Full-Contact Tai Chi

[cerebus]

Just wondering how many Tai Chi practitioners here have used their Tai Chi in competitive full-contact matches, and if so, how did you do, what did you learn and what was your preparative training like? Thanks. :)

[Frost]

Just wondering how many Tai Chi practitioners here have used their Tai Chi in competitive full-contact matches, and if so, how did you do, what did you learn and what was your preparative training like? Thanks. :)

look up old posts by a guy called Liokault he used to post here and fight full contact alot, his line of tai chi in the UK are well known for fighting sanshou here and in hong kong

[Three Harmonies]

One of my students fought San Shou last year, and he is primarily a Taiji student. He did really well even though he lost. I am proud of him for stepping up!
Cheers
Jake

[cerebus]

look up old posts by a guy called Liokault he used to post here and fight full contact alot, his line of tai chi in the UK are well known for fighting sanshou here and in hong kong

Yeah, I remember him. Was he from the Docherty lineage of Wu style?

[cerebus]

One of my students fought San Shou last year, and he is primarily a Taiji student. He did really well even though he lost. I am proud of him for stepping up!
Cheers
Jake

Hey Jake! Nice. What was his training like leading up to the match?

[Three Harmonies]

Like San Shou;)
Looked like Muay Thai with throws emphasized a bit more. The tiger balms changed the rules at last minute so we were training one way, and then had to change at the last minute, but no biggie.

Cheers
Jake

[cerebus]

Like San Shou;)
Looked like Muay Thai with throws emphasized a bit more. The tiger balms changed the rules at last minute so we were training one way, and then had to change at the last minute, but no biggie.

Cheers
Jake

Thanks Jake. Did you do any Tai Chi-specific training, such as training to bring out or utilize specific Tai Chi principles or concepts? Right now I'm mainly interested in how other Tai Chi practitioners actually apply their Tai Chi training in full-contact fighting.

I learned how to fight skillfully long ago as a boxer, kickboxer, Karate black belt, Shaolin practitioner and San Shou practitioner. These days I'm mostly interested in trying to achieve the ability to apply my Tai Chi as it's set forth in the Tai Chi Classics, while competing against fighters who are actually trying to put me on my azz :D.

I know that William C.C. Chen emphasizes these aspects as did Peter Ralston. I've studied the writings of both of these men, as well as taking to heart the teachings of one of my primary Kung Fu teachers who was a long-time student of Ralston's from the '70s through the '80s. All of this, together with my own experimentation, has shown me that the Tai Chi Classics, and the extreme level of "sung" as emphasized in the Cheng Man Ching style of Tai Chi, are extremely practical in actual combat, though not easy to develop to a level which can be manifested automatically in a full-contact confrontation/ match.

Right now I'm looking for any feedback from others who may have experimented in a similar manner to compare with my own experiences. Do you feel that your student was able to use his Tai Chi training in his fight, or was that not something that he was concerned with at the time?

[RickMatz]

voila:

Taijiquan and modern western boxing. (http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com/2009/12/taijiquan-and-modern-western-boxing.html)

[cerebus]

voila:

Taijiquan and modern western boxing. (http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com/2009/12/taijiquan-and-modern-western-boxing.html)

Hello, thanks! Yes, I've read this instructor's writings and found them to be very good and interesting, though somewhat different from my own practice. But there is some decent food for thought there.

[cerebus]

While I don't disagree with anyone who wishes to blend the techniques of Muay Thai & Western Boxing with the principles or concepts of Tai Chi (I think that would be a very effective thing to do), my own feeling is that Tai Chi already HAS all the techniques necessary to win in either a real fight or in the full-contact ring.

My own practice is to learn how to use my Tai Chi (both the techniques AND the principles) within the limitations of the equipment and rules of modern tournaments (boxing and Muay Thai matches being excellent training grounds for this). But I'd love to hear from any Tai Chi people who have actually fought in the ring and hear their thoughts on training, technique, etc. Feel free to get as detailed with your experiences as you'd like, I'm very interested.

[Three Harmonies]

Well without getting on my soapbox...

Principles are principles. "How" one fights is dictated by the rule set of the fight. While I agree that most all martial arts have enough base level techniques and skills to win your average San Shou bout, I still find the need to crosstrain for said event.

For instance... no round kick in Taiji. Boom. Big one! So you add it in. We worked on leg kick, slide down into brush knee twist step / single leg / wind blows the lotus leaves, etc. etc. So we integrated something Taiji did not have and melded it with the techniques from other arts as well.

- Taiji's training methods also have to be altered since Taiji does not traditionally have mitt / pad training like boxing or MT.

- Sun Taiji is the only style I KNOW OF that actually has the Thai clinch (Plum) in it! Regardless of whether it did or not we would have trained it (again, CMA have not developed their clinch game to the level of other arts). The principles of taiji adhere in the clinch game perfectly because Taiji is 80% grappling /counter-grappling based. So naturally I knew he was going to face some kickboxers and MMA students, so we focused a lot on striking and fast takedowns (Kuai Chiao if you will).

Does this help a little? Good topic bro.
Jake

[cerebus]

Well without getting on my soapbox...

Principles are principles. "How" one fights is dictated by the rule set of the fight. While I agree that most all martial arts have enough base level techniques and skills to win your average San Shou bout, I still find the need to crosstrain for said event.

For instance... no round kick in Taiji. Boom. Big one! So you add it in. We worked on leg kick, slide down into brush knee twist step / single leg / wind blows the lotus leaves, etc. etc. So we integrated something Taiji did not have and melded it with the techniques from other arts as well.

- Taiji's training methods also have to be altered since Taiji does not traditionally have mitt / pad training like boxing or MT.

- Sun Taiji is the only style I KNOW OF that actually has the Thai clinch (Plum) in it! Regardless of whether it did or not we would have trained it (again, CMA have not developed their clinch game to the level of other arts). The principles of taiji adhere in the clinch game perfectly because Taiji is 80% grappling /counter-grappling based. So naturally I knew he was going to face some kickboxers and MMA students, so we focused a lot on striking and fast takedowns (Kuai Chiao if you will).

Does this help a little? Good topic bro.
Jake

Hi Jake! Yes, that's all excellent info, thank you!

I understand the addition of the round kick for competition purposes, but I specifically don't use it myself. The reason for this being that I've seen SOOO many friends and acquaintances really mess up their insteps when they would throw a hard round kick and the opponent would cover, resulting in a powerful instep to point-of-knee or elbow impact. One friend of mine has had painful foot problems for years due to such an incident. It's just too easy to mess up one's own shin/ instep that way.

Also, it's a (somewhat) easier kick to see coming (really hard NOT to telegraph it) and if someone has trained their timing well, then it can be caught or the defender can take the steam out of it with a fast front kick to the waistline area. Of course it's all relative to the user's ability and a really good Thai Boxer would likely round kick me before I could even see it coming, but just at an amateur level I prefer to use front kicks (when I do kick) and then use the feet for movement the rest of the time.

I agree with you about most CMAs not having the tools for working in the clinch the way Muay Thai does. My own solution (such as it is) is simply to work on being the one who controls the distancing in the match. One reason for this has been my experiences sparring with Fong from RSF. He's built like a bulldozer and he's very skilled at Shuai Jiao. Clinching with him would result in me landing hard on the ground :(. As a result I've learned to become very sensitive to maintaining the distance with which I am comfortable (which frustrates Fong to no end, cause I won't let him get hold of me :D).

[cerebus]

Jake, do you do any specific "empty-body" training (evasion & defensive movement drills to become hard to hit)? Some of the best empty-body skills I've seen were from Prince Naseem Hamed back in the day. You can see him in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfUFYtXNN0A

[kung fu fighter]

Sami Berik is a tai chi san shou fighter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyrv7mUyc50

[cerebus]

Also any suggestions folks might have for solo drills and training exercises I'd be interested in hearing about. Alot of my own practice these days has had to be on my own.

[cerebus]

Sami Berik is a tai chi san shou fighter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyrv7mUyc50

Elbow stroke from the ground, nice. Those were some serious takedowns by the other guy though...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Check-out the link.. Sifu Scrima is offering 'Extreme Push-hands' and some very 'robust' Taiji fighting formats at this tournament.. looks very interesting..

http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/stpete/

Be well..

[cerebus]

Greetings..

Check-out the link.. Sifu Scrima is offering 'Extreme Push-hands' and some very 'robust' Taiji fighting formats at this tournament.. looks very interesting..

http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/stpete/

Be well..

Thanks. I wish it was closer to my location though. There's an ICMAC tourney in San Francisco this July, but they only have "light sanda" which seems to be point-sparring.

[Three Harmonies]

Cerebus,
As for movement drills... best with a partner throwing techniques at you. This was you actually build your reflexes. Nothing wrong with practicing in the air, but you are not RE-acting to a stimulus. Best to have someone throw slowly and increase speed. This way you see the techniques and respond, and do not lock into a pattern.

As for your friend:
-#1 good partners need to keep elbows tucked to avoid such injuries.
#2 Should always be hitting with the shin, not the foot. Common mistake everyone makes!
#3 As for how easy to see... WHOA!!! Not the cats I have trained with! And even if you see it coming the impact is a whole nutter' beast to deal with!

Tacichi Bob,
That is silly nonsense Nick is doing. Just marketing ploys. Why not fight if one wants to fight? Why make up weird rules, and formats. Just fight. Just wrestle. The formats we have had for years are good enough. The people do not want to train for something serious so they make up strange formats in an effort to make everyone feel included. Silly.

Cheers
JAB

[cerebus]

Hi Jake.

Yeah, I know what you mean about the impact of a good round kick. When I fought at the International Le Tai Championship in '08, one of my opponents had a SERIOUS round kick! Took both my legs out from under me with one kick! But after that I knew what to look for, and when he threw it I moved out of range then attacked when his momentum took him way off line. Still, as you mention, some guys can throw with less telegraphing than others.

Thanks for the suggestions regarding drills. I wish I had more access to training partners, but for the moment alot of my training has to be solo. Eventually I hope to be able to join a local boxing/ kickboxing gym so as to have plenty of good training/ sparring partners, but til then I'll do whatever I'm able to do on my own.

I find that a good piece of solo training equipment is the small (as in baseball-size) double-end ball. Basically like the larger inflatable version, but it's made of foam-rubber and the size of a baseball. Hard as HAYELL to hit when it gets going, and VERY good for hand-eye coordination and punching accuracy.

[Three Harmonies]

That, a slip ball, a heavybag will most likely be the best equipment for solo work.
Move to Seattle, you will have at least one training partner;)
What are you prepping for?

Cheers
Jake

[cerebus]

I'm getting ready for a couple of fight nights being hosted by the East Bay Rats Motorcycle club in a couple weeks. It's an open event using boxing equipment and rules and you never know who you might end up in the ring with, anyone from bikers and brawlers to boxers and black belts.

[cerebus]

As for moving to Seattle, that would be interesting, but right now I'm still just trying to catch up on back rent that I owe. Need to pay the peeps that need payin' before I have money for anything else... :o

[Three Harmonies]

Understood.
Be careful fighting in **** like that.
Kick ass!
JAB

[cerebus]

Understood.
Be careful fighting in **** like that.
Kick ass!
JAB

Heh, heh, thanks! Yeah, I almost fought in one of their fight nights a few years back, but made the mistake of bringing my girlfriend at the time. She had been raised as a peace-loving Berkeley girl and after seeing the first 3 matches (which were bloody as heck, including a women's match) she kinda freaked out and started to have a panic attack AS I was getting ready to STEP INTO THE RING! :( We were living together at the time, so I had to make a hard decision (and probably looked totally puzzy-whipped in front of all these bikers) and choose not to do it (with my hands already wrapped, mouthpiece in, and opponent in the ring waiting)... :(

Guess who ISN'T invited this time? ;) :D

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/user/NoLuan

um, like, not real, hello...

[cerebus]

http://www.youtube.com/user/NoLuan

The thing I dislike about those fights is that they don't allow striking to the head and they wear thick chest guards under the shirts. Kinda nullifies everything except throws...

[Liokault]

look up old posts by a guy called Liokault he used to post here and fight full contact alot, his line of tai chi in the UK are well known for fighting sanshou here and in hong kong

Sadly, I'm now a pacifist.

[cerebus]

On this subject, I had my fight last week and won, though I was somewhat less than satisfied with the ending.

The guy I fought was a little over 6 feet tall and weighed around 200 lbs (I'm 5 foot 10 inches and weigh 170). As soon as the fight started he was trying to send my head into orbit with his punches. This, however, had the effect of making his punches easy to see coming. Anyway, I evaded most of his attacks and used my hands & forearms to absorb & neutralize the rest while landing many hard shots and combos on his head and body, hurting him several times.

The disappointing part was that I was winning the match pretty thoroughly when I tripped on the loose canvas covering the ring platform. I was getting back to my feet and my opponent punched me while I was still down, causing the referee to disqualify him. Anyway... I won by DQ, but I was on my way to winning the match with skillful fighting. Right now I'm still trying to get either some of the video or even the still photos that were taken during the fight, though the people who have them don't seem to be in any hurry to share... :(