before you just throw it out in the trash and start over from scratch?

I agree these days it’s so easy to find a club that produces good fighters and keeps nothing back from its students, why bother learning something that might work if you really really research it, train with various different teachers who learned differently from Yip man depending on the year they started training, how long they trained and what he was taking at the time

and at the end if you manage to do all that and find the gold at the end of the rainbow what have you got.... a system that is so much better than what everyone else is training....not from the evidence from his senior guys the few everyone agree got something special (WSL William Cheung etc ) they were good fighters but they and their guys didn’t dominate in full contact environments but they did respectably. But is being respectable enough if you have to put all that effort in?

[Frost]

For me, I spent years learning it and practicing it, and it is like a puzzle -- I wanted to put it together for myself and make it functional. I had invested too much time and energy to just let it all go.

But I think that today, it is really counterproductive to learn karate or kung fu if your objective is to develop some decent fighting skills. Sure, you may be able through extreme efforts -- and that is what it takes -- to make it functional, but you are starting with some very serious handicaps. These styles in my view are, quite properly, on the way out. Except for some historical reasons (to preserve the past), there is no sound reason to study these things anymore.

i understand this, which is why I argued that a new person needs a coach who has fought/competed otherwise you might end up in this position, having invested so much time and effort you don't feel able to just drop it, you have trained in something that doesn't work that well and needs constant adjustment for so long you can't let it go.

its not the students fault he has put his time and trust in a person that simply can't teach him what he wants...maybe through no fault of his own

[t_niehoff]

i understand this, which is why I argued that a new person needs a coach who has fought/competed otherwise you might end up in this position, having invested so much time and effort you don't feel able to just drop it, you have trained in something that doesn't work that well and needs constant adjustment for so long you can't let it go.

its not the students fault he has put his time and trust in a person that simply can't teach him what he wants...maybe through no fault of his own

I think many, if not most, people teaching WCK are actually doing a huge disservice to their students. They're actually making them worse fighters, not better fighters. Most people in WCK are in my view training to fail.

As I see it, like all TMAs, WCK has two parts -- the curriculum and applying that curriculum (fighting). The way TCMAs, including WCK, is classically taught, the two are divorced. You learn and practice the curriculum, the forms, drills, dummy, etc. But learning the curriculum won't teach you how to effectively use it.

Serious problems arise when people don't appreciate that distinction. And, when they listen to people with little to no real (fighting) skill, whether their sifu or grandmaster, tell them how they should do things. This is the blind leading the blind. And that is training to fail.

My view is that you can't teach application if you aren't already successfully and consistently doing it in quality sparring. Application IS what you are doing in sparring, not "examples" of how you think WCK should work. So, if you are not doing it in fighting, then just teach the curriculum and let your student/trainee go do the work (of learning how to use he curriculum) themselves -- get out of the way of their development.

[Dragonzbane76]

the problem with wing chun?

YOU GUYS B!TCH TO MUCH...END OF STORY.

[Ultimatewingchun]

One problem that i found is that even though you learn all the forms and sets, your sifu wont reveal all the techniques he knows.

There are so many arm manipulation maneuvers and takedowns from Wing Chun blocks its not funny.

Im unsure whether this is just Chi-Na or apart of Wing Chun, but you wont learn it via the curriculum. In most curriculums, you will learn just to strike and not put your opponent in locks and there will be 5-6 takedowns. But in these locks you can still take your opponent down and strike.

Couple of years ago i was doing a demo at a shopping centre with GM and he put me through a **** load of locks. These locks are universal as i have found out, but they should be taught as curriculum. Maybe you have to get a red sash before its taught???

***I assume you're talking about TWC, right? Well Niersun, Grandmaster Cheung has been teaching moves like you describe openly since day one of going very public and world-wide with TWC, ie.- back in the early 1980's.

So no, if you haven't seen the moves until recently it's not due to secrecy, per se...but probably because there's so much emphasis on striking within the art - and the chi-na moves are not as high percentage in effectiveness.

In short, a good number of the moves have always been taught openly through the years that a student is on the road to the Gold Sash - and long before getting a Red Sash.

[chusauli]

But I would add this about what you didn't say:

In addition to the giant ego problem stuff you pointed out - secrecy in wing chun has been an enormous problem.

Enormous out-of-control egos...and Enormous amounts of out-of-control secrecy.

It's both.

Beautiful!

And that is the root of karma.

What are the possible events that can follow out-of-control secrecy?

[taojkd]

Dogma.

No one is trying to evolve the system. No one is testing it. The curriculum is standardized. LT has his own (even trademarked/copywrited). Cheung has his own. Moy yat has his. WSL has his.

Other striking systems are already using some WC techniques into its practice.

Muay Thai has incorporated boxing punches/combos/defenses into their system.
I've even been shown some bridging techniques from a muay thai instrcutor with a WC/JKD background get into the clinch safer.

BJJ has incorporated more wrestling into their curriculum. Before it was either a judo throw or running/flailing at the guys legs for a double leg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Beautiful!

And that is the root of karma.

What are the possible events that can follow out-of-control secrecy?

Stagnation and eventually, death.

[taojkd]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
Beautiful!

And that is the root of karma.

What are the possible events that can follow out-of-control secrecy?
Stagnation and eventually, death.

But before that will come the commercialization phase. Merchandising, merchandising, where the real money from Wing Chun is made. Wing Chun the T-shirt. Wing Chun, the lunchbox. Wing Chun the coloring book...

[m1k3]

You forgot the Wing Chun action figures.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But before that will come the commercialization phase. Merchandising, merchandising, where the real money from Wing Chun is made. Wing Chun the T-shirt. Wing Chun, the lunchbox. Wing Chun the coloring book...

LOL !
They wish !
Even Mel Brooks wants nothing to do with WC !!

[YungChun]

Dogma.

No one is trying to evolve the system. No one is testing it. The curriculum is standardized. LT has his own (even trademarked/copywrited). Cheung has his own. Moy yat has his. WSL has his.


Yes and no..

Among my lineage folks are all over the map.. Some guys I have seen doing stuff that is totally not what I learned or have evolved myself..

In any group you will see lots of differences and in the end each person will have his own interpretation..

Some folks are very good, most are not..

Again I say if the art has any value or if any art does we will see it emerge in some form or another, even if by another name.

[YungChun]

You forgot the Wing Chun action figures.

I have all 108 of them!!!!! :D

[shawchemical]

For me, I spent years learning it and practicing it, and it is like a puzzle -- I wanted to put it together for myself and make it functional. I had invested too much time and energy to just let it all go.

But I think that today, it is really counterproductive to learn karate or kung fu if your objective is to develop some decent fighting skills. Sure, you may be able through extreme efforts -- and that is what it takes -- to make it functional, but you are starting with some very serious handicaps. These styles in my view are, quite properly, on the way out. Except for some historical reasons (to preserve the past), there is no sound reason to study these things anymore.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Fu/ckwit.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Originally Posted by t_niehoff
For me, I spent years learning it (wing chun) and practicing it, and it is like a puzzle -- I wanted to put it together for myself and make it functional. I had invested too much time and energy to just let it all go.

But I think that today, it is really counterproductive to learn karate or kung fu if your objective is to develop some decent fighting skills. Sure, you may be able through extreme efforts -- and that is what it takes -- to make it functional, but you are starting with some very serious handicaps. These styles in my view are, quite properly, on the way out. Except for some historical reasons (to preserve the past), there is no sound reason to study these things anymore."
................................

***LET'S translate this into English, shall we?

What he's really saying is this:

"Even though as recently as a year ago I said on this forum that yes, I'm a cross-trainer, but nonetheless 'wing chun is my primary art'....

I now realize that those 20+ plus years I spent in wing chun were a waste of my time, as I can't really make anything within wing chun work against a skilled, resisting opponent.

And the truth is, I'm lost - as what went on within another current thread over the last week or so has seriously exposed my grasping at straws to help me out of the deep water I've fallen into...

you know, like using tan sao to get out of a MT plum neck tie - like saying that elbow strikes are the primary weapon within wing chun - all of which is part of my ridiculous notion that wing chun is best characterized as 'attached fighting'.

God, I'm lost !!!"

[anerlich]

No one is trying to evolve the system. No one is testing it. The curriculum is standardized. LT has his own (even trademarked/copywrited). Cheung has his own. Moy yat has his. WSL has his.

I take your point, but OTOH many BJJ organisations (Machado, Roy Harris, Roy Dean,...) have set grading curricula as well and it doesn't seem to have hurt them.


But before that will come the commercialization phase. Merchandising, merchandising, where the real money from Wing Chun is made. Wing Chun the T-shirt. Wing Chun, the lunchbox. Wing Chun the coloring book...

I think that's come and gone. Probably early 80's, After Bruce Lee's death, "Kung Fu fighting", all that stuff.

Does anyone really think MMA is NOT commercialised beyond the wildest hopes of other MA's?

There are legit MMA action figures, for example ... http://www.mmaactionfigures.com/

If you think MMA is some sort of underground, "keep it real" sort of thing, I think not.

[k gledhill]

"Originally Posted by t_niehoff
For me, I spent years learning it (wing chun) and practicing it, and it is like a puzzle -- I wanted to put it together for myself and make it functional. I had invested too much time and energy to just let it all go.

But I think that today, it is really counterproductive to learn karate or kung fu if your objective is to develop some decent fighting skills. Sure, you may be able through extreme efforts -- and that is what it takes -- to make it functional, but you are starting with some very serious handicaps. These styles in my view are, quite properly, on the way out. Except for some historical reasons (to preserve the past), there is no sound reason to study these things anymore."

wow :D you are one bitter and twisted individual.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wait...Stop everything and hold the presses...

I just found out that wing chun has no secrets. I was wrong. Completely wrong...:eek:

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja0XpVZl7Xs&feature=player_embedded#!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=taojkd;1014277]Dogma.

No one is trying to evolve the system.

((Not true)

No one is testing it.

(not true))

The curriculum is standardized.

(not true. Easy to make broad generalizations such as taojkd's in a forum post))

Other striking systems are already using some WC techniques into its practice.

((So?))



joy chaudhuri

[Tom Kagan]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

LOL! Victor, you need to get out more. For instance: the squabbles within one martial art has reached the United States Supreme Court TWICE.

This is piddley ass bull****. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to make things better, but trying to change human nature is an exercise in futility. It's better to just let this aspect play out on its own within a context where such nature is either an asset or an entertaining sideshow.

[chusauli]

LOL! Victor, you need to get out more. For instance: the squabbles within one martial art has reached the United States Supreme Court TWICE.

This is piddley ass bull****. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to make things better, but trying to change human nature is an exercise in futility. It's better to just let this aspect play out on its own within a context where such nature is either an asset or an entertaining sideshow.

Tom,

Which martial art is that?

I remember an incident in NYC involving 2 large WCK groups. I don't think it made it that far...

[t_niehoff]

"Originally Posted by t_niehoff
For me, I spent years learning it (wing chun) and practicing it, and it is like a puzzle -- I wanted to put it together for myself and make it functional. I had invested too much time and energy to just let it all go.

But I think that today, it is really counterproductive to learn karate or kung fu if your objective is to develop some decent fighting skills. Sure, you may be able through extreme efforts -- and that is what it takes -- to make it functional, but you are starting with some very serious handicaps. These styles in my view are, quite properly, on the way out. Except for some historical reasons (to preserve the past), there is no sound reason to study these things anymore."

wow :D you are one bitter and twisted individual.

Why is it "bitter and twisted" to see that there have been advances in fighting and in training that make many of the things that people did in the past not very relevant?

A person could go and learn a traditional Japanese jiujitsu art but other than to preserve that art, why would you do it? Certainly not to develop any serious grappling skills. Judo, BJJ, etc. have made those arts irrelevant.

[YungChun]

Wait...Stop everything and hold the presses...

I just found out that wing chun has no secrets. I was wrong. Completely wrong...:eek:

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja0XpVZl7Xs&feature=player_embedded#!

I guess certain things should remain secrets... :)

Secrets are relative.. If I decide not to teach someone something is it then "a secret"?

[Hendrik]

Secrets and Ego?
Here in SEA my sifu has always said there are no secrets it's all in the form it's up to me to use my own brain to work it out, practise, test and make it your own.
Practise practise pratise is the only secret. :-)


Who is your sifu?

[Tom Kagan]

Tom,

Which martial art is that?

Judo. Heck, they are probably headed for yet another dust up, considering what's going on within the USJA.


I remember an incident in NYC involving 2 large WCK groups. I don't think it made it that far...

Victor is well aware of the details.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It didn't go to the Supreme Court, Tom...

It went to criminal court in Manhattan, and eventually all charges were dropped since the plaintiff kept on being a no-show after the first court date.

Now listen, I know that a person who's last name is Kagan is being considered for the Supreme Court...

but let's not get carried away, okay?! :)


.....It seems that Tom has the Supreme Court on his mind...:cool:

[chusauli]

Glad in the end, it all worked out.

Better not to have legal problems because of WCK politics.

[Tom Kagan]

It didn't go to the Supreme Court, Tom...

It went to criminal court in Manhattan, and eventually all charges were dropped since the plaintiff kept on being a no-show after the first court date.

Now listen, I know that a person who's last name is Kagan is being considered for the Supreme Court...

but let's not get carried away, okay?! :)


.....It seems that Tom has the Supreme Court on his mind...:cool:

There were two different questions - one answer about big league squabbles, one answer about bush league squabbles.

[taojkd]

Dogma.


[QUOTE]No one is trying to evolve the system.

((Not true)


No one is testing it.


(not true))
Who? Where?


The curriculum is standardized.

(not true. Easy to make broad generalizations such as taojkd's in a forum post))

Yes. There is a belted (sashed) level of progression. SNT techniques, then CK, then BT (which is guarded in some organizations as being too deadly to teach openly i.e. LT's) then the dummy form and lastly the weapons form. There are hook punches in BT which many dont learn until you get to BT there are kicks in Dummy form which you dont get to learn until dummy form etc. Agreed that not ALL teachers are like this but the majority of the schools (especially organizations TWC, WT, WTzun etc) do for the purposes of enrollment :)

Muay Thai there is no "standardized curriculum". They teach you how to put power in all strikes. Some basic combination's. Then spar. If you can make it work, then its Muay Thai. You find the techniques that work for you through scientific method (research, hypothesize, TEST, Analyze - REPEAT)



Other striking systems are already using some WC techniques into its practice.

Soo
Why bother with the drama if you can find a good gym (mma, boxing, shootfighting, san shou etc) that have already cut through the red tape to learn the techniques that work for you?

[chusauli]

From being on this forum, I think the biggest problem with WCK is people can't see past their own experience and think they are doing the only "right" way.

A lot of this stuff is in people's heads.

And I am not exempt from this.

So human nature is the fault of WCK.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From being on this forum, I think the biggest problem with WCK is people can't see past their own experience and think they are doing the only "right" way.

A lot of this stuff is in people's heads.

And I am not exempt from this.

So human nature is the fault of WCK.

"religious MA zealots", or "atheistic sport fighters" take your pick, LOL !

[Dragonzbane76]

pikachu, I CHOOSE YOU.

[Wayfaring]

Now listen, I know that a person who's last name is Kagan is being considered for the Supreme Court...

but let's not get carried away, okay?! :)


Now what activity of Kagan's besides his moderating on Bullshido has the potential to accomplish this?

[sanjuro_ronin]

pikachu, I CHOOSE YOU.

You American kids...
http://img.moronail.net/img/6/4/1364.jpg

[chusauli]

I have got to go to Brazil!

What the heck are they doing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have got to go to Brazil!

What the heck are they doing?

Just kids having fun :D

[Dragonzbane76]

them kids do look like they are having an great time.....can't blame them though.

[Dragonzbane76]

brazil is also notorius for another phenonmenon.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0805/trannies-transsexual-demotivational-poster-1212048525.jpg

[shawchemical]

I think many, if not most, people teaching WCK are actually doing a huge disservice to their students. They're actually making them worse fighters, not better fighters. Most people in WCK are in my view training to fail.

As I see it, like all TMAs, WCK has two parts -- the curriculum and applying that curriculum (fighting). The way TCMAs, including WCK, is classically taught, the two are divorced. You learn and practice the curriculum, the forms, drills, dummy, etc. But learning the curriculum won't teach you how to effectively use it.

Serious problems arise when people don't appreciate that distinction. And, when they listen to people with little to no real (fighting) skill, whether their sifu or grandmaster, tell them how they should do things. This is the blind leading the blind. And that is training to fail.

My view is that you can't teach application if you aren't already successfully and consistently doing it in quality sparring. Application IS what you are doing in sparring, not "examples" of how you think WCK should work. So, if you are not doing it in fighting, then just teach the curriculum and let your student/trainee go do the work (of learning how to use he curriculum) themselves -- get out of the way of their development.

How woudl you know??

You don't even know what quality is, let alone what people are actually doing.

You're a little too much in love with your own ability to run an argument that you don't seem to be able to see where you fudge lines to make ad hominem attacks, or where you just make blanket generalisations and think that that is enough to convince people.

people like you make me glad that I dropped my law degree when I did.

[Tom Kagan]

... you don't seem to be able to see where you fudge lines to make ad hominem attacks ...

I love irony.

[shawchemical]

I love irony.

I call it how it is. If you feel that the comments are unjustified, please find me in contradiction with a previously held position, to which I reply to the person informing me of such a contradiction with personal attacks.

I make no apologies for calling bull**** when I smell it, and T and Knife fighter dribble it more than most.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Many wing chun people have neglected body strengthening, conditioning, stretching, and cardio exercises. There's been a long history of this - with some notable exceptions.

And with that it mind, I'd like to share an absolutely amazing body weight exercise vid I just came across. Karl Gotch himself would have been proud of this !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfsTKfUT-RQ

[shawchemical]

Many wing chun people have neglected body strengthening, conditioning, stretching, and cardio exercises. There's been a long history of this - with some notable exceptions.

And with that it mind, I'd like to share an absolutely amazing body weight exercise vid I just came across. Karl Gotch himself would have been proud of this !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfsTKfUT-RQ

Vic, that guy is utterly amazing.

Pretty sure the Olympic Gymnasts would be proud of that sort of core strength, balance and flexibility.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'll tell ya, shaw...I'm gonna try some of his stuff on my chin up bar...I hope my arms don't fall off. LOL :cool:

[duende]

Vic, that guy is utterly amazing.

Pretty sure the Olympic Gymnasts would be proud of that sort of core strength, balance and flexibility.

Yeah, but what's up with those chicken legs? ;) :D

I'm sure he wouldn't want to be kicked down there. :eek:

Just kidding really... that guy is definitely impressive!

[shawchemical]

I'll tell ya, shaw...I'm gonna try some of his stuff on my chin up bar...I hope my arms don't fall off. LOL :cool:

I've seen smallish rock climbers do that before, but noone that big.

granted, he may be smaller than he appears if it is a children's playground, but that doens't take anything away from his power 2 weight ratio.

Not sure what you guys are talking about regarding his legs, did you see the size of his thighs under his shorts??

At least he doesn't have cankles.