Hsing I question

[ZenMindT]

I've been trying to add some diversity to my WC training, and in doing so have become vary interested in the 5 phases of Hsing I. It's simularities, I think, will make it a great compiment to my excisting training routing. I do have the problem though that there are no Hsing I / Xing Yi schools any where near me.

So my 1st question is, how important is having a sifu to learning the energy in the
5 phases. In WC, chi sao is impossible w/o an experienced player. Would it be impossible or just difficult. I have a great book by Dr's Luang and Yang called
appropriatly "XingYiChuan" and it has all the movments and alot of the associated
poems. Again, I only want to study the 5 phases and not all the amimal forms.

And also, since from what I have read via other sorces, the real importance is the energy, and each phase can be translated into many techniques. So when practicing the phases, is it ok to substitue some of the movments so long as you stay true to the energy and syncronization of limbs.

For example in Pi, when you finish the movment, the forward arm leg are the same side, can you do it so at the end of the movment, the opsite are is forward than the forward leg.

Also, in Pao, can I use a forward block instead of an upward one.
Basicly, in general, can you make changes and still get the same energy out of the
practice.

[taichi4eva]

Hi ZenMindT,

I was in the same predicament as you two months ago. I also come from a Wing Chun background, but I wanted to learn more about what Xing Yi had to offer. I joined a Xing Yi class, and have since learned the five elements as well as the linking form (not to perfection, but you get my point). I also was not interested in learning the animals either.

My opinion is that every style is a whole package. If you put Wing Chun into your Xingyi without delving into Xingyi deeply, then you're doing the art an injustice. Hence, I do not believe you will get much benefit from Xingyi if you put it in a Wing Chun framework. I would suggest finding a teacher to show Xingyi properly, but if you're content with personal discovery, then you don't need it. If you are planning to call yourself a Xingyi master, then I don't think it would be right.

There are good Wing Chun teachers and bad Wing Chun teachers. Likewise, there are good Xingyi teachers and bad Xingyi teachers. If you figure your Xingyi instructor is teaching you BS, then there's no point in staying. You get my drift.

I'm sure you've already heard that a major difference between Wing Chun and Xingyi is that Xingyi apparently uses "whole body power," etc. while Wing Chun is more upper body, always keep centerline. Personally, I agree. Wing Chun was much easier to use and do correctly than Xingyi because I was always asked to torque my body (especially my spine) to generate that power and distance.

[Three Harmonies]

First of all get a teacher. How important is anything with or without a teacher?
Secondly the elements are merely representations of certain types of energy. Pi Quan is downward energy. It is not a fixed technique per se, but rather a category of techniques that employ downwards energy in their execution.

Cheers
Jake

[ZenMindT]

Thank you both for your replies.

I do not plan on calling my self a Xing Yi master. Just a kung fu master (eventualy). I am vary satisfied with my WC teacher and my progress thus far. To me though, it is just one path of wich to get to a certain destination, and purly out of curiosity ( and intrest in such an intresting art) I though I would take at look at that goal from a slightly diffrent angle.

I DO want to greatly understand Xing Yi, wich is why I posted to begin with. But from what I have read, the 5 phases where created 1st, the animals where added later. I have even read that some master ONLY study 5 phases. So what I was hoping to do is this. Learn 5 phases deeply, and instead of adding WC to Xing Yi, add Xing Yi to WC. Essentually, take a look at each of the movments w/in the forms and apply 5 phases energy to them. WC has vary few forms, All wich I have learned save the weopans.

I have searched for a teacher, but there on none near me, and I am unable to travel.

Thanks again for your replies.

[Three Harmonies]

They will not blend well brother. WC has too many contrary principles and theories. I have had students try to study both and all they do is get confused and frustrated.

Everyone can travel, it is just a matter of how badly you want something.
JAB

[taichi4eva]

ThreeHarmonies,

Respectfully, I think that there is a possibility of a blend. I think that the first Xingyi practicioners might have though Bagua was contrary, but look at how things are now- the two are almost married to one another. Good mechanics are good mechanics, it doesn't matter from what art.

ZenMindT,

Whatever your choice is affects only yourself. We all have our personal goals and if you believe that the Xingyi elements can help you, then I say go for it. I agree wholeheartedly with ZenMindT that if you really have a deep desire to learn the 5 elements properly, seek a teacher. Otherwise, you won't get as much benefit.

[Three Harmonies]

WC mechanic's are contrary to many in XY and Bagua. But hey, don't take my word for it... go gain the experience yourself. I just hope you do not waste years that many others have, who then try to offer guidance, which is usually in turn ignored, thus they end up wasting years. Comes full circle. Holy ****... thats it... it is ALL BAGUA;):D:p

JAB

[Dale Dugas]

I agree Jake.

it is all Bagua, hence my giving up the other arts and only doing bagua.

circles are the answer.....:eek:

[Three Harmonies]

Careful, you will get dizzy:D

[woliveri]

What Jake? I thought it was all MMA and BJJ.. LOL :D

Anyway, Jake and Dale are correct IMO. WC isn't anything like Xingyi or Bagua. No comparison in the slightest.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Don;t know where you are located but you might want to contact this school. They offer WC as well as Ying Yi so perhaps they could provide some insight.

http://www.sixharmony.com/

[woliveri]

Hello,

Don;t know where you are located but you might want to contact this school. They offer WC as well as Ying Yi so perhaps they could provide some insight.

http://www.sixharmony.com/

Krap, that guy learned from Wai Hung, Fu jiao pai? I'd be going for some of that rather than the wing chun...

[RenDaHai]

1. Cross training is always good. I have never seen anyone who has not benefitted from training more than 1 style, contradictions be ****ed. Xing yi won't mesh with wing chun but by studying it you will have more profound understanding.

2. The 5 elements are xing yi really. The animals vary school to school and are not as important. But you may as well learn the whole thing if you get the chance.

3. Yes you can do any technique front or rear hand, pao quan is typically not up but accross, but it can be done in many ways.

4. You DO need a teacher i think. YOu can try and gain an appreciation of it from a book, but you will gain much more from a teacher. As you correctly said the 5 elements are fundamentally 5 types of power rather than 5 techniques.

You will also appreciate the footwork in xing yi. ALso by understanding xingyi you will have a good base in the theory of all the northern styles. Every good shaolin master for example will know the 5 elements well, as will any wudang master or any from wutai etc. 5 elements are older than xingyi itself.

[KTS]

maybe this will help, maybe not....

xingyi isnt too much technique based. however, it will take you a decent amount of time to understand, and acquire the basic mechanics of the art. you will not be able to learn the 5 fists in 2 weeks. you will not even get passed basic stepping or standing postures in that time, let alone a couple months from starting.

personally, i would never mix another art into one that i haven't acquired a high level of proficiency in. it not only dilutes what u have been learning, but will create bad habits even where there aren't any.

you said you are satisfied with what you are learning, so why do you feel the need to add anything?

myself, i do study other arts than xingyi. however, i started this after 5 years of concentrating exclusively on xingyi. and of those 5 years, most of my focus was on the 5 fists. there really isn't much time to focus on anything else until you are proficient in those basics. let alone practicing an entirely different system with very different mechanics.

i would set aside most of the wing chun, in order to learn xingyiquan, if my goal was to actually learn xing yi.

[bawang]

its not good to learn xingyiquan from books. people can tell right away if u learned from a book

[MysteriousPower]

Are you guys being serious? Hsing I isn't like wing chun? It's all ba gua?

That's all wrong. Someone's wc can be like another's hsing I. The arts themselves don't look like anything in particular. They look how each individual makes them look. So everyone doing hsing I is supposed to look and feel the same? Body types, temperaments, experiences all make someone's body move differently. I always get a good laugh when an instructor says to me, "That doesn't feel like hsing I.". Hsing I does not feel like anything!

During sparring you won't be able to notice any of these percieved differences. You might be able to see me pull off a variation of pi quan and callnit hsing I but I bet I could find a variation of pi in a wc
form or any form.

Jake,
I am a bit surprised to hear you talk about this issue the way you are when your teacher is one of the biggest non-believer in internal and having styles(not a knock to your teacher).

[Three Harmonies]

What teacher do you speak of?
&
Speak what way?

JAB

[MysteriousPower]

I was talking about Tim Cartmell. From the writings on his website he does not believe in styles.

You were saying that hsing I is totally different from wc. It is all just hand motions.

[Three Harmonies]

Oh, I see...

As for "they are all hand motions..." Not sure what your point is? I would agree that styles are ultimately superfluous, but mechanics are not. In my experience WC mechanics are contrary to Xing Yi's. IN MY EXPERIENCE students who have trained in both systems struggled quite a bit and became stagnant. Just my experience though.

JAB

[MartialDev]

One of Ip Man's sons reportedly asked him, "Is it OK to improve (i.e. change) the Wing Chun forms?" To which he replied, "After decades of study, I am unable to find any area for improvement. If you think you can do better, go ahead."

There are always people who think they can do better, whether it is combining Wing Chun with Xingyi or whatever else. Hopefully, the rest of us can learn from their mistakes.

[Three Harmonies]

A lot of Wing Chunners have that attitude...

[MartialDev]

Which attitude?

"I want to make this better"
"I do not feel qualified to make this better"
"Cross-training dabblers are not qualified to make this better"
"We should learn from other people's mistakes"

[RenDaHai]

The principles of all styles of wushu are ultimately the same. Every time I have seen someone train other styles they have improved their knowledge of wushu. I've never seen anyone who for example starts to train a new style then gets worse at martial arts, that just doesn't happen.

You don't need to think of combining WC and XingYi. Wing Chun has been refined to its current state. The only way to improve wing chun would be to take moves away, not to add any, to refine it further.

Never the less by understanding xingyi you will ultimately improve your understanding of wing chun. Definately. Never be afraid of gaining knowledge of as many styles as possible. Chinese wushu tend to use the same underlying principles.

In application of a master, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between WC, XingYI, Shaolin, wudang, bagua, taiji etc. The form is independant from the application. the 'style' teaches lessons about wushu but ultimately the application is formless. So by improving your understanding of xingyi you will ultimately improve all your wushu including wingchun. YOu don't need to add any moves, they are all there already, you will just understand them better.

[ZenMindT]

I only want to broaden my understanding of kung fu as a whole.I should have said i want to add hsing i to my kung fu instead of add it to my WC. WC is the only TCM i have trained, and have so for about 6 yrs. And now that I am persuing the weopons forms, what will be left to learn except for a deeper understanding of what it is I already have learned. Which is fine, but I'm only in my late 20s and have my whole life ahead of me to study kung fu(which I plan on doing) I want to keep it interesting. I know I wont learn much in a few months, and do plan on giving it years of trainging hopfully with a teacher in due time.

And I would train at the SixHarmonies school in NY except that I am in FL.
And Sifu VA Thomas of that school is actually my Si-Bak, and my Sifu has only praised his skills, So I don't think his study of the 2 arts has caused him too much stagnation in his training.

[ZenMindT]

oh, and by add I ment to say what RenDaHai is talking about in his post just above my last. He just said it better.