Body structure time to go to another level

[Hendrik]

Structure is a dynamic thing; not a dead, static, stand there thing.

The surfboard analogy was more like it. You are keeping your balance and your control of the opponent's balance.


Yup. and most still stay at the static posture level.

and your so called structure test if it is perform similar to the Chinese Street performers show those are just mechanics tricks. how the heck is this type of stuffs could be use in dynamic situation?

I wonder if anyone asking themself, why is their so called structure doesnt natually work in real life dynamic situation.


In general, most will kick like Karate or Box like boxing while train their structure in YJYKM and thinking they have the structure but they dont have it.


Why? because their structure doesnt have the signature of Comes accept Goes return....etc.


But obviously most will say " I have it tooo" disregards of knowing what is what.

[Hendrik]

In additional,

Some structure in different style has things such as Bai Jong, and facing....etc.

For me, WCK doenst have those because it is just flow. There is no reset in flow. No Bai Jong is needed, no facing is needed. It just comes accept, goes return.....

For me, only with flow type of structure one could be parr with the following situation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtqQxF4qb7c&feature=related

See, Oyama didnt reset or make a post ...etc. it just flow. . Simple and effective. not artificial posting . no sanchin stance . no all the man made move.... it just flow with the situation.

look at 0.1/0.2 that is just comes accept goes return... in his own expresssion. well, those are the so called open door methods and lin sil dai ta...etc martial art is martial art, in advance level it is just flow and defeat one at the contact instant.


reality is certainly not the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ramwk_AkhgA

why? one will never uses such stuffs in the real life.

.43/2.36 is called chasing the hand. and infact most of the clip is chasing hand
IT fills with moves, it emphasis in move or Jiu Shek but it doesnt have the dynamic structure of WCK which has the signature of comes accept, goes return....etc.

[YungChun]

You had me (well mostly) right up until this...



no facing is needed.


While I agree that one may not always be facing, but inside--close range facing in and of itself I have always found to be a KEY VT attribute..

Facing and following facilitates recovery, opens up attacking options and helps maintain the attack timing and superior tactical positioning---a dynamic that I have found translates to motions and actions that even go beyond the VT toolbox..

[Hendrik]

You had me (well mostly) right up until this...



While I agree that one may not always be facing, but inside--close range facing in and of itself I have always found to be a KEY VT attribute..

Facing and following facilitates recovery, opens up attacking options and helps maintain the attack timing and superior tactical positioning---a dynamic that I have found translates to motions and actions that even go beyond the VT toolbox..

You have good reason, however, IMHO that is only good in mind. and real life action is by passing mind.

look at the Oyama clip. what one is facing in real life which one needs to penetrate any "hole" as soon as the hole surface. thus what is not facing? and there is no need for a artifac facing.


and so what is the dynamic structrure which capable to support one to act?

[YungChun]

You have good reason, however, IMHO that is only good in mind. and real life action is by passing mind.


Real life means taking good position...staying with the change...maintaining or trying to maintain a superior position and certainly avoiding inferior position.. Whatever that means in the moment. You can't mentally minimize the import of positioning..



look at the Oyama clip. what one is facing in real life which one needs to penetrate any "hole" as soon as the hole surface. thus what is not facing? and there is no need for a artifac facing.


Not a good example.. However I agree that you may not always need to face or be able to face in the moment..and then you need to be able to project power from any position, etc..

However facing, following, flanking, etc is generally superior to not doing these things, especially in close range connected fighting--failing to adapt and change with change can be hazardous to your health.

[JPinAZ]

Some structure in different style has things such as Bai Jong, and facing....etc.

For me, WCK doenst have those because it is just flow. There is no reset in flow. No Bai Jong is needed, no facing is needed. It just comes accept, goes return.....


haha, of course WCK for you doesn't have these things. Because for one, you don't fight or even spar with your wing chun, you only talk. If you did actually spar, you might understand wck isn't only about 'just flow' - it doesn't work that way. How'd that work for you in your encounter with Chi Sim? ;)
And for you, WCK doesn't have these things because WCK for you is a hodge podge mixture of snake, crane, ermei, and whatever tai chi you've been reading about lately while you're hooked up to your EKG machine.

And it's clear you don't have the first idea what Bai Jong or facing is even about. The first concept we learn in WC is Center Line. How can this even work in relation to your opponent without facing? So I'm guessing you'll be telling us you don't have CL theory in your wing chun either... :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Thanks for your view, however, I am not interested in wasting time on it.






haha, of course WCK for you doesn't have these things. Because for one, you don't fight or even spar with your wing chun, you only talk. If you did actually spar, you might understand wck isn't only about 'just flow' - it doesn't work that way. How'd that work for you in your encounter with Chi Sim? ;)


And for you, WCK doesn't have these things because WCK for you is a hodge podge mixture of snake, crane, ermei, and whatever tai chi you've been reading about lately while you're hooked up to your EKG machine.

And it's clear you don't have the first idea what Bai Jong or facing is even about. The first concept we learn in WC is Center Line. How can this even work in relation to your opponent without facing? So I'm guessing you'll be telling us you don't have CL theory in your wing chun either... :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

I wonder if anyone asking themself, why is their so called structure doesnt natually work in real life dynamic situation.

Because you have people trying to learn "structure" by doing unrealistic drills like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwaZxsYkEcU

When, in reality, effective structure looks more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shtzE6brI08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2oXxEOyUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXVLCW7PUvU&feature=related

[JPinAZ]

Thanks for your view, however, I am not interested in wasting time on it.

Yeah, funny, I talk about sparring and actual fighting with WC, and you aren't interested.
I talk about key WCK concepts and principles and you aren't interested.

Ok then, stay in your fantasy land..

[Hendrik]

Because you have people trying to learn "structure" by doing unrealistic drills like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwaZxsYkEcU

When, in reality, effective structure looks more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shtzE6brI08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2oXxEOyUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXVLCW7PUvU&feature=related



You are right if your preference style is as above.




On the other hand,
I can refer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3LUOYxI_FA

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RdICGgXcvc


as realistic and effective instead of the wrestling type and called the wrestling style as un realistics....etc. just because I dont understand what it is.


So, let's not get into making one's preference style as the reality or effective and put down others because it is not one's preference style.

[Hendrik]

again, I am not interested in your reasoning at all since you exhibit incapable to think properly and dont know the subject.




Yeah, funny, I talk about sparring and actual fighting with WC, and you aren't interested.
I talk about key WCK concepts and principles and you aren't interested.

Ok then, stay in your fantasy land..

[Knifefighter]

You are right if your preference style is as above.

On the other hand,
I can refer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3LUOYxI_FA

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RdICGgXcvc


as realistic and effective instead of the wrestling type and called the wrestling style as un realistics....etc. just because I dont understand what it is.


So, let's not get into making one's preference style as the reality or effective and put down others because it is not one's preference style.

Those are fine. They are also representational of functional "structures" Notice how different those are compared to the original, non-functional clip.

[duende]

In additional,

Some structure in different style has things such as Bai Jong, and facing....etc.

For me, WCK doenst have those because it is just flow. There is no reset in flow. No Bai Jong is needed, no facing is needed. It just comes accept, goes return.....


Hendricks,

have you been reading my posts again? Or are you bringing up Bai Jong and facing out of some bizarre coincidence.

Ying is the only the first energy. Structural energy.

It is not dead or lifeless. It is not merely a shape.

To think otherwise is low level understanding.

Ying is knowing yourself. As in without knowing yourself, one can not begin to know their opponent. Yes, it's an old saying we've all heard so many times. But one has to directly Face this truth just like all other truths and can not run away from it.

Just like in combat, if you flow all the time without any real guard or breaks to control (or directly face) the energy, then eventually someone is going to pop you like one big water balloon.

All your precious flow will have leaked out everywhere uselessly and you'll find your center has been nailed to the wall.

Just sayin... ;)

Lau is important, but it is not the end all.

[Hendrik]

You too, thanks but no thanks to your view. Keep it for yourself. Thanks.

Hendricks,

have you been reading my posts again? Or are you bringing up Bai Jong and facing out of some bizarre coincidence.

Ying is the only the first energy. Structural energy.

It is not dead or lifeless. It is not merely a shape.

To think otherwise is low level understanding.

Ying is knowing yourself. As in without knowing yourself, one can not begin to know their opponent. Yes, it's an old saying we've all heard so many times. But one has to directly Face this truth just like all other truths and can not run away from it.

Just like in combat, if you flow all the time without any real guard or breaks to control the energy, then eventually someone is going to pop you like one big water balloon.

All your precious flow will have leaked out everywhere uselessly and you'll find your center has been nailed to the wall.

Just sayin... ;)

Lau is important, but it is not the end all.

[duende]

You too, thanks but no thanks to your view. Keep it for yourself. Thanks.

This is a perfect example of what I'm saying.

You are running away from the discussion, just like you always do.

If you faced the reasons why so many people don't agree with you, then you wouldn't have to constantly repost so many redundant threads.

Fwiw... I accept dynamic flow and much of your reasonings behind it. What I don't accept is your incessant need to put down other concepts to promote your own.

[Hendrik]

I sure accept your view. Keep it for yourself. Thanks.



This is a perfect example of what I'm saying.

You are running away from the discussion, just like you always do.

If you faced the reasons why so many people don't agree with you, then you wouldn't have to constantly repost so many redundant threads.

Fwiw... I accept dynamic flow and much of your reasonings behind it. What I don't accept is your incessant need to put down other concepts to promote your own.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yup. and most still stay at the static posture level.

and your so called structure test if it is perform similar to the Chinese Street performers show those are just mechanics tricks. how the heck is this type of stuffs could be use in dynamic situation?

I wonder if anyone asking themself, why is their so called structure doesnt natually work in real life dynamic situation.


In general, most will kick like Karate or Box like boxing while train their structure in YJYKM and thinking they have the structure but they dont have it.


Why? because their structure doesnt have the signature of Comes accept Goes return....etc.


But obviously most will say " I have it tooo" disregards of knowing what is what.
I think that I agree with you guys.
Structure is a bad term. Usually when people talk about structure, they are referring to their fighting shell which should be an athletic position or series of athletic positions to allow one to attack and defend effectively. For some reason, as soon as the term structure is thrown out for use people start talking about their fighting shell like they are building a house or trying to resist some a crushing force. I am embarrassed for a lot of people when they discuss structure.

[Hendrik]

You hit the nail directly.

IMHO,

This so called "I have it too structure race" starts about 11 years ago when Robert Chu published his article on his structure test.

After that article every one knowing it or not get into the "I have it too mode" and things get spiral into confusion even thought everyone who claim " I have it too" doesnt realize what Robert really means. some even pull the stunt of claiming their structure is from ancient school...etc .

So blame on Robert on this totally screw up. :D hahahaha


IT has been almost a decade I told Robert an upgrade needs to be brought up because it is the dynamic structure which is the key and one could trace where these dynamic signature to its mother art. and most mistaken standing in a certain posture and how to pass the structure test...etc as the it. Nope it is not the it.


Like I told Jim Roselando that one dont stand in Zhan Zhuang to get advance power generation. One is using Zhan Zhuang and while at Zhan Zhuang to investigate and orbit in the energy level to get advance power generation. So, anyone who mimic Zhan Zhuang thinking they got it all is dreaming and never get there. Physical posture or shell is just not it.



I think that I agree with you guys.
Structure is a bad term. Usually when people talk about structure, they are referring to their fighting shell which should be an athletic position or series of athletic positions to allow one to attack and defend effectively. For some reason, as soon as the term structure is thrown out for use people start talking about their fighting shell like they are building a house or trying to resist some a crushing force. I am embarrassed for a lot of people when they discuss structure.

[HumbleWCGuy]

IT has been almost a decade I told Robert an upgrade needs to be brought up because it is the dynamic structure which is the key and one could trace where these dynamic signature to its mother art. and most mistaken standing in a certain posture and how to pass the structure test...etc as the it. Nope it is not the it.


Admittedly, I only started paying attention to other brands of WC a few years ago. The nonsensical talk surrounding structure and pressure as if they are static entities has given me pause. If Robert popularized the structure concept then he definitely needs to clarify his position because there are enough people who misunderstand.

[HumbleWCGuy]

haha, of course WCK for you doesn't have these things. Because for one, you don't fight or even spar with your wing chun, you only talk. If you did actually spar, you might understand wck isn't only about 'just flow' - it doesn't work that way. How'd that work for you in your encounter with Chi Sim? ;)
And for you, WCK doesn't have these things because WCK for you is a hodge podge mixture of snake, crane, ermei, and whatever tai chi you've been reading about lately while you're hooked up to your EKG machine.

And it's clear you don't have the first idea what Bai Jong or facing is even about. The first concept we learn in WC is Center Line. How can this even work in relation to your opponent without facing? So I'm guessing you'll be telling us you don't have CL theory in your wing chun either... :rolleyes:

Hendrik uses a lot of flowery language and training techniques. He is very internally focused at times, but I think that if you get to the heart of what he is saying you can find a lot of common ground. For example, concerning a bai jong or lack there of in Hendrik's case: Here is what happens when you start training a young fighter. You teach them an on-guard position. In my system we start teaching front body WC. After a few years we start teaching them side-body WC. Here they begin to learn about how varying degrees of being sideways affect their effectiveness with various techniques and how to use alternative hand postures to facilitate different strategies. A young fighter starts to learn but is usually stuck in that basic Bai Jong mold. Older fighters, 15+ years of experience rotate through bai jongs or shells making them hard to figure out. At that point, it could be said that these fighters have no on-guard correct? The best example of this currently is Anderson Silva. If you watch him fight he switches between MT and TKD shells and uses subtle variations within those arts to embarrass opponents. With Anderson's mental flexibility in the ring he could extend his career well past his physical prime.

I have no idea as to whether or not Hendrik is a great fighter but I can say with a degree of certainty that his understanding of WC is at a very high-level. His views should not be dismissed out of hand. Also, if you pay close attention, he will give you glimpses in to things that we should be striving for as we transition from a young to middle-aged to elder martial artists. That way you don't turn into bitter 50+ year old message board trolls like some on this forum :) .


I am not saying that I agree with everything that Hendrik says. For example, he doesn't buy into the notion of strategy. I believe that it is a necessary part of teaching a young fighter and getting them optimally prepared for situations where we can no something about their opponent. Strategy is a huge part of sport application. However, he has a point when it comes to street fighting, where you kind of just have to react because you don't have a tape to study on a mugger. Although, I believe there are some consistent truths about street fights that can be exploited.

Consider this though too. I have had probably 7-10 street fights and probably another 10-15 physical altercations. Out of all of that, I have spent about 5 seconds in a martial arts stance not counting the time when I subdued one guy and warded off his buddy by displaying my "stance." In a street altercation, you just can't tip your hand to the opponent. Jumping into a stance is they kind of thing that gets people shot. My instructor tells this story of a MAist who was arguing with a street fighter. The MAist jumps into a stance to kick the street fighter pulls a knife and sticks it in the MAists ankle. In a street fight, a bai jong is typically an after thought that is only considered after an opponent weathers your initial attack. I would be surprised if too many "street-minded" instructors are telling their students to hop into a stance at the first sign of trouble.

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
For me, WCK doenst have those because it is just flow. There is no reset in flow. No Bai Jong is needed, no facing is needed. It just comes accept, goes return.....
hendrik your inability to understand these things and your inexperience using these tools leaves you attempting to fill in gaps you are unqualified to answer. You don't seem to understand that when Bruce said then I learned that a punch is just a punch that required both understanding and experience both of which you have very little of.

When your structure was challenged by chi sim there was no flow, there was no balance and there were no answers. Your answers only come out on paper or on the computer. But there was no qi left in your red face when you lost your balance and flow to chi sim, because first there was no understanding nor enough experience of bai jong, duei ying, faat qing etc, which then leads to good loi lau hoi sung.

hendrik as you sat on the ground you were unable to demonstrate the beginning level of a white sash judo student or beginning level tai chi student and with statements such as the one above now whe know why. So it should not suprise anyone here that without this training and experience all anyone would get for their trouble with a chi sim guy or judo guy is a sore @ss and a red face just like yours as you were left shouting "that is not wing chun" as if you would know.

Your teaching Jim Rodelando may be considered the blind leading the blind as you get frustrated by his slow progress and he gets frustrated with your poor communication skills which in part may be due to your lack of understanding how wing chun works as demonstrated by your lack of understanding beginning tools such as bai jong. Right now all Jim may have learned from you is that a punch is just a punch and he may never reach the level of understanding that is required to understand that a punch is just a punch.

[SavvySavage]

Hendrik,

do you study in Honolulu, Hawaii? My friend went to a few wing chun classes and said they don't talk about strategy, don't do simultaneous attack and defend, don't do any drills with partners seperated such as I punch you and you defend. The ONLY thing they do is sensitivity drills like push hands. The teacher said he studied with Hawkins Cheung. These guys have any relation to you?

Honolulu sucks by the way in case anyone is wondering.

[Hendrik]

I am not saying that I agree with everything that Hendrik says. For example, he doesn't buy into the notion of strategy. I believe that it is a necessary part of teaching a young fighter and getting them optimally prepared for situations where we can no something about their opponent. Strategy is a huge part of sport application. However, he has a point when it comes to street fighting, where you kind of just have to react because you don't have a tape to study on a mugger. Although, I believe there are some consistent truths about street fights that can be exploited.

.



You have a great point. My not buying into the notion of strategy is because I dont want to lead anyone into tunnel vision or in a simple word, one sees what his strategy but missed the reality. That is a big problem in fight such as a street fight.

For me, the ultimate is Zen. meaning one no longer using the mind but bypassed it. Using mind with a strategy can get one run automatic and get blinded.

There is nothing wrong with strategy if one knows how to switch off from running automatic and blinded oneself.


Thus, with no strategy, there is no expectation of the situation, and there is no suprise to shock oneself. Thus, one just flow with it using WCK's Way or philosophy, " comes accept, goes return....etc" . That is Zen That is Dao.

and Fear comes from expectation which is shattered via shock. once one in that shock/fear state one is gone or the physical is totally disarm. That is the issue with strategy when the strategy is broken. No strategy, no predetermination, no expectation, nothing to be break and not shock/fear state.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

do you study in Honolulu, Hawaii? My friend went to a few wing chun classes and said they don't talk about strategy, don't do simultaneous attack and defend, don't do any drills with partners seperated such as I punch you and you defend. The ONLY thing they do is sensitivity drills like push hands. The teacher said he studied with Hawkins Cheung. These guys have any relation to you?

Honolulu sucks by the way in case anyone is wondering.


1. you dont understand me. You still have many journey to go through and more witches in the alice of wonder land to meet.

2, fighting is about random and broken rythm, no one can step into the same flowing water twice.

3, stuck in you thinking, your training and your strategy is only giving you lots of false security. it only take to shock you and lead you into the chill fear once and your opponent will disarm you totally including dissolve your confident all the way.

4, confident and courage is from letting go of everyting and accepting everything and anything without thinking and strategy. With a will, I will take you down. ofcause there are millions of drills and practice and ....etc action instead of fantasy with mind to support that state.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for your view again. I totally accept your view because you are who you are.
Not intended to change you or your logic. You like to use your mind to speculate that is fine with me.

Now, this will be my last response to you here because I am not interested in your speculation based on your logic for that is not a reality for me.





One note I would like you to know is.

You are putting words in Chi Sim's mouth and step on Jim without bases. Making up his-story about others....etc. How is this a behavior of Yee in Chinese? HOw is this accord to your Hung Fa Yee's Moduk and righteousness teaching?

Well, I leave that to Garret Gee. Since it is his responsible and not my issue on your Moduk and how you reflect Garret Gee's teaching of MoDuk.





hendrik your inability to understand these things and your inexperience using these tools leaves you attempting to fill in gaps you are unqualified to answer. You don't seem to understand that when Bruce said then I learned that a punch is just a punch that required both understanding and experience both of which you have very little of.

When your structure was challenged by chi sim there was no flow, there was no balance and there were no answers. Your answers only come out on paper or on the computer. But there was no qi left in your red face when you lost your balance and flow to chi sim, because first there was no understanding nor enough experience of bai jong, duei ying, faat qing etc, which then leads to good loi lau hoi sung.

hendrik as you sat on the ground you were unable to demonstrate the beginning level of a white sash judo student or beginning level tai chi student and with statements such as the one above now whe know why. So it should not suprise anyone here that without this training and experience all anyone would get for their trouble with a chi sim guy or judo guy is a sore @ss and a red face just like yours as you were left shouting "that is not wing chun" as if you would know.

Your teaching Jim Rodelando may be considered the blind leading the blind as you get frustrated by his slow progress and he gets frustrated with your poor communication skills which in part may be due to your lack of understanding how wing chun works as demonstrated by your lack of understanding beginning tools such as bai jong. Right now all Jim may have learned from you is that a punch is just a punch and he may never reach the level of understanding that is required to understand that a punch is just a punch.

[canglong]

hendrik you are without a doubt the only person on this forum that if given a koan from the Buddha would answer with your own amenable psycho babble. Most of the people here either speak from experience or share what it is they have been taught in their martial art studies. The principle employed in what they share is derived from the sincerity with which they share these things but not you your post are not sincere your arguments are not sincere and least of all your motives for being here are not sincere.

You have nothing to add about bai jong we can move onto moduk. Our HFY Grandmaster like many many professional teachers of martial arts is usually busy teaching, traveling, writing or practicing his arts again things you obviously know little about judging from your post. Again like many many others he is capable of walking the walk and talking the talk you yourself by your own admission claim not to even practice wing chun yet here you stay writing about it day and night. Generally speaking moduk is something taught in the home possibly enhanced on the mat but more a responsibility of the parents than a busy professional teacher. Fortunately we have more than enough of your post to judge the ability of Mr. & Mrs Santos Senior and their ability to impart moduk to you. hendrik does your sifu have a name? well that doesn't even matter because I am sure he too had many students yet your parents only had one child to teach. You hendrik are not doing your parents any favors with you frivolous personal attacks, your poor communication skills, your incessant rants, your insincerity and your unfiltered and endless portrail of your unpleasant traits over and over again on the same topics trying to continually feed off the new, the young and the ill informed. Typically we don't judge our own moduk we let others do that and I am perfectly happy to let mine stand next to yours.

[Hendrik]

Why WCK doesnt do Bai Jong or Kiu Sau stuffs?

In today's language, Chinese martial art emphasis strongly on Open the Door method or Hoi Muun Faat. It is from the Open the Door method one could see the signature of the art.

So, what is Open the Door method? it simply says view an opponent as a Door. and how to Open that Door so that you could get into the door and empty out what within the door. is the Open the Door method/technic or Hoi Muun Faat.


Now, there are different ways to open door based on different style. and in WCK, the philosophy is using the Center line theory to identify/ locate the opponent's door and using pull, push, and side way/ updown way to open the door or lock up/lacthing open the door with other side of the door.. And, in the same time, DO NOT let your Opponent to know or have a handle on your own door.


So, this is where the Flow comes in. Flow means DO NOT LET your opponent to find out your door ( no bai jong or static structure or shell) in addition to not give a handle ( no Kiu sau or bridge hand) to your opponent to handle you.

Thus, when one is doing those Bai Jong stuffs, they are exposing their door. May be in other style, that is their intention or strenght...etc but not in WCK. because that is counter WCK's philosophy. Also, one doesnt do the Kiu Sau/ bridge hand as other style because Kiu Sau / bridge hand is the handle of the door. WCK simply dont like others to using WCner's bridge to find, get into or handle the WCner's door.


As the Kuen Kuit says. Kiu Lai Kiu Siong Go, or when there is a bridge, across the bridge to open the door for entering.






What I am saying above is my view on what is WCK. and how can we know that is true ? Simple. Check into the following WCK Kuen Kuit/ concept.





1, Loi Lao Hoi Sung

Loi Lao Hoi Sung (Lai Liu Qu Song) breaks down as follows: Loi represents 'wheat' but has come to mean 'to come, or arrive'; Lao represents 'stopping like a barred door in a water-channeled field' and means means 'to remain, stay, detain, or delay'; Hoi represents 'an (altered) person lacking in straight-forwardness' and means "to go, or remove"; Sung represents 'the merged stepping and stopping of movement around the dowry given to slaves' and means 'to give, to escort, to accompany or to send off.' Together, they mean 'stay with what comes, send off what goes', 'detain what arrives, escort what is removed', etc.



2, Lut Sao Jik Jong


Lut Sao Jik Jong (Shuai Shou Zhi Chong) breaks down as follows: Lut represents a derivative of ' use' to suggest 'disposal' and means 'to throw off, leave behind, or set free'; Sao represents 'the hand' and is extended to 'the arm'; Jik represents 'ten eyes seeing nothing hidden', and means 'straight forward'; Jong represents 'serious marching' and means 'to charge, or thrust'. Together, they mean 'the free hand charges straight forward'.





The above 2 is presenting the WCK signature doesnt do BLOCK.
it is using push, pull, slide, and walk in from the open to handle and Open the Door.











3, Yao Ying Da Ying


Yao Ying Da Ying (You Xing Da Xing) breaks down as follows: Yao represents 'right hand grabbing (altered) meat' and means 'to have, possess, exist'; Ying represents 'lines of equal height' and means 'shape or form'; Da represents 'nailing with hand' and means 'to hit, punch, fight, or do'; Ying, the second time, is a repeat of the first. Together, they mean 'have shape, hit shape'.



4, Mo Ying Da Yieng


Mo Ying Da Yieng (Wu Xing Da Ying) breaks down as follows: Mo represents, in its later form, 'forest destroyed by a multitude of people' and means 'not, no, without'; Ying represents 'lines of equal height' and means 'shape or form'; Da represents 'nailing with hand' and means 'to hit, punch, fight, or do'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'. Together, they can mean 'no shape, strike impression'.



5, Yao Ying Juk Lao

Yao Ying Juk Lao (You Ying Xu Lui) breaks down as follows: Yao represents 'right hand grabbing (altered) meat' and means 'to have, possess, exist'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'; Juk represents 'thread outward purchase' and means 'continue, renew, extend'; Lao represents 'stopping like a barred door in a water-channeled field' and means means 'to remain, stay, detain, or delay'. Together, they mean 'have impression, continue to stay'.



6, Mo Yieng Po Jung

Mo Yieng Po Jung (Wu Ying Po Zhong) breaks down as follows: Mo represents, in its later form, 'forest destroyed by a multitude of people' and means 'not, no, without'; Yieng represents 'shape like the scenic sun above the hill' and means 'shadow or impression'; Po represents 'stones and the hand-held hide of an animal' and means 'break or cleave'; Jung represents 'line bisecting an enclosure' and means means 'center or middle'. Together, they mean 'no impression, cleave the center'.




3, 4, 5, 6, tell one in more in depth what to do while open the opponent's door and also NOT practice what it was said on revealing one's own door to give the opponents the chance. In this case, Good luck if one stuck with Bai Jong, Static structure, or Shell, or different type of Bridge.



Thus, We can see, WCK is about flow, WCK is about adaptive. and the WCK structure is Dynamic -- It is continuously changing and adaptive.


Further more, at very advance level of WCK. One doesnt even want to use rooting...etc because that become a handle for the opponents to open the door.

Dont believe me, get those who knows how to root to play with you in the thick wrestling mat. This way, 1, they will have a difficulties to root because the wrestling mat reflex the force vectors different then the solid ground. 2, they will got a problem in stabiliez their own COG themself, even at Bai Jong.

So, what is it in the advance level? that is where the six directional vectors force come into play. This is similar to saying, one could build a water tower with Earthly physic, like put a good foundation to support the water tower. However, when it comes to launching a rocket or space shutter in space. There is no ground or earth, it is only how to manual the six directional force vectors.


Learn to be smart and got to be scientific and realistic to make logical sense. Some says I use flowery term. in fact it is not flowery term it means something. So, today, I hope you know. NOPE the six directional force vectors generation is not the same with the Rooting grounding....etc. Rooting grounding is just a subset of the six directional force vectors generation which is providing even more flexibility and adaptive and accelearte ability then the common rooting or grounding. One simply doesnt need to always ground the incoming force. one could use it to accerelate to bounce away....etc.

It is flow. it is play. it is dynamic. what is so difficult to understand WCK? only three things. comes accep, goes return, open thrust forward. Every technics can be use without limitation as soon as one doesnt contradict with the comes accep....etc.

Sure, there are advance power generation stuffs...etc which needs to be learn but does one even have the basic? or learning the concept of WCK but keep maintaining the habit of karate punch, baijong, bridge... like the other southern china martial art..... ?

and Why 90% of people cant make their WCK work and has to turn into mixing with other stuffs? Because one doesnt follow WCK's concept instruction as above. It is just six kuen kuit above. that is. why spend a life time get stuck?




For me, disregard of it is YIP Man WCK , YKS WCK, Ku Lao WCK, or Yik Kam WCK of Cho Gar, those are the core of WCK.

IMHO. Look at the 70's movie on the description of WCK. look how they present the come accept, goes return, open trust forward in the pull, push, slide....etc.

You dont like my post and disagree with me? fine. I accept that and expect that. argue with me in technical term. I am open minded with those. But will not response in any kind of cultist defensive attack.

I show you the core of WCK above. if you disagree with me bring up your evident and let's investigate.

and ofcause, things evolve after hundred of years moving out of Red boat. Even in the Yik Kam lineage for Cho Gar things evolve. and there is nothing wrong with it and totally perfect and respected.

However, if one like to get dig deep into what is WCK then one cant avoid the face what is the core. Thus, Here I am not saying who's WCK is not WCK or who's WCK is the original WCK. What I am saying is WCK of the past has a common signature disregard how one implement it be it from IP MAN to Yik Kam...etc.



PS. Thanks Rene for keeping and preserving the Kuen Kuit Writing in his site which I am using above.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for your view. I am sending you lots of love here.

As for your own issue that I leave it for you to settle them yourself since your post is irrivalent to this topic of discussion.

I Always accept you and love you as who you are.






hendrik you are without a doubt the only person on this forum that if given a koan from the Buddha would answer with your own amenable psycho babble. Most of the people here either speak from experience or share what it is they have been taught in their martial art studies. The principle employed in what they share is derived from the sincerity with which they share these things but not you your post are not sincere your arguments are not sincere and least of all your motives for being here are not sincere.

You have nothing to add about bai jong we can move onto moduk. Our HFY Grandmaster like many many professional teachers of martial arts is usually busy teaching, traveling, writing or practicing his arts again things you obviously know little about judging from your post. Again like many many others he is capable of walking the walk and talking the talk you yourself by your own admission claim not to even practice wing chun yet here you stay writing about it day and night. Generally speaking moduk is something taught in the home possibly enhanced on the mat but more a responsibility of the parents than a busy professional teacher. Fortunately we have more than enough of your post to judge the ability of Mr. & Mrs Santos Senior and their ability to impart moduk to you. hendrik does your sifu have a name? well that doesn't even matter because I am sure he too had many students yet your parents only had one child to teach. You hendrik are not doing your parents any favors with you frivolous personal attacks, your poor communication skills, your incessant rants, your insincerity and your unfiltered and endless portrail of your unpleasant traits over and over again on the same topics trying to continually feed off the new, the young and the ill informed. Typically we don't judge our own moduk we let others do that and I am perfectly happy to let mine stand next to yours.

[taai gihk yahn]

But there was no qi left in your red face when you lost your balance and flow to chi sim,...
hendrik as you sat on the ground ....


You like to use your mind to speculate that is fine with me. .

sounds like Hendrick got unceremoniously dumped on his rear by someone (not surprising, given the miserable structure he demonstrated in that video of him doing standing practice - I shudder to think what he must look like when actively engaged w/another person); now, I wonder how exactly is that "speculation"? seems pretty concrete, lol...

Canglong: you have essentially reiterated what myself and several others on here have been stating for some time now: Hendrick engages in baiting, passive-aggressive, mock-humble, ersatz "I accept you all" posturing; it is pointless even to engage him directly, it gets you no where; just sayin'

[canglong]

The only issues here are the facts that neither you nor Robert understand the difference between copying words off of a blackboard and the profound difference of understanding and conveying the meaning and concepts those words represent. The principles of wing chun must be expressed or it is not wing chun plain and simple. Plainly put first you must know yourself. Secondly know your opponent. Be able to express center line and kiu sau concepts used to connect A and B.

Bai Jong expresses point A the opponent is point B and the Kiu sau and center line concept are expressed and used to connects those 2 points. Without this expression there can be no wing chun and hendrik you said your wing chun did not have this so either you don't know the purpose and meaning of bai jong or you don't know wing chun or both.

So we have wing chun's principles, theories and concepts or we have hendrik's pancake theory where you end up flat on your @ss and red faced because you have no concept of bai jong or center line.

[canglong]

taai gihk yahn
True enough yet sometimes hendrik needs to be reminded that words actually do have meaning. You can't let him take up and waste too much of your time so you just have to be selective of when to engage him and his antics.

[Hendrik]

You too I love you as you are.




sounds like Hendrick got unceremoniously dumped on his rear by someone (not surprising, given the miserable structure he demonstrated in that video of him doing standing practice - I shudder to think what he must look like when actively engaged w/another person); now, I wonder how exactly is that "speculation"? seems pretty concrete, lol...

Canglong: you have essentially reiterated what myself and several others on here have been stating for some time now: Hendrick engages in baiting, passive-aggressive, mock-humble, ersatz "I accept you all" posturing; it is pointless even to engage him directly, it gets you no where; just sayin'

[Hendrik]

Sifu Robert Chu is a legitimate direct grand student of GM Ip Man.

GM Ip Man has a legitimate lineage of WCK and a pioneer of WCK in this era ; as everyone in the world of WCK knows.

Your accusation as usual is based less.

That again reflect your Moduk.



Just a friendly advise for you.
You wont win by twisting words, making his-story, instead those un Moduk behaviour just drag yourself down deeper in the eyes of true WCner and real MMA figthers.
Be smarter then what you have act.




The only issues here are the facts that neither you nor Robert understand the difference between copying words off of a blackboard and the profound difference of understanding and conveying the meaning and concepts those words represent. The principles of wing chun must be expressed or it is not wing chun plain and simple. Plainly put first you must know yourself. Secondly know your opponent. Be able to express center line and kiu sau concepts used to connect A and B.

Bai Jong expresses point A the opponent is point B and the Kiu sau and center line concept are expressed and used to connects those 2 points. Without this expression there can be no wing chun and hendrik you said your wing chun did not have this so either you don't know the purpose and meaning of bai jong or you don't know wing chun or both.

So we have wing chun's principles, theories and concepts or we have hendrik's pancake theory where you end up flat on your @ss and red faced because you have no concept of bai jong or center line.

[Hendrik]

To serious WCner who like to discuss technical or even MMA fighters here.

Let's focus on the topic and let's discuss really stuffs and learn and grow together.

There is no perfect system but there is always room to grow when things are examine and learn honestly.

Kungfu Fighter, you study lots of WCK. Tell us what do you think on my view.

[kung fu fighter]

Kungfu Fighter, you study lots of WCK. Tell us what do you think on my view.

I think even though your discriptions are mysterious and flowery at times. I do believe you are on to something in regards to the wing chun equivilent to peng jin in tai chi. I just wish you would explain it more in terms of physics, alignment and bio mechanics instead of making it out to be a big mystery! Wing chun should be simple not mysterious.

[TenTigers]

I think what Hendrick is getting at is:
Structure, or perhaps better, alignment™. My teacher uses both terms. It seems that when many people here hear the word, structure, they are thinking of a person being rigid, and unmoving, like a statue. If you think of it in terms of structural skeletal alignment, it might make more sense. The body is moving, but if your elbow is out, it cannot generate good power, and cannot resist force. Align the elbow, connect with the spine,sacrum, root* and you have structure-while moving.

*which doesn't mean standing there, it means that if you straighten your knees, your hips come out of alignment, and on up the chain.

No Bai-Jong, means that if you "strike a pose,"once you stand, and put up your guard, then I know which gate I can enter. I know your blind side. I know your power side.
If you react to your attacker (attack the attack, attack the intent) then you don't have a set pose. Otherwise, you are a step behind.
That does not mean standing there with your hands down, it means moving, flowing, while having a general cover that is fluid.
I start beginners off with a Boxer's guard. Once they are used to throwing punches without dropping their hands, then they can learn the front facing bai-jong, side facing bai-jong, and Hak Fu Jow Bai Jong (low front lead) and flow from one to the other, while maintaining correct elbow position. The mun sao can flow up, down, in, out etc, and the wu-sao can flow-in front, side, more like a hover.
The footwork can move, and the waist and hips can move.

Bear in mind, that I have a limited experience in WCK, and more in Hung Kuen and SPM, but I believe that certain things (not all) are somewhat universal.

[anerlich]

His views should not be dismissed out of hand.

Most people don't dismiss his views out of hand. They give him the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but eventually realise his pseudo-Zen-Master schtick lacks any real core of understanding, and THEN dismiss him.

I predict that you too will soon arrive at a similar conclusion.

[Hendrik]

I think even though your discriptions are mysterious and flowery at times. I do believe you are on to something in regards to the wing chun equivilent to peng jin in tai chi. I just wish you would explain it more in terms of physics, alignment and bio mechanics instead of making it out to be a big mystery! Wing chun should be simple not mysterious.

Great view. Thanks.

For me WCK is simple only if one view from the top. otherwise there are so many details that it needs to get into. and mysterious is only if one doesnt see the picture yet. Similar to a derivative symbol in math. for those who knows d/dt it is second nature simple. For those needs to learn it from basic math take time and lots of effort to reach that point. and one cant expect differentiation is basic math because it is not belong to that group.

if one keep using the grounding and rooting mind set one is not going to like it when one is standing in a thick bouncy wrestling mat and find all the so called rooting and grounding power unstable. So, grounding and rooting as general thought is not the it. but a limited subset which is great if one use it for demo but in dynamic situation where even the "ground" bounce, it doesnt work.


have anyone go to a wrestling mat, stand with the best structure and forward pressure and testing how is that going to sustain the grapper's inrush and take down? can one really root or ground the incoming force or one just hopelessly loosing all the power which one think one has?

[Hendrik]

What you post is true. I totally agree with you.

and WCK has its uniqueness which needs to be reveal within the situation. WCK's or other styles uniqueness surface after the recognize of the NO Baijong..etc. there is the dynamic structure or signature surface instead of before anything move. It cant be just lips service or movie posture looking good stuffs.

and why does one want to keep learning those static baijong, bridge hand....etc which always make one step behind? in the movie they do that for visual effect to looks great. it real life it is a kiss of death.

and that raise another issue which is after the touch when things are dynamic how to generate power. how is that power generation aids one? see different style has different power generation. A grapper rush in to grap one has started the momentum when one is grap. so how is a other stylist response to that momentum? can one ground or root that rush in momentum? can a hip push counter the full body rush in momentum of the grapper? or can the WCner dissolve the CLF's whip arm...etc. All of those are issues. The so called grounding and rooting, for me, are really very general, it might not suit one's style at all. or even worse it might counter one's effort.
For example a CLF using rooting /grounding power swing a punch at the WCner. if the WCner accept it with the same type of rooting/grounding, then the WCner will loose because 1, WCner has smaller physical expansion mechanics. 2, WCner is one step late in acceleration.

All, type of issues, if one doesnt look into these there is no way one could really use the art. This is because what one think could be against the nature or law of physics. I accept every idea one has what I am posting is can those ideas really work or it is just a believe which have never face the reality.

In general, WCner must be able to dissolve the grapper's hug at the first touch. it must not be the end of the story. it must not default to go down to the ground. otherwise what is WCK? Think about it. It no longer making any sense on all the posture training but can even do anything facing a hug.

My late sifu told me a joke that happen in old time china.
He told me when one guy is doing a butterfly palm while starting a fight, will scream out, "Wu Dip Jiong." The other guy who didnt study kung fu heard that will then stop to fight because the other guy has learn Kung fu. so yes, bai jong is great to scare off those who has no kung fu. but if one met a real deal one will get woops for no one care what is wu dip jiong. the real thing surface after the touch. and if one cant even sustain the first touch. Then, there is no kung fu but dance. or the other party has much higher kung fu then one to even response.




I think what Hendrick is getting at is:
Structure, or perhaps better, alignment™. My teacher uses both terms. It seems that when many people here hear the word, structure, they are thinking of a person being rigid, and unmoving, like a statue. If you think of it in terms of structural skeletal alignment, it might make more sense. The body is moving, but if your elbow is out, it cannot generate good power, and cannot resist force. Align the elbow, connect with the spine,sacrum, root* and you have structure-while moving.

*which doesn't mean standing there, it means that if you straighten your knees, your hips come out of alignment, and on up the chain.

No Bai-Jong, means that if you "strike a pose,"once you stand, and put up your guard, then I know which gate I can enter. I know your blind side. I know your power side.
If you react to your attacker (attack the attack, attack the intent) then you don't have a set pose. Otherwise, you are a step behind.
That does not mean standing there with your hands down, it means moving, flowing, while having a general cover that is fluid.
I start beginners off with a Boxer's guard. Once they are used to throwing punches without dropping their hands, then they can learn the front facing bai-jong, side facing bai-jong, and Hak Fu Jow Bai Jong (low front lead) and flow from one to the other, while maintaining correct elbow position. The mun sao can flow up, down, in, out etc, and the wu-sao can flow-in front, side, more like a hover.
The footwork can move, and the waist and hips can move.

Bear in mind, that I have a limited experience in WCK, and more in Hung Kuen and SPM, but I believe that certain things (not all) are somewhat universal.

[kung fu fighter]

and that raise another issue which is after the touch when things are dynamic how to generate power. how is that power generation aids one? see different style has different power generation. A grapper rush in to grap one has started the momentum when one is grap. so how is a other stylist response to that momentum? can one ground or root that rush in momentum? can a hip push counter the full body rush in momentum of the grapper? or can the WCner dissolve the CLF's whip arm...etc. All of those are issues. The so called grounding and rooting, for me, are really very general, it might not suit one's style at all. or even worse it might counter one's effort.
For example a CLF using rooting /grounding power swing a punch at the WCner. if the WCner accept it with the same type of rooting/grounding, then the WCner will loose because 1, WCner has smaller physical expansion mechanics. 2, WCner is one step late in acceleration.

All, type of issues, if one doesnt look into these there is no way one could really use the art. This is because what one think could be against the nature or law of physics. I accept every idea one has what I am posting is can those ideas really work or it is just a believe which have never face the reality.

In general, WCner must be able to dissolve the grapper's hug at the first touch. it must not be the end of the story. it must not default to go down to the ground. otherwise what is WCK? Think about it. It no longer making any sense on all the posture training but can even do anything facing a hug.

Hendrik,

I think you have the wrong idea about rooting! my defination of rooting is to not stop the opponent's momentum, but instead how to continue it by using leverage from the ground to maneuver and manipulate the opponent's momentum in one's favor for a counter attack by moving in harmony with him. Think of what happens when you try to push a volley ball under water with one hand, how does the vollley ball respond in relation to your force to neutralize it:)

[Hendrik]

I think you have the wrong idea about rooting!

my defination of rooting is to not stop the opponent's momentum,


I am not talking about stop opponent's momentum

Read it again.



if the WCner accept it with the same type of rooting/grounding, then the WCner will loose because
1, WCner has smaller physical expansion mechanics.
2, WCner is one step late in acceleration.






but instead how to continue it by using leverage from the ground to maneuver and manipulate the opponent's momentum in one's favor for a counter attack by moving in harmony with him.

Your idea is sound however,


So, with WCK is a smaller frame or smaller physical expansion mechanics, and in a state of responsive timing which is starting late.

How do you pick up the acceleration and momentum while others has already rolling into you?

There are law of physics here needs to be answer.










Think of what happens when you try to push a volley ball under water with one hand, how does the vollley ball respond in relation to your force to neutralize it:)

You example is not applicable when a cannon ball is shooting at you already. it is not a volley ball under water.

if You cant pick up the acceleration and momentum in the bounded space and time, you hand will be blown away. That is law of physics.

Same power generation engine start late. it is not a volley ball under water which you push at. it is a cannon ball shooting at you and if your timing and speed is wrong it blown your hand away and not be able to even touch it. Try to catch a fast moving base ball which is coming at you is more like it. IMHO.

So, the bottom line, how do you relate or translate the grounding/rooting with this acceleration and momentum pick up. There is no magic but the whole mechanical system needs to be in a dynamic equilibrium otherwise one side got to go.

Let's not getting into Zen or mysterious..... plain simple physics.

If you use the same rooting/grounding method, other has already start the roll for sometime, how do you catch up while you have a smaller physical frame and your body is not in motion yet. Meaning you need to counter the innertial and over come the smaller motion to catch up with the others.

what do you think?

[kung fu fighter]

How do you pick up the acceleration and momentum while others has already rolling into you?

Comes accept! once you are in contact with the oppoenent, you control his spinal column at first touch and thus his balance as the primary first objective when attacked.

[Hendrik]

Comes accept! once you are in contact with the oppoenent, you control his spinal column at first touch and thus his balance as the primary first objective when attacked.


You dont get my points.

1, Come accept. How easy to accept a 100 miles base ball? how easy to come accept a fast boxer's punch or CLF's punch with full momentum?

does your hand has enough speed to make the contact without get blown away?

and how is that acceleration of hand power by your so called rooting and grounding?



2, how do you control his spinal column and in fact if that " base ball" or " fast punch" is too fast for you your wrist might be dislocate or any part of your limps weak link which take the impulse will break.

have you seriously contact with some hard style master's bridge in action where one's hand get slam away at the first contact? or both your tan hand and Da hand both get slam away?

From your reply, I presume you have never meet this grade of people.


You see, I dont buy nice wishes. It doesnt work. Your idea is very likely to be aborted at the first touch of the contact and the rest of the ideas die out.


One needs to know how to handle that in coming fast ball before talking about how to play the ball or what to control. that is just a cold fact.\

by now, some will say, oh, I will intercept his body...etc. Good, but then still how is your body generate the power to intercept his body? how is your so called grounding or rooting translate to the momentum created to intercept his body and sustain the impact since nothing is perfect.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Nothing to do with race, or culture.

No longer secret to only the chinese, real chinese kungfu is available to all as some of videos will show.

Simple formula, training in ancient proven methods produces same results for everyone.

If people dont ever train in it, to experience the results, all talk is just talk fu not
kung fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMcZddqmvw8&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7QIFkd2ElE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1X8Ww4nymQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y_EbFgwiBs&feature=PlayList&p=518D48509AEB445A&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

In the natural realm of things, survival goes to the fittest. Animals get extinct because they cant survive the enviroment, circumstances.

Thousands of years of chinese kungfu, qigong, tcm, tcma, concepts of fajing, fachi, fashen, have survived and prospered with the chinese emerging as the biggest population in the world.

And yet there are those who still doubt chinese kungfu, and chinese internal arts and ask if these things are true or exist.

For those who believe
No explanation is necessary

For those who do not believe
No explanation is possible

[taai gihk yahn]

You too I love you as you are.
LOL; ur such a twit...

[Hendrik]

LOL; ur such a twit...


What can I do beside give you all the love to accept you as who you are beside give love?
or else I have to waste my energy in negative which I choose not to because it is meaningless and no reason to be in misery because you are who you are.

[Hendrik]

Shadow,

I am not impress with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU&feature=related

because he is using brute force and his momentum or stepping. if others has a bigger mass and momentum he will be in trouble.

This is not the fajing level yet. IMHHO.

So, what is this person missing? Hua Jin. dissolving Jin. See without dissolving Jin, one always has to counter the incoming jin with bigger power. with Hua Jin, one accept and let it dissolve and then shoot him out without go head one compete in power.

Thus, IMHO, he is not in the fajing level yet because he doesnt have the Hua Jin cultivation and thus will not reach the state where the 94 years old master or GM Huang has. It is all about Hua Jin. Hua Jin play the tricks and magic. but not many could do it. Look at the hip of those who has hua jin and you see no power issuing there, not need to . the intention move the power is there.

[k gledhill]

Shadow,

I am not impress with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU&feature=related

because he is using brute force and his momentum or stepping. if others has a bigger mass and momentum he will be in trouble.

This is not the fajing level yet. IMHHO.

So, what is this person missing? Hua Jin. dissolving Jin. See without dissolving Jin, one always has to counter the incoming jin with bigger power. with Hua Jin, one accept and let it dissolve and then shoot him out without go head one compete in power.

Thus, IMHO, he is not in the fajing level yet because he doesnt have the Hua Jin cultivation and thus will not reach the state where the 94 years old master or GM Huang has. It is all about Hua Jin. Hua Jin play the tricks and magic. but not many could do it. Look at the hip of those who has hua jin and you see no power issuing there, not need to . the intention move the power is there.


okay , I'll ask :rolleyes:, why are u showing tai chi here ? please dont try to tell me "its chi-sao stuffs."

[Hendrik]

okay , I'll ask :rolleyes:, why are u showing tai chi here ? please dont try to tell me "its chi-sao stuffs."


One can always compare one's own art with others to know oneself better. Why so closed minded?

[k gledhill]

One can always compare one's own art with others to know oneself better. Why so closed minded?

not closed , asking whats it got to do with VT ?

[Hendrik]

not closed , asking whats it got to do with VT ?


Know your self and your enemy.

[k gledhill]

Know your self and your enemy.


taichi is my enemy ? thanks ...I thought they where on our side...got it, enemy .

[taai gihk yahn]

What can I do beside give you all the love to accept you as who you are beside give love?
or else I have to waste my energy in negative which I choose not to because it is meaningless and no reason to be in misery because you are who you are.

ur an even bigger moron than I thought you were

[duende]

Most people don't dismiss his views out of hand. They give him the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but eventually realise his pseudo-Zen-Master schtick lacks any real core of understanding, and THEN dismiss him.

I predict that you too will soon arrive at a similar conclusion.

****BINGO!!!***

So now there's no bridge in WC. Only flow. Haha...

Study with Master Hendrik and you will learn how to defeat your opponents without even touching them!!!

:D



One can always compare one's own art with others to know oneself better. Why so closed minded?

Hmmmmm..... is there an echo around here??

[taai gihk yahn]

****BINGO!!!***

So now there's no bridge in WC. Only flow. Haha...

Study with Master Hendrik and you will learn how to defeat your opponents without even touching them!!!

:D

hey certainly leads by example...

[Hendrik]

ur an even bigger moron than I thought you were

I choose to be happy and doesnt matter what other think.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Its internal chinese martial arts. Not just taiji.

Whats the relation?

Its the usage of the body. Same body as everyone else. Just a different type of training leading to different results

Some schools of thought says this is a far more efficient way of training, and the power grows inside- neijia, versus the fali style of training, which is waijia.

How many can move someone with apparently minor movements or no movements when they are 94? This is the result of many years of internal training.

[taai gihk yahn]

I choose to be happy and doesnt matter what other think.
you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time making that point...:rolleyes:

[chusauli]

I could write all I could about the taste of a mango, yet it would do no good unless one went out and tasted a mango. This is what Hendrik is speaking of, not to go study with him. And personally, I usually do not accept students these days because I am too busy for that.

Borrowing more martial arts terminology, using hip is Ming Jing - a level of obvious power... it is just a beginner's level. Higher levels would be An Jing - hiding the power. Some of the video clips here show that. Another level is Hua Jing - Changing/neutralization power - like water moves downstream, a snake slithers in the grass, a dog shakes off water from his coat. Hendrik's saying is snakes don't have hips is a big hint.

One keeps looking for a hip, but one requires to have Ting Jing (Listening) and Dong Jing (Interpretative). Having a hip is a beginner. Advanced people look like they have no structure/biomechanics at all. They can pack weight on their frame without overload to certain areas.

Let me ask you all:

Which is correct of the weight distribution of 100/0, 90/10, 70/30, 60/40, 50/50?

Hands on will tell you - and then you will understand what is meant by Shuang Zhong - Double weighting or not.
__________________
Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME
chusauli@gmail.com

Chr Two Ni E Jya La Mi Li Ju Bwo Li Dan La Ye Ning Jye Li
Edit/Delete Message

[Hendrik]

Robert,

Great post!

Certainly, lots to be learn instead of just reading and thinking.

[m1k3]

Let me ask you all:

Which is correct of the weight distribution of 100/0, 90/10, 70/30, 60/40, 50/50?


__________________
Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME
chusauli@gmail.com

Chr Two Ni E Jya La Mi Li Ju Bwo Li Dan La Ye Ning Jye Li
Edit/Delete Message

The one that lets you keep riding the surfboard at that moment.

BTW, very good post even though I am not a big mango fan. :)

[kung fu fighter]

Borrowing more martial arts terminology, using hip is Ming Jing - a level of obvious power... it is just a beginner's level. Higher levels would be An Jing - hiding the power. Some of the video clips here show that. Another level is Hua Jing - Changing/neutralization power - like water moves downstream, a snake slithers in the grass, a dog shakes off water from his coat. Hendrik's saying is snakes don't have hips is a big hint.

Great post Robert,

Perhaps you can give us a little more details on Hua Jing and An jing?

In regards to Hendrik's structure, what did you mean by this ?



I was surprised when Andreas Hoffman did the same, although he looked like a different horse, he still gyrated his pelvis like love making. Hendrik Santo also does the same idea, but subtler.

How does Hendrik Santo do this in a subtler manner. which one of the jings above is he using?

I am familar with the body mechanics that Andreas and you uses to generate structure and power. What are the differences between the way Andreas and you applies body structure/usage compared to how hendrik Santo does it in the Yik Kam linage?

[duende]

Advanced people look like they have no structure/biomechanics at all. They can pack weight on their frame without overload to certain areas.


Sure...

They may "look" like they don't have structure, but we both know that they most certainly do have structure. And that it has just already been fully adopted into their natural energy expression.


Strategy of course also comes into play.

I would say most people here know this already. Or at least understand the difference between the first few thin layers of an onion and the deeper thicker more pungent layers beneath.

This is the nature of learning.

However, at the end of the day... An onion is still an onion. The logic flow remains.

Hendriks understanding and descriptions of Bai Jong and Kiu Sau do not even describe the first layers, much less the knowledge contained within... Yet he would suggest throwing them out entirely without an awareness of the fruit beneath the skin.

[chusauli]

Great post Robert,

Perhaps you can give us a little more details on Hua Jing and An jing?

An Jing means the strength is there, but hidden. Hua Jing means the strength is changing with the opponent's changing strength - as such, you are in a state of flux to neutralize.


In regards to Hendrik's structure, what did you mean by this ?

It means that Hendrik can Hua Jing.



How does Hendrik Santo do this in a subtler manner. which one of the jings above is he using?

I am familar with the body mechanics that Andreas and you uses to generate structure and power. What are the differences between the way Andreas and you applies body structure/usage compared to how hendrik Santo does it in the Yik Kam linage?


If you are familiar, you must only know the movement of the pelvis is only at the Ming Jing stage, otherwise you know Hendrik can Hua Jing, and it looks like this shape or that shape, accordingly to the vector force the opponent gives him. So dealing with vector force, when you have the idea, has no shape. As I said, you do not overload your frame, (hence "collapsing structure"), but can relax the muscles so that the vector force is "conducted" along the frame. This way, you can slow the opponent, uproot them, throw them at will, push a little to get their reaction, then strike them as you like. This is all embodied in the WCK Kuit, "Kuen Yau Sum Faat".

I can tell you all the words, but if you cannot do this, it is meaningless.

Also, if you have never seen it, it is meaningless.

If you know what I am saying, and can do what I am saying, then you have already attained. And you know my level, and can do my level. If this is the case, then 5 battle arrays is not a big deal.

If you ridicule and say this is all BS, then you have no inkling.

[shawchemical]

Because you have people trying to learn "structure" by doing unrealistic drills like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwaZxsYkEcU

When, in reality, effective structure looks more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shtzE6brI08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k2oXxEOyUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXVLCW7PUvU&feature=related

Structures can be different, and yet perform the same task. Look at the different types of structures that have all been used to construct working bridges. London bridge, Sydney harbour, golden gate etc etc etc.

What is the key similarity in all of those clips you posted, including the WSL one???

Forget the unnecessary stylistic bull**** that you go on endlessly with, and concentrate of the heart of the matter. You cannot compare a training drill with a competition, to do so would be trying to make apple cider from potatoes.
But at the core of it, you're saying that something about the way that the guys in the competitions are moving is different from what the seung ma; toi ma drills teach. What is it?? And why is the drill not a valid method to teach it??

But above all, the similarities in the videos far outweigh any of the bull**** you vomit forth with little personal understanding in every post you make.

[t_niehoff]

Structures can be different, and yet perform the same task. Look at the different types of structures that have all been used to construct working bridges. London bridge, Sydney harbour, golden gate etc etc etc.


Your analogy is flawed.

The "structure" in WCK or fighting is not and cannot be fixed or static, but is constantly in dynamic flux.



What is the key similarity in all of those clips you posted, including the WSL one???


In all of them the people involved believe they are using genuine fighting skills.

The key dissimilarity is that they are except the people in the WSL clip.



Forget the unnecessary stylistic bull**** that you go on endlessly with, and concentrate of the heart of the matter. You cannot compare a training drill with a competition, to do so would be trying to make apple cider from potatoes.


This is where you are wrong. If you look at judo's training (randori) or wrestling's training (wrestling) or MMAs training (sparring), you see that what they do practice is exactly what they do in competition -- that they develop their target skill by practicing their target skill.



But at the core of it, you're saying that something about the way that the guys in the competitions are moving is different from what the seung ma; toi ma drills teach. What is it?? And why is the drill not a valid method to teach it??


Because you are not going to move like that when you fight. So you are practicing moving one way/ doing one thing to then move another way/ do something else -- that is the definition of poor training.



But above all, the similarities in the videos far outweigh any of the bull**** you vomit forth with little personal understanding in every post you make.

"Little personal understanding" of what? How to really train like a fighter or develop high levels of fighting skills?

I find it amazing that people who allegedly are practicing a martial art to develop some level of fighting skills will consciously disregard and ignore insights on how to effectively train from genuine, proven fighters yet doggedly stick to traditional nonsense that all the evidence overwhelmingly shows is useless.

There is an old saying about the definition of insanity being to continue doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

[Knifefighter]

Shadow,

I am not impress with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU&feature=related

because he is using brute force and his momentum or stepping. if others has a bigger mass and momentum he will be in trouble..

LOL @ brute force. He's not doing cr@p. Those guys are jumping and throwing themselves backwards. If you can't see that, there's something wrong with you.

The fact is, most people talking here about structure are clueless. If they would take a basic physics and biomechanics class, they would see how most of the things they are saying make no sense from a rational standpoint.

[shawchemical]

Your analogy is flawed.

The "structure" in WCK or fighting is not and cannot be fixed or static, but is constantly in dynamic flux.



In all of them the people involved believe they are using genuine fighting skills.

The key dissimilarity is that they are except the people in the WSL clip.



This is where you are wrong. If you look at judo's training (randori) or wrestling's training (wrestling) or MMAs training (sparring), you see that what they do practice is exactly what they do in competition -- that they develop their target skill by practicing their target skill.



Because you are not going to move like that when you fight. So you are practicing moving one way/ doing one thing to then move another way/ do something else -- that is the definition of poor training.



"Little personal understanding" of what? How to really train like a fighter or develop high levels of fighting skills?

I find it amazing that people who allegedly are practicing a martial art to develop some level of fighting skills will consciously disregard and ignore insights on how to effectively train from genuine, proven fighters yet doggedly stick to traditional nonsense that all the evidence overwhelmingly shows is useless.

There is an old saying about the definition of insanity being to continue doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

The analogy is perfect. Your understanding is flawed. Bridges must be able to flex and move, without it they are rocked to disintegration like the one in this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mclp9QmCGs&feature=related.

You're not going to move like what in a fight?? Why on earth woudl you postulate that you would not move your feet in a fight?? That's what the drill teaches. The structure during a fight is relative to the other person, but is more importantly relative to your own body. Collapse is as bad as overextension and should be avoided at all costs.

You're right about the training like you will fight aspect of it though. Train like you are going to fight. Never the less, this makes little difference to the discussion at hand. We are training VT/WC etc, and thus that is how we should train to fight.

Barry Lee has a saying that goes "Consistency is the key to training in any discipline."

Keep trying to work what the similarity is, it is exceedingly obvious. Even more so in the Silva clip.

[Hendrik]

LOL @ brute force. He's not doing cr@p. .

You certainly sound like that boxer in IP Man 2 the movie.

[Knifefighter]

The analogy is perfect. Your understanding is flawed. Bridges must be able to flex and move, without it they are rocked to disintegration like the one in this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mclp9QmCGs&feature=related.

No, your analogy is flawed. A bridge collapses like that because of resonance frequency. Has nothing to do with how much it is "able" to flex and move.

[Knifefighter]

You certainly sound like that boxer in IP Man 2 the movie.

Since I didn't see the movie, I don't know what you are referring to.

[YungChun]

LOL @ brute force. He's not doing cr@p. Those guys are jumping and throwing themselves backwards. If you can't see that, there's something wrong with you.


I wouldn't say that they were throwing themselves (that's what most Aikido folks do) these folks were just not resisting the power given them, otherwise there is nothing supernatural about shoving someone backward who is not balanced and cooperating..

[Knifefighter]

I wouldn't say that they were throwing themselves (that's what most Aikido folks do) these folks were just not resisting the power given them, otherwise there is nothing supernatural about shoving someone backward who is not balanced and cooperating..

They were jumping and throwing themselves backwards. Watch their legs.

[duende]

If you know what I am saying, and can do what I am saying, then you have already attained. And you know my level, and can do my level. If this is the case, then 5 battle arrays is not a big deal.

If you ridicule and say this is all BS, then you have no inkling.


The BS is the strawman argument being made here over and over again.

No one is saying structure is fixed, or that it is not dynamic.


And if as you say, our 5-battle arrays are not a big deal... then why do you feel the need to criticize them?

Especially considering the fact, that you admittedly are not an expert in their regard.



Again, why is there such a need to put others knowledge down to promote you're own?




If you are familiar, you must only know the movement of the pelvis is only at the Ming Jing stage, otherwise you know Hendrik can Hua Jing, and it looks like this shape or that shape, accordingly to the vector force the opponent gives him. So dealing with vector force, when you have the idea, has no shape. As I said, you do not overload your frame, (hence "collapsing structure"), but can relax the muscles so that the vector force is "conducted" along the frame. This way, you can slow the opponent, uproot them, throw them at will, push a little to get their reaction, then strike them as you like. This is all embodied in the WCK Kuit, "Kuen Yau Sum Faat".

I can tell you all the words, but if you cannot do this, it is meaningless.

Also, if you have never seen it, it is meaningless.

Why would anyone practicing WC disagree with what you have written above? What you have written is WCK.

The disagreement is with the simple-minded criticism and intentional misrepresentation of Bai Jong and Kiu Sau. (And yes Hendrick, we even have Half Point Kiu Sau :p Hahaha)



The truth of the matter is that there are key fundamental ways of dealing with an opponent's oncoming energy.

It appears Hendrick, and now you are calling them 6 vector forces. From my HFY learning, we would recognize this energy within our Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat.

The five battle arrays you mention... That has to do with STRATEGY. Meaning applying the 5 elements understanding of energy to the over-all timeframes within fighting. Or the Macro-cosmic perspective.

Do not confuse the purpose and focus of our Ng Jan Chui Min Juei Ying (5 battle arrays).

It is the Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat that has to do with direct energy. This is the micro-cosmic perspective.

Together they are representative of the ever constant Logic Flow we in HFY so often write about.

One could philosophize them as fractals, as in the nature of all things. This is what makes WCK a true SYSTEM.



You can criticize all you like, but you have grossly misjudged the depth of knowledge contained within HFYWCK.

[shawchemical]

No, your analogy is flawed. A bridge collapses like that because of resonance frequency. Has nothing to do with how much it is "able" to flex and move.

You still miss the point moron.

The point was that many different approaches to structure can result in a similar outcome - that being a functional bridge.

[Hendrik]

A bridge collapses like that because of resonance frequency. Has nothing to do with how much it is "able" to flex and move.


This is a contradict statement.

[Frost]

ur an even bigger moron than I thought you were

after reading (or trying to read) some of his posts i have to say this somes the guy up perfectly

[Hendrik]

It will be a great help for you if you learn to observe,
instead of react with all kind of claim on things you dont know totally.

In WCK, one was taught to sense and Doing Mun Sau not Bai Jong, that is because In WCK, the WCner is suppose to ask and sense and observe and adapt to what is going on instead of throwing action or words out senseless. That is the key of Comes accept, Goes return...etc.
See, these are not Kiu Sau or Baijong stuffs. Different concept.

Do you even do WCK, Since there is no sign of ASK and Sense signature in your behavior?







The BS is the strawman argument being made here over and over again.

No one is saying structure is fixed, or that it is not dynamic.


And if as you say, our 5-battle arrays are not a big deal... then why do you feel the need to criticize them?

Especially considering the fact, that you admittedly are not an expert in their regard.



Again, why is there such a need to put others knowledge down to promote you're own?




Why would anyone practicing WC disagree with what you have written above? What you have written is WCK.

The disagreement is with the simple-minded criticism and intentional misrepresentation of Bai Jong and Kiu Sau. (And yes Hendrick, we even have Half Point Kiu Sau :p Hahaha)



The truth of the matter is that there are key fundamental ways of dealing with an opponent's oncoming energy.

It appears Hendrick, and now you are calling them 6 vector forces. From my HFY learning, we would recognize this energy within our Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat.

The five battle arrays you mention... That has to do with STRATEGY. Meaning applying the 5 elements understanding of energy to the over-all timeframes within fighting. Or the Macro-cosmic perspective.

Do not confuse the purpose and focus of our Ng Jan Chui Min Juei Ying (5 battle arrays).

It is the Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat that has to do with direct energy. This is the micro-cosmic perspective.

Together they are representative of the ever constant Logic Flow we in HFY so often write about.

One could philosophize them as fractals, as in the nature of all things. This is what makes WCK a true SYSTEM.



You can criticize all you like, but you have grossly misjudged the depth of knowledge contained within HFYWCK.

[Knifefighter]

This is a contradict statement.

All structures flex and move. Mechanical resonance is the phenomenom of a structure flexing and moving in harmony with the environment. This results in a tendency for excess energy to be absorbed and leads to violent swaying motions because of the resonance.

[duende]

It will be a great help for you if you learn to observe,
instead of react with all kind of claim on things you dont know totally.


Ummm... do you read your own posts? Know yourself Hendrik before you can know others.




In WCK, one was taught to sense and Doing Mun Sau not Bai Jong, that is because In WCK, the WCner is suppose to ask and sense and observe and adapt to what is going on instead of throwing action or words out senseless. That is the key of Comes accept, Goes return...etc.
See, these are not Kiu Sau or Baijong stuffs. Different concept.

Do you even do WCK, Since there is no sign of ASK and Sense signature in your behavior?

Do you ask to exist?

With your Mun Sau, you ask your opponent a question, and then they (your opponent) gives you an answer.

In HFY, we meet and accept oncoming energy, and then restore harmony. Energy dictates all. There is no question, there is no answer. Our goal is simply to exist in harmony with the natures. For if you don't exist, you are a non-starter! hahaha

For you to state that there is no WC or SENSING here, is ridiculous.



But just to make you happy, I'll do some Hendrik WC for ya:

Who is it that is making statements and claims they no nothing about??? (QUESTION)

Hendrik Santo! (ANSWER)

[chusauli]

The BS is the strawman argument being made here over and over again.

No one is saying structure is fixed, or that it is not dynamic.


And if as you say, our 5-battle arrays are not a big deal... then why do you feel the need to criticize them?

Especially considering the fact, that you admittedly are not an expert in their regard.

Don't take too much stock in what I know or don't know...you feel the need to discredit me, yet I have said nothing to disparage you. As a student, it is better that I take the attitude of knowing nothing, so I may receive teaching.

I am not criticizing them at all. I agree 100% with them. And they are not that much different from TWC's 5 concepts or other WCK systems. I do not understand why you have to position it as such. In fact, all WCK works on those five ideas, regardless of what you call them.

For example, in Yip Man WCK, we speak of:

1) Chiu Mien Dui Ying
2) Bik Ma Yap Mun
3) Por Jung
4) Juie Ying
5) Wui San or Wui Jung Sien

WCK is WCK.



Again, why is there such a need to put others knowledge down to promote you're own?

Forgive me Alex, but perhaps you are reading something different. I completely respect GG and HFY. I fully expect him to have high knowledge since he has family training in the Fu Zhen Xiong system and his father is known in those circles.

Some of your HFY bretheren have displayed complete disrespect to me. I have been very patient. But I appreciate your sect's loyalty. I also do not look at these as personal attacks, these are just spirited discussions.

I see the rudeness, yelling, anger and swearing as a weak man's imitation of strength. Also, in training martial arts, you are given a responsibility. Shouldn't it reflect you are mature enough to handle that responsibility? I don't want to have to quote Spiderman to you...



Why would anyone practicing WC disagree with what you have written above? What you have written is WCK.

Good, we are in agreement.


The disagreement is with the simple-minded criticism and intentional misrepresentation of Bai Jong and Kiu Sau. (And yes Hendrick, we even have Half Point Kiu Sau :p Hahaha)

Let's not take this the wrong way, but really, you have to look at it from an observer's point of view... Yes, you have both SNT and SLT. And you have a similar TWC Entry technique, and you have amazingly similar forms to TWC like the ASLT, CK, and Jong. And you have the same Ying, Yi, Lei, Faht characters as Weng Chun, and similar 6.5 points and 18 Kiu Sao. You also have a computer generated photo of your Si Gung, and a school unwilling to show people your "secrets"...its no wonder why people get the impression that HFY is well, fishy...then you go and say, "Its our perogative to keep our secrets!" You create your karma with your actions. I am in no way attacking HFY now. Personally, I really like the summary of the Sup Ming Dim. I think it is quite well packaged.



The truth of the matter is that there are key fundamental ways of dealing with an opponent's oncoming energy.

It appears Hendrick, and now you are calling them 6 vector forces. From my HFY learning, we would recognize this energy within our Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat.

Alex, 6 vector forces is an old, old term. You can see them in old legitimate martial arts like Zi Men, Tai Zu, Shaolin, etc. This is nothing new. What's new are your terms.



The five battle arrays you mention... That has to do with STRATEGY. Meaning applying the 5 elements understanding of energy to the over-all timeframes within fighting. Or the Macro-cosmic perspective.

Do not confuse the purpose and focus of our Ng Jan Chui Min Juei Ying (5 battle arrays).

It is the Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat that has to do with direct energy. This is the micro-cosmic perspective.

Together they are representative of the ever constant Logic Flow we in HFY so often write about.

One could philosophize them as fractals, as in the nature of all things. This is what makes WCK a true SYSTEM.

What is a true system, what is a false system? A system is just a body of knowledge to take you from ignorance to understanding. There is a tendency to a lot of HFYisms or jargon.




You can criticize all you like, but you have grossly misjudged the depth of knowledge contained within HFYWCK.

I have no criticism. I think it is a good system and makes a lot of sense. It reminds me a lot of TWC, which I think highly of.

[Hendrik]

Lot of love to you. and I have no comment on your view here on.




Ummm... do you read your own posts? Know yourself Hendrik before you can know others.



Do you ask to exist?

With your Mun Sau, you ask your opponent a question, and then they (your opponent) gives you an answer.

In HFY, we meet and accept oncoming energy, and then restore harmony. Energy dictates all. There is no question, there is no answer. Our goal is simply to exist in harmony with the natures. For if you don't exist, you are a non-starter! hahaha

For you to state that there is no WC or SENSING here, is ridiculous.



But just to make you happy, I'll do some Hendrik WC for ya:

Who is it that is making statements and claims they no nothing about??? (QUESTION)

Hendrik Santo! (ANSWER)

[Hendrik]

All structures flex and move.


Mechanical resonance is the phenomenom of a structure flexing and moving in harmony with the environment.

This results in a tendency for excess energy to be absorbed and leads to violent swaying motions because of the resonance.



Have you ever heard about DAMPING FACTOR? DAMPER? under damp , over damp, critical damp, system compensation? and do you know what is a Pole and Zero in a control system?

What are they?


Do you homework; get a clear understanding before applied those resonance stuffs. Without a clear concept, how are you applied these in Body mechanic or Bio....etc.

I certainly could reply your post in the same way you post. however that is not the point isnt it?


Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
That's why you need to couple it with biomechanics. Add an exercise physiology class to that
\and you wouldn't talk the nonsense you talk now.




also, I have never believe in those who advocate grounding/rooting to the ground as the Truth of Universe top martial art. It cant be done.

So, why is six directional force vectors is needed? that is because with the manupulation of the six directional force, one "compensate " one's dynamic physical system's Zero and Pole, be able to achieve a oscillatory system for fajing, an under damp system for fast acceleration, a critical damp system for flowing, an over damp system for power absorbtion. and the question is do one's body has that six directional force vectors training and ability?

It is always silly to be similar to a frog under the well and thinking the sky is a wide as the opening of the well.

[Knifefighter]

Have you ever heard about DAMPING FACTOR? DAMPER? under damp , over damp, critical damp, system compensation? and do you know what is a Pole and Zero in a control system?

The fact is, those are completely irrelevant to the original analogy of flexibility and movement.



Without a clear concept, how are you applied these in Body mechanic or Bio....etc.

Mechanical resonance plays no role in body mechanics and efficiency of human performance.

[kung fu fighter]

An Jing means the strength is there, but hidden. Hua Jing means the strength is changing with the opponent's changing strength - as such, you are in a state of flux to neutralize.

It means that Hendrik can Hua Jing.


If you are familiar, you must only know the movement of the pelvis is only at the Ming Jing stage, otherwise you know Hendrik can Hua Jing, and it looks like this shape or that shape, accordingly to the vector force the opponent gives him. So dealing with vector force, when you have the idea, has no shape. As I said, you do not overload your frame, (hence "collapsing structure"), but can relax the muscles so that the vector force is "conducted" along the frame. .

Robert, thank you very much for the explaination,

This was exactly the answer that I was looking for!!

I also use An jing, but I always thought of it as peng jing. and I also use hua jing, but I just think of it as changing to neutralize or to manipulate the opponent's force. I was not familar with the terminology. Thanks again for the clarification.

When you met Andreas Hoffman, did he also use An jing and Hua jing, because I've only seen him do ming jing?




[This way, you can slow the opponent, uproot them, throw them at will, push a little to get their reaction, then strike them as you like. This is all embodied in the WCK Kuit, "Kuen Yau Sum Faat".

This hit it right on the nail. I like to think of it as the Spheric Force Field of Offense and Defense:)






Most of the time, those who have a "structure" use it at the wrong distance. WCK is supposed to use structure at a close distance to offset the opponent's balance.

I agree with this 100%!

What are some of the strategies that you use to close the distance to be able to apply structure?

[Hendrik]

The fact is, those are completely irrelevant to the original analogy of flexibility and movement.
Mechanical resonance plays no role in body mechanics and efficiency of human performance.



Who cares about analogy? What is the point to get all the knowledge which is non applicable with the reality? isnt it those stuffs are just talk nonsense as you phrase it? nonsense from east or west or physics are all nonsense.


In fact, mechanical resonance plays a major role in FAJING performance. It is via resonance or starting of oscillatory state one get a fast acceleration and make a momentum transfer, although One usually not finished an oscillation cycle or the second cycle has left with only very little momentum / amplitude to resonance.



it is about dynamic control system design technology. Same with in Robotics today same with human body. if one intended to go physics then go all the way instead of wasting time on wrong model and wrong assumption just to win an argument for ego boost.



and in fact,


why is six directional force vectors handling is needed? that is because with the manupulation of the six directional force, one "compensate " one's dynamic physical system's Zero and Pole, be able to achieve a oscillatory system for fajing, an under damp system for fast acceleration, a critical damp system for flowing, an over damp system for power absorbtion. and the question is do one's body has that six directional force vectors training and ability to implement them?



Thus, I have never believe in those who advocate grounding/rooting to the ground as the Truth of Universe top martial art. that is not the case. those are just one single case or one element for designing a dynamic power transfer system.



With this, I would love to let those who always says " I have it too. I can Hua Jin too......my WC has the six directional force vectors... as in this chinese term or that chinese term." Dont kid yourself. It is about technology to make things happen. It is not lips service.

[chusauli]

Robert, thank you very much for the explaination,

This was exactly the answer that I was looking for!!

Great.


I also use An jing, but I always thought of it as peng jing. and I also use hua jing, but I just think of it as changing to neutralize or to manipulate the opponent's force. I was not familar with the terminology. Thanks again for the clarification.

When you met Andreas Hoffman, did he also use An jing and Hua jing, because I've only seen him do ming jing?

An Jing means you hide your obvious, make it subtle. It is not Peng Jing. Peng Jing is Tai Ji's way to whole body power, as expressed in the first of the 13 ways of Tai Ji. It means head to toe is connected.

Hua Jing is using neutralization of energy. Where did I put the load? Where can I load so I don't overload to restrict or slow me? How much control do I need? It is about using just enough, not go overboard all out, all of the time.


This hit it right on the nail. I like to think of it as the Spheric Force Field of Offense and Defense:)

GM Chu Shang Tin also relates is like this, too.

Basically you have a cue ball - you can aim it in all directions around you...and shoot or expand as you desire.



I agree with this 100%!

What are some of the strategies that you use to close the distance to be able to apply structure?

You should already know...the strategies are all WCK - Yap Mun (Enter to gate), Bik Seung (Close in), Sik Dae (Eat Space), Juie Ying (Chase Form), Tib San (Close Body), Hung Jai Sum Jung (Control the Center of Gravity)... and others. That is the Kuen Faat of WCK.

[Wayfaring]

An Jing means the strength is there, but hidden. Hua Jing means the strength is changing with the opponent's changing strength - as such, you are in a state of flux to neutralize.

It means that Hendrik can Hua Jing.


And of course don't forget the Dung Jing, which is the force with which you can take a ....


Oh, never mind.

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks for the reply Robert!


An Jing means you hide your obvious, make it subtle. It is not Peng Jing. Peng Jing is Tai Ji's way to whole body power, as expressed in the first of the 13 ways of Tai Ji. It means head to toe is connected..

I used the term Peng jing to discribe the wing chun whole body connectedness because it was the closest term that i could find that explained this idea. Since I didn't think wing chun had a name for this.




GM Chu Shang Tin also relates is like this, too.

Would you say GM Tsui Sheung Tin uses the 6 Directional force vector, hua jin, and An jing as well?





You should already know...the strategies are all WCK - Yap Mun (Enter to gate), Bik Seung (Close in), Sik Dae (Eat Space), Juie Ying (Chase Form), Tib San (Close Body), Hung Jai Sum Jung (Control the Center of Gravity)... and others. That is the Kuen Faat of WCK.

I am familar with these strategies, I guess What I am asking is how do you personnally apply them?

[Knifefighter]

Who cares about analogy?

Apparently, you did.


In fact, mechanical resonance plays a major role in FAJING performance. It is via resonance or starting of oscillatory state one get a fast acceleration and make a momentum transfer, although One usually not finished an oscillation cycle or the second cycle has left with only very little momentum / amplitude to resonance.
why is six directional force vectors handling is needed? that is because with the manupulation of the six directional force, one "compensate " one's dynamic physical system's Zero and Pole, be able to achieve a oscillatory system for fajing, an under damp system for fast acceleration, a critical damp system for flowing, an over damp system for power absorbtion. and the question is do one's body has that six directional force vectors training and ability to implement them?.

LOL @ six directional force vectors, mechanical resonance, and Fajing... welcome to the zone of the theoretical non-fighter (tm).

[chusauli]

Thanks for the reply Robert!

You're welcome.



[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014378]I used the term Peng jing to discribe the wing chun whole body connectedness because it was the closest term that i could find that explained this idea. Since I didn't think wing chun had a name for this.

This is not correct. Peng is a Tai Ji word.



Would you say GM Tsui Sheung Tin uses the 6 Directional force vector, hua jin, and An jing as well?

Why don't you ask him?

I do not like to answer questions like this. Can you guess why?



I am familar with these strategies, I guess What I am asking is how do you personnally apply them?

KFF, WCK is basically Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung. It is not how I apply it - it is how you apply it. I do not teach my way, I show you a way or options, then you make your choice. WCK is not like other systems that gives you one answer. Its all about choices. You should know this. If Dunn Wah taught like Moy Yat, you know this is the way.

[kung fu fighter]

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014378]This is not correct. Peng is a Tai Ji word.

Would you say ground reaction force is a better term to discribe hua jing and An jing?

[chusauli]

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014404]

Would you say ground reaction force is a better term to discribe hua jing and An jing?

No. That is completely incorrect.

[shawchemical]

The fact is, those are completely irrelevant to the original analogy of flexibility and movement.




Mechanical resonance plays no role in body mechanics and efficiency of human performance.

Once again the analogy wasn't of flexibility and movement, it was about there being <cliche>many ways to skin a cat </cliche>

[kung fu fighter]

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014407]

No. That is completely incorrect.

How would you discribe the way force is generated in hua jing and An jing bio mechanically?

[chusauli]

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014409]

How would you discribe the way force is generated in hua jing and An jing bio mechanically?

I have not dodged your questions. I have completely answered them, but you have not comprehended my answers.

An Jing means you hide your obvious, make it subtle.

Hua Jing is using neutralization of energy. Where did I put the load? Where can I load so I don't overload to restrict or slow me? How much control do I need? It is about using just enough, not go overboard all out, all of the time.

[Hendrik]

Giving you lots of love is the best thing.




LOL @ six directional force vectors, mechanical resonance, and Fajing... welcome to the zone of the theoretical non-fighter (tm).

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
In WCK, one was taught to sense and Doing Mun Sau not Bai Jong, that is because In WCK, the WCner is suppose to ask and sense and observe and adapt to what is going on instead of throwing action or words out senseless. That is the key of Comes accept, Goes return...etc.
See, these are not Kiu Sau or Baijong stuffs. Different concept.
What were you asking and what did you sense when you ended up red faced and on your @ss. Your problem is not that you end up on your @ss but that for all your talk you could not flow not even like that of a beginning judo student when the contact that put you down. hendriks pancake theories are not equal to those of WCK.

originally posted by kung fu fighter
I am familar with these strategies, I guess What I am asking is how do you personnally apply them? LOL That is rich

[anerlich]

Giving you lots of love is the best thing.

OK, but leave all that hip humping stuff out of it. That would definitely NOT be the best thing. Ewww!

[Hendrik]

Send you lot of love.



What were you asking and what did you sense when you ended up red faced and on your @ss. Your problem is not that you end up on your @ss but that for all your talk you could not flow not even like that of a beginning judo student when the contact that put you down. hendriks pancake theories are not equal to those of WCK.

[Eric_H]

Let's not take this the wrong way, but really, you have to look at it from an observer's point of view... Yes, you have both SNT and SLT. And you have a similar TWC Entry technique, and you have amazingly similar forms to TWC like the ASLT, CK, and Jong. And you have the same Ying, Yi, Lei, Faht characters as Weng Chun, and similar 6.5 points and 18 Kiu Sao. You also have a computer generated photo of your Si Gung, and a school unwilling to show people your "secrets"...its no wonder why people get the impression that HFY is well, fishy...then you go and say, "Its our perogative to keep our secrets!" You create your karma with your actions. I am in no way attacking HFY now. Personally, I really like the summary of the Sup Ming Dim. I think it is quite well packaged.



Robert,

This photo/secrecy issue you seem to have is just another smokescreen so you don’t have to really answer Duende’s questions and comments. You’ve been bringing it up time and time again, so let’s put this to rest once and for all.

We’ve all been over the Hung Muhn history. If you still want to read more about it, Google is your best friend. I’m not going to waste time saying the same things over again. However, one point you are missing is there’s a big difference between secrecy and privacy. How about this, you tell all of us what your social security number is. Go on, go ahead. Unless, of course, you are being SECRETIVE about it. Or maybe, just maybe, things like your social security number are things you want to keep private. Same deal as some of the details of the HFY or TWC or any other kung fu lineages. Some people are just passing through. It is impossible to know if they are trustworthy or not. If you stand out on a street corner all day handing out pieces of paper with your bank account info on it, how long until someone takes all your money? Not long I'll bet. Maybe that’s why you had so many issues with some of your past Sifus. Lee Moy Shan and Moy Yat wouldn’t hand out things to you right away so you got mad and ran around telling everyone that they were greedy and talking sh!t about them for a long time. Then, you might understand why Randy Williams also has problems with you.

As for the photo thing, what does that have to do with you as an outsider? Since you're also the same person who copied our HFY's material for your own article without giving credit back to the source. The fact is you're a dishonest man, and lack character. That's why no one wants to share anything with you. Many genuine people have visited our HFY school. Even Sandman, THE MODERATOR OF THIS FORUM visited HQ and has seen the photo in person. The photo was the personal property of Nancy Sung which was given to our GM in the 1980’s, and even then it was very old and not in the best condition. Therefore students Matt Kwan and Mr. Yohan were requested by the MKF editor to touch up the photo and enhance the color so that it could be published in MKF. Once again, what does this have to do with is a character like you spreading false rumors, cutting down and insulting people? You've been doing this for so long. Is that good enough, or do you get some sort of pleasure out of being a gossip queen???

[anerlich]

However, one point you are missing is there’s a big difference between secrecy and privacy.

Not really. Dictionary.com:

se·cre·cy   /ˈsikrəsi/ Show Spelled[see-kruh-see] Show IPA
–noun,plural-cies for 2, 3.
1.the state or condition of being secret, hidden, or concealed: a meeting held in secrecy.
2.privacy; retirement; seclusion.
3.ability to keep a secret.
4.the habit or characteristic of being secretive; reticence.


pri·va·cy   /ˈpraɪvəsi; Brit. also ˈprɪvəsi/ Show Spelled[prahy-vuh-see; Brit. also priv-uh-see] Show IPA
–noun,plural-cies.
1.the state of being private; retirement or seclusion.
2.the state of being free from intrusion or disturbance in one's private life or affairs: the right to privacy.
3.secrecy.
4.Archaic. a private place.

A great deal of overlap IMO, and if there is a distinction your post did not explain it.

A bit pedantic I know, but I'm kinda p1ssed at all you guys (including Robert Chu) for dredging all this crap up again.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/2961175776_b341ca0fc5.jpg

[duende]

Not really. Dictionary.com:

se·cre·cy   /ˈsikrəsi/ Show Spelled[see-kruh-see] Show IPA
–noun,plural-cies for 2, 3.
1.the state or condition of being secret, hidden, or concealed: a meeting held in secrecy.
2.privacy; retirement; seclusion.
3.ability to keep a secret.
4.the habit or characteristic of being secretive; reticence.


pri·va·cy   /ˈpraɪvəsi; Brit. also ˈprɪvəsi/ Show Spelled[prahy-vuh-see; Brit. also priv-uh-see] Show IPA
–noun,plural-cies.
1.the state of being private; retirement or seclusion.
2.the state of being free from intrusion or disturbance in one's private life or affairs: the right to privacy.
3.secrecy.
4.Archaic. a private place.

A great deal of overlap IMO, and if there is a distinction your post did not explain it.

A bit pedantic I know, but I'm kinda p1ssed at all you guys (including Robert Chu) for dredging all this crap up again.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/2961175776_b341ca0fc5.jpg

LOL!!

Can't say I blame you.

For my part, I sincerely apologize to everyone here on the board.

In truth, I thought there was a chance in these recent dialogs, to open discussion and put some of these long-standing issues to bed.

It may seem over-optimistic, but heck... that's my nature I guess.


For anyone that's truly interested... I would like to answer some of Robert's statements here, and try my best to nurture positive conversation.


Don't take too much stock in what I know or don't know...you feel the need to discredit me, yet I have said nothing to disparage you. As a student, it is better that I take the attitude of knowing nothing, so I may receive teaching.

This is good advice for everyone. We should all empty our cups a bit more when sharing and discussing WCK with others.





I am not criticizing them at all. I agree 100% with them. And they are not that much different from TWC's 5 concepts or other WCK systems. I do not understand why you have to position it as such. In fact, all WCK works on those five ideas, regardless of what you call them.

For example, in Yip Man WCK, we speak of:

1) Chiu Mien Dui Ying
2) Bik Ma Yap Mun
3) Por Jung
4) Juie Ying
5) Wui San or Wui Jung Sien

WCK is WCK.



Glad to hear it.

However, what I'm trying to convey to you here is that how we express these concepts, via logic flow and consistent body karma though-out is where our differences lay.

So when you say we are all WCK. Yes, I agree with you. But I also understand our distinct differences, and moreover... see the importance of preserving and maintaining the integrity of the art I personally study (HFY).

I have witnessed you write numerous times about personal interpretation and expression in WCK. In the HFY system, there is no room for such things, as they inevitably lead to distortion and modifications of our HFYWC core principles.


"Any individual interpretations or attempts to combine the system with other styles will deviate from these concepts and, therefore, render the system ineffective."
Complete Wing Chun pg 88, Hung Seun Wing Chun Kuen section, discussing the importance of understanding the system concepts and principles.

Remember that one??

So whether you mean to or not. When you brush us off time and time again as being TWC (Which is of course a great and respected system of it's own), it is in fact highly insulting. Not because we have anything against TWC, but because it negates so much that is HFY.

I am not trying to put any other system down here. I come to this board to share and grow my own understandings. But I am compelled to clarify misunderstandings and misrepresentations when I see them.




Forgive me Alex, but perhaps you are reading something different. I completely respect GG and HFY. I fully expect him to have high knowledge since he has family training in the Fu Zhen Xiong system and his father is known in those circles.

Some of your HFY bretheren have displayed complete disrespect to me. I have been very patient. But I appreciate your sect's loyalty. I also do not look at these as personal attacks, these are just spirited discussions.


Yeah... I'm not into snide comments or inflammatory remarks from either side. I too believe that all of us here are not so different. People are people. We should all step back and just appreciate this great gift that we have all been exposed to, and not get caught up in silly internet egotism.




I see the rudeness, yelling, anger and swearing as a weak man's imitation of strength. Also, in training martial arts, you are given a responsibility. Shouldn't it reflect you are mature enough to handle that responsibility? I don't want to have to quote Spiderman to you...


Agreed,

And I know Spiderman very well too, although I was more of a Green Lantern space freak. :D



Let's not take this the wrong way, but really, you have to look at it from an observer's point of view... Yes, you have both SNT and SLT. And you have a similar TWC Entry technique, and you have amazingly similar forms to TWC like the ASLT, CK, and Jong. And you have the same Ying, Yi, Lei, Faht characters as Weng Chun, and similar 6.5 points and 18 Kiu Sao. You also have a computer generated photo of your Si Gung, and a school unwilling to show people your "secrets"...its no wonder why people get the impression that HFY is well, fishy...then you go and say, "Its our perogative to keep our secrets!" You create your karma with your actions. I am in no way attacking HFY now. Personally, I really like the summary of the Sup Ming Dim. I think it is quite well packaged.



First off, let's not confuse Chi Sim's Tin Yan Dei expression or Kiu Sau understandings for HFY's. They are not the same.

Chi Sim's TYD is derrived from Animal Kung Fu. Just look at their body mechanics, and you'll see leaning postures, bending over, and jumping around. Nothing against them, but this all goes against the WC principles of economy of motion and self-centerline.

HFY TYD is about power generation, body alignment, targeting, leverage, and gravity control WITHIN the WCK core principles and concepts. HFY and Chi Sim TYD may overlap in some ways on a philosophical level, but in actual physical expression.. They are very different.


In regards to Kiu Sau.. again, their 18-point Kiu Sau such as "cat washes face" uses classical Animal Kung Fu physical expression. Bending and dropping down, extending limbs, 3-gate side/body etc... Which are complete no no's in HFY as they exemplify what we call long arm/short arm. Instead, our HFY Sei Buhn Dim Kiu Sau again reflects WCK core concepts and principles, and is an integral to our Chi Sau. Our Kiu Sau technology, has it's own facings, body karma, and timeframe usages that are quite different than Tan Bong Fook Chi Sau.

As for Sup Ming Dim. It is not a package at all. It is a simple refined outline of our HFYWCK reference points. Simplicity is just another example of "economy of motion". A trait we should all strive for both inside and outside of our Kung Fu. Btw... did you notice the logic flow once again?

In truth, Sup Ming Dim is only the very beginning of understanding HFY structural energy.

As for fishy things and secrets... We have an open door. Everyone is invited to come visit. We do not do video's and such online, because we do not feel that they adequately teach KF and instead lead to personal interpretations and distortions of knowledge. Which as I explained earlier, is against our fundamental beliefs.

That's all there is to it.




Alex, 6 vector forces is an old, old term. You can see them in old legitimate martial arts like Zi Men, Tai Zu, Shaolin, etc. This is nothing new. What's new are your terms.


Let's not get too caught up in terms. As this is where our some of our misconnect lie.

I never questioned 6 vector forces legitimacy. Only offered my own understanding on the subject matter.

Regardless, our understanding of energy is also nothing new. Unless you consider 5 elements concepts as being new. But as you are an acupuncturist.. I highly doubt it. :)




What is a true system, what is a false system? A system is just a body of knowledge to take you from ignorance to understanding. There is a tendency to a lot of HFYisms or jargon.


When I refer to system, I am using it the manner of say the nervous system, or other fractals. A true system is composed of many many parts. But each part in itself, reflects the whole. This is the nature of organicism. Logic flow throughout is obviously an inherent attribute.

I personally believe man kinds greatest achievements have this organic quality.

This is what "everlasting springtime" means to me. No matter where you look... be it inside or outside the art of WCK. You will always find new ways to apply what we have learned in WCK.

That's it for me...

Peace out.

[kung fu fighter]

thanks for the reply Robert,


An Jing means you hide your obvious, make it subtle.

how do you hide your obvious and make it subtle?

[Hendrik]

Since I started this topic, I suggest to focus on this topic instead doing personal attack or promoting one's lineage ....ect.

Start your own topic if you like to share you story or promote/ advertise your style's superiority /legitimate...etc which got nothing to do with this topic of structure.

[Hendrik]

thanks for the reply Robert,



how do you hide your obvious and make it subtle?



KFF,

I have been following your posts of questions for a while. My suggestion is you go Baisi with some one who knows these stuffs.

you need the true basic training or else you will not be able to comprehend what is going on.


I keep telling you, the so called link to ground or rooting.. are just a smaller smaller elements in the real deal. Without the basic training, dont even get near to understand Ming Jing, An Jing, Hua JIng, fajing.... because it involve experience of how to use one's mind, body,....etc.

Look at it just a minute ago you are asking all the questions about hip. and then you make claim on you can do Hua jing too. and then you like to know if grounding /rooting is a better description to Hua Jing....etc. Read your posts.

from the way you ask question, it indicates you are trying to make equvalen everything here to what you think you know. Well, the fact is you cant do that because these are things you dont have experience and dont know.

How can Robert and me helping you if you keep on this type of behaviour of not accepting what you dont know but merry go round on trying to think grounding is hua jing.....etc which is totally off the mark?

and also, how can you learn these stuffs over eternet? you cant. you simply need a sifu who know what it is. and also you might need to pay big money for it if you want it. As both Robert and me have done both on Baisi and pay big money for it.

These are reality you might not like. but you are wasting time in the previous few posts. also no one is obligate to teach you since it is already an act of kindness trying to help you. not to tell you it is impossible for your to learn things this way, how many years have you trying to get information from me about the Yik Kam snake technology...etc? take a look at your previous post, those who knows what I am talking about know I have told you a great deal in details but you still dont get it. why? because you dont have the proper basic in this field. and blocking yourself out with your own logic.

But you got to know what is the proper way to return the kindness. that is go learn with a true sifu. otherwise both Robert and I are wasting our time trying to help you.

[JPinAZ]

Since I started this topic, I suggest to focus on this topic instead doing personal attack or promoting one's lineage ....ect.

Start your own topic if you like to share you story or promote/ advertise your style's superiority /legitimate...etc which got nothing to do with this topic of structure.

Actually, Alex's post talks about structure throughout! Things like Tin Yan Dei and sup ming dim are all about structure! As did many other posts you wouldn't comment on. Maybe you only want to discuss with a select few people, and ignore the rest, which is pretty evident thru this thread? Perhaps you just don't like views that differ from your own? I think you shouldn't have such thin skin for a 'kung fu man'.
Maybe it would be better if you just start your own forum and only allow access to those you deem worthy of discussion. Or allow just you alone on that forum so your views are never questioned, would that work for you? ;)

[chusauli]

LOL!!

Can't say I blame you.

For my part, I sincerely apologize to everyone here on the board.

In truth, I thought there was a chance in these recent dialogs, to open discussion and put some of these long-standing issues to bed.

It may seem over-optimistic, but heck... that's my nature I guess.


For anyone that's truly interested... I would like to answer some of Robert's statements here, and try my best to nurture positive conversation.

I think there is a positive discussion. I admire you, Alex. You have shared more insights rather than attacking. I respect you highly.

I also apologize to the board here, if this doesn't interest you, ignore it.




This is good advice for everyone. We should all empty our cups a bit more when sharing and discussing WCK with others.

Amen.



Glad to hear it.

However, what I'm trying to convey to you here is that how we express these concepts, via logic flow and consistent body karma though-out is where our differences lay.

So when you say we are all WCK. Yes, I agree with you. But I also understand our distinct differences, and moreover... see the importance of preserving and maintaining the integrity of the art I personally study (HFY).

I have witnessed you write numerous times about personal interpretation and expression in WCK. In the HFY system, there is no room for such things, as they inevitably lead to distortion and modifications of our HFYWC core principles.

Everyone has a personal interpretation, regardless of system. You may have the same root, but each of you sees things differently. For example, Chan only has one truth, but so many interpretations. Men's minds are fast or slow, sudden or gradual.

You do that to pass on your legacy, that is an important job for you and the HFY family.



"Any individual interpretations or attempts to combine the system with other styles will deviate from these concepts and, therefore, render the system ineffective."
Complete Wing Chun pg 88, Hung Seun Wing Chun Kuen section, discussing the importance of understanding the system concepts and principles.

Remember that one??

Sure, but I also know this - in the classical arts, one portion of the art contains the information of the whole organism. For example, Ba Gua can be embodied in the single palm change. Or Xing Yi's Pi Quan can represent all five fists in a way. A "true" teaching has all of it in one part.


So whether you mean to or not. When you brush us off time and time again as being TWC (Which is of course a great and respected system of it's own), it is in fact highly insulting. Not because we have anything against TWC, but because it negates so much that is HFY.

I am not trying to put any other system down here. I come to this board to share and grow my own understandings. But I am compelled to clarify misunderstandings and misrepresentations when I see them.

Fine, but this is a WCK discussion board, not a HFY discussion board.

I did not say you were TWC, but reminded me of it. You are HFY, and the closest thing it reminds me of is TWC. It should not be an insult, TWC is a great art, a beautiful form of WCK. You cannot deny there are great similarities. And of course, you have differences.



Yeah... I'm not into snide comments or inflammatory remarks from either side. I too believe that all of us here are not so different. People are people. We should all step back and just appreciate this great gift that we have all been exposed to, and not get caught up in silly internet egotism.

Good. All I have done is speak with you openly. I'm sure if you took the time to speak with me in person or on the phone, you know I am not unreasonable.



Agreed,

And I know Spiderman very well too, although I was more of a Green Lantern space freak. :D

I like Hal Jordan and the GL Corps as well! :)




First off, let's not confuse Chi Sim's Tin Yan Dei expression or Kiu Sau understandings for HFY's. They are not the same.

Chi Sim's TYD is derrived from Animal Kung Fu. Just look at their body mechanics, and you'll see leaning postures, bending over, and jumping around. Nothing against them, but this all goes against the WC principles of economy of motion and self-centerline.

HFY TYD is about power generation, body alignment, targeting, leverage, and gravity control WITHIN the WCK core principles and concepts. HFY and Chi Sim TYD may overlap in some ways on a philosophical level, but in actual physical expression.. They are very different.


In regards to Kiu Sau.. again, their 18-point Kiu Sau such as "cat washes face" uses classical Animal Kung Fu physical expression. Bending and dropping down, extending limbs, 3-gate side/body etc... Which are complete no no's in HFY as they exemplify what we call long arm/short arm. Instead, our HFY Sei Buhn Dim Kiu Sau again reflects WCK core concepts and principles, and is an integral to our Chi Sau. Our Kiu Sau technology, has it's own facings, body karma, and timeframe usages that are quite different than Tan Bong Fook Chi Sau.

I will let the Weng Chun people speak for themselves.


As for Sup Ming Dim. It is not a package at all. It is a simple refined outline of our HFYWCK reference points. Simplicity is just another example of "economy of motion". A trait we should all strive for both inside and outside of our Kung Fu. Btw... did you notice the logic flow once again?

In truth, Sup Ming Dim is only the very beginning of understanding HFY structural energy.

Pamela Anderson is a nice package. So is Nicole Scherzinger. Get it? Maybe you're not from NYC... LOL!


As for fishy things and secrets... We have an open door. Everyone is invited to come visit. We do not do video's and such online, because we do not feel that they adequately teach KF and instead lead to personal interpretations and distortions of knowledge. Which as I explained earlier, is against our fundamental beliefs.

That's all there is to it.

Yes, "Hou Chuen San Sao" and all that - it can be interpreted as overly secretive. Again, being like this, you perpetuate part of your own karma. You have to take this as your responsibility.




Let's not get too caught up in terms. As this is where our some of our misconnect lie.

I never questioned 6 vector forces legitimacy. Only offered my own understanding on the subject matter.

Regardless, our understanding of energy is also nothing new. Unless you consider 5 elements concepts as being new. But as you are an acupuncturist.. I highly doubt it. :)

Ok.




When I refer to system, I am using it the manner of say the nervous system, or other fractals. A true system is composed of many many parts. But each part in itself, reflects the whole. This is the nature of organicism. Logic flow throughout is obviously an inherent attribute.

I personally believe man kinds greatest achievements have this organic quality.

This is what "everlasting springtime" means to me. No matter where you look... be it inside or outside the art of WCK. You will always find new ways to apply what we have learned in WCK.

That's it for me...

Peace out.


We have the same idea for "Praise of Spring", or "Perpetual Spring". If we do not have this, we have not attained.

[chusauli]

thanks for the reply Robert,



how do you hide your obvious and make it subtle?

<Smack!>

The sound of one hand clapping ...

Any one here want to take a stab at it and help KFF?

Alex?

Anyone else?

[CFT]

<Smack!>

The sound of one hand clapping ...

Any one here want to take a stab at it and help KFF?

Alex?

Anyone else?Well, I probably don't have the right idea of "An Jing", but for me, taking something obvious and making it suble as far as martial arts practice is concerned is: start your practice with large movements/obvious force and then through practice and refinement make the motions smaller to achieve the same effect.

I say "motions" but really this is a combination of movement, force (jing), range, timing. Going from "more than enough" to "just enough" to achieve the desired effect.

[kung fu fighter]

for me, taking something obvious and making it suble as far as martial arts practice is concerned is: start your practice with large movements/obvious force and then through practice and refinement make the motions smaller to achieve the same effect.

I say "motions" but really this is a combination of movement, force (jing), range, timing. Going from "more than enough" to "just enough" to achieve the desired effect.

I agree! that's also what I assumed An jing is! Small movement is better than big movement, no movement is better than small movement:)

[YungChun]

Not only conservation of motion and energy but getting the opponent into a position where he is most vulnerable helps.. :)

[Hendrik]

I agree! that's also what I assumed An jing is! Small movement is better than big movement, no movement is better than small movement:)


This is the slogan we all learn isnt it?

However, those are just some ideas and saying,

what is the process? what is the mechanism? how to do it? are the bottom line.

What is An Jing? What is Hua Jing? For me, it is beyong the saying above. it is well define. and the so called "small movement" is just a by product of it not the handling key or handle. Thus, if one think they do a small movement will arive at An Jing, that could be miss leading.

it doesnt work that way.


For me,
The following is from Emei 12 Zhuang. and An Jing is described with details.

大小开合，唯妙于心。
如如不动，是真阴阳，
宝斯不动，发用乃常。
不动动生，意动神到，开合降升。
开合一如，结丹在兹。
彬彬克敌，分寸之中。
轻若鸿毛，重逾泰山，
用中无形，体用一焉。

[duende]

<Smack!>

The sound of one hand clapping ...

Any one here want to take a stab at it and help KFF?

Alex?

Anyone else?



It sounds like the end goal here is to get past or compromise an opponents structure without them knowing it.

Little moves can be used to nuetralize oncoming energy, by taking away leverage. Not moving at all, and allowing opponents movements to pass by, can influence resulting angles and create positional advantage.

I understand why Hendrik references snake energy in these regard.

Fwiw, I've seen this technology not only in WC, but Five Family Ancestor Kung Fu and others as well.

However, comparing this technology and making references to Bai Jong is not accurate IMO. It's like comparing orange's slices to it's seeds. Both are part of the same fruit, but do not serve the same immediate purpose.

[kung fu fighter]

For me, The following is from Emei 12 Zhuang. and An Jing is described with details.

大小开合，唯妙于心。
如如不动，是真阴阳，
宝斯不动，发用乃常。
不动动生，意动神到，开合降升。
开合一如，结丹在兹。
彬彬克敌，分寸之中。
轻若鸿毛，重逾泰山，
用中无形，体用一焉。

Hendrik, perhaps you can translate this into english for us non chinese speaking people:)

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, perhaps you can translate this into english for us non chinese speaking people:)



I am waiting for the Masters here to translate and explain it.

[m1k3]

I am waiting for the Masters here to translate and explain it.

Here ya go. Chinese isn't my strong suit so I'm sure someone can clean this up a little.

Size of the open and close, Wei Miao in mind.
Such as fixed, is the true yin and yang,
Po Si fixed, hair is often used.
Fixed motional, conative God that open and close uplift.
One such open, end Dan in mind.
Bin-bin beat the opposition, measured into.
If a feather light, weighing more than Mount Tai,
with the invisible, body with a Yan.

:confused::eek::confused: