Wing Chun "defeats" MMA

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqh-W5-E1rU

[Dragonzbane76]

lol just lol.

[Frost]

nice double leg, his mistake was not hitting the back of the head or elbowing the spine as he took him down :)

[Knifefighter]

nice double leg, his mistake was not hitting the back of the head or elbowing the spine as he took him down :)

He could have, but he didn't want to paralyze him. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't get it...I don't have sound so what did I miss?

[m1k3]

The sambo guy didn't even give the chunner enough time to lay on the mat and count the lights.:)

I bet the chunner had mat burns on his a$$ also.

[mjw]

Gotta have some level of ground game to do MMA done and done
Any of his other fights anywhere? Since they were hyping him up and he has or had a decent record......

[m1k3]

I don't get it...I don't have sound so what did I miss?

It was just KF mocking the to d34dly to train elbow to the spine takedown defense.

[hunt1]

Another perfect example of 2 things. Some one that thinks their sifu's rep means what he is learning is effective and having no clue about body mechanics,stiff locked body/waiste area nonsense. Won't even talk about bringing a pocket knife to a gunfight.

[YungChun]

What VT move did he lead with the -- "Take me I'm yours" entry technique?

Sure looked like a setup...:rolleyes:

[SoCo KungFu]

nice double leg, his mistake was not hitting the back of the head or elbowing the spine as he took him down :)

what about eye gouging or biting of the larynx? I thought those were supposed to be easy to do in grappling?

[t_niehoff]

If only he had learned the infamous "judo chop" to prevent the takedown.

[Knifefighter]

What VT move did he lead with the -- "Take me I'm yours" entry technique?

Sure looked like a setup...:rolleyes:

Actually, he just did what most people do in a somewhat unfamiliar, pressure-filled situation. He reverted to his training. So did the grappler. It just happened that his training was tailor made to be set up for the takedown.

[YungChun]

Actually, he just did what most people do in a somewhat unfamiliar, pressure-filled situation. He reverted to his training. So did the grappler. It just happened that his training was tailor made to be set up for the takedown.

Okay well not all VT trains to charge into clinch range and/or jump into the arms of the opponent--to be carried over the threshold like a new bride. :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay well not all VT trains to charge into clinch range

I thought that IS what most WC does?

[YungChun]

I thought that IS what most WC does?

Are you serious?

I don't know what "most VT does" but this goes against VT basics, the VT core as I know it...

[m1k3]

I thought that IS what most WC does?

Oh dear god no! Not another attached vs unattached 30 page sh1tstorm!:eek:


Shame on you sanjuro_ronin!:D

[Knifefighter]

Okay well not all VT trains to charge into clinch range and/or jump into the arms of the opponent--to be carried over the threshold like a new bride. :eek:

Charge in, wait, or bridge... doesn't matter. Without grappling knowledge, forward intent means, he's going down. This has been shown time after time after time.

[YungChun]

Charge in, wait, or bridge... doesn't matter. Without grappling knowledge, forward intent means, he's going down. This has been shown time after time after time.

No it doesn't really have to mean anything... Do the art without major flubs and get taken down, fine, jump into his arms and I have a little trouble with that.

I don't know what you mean by forward intent.. In any case what he did--charge in--just makes it that much easier for the grappler..

Personally, I think the guy knew his goose was cooked (even if only sub-consciously/or not) and did that move so he could easily tap out...

[t_niehoff]

Okay well not all VT trains to charge into clinch range and/or jump into the arms of the opponent--to be carried over the threshold like a new bride. :eek:

The simple fact is that if you don't train (spar) against it you won't be able to deal with it.

[YungChun]

The simple fact is that if you don't train (spar) against it you won't be able to deal with it.

Don't start.

[Knifefighter]

No it doesn't really have to mean anything... Do the art without major flubs and get taken down, fine, jump into his arms and I have a little trouble with that.

I don't know what you mean by forward intent.. In any case what he did--charge in--just makes it that much easier for the grappler..

Personally, I think the guy knew his goose was cooked (even if only sub-consciously/or not) and did that move so he could easily tap out...

He did what 99% of TMA guys did back then... he put his faith in his art. Like most TMA practitioners at the time, he thought he could simply go in and throw his techniques at his opponent (that's pretty much what he would have learned in his forms, doing chi sao, and working the Mook Jong). The problem was, the opponent was not where he thought he would be when he went to use his techniques and offered a completely different skill set than anything he would have encountered in WC.

[kung fu fighter]

If only he had learned the infamous "judo chop" to prevent the takedown.

LOL, you beat me to it, I couldn't have said it better. Ha! Ha! Ha!

[Wayfaring]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqh-W5-E1rU

Yeah, the WC guy just lost because it was a sporting match with rules. He probably doesn't train for sporting events. Now if this had been a R3@L STR33T F1GHT complete with homeys, hookers, asphalt parking lots, hypodermic needles and broken glass, then the outcome would have been much, much different, I'm telling you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh dear god no! Not another attached vs unattached 30 page sh1tstorm!:eek:


Shame on you sanjuro_ronin!:D

BBWWAAAHHH !!!!
http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/129077057143618775.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you serious?

I don't know what "most VT does" but this goes against VT basics, the VT core as I know it...

I was being semi-serious, if WC is as some contend, an attached method of fighting then, yes, I can see them "charging into clinch range".

[t_niehoff]

I was being semi-serious, if WC is as some contend, an attached method of fighting then, yes, I can see them "charging into clinch range".

Look at how many who don't think it is attached fighting charge in with chain punches -- which almost invariably ends in a tight body-to-body clinch.

And, on a different note -- did you see the circle jerk drill the WCK guys was doing at the beginning of the clip? That is a perfect example of training to fail. If you are doing that drill, you too are training to fail. If you teach your students to do that drill, you are training them to fail.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Look at how many who don't think it is attached fighting charge in with chain punches -- which almost invariably ends in a tight body-to-body clinch.

And, on a different note -- did you see the circle jerk drill the WCK guys was doing at the beginning of the clip? That is a perfect example of training to fail. If you are doing that drill, you too are training to fail. If you teach your students to do that drill, you are training them to fail.

The fact that they showed THAT as a highlight of his training speaks volumes !

[Ultimatewingchun]

This thread is somehow supposed to reinstate the delusional notion that wing chun is "attached fighting"....by showing a vid of a wing chun guy charging in and getting thrashed in the UFC....and then by pointing to those you tube vids where we see a lot of WT guys charging forward with chain punches....and/or guys from other lineages who do similar things.

LOFL

[t_niehoff]

This thread is somehow supposed to reinstate the delusional notion that wing chun is "attached fighting"....by showing a vid of a wing chun guy charging in and getting thrashed in the UFC....and then by pointing to those you tube vids where we see a lot of WT guys charging forward with chain punches....and/or guys from other lineages who do similar things.

LOFL

No, Victor, you don't "get it", and I seriously doubt that you ever will.

[m1k3]

I knew it. I effing knew it.

I warned y'all that this was going to happen. Way to go Skippy_effing_Ronin.


(goes into basement with popcorn and vodka to ride out the sh1tstorm)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I knew it. I effing knew it.

I warned y'all that this was going to happen. Way to go Skippy_effing_Ronin.


(goes into basement with popcorn and vodka to ride out the sh1tstorm)

http://www.jesseshunting.com/images/motivational_mr_t_mr_dangles.jpg

[Ultimatewingchun]

And yes, sanjuro ronin - "May God have mercy on your soul." ;) :eek: :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

And yes, sanjuro ronin - "May God have mercy on your soul." ;) :eek: :D

http://www.naughtyfake.com/pics/demotivational-poster/0902/camel-toe-amp-white-panties-demotivational-poster-1233650599.jpg

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now speaking of getting attached...OMG !!!! I'm falling in love.:D

[m1k3]

No way are you ducking this Roninsan. You were the one who changed this from WC vs MMA LOL to WC is an attached fighting style.


I was being semi-serious, if WC is as some contend, an attached method of fighting then, yes, I can see them "charging into clinch range".

As Victor said
And yes, sanjuro ronin - "May God have mercy on your soul."

You and only you have opened the door to all that will follow.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Get "out of" something?

Now tell the truth, m1k1, after seeing what sanjuro last posted - isn't there something you'd rather "get into" ??? :cool:

[m1k3]

ROFL.

Thread over.

[taai gihk yahn]

how come every video clip of a WC guy getting owned by an MMA guy always an example of bad WC?

why is every video clip of a WC guy winning against an MMA guy not an example of how WC is "supposed" to be?

why is that every time Snuffaluffugus shows up, Big Bird always just happened to wander off a moment before?

[taojkd]

how come every video clip of a WC guy getting owned by an MMA guy always an example of bad WC?

Cause it cant be good WC if it failed so epically.



why is every video clip of a WC guy winning against an MMA guy not an example of how WC is "supposed" to be?

Which exists where? Oh yeah, that film is located in the same library as the location of Jimmy Hoffa, Area 51 crash photos, and proof that Big Foot exists.


why is that every time Snuffaluffugus shows up, Big Bird always just happened to wander off a moment before?

Snuffaluffugus has always followed Big Bird, much like WC chasing the dream of "chi sau-ing" BJ Penn into a tapout/submission.

[SAAMAG]

LOL. I was intrigued with the subject title thinking that perhaps someone finally UNDERSTOOD MMA and how wing chun would work and not work in that environment.

I guess not. It looked like he just walked up to the guy and said here ya go!

Didn't have a clue about basic escapes on the ground, which you'd think he would have focused on given that he's going up against a grappler. Who knew.

[Knifefighter]

LOL. I was intrigued with the subject title thinking that perhaps someone finally UNDERSTOOD MMA and how wing chun would work and not work in that environment.

I guess not. It looked like he just walked up to the guy and said here ya go!

Didn't have a clue about basic escapes on the ground, which you'd think he would have focused on given that he's going up against a grappler. Who knew.

That was 11 years ago. Most of the TMA guys had been brainwashed by their instructors into thinking they had nothing to worry about because they would destroy the guy before he had a chance to take him down. Those guys were all over the place back then.

[SAAMAG]

I'd be interested in seeing who the other 14 guys were that he beat.

[shawchemical]

Charge in, wait, or bridge... doesn't matter. Without grappling knowledge, forward intent means, he's going down. This has been shown time after time after time.

if you only knew how stupid you sound.

[Niersun]

Crazy to charge in like that, no ability to interrupt his movement (if required) if you wildly charge in.

What is this post supposed to prove.

WC isnt for a fight bounded by rules, but nevertheless traditional training methods (as the ones shown early in the clip) of people throwing half hearted punches and kicks just isnt "competition training" worthy.

If you wanna use WC in MMA, then you gotta train against MMA fighters where the sparring punches, kicks and takedowns are at 100% and unexpected.

To end it, the way you train is the way you play. If you train against half hearted attacks, your going to get overwhelmed by the person with great intensity and that person may have no formal training whatsoever.

If you train to charge in, then expect to get knocked out by a counter or in that instance grappled and taken down.

[Niersun]

Just to add. A proficient WC fighter isnt unbeatable on the street or in the ring just like every other style. So why hate???

Some people just have good genetics, tall, wide, fast, etc that can take hits and apply certain techniques better than others.

[YungChun]

I was being semi-serious, if WC is as some contend, an attached method of fighting then, yes, I can see them "charging into clinch range".

"Charging in" is the very antithesis of VT movement.. VT takes great pains not to over commit, over extend or build up lots of momentum.. (normally)

Note that if your opponent is for some reason unready, stunned, off balance, running away, etc, then a charge may be okay...

Any stand-up (upright specialist) fighter from any "functional" style understands why you don't just charge in. It's no different for Muay Thai, Western Boxing, etc.. But especially important when dealing with a grappler..

IMO this guy WANTED to get submitted...he gave himself to the opponent in hopes of avoiding a long stay in the hospital..perhaps not consciously but on a subconscious level..

[YungChun]

And, on a different note -- did you see the circle jerk drill the WCK guys was doing at the beginning of the clip? That is a perfect example of training to fail. If you are doing that drill, you too are training to fail. If you teach your students to do that drill, you are training them to fail.

Circle jerk!! LOL

Completely agree and yet..

Isn't

1. Duncan supposed to have been one of the Chun fighters?

2. This still trained by them?

Totally delusional training methods.. Talk about "dead patterns".

I love how they all gear up for no contact.. LOL

[YungChun]

I recall a thread a while back about Carlson Gracie and Kwok...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A

Who's smoking what?

[Frost]

what about eye gouging or biting of the larynx? I thought those were supposed to be easy to do in grappling?

i think they are illegal not to mention over kill, just knocking him out with a back of the head shot would have been sufficent to show him the error o his ways :)

[Frost]

I recall a thread a while back about Carlson Gracie and Kwok...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A

Who's smoking what?

carlson was into making money nothing wrong with that, and he was hardly going to say it sucked whilst making money off them at seminars........BUT
His early guys never did anything but BJJ and thai and they left him beacuse of differences over training and management (sperry Nogs, Bustamonte and the rest) , as for his later guys don't know if they did wing chun or not but i can't think of any of his newer fight team guys who have done well at all so take that for what its worth

[YungChun]

carlson was into making money nothing wrong with that, and he was hardly going to say it sucked whilst making money off them at seminars........BUT
His early guys never did anything but BJJ and thai and they left him beacuse of differences over training and management (sperry Nogs, Bustamonte and the rest) , as for his later guys don't know if they did wing chun or not but i can't think of any of his newer fight team guys who have done well at all so take that for what its worth

Just wondering what the deal was.. I take none of that "stuff" seriously..

[Frost]

Just wondering what the deal was.. I take none of that "stuff" seriously..

to be honest once the top team guys left carlson he needed to make money somewhere and seminars with samual helped him do this

[Hardwork108]

"Charging in" is the very antithesis of VT movement.. VT takes great pains not to over commit, over extend or build up lots of momentum.. (normally)

Note that if your opponent is for some reason unready, stunned, off balance, running away, etc, then a charge may be okay...

Any stand-up (upright specialist) fighter from any "functional" style understands why you don't just charge in. It's no different for Muay Thai, Western Boxing, etc.. But especially important when dealing with a grappler...
Agreed 100%. I was never taught to charge in except when one really needed to close distance, for whatever reason (to finish a weak or injured opponent, etc.)

I was told to stay "relaxed", wait and react. Simple and logical strategy, but not for our friend in the video......

[bennyvt]

so a guy that hasn't fought having a go at someone who has, be that really badly. Sounds like a theoretical non fighter commenting on something he hasn't done. Why are you continuing to put up there stupid video's. And you know how you have a go at people that haven't fought teaching other people and saying that what they do is the best, didn't you learn off robert chu. What fights has he been in when they weren't scrubs. Has he tested it against other ma or is he teaching an untested art to people that are trying to apply it in fights. You seen to forget that if you want a certain standard ie fights against good guys then why is your teacher the exception.

[YungChun]

Insert "How to play Chess" -- Standard Counterpoint #3 :eek::cool::D

[t_niehoff]

so a guy that hasn't fought


What do you mean I haven't fought? I fight every single time I train. I train to fight by fighting.



having a go at someone who has, be that really badly.


You learn through mistakes, through failure -- both your own and others (if you are smart -- which doesn't seem to apply to you).



Sounds like a theoretical non fighter commenting on something he hasn't done. Why are you continuing to put up there stupid video's. And you know how you have a go at people that haven't fought teaching other people and saying that what they do is the best,


It if very difficult to understand what you are writing.

Why do I put up these videos? Because they are instructional. They tell us something. If you are too stupid to see it or too caught up in your fantasy to see it, I can't help that.



didn't you learn off robert chu. What fights has he been in when they weren't scrubs. Has he tested it against other ma or is he teaching an untested art to people that are trying to apply it in fights. You seen to forget that if you want a certain standard ie fights against good guys then why is your teacher the exception.

And, as I told you, Robert told me that while he could teach me the method and the skills, that he couldn't teach me to apply my WCK, that he couldn't teach me to fight with WCK -- he told me to go out and find good fighters to train with and to let application be my sifu. He told the same thing to all of us (Dave, Dzu, Alan, etc.). Did you miss that point?

Or, are you just too stupid to appreciate its significance?

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Charging in" is the very antithesis of VT movement.. VT takes great pains not to over commit, over extend or build up lots of momentum.. (normally)

Note that if your opponent is for some reason unready, stunned, off balance, running away, etc, then a charge may be okay...

Any stand-up (upright specialist) fighter from any "functional" style understands why you don't just charge in. It's no different for Muay Thai, Western Boxing, etc.. But especially important when dealing with a grappler..

IMO this guy WANTED to get submitted...he gave himself to the opponent in hopes of avoiding a long stay in the hospital..perhaps not consciously but on a subconscious level..

Hence "charging" in quotation marks.
There is nothing wrong with charging per say, if it is controlled aggression and not half-assed.
Invading and controlling the opponents space is NOT a bad thing.

[bennyvt]

sorry for my stupidity, so you agree that robert by your standard is a theoretical non fighter then. And because you train hard with good guys that is now fighting. Ok man, you say i live in fantasy. Well ok show up some video of you 'fighting' with these good guys as you seen to demand of others. And at no point have i even talked about the video as i have not seen it.

[t_niehoff]

sorry for my stupidity,


If you're sorry, try to do something about it.



so you agree that robert by your standard is a theoretical non fighter then.


No, because a theoretical nonfighter uses theory -- this is how I believe you should to use your WCK (like Chung's judo chop) -- to teach "application". As I told you, Robert didn't do that with me.



And because you train hard with good guys that is now fighting.


I am saying that if you train like a fighter (which is what good fighters do), that will necessarily involve fighting since you get better at any skill (fighting) only by and through practicing that skill (fighting). How do you get better at swimming? By swimming. If you regularly swim, are you a swimmer? Can you be a swimmer without taking part in competitive swim meets?



Ok man, you say i live in fantasy. Well ok show up some video of you 'fighting' with these good guys as you seen to demand of others. And at no point have i even talked about the video as i have not seen it.

I don't demand anything of others. They can do whatever the hell they want. I don't care. They don't have to post videos (in fact, I wish they wouldn't) but if they do, then it is fair game to comment on.

[SavvySavage]

Knifefighter,

Dan Hardy's march against GSP looked very similar except
GSP couldn't submit him. Every round Dan Hardy was taken down instantly and remained there for the whole round. Dan Hardy IS an mma guy. Are you going to now disparage mma like you do wing chun or was that an example of "bad" mma?

[SavvySavage]

Personally I don't care what you say about wing chun. Much of what you say I believe to be true.

I just want to see if you can see past your mma bias and apply your logic to mma fighters.

[TenTigers]

what is this, "Non-fighters use "theory" crap? Everytime someone says theory, people jump on him and shout,"Non-fighter!" and they immediately put their fingers in their ears,"La-La I can't hear you! Non-Fighter!"
Having an understanding of your system's theories and concepts doesn't make one a non-fighter, it allows them to understand how to use their art correctly, rather than simply having a skin and hair understanding.
it reminds me of Chris Rock's line about books being kryptonite.

[Knifefighter]

I recall a thread a while back about Carlson Gracie and Kwok...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A

Who's smoking what?

Yeah... Who's smoking what?

2:01- Is that "charging in" or is it "not to over committing, over extending or building up lots of momentum"?

Whatever you want to call that, that will pretty much have the same effect of setting you up to get taken down.

[t_niehoff]

what is this, "Non-fighters use "theory" crap? Everytime someone says theory, people jump on him and shout,"Non-fighter!" and they immediately put their fingers in their ears,"La-La I can't hear you! Non-Fighter!"
Having an understanding of your system's theories and concepts doesn't make one a non-fighter, it allows them to understand how to use their art correctly, rather than simply having a skin and hair understanding.
it reminds me of Chris Rock's line about books being kryptonite.

No, it doesn't -- theory, concepts, etc. don't permit you to understand how to use your art "correctly". In fact, it works just the opposite. Understanding comes from skill, not the other way round.

When you learn the concepts and theories of people who can't do something well or at all, what are you learning?

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter,

Dan Hardy's march against GSP looked very similar except
GSP couldn't submit him. Every round Dan Hardy was taken down instantly and remained there for the whole round. Dan Hardy IS an mma guy. Are you going to now disparage mma like you do wing chun or was that an example of "bad" mma?

I didn't see that particular fight. However, if Hardy's goal was not to get taken down and he was constantly moving forward, then, yes, that would have been a very bad strategy.

[TenTigers]

No, it doesn't -- theory, concepts, etc. don't permit you to understand how to use your art "correctly". In fact, it works just the opposite. Understanding comes from skill, not the other way round.

When you learn the concepts and theories of people who can't do something well or at all, what are you learning?

Understand this: there is a WORLD of difference between concepts and theory without experience, and concepts and theory with experience-which will lead to greater understanding and ability. This needs to be mentioned.
You need to differentiate between the two.
Otherwise, the conversation is just childish bickering and name-calling.
Which, for the most part, this and many threads are.

[Frost]

What do you mean I haven't fought? I fight every single time I train. I train to fight by fighting.


I agree with a lot of what you say but I’m afraid this is incorrect, In training you spar, you might even spar very hard/full contact but this is not the same as fighting. Fighting is something different it’s going up against someone who is looking to do you real harm, not be your training partner. In a fight if you don't tap or make a mistake you get knocked out, things get broken you get damaged on purpose.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with a lot of what you say but I’m afraid this is incorrect, In training you spar, you might even spar very hard/full contact but this is not the same as fighting. Fighting is something different it’s going up against someone who is looking to do you real harm, not be your training partner. In a fight if you don't tap or make a mistake you get knocked out, things get broken you get damaged on purpose.

I agree and we have had this dicsussion before, A LOTS !
Dale made a very good point once and that was that, and I am paraphrasing, while sparring is NOT fighting but the training for fighting, competition is fighting.
Now, I disagreed with him because of intent, but Dale made a very valid point in regards to high level competition and what it takes to be successful and, at that level, I think he is right and competition is as close to a real fight as you can get.

[t_niehoff]

Understand this: there is a WORLD of difference between concepts and theory without experience, and concepts and theory with experience-which will lead to greater understanding and ability. This needs to be mentioned.
You need to differentiate between the two.
Otherwise, the conversation is just childish bickering and name-calling.
Which, for the most part, this and many threads are.

No, I think that for the most part, concepts and theory are simply our trying to over-intellectualize a non-intellectual activity. In fact, the better you get, the less you do that. Wrestling, boxing, like every other sport or athletic activity, doesn't use much in the way of concepts or theory.

[Frost]

I agree and we have had this dicsussion before, A LOTS !
Dale made a very good point once and that was that, and I am paraphrasing, while sparring is NOT fighting but the training for fighting, competition is fighting.
Now, I disagreed with him because of intent, but Dale made a very valid point in regards to high level competition and what it takes to be successful and, at that level, I think he is right and competition is as close to a real fight as you can get.

yep i remember those descussions lol

and of course you are right, the intent in competition is different than sparring, and the intent in competition fighting is alot closer to actual fighting than sparring is. i just think we should be careful saying we fight a lot etc, we spar, in sparring i am always looking after my partners health, i might clean his clock and he might clean mine, but intent wise we are trying not to do to much damage, its the same with grappling i put an armbar on tightly but i don;t go to injure him, in competition i look to finish him its up to him and the ref to look after his health.

I am confident of my grappling in a fight because i have competed, i am much less confident of my striking because i have not done MMA or full contact thai although i have sparred hard with very good people, and from reading yours and dales posts and just from being sensible i know there is a diferencebetween the two

[Wayfaring]

Knifefighter,

Dan Hardy's march against GSP looked very similar except
GSP couldn't submit him. Every round Dan Hardy was taken down instantly and remained there for the whole round. Dan Hardy IS an mma guy. Are you going to now disparage mma like you do wing chun or was that an example of "bad" mma?

There are plenty of people in MMA that can't pull off very much at all against GSP. That's why he's got the belt.

It has nothing to do with good or bad MMA. There are levels of competition for a reason.

[t_niehoff]

I agree and we have had this dicsussion before, A LOTS !
Dale made a very good point once and that was that, and I am paraphrasing, while sparring is NOT fighting but the training for fighting, competition is fighting.
Now, I disagreed with him because of intent, but Dale made a very valid point in regards to high level competition and what it takes to be successful and, at that level, I think he is right and competition is as close to a real fight as you can get.

Ah, the "real fighting." ;)

When you look at these things from a skill-based perspective, you will realize that we develop any skill only by and through actually practicing that skill. Fighting (or various skill sets associated with it) is no different. Same with swimming or riding a bike or surfing. It's by doing the activity itself that you get better at the activity.

Certainly competition in the activity (sport) drives progress (Dale is right about that). In fighting arts, the activity itself is competitive (you are sparring/fighting with an opponent).

But competition isn't "as close to a real fight as you can get" -- it's very far removed: it is much more demanding than any "real" fight (since in any "real fight" you will unlikely be facing an in-condition athlete with very good skills).

[Wayfaring]

No, I think that for the most part, concepts and theory are simply our trying to over-intellectualize a non-intellectual activity. In fact, the better you get, the less you do that. Wrestling, boxing, like every other sport or athletic activity, doesn't use much in the way of concepts or theory.

This IMO is many times a dividing line between a competitor and a coach. Many times the top level competitors do not make the best coaches. They do things instinctively and athletically that they have a hard time breaking down to teach other people. A good coach has the right blend of theory, instruction, and practice to be able to explain why and how and provide the environment for people to develop themselves.

But I'm not discounting your point about people getting too bound up in over-intellectualization. That is highly prevalent in WC.

[SavvySavage]

I didn't see that particular fight. However, if Hardy's goal was not to get taken down and he was constantly moving forward, then, yes, that would have been a very bad strategy.

I just caught you in a case of having a double standard. You didn't badmouth all of mma like you do with wing chun. You only talked about Hardy's performance as an individual not reflecting the whole sport.

[SoCo KungFu]

I'm not going to go back and read a lot of this mess. I'm just going to comment on Dan Hardy. He's a MMA fighter yes, but he is a rather one dimensional one. Europeans just haven't got the ground game like the Americans (north or south). No offense. But its been shown with Bisping, Daley, Hardy...

The fact he didn't get submitted has more to do with simply being tough and some mistakes on GSP's part (and maybe a little compassion). Laying on the ground and just sucking it up, is NOT a good strategy. It is not good grappling to just pain through an established submission. Which is what he did. GSP made two errors, on the armbar his knees were rather wide apart. Yes it was deep, but even a little shoulder/elbow rotation can take some pressure off, enough to suck up the pain. The kimura, GSP's left hip was way high. In other words, he didn't maintain pressure on Hardy's body, allowing him to follow along with the torque to eleviate pressure.

What GSP/Hardy have to do with wing chun I have no idea and after sitting in some stupid art class the past 3 hours I have absolutely zero desire to read back through the thread. But there ya go. Whatever yall were doing with it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

But competition isn't "as close to a real fight as you can get" -- it's very far removed: it is much more demanding than any "real" fight (since in any "real fight" you will unlikely be facing an in-condition athlete with very good skills).

Agreed in principle.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by YungChun:

" 'Charging in' is the very antithesis of VT movement.. VT takes great pains not to over commit, over extend or build up lots of momentum.. (normally) Note that if your opponent is for some reason unready, stunned, off balance, running away, etc, then a charge may be okay...Any stand-up (upright specialist) fighter from any 'functional' style understands why you don't just charge in. It's no different for Muay Thai, Western Boxing, etc.. But especially important when dealing with a grappler....."

FOLLOWED BY:

“Agreed 100%. I was never taught to charge in except when one really needed to close distance, for whatever reason (to finish a weak or injured opponent, etc.)

I was told to stay ‘relaxed’, wait and react. Simple and logical strategy, but not for our friend in the video......” (Hardwork108)

……………………………………


AND THEN THERE'S THIS:

Originally Posted by YungChun:

"I recall a thread a while back about Carlson Gracie and Kwok...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A Who's smoking what?"

FOLLOWED BY:

“Yeah... Who's smoking what?

2:01- Is that ‘charging in’ or is it ‘not to over committing, over extending or building up lots of momentum’?

Whatever you want to call that, that will pretty much have the same effect of setting you up to get taken down.” (Knifefighter)
………………………………………………….


***IF YOU BELIEVE, as I do, that the best defense is offense, then you can't afford to wait and react, as a good fighter will keep you on defense all day (as in, he'll wind up kicking your a55)...because you're always playing catch up.

And on the other side of the coin, if you just "charge in" - you're asking to be taken down or knocked out.

So what's the alternative?

For me, it's to box my way in (with kicking included, of course)...but done in a way that won't violate what I'm going to try and do as a wing chun man once I'm in close range...at which point a lot could happen, ie.- short range wing chun striking (and some bridging) with punches, palm strikes.....elbows, knees, boxing type hooks and uppercuts, MT plum neck ties, wrestling for underhooks, w h i z z e r s, front headlock or side headlock takedowns, perhaps takedowns via a shoot to the legs, sweeps, etc.

As well as coming in while making prudent use of the TWC Entry technique when I see the opportunity, or coming in with some TWC blindside moves to take control of his lead side...a number of things, in addition to the boxing/kickboxing.

[Knifefighter]

I just caught you in a case of having a double standard. You didn't badmouth all of mma like you do with wing chun. You only talked about Hardy's performance as an individual not reflecting the whole sport.

Because MMA as a sport doesn't advocate and train in the 90% of useless cr@p that WC does.

[Frost]

I just caught you in a case of having a double standard. You didn't badmouth all of mma like you do with wing chun. You only talked about Hardy's performance as an individual not reflecting the whole sport.

thats because plenty of MMA guys have looked good in the cage, hardy has looked good too just not on this occasion.

Now when has wing chun looked good against a takedown?

[Frost]

I'm not going to go back and read a lot of this mess. I'm just going to comment on Dan Hardy. He's a MMA fighter yes, but he is a rather one dimensional one. Europeans just haven't got the ground game like the Americans (north or south). No offense. But its been shown with Bisping, Daley, Hardy...

The fact he didn't get submitted has more to do with simply being tough and some mistakes on GSP's part (and maybe a little compassion). Laying on the ground and just sucking it up, is NOT a good strategy. It is not good grappling to just pain through an established submission. Which is what he did. GSP made two errors, on the armbar his knees were rather wide apart. Yes it was deep, but even a little shoulder/elbow rotation can take some pressure off, enough to suck up the pain. The kimura, GSP's left hip was way high. In other words, he didn't maintain pressure on Hardy's body, allowing him to follow along with the torque to eleviate pressure.

What GSP/Hardy have to do with wing chun I have no idea and after sitting in some stupid art class the past 3 hours I have absolutely zero desire to read back through the thread. But there ya go. Whatever yall were doing with it...

actually he’s not one dimensional as he does have a ground game but as you pointed out it’s not as developed as those of most American fighters. The UK MMA guys for the most part are playing catch up on the grappling side of things but it can be argued they are ahead of the curve when it comes to striking compared to their American cousins....and I’d be careful of categorising all Europeans as having bad ground games, Russians and Scandinavians have very good traditions in grappling (as does France but that’s mainly in judo).
And there are better ground guys in the UK than Dan or Daley on the ground, their stable mate jimmy wallhead was a former uk and European Judo U19 champion and has 4 wins against BJJ black belts for example

[SavvySavage]

GUys Daley was fired and can't fight in the UFC. Get with the times.

[Hardwork108]

Wow, what a great "Wing Chun" discussion this is turning into, specially when you consider the fact that we are in a KUNG FU forum and on a WING CHUN thread.....

Let the assault of the kung fu-clueless continue......

[Frost]

GUys Daley was fired and can't fight in the UFC. Get with the times.

i think the point was he lost to a grappler not about what happened afterwards

[bennyvt]

so now fighting isn't fighting but sparing is? wow:eek:
I think gojo predicted the chess playing, swimming excuse about three pages back.

[Dragonzbane76]

Because MMA as a sport doesn't advocate and train in the 90% of useless cr@p that WC does

a fact for most styles i've been around excluding a few.

[Dragonzbane76]

Wow, what a great "Wing Chun" discussion this is turning into, specially when you consider the fact that we are in a KUNG FU forum and on a WING CHUN thread.....

Let the assault of the kung fu-clueless continue......

throwing your 1/2 cent in. You feeling left out, need some attention awwwwwww.... poor guy.

[shawchemical]

No, it doesn't -- theory, concepts, etc. don't permit you to understand how to use your art "correctly". In fact, it works just the opposite. Understanding comes from skill, not the other way round.

When you learn the concepts and theories of people who can't do something well or at all, what are you learning?

NO, you're 100% wrong.

You clearly have no clue about not only fighting but about life as well.

The theory is important, as is the application side.

However, synergy between the two can provide something which can be more than the sum of the parts.

Understanding is definitely NOT something which comes from skill, but is associated with it. YOu may have great understanding but little practical skill (coaches, trainers etc), or you may also have great skill but little understanding (seen as great athletes who do stupid things in pressure situations - Mike tyson is one of these).

The coupling of these things is the ultimate goal we are ALL striving for.

But for the learning of these together you need not only a good teacher, who has the theoretical knowledge AND the knowledge about how to apply them as well as training partners who will push you every time you train with them.

They will not do the learning for you, but people with technical knowledge to point you in the right direction are ever useful resources.

The problem is T, that you are crap at what you do. And because of that, and your inability to make intelligent rational choices under pressure, coupled with your misplaced ego (that if you can't do it nobody can) mean that you can't see the forest for the trees.

Again, willful stupidity is less forgivable than stupidity itself. Typing pitiful insults to people who are your betters is simply a sign you're a petty little *****.

[shawchemical]

I agree with a lot of what you say but I’m afraid this is incorrect, In training you spar, you might even spar very hard/full contact but this is not the same as fighting. Fighting is something different it’s going up against someone who is looking to do you real harm, not be your training partner. In a fight if you don't tap or make a mistake you get knocked out, things get broken you get damaged on purpose.

There is no tapping in a real fight. A real fight is KO or major injury.

Sport fighting is different.

[Knifefighter]

There is no tapping in a real fight. A real fight is KO or major injury.

Sport fighting is different.

Which, once again, proves you to be a theoretical non-fighter. Anyone who has actually been in skirmishes knows that "real" fights involve everything from getting knifed to curbed, to shot, to someone breaking up the fight, to both people just quitting, to one person giving up and the fights over... and everything in between. Not every fight is a major trauma.

[shawchemical]

Bahahahahahahahaha.

keep fishing fu.cktard.

[YungChun]

Hence "charging" in quotation marks.


Well to be honest I have never observed charging with quotation marks in a fight so I couldn't comment.. ;)



There is nothing wrong with charging per say, if it is controlled aggression and not half-assed.

And this is the problem: I don't normally associate a charge with control...

VT is about being grounded and using minimal momentum even in striking... Charge to me = major momentum.. Momentum = "Please throw me" in MMA or SanShou rules.



Invading and controlling the opponents space is NOT a bad thing.


And VT does this via position, measured/controlled movement and timing not by pouring momentum into the mix.. A core fundamental of the art IMO.

[Frost]

There is no tapping in a real fight. A real fight is KO or major injury.

Sport fighting is different.

umm where did i say it was the same, i said sparring is not fighting, and that competition fighting is different from sparring and closely to real fighting than sparring

[Knifefighter]

VT is about being grounded and using minimal momentum even in striking... Charge to me = major momentum.. Momentum = "Please throw me" in MMA or SanShou rules.

And VT does this via position, measured/controlled movement and timing not by pouring momentum into the mix.. A core fundamental of the art IMO.

Please show a clip of a WC person doing this in a full-contact setting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that the obvious problem with this video is that we are all getting a good chuckle because the grappler easily defeated the WC man. However, the thing that we need to realize is that the WC man must have demonstrated something to get to a title bout.

[Frost]

I think that the obvious problem with this video is that we are all getting a good chuckle because the grappler easily defeated the WC man. However, the thing that we need to realize is that the WC man must have demonstrated something to get to a title bout.

i know guys who have fought for titles in various organisations with only a few or sometimes no fights under their belt especially a decade ago when not many people were competing

sometimes you get called up because no one else will compete, sometimes because your promoter talks a good fight, all we can say on the evidance of that fight he had no ground skills and his stand up was not suited to a full MMA comp

[taojkd]

I think that the obvious problem with this video is that we are all getting a good chuckle because the grappler easily defeated the WC man. However, the thing that we need to realize is that the WC man must have demonstrated something to get to a title bout.

Point. The vid did show that his record was 14-0. But is that verified? Where his wins in that organization that put on the show or another? If he has 14 wins why is there no clip of his other fights? Sherdog list his MMA record at 0-1. However, his website (http://falknerwingchun.com) has photos of him training what appears to be San Shao in China. So back in 1996 they would list any pro-fights you had whether it was MT, San Shao, K-1 etc.


Which exists where? Oh yeah, that film is located in the same library as the location of Jimmy Hoffa, Area 51 crash photos, and proof that Big Foot exists.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can tell you that a lot of records were inflated in MMA in the beginning and I am sure that may still be the case in many competitions.

[YungChun]

Please show a clip of a WC person doing this in a full-contact setting.

Alan Orr's guys are doing exactly that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Point. The vid did show that his record was 14-0. But is that verified? Where his wins in that organization that put on the show or another? If he has 14 wins why is there no clip of his other fights? Sherdog list his MMA record at 0-1. However, his website (http://falknerwingchun.com) has photos of him training what appears to be San Shao in China. So back in 1996 they would list any pro-fights you had whether it was MT, San Shao, K-1 etc.


Still, a professional match maker saw something in him to put him in that fight, a title bout. When you are looking to put together fights, its important to have fighters who can defend themselves against each other. I am sure that somebody saw something in him or he would not be there.

A sher dog listing is meaningless in of it's self. It's more to do with the promoter paying the IKF or some similar organization money than anything but you can rest assured that the same low quality fighters are at most of these shows either way.

[YungChun]

Yeah they saw something, pretty much what the kyokushin guys saw when they signed up that 90 pound weakling to fight in one of their tournaments.. A good way to discredit the art.

[Knifefighter]

Alan Orr's guys are doing exactly that.

Didn't you say they weren't doing WC?

[SAAMAG]

No that was the other wing chun guy

[Knifefighter]

No that was the other wing chun guy

LOL... hard to keep track of which WC guys think which other WC guys are doing WC.

[HumbleWCGuy]

No that was the other wing chun guy

I just said that I would not consider that clip that Dale posted to be the best example of WC in mma. I can't say that they aren't doing WC in general. I also said that no apology is necessary for going out and winning fights. The fighter certainly demonstrated some WC skills but I would not call what he did archetypal WC.



Since Alan and T. trained under the same instructor I was concerned that Alan guys were just LARPER WC training before proceeding to their MMA training but I have since found out that T. got his training via distance training so I feel much better about the quality of training that Alan's guys are getting in WC.

[SAAMAG]

LOL... hard to keep track of which WC guys think which other WC guys are doing WC.

Indeed. I used to be a guy that said it wasn't wing chun...until I emptied my cup and learned more about their methods to get a better understanding. Same thing goes with all of the other stuff. I go in to get an understanding and end up liking it more than anticipated.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqh-W5-E1rU&NR=1

[Dragonzbane76]

this was posted in the wing chun threads... and has a 20 volume encyclopedia after it to entail why he failed, what tech's. he should have used, why the other guy sucked, why his mother sucked, and his 3 legged dog has more skillz than most traditional people here, his mothers address, last couple women he's been with including details, does HW8 wear tinfoil over his whole body and smear jello through his hair with a dead fish, and how Lokhop. forgot to take his medication, ohhhh and iron crotch kicks almost forgot those.

[m1k3]

The sad part is that pretty well sums up that thread.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The sad part is that pretty well sums up that thread.

Well, almost any thread in the WC forum, LOL !

[jmd161]

It's funny how they build this stuff up!



Steve Falkner Is the #1 Wing Chun guy in the world today!:rolleyes:

I don't know much about Wing Chun but, I'm sure I would have heard something about the #1 WC guy in the world...:D

[monji112000]

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqh-W5-E1rU&NR=1

thats an old fight. Steve ended up spending the night in jail because of the fight. No matter what you think of Sifu Duncan Leung striking or his style, Steve had no idea really how to defend takedowns, and had no idea how to do anything on the ground.

its a open and shut discussion.

[donjitsu2]

I love how the announcers tried to hype the fight before hand - as though the WC guy actually stood a chance.

[thelegend731]

I want to see more of this kind of stuff. Traditional vs. Mma

[Frost]

I want to see more of this kind of stuff. Traditional vs. Mma

MMA is a format not an actual style, and since the arts that make up most fighters styles are thai, BJJ and wrestling they are traditional artists.

however there is a reason why you dont see the match ups you are talking about, and that reason was evident in the clip posted

[SAAMAG]

I think the reason has more to do with training methodology and intent. Nobody is going to be a competitive fighter (or fighter in general) without putting in some hard work using a training model that is conducive to applied skill development against resisting opponents.

In short, regardless of style, one needs to train like a fighter. Period. It takes a lot of effort, where you actually have to sweat. It takes pragmatic knowledge. It takes conditioning of one's body for the task. Most of those things are not present in some "fighting" styles.

[tigershorty]

I think the reason has more to do with training methodology and intent. Nobody is going to be a competitive fighter (or fighter in general) without putting in some hard work using a training model that is conducive to applied skill development against resisting opponents.

In short, regardless of style, one needs to train like a fighter. Period. It takes a lot of effort, where you actually have to sweat. It takes pragmatic knowledge. It takes conditioning of one's body for the task. Most of those things are not present in some "fighting" styles.

I guess you could say as the need went down for real fighters, the systems/styles adjusted to cater.

[Eric_H]

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqh-W5-E1rU&NR=1

Great clip, goes to show if you wanna compete in MMA, you need to train against MMA fighters, not people who throw punches from yards away like shown in his warm up.

[tigershorty]

^ amen to that.

[t_niehoff]

Since Alan and T. trained under the same instructor I was concerned that Alan guys were just LARPER WC training before proceeding to their MMA training but I have since found out that T. got his training via distance training so I feel much better about the quality of training that Alan's guys are getting in WC.

And how do you think that Alan (who lives in the UK) got his WCK training from Robert (who lives in LA)?

It's interesting that you throw around terms like "LARPER WCK training" when there is absolutely no evidence that you have ever received ANY WCK training.

[t_niehoff]

Great clip, goes to show if you wanna compete in MMA, you need to train against MMA fighters, not people who throw punches from yards away like shown in his warm up.

A "classic" example:

Bagua (Moashan) vs. muay thai (Nakmeezy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

and then the bagua guy (sifu -- yes, he teaches) explaining what he believes went wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA

[Dave McKinnon]

I am all about getting in the ring but I don't think the Ba Gua guy even hit pads or a bag or anything.

[t_niehoff]

I am all about getting in the ring but I don't think the Ba Gua guy even hit pads or a bag or anything.

What's the point in actually training like a fighter?

[weakstudent]

@ T i was there and i must admit that nakmeezy look to me, that he was taking it easy. what do you think?

[weakstudent]

I am all about getting in the ring but I don't think the Ba Gua guy even hit pads or a bag or anything.

but there's a video of him beating up trees, lol

[t_niehoff]

@ T i was there and i must admit that nakmeezy look to me, that he was taking it easy. what do you think?

It was like a warm knife thru butter, wasn't it?

Maoshan can do the ba gua forms and teaches ba gua "application", right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEfW40rNB5c&feature=channel

He can sure talk theory

about conditioning (including for finger strikes!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn1CSe4OIDs&feature=channel

and power training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0FFjHoltg&feature=related

He teaches, holds himself out there as an authority, and has put up lots of videos of himself on youtube too.

And if you read and/or listen to his post fight comments, you will see that he still doesn't get it.

[Wayfaring]

I am all about getting in the ring but I don't think the Ba Gua guy even hit pads or a bag or anything.

He did hit the floor a lot though.

[Wayfaring]

@ T i was there and i must admit that nakmeezy look to me, that he was taking it easy. what do you think?

after the first couple of exchanges, the MT guy had the ba gua guy's measure and was punking him through the rest of the time. he saw that he had a mismatch and exploited it. he probably wouldn't do that at home at his school in matches - someone would see that attitude and make him pay. unfortunately the ba gua guy had no ability to do that.

[Frost]

after the first couple of exchanges, the MT guy had the ba gua guy's measure and was punking him through the rest of the time. he saw that he had a mismatch and exploited it. he probably wouldn't do that at home at his school in matches - someone would see that attitude and make hi:)m pay. unfortunately the ba gua guy had no ability to do that.

i also think they were friends, either way it shows what happens when someone thinks they can fight goes up against someone who is actually trained and conditioned to fight

[Dave McKinnon]

I guess the real question should not be why does X art suck, or why does X person suck but where is the failing in the art/ training method and mental/ physical attitude that is causing the martial artist to fail.

I don't care if traditional MA win or loose but think about it. Are modern MA superior or TMA failing in training standards.

[Dragonzbane76]

that last statement should be it's own thread imo.

[weakstudent]

i also think they were friends, either way it shows what happens when someone thinks they can fight goes up against someone who is actually trained and conditioned to fight

i dont know if they were friends then but not now after maoshan last video of the fight, and nakmeezy post fight video when he aid maoshan was teaching fake stuff and was calling him maosham,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqYNyTVHwk8

[weakstudent]

nakmeezy post fight interview
starts at 1:37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em3RUigog9o&feature=related

[t_niehoff]

I guess the real question should not be why does X art suck, or why does X person suck but where is the failing in the art/ training method and mental/ physical attitude that is causing the martial artist to fail.

I don't care if traditional MA win or loose but think about it. Are modern MA superior or TMA failing in training standards.

I think it is both.

It's not just a matter of take anything (or any "art") and if you train it well, it will be "good" or you can "make it work." Some stuff is just crappy, it's poor technique, poor tactics, etc. And no matter how "well" you train it, it will always be crappy.

Modern martial arts have embraced the sport model, and in any "sport", the performance aspect (how well you actually play the game) is the paramount concern. This drives advancement in both training measures and in technical aspects (weeding out things that don't perform well and replacing them with things that do perform well).

TMAs are not traditionally performance-based like the modern sport-oriented arts. And that in a nutshell is why TMA practitioners typically don't perform well.

[Wayfaring]

I don't care if traditional MA win or loose but think about it. Are modern MA superior or TMA failing in training standards.

I think it's the same question. Lyoto Machida makes a TMA work BECAUSE of training it with more modern MA training methods, which are superior. Cung Le looked pretty good in his last fight too - he certainly has TMA originated kicks.

[Hardwork108]

I think it is both.

It's not just a matter of take anything (or any "art") and if you train it well, it will be "good" or you can "make it work." Some stuff is just crappy, it's poor technique, poor tactics, etc. And no matter how "well" you train it, it will always be crappy.
You must remember that sometimes a person who sees a technique as "poor" may be very wrong, as that very technique may be very effective, if the unlooker had a better understanding of the art he is looking at.


Modern martial arts have embraced the sport model, and in any "sport", the performance aspect (how well you actually play the game) is the paramount concern. This drives advancement in both training measures and in technical aspects (weeding out things that don't perform well and replacing them with things that do perform well).
The main relevance of your comment is in regards to the SPORTS FIGHTING SCENARIO.


TMAs are not traditionally performance-based like the modern sport-oriented arts.
I disagree. However, the TMA testing ground has traditionally (and mainly) been the battle field, or at least real encounters, rather than sports tournaments.


And that in a nutshell is why TMA practitioners typically don't perform well.

Correction, they don't perform well in sports tournaments, when they have not adapted their training to SPORT tournament fighting. Those who adapt, do pretty welL in SPORTS fighting.

[Hardwork108]

I guess the real question should not be why does X art suck, or why does X person suck but where is the failing in the art/ training method and mental/ physical attitude that is causing the martial artist to fail.

I don't care if traditional MA win or loose but think about it. Are modern MA superior or TMA failing in training standards.

That is a rather complicated issue.

What are we talking about when we say that TMA is failing? Its performance in the street, or the sports arena?

Of course, IMHO, the TMA scene is full of quacks and sharlatans, who could not fight their way out of paper bags. So, that can't be good. However, learning proper Wing Chun or any TMA, as it was designed to be studied, from a genuine sifu, will prepare one for the street scenario.

However, the sports scenario is another ball game. Let's put it this way. My training mindset is to finish an encounter as quickly as possible. I cannot focus my training on a perceived 10 round fight, in a sporting arena/context, when in the street I may be attacked by multiples, or at least have the possibility of multiples, including the appearance of weapons, while I am "sparring" with someone who is trying to kill me.

By the way, I live in Colombia.....

I believe that it is this difference in mindset that our sports/MMA/kickboxer friends here do not appreciate, and their reasoning that successful sports fighting abilities, even though beneficial to some degree, are going to AUTOMATICALLY be better than even a genuinely trained in a COMBAT(not sports) oriented TMA school, is false, and even dangerous (including for their own health).

The mental and physical attitude that you mentioned should be part of genuine TMA training, which should be different for a street scenario, that is, distinct from the sporting context.

[t_niehoff]

You must remember that sometimes a person who sees a technique as "poor" may be very wrong, as that very technique may be very effective, if the unlooker had a better understanding of the art he is looking at.


Bzzt. Wrong.

You don't need to understand any art or technique to see whether or not it works -- or works consistently.

BTW, what makes you think that YOU "understand" an art, like WCK, if you can't make it work?



The main relevance of your comment is in regards to the SPORTS FIGHTING SCENARIO.


The whole street-sport distinction is based on a fallacy. Skill works. It works on the street and it works in the ring, in the gym, in a cage, wherever. Skill works. Just like conditioning works.



I disagree. However, the TMA testing ground has traditionally (and mainly) been the battle field, or at least real encounters, rather than sports tournaments.


This is fantasy bullsh1t. TMAs were never tested on the battlefield. "Real encounters"? You think that a MMA fighter trying to knock your head off isn't real? Can you deal with his imaginary punches? His imaginary takedowns?

But I do agree, that TMAs were not tested in sport -- and that is why they are, for the most part, inferior to modern fighting arts. You see, sport is what makes the art BETTER. When Kano took traditional Japanese JJ and made it into a sport, judo, his guys dominated all the traditional guys. Today, you see those arts that became sports (like wrestling, judo, BJJ, boxing, MT, etc.) dominating because sport weeds out the nonsense (as it is performance based).



Correction, they don't perform well in sports tournaments, when they have not adapted their training to SPORT tournament fighting. Those who adapt, do pretty welL in SPORTS fighting.

If they can't do well in sport tournaments it is because they have little skill (like Moashan). Skill works. When they start training for sport, they start developing skill.

[t_niehoff]

For those who believe in the street-vs-sport ("real fighting") notion:

Back to Bagua (Moashan) vs. muay thai (Nakmeezy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

That was sport, right? And Moashan sucked. Both in skill and in conditioning, right.

Now listen to what Moashan says, particularly at 30 s in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA

"Fighting for the ring is a specialty . . . but training for health and self defense, and training for the ring are two different things."

Then again at 1:07

"I had been training to fight light . . . this is a street-thing, a complete street thing."

And ESPECIALLY at 4:35

"For getting in the ring you have to train . . . for life and death purposes, that's something different . . . ."

Now go back and watch his PERFORMANCE, how he had no power, no skill, no technique, nothing he did really worked.

Now, let's take him from the ring and put him on the street -- will he now have power, now have skill, have technique, be able to make everything work? No. He'll suck just as badly. Even if it were life-and-death.

Yet, he thinks he should train really hard for the ring, but NOT for life-and-death!

Skill works. Conditioning works. Skill and conditioning come from good, solid training. That skill and conditioning can be used anywhere -- if you have it. If you don't, then you can't use it, whether the ring or street or life-and-death. This is what Moashan and the street-sport guys don't grasp -- it's not about street-vs-sport or "real fighting", that's a red-herring. It is about skill and conditioning.

[sihing]

Ultimately Terrence is absolutely correct. MMA is the best venue to deal with pressure (=any type of attack one may face), whether it is in the octagon or on the street, simply for the fact that MMA introduces the most realistic/safest method of facing this pressure in training as well as how often it exposes it's participants to that pressure.

The thing is not all want to train in MMA, for whatever reasons, maybe because they have a disability, maybe there is a prejudice towards it, or maybe they just don't like it. There is a large MMA school here in my city, but I still have new students joining my small club. Why? Because of personal choice, they went to the MMA school, and didn't like it. I also have people try out my class and choose not to join, which again is due to personal choice.

WC is not as complete a training method as MMA, in that we mostly function in the stand up realm, nor do we put ourselves under as much pressure and as consistently as MMA guys do, but there still is a level of effectiveness in the WC method. What it does do is bring about skill sets and attributes that can be effective if the practitioner 1) understands what it is they are doing in training WC, 2) practice allot, 3) after some practice and absorption of the WC skill set, put it under some real pressure to see where the deficiency is and what is working as well, 4) repeat process up to the individuals level of satisfaction. Most people's level of satisfaction is not at the world class level, since most of us are not born with the fighters mentality, physical gifts and inclination to want to fight (liking the activity of fighting per say).

As WC practitioners we can also adapt it to a modern methodology, which includes pad and bag work, physical fitness conditioning, isolated and full on sparring, while still practicing the traditional curriculum of forms, chi/laap sau, pole/knife work and so forth. The difference between the two is that one is the acquiring of the skill, the other is about learning how to apply that skill set realistically. Allot of this depends on the persons interest level and time commitment. Some just fall in love with the art and this is why they practice it.

Fighting effectively in the end comes down to the persons individual will to survive and overcome, the tools one learns in any Martial Art just allow this to happen more efficiently and effectively.

James

[Hardwork108]

Bzzt. Wrong.

You don't need to understand any art or technique to see whether or not it works -- or works consistently.
WRONG, you DO!

If your experience is limited to kickboxing and MMA and then you come across techniques that look strange to you, then you might assume that they did not work. That is if you are a pompous "so and so"!


BTW, what makes you think that YOU "understand" an art, like WCK, if you can't make it work?
You are assuming that I, and no one, can make Wing Chun work, because you, yourself were incapable of making it work? LOL!



The whole street-sport distinction is based on a fallacy.
Correction, thinking that sport fighting will make automatically make you superior to a well trained TMA guy, is the fallacy.

Furthermore, your fallacy exists because there are so few genuine TMA training venues out there, meaning that you, yourself have never trained genuine TMA, to make the outrageous claims that you always seem to be making.


Skill works. It works on the street and it works in the ring, in the gym, in a cage, wherever. Skill works.

Skill can mean different things in different contexts. Of course, no one is denying that skill in contact sports fighting has its relevance in the street. However, it is also good to consider that valid TMA schools will include contact fighting practice as part of their training program.


Just like conditioning works.
Oh really? Are you sure? Wow, who would have thought that condtioning works......LOL!


This is fantasy bullsh1t. TMAs were never tested on the battlefield.
That is interesting because there is still the fact that some TCMA founders were army generals, and presumably soldiers.

The Japanese Samurais had trained in the art of Ju jutsu, while the Japanese army of the early 20th century adopted Shotokan karate for its miliatary unarmed combat training, and that is according to your own "friend", Steve Morris.


"Real encounters"?
Yes, real encounters like the ones on battle fields; Hong Kong gangster fights (Wing Chun, CLF, etc); Bodyguard duties (Baji quan), and so on....


You think that a MMA fighter trying to knock your head off isn't real? Can you deal with his imaginary punches? His imaginary takedowns?
Of course it is. No one is denying the relevance of contact sports fighting to street fighting.

You are just failing to grasp my point, because you have never really trained in TMAs in your life. So, I understand your failings. Unfortunately, most kung fu tagged MMA-ists who post here are the same as you.


But I do agree, that TMAs were not tested in sport -- and that is why they are, for the most part, inferior to modern fighting arts. You see, sport is what makes the art BETTER. When Kano took traditional Japanese JJ and made it into a sport, judo, his guys dominated all the traditional guys.

Well, they were not participating in unarmed combat with JJJ trained Samurais (read professional killers) on the battlefield, were they? It has all to do with context and the mindset of the TMA-ist you are fighting.

You take some street fight hardened young man, from one of the Colombian street gangs, near where I live, and teach him some serious TMA methodology and put him against an MMA guy with the same amount of training, in a STREET SCENARIO, then I bet that even you would not be so sure of the answers.....LOL


Today, you see those arts that became sports (like wrestling, judo, BJJ, boxing, MT, etc.) dominating because sport weeds out the nonsense (as it is performance based).
I agree that a lot of TMA stuff would not work in the sports ring, and that would be because none of them were designed for sporting entertainment. However, TCMA methodologies that have been ADOPTED for the ring scenario, do pretty well, as I am sure that you have noticed.


If they can't do well in sport tournaments it is because they have little skill (like Moashan).
In a world full of Mcdojos, Mckwoons and kung fu franchises with false masters, grand masters and etc. I do not know why you give credence to Moashan's representation of the whole style of Bagua, or is it the whole of the TCMAs?


Skill works.

Skill works and so do skills taught in genuine TCMA kwoons or dojos. You don't know this fact because you have never seriously trained in one, have you?


When they start training for sport, they start developing skill.

Correct, and that skill is primary relevance is to sports fighting, which is also relevant to street fighting to a good degree. No one is denying that!

[Dragonzbane76]

My training mindset is to finish an encounter as quickly as possible.

and you think someone in the ring wants to play around in the ring for 5 rounds? They want to finish as fast as possible. No one that gets in there wants it to go on for that long. The plan is to finish as quickly as possible.


when in the street I may be attacked by multiples and training in modern MA's won't give you the skills necessary for this? The conditioning? mind set? It's not a far leap to apply techniques from the "ring/cage" to any street scenario.

thinking that form work, and what if encounter training is going to save you in the "street" mentality that A LOT of TMA schools teach is dangerous IMO.

[tigershorty]

(this post kind of overlaps some other threads on here about the forms/our concept of traditional training, too..so bare with me)

sports are totally 100% translatable to fighting, even if you're not talking about sport fighting.

everyone does some version of forms in practice, especially alone practice. different levels of drilling, group training-1 on 1, 3 on 3, 5 on 5..watching your swing on video, practicing plays, shot technique, etc etc.

however, you can never be great if you don't compete/get in game experience. all that practice is to get you ready to play. How many people train to fight and never actually fight? Most of us.

i think both are relevant, tho - even the stars still practice. im sure even mma guys have their own forms (shadowing boxing, etc) the difference is...in sports, you have to actually perform, and when you don't there is a metric for success (you win, score a lot of points, put the ball in the hole) or you lose- and most everyone in sports agrees on what is correct/right. there is common knowledge. Everyone here does wing chun and can't agree on basic ideas like tan sao.

that's why MMA guys beat our asses. thats why MMA is popular. thats why sports stars have gotten better every year and TMA has gotten worse every year. people need to have realistic expectations and be honest about their training...or **** like that muay thai guy beating the crap out of the bagua guy happens.

unfort... people started putting the wrong thing on the pedestal like forms when really the key was training and conditioning. marketing got a lot of people confused about the goal, it alienated them, they went to mma or quit. the few who did stay were so invested mentally or finacially that they just brainwashed themselves...and then you have the new crowd that it catered to. And that's the reality a lot of people aren't admitting to...a lot of us are those people. Not that you can't learn to really fight, but if you think you're gonna be an MMA level fighter practicing 3 times a week, 1 hour at a time with chi sao or sui nim tao..you're mistaken.

also, i don't think TMA schools train the way traditional martial arts schools trained typically. The idea of rooftop fighting bare fist is just such not a common reality anymore for most students or even their teachers.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . This is fantasy bullsh1t. TMAs were never tested on the battlefield. "Real encounters"? . . .
These are the kinds of unsubstantiated statements that make me wonder about your understanding of combat. MANY TMAs were used in warfare/combat throughout history. I'll presume that you'd consider a Samurai swordsman to be an MMA fighter. :rolleyes:
MMA/gage fighting is one of the best way to test you skills but there are rules. MMA fighters are not invincible in the streets. Especially against a boot party.

[Phil Redmond]

(Now I know the wiki isn't the best source for acurate info but at least it can be a stepping stone for further research).

First of al MMA comes from TMAs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts
(For the MMA jockriders Pankration was way before MMA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration )

TMAs used in warfare:
Kalarippayattu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalarippayattu
http://www.yourdiscovery.com/martialarts/southasia/kalaripayatta/index.shtml

Muay Boran:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Boran

Samurai:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai

Jiujitsu:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiujitsu

Filipino Martial arts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_martial_arts
I found so many more from places like Iran, etc.

[HumbleWCGuy]

For T. It is really about just spouting a few platitudes. Stuff that he doesn't really know about (most things) are fantasy. Next he will accuse you or not training realistically, otherwise you would agree with him.

[Hardwork108]

and you think someone in the ring wants to play around in the ring for 5 rounds?
Of course not. Everyone wants to win as quickly as possible and get out of the fight with minimum injuries, but that is not my point!


They want to finish as fast as possible.
Of course they do.


No one that gets in there wants it to go on for that long.
Of course they don't.


The plan is to finish as quickly as possible.
Of course it is......[/quote]

HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is that because of the typical sports scenarios the fights last LONGER!.

That is the nature of the beast

Of course, there are exceptions, and those exceptions occur more often,or less often, depending on the given modality of contact fighting, but he fact is that he average sports fight, lasts longer than a street fight!

Furhtermore, in a sports fight you are never worried about second or third parties entering the dipute. As a result, you "take your time" to make your enteries and so on.

Also, you may not think twice about taking someone down. After all, the ring floor is softer than cement, and it is clean, and you are not worried about anyone else coming in and kicking your head, or introducing a weapon.

I hope that you see where I am coming from.....


and training in modern MA's won't give you the skills necessary for this? The conditioning?
The conditioning will come in handy in a multiple attacker scenario.


mind set?
The mind set may be ok, but what about habits. These people train intensely to be successful in the ring. The ring training may give them habits that might just get them killed in a multiple attack scenario!


It's not a far leap to apply techniques from the "ring/cage" to any street scenario.
If you read my previous post carefully, then you will see that I do not deny that ring training is beneficial for street encounters. The point is PROPER TMA training will do the same in its own way, and perhaps better in certain areas, just as the ring training may be better in other areas.


thinking that form work, and what if encounter training is going to save you in the "street" mentality that A LOT of TMA schools teach is dangerous IMO.
I am not talking about "A LOT" of TMA schools. Again, most TMA teachers would not know real TMA if it fell on their heads!

[Tringsh]

The biggest trap for some fighters and martial artists is that they limit themselves into believing there is only one application for their specific style or technique. I believe that's what happened with the aforementioned fight with the MT fighter. If you limit yourself just to stay true to the style you are learning it's likely you're hindering yourself.

Wing Chun in my opinion is not a practical fighting style on its own but I have been able to use it while kickboxing and find it extremely beneficial for reaction times and counters.

I believe people that disregard an entire fighting system are short sighted and ignorant especially if they have never tried it.

[tigershorty]

i agree with that, and also- you should always do what works for you and your natural talents. if you're tall and long, savat or some kind of long range kicking might be good for you while you're able.

i think wing chun is nice cause you can grow old with it like golf. but i do agree, it compliments other styles nicely.

i heard a story about my sigung (sifu's sifu?) kicking a boxer in the face when he came to challenge him. now, he's a wing chun guy, so why did he kick him in the face? because he could and he knew other martial arts. big deal. people should have FUN and do what works for them.

[Dragonzbane76]

If you read my previous post carefully, then you will see that I do not deny that ring training is beneficial for street encounters. The point is PROPER TMA training will do the same in its own way, and perhaps better in certain areas, just as the ring training may be better in other areas.

sorry didn't read your other posts before the last. I can see where you are coming from in area's. When you first waded in I thought you were waving the MMA meathead wand around. :p

[m1k3]

These are the kinds of unsubstantiated statements that make me wonder about your understanding of combat. MANY TMAs were used in warfare/combat throughout history. I'll presume that you'd consider a Samurai swordsman to be an MMA fighter. :rolleyes:
MMA/gage fighting is one of the best way to test you skills but there are rules. MMA fighters are not invincible in the streets. Especially against a boot party.

Sorry Phil but I have to disagree with you on some of this. TMA's are traditionally trained as dueling arts, one on one, two on one etc. Military combat training includes this but moves well beyond it with unit tactics and fighting as part of a group. Even back in the sword and armor days the armies that won weren't just warriors they were solders (or in our case Marines! Oohrah!) and fought using shield walls, coordinated movement, integration of cavalry and ground troops with your long/cross bow units and so forth. Your dueling type skills did not come into play unless the sh1t hit the fan and you ended up in a melee.

This is why all the bs about H2H training in the military isn't really that important. Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.

The military style of training contains some dueling type training but it is not the high priority, dueling style training doesn't contain any of the military unit style training.

[Tringsh]

Sorry Phil but I have to disagree with you on some of this. TMA's are traditionally trained as dueling arts, one on one, two on one etc. Military combat training includes this but moves well beyond it with unit tactics and fighting as part of a group. Even back in the sword and armor days the armies that won weren't just warriors they were solders (or in our case Marines! Oohrah!) and fought using shield walls, coordinated movement, integration of cavalry and ground troops with your long/cross bow units and so forth. Your dueling type skills did not come into play unless the sh1t hit the fan and you ended up in a melee.

This is why all the bs about H2H training in the military isn't really that important. Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.

The military style of training contains some dueling type training but it is not the high priority, dueling style training doesn't contain any of the military unit style training.

I'm sorry but I don't think you explained that terribly well. Of course an army needs to be well drilled and work in units to achieve success but the way you explain it makes it sound like soldiers wouldn't fight as individuals while still within a unit...

Before firearms came into play units of soldiers would clash on the battlefield and it would be very much down to how well trained a combatant was. Do you think a generals personal guard would be made of local militia?

I also disagree with your point 'Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.' That’s a real generalisation and someone’s basic military training may not stand up against someone that has been training in solely hand to hand combat for the same period of time.

[monji112000]

The army will only teach you "real" fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYI9H7L93iQ&feature=pyv&ad=3605879278&kw=karate

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkungfu#p/u/4/9MhbE-uFk6w

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkungfu#p/u/5/qfer8D7XsPY

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkungfu#p/u/0/EgE5WDiG2AM

[m1k3]

I'm sorry but I don't think you explained that terribly well. Of course an army needs to be well drilled and work in units to achieve success but the way you explain it makes it sound like soldiers wouldn't fight as individuals while still within a unit...



Ok, I'm talking about the professional armies of their time, not militias. Militias fought primarily in a melee or a bunch of individual fights when two units clashed together. Professional armies would fight as units, usually behind a shield wall or in a phalanx with each solder having resposibilites for how he fought in the unit and supporting each each as a cohesive unit. Professional armies ate militias for lunch even when greatly out numbered.



Before firearms came into play units of soldiers would clash on the battlefield and it would be very much down to how well trained a combatant was. Do you think a generals personal guard would be made of local militia?

I also disagree with your point 'Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.' That’s a real generalisation and someone’s basic military training may not stand up against someone that has been training in solely hand to hand combat for the same period of time.

In a one on one fight the dualist has the advantage. The solder has some skills that he would bring to that kind of fight but not at the level of the dualist.

The dualist would have almost no skills that would transfer to a unit in a professional army and would probably just get in the way, unless it became a melee situation.

They are two totally different styles of fighting with few cross over skills.

Which is why the traditional arts are battlefield tested is not a valid argument unless it was an art designed and trained for the military. English and Japanese bow training for example.

[m1k3]

The army will only teach you "real" fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYI9H7L93iQ&feature=pyv&ad=3605879278&kw=karate

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkungfu#p/u/4/9MhbE-uFk6w

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkungfu#p/u/5/qfer8D7XsPY

http://www.youtube.com/user/worldkungfu#p/u/0/EgE5WDiG2AM

LOL, WTF was that???

[monji112000]

LOL, WTF was that???

That was real, deadly, not sport fighting thats taught to the worlds most advanced army. I know of also another style thats tought to Navy Seals, but you have to sign papers and have clearance to know the name or the teacher. I'm not playing you do so I can't say. really.

People have dreams of what is taught to armies today or back in the day .. no super secret style, or amazing fighting arts.

People who learn to fight in armies learn how to be tough, get in shape, and do basic strikes, chokes ect..

the first two are the most important.. everyone knows roughly how to punch people. You hit them hard, over and over again.

:D

I didn't make this up or come up with these ideas.. they were told to me by Marines, navy seals, and army rangers currently fighting for our freedom. The idea is simple...
we have technology do a large amount of fight. We need soldiers who are in amazing shape, and very strong. Its impossible to train them to be amazing fighters.. so if they are mentally and physically tough.. thats more than enough.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Sorry Phil but I have to disagree with you on some of this. TMA's are traditionally trained as dueling arts, one on one, two on one etc. Military combat training includes this but moves well beyond it with unit tactics and fighting as part of a group. Even back in the sword and armor days the armies that won weren't just warriors they were solders (or in our case Marines! Oohrah!) and fought using shield walls, coordinated movement, integration of cavalry and ground troops with your long/cross bow units and so forth. Your dueling type skills did not come into play unless the sh1t hit the fan and you ended up in a melee.

This is why all the bs about H2H training in the military isn't really that important. Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.

The military style of training contains some dueling type training but it is not the high priority, dueling style training doesn't contain any of the military unit style training.

What you are saying just isn't correct. Most of the japanese arts are derived from samurais who were definitely solders. Many of the long fist arts are derived from sword tactics which is why they seem sill when doing the moments empty hand.

If you train with a lot of the old masters they still pass on the military tactics. You could make the case that ancient ground grappling arts like Greco Roman Wrestling are dueling arts, but it is hard to make the case that most other arts had their origins in dueling although some have evolved into dueling arts.

[Frost]

That was real, deadly, not sport fighting thats taught to the worlds most advanced army. I know of also another style thats tought to Navy Seals, but you have to sign papers and have clearance to know the name or the teacher. I'm not playing you do so I can't say. really.

People have dreams of what is taught to armies today or back in the day .. no super secret style, or amazing fighting arts.

People who learn to fight in armies learn how to be tough, get in shape, and do basic strikes, chokes ect..

the first two are the most important.. everyone knows roughly how to punch people. You hit them hard, over and over again.

:D

I didn't make this up or come up with these ideas.. they were told to me by Marines, navy seals, and army rangers currently fighting for our freedom. The idea is simple...
we have technology do a large amount of fight. We need soldiers who are in amazing shape, and very strong. Its impossible to train them to be amazing fighters.. so if they are mentally and physically tough.. thats more than enough.

which goes back to a point made on a thread in the main forum, fitness inbuild toughness, a strong mentality and the willingness to do bodily harm are the most important things in a confrontation

[Tringsh]

I see what your saying m1k3 and I don't disagree that units would work together to great effect however they would also break away from the sheild wall to fight.

[Dragonzbane76]

or the chain punch will finish anything and everything. :p

[m1k3]

That was real, deadly, not sport fighting thats taught to the worlds most advanced army. I know of also another style thats tought to Navy Seals, but you have to sign papers and have clearance to know the name or the teacher. I'm not playing you do so I can't say. really.

People have dreams of what is taught to armies today or back in the day .. no super secret style, or amazing fighting arts.

People who learn to fight in armies learn how to be tough, get in shape, and do basic strikes, chokes ect..

the first two are the most important.. everyone knows roughly how to punch people. You hit them hard, over and over again.

:D

I didn't make this up or come up with these ideas.. they were told to me by Marines, navy seals, and army rangers currently fighting for our freedom. The idea is simple...
we have technology do a large amount of fight. We need soldiers who are in amazing shape, and very strong. Its impossible to train them to be amazing fighters.. so if they are mentally and physically tough.. thats more than enough.

Sorry dude but I am a former Marine and so is Phil. I never saw anything like that when I was in and I'll bet Phil didn't either.

I agree with your mentally and physically tough comment though, add a lot of aggression with some basic training to that and you have one tuff hombre.

The thing is the military doesn't focus much on hand to hand. The programs are kind of laid out but its up to the individual to pursue them. There is too much other stuff that is too important that gets a higher priority in the training schedule.

I will admit you get a fair amount in boot/basic but to a large degree that is to build toughness and aggression and the warrior mentality, not great hand to hand skills.



I see what your saying m1k3 and I don't disagree that units would work together to great effect however they would also break away from the sheild wall to fight.

Not if you're well trained. You are actually safer fighting as part of the unit. Doesn't matter if the guy banging on your shield is a great swordsman if your buddies spear is poking him in the guts or slashing him across the shins under your shield.

The individual skills only came into play if the shield wall is flanked or breaks.

[SAAMAG]

For those who believe in the street-vs-sport ("real fighting") notion:

Back to Bagua (Moashan) vs. muay thai (Nakmeezy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

That was sport, right? And Moashan sucked. Both in skill and in conditioning, right.

Now listen to what Moashan says, particularly at 30 s in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA

"Fighting for the ring is a specialty . . . but training for health and self defense, and training for the ring are two different things."

Then again at 1:07

"I had been training to fight light . . . this is a street-thing, a complete street thing."

And ESPECIALLY at 4:35

"For getting in the ring you have to train . . . for life and death purposes, that's something different . . . ."

Now go back and watch his PERFORMANCE, how he had no power, no skill, no technique, nothing he did really worked.

Now, let's take him from the ring and put him on the street -- will he now have power, now have skill, have technique, be able to make everything work? No. He'll suck just as badly. Even if it were life-and-death.

Yet, he thinks he should train really hard for the ring, but NOT for life-and-death!

Skill works. Conditioning works. Skill and conditioning come from good, solid training. That skill and conditioning can be used anywhere -- if you have it. If you don't, then you can't use it, whether the ring or street or life-and-death. This is what Moashan and the street-sport guys don't grasp -- it's not about street-vs-sport or "real fighting", that's a red-herring. It is about skill and conditioning.

Very much correct.

[Dragonzbane76]

Skill works. Conditioning works. Skill and conditioning come from good, solid training. That skill and conditioning can be used anywhere -- if you have it. If you don't, then you can't use it, whether the ring or street or life-and-death. This is what Moashan and the street-sport guys don't grasp -- it's not about street-vs-sport or "real fighting", that's a red-herring. It is about skill and conditioning.

i agree with this as well.

[SAAMAG]

I have a question regarding people saying that this or that can't be used in "sport fighting" or those that make the distinction that the skills aren't transferable....

Let's assume you have 4 oz gloves on and a mouthpiece and the rules only state that you can't hit the eyes, the spine, or the balls.

What can't you do that is wing chun?

[m1k3]

I have a question regarding people saying that this or that can't be used in "sport fighting" or those that make the distinction that the skills aren't transferable....

Let's assume you have 4 oz gloves on and a mouthpiece and the rules only state that you can't hit the eyes, the spine, or the balls.

What can't you do that is wing chun?

Hit the eyes, the spine, or the balls. Duh. :D

Actually that's one of the arguments that drives me nuts. You don't have the skills to punch someone in the face but you're going to be able to poke him in the eye or crush his trachea???? :rolleyes:

[SAAMAG]

Hit the eyes, the spine, or the balls. Duh. :D

Actually that's one of the arguments that drives me nuts. You don't have the skills to punch someone in the face but you're going to be able to poke him in the eye or crush his trachea???? :rolleyes:

Serious question though...no one will be able to viably say that the majority of their wing chun wouldn't be useable. So then were is the problem? It's not in the ruleset that's for sure.

[m1k3]

Serious question though...no one will be able to viably say that the majority of their wing chun wouldn't be useable. So then were is the problem? It's not in the ruleset that's for sure.

Its the training. Learn to do the basics under pressure. Do it in sparring or a competition where you are trying to hit him and he is trying to hit you. Once your good at this then throw in your just add dirt drills.

Its kind of like the way I look at BJJ. If I can take you down and pin you with a scarf hold for example there's no reason that on the street I couldn't add an eye gouge or a throat strike. Actually you could make that one of your train occasionally drills.

Just my 2 cents.

[Frost]

I have a question regarding people saying that this or that can't be used in "sport fighting" or those that make the distinction that the skills aren't transferable....

Let's assume you have 4 oz gloves on and a mouthpiece and the rules only state that you can't hit the eyes, the spine, or the balls.

What can't you do that is wing chun?

because most wing chun guys dont like to bang, they prefer to chi sao

[monji112000]

Sorry dude but I am a former Marine and so is Phil. I never saw anything like that when I was in and I'll bet Phil didn't either.

I agree with your mentally and physically tough comment though, add a lot of aggression with some basic training to that and you have one tuff hombre.

The thing is the military doesn't focus much on hand to hand. The programs are kind of laid out but its up to the individual to pursue them. There is too much other stuff that is too important that gets a higher priority in the training schedule.

I will admit you get a fair amount in boot/basic but to a large degree that is to build toughness and aggression and the warrior mentality, not great hand to hand skills.

Not if you're well trained. You are actually safer fighting as part of the unit. Doesn't matter if the guy banging on your shield is a great swordsman if your buddies spear is poking him in the guts or slashing him across the shins under your shield.

The individual skills only came into play if the shield wall is flanked or breaks.



Sorry dude, I train with active marines, navy seals and rangers. I live in the biggest military area on the east coast. Every branch brings in these jokers who con higher up people into believing they have some magic fighting style that can win against anyone. Its better than MMA, and its secret. :D
I hear the stories about it all the time... Oh you should have seen the guy today man, he had this stance and punch like... (insert something unrealistic).

:D

Some of the stuff you need clearance to learn. Its so secret we (the us government) doesn't want anyone to know the techniques so no other military can train against it.


Military fighting has very little to do with highly skilled martial artists. I am in not way degrading our military.

[m1k3]

Sorry dude, I train with active marines, navy seals and rangers. I live in the biggest military area on the east coast. Every branch brings in these jokers who con higher up people into believing they have some magic fighting style that can win against anyone. Its better than MMA, and its secret. :D
I hear the stories about it all the time... Oh you should have seen the guy today man, he had this stance and punch like... (insert something unrealistic).

:D

Some of the stuff you need clearance to learn. Its so secret we (the us government) doesn't want anyone to know the techniques so no other military can train against it.


Military fighting has very little to do with highly skilled martial artists. I am in not way degrading our military.

I agree with you. H2H just isn't a high priority and rightly so.
As for people being brought in, yeah that sh1t happens, but usually the BS doesn't make it into the official program.

And what ever you want to train on your own feel free. Although I haven't heard of any jarheads or paratroopers doing yellow bamboo yet.
:D

[monji112000]

I agree with you. H2H just isn't a high priority and rightly so.
As for people being brought in, yeah that sh1t happens, but usually the BS doesn't make it into the official program.

And what ever you want to train on your own feel free. Although I haven't heard of any jarheads or paratroopers doing yellow bamboo yet.
:D

I don't think the marines have it in the "official program", but I know of two other branches that have stuff like that. I know for a fact one of them you need clearance to learn, and you have to sign paper work to legally be allowed to look at the techniques.

[Frost]

Why doesn't MMA allow eagle claws to the throat?

It used to be allowed in ancient Pankration...

(Dang, my 1,000th post!)

one handed chokes were allowed back in the day, but these days you cant crush the wind pipe or anything like that

(not to mention that kind of choke just begs please break my arm)

[Frost]

D@mn.



I wonder about that. I'd put it in the moderately-high success column at least, because it's pretty easy to do and it's reasonably effective. The trachea is very fragile, and I'd say it takes less than two seconds to crush the windpipe once the fingers are around it.

Have you ever tried functioning when someone's thumb and fingers are moderately squeezing your trachea? it's VERY uncomfortable, and there is a tendency to panic/submit quickly. I guess it could be overcome, but better be quick!

Anyhow, although it's not allowed in the ring, it once was - perhaps to too great effect? A legitimate "2 d3ad1y for the Ring" technique perhaps? :D

not really cant remember anyone winning a fight with it, they banned a lot of things that the comission deemed too dangerous, elbows to the spine, shots to the back of head, without any proof of them working

[m1k3]

The problem with the trachea grab is that someone used to boxing or grappling instinctively keeps their chin tucked. With the chin tucked it's really hard to pull off that choke with getting armbared or taking a right cross.:p

[Hardwork108]

I wonder about that. I'd put it in the moderately-high success column at least, because it's pretty easy to do and it's reasonably effective. The trachea is very fragile, and I'd say it takes less than two seconds to crush the windpipe once the fingers are around it.
It would be even easier for someone who has genuinely trained a style such as Tiger Claw. How many of the people who criticize the TCMAs have an idea of what an authentic exponent of this style would be capable of?

[Hardwork108]

not really cant remember anyone winning a fight with it,
Do you remember anyone winning a fight by punching someone's wind pipe? Can you remember anyone winning a fight by hitting someone's neck? Or elbowing their spinal column?

I ask because all of the above have ARE functional techniques!


they banned a lot of things that the comission deemed too dangerous, elbows to the spine, shots to the back of head, without any proof of them working

Oh, they work alright, but you need to perhaps focusing on the individual methodologies that make them work. If you don't, then that is your choice as well, but please do not make any assumptions!

[bennyvt]

In sparing with the small ufc type gloves, the only things I have found that don't work as well are the kicks. We don't spar with shoes so my normal reaction to kick tend to hurt me as much if not more then them. Kicking with the feet is fine with shoes as any sport/ma that trains without shoes generally kicks with the shin. I haven't had a problem doing any hand techniques with the gloves.

[SoCo KungFu]

You guys are aware that recently a USC football player survived a weight lifting accident where 275lbs of weight slipped and crashed onto his neck while benchpressing, right? Granted he needed emergency surgery. The point being though, its highly doubtful you are just going to just up and inflict someone with that kind of force. Getting punched in the larynx hurts yes, it can be quite painful. So does getting clinched around it. The funny thing is those holds are rather easy to defeat, seriously it may be the only time that crappy chi'na thumb lock may actually work. Now if you go with a full out strangle hold, that's another issue. And while they suck, someone really intent on hurting you might not even be phased by a strike there. Kinda one of those things like nut checks, it might work but it might not.

At any rate, if you do inflict that kind of force to crush someones larynx, chances are its going to be another injury that would be more severe, like potential vascular sheering, nerve damage or C-spine injury.

But no, as cool as it was to see, you aren't just going to Steven Seagal someone's larynx out their throat like the movies. I don't care how good your tiger claw may be...

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/865277-overview

[Frost]

Do you remember anyone winning a fight by punching someone's wind pipe? Can you remember anyone winning a fight by hitting someone's neck? Or elbowing their spinal column?

I ask because all of the above have ARE functional techniques!



Oh, they work alright, but you need to perhaps focusing on the individual methodologies that make them work. If you don't, then that is your choice as well, but please do not make any assumptions!

How do you know they work, have you done them to someone or just read about it on the net?

let me rephrase, when they were allowed in the ring no fights are recorded to have been won using these techniques, the only victory recorded from a move now considered ilegal was from a groin strike...actually the guy got side control (a grappling position) and then teed off with a dozen punches to the groin

[Frost]

You guys are aware that recently a USC football player survived a weight lifting accident where 275lbs of weight slipped and crashed onto his neck while benchpressing, right? Granted he needed emergency surgery. The point being though, its highly doubtful you are just going to just up and inflict someone with that kind of force. Getting punched in the larynx hurts yes, it can be quite painful. So does getting clinched around it. The funny thing is those holds are rather easy to defeat, seriously it may be the only time that crappy chi'na thumb lock may actually work. Now if you go with a full out strangle hold, that's another issue. And while they suck, someone really intent on hurting you might not even be phased by a strike there. Kinda one of those things like nut checks, it might work but it might not.

At any rate, if you do inflict that kind of force to crush someones larynx, chances are its going to be another injury that would be more severe, like potential vascular sheering, nerve damage or C-spine injury.

But no, as cool as it was to see, you aren't just going to Steven Seagal someone's larynx out their throat like the movies. I don't care how good your tiger claw may be...

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/865277-overview

you are aware that the weight bar wasn't trained in proper tigerclaw kung fu....if it was the fight might have ended differently:)

who here hasnt been hit in the throat, dropped on his head etc in the course of grappling or sparring, things happen and as you pointed out the neck and throat is stronger than given credit by most people

[bennyvt]

I think strikes to the throat work well. I have never been one for using alot of throat strikes, But have copped a couple and it takes a bit to recover. While not being, "a finisher" it would give vital seconds for a finish or takedown/sub etc.
WSL hit a guy in the throat in a fight and it took long enough for him to wake up that they were worried they had done real permanant damage. This is why later he didn't encourage people to do throat strikes in chi sao, also that people tend to just chop not strike properly.

[Dragonzbane76]

let me rephrase, when they were allowed in the ring no fights are recorded to have been won using these techniques, the only victory recorded from a move now considered ilegal was from a groin strike...actually the guy got side control (a grappling position) and then teed off with a dozen punches to the groin
keith hackney???

he was awesome...

[Frost]

keith hackney???

he was awesome...

yep on joe son who probably deserved it going on his later police record

[SoCo KungFu]

you are aware that the weight bar wasn't trained in proper tigerclaw kung fu....if it was the fight might have ended differently:)

who here hasnt been hit in the throat, dropped on his head etc in the course of grappling or sparring, things happen and as you pointed out the neck and throat is stronger than given credit by most people

Yes and for good reason. Anatomically the throat is in a great number of animals, one of if not the most vulnerable area on the body. You have major vasculature, nerve bundles, C-spine, airway all located in that little confine of space. Evolution demanded that it be protected. It just took it a different direction. Rather than being surrounded by bone (minus the spine of course) its been given strong musculature and pliability in composition.

One would think, if simple throat punches were doing everyone in, we'd have never made it this long yeah?

[Hardwork108]

How do you know they work, have you done them to someone or just read about it on the net?
How do you know that they don't work, have you done them to someone and failed? And if so, why not blame your own poor quality of instruction/training, instead of the combined traditional martial arts of Japan and China?


let me rephrase, when they were allowed in the ring no fights are recorded to have been won using these techniques, the only victory recorded from a move now considered ilegal was from a groin strike...actually the guy got side control (a grappling position) and then teed off with a dozen punches to the groin
What you have emphasized further validates my comments on the difference between the street scenario and that of the sports tournaments.

Have a look here, strike to the neck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pBCMzwhJI

As for elbowing the spine working: At 2:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYKJDQVZBNc&feature=related

As for strikes to the wind pipe, there have been deaths due to these both in the US and the UK. At least one of the US incidents were referred to in this very forum, in the past.


.

[Hardwork108]

you are aware that the weight bar wasn't trained in proper tigerclaw kung fu....if it was the fight might have ended differently:)

I would suspect that the weight bar's knowledge of Tiger Claw kung fu was more or less, the same level as yours.......



who here hasnt been hit in the throat, dropped on his head etc in the course of grappling or sparring, things happen and as you pointed out the neck and throat is stronger than given credit by most people
Just a hint to you and all the other heavy punch bag punchers and Olympic Weight lifters, there is an actual reason for the TCMA methodology of developing "relaxed" or "soft" power.........

[Frost]

How do you know that they don't work, have you done them to someone and failed? And if so, why not blame your own poor quality of instruction/training, instead of the combined traditional martial arts of Japan and China?


What you have emphasized further validates my comments on the difference between the street scenario and that of the sports tournaments.

Have a look here, strike to the neck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pBCMzwhJI

As for elbowing the spine working: At 2:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYKJDQVZBNc&feature=related

As for strikes to the wind pipe, there have been deaths due to these both in the US and the UK. At least one of the US incidents were referred to in this very forum, in the past.


.

im sure in your mind it does valid your arguement, please post a video of one of those deadly strikes killing someone or ripping out their throat. Better still show yourself using them since you know they work

that first video if anything proves my point, a guy outweighing someone by 100pounds+ and close to a foot in hieght elbows him in the spinal column and the result is what, death? destruction? being in a wheel chair for life? nope a muscle spasam which he could have fought through if necessary (notice how he went to he back legs up to defend himself, not face down dead :rolleyes: )

that second video proves what besides the fact you should keep your hands up and your chin down? i couldnt tell if it hit his throat, ear jaw or where ever

[Frost]

I would suspect that the weight bar's knowledge of Tiger Claw kung fu was more or less, the same level as yours................

and you say you done insult people :) Funny coming from a video trained idiot who's own instructor at a wing chun get together disowned him and called him strange and then chose to live like a spartan rather than train you :)



Just a hint to you and all the other heavy punch bag punchers and Olympic Weight lifters, there is an actual reason for the TCMA methodology of developing "relaxed" or "soft" power.........

just a hint for you, get out more go and find a real sifu...one that wont run away to the jungle to escape your strangeness :)

[SoCo KungFu]

im sure in your mind it does valid your arguement, please post a video of one of those deadly strikes killing someone or ripping out their throat. Better still show yourself using them since you know they work

that first video if anything proves my point, a guy outweighing someone by 100pounds+ and close to a foot in hieght elbows him in the spinal column and the result is what, death? destruction? being in a wheel chair for life? nope a muscle spasam which he could have fought through if necessary (notice how he went to he back legs up to defend himself, not face down dead :rolleyes: )

that second video proves what besides the fact you should keep your hands up and your chin down? i couldnt tell if it hit his throat, ear jaw or where ever

Not to mention he had already fought through a couple rounds as it was. Those kajukenbo guys need to work their take down defense.

[Dragonzbane76]

that second video proves what besides the fact you should keep your hands up and your chin down? i couldnt tell if it hit his throat, ear jaw or where ever

seen this video a good while ago. If your going to come at someone and take your shirt off wanting to fight at least come in with your hands up. :)




that first video if anything proves my point, a guy outweighing someone by 100pounds+ and close to a foot in hieght elbows him in the spinal column and the result is what, death? destruction? being in a wheel chair for life? nope a muscle spasam which he could have fought through if necessary (notice how he went to he back legs up to defend himself, not face down dead )

I was kicked full in the back and still have back problems to this day from it while sparring. But at the time I didn't even notice it. Wasn't till that night that I went home and started having muscle spas. in back. I went to the doctor the next day and had 2 ribs dislocated off the spine pushed in.

I think the point is the human body is very resilent. Adren. dumps push the pain away at the time. In the "heat" of a fight you really don't feel a lot. Last time I fought I caught a kick square in the chest, it was a hard power kick but I trudged through it and clinched. Again didn't notice the pain till about an hour later after the fight was over.
Not saying a fight cannot be a one shot ordeal but someone with a good defense and adren. dump will be able to walk through a lot.

[Hardwork108]

im sure in your mind it does valid your arguement, please post a video of one of those deadly strikes killing someone or ripping out their throat. Better still show yourself using them since you know they work
People have been killed by strikes to their throats in street (bar,etc.) fights. I doubt that they were video taped....:rolleyes:


that first video if anything proves my point, a guy outweighing someone by 100pounds+ and close to a foot in hieght elbows him in the spinal column
Sorry, but you don't need to have that much of weight difference to hurt someone's spinal column with your elbow strike.

What you would need is an efficient power delivery, which is attainable through the training of genuine TCMA methodologies,which apparently don't exist in the kickboxing or MMA methodologies, or else you would have known about it? Lol.


and the result is what, death?
LOL! I doubt that the man was trying to cause death. They were just participating in some heavy sparring.


destruction?
Again, the intention to destroy, was not there.


being in a wheel chair for life?
Who knows, if that were to be a serious street fight, then the guy might have elbowed him harder, and even used some follow up techniques.



nope a muscle spasam which he could have fought through if necessary
That is your evaluation, and I believe it to be erroneous.


(notice how he went to he back legs up to defend himself, not face down dead :rolleyes: )
Yes, we all noticed that he was not dead....:rolleyes:


that second video proves what besides the fact you should keep your hands up and your chin down?
It proves my point! LOL

A powerful strike to the side of the neck will put you down. It momentarily restricts blood flow to the brain and that causes the knock down.

I will even tell you that in my Wing Chun practice we were always told to hit/punch the side of the neck (when entering through an angle), when available, instead of the jaw.

In Chow Gar, the side of the neck (and head) is a valid target, as well!


i couldnt tell if it hit his throat, ear jaw or where ever
He connected with the side of the neck and a little bit of the pimp's right side of the throat.

[SAAMAG]

You can always tell when you've got him flustered...he replies to every line.

[Dragonzbane76]

You can always tell when you've got him flustered...he replies to every line.
__________________

and usually that's followed with the "A" typical LOL....

[Hardwork108]

You can always tell when you've got him flustered...he replies to every line.

I responded to his "every line" because he made a mistake in "every line". I am just trying to educate him to the lesser known (for him) aspects of the TCMAs, so that he does not continue going through life, making clueless remarks in their regard.

Well, that is Frost for you........:rolleyes:

And as far as Dragonzbane76's knowledge of TCMA methodologies is concerned, then all I have to say is














LOL!


So please don't mock my charitable activities in this forum.:D


.

[Frost]

People have been killed by strikes to their throats in street (bar,etc.) fights. I doubt that they were video taped....:rolleyes:.

ok post a newspaper clip of it, or a report on a news web site of the last time it happened..that should be easy if its so deadly and such a good move
:)



Sorry, but you don't need to have that much of weight difference to hurt someone's spinal column with your elbow strike.

What you would need is an efficient power delivery, which is attainable through the training of genuine TCMA methodologies,which apparently don't exist in the kickboxing or MMA methodologies, or else you would have known about it? Lol..

in that case please post a clip of some one doing it to someone of a similar height and weight...not a giant should be easy to do :)

And also post a clip where serious damage was done, which is not the case in this clip and what you are talking about :D



LOL! I doubt that the man was trying to cause death. They were just participating in some heavy sparring..

that was not full contact sparring?! have you ever been hit by someone 100 pounds and a foot heavier...oh silly me you have never sparrred have you :)



Again, the intention to destroy, was not there.

Really so he didnt hit him as hard as he could and then followed up and had to be called off....you really dont spar or train do you :)

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1029694]
Who knows, if that were to be a serious street fight, then the guy might have elbowed him harder, and even used some follow up techniques.



That is your evaluation, and I believe it to be erroneous.


Yes, we all noticed that he was not dead....:rolleyes:.

the was not dead, or incapable of defending himself, notice he fall to an open guard with his legs up to defend himself, if you knew anything about fighting you would realise this was a good defensive position one taken by someone in fulll control of his body and mind



It proves my point! LOL

you point was it was a deadly technique...firstly we cant say for sure where it landed, and secondly he got up ok, no worse than a knock down from a cross or hook...maybe these should be banned as super eadly strikes too? :rolleyes:

A powerful strike to the side of the neck will put you down. It momentarily restricts blood flow to the brain and that causes the knock down.

I will even tell you that in my Wing Chun practice we were always told to hit/punch the side of the neck (when entering through an angle), when available, instead of the jaw.

In Chow Gar, the side of the neck (and head) is a valid target, as well!


He connected with the side of the neck and a little bit of the pimp's right side of the throat.


you point was it was a deadly technique...firstly we cant say for sure where it landed, and secondly he got up ok, no worse than a knock down from a cross or hook...maybe these should be banned as super eadly strikes too? :rolleyes:

[Frost]

Not to mention he had already fought through a couple rounds as it was. Those kajukenbo guys need to work their take down defense.

no need if the rules dont allow for a ground fight...if you fight under silly rules then you dont need to work on the holes in your game :)

[m1k3]

HW108, here is a simple question, what have YOU done using these techniques? Have you ever used them successfully? Please tell us about it. :confused:

I KNOW what I am doing in BJJ work because I have point joint locks on people, I have even put people to sleep with chokes. I also have had joint locks put on me and have been choked to almost passing out (guess I can tap faster than some people). My elbow is still sore from an arm bar that was put on me in class last Tuesday. :eek:

The problem is you engage in fantasy fu as far as I can tell. So show me how I'm wrong and tell about the times YOU have used these skills. :rolleyes:

Son, its time to put up or shut up.

[Dragonzbane76]

I KNOW what I am doing in BJJ work because I have point joint locks on people, I have even put people to sleep with chokes. I also have had joint locks put on me and have been choked to almost passing out (guess I can tap faster than some people). My elbow is still sore from an arm bar that was put on me in class last Tuesday.

The problem is you engage in fantasy fu as far as I can tell. So show me how I'm wrong and tell about the times YOU have used these skills.

Son, its time to put up or shut up.

problem is he won't. He will lead on a marry chase dancing away from the point and the facts and insult you in the process when you ask. Guarantee 100%

[Frost]

problem is he won't. He will lead on a marry chase dancing away from the point and the facts and insult you in the process when you ask. Guarantee 100%

lets be fair, his wing chun teacher disowned him and legged it to the jungle, god knows what little chow gar he got and i doubt he even trains now, so he has to insult and dance because he cant actually answer anything

[Phil Redmond]

Sorry Phil but I have to disagree with you on some of this. TMA's are traditionally trained as dueling arts, one on one, two on one etc. Military combat training includes this but moves well beyond it with unit tactics and fighting as part of a group.
That fact that you wrote was included proves my point that some ancient warriors did use TMAs in warfare.



This is why all the bs about H2H training in the military isn't really that important. Your fighter trained in a military environment will have more skills that cross over into a dueling environment than the duelist will have that cross over into a military environment.
Firearms etc. changed that. Also, the H2H I got in the Corps was weak at best.
But we all should remember that MMA is based on TMA. Maybe that why they use the term Mixed "Martial Arts".

[Phil Redmond]

The problem with the trachea grab is that someone used to boxing or grappling instinctively keeps their chin tucked. With the chin tucked it's really hard to pull off that choke with getting armbared or taking a right cross.:p
Anything can be pulled of if done with the right timing. Also, you're in South Jersey and I've asked before about meeting up but never got a response from you. I have no problem meeting with other martial artists. I have friends in many martial arts. I think meeting other martial artists is a good thing. Hopefully you think the same way.
Semper Fi

[Hardwork108]

ok post a newspaper clip of it, or a report on a news web site of the last time it happened..that should be easy if its so deadly and such a good move
:)
It has happened. It was referred to in this forum, if memory serves me right. There is a small possibility that I saw the reference to it in the Karate Forums. However, you are can choose not to believe it and continue living in fantasy MMA land....LOL

By the way, many years ago I was living in the Uk (not the last time round) and ther was a case of a man who killed another man by Karate chopping him in the neck. Again, you don't want to believe it, then don't.:rolleyes:




in that case please post a clip of some one doing it to someone of a similar height and weight...not a giant should be easy to do :)
I don't have a clip of that. The reason could well be that many people do not train that particular technique well enough to pull it off, people just like you, I suppose....LOL


And also post a clip where serious damage was done, which is not the case in this clip and what you are talking about :D
Sorry, I don't have a clip of a fighter murdering or maiming another fighter by elbowing their spinal cord with the intention of destroying their lives....:rolleyes:



that was not full contact sparring?! have you ever been hit by someone 100 pounds and a foot heavier...oh silly me you have never sparrred have you :)
Of course it was full contact sparring. My point was that no one was trying to break bones or maim his training partner. You have not had any real fights, have you? You think that it is all the same....LOL


Really so he didnt hit him as hard as he could and then followed up and had to be called off....you really dont spar or train do you :)
Yes, really. He did not hit him as hard as he could, he hit him hard enough to hurt him. The reason being that he knew that in the event of being taken down he was never going to get hurt, or even choked out, because of the RULES of that particular scenario.




the was not dead, or incapable of defending himself, notice he fall to an open guard with his legs up to defend himself, if you knew anything about fighting you would realise this was a good defensive position one taken by someone in fulll control of his body and mind
If you knew anything about fighting then you would have known that in a real fight, he would have been dead, as his opponent would have followed up and finished him. That is, if he had not elbowed him hard enough to incapacitate him, in the first place......!





you point was it was a deadly technique...
My point is that it is an EFFECTIVE TECHNIQUE AND THE VIDEO PROVED IT!


firstly we cant say for sure where it landed,
YOU can't say for sure where it landed, because if you did, then it would show you to be clueless about certain TCMA targets, that seem to be eternal "mysteries" to the kung fu-clueless MMA-ists who seem to be currently haunting this forum.....LOL


and secondly he got up ok, no worse than a knock down from a cross or hook...
That would be because the karate instructor did not use full power, nor a smaller striking surface???????????


maybe these should be banned as super eadly strikes too? :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

You know, most of you MMA guys have a fair bit of knowledge when discussing your own training methodologies, but your level of cluelessness is astounding when you start critiquing the TCMA methodologies.

This raises the question as to why you keep on insisting on putting your foots in your mouths, discussing subject matters and methodologies that are way above your heads.?:confused:

[Hardwork108]

HW108, here is a simple question, what have YOU done using these techniques? Have you ever used them successfully? Please tell us about it. :confused:
My sparring training up to now has been stand up. I have knowledge of certain anti take down techniques, but I do not fight competitions, and don't have any intention of doing so, nor to seriously injure my sparring partners.

If I had wanted to participate in competitions, then I would have practiced kick boxing and/or MMA, just like you guys....LOL


I KNOW what I am doing in BJJ work because I have point joint locks on people, I have even put people to sleep with chokes.
You know, you are putting me to sleep without chokes......


I also have had joint locks put on me and have been choked to almost passing out (guess I can tap faster than some people).
I know the feeling. I mean first it was Frost's "illuminating":rolleyes: post on the TCMA neck striking methodology, and now your post, testing my TCMA knowledge, from your MMA perspective. It is a wonder I have not passed out yet.... :eek::confused::D


My elbow is still sore from an arm bar that was put on me in class last Tuesday. :eek:
Frost and Dragonzbane's elbows are sore from doing something else, but lets not go there....:eek:....LOL!


The problem is you engage in fantasy fu as far as I can tell. So show me how I'm wrong and tell about the times YOU have used these skills. :rolleyes:
I do not fight in sports competitions. I mentioned the techniques that work and provided video evidence of them stopping people in their tracks (not killing or maiming them,:rolleyes:).

So, if I was dealing with normal people, then that would have been the end of discussion, but I am apparently dealing with people who let their egos, take over their logic.


Son, its time to put up or shut up.

I wish that some of you guys would "put up" in the MMA forums, where your lack of TCMA knowledge would not constantly embarrass you!

[Hardwork108]

lets be fair, his wing chun teacher disowned him and legged it to the jungle, god knows what little chow gar he got and i doubt he even trains now, so he has to insult and dance because he cant actually answer anything
Interesting that every time your TCMA "knowledge" is proven to be totally non-existant, you MMA-ists revert to lies and slander.

Well, I don't mind, as long as I am showing your TCMA cluelessness to the millions of web surfers....LOL!

[Frost]

Interesting that every time your TCMA "knowledge" is proven to be totally non-existant, you MMA-ists revert to lies and slander.

Well, I don't mind, as long as I am showing your TCMA cluelessness to the millions of web surfers....LOL!

ok so your wing chun teacher didnt run off to the jungle to escape you :rolleyes:and you trained chow gar with an authentic master...just not anyone named Yip or Whitrod:rolleyes:

because you claim to have trained with authentic chinese masters, your wing chun teacher was not a master (according to those at the seminar/meeting he turned up at his skill level wasnt that impressive) and you wont name the chow gar master you trained with...so you are full of it :)

and i find it funny you always throw out insults then cry when people throw them back at you...god how old are you 6? take of the chinese robes, stop watching vidoes on youtube and pretending its you and actually go find a teacher :)

[Dragonzbane76]

Frost and Dragonzbane's elbows are sore from doing something else, but lets not go there........LOL!

and your A$$ is probably sore from the reaming you take spartan style every night. lol:rolleyes:

[m1k3]

Hardwork, stop dancing around the question. Have YOU every used any of these techniques YOU were discussing? :confused:

[Wayfaring]

Interesting that every time your TCMA "knowledge" is proven to be totally non-existant, you MMA-ists revert to lies and slander.

Well, I don't mind, as long as I am showing your TCMA cluelessness to the millions of web surfers....LOL!

Why are you here when you could be living in Tibet and meditating under cool mountain stream waterfalls and washing the sandals of your "authentic kung-fu teacher"?

[t_niehoff]

(Now I know the wiki isn't the best source for acurate info but at least it can be a stepping stone for further research).

First of al MMA comes from TMAs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts
(For the MMA jockriders Pankration was way before MMA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration )

TMAs used in warfare:
Kalarippayattu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalarippayattu
http://www.yourdiscovery.com/martialarts/southasia/kalaripayatta/index.shtml

Muay Boran:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Boran

Samurai:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai

Jiujitsu:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiujitsu

Filipino Martial arts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_martial_arts
I found so many more from places like Iran, etc.

Phil,

It's great that you are doing some research.

MMA, however, doesn't come from TMAs. MMA isn't a style, but a rule set (for competition).

But I do agree that the functional martial arts (aka "combative sports"), judo, BJJ, boxing, wrestling, sambo, MT, etc. do come from TMAs. What makes them functional is that they adopted the sport-model and its associated training approach (performance-based) which made them vastly superior to TMAs they came from.

If you do some more research, you will find, for example, that when Kano took traditional japanese jiujitsu (those so-called "battlefield tested" arts) and adopted the western sport-model to it, his new jiujitsu, judo, completely devastated the traditional arts. The same happened when the sport model was adopted by swordman in Japan.


BTW, here's a clip of that same BaGua guy, Moashan (the same one who was schooled by the MT fighter), fighting a 52-blocks (LOL!) guy, Lyte Burly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BokzIHXFg4o

Why is it when people really fight -- whether in a cage or the street or a schoolyard -- it always ends up looking like MMA? Or, in the case of scrubs like these, like bad MMA?

If that's what fighting is going to really be like (and it is), doesn't it make sense to prepare for that, to train for that?

Instead of training for some imaginary view of fighting (like the battlefield)?

[Eric_H]

Instead of training for some imaginary view of fighting (like the battlefield)?


The martial battlefield isn't imaginary, it's a place in warfare where many men died every day. This went on for what? the last X thousands of years before the rifle took over the battlefield? These soldiers had to train day in and out at fighting because their lives literally depended on it.

Do martial battlefields exist in the same way today? Heck no (obviously). Are 99.99% of people who train martial arts going to be there? Also Heck no.

The strategy will be different when you have no choice but to commit to fighting or dying. A civilian arts' focus is far different, it's more about surviving and getting away than eradicating the enemy or die trying.

MMA is both a style of fighting and a ruleset. Same as Judo or Boxing.

Funny you should choose to keep picking on Maoshan. Good or Bad, at least he has some videos out there. Where are yours Terence?

[Wayfaring]

http://www.history-of-armor.com/index.html

[t_niehoff]

The martial battlefield isn't imaginary, it's a place in warfare where many men died every day. This went on for what? the last X thousands of years before the rifle took over the battlefield? These soldiers had to train day in and out at fighting because their lives literally depended on it.


Yes, soldiers fought for thousands of years on the battlefield. And they trained to fight. But -- and this is the significant "but" -- that doesn't mean that HOW they trained produced particularly good results.

As I said, the traditional japanese jiujitsu was developed/used on the battlefield. It was trained by professional soldiers, the warrior class (samurai). Yet, when Kano took those arts and changed how it was trained (by adopting a western sport approach), his guys completely destroyed the traditionally trained fighters.

And this scenario is repeated every time a traditional art adopts a sport approach. Because sport is a far superior way of training. And it produces far superior results.

So while the soldiers were training the best way they knew how (at the time) -- they didn't know about the sport approach -- their way of training wasn't particularly good. And since everyone was using the same poor way of training, the training was relative (I train poorly and you train poorly), and the results relative. Today, however, when you see sport-trained fighters meet traditionally-only trained fighters, the training isn't relative (two poorly trained people fighting) but a well-trained fighter meeting a poorly trained fighters. Which invariably leads to a Maoshan-Nakmeezy.



Do martial battlefields exist in the same way today? Heck no (obviously). Are 99.99% of people who train martial arts going to be there? Also Heck no.

The strategy will be different when you have no choice but to commit to fighting or dying. A civilian arts' focus is far different, it's more about surviving and getting away than eradicating the enemy or die trying.


I don't know what a "civilian art6" is -- since there are all kinds of "civilian arts."

The issue here isn't whether something is civilian or military but rather how we (as human beings) best develop high levels of physical (fighting) skill. The answer is through the sport approach since it is performance-based.



MMA is both a style of fighting and a ruleset. Same as Judo or Boxing.


MMA is a sport and a ruleset. But it is not a style, since you can do anything you like -- there are no fixed/limited techniques like there are in judo and boxing. Much in the same way submission grappling is a ruleset/sport but is not a style (you can train any art/style that you want or mix-and-match or whatever).



Funny you should choose to keep picking on Maoshan. Good or Bad, at least he has some videos out there. Where are yours Terence?

I don't make videos of myself. There are already far too, too many videos of WCK "practitioners" out there (let mes how you the SNT and chi sao one more time!). Also I'm not so delusional as to believe myself to be some authority or some noteworthy example demonstrating to others how things "should" be done. As I have repeatedly said, I'm not that good. And I think that the making of videos should be left to people who have proved themselves (by fighting) to be really, really very good.

[Eric_H]

As I said, the traditional japanese jiujitsu was developed/used on the battlefield. It was trained by professional soldiers, the warrior class (samurai). Yet, when Kano took those arts and changed how it was trained (by adopting a western sport approach), his guys completely destroyed the traditionally trained fighters.

And this scenario is repeated every time a traditional art adopts a sport approach. Because sport is a far superior way of training. And it produces far superior results.



It is inarguable that Kano's Judo shocked the ju-jitsu world. However, were the Ju-Jitsu people he faced ones that trained it like professional soldiers? (It's original intent?) Did they have the experience is using it in life or death scenario? Did they treat the encounter like a life or death scenario? If not, on any of the above, it's no wonder the Judo guys won. There is certainly something of value in that for both sides.



So while the soldiers were training the best way they knew how (at the time) -- they didn't know about the sport approach -- their way of training wasn't particularly good. And since everyone was using the same poor way of training, the training was relative (I train poorly and you train poorly), and the results relative.


Sports are limited by their rules, if you don't train to work within that ruleset to your maximum potential, someone who does will likely destroy you. That's just common wisdom.



Today, however, when you see sport-trained fighters meet traditionally-only trained fighters, the training isn't relative (two poorly trained people fighting) but a well-trained fighter meeting a poorly trained fighters. Which invariably leads to a Maoshan-Nakmeezy.


Predominantly, sport trained fighters are winning. There's no argument there.




I don't know what a "civilian art6" is -- since there are all kinds of "civilian arts."

The issue here isn't whether something is civilian or military but rather how we (as human beings) best develop high levels of physical (fighting) skill. The answer is through the sport approach since it is performance-based.


Clarifying again, the difference in mindset. Things that are appropriate for a wartime art may not be applicable for a peacetime art. I am reminded of a recent news story in which marine who on getting home from Iraq ended up opening fire with a rifle on his neighbors for harrassing him and brandishing weapons. That is an absolutely appropriate battlefield response, it is not however an appropriate civilian response. That's why cops don't train the same as the army.




MMA is a sport and a ruleset. But it is not a style, since you can do anything you like -- there are no fixed/limited techniques like there are in judo and boxing. Much in the same way submission grappling is a ruleset/sport but is not a style (you can train any art/style that you want or mix-and-match or whatever).


There are limitations on technique, otherwise there would be no rules and MMA would not be legitimized as a sport. You "can" mix and match whatever you want, but predominantly the rule set favors boxing/kickboxing, wrestling, and BJJ. Are they valid arts? Yep. Are they going to look more valid competing under favorable rule sets? Yep.



I don't make videos of myself. There are already far too, too many videos of WCK "practitioners" out there (let mes how you the SNT and chi sao one more time!). Also I'm not so delusional as to believe myself to be some authority or some noteworthy example demonstrating to others how things "should" be done. As I have repeatedly said, I'm not that good. And I think that the making of videos should be left to people who have proved themselves (by fighting) to be really, really very good.

By your logic then, only Geroges St. Pierre and Anderson Silva should be making videos. There's nothing wrong making videos and showing where you are at in developing fighting skill. There is something wrong claiming to be an authority on fighting if you don't have a decent record professional/amateur/whatever. FWIW, I don't see Maoshan claiming to be an authority.

But you are right, the world doesn't need any more SNT videos...ugh...

[m1k3]

Eric, T., did either of you ever serve in the military? Just curious.

[t_niehoff]

It is inarguable that Kano's Judo shocked the ju-jitsu world.


And whenever traditional arts have adopted the sport-model, they make rapid and huge advancement in technique, skill, etc.



However, were the Ju-Jitsu people he faced ones that trained it like professional soldiers? (It's original intent?) Did they have the experience is using it in life or death scenario? Did they treat the encounter like a life or death scenario? If not, on any of the above, it's no wonder the Judo guys won. There is certainly something of value in that for both sides.


What difference does that matter? Do you believe that people suddenly -- and magically -- have more fighting skill or more conditioning when it becomes a fight to the death as opposed to a sporting contest?



Sports are limited by their rules, if you don't train to work within that ruleset to your maximum potential, someone who does will likely destroy you. That's just common wisdom.


Yes, sports are limited by their rules. So what?

People are limited by their performance ability. The sport model (of functional training) vastly increases our potential performance ability (how good we can become). It's not so much a matter of what possible things you may be able to try to do but how well you can do whatever it is.



Predominantly, sport trained fighters are winning. There's no argument there.


Except in rare cases, they always win.



Clarifying again, the difference in mindset. Things that are appropriate for a wartime art may not be applicable for a peacetime art. I am reminded of a recent news story in which marine who on getting home from Iraq ended up opening fire with a rifle on his neighbors for harrassing him and brandishing weapons. That is an absolutely appropriate battlefield response, it is not however an appropriate civilian response. That's why cops don't train the same as the army.


This is a red herring. Of course how we behave in wartime or when fighting for our life will not be appropriate for sport. What has this to do with anything?

How can we best develop fighting skill? That's the issue. How we behave with that skill is something else.



There are limitations on technique, otherwise there would be no rules and MMA would not be legitimized as a sport. You "can" mix and match whatever you want, but predominantly the rule set favors boxing/kickboxing, wrestling, and BJJ. Are they valid arts? Yep. Are they going to look more valid competing under favorable rule sets? Yep.


Of course there are limitations on technique if combative sports. That's precisely one of the important things that makes the sport-model superior. The sport-limitation of only including in the sport those things that we can really and truly do (perform) both in practice and in competition, is what permits us to develop high levels of skill (since we can then really practicing doing them just as we will do them).

For example, how can you really practice poking your opponent's eyes? You can't. If we did, we wouldn't have training partners very long. So the sport way of thinking is why include something (like poking the eyes) that we can't really practice and so can't really develop much in the way of skill doing (since we never really do it)? Why not instead just practice doing those things we can really practice, and so get much better at those things. Then when you fight some traditional guy who is trying to poke your eye but has very little skill (since he never could really practice doing it), you punch his lights out since you've been really practicing punching people's lights out.



By your logic then, only Geroges St. Pierre and Anderson Silva should be making videos.


They certainly could make videos. But I'm not saying only them -- but that anyone who does be very highly skilled.



There's nothing wrong making videos and showing where you are at in developing fighting skill.


Well, if people want to make fools of themselves on video, that's their prerogative. But just because they want to do that doesn't mean I should.



There is something wrong claiming to be an authority on fighting if you don't have a decent record professional/amateur/whatever. FWIW, I don't see Maoshan claiming to be an authority.


Most people don't explicitly claim to be authorities. He teaches (and uses the title "sifu" to identify himself). He shows others how to do ba gua

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEfW40rNB5c



But you are right, the world doesn't need any more SNT videos...ugh...

I'm glad we agree.

[SoCo KungFu]

I don't know why people keep going back to the "battlefield" argument. Its over the top ridiculous. You want to know the truth about "battlefield" training? Its sucks monkey ****!

They didn't have military like we do today. You know, where we actually try to preserve our own numbers and such. You all seem to be under this myth that warriors of the past were these highly trained kung fu killing machines. They were f'n peasants and slaves! They get conscripted into a regional force, given mediocre equipment and some rudimentary training and thrown in large numbers at other unequipped, rudimentary trained peasants and slaves. They weren't warlords bent on domination. They were scared ****less they were going to die. Which was quite likely to happen and why there was so much turnover in militaries of past.

Ironically, these well trained generals and warrior classes and nobles spending all their life training and all that nonsense, they were the commanders and strategists. They were the ones LEAST likely to actually engage in physical combat...

Look at how the combat actually transpired. Archery, cavalry, infantry. Pretty much the same concept where ever you went. Generals in the back, the armies were just fodder for the most part. They weren't highly trained or equipped, because they were expected to die. Victory meant either outnumbering your enemy or enacting a strategy that allowed you to allow more or your numbers to engage less of their numbers at any given time.

This is why "military" training is so crappy for civilian use. Even today, yes we actually train soldiers in this day and age. Because we try not to lose large numbers in fighting. Its common for a soldier to live their time and retire. But even still, we use team tactics. Its not a 1 on 1 fight and its (mostly) from range. And that team involves much more than just grunts, we're talking armored infantry, air support, etc. Last time I checked I wasn't carrying a radio around to call in airstrikes on muggers. I do have some friends in CCT, maybe they'll let me sign out some of theirs.....

You guys have this romanticized image of image of what the battlefield used to be like. Its not what you all think.

The only thing close to what you guys are talking about would be the Roman legions or the Spartans. And that's because they're society was built around the ideal of warrior citizens as opposed to raising armies.

[Eric_H]

What difference does that matter? Do you believe that people suddenly -- and magically -- have more fighting skill or more conditioning when it becomes a fight to the death as opposed to a sporting contest?


No, i think people will inherently build more skill if they are training like their life depends on it. That's one of the cool things about sport fighting, you face a physical test every so often so it's harder to slack off. In addition if a fighter treats the confrontation as something you don't walk away from, they are likely to fight differently.



Yes, sports are limited by their rules. So what?


To reiterate again, someone more versed in a specific style of competition will have an edge in their chosen rule set.



This is a red herring. Of course how we behave in wartime or when fighting for our life will not be appropriate for sport. What has this to do with anything?


You just said that it didn't matter if someone if someone is fighting for their life or not. So which is it? Or are you talking out both sides of your mouth again? :cool:



How can we best develop fighting skill? That's the issue. How we behave with that skill is something else.


AHHH. So you do agree there's a difference in the mental part of how a person engages a situation. That's the point. Although seperate from the skill building it has a big effect on the application and choice of skill to apply



For example, how can you really practice poking your opponent's eyes? You can't.


It's pretty easy, practice landing a punch to their eye. Then practice a similar shaped attack that uses a finger poke. Logically if you can land the punch you can land the poke. What's the big deal with that? There was an MMA fight on CBS where it was stopped because the one guy poked the other's eye as the fighter's hand was medically incapable of forming a fist when he threw a jab. It may not be "teh superz d3adly 3y3 poke" of legend, but it was a fight ender.




Most people don't explicitly claim to be authorities. He teaches (and uses the title "sifu" to identify himself). He shows others how to do ba gua

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEfW40rNB5c


Bagua's a big art. FWIW, he may not have good fighting skill, and potentially should not be preaching how to fight with it. However he may be able to teach body mechanics or philosophy/strategy that can be used in bagua style fighting. Ergo, he can be qualified to be a coach in certain areas of the martial art, but not the whole thing. Sad thing is, you don't know who has what when they hide behind the "Sifu" title.



I'm glad we agree.


Hell sure must be frosty today ;)

[Eric_H]

They didn't have military like we do today. You know, where we actually try to preserve our own numbers and such. You all seem to be under this myth that warriors of the past were these highly trained kung fu killing machines. They were f'n peasants and slaves! They get conscripted into a regional force, given mediocre equipment and some rudimentary training and thrown in large numbers at other unequipped, rudimentary trained peasants and slaves. They weren't warlords bent on domination. They were scared ****less they were going to die. Which was quite likely to happen and why there was so much turnover in militaries of past.

Ironically, these well trained generals and warrior classes and nobles spending all their life training and all that nonsense, they were the commanders and strategists. They were the ones LEAST likely to actually engage in physical combat...



I know wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, but it's readily available, from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_China_(pre-1911)




Early Chinese armies, such as that of the Shang and Zhou, were based on chariots and bronze weapons, much like their contemporaries in western Asia and Egypt. These small armies were ill-trained, poorly equipped, and had poor endurance[5] However, by the Warring States Period, the introduction of iron weapons, crossbows, and cavalry revolutionized Chinese warfare. Professional standing armies replaced the unreliable peasant levies of old, and professional generals replaced aristocrats at the head of the army.[5] This occurred concurrently with the establishment of a centralized state that was to become the norm for China. Under the Qin and Han Dynasties, China was unified and its troops conquered territories in all directions, and established China's frontiers that would last to the present day. These victories ushered in a golden age for China.[6]








Look at how the combat actually transpired. Archery, cavalry, infantry. Pretty much the same concept where ever you went. Generals in the back, the armies were just fodder for the most part. They weren't highly trained or equipped, because they were expected to die. Victory meant either outnumbering your enemy or enacting a strategy that allowed you to allow more or your numbers to engage less of their numbers at any given time.


I was under the impression that commanders typically fought in the front until later in history when they figured out having their commanders die all the time was probably a bad idea. That may be western strategy though, I'll have to research some more. I'm unfamilliar with the chinese tactic in regards to leadership placement in army situations.




This is why "military" training is so crappy for civilian use. Even today, yes we actually train soldiers in this day and age. Because we try not to lose large numbers in fighting. Its common for a soldier to live their time and retire. But even still, we use team tactics. Its not a 1 on 1 fight and its (mostly) from range. And that team involves much more than just grunts, we're talking armored infantry, air support, etc. Last time I checked I wasn't carrying a radio around to call in airstrikes on muggers. I do have some friends in CCT, maybe they'll let me sign out some of theirs.....



As mentioned above, the advent and common use of the rifle changed tactics significantly, nobody is arguing that.




The only thing close to what you guys are talking about would be the Roman legions or the Spartans. And that's because they're society was built around the ideal of warrior citizens as opposed to raising armies.


See above in reference to professional standing armies.

[Wayfaring]

No, i think people will inherently build more skill if they are training like their life depends on it. That's one of the cool things about sport fighting, you face a physical test every so often so it's harder to slack off. In addition if a fighter treats the confrontation as something you don't walk away from, they are likely to fight differently.


IMO seeing people do their 6 week training camp for a fight and participating in some of that training, I do not see how that is significantly different than it would be if their life depended on it. In many ways it is similar motivation, as their livelihood depends on it.

Either way that is a far cry from how people train who talk about the arts they practice as too deadly for sport, or have some form of rationalization along those lines - such as people who claim they train for life and death situations, not for sporting fights.

I have yet to see someone who claims that who trains with anywhere near the intensity and dedication as one of the fighters in their 6 week training camps do. Nutrition, 2 a days 5 days a week, 1 a day 1 day, 1 day off, conditioning, technique, sparring, etc.

I have seen a number of those life and death mentality people try and train with amateur and pro fighters. With very few exceptions, life and death translates usually to a maximum of 90 seconds, or until someone gets hit really hard.

[t_niehoff]

No, i think people will inherently build more skill if they are training like their life depends on it. That's one of the cool things about sport fighting, you face a physical test every so often so it's harder to slack off. In addition if a fighter treats the confrontation as something you don't walk away from, they are likely to fight differently.


Again, you are missing the point. ONLY realistic training develops realistic skill. Doing unrealistic training, even if your believe your life depends on it, won't develop realistic skill. Sport training is realistic -- you practice really doing things just as you will do them against a genuinely resisting opponent (you really play the game). Things that work, you keep; things that don't you discard. Because you continually face realistic energy, resistance, attacks, defenses, etc. you develop skills to deal with realistic energy, resistance, attacks, defenses, etc. This is what keeps you on the realistic road. Unrealistic training (where you are not facing realistic energy, resistance, attacks, defenses, etc.) permit you to get away with all kinds of nonsense that won't really work under realistic conditions, so you begin to detour from the realistic road -- and the longer you do it, the further you go off into fantasy land.



To reiterate again, someone more versed in a specific style of competition will have an edge in their chosen rule set.


Sure, and that's because they develop greater skills.



You just said that it didn't matter if someone if someone is fighting for their life or not. So which is it? Or are you talking out both sides of your mouth again? :cool:


Why the smart ass? I thought we were having a decent conversation.

Having a skill and choosing how to use it are two different things. For example, I can be skilled at submission grappling, and in sport, I choose to stop when my opponent taps whereas if I am fighting for my life I choose to break my opponent's arm. Same skill, but how I choose to use it varies with the circumstances.

So, how do I develop the skill to break someone's arm? The evidence overwhelming proves it is through sport-style training.

If I have to train to fight for my life, should I choose the most effective way to develop skill or do something else?



AHHH. So you do agree there's a difference in the mental part of how a person engages a situation. That's the point. Although seperate from the skill building it has a big effect on the application and choice of skill to apply


Of course. And you agree that your mental aspect (whether life or death or sport) is separate from the skill building. That's my point. How we best -- most quickly, most effectively, and the levels that we can attain -- come from the sport-model of training.

Without skill, the mental aspect really isn't significant -- you want to break his arm, but won't have the ability to do it.



It's pretty easy, practice landing a punch to their eye. Then practice a similar shaped attack that uses a finger poke. Logically if you can land the punch you can land the poke. What's the big deal with that?


Do you see that this is a theory -- you BELIEVE this should work. In sport, you really DO it-- whatever it is -- not do one thing in the hope that you will be able to do something else (which is the definition of poor training). And by really doing it (under realistic conditions), you develop high levels of skill in doing it. You know it works because you are already doing it under realistic conditions.

And your theory -- like all theories -- fails to take into account numerous aspects. For example, like the probability of getting your fingers broken (by your opponent blocking your strike, by missing and hitting his skull, etc.) or how extremely difficult it is to hit a small, moving target like the eye when your opponent is trying to knock your head off, etc.



There was an MMA fight on CBS where it was stopped because the one guy poked the other's eye as the fighter's hand was medically incapable of forming a fist when he threw a jab. It may not be "teh superz d3adly 3y3 poke" of legend, but it was a fight ender.


Sure, accidents happen. People (including scrubs) hit holes in one. People hit basketball shots at the buzzer from the other end of the court. People hit winners off the "wood" of their racket. Etc. Should they rely on these things? The issue isn't whether someone has done something or can possibly do something but whether it is a high percentage move, what are the risks (is it high risk or low risk), can you effectively train it by really doing it, etc.



Bagua's a big art. FWIW, he may not have good fighting skill, and potentially should not be preaching how to fight with it. However he may be able to teach body mechanics or philosophy/strategy that can be used in bagua style fighting.


How can he teach a skill that he doesn't have (know how to do)? If you are a terrible boxer, do you think that you should be teaching others how to box? Should bad golfers be coaching others on how to play golf?



Ergo, he can be qualified to be a coach in certain areas of the martial art, but not the whole thing. Sad thing is, you don't know who has what when they hide behind the "Sifu" title.


I agree with you to an extent. I think a bad golfer can teach a beginner the basics of the game -- with the understanding that I am a terrible golfer and this is just a low-level intro. This happens in all sports.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you do some more research, you will find, for example, that when Kano took traditional japanese jiujitsu (those so-called "battlefield tested" arts) and adopted the western sport-model to it, his new jiujitsu, judo, completely devastated the traditional arts. The same happened when the sport model was adopted by swordman in Japan.

I think you need to do some better research there...
Kano Judo was a combination of Kito-ryu and Tenjin-shinyo ryu, to TMA and the only difference was that Kano's fighters were better, period.
At that time, pretty much everyone trained the same way:
Grappling and throwing were "freestyle" and striking was controlled because of the "too deadly" stigma.
As for kendo, you need to read Draegers Modern Budo and Bujutsu where he mentions an episode that was a challenge match between a TMA kenjutsu guy and 3 "modern Kendo guys ( It was the "passive style" VS the "aggressive or active style") and see what the Kenjuka did to them.
Of course the difference was that the modern kendo guys were used to "sticks" and the kenjutsuka was used to a real blade.

[Eric_H]

Again, you are missing the point. ONLY realistic training develops realistic skill. Doing unrealistic training, even if your believe your life depends on it, won't develop realistic skill.


I didn't miss your point, I agree with your statement above. We're arguing different points.



Sport training is realistic -- you practice really doing things just as you will do them against a genuinely resisting opponent (you really play the game). Things that work, you keep; things that don't you discard. Because you continually face realistic energy, resistance, attacks, defenses, etc. you develop skills to deal with realistic energy, resistance, attacks, defenses, etc. This is what keeps you on the realistic road. Unrealistic training (where you are not facing realistic energy, resistance, attacks, defenses, etc.) permit you to get away with all kinds of nonsense that won't really work under realistic conditions, so you begin to detour from the realistic road -- and the longer you do it, the further you go off into fantasy land.


Sport training is realistic in the contexts of sports only. Just like with Kendo, you can build a lot of the same body mechanics and high percentage techniques that go into being a swordsman, however doing kendo is not the same as fighting with a real sword.

By the same logic, doing Judo where you pin the guy is not the same as throwing him on to his head and breaking his neck. Can Judo help you build skills that help you to do so? Yes. Does it build that specific skill? No, it's too dangerous for sport. At the end of the day, there's more in common than apart with throwing the guy to pin vs kill, but they're not the same.



Why the smart ass? I thought we were having a decent conversation.


Terence, you do have a history of making comments from one side and then the other. I remember a Chi sao thread that i think somebody linked in their sig all about that. Just bustin' yer balls man, lighten up. :D



Having a skill and choosing how to use it are two different things. For example, I can be skilled at submission grappling, and in sport, I choose to stop when my opponent taps whereas if I am fighting for my life I choose to break my opponent's arm. Same skill, but how I choose to use it varies with the circumstances.


See that's kind of the different points we're arguing. You achieved in sport the ability to gain the superior position. By your own argument, since you haven't actually trained to break his arm with it, how do you know you can do so under pressure/resistance/etc? YOU CAN'T! You can only guarantee you can achieve a superior position under pressure/resistance which makes breaking or submitting much easier.



If I have to train to fight for my life, should I choose the most effective way to develop skill or do something else?


The Key is to both train what you can safely, and then do supplemental training that makes the dangerous stuff easier. If you're really going to do finger strikes, training them to be able to take impact, to break arms, snapping twigs that are resistance similar to human arm, cutting through tatami that has resistance like human skin+bone, etc. You have to find a substitute when the stuff is too dangerous to get you as close as you can. Sports don't do that.



Of course. And you agree that your mental aspect (whether life or death or sport) is separate from the skill building. That's my point. How we best -- most quickly, most effectively, and the levels that we can attain -- come from the sport-model of training.


For superior position training and non-lethal/breaking/puncturing techniques, I cannot argue, it's true.



Without skill, the mental aspect really isn't significant -- you want to break his arm, but won't have the ability to do it.


Eh, that is arguable. I'd rather fight a skilled guy who doesn't want to fight than a strong unskilled one who really wants to kill me. Old chinese saying has it that first is spirit, then conditioning, and then skill come in order of importance when dealing w/ hand to hand fighting. I agree with it.



Do you see that this is a theory -- you BELIEVE this should work. In sport, you really DO it-- whatever it is -- not do one thing in the hope that you will be able to do something else (which is the definition of poor training). And by really doing it (under realistic conditions), you develop high levels of skill in doing it. You know it works because you are already doing it under realistic conditions.

And your theory -- like all theories -- fails to take into account numerous aspects. For example, like the probability of getting your fingers broken (by your opponent blocking your strike, by missing and hitting his skull, etc.) or how extremely difficult it is to hit a small, moving target like the eye when your opponent is trying to knock your head off, etc.

Sure, accidents happen. People (including scrubs) hit holes in one. People hit basketball shots at the buzzer from the other end of the court. People hit winners off the "wood" of their racket. Etc. Should they rely on these things? The issue isn't whether someone has done something or can possibly do something but whether it is a high percentage move, what are the risks (is it high risk or low risk), can you effectively train it by really doing it, etc.


He actually nailed him in the eye a number of times, but the one that really connected ended it. Being he was a fighter in EliteXC, I don't know if you can legitimately call him a scrub, he may not be in the top, but to be able to fight in a national promotion like that he's got to be above scrub level.

IF I am able to land a jab effectively, AND IF my fingers are toughened up enough not to break should i miss, what makes you think it's not a valid technique? Is it lower percentage? Sure. CAN I do it? Absolutely. IF you are focused on ONLY the highest percentage technique is this a bad choice for you? Yeah. But it's the gamble of lower percentage vs increased damage.

Going back to our earlier battlefield discussion, if you HAVE to take your opponent out quickly because of extra factors (he has buddies coming, you have to cover for your buddy who just got injured, or whatever) you combine your HIGHEST PERCENTAGE with the most potential for INCREASED DAMAGE. That's only logical.



How can he teach a skill that he doesn't have (know how to do)? If you are a terrible boxer, do you think that you should be teaching others how to box? Should bad golfers be coaching others on how to play golf?


A boxer who went 0-15 could still be able to teach mechanics on how to throw a proper jab. I wouldn't keep him around for sparring though.

[Hardwork108]

Why are you here when you could be living in Tibet and meditating under cool mountain stream waterfalls and washing the sandals of your "authentic kung-fu teacher"?

Simple answer: "Dodging bullets" here in Colombia, relaxes me more.:D

Secondly, reading clueless posts such as the one you made above, proves to me, and everyone else who reads them, how much out of touch and lacking in TCMA knowledge, some of you MMA-ist/Cross trainers, really are.

You seem to think that anyone who "dares" to defend the TCMA methodologies, therefore and at least to some point, disagrees with the MMA approach, in a TCMA FORUM, must be automatically labeled a kung fu cult member.:rolleyes:

Really, you and your MMA brethren are the ones who should be meditating in Tibet, for the sole purpose of getting in touch with the remnants of your punch drunk brains.

[Wayfaring]

You seem to think that anyone who "dares" to defend the TCMA methodologies, therefore and at least to some point, disagrees with the MMA approach, in a TCMA FORUM, must be automatically labeled a kung fu cult member.:rolleyes:


Hmm. I didn't mention or think anything of the sort regarding labeling people a "kung fu cult member". Why? Does that describe you?

I don't see what seems to be the big deal that's causing you to be all huffy about "TCMA Methodologies".

Can't you train to fight realistically AND meditate under your cold waterfall on your lunch break?

[Hardwork108]

Hmm. I didn't mention or think anything of the sort regarding labeling people a "kung fu cult member". Why? Does that describe TCMA cultist.
Actually, what you say describes YOU as a MMA cultist.


I don't see what seems to be the big deal that's causing you to be all huffy about "TCMA Methodologies".
I am not the "huffy" one, it is you. All I do is post in a TCMA forum, while I practice the TCMAs, meaning, that I have a reason to be here, because I have a point of reference.

So, it is you, and the likes of you, who feel obliged to come into this KUNG FU Forum, and get "fluffy" about the "functionality" of your MMA methodologies.

Again, you and your kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, are the ones who are "trespassing" here, and are over your heads, I might add, not the other way round!


Can't you train to fight realistically AND meditate under your cold waterfall on your lunch break?
All those who train in genuine TCMA schools, learn to fight realistically.

YOu would have known that fact, if you had experienced genuine kung fu training.....

[Eric_H]

Actually, having once trained with Wayfaring for a few years, I can vouch that he does know what he's talking about. As far as I know, he's consistently trained with the best he could in any area (regardless of art) and has always kept a very realistic head about what works and what doesn't. Just because he doesn't put TCMA training up on some untouchable pedestal doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I think some healthy skepticism might do you some good HW108. And I say that as a disciple to a TCMA system.

[Wayfaring]

Actually, what you say describes ME PERFECTLY as a TCMA cultist.

I am very "huffy". All I do is post in a TCMA forum, while I practice the TCMAs, meaning, that I have a reason to be here, because I have a point of reference. And that point of reference is my mom's basement. Always has been, always will be. My mom serves my TCMA sifu tea and lets him down here to train me. Thanks mom!

So, it is you, and the likes of you, who feel obliged to come into this KUNG FU Forum, and get me all "huffy" by about how there should be "functionality" in your martial arts training methodologies. What do you know? Have you ever been to my mom's basement?

Again, if you ever did, then you and your kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, are the ones who are "trespassing" here, and are over your heads, I might add, not the other way round!

It's MY mom, not yours. And it's HER basement.

All those who train in genuine TCMA schools, learn to fight realistically. I know, because my mom told me so, and her basement is the PERFECT representation of ALL fighting situations.

YOu would have known that fact, if you had experienced genuine kung fu training in my mom's basement. That is if I didn't kick you out first because I'm huffy.....

sigh. here we go again. fixed that for you. :p:p:p

[Dragonzbane76]

Secondly, reading clueless posts such as the one you made above, proves to me, and everyone else who reads them, how much out of touch and lacking in TCMA knowledge, some of you MMA-ist/Cross trainers, really are.

rinse and repeat/copy paste...:rolleyes:


So, it is you, and the likes of you, who feel obliged to come into this KUNG FU Forum, and get "fluffy" about the "functionality" of your MMA methodologies.

Again, you and your kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, are the ones who are "trespassing" here, and are over your heads, I might add, not the other way round!

here you go again tell people what they should do. I think you forget or are just suffering from stupidity that this is a free forum. And we can all thank what ever gods/being that you have no control over anything. If it was up to you we would all be sitting in our closets wearing tinfoil hats muttering about the end of days and the "evil" empire, while debasing everyone and anyone that they have no idea what TCMA's are.

[Dave McKinnon]

Yaddah Yaddah Yaddha....

Something about never being in your mom's basement but she has some nice junk in her trunk and or she lets me pack some stuff in her trunk.

Yaddah yaddah yaddah ....

:cool:

[Wayfaring]

Something about never being in your mom's basement but she has some nice junk in her trunk and or she lets me pack some stuff in her trunk.

Just for you McKinnon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEe_eraFWWs

[Hardwork108]

I think some healthy skepticism might do you some good HW108. And I say that as a disciple to a TCMA system.

With all due respect, I would rather get my TCMA information from people who have actually trained in genuine TCMA schools, rather that get it from great and fantastic MMA-ists, who are utterly and hopelessly clueless about the real kung fu training, because seemingly they are basing their "kung fu wisdom" on their Mcdojo/kwoon TCMA experience......

[Hardwork108]

rinse and repeat/copy paste...:rolleyes:



here you go again tell people what they should do. I think you forget or are just suffering from stupidity that this is a free forum. And we can all thank what ever gods/being that you have no control over anything. If it was up to you we would all be sitting in our closets wearing tinfoil hats muttering about the end of days and the "evil" empire, while debasing everyone and anyone that they have no idea what TCMA's are.

Dragonzbane, my advise to you as usual, is to get a life; find a woman quickly and get L@id, as it might stop you babbling incoherently for at least a short while.....

[Hardwork108]

sigh. here we go again. fixed that for you. :p:p:p

Listen, please don't think that I don't find your clueless take on the TCMAs amusing, and even hilarious, but as entertaining as your confused TCMA "wisdom" may be to us genuine kung fu practitioners, I am going to be unselfish and ask you to start focusing on "fixing" your kung fu knowledge, so that you don't become the laughing stock of all genuine TCMA practitioners here.

I mean we have the likes of Dragonzbane and Frost (and others), to keep us entertained, so we don't need more "victims".

So, I hope that you take my advice and if you do, then let me thank you again for all the laughs that you have provided us so far. We will miss you for sure......

[Wayfaring]

Listen, please don't think that I don't find your clueless take on the TCMAs amusing, and even hilarious, but as entertaining as your confused TCMA "wisdom" may be to us genuine kung fu practitioners, I am going to be unselfish and ask you to start focusing on "fixing" your kung fu knowledge, so that you don't become the laughing stock of all genuine TCMA practitioners here.

I'm all about "fixing" my martial arts knowledge and ability. As a hobbyist. I get a little better each day.


I mean we have the likes of Dragonzbane and Frost (and others), to keep us entertained, so we don't need more "victims".

Don't sell yourself short here, HW. Your ability to entertain through dumb@$$ comments far exceeds Dragonbane, Frost, and most of the others as well.

[k gledhill]

I think saving your life, is its own 'reality'....going into a guard on the bjj minds set for 20mmin is unrealistic.....they altered UFC fights after seeing guys [gracie] doing 20 min responses to being taken down....in a bar fight thats 'your life' 20 seconds will determine if you have permanent brain damage nor not... the cage is an illusion, whereby you have a 'sporting' exchange. Weights are equal,everything is equal....sporting... thers is no weapons in the mix, no extra opponent , your always fighting ONE guy..easy, who needs MA for that ?



doesnt exist in the real world....real you think real is 1 on 1 in a gym with gloves..etc, ?

wrong...your f u c ki ng delusional.....bad men, [comma], will kill you.................

[Hardwork108]

I'm all about "fixing" my martial arts knowledge and ability. As a hobbyist. I get a little better each day.
No one said that your MMA is bad. However, you need a lot, lot, more "fixing", when it comes to TCMA knowledge.


Don't sell yourself short here, HW.
Don't worry, I never do!


Your ability to entertain through dumb@$$ comments far exceeds Dragonbane, Frost, and most of the others as well.
Except for the fact that my comments on the TCMAs are based on genuinely training them and hence having a point of reference, in contrast to your, Frost's and Dragonzbane's (and others') comments that are no more than P!ssing in the dark, hoping not to miss the toilet, so as to impress each other, with statements based more on your MMA and cross training knowledge, mixed with the usual Mcdojo training, than any valid study of a given TCMA methodology......:rolleyes:

You have to realize that when you MMA-ist and cross trainers go to genuine TCMA threads, and in not so many words, tell all genuine kung fu practitioners that what they do is wrong and useless,and can only be improved by the methodologies that you practice, it reflects bad on you and your sense of self confidence and shows distinct insecurity, and as always, demonstrates your minimal understanding of the TCMAs, exposing how out of your depth all or you really are!

Just saying.........

[Dragonzbane76]

Dragonzbane, my advise to you as usual, is to get a life; find a woman quickly and get L@id, as it might stop you babbling incoherently for at least a short while...

repeat repeat repeat.... my advise to you is to come up with some originality. anywho,,,, I'm very happy with my life and I get great laughs everyday from your idiotic postings.


You have to realize that when you MMA-ist and cross trainers go to genuine TCMA threads, and in not so many words, tell all genuine kung fu practitioners that what they do is wrong and useless,and can only be improved by the methodologies that you practice, it reflects bad on you and your sense of self confidence and shows distinct insecurity, and as always, demonstrates your minimal understanding of the TCMAs, exposing how out of your depth all or you really are!

It's funny that half the people you call mma-ist are more traditional than most. You ever wonder that maybe these so called "mma-ists" learned something you have yet to learn in cross training? There are a lot of them, odds would be that maybe they stumbled onto something.

No one is disagreeing with you that this is a kung fu forum... And I've yet to see where anyone is telling anyone what they HAVE to do... I think you are missing the point or misunderstanding, THEY ARE CALLED OPINIONS. everyone has them, if you do not like opinions then do not listen, no one is coming to your house with a gun and forcing you to cross train.

AGAIN this is an open forum. We know that with your nazi background you really don't understand the concept of freedom so we are willing to overlook somethings. ;)

[t_niehoff]

I think saving your life, is its own 'reality'....


Yet, how people BELIEVE they are going to go about that is often highly unrealistic.



going into a guard on the bjj minds set for 20mmin is unrealistic.....


There are no fights in MMA where someone is in guard for 20 minutes (rounds only last 5 minutes).

Besides that, let me ask you -- what do you BELIEVE you are going to do if someone takes you down and tries to keep you down (whether intentionally or accidentally)? Do you think that you will magically be able to deal with that or do you think that you should train to develop skills to deal with that?



they altered UFC fights after seeing guys [gracie] doing 20 min responses to being taken down....in a bar fight thats 'your life' 20 seconds will determine if you have permanent brain damage nor not... the cage is an illusion, whereby you have a 'sporting' exchange. Weights are equal,everything is equal....sporting... thers is no weapons in the mix, no extra opponent , your always fighting ONE guy..easy, who needs MA for that ?


As I pointed out to Eric, having a skill and choosing how to use it are two different things. In a cage fight, you may choose to use your skills in a way to your advantage, and in a bar fight, you may choose to use your skills in a different way to your advantage. Either way -- bar fight or cage fight -- the ground skills you need are the same (escapes, pins, locks, chokes, etc.), and the evidence is overwhelming that sport training (performance based) is the best way to develop those skills.



doesnt exist in the real world....real you think real is 1 on 1 in a gym with gloves..etc, ?

wrong...your f u c ki ng delusional.....bad men, [comma], will kill you.................

Oh, and you think doing chi sao or forms or whatever else you do is "real"?

The point is that anytime we fight, whether in a gym or in the street or bar, we bring our conditioning and our skills -- or lack thereof -- to that fight. The better conditioned and the better skilled we are, the better our chances. That conditioning and those skills will work anywhere.

If you can't deal with a "1 on 1 in a gym", you're certainly not going to be able to deal with your "badmen."

[Wayfaring]

No one said that your MMA is bad. However, you need a lot, lot, more "fixing", when it comes to TCMA knowledge.

Please explain, in non cult-like words, with rational explanation and thought, why this huge delineation exists in your mind.

What "special knowledge" is it you feel that exists in TCMA that does not apply towards MMA training?


Except for the fact that my comments on the TCMAs are based on genuinely training them and hence having a point of reference, in contrast to your, Frost's and Dragonzbane's (and others') comments that are no more than P!ssing in the dark, hoping not to miss the toilet, so as to impress each other, with statements based more on your MMA and cross training knowledge, mixed with the usual Mcdojo training, than any valid study of a given TCMA methodology......:rolleyes:

You have to realize that when you MMA-ist and cross trainers go to genuine TCMA threads, and in not so many words, tell all genuine kung fu practitioners that what they do is wrong and useless,and can only be improved by the methodologies that you practice, it reflects bad on you and your sense of self confidence and shows distinct insecurity, and as always, demonstrates your minimal understanding of the TCMAs, exposing how out of your depth all or you really are!

Just saying.........
Your "comments" tend towards generalization and labeling. Which is very faction or cult oriented. Which is kind of interesting that you obviated that in one of your posts here when no one previously brought it up.

I don't tell whoever it is you think are "genuine kung fu practitioners" that what they do is wrong. It may surprise you to discover that I ..... gasp ..... still practice forms. I just don't do it while sparring. Well, not totally true. I have been known to bust out a few moves from 5 animal forms in the midst of sparring. For sheer entertainment purposes.

[t_niehoff]

Sport training is realistic in the contexts of sports only. Just like with Kendo, you can build a lot of the same body mechanics and high percentage techniques that go into being a swordsman, however doing kendo is not the same as fighting with a real sword.


Of course it is not the same. But the SKILLS you will use are the same.

You do understand that you can't really train realistically with "real" swords. People would end up injuring and killing each other very quickly, and you'd never develop much in the way of skill. The shinai permits people to realistically train (move with full power) and so develop realistic skills.

It's the same "principle" with empty hands -- boxing is not a street fight. But the skills you develop via boxing are realistic skills and will "work" in any realistic situation.



By the same logic, doing Judo where you pin the guy is not the same as throwing him on to his head and breaking his neck. Can Judo help you build skills that help you to do so? Yes. Does it build that specific skill? No, it's too dangerous for sport. At the end of the day, there's more in common than apart with throwing the guy to pin vs kill, but they're not the same.


The whole idea of throwing him on his head and breaking his neck is a fantasy. Except in rare accidental cases, it won't happen. So training to do something that will never work is a waste of time. Instead, train to throw him by really throwing him. Kimura was feared for his osoto gari -- he gave his randori partners concussions.



Terence, you do have a history of making comments from one side and then the other. I remember a Chi sao thread that i think somebody linked in their sig all about that. Just bustin' yer balls man, lighten up. :D


No, I don't. I am very consistent in my views, it's just that people may not see the consistency because they don't understand (intentionally) what I am saying.



See that's kind of the different points we're arguing. You achieved in sport the ability to gain the superior position. By your own argument, since you haven't actually trained to break his arm with it, how do you know you can do so under pressure/resistance/etc? YOU CAN'T! You can only guarantee you can achieve a superior position under pressure/resistance which makes breaking or submitting much easier.


If I lift you over my head, do you think I can say that I know that I can drop you?

You can know because you feel it. People tap because they "know" (feel it) that they will get choked out or have joints broken. Even then, people sometimes don't tap (thinking the angle is off or the pressure insufficient or whatever) and injuries happen. I've been choked out, and have choked people out. I've had my arm pop, and popped some people's arms. I had my knee dislocated. From this experience, I know a kimura will wrench a shoulder or a RNC will put you out.



The Key is to both train what you can safely, and then do supplemental training that makes the dangerous stuff easier. If you're really going to do finger strikes, training them to be able to take impact, to break arms, snapping twigs that are resistance similar to human arm, cutting through tatami that has resistance like human skin+bone, etc. You have to find a substitute when the stuff is too dangerous to get you as close as you can. Sports don't do that.


The KEY is if you aren't already doing it, you won't be able to do it.

Much of the dangerous stuff is really just training to fail. People who train finger strikes, for instance, are really just training to get their fingers broken. They are training to fail.



For superior position training and non-lethal/breaking/puncturing techniques, I cannot argue, it's true.


What's with this "no-lethal" stuff?

Skill and conditioning works. How you use those skills is up to you.



Eh, that is arguable. I'd rather fight a skilled guy who doesn't want to fight than a strong unskilled one who really wants to kill me. Old chinese saying has it that first is spirit, then conditioning, and then skill come in order of importance when dealing w/ hand to hand fighting. I agree with it.


Much of those old chinese sayings (like Calgon) are nonsense.



He actually nailed him in the eye a number of times, but the one that really connected ended it. Being he was a fighter in EliteXC, I don't know if you can legitimately call him a scrub, he may not be in the top, but to be able to fight in a national promotion like that he's got to be above scrub level.


I never said he was a scrub. I said that even with scrubs accidents happen.



IF I am able to land a jab effectively, AND IF my fingers are toughened up enough not to break should i miss, what makes you think it's not a valid technique?


This is typical TMA-type thinking -- IF this and IF that, then I BELIEVE . . . The answer is: that's all THEORY. So, when it comes to fighting for your life (as you can't do this stuff in sport), are you going to bet on a theory? Or, are you going to use what you KNOW will work because you've done it for real thousands of times?

IF YOU ARE NOT ALREADY DOING IT, YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO DO IT (certainly not consistently).



Is it lower percentage? Sure. CAN I do it? Absolutely. IF you are focused on ONLY the highest percentage technique is this a bad choice for you? Yeah. But it's the gamble of lower percentage vs increased damage.


There is a real question about the increased damage (I've been poked hard, accidentally, in the eye several times and, while one time I had my retina detach - and had to get laser surgery - I still finished my training that evening). And the other aspect of low percentage is that it has a very good chance of failing, and when it fails, it leaves you exposed -- so not only don't you do something effective to your opponent but now you leave yourself open to having something done to you.



Going back to our earlier battlefield discussion, if you HAVE to take your opponent out quickly because of extra factors (he has buddies coming, you have to cover for your buddy who just got injured, or whatever) you combine your HIGHEST PERCENTAGE with the most potential for INCREASED DAMAGE. That's only logical.


So your theory is when really in danger, not to do what you train doing, that you know will work, that gives you your best (highest percentage) chance, but to do something that is low percentage, that you never really train, and so has a much smaller chance of working in the HOPE that not only will it work but that it will work better (increased damage)?

[t_niehoff]

I think you need to do some better research there...
Kano Judo was a combination of Kito-ryu and Tenjin-shinyo ryu, to TMA and the only difference was that Kano's fighters were better, period.


WHY were Kano's guys better? Because of their training. Because Kano took traditional jiujitsu and adopted the sport-model to his training -- making it performance-based.

And that's why even today, judo guys dominate traditional jiujitsu guys when their best go head to head.



At that time, pretty much everyone trained the same way:
Grappling and throwing were "freestyle" and striking was controlled because of the "too deadly" stigma.


And the traditional jiujitsu schools continue to train like they did -- and how do these guys perform in grappling, throwing, fighting contests?



As for kendo, you need to read Draegers Modern Budo and Bujutsu where he mentions an episode that was a challenge match between a TMA kenjutsu guy and 3 "modern Kendo guys ( It was the "passive style" VS the "aggressive or active style") and see what the Kenjuka did to them.
Of course the difference was that the modern kendo guys were used to "sticks" and the kenjutsuka was used to a real blade.

So, do you think that one incident is solid proof (versus, for instance, the overwhelming domination of judo over other traditional jiujitsu) of how good a particular training method is?

You may want to look into how modern kendo began -- and how the commoners who took up sword practice and adopted the modern sport methodology overwhelmingly defeated the traditionally-trained samurai when joint tournaments were held.

[sanjuro_ronin]

WHY were Kano's guys better? Because of their training. Because Kano took traditional jiujitsu and adopted the sport-model to his training -- making it performance-based.

And that's why even today, judo guys dominate traditional jiujitsu guys when their best go head to head.

Actually, Kano training was base don his training in Kito-ryu and Tenjin shinyo ryu, to TJA and the training he use din Judo was the same one, he "invented" nothing in regards to that training.


And the traditional jiujitsu schools continue to train like they did -- and how do these guys perform in grappling, throwing, fighting contests?

The problem was on what was prioritized and most TJJJ focused on the "too deadly" and on Katas.


So, do you think that one incident is solid proof (versus, for instance, the overwhelming domination of judo over other traditional jiujitsu) of how good a particular training method is?

You may want to look into how modern kendo began -- and how the commoners who took up sword practice and adopted the modern sport methodology overwhelmingly defeated the traditionally-trained samurai when joint tournaments were held.

I think you need to read up on the context of those matches.
The sport guys "out pointed" the kenjutsuka's, they played the game better, a game the kenjutsu guys didn't know.
The tapped and poaked with sticks and got in quick points over the "kill shots" of the kenjutsu players.

This is a bad example for you T, it's like comparing point sparring with kick boxing:
Put the KB in a point environment and they will be eaten alive by points.

[t_niehoff]

http://www.tmz.com/2010/08/04/ex-ufc-star-in-bloody-street-fight-roger-huerta-austin-texas-video/

[goju]

aren you a judo guy sanjuro?

t this is where you roll over and present your belly in submission:D

[t_niehoff]

Actually, Kano training was base don his training in Kito-ryu and Tenjin shinyo ryu, to TJA and the training he use din Judo was the same one, he "invented" nothing in regards to that training.


I didn't say he "invented" anything -- just that he adopted a sport-model approach. Is judo a sport? Are any other traditional jiujitsu schools sports? Which, judo or any other traditional jiujitsu schools, dominate the others?

If Kano kept doing things as he had been trained, his guys wouldn't be any different than the traditional guys.



The problem was on what was prioritized and most TJJJ focused on the "too deadly" and on Katas.


That's what comes with unrealistic-type training, and why when you do realsitic (sport) training, you stop focusing on things that don't work.



I think you need to read up on the context of those matches.
The sport guys "out pointed" the kenjutsuka's, they played the game better, a game the kenjutsu guys didn't know.
The tapped and poaked with sticks and got in quick points over the "kill shots" of the kenjutsu players.

This is a bad example for you T, it's like comparing point sparring with kick boxing:
Put the KB in a point environment and they will be eaten alive by points.

The trouble is that you are *assuming* that these would be "kill shots" and that they could get them in in a "real" sword fight. Was anyone killed? No. So it is just another theory (sure they hit me at will, but in a "real" sword fight I'd blah, blah, blah -- TMAists always have excuses why they were beaten). Maybe, just maybe, in a "real" sword fight getting repeatedly hit (out-pointed) with a sword, even with non"kill shots" -- to places like the wrist/arm -- might stop you from being able to pull off any "kill shots" (they were able to do them in the sport since all the points didn't really injure them -- for example, I take 10 hits before I can get in my "kill shot").

Actually, the kendo is more like the kickboxing (as both practice realistic training - or as close to realistic as you can get with a sword), and kenjutsu more like point sparring (as both are unrealistic). I can just hear the point sparrer say "yeah, the kickboxer hit me a lot, but he's lucky that I pull my punches because in a "real fight" blah, blah, blah".)

[sanjuro_ronin]

aren you a judo guy sanjuro?

t this is where you roll over and present your belly in submission:D

Shodan in Judo, yes and also some experience in Kendo and Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu.
T's points are valid, but I think he makes too much of the kodokan matches, as do most Judo guys too by the way and he is taking the Kendo thing out of context.

[t_niehoff]

aren you a judo guy sanjuro?

t this is where you roll over and present your belly in submission:D

Judo was my first martial art.

And BJJ comes from judo.

Go away and come back when you have something substantive to add.

[Eric_H]

Of course it is not the same. But the SKILLS you will use are the same.

You do understand that you can't really train realistically with "real" swords. People would end up injuring and killing each other very quickly, and you'd never develop much in the way of skill. The shinai permits people to realistically train (move with full power) and so develop realistic skills.

It's the same "principle" with empty hands -- boxing is not a street fight. But the skills you develop via boxing are realistic skills and will "work" in any realistic situation.


Boxing won't work if someone tackles you, that's realistic but it's outside the context of the rules of that particular sport. Does it give you a method for landing string strikes and footwork? Of course.

Obviously I understand you can't train with real swords, any reasonable person would, but to claim that you can become the highest skilled swordsman you can with only kendo training is fallacy. There's a lot more to being a swordsman than just the high percentage techniques because they're don't cover every situation. Just the common ones.



The whole idea of throwing him on his head and breaking his neck is a fantasy. Except in rare accidental cases, it won't happen. So training to do something that will never work is a waste of time. Instead, train to throw him by really throwing him. Kimura was feared for his osoto gari -- he gave his randori partners concussions.


It's not a fantasy, look up Shuai Jiao. Most of their throws are designed to try and get a break/knockout or kill out of em. Ju Jitsu was as well at one point.



If I lift you over my head, do you think I can say that I know that I can drop you?


No. You don't. You have achieved the superior position of having me above your head, but nothing says I can't reverse the position. Are you really trying to use the Ultimate Warrior's WWF signature move as an argument here? C'mon Terence, you're better than that.



You can know because you feel it. People tap because they "know" (feel it) that they will get choked out or have joints broken. Even then, people sometimes don't tap (thinking the angle is off or the pressure insufficient or whatever) and injuries happen. I've been choked out, and have choked people out. I've had my arm pop, and popped some people's arms. I had my knee dislocated. From this experience, I know a kimura will wrench a shoulder or a RNC will put you out.


In context of the sport and many real life situations you are right. However outside the context of the sport things like small joint manipulation can affect your ability to maintain that RNC. As i said before, I agree that high percentage techniques are just that - High percentage. But in a sport context they do not always factor in the totality of the situation, can you agree with that statement or not?



Much of the dangerous stuff is really just training to fail. People who train finger strikes, for instance, are really just training to get their fingers broken. They are training to fail.


You are disregarding the statement about training fingers to take impact and not break on a miss. Is it a bad idea to use them otherwise? Of course. If you can stab through bamboo like some kataeka train to do can you use them without risk of self injury? Of course.

The argument is not if you CAN injure yourself with a technique - almost any striking technique done wrong can hurt you - its if you can consider it a valid option under specific circumstances. I'd say that you can.




What's with this "no-lethal" stuff?


By your own admission you are training non-lethal techniques, so as you have not trained them, you cannot possibly believe you would be able to land them under pressure. You consider many lethal techniques to be a fantasy, I do not.



Skill and conditioning works. How you use those skills is up to you.

Much of those old chinese sayings (like Calgon) are nonsense.


So an ancient chinese saying that says you should pay attention to spirit, conditioning and skill is nonsense, but when you say it it's perfectly valid?



This is typical TMA-type thinking -- IF this and IF that, then I BELIEVE . . . The answer is: that's all THEORY. So, when it comes to fighting for your life (as you can't do this stuff in sport), are you going to bet on a theory? Or, are you going to use what you KNOW will work because you've done it for real thousands of times?


Terence, that isn't the argument and you know it. Situationally, you may have to do things that aren't ideal - welcome to both life and combat. If what you KNOW isn't suited to a situation, you're in trouble. So tell me then, what would you do in the situation I described? Use your high percentage jab that you know is not likely to take your opponent out of the fight? We don't really see finger strikes in Yip Man WC until Biu Jee, which is typically only for emergency situations. Having to do extra damage at extra risk is an "emergency situation."



IF YOU ARE NOT ALREADY DOING IT, YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO DO IT (certainly not consistently).


True, but nothing says you cannot get reasonably close.



There is a real question about the increased damage (I've been poked hard, accidentally, in the eye several times and, while one time I had my retina detach - and had to get laser surgery - I still finished my training that evening). And the other aspect of low percentage is that it has a very good chance of failing, and when it fails, it leaves you exposed -- so not only don't you do something effective to your opponent but now you leave yourself open to having something done to you.


I am sorry to hear about your injury. I hope it has healed up. Would you say you were still 100% as effective with your eye jacked up? What did your training partner poking you in the eye leave him open for specifically?




So your theory is when really in danger, not to do what you train doing, that you know will work, that gives you your best (highest percentage) chance, but to do something that is low percentage, that you never really train, and so has a much smaller chance of working in the HOPE that not only will it work but that it will work better (increased damage)?

I never said it was something you hadn't trained. A jab that you have trained to effectiveness + fingers you have conditioned to take impact can be used as a weapon similar to a jab with potential to increase damage, but also potential to just stub your fingers if you are not accurate. It's a gamble, but all fighting is. Training to get as close as you can to the actual situation reduces that risk.

So the argument remains: You are in a situation that requires you to eliminate an opponent quickly do you:

A) use a technique 95% likely to land that has a %15 chance of taking him out OR
B) use a technique 70% likely to land that has a 70% chance of taking him out.

Choice is yours, i know which one I'd go for.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I didn't say he "invented" anything -- just that he adopted a sport-model approach. Is judo a sport? Are any other traditional jiujitsu schools sports? Which, judo or any other traditional jiujitsu schools, dominate the others?

If Kano kept doing things as he had been trained, his guys wouldn't be any different than the traditional guys.



That's what comes with unrealistic-type training, and why when you do realsitic (sport) training, you stop focusing on things that don't work.



The trouble is that you are *assuming* that these would be "kill shots" and that they could get them in in a "real" sword fight. Was anyone killed? No. So it is just another theory (sure they hit me at will, but in a "real" sword fight I'd blah, blah, blah -- TMAists always have excuses why they were beaten). Maybe, just maybe, in a "real" sword fight getting repeatedly hit (out-pointed) with a sword, even with non"kill shots" -- to places like the wrist/arm -- might stop you from being able to pull off any "kill shots" (they were able to do them in the sport since all the points didn't really injure them -- for example, I take 10 hits before I can get in my "kill shot").

Actually, the kendo is more like the kickboxing (as both practice realistic training - or as close to realistic as you can get with a sword), and kenjutsu more like point sparring (as both are unrealistic). I can just hear the point sparrer say "yeah, the kickboxer hit me a lot, but he's lucky that I pull my punches because in a "real fight" blah, blah, blah".)

First off, Kano training was typical of whathe did in the Kito and Tenjin shino ryu dojos.
He didn't invent or make judo a "sport" at that time, it came much later.

As someone who has done BOTH Kendo and kenjutsu I can say that Kendo is more like point sparring than anything else ( it is a point based system) and that kenjutsu, though done via forms, is far more realistic then kendo and ANYONE that has ever held a real sword, a bokuto and a shinai can tell you why.
The fact that kendo is free style is irrelevant because so much of kendo is shinai oriented.

I would gladly trade hits with my bokken VS anyone's shinai and tehn we can see which was a "killshot".

[goju]

Judo was my first martial art.

And BJJ comes from judo.

Go away and come back when you have something substantive to add.

oh boy another art you trained in for two weeks in and think your qualified to speak about! wipee doo!