Historical accounts of interaction between southern and northern styles?

[hajimesaito]

Are there any genuine accounts of expert martial artists from Northern China interacting (or fighting) with masters from the South in and around the beginning of this century?

I know that Wang Xiangzhai once fought a white crane master in Fukien and found him to be of equal skills. Ku Yu Cheung, of Northern Shaolin, was also quite well known in defeating many southern stylists when he went to South China (he defeated Tam Sam of CLF also if I am not wrong).

Yip Man was quite famous in HK even when there were many other famous Northern Martial artists residing there at that time. I am sure his popularity must have created some envy or even curiosity among other Northern stylists at that time?

[kfman5F]

Shaw Bros?:)

[bawang]

Are there any genuine accounts of expert martial artists from Northern China interacting (or fighting) with masters from the South in and around the beginning of this century?


no ddfgrdg

[bawang]

well there was actually one time, the boxer rebellion. the evil demon wizards and witches from the east of the sea were hypnotizing innocent people and making them convert to their fire religion. they sang strange songs and put up giant pieces of wood that look like the letter ten.

they were kidnapping children and using their eyes and hearts sacrifice to their fire god Ye Su and his father Ye Ho. luckily the heroic boxer rebels stopped them in time and saved all of china. over 1 thousand evil demon wizards were destroyed.
also sadly over ten thousand people had to be put out of their mesery, becuse they were hypnotized by the evil wizards and had their qi sucked out of their bodies.

the east sea barbaians sent their magical fire spear teams to kill the boxers, but the boxers put on taoist charms that made them invulnerable to bullets. then the evil wizards put a spell on their bullets and killed the boxer rebels, but their spirits became spirit soldiers and came down from heaven and destroyed the barbarians. they protect kung fu people even today.

if u look up in the clouds, some time u wil see clouds that look maybe like man, but is not man, but ur not sure, maybe yes maybe no. that is boxer spirit soldiers looking after you

[CLFNole]

Ku Yu Cheung and Tam Sam were have said to have fought to a draw, if it was even really a fight at all as nobody really knows. They were both to have admired each others skills which is why they exchanged some students.

[goju]

i think something was posted here recently about yip man tossing a northern mantis guy off a stage

[Lokhopkuen]

Ku Yu Cheung and Tam Sam were have said to have fought to a draw, if it was even really a fight at all as nobody really knows. They were both to have admired each others skills which is why they exchanged some students.

Well if it was a draw where did Buck Sing CLF rise from? There are no such divisions in Bak Siu Lum? The "draw" was a courtesy extended to Tan Sam so as not to lose face:rolleyes:

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

[QUOTE=hajimesaito;1015275]I know that Wang Xiangzhai once fought a white crane master in Fukien and found him to be of equal skills. Ku Yu Cheung, of Northern Shaolin, was also quite well known in defeating many southern stylists when he went to South China (he defeated Tam Sam of CLF also if I am not wrong).QUOTE]

"QUTE Lukhopkune - The "draw" was a courtesy extended to Tan Sam so as not to lose face"


A history lesson for you both as You Are Wrong.

In 1928 many northern kung fu masters went to the southern China to teach the northern style kung fu. Among these northern masters were Man Lai Sing, Lai Sing Ng, Foo Jun Soong and the well-known Grandmaster Ku Yu Cheung who was famous for his kicks and his ‘Iron Sand Palm.’

Ku Yu Cheung came to Guangzhou to teach the Northern Shaolin (Buck Sil Lum) style kung fu. He held a press conference and announced that he would set up a tournament to provide an opportunity for the southern martial artists to experience his northern style kung fu and vice versa. Many local kung fu masters considered this as a challenge and showed up at the tournament. GM Tarm Sarm and a few of his students including his most favorite disciple Lun Chee also went.

When they arrived at the tournament, they found out that it was only a demonstration tournament and not a sparring tournament - Shame as GM Tarm Sarm went there to fight not demonstrate..... - Anyway, since they came, they decided to stay and check things out. Ku Yu Cheung saw and recognized GM Tarm Sarm. He approached GM Tarm Sarm and humbly introduced himself. Ku Yu Cheung praised Tarm Sarm for his extraordinary combat ability with many flattering words. He told Tarm Sarm that he well aware of Tarm Sarm’s reputation, and respected him as a martial arts hero.

When the demonstration tournament was over, Ku Yu Cheung invited GM Tarm Sarm for a late dinner. During the dinner, Ku Yu Cheung related to GM Tarm Sarm that he would like to teach Northern Shaolin in Guangzhou and asked for GM Tarm Sarm's help and advice. As an honourable martial artist who truly understood and appreciated the difficulty that a northern master had to overcome in order to successfully open a Gwoon in the South, GM Tarm Sarm decided to help Ku Yu Cheung. He suggested that they should exchange students. By doing that, GM Tarm Sarm was actually telling all the southern kung fu masters that he validated Ku Yu Cheung. That would eliminate a lot of problems which Ku Yu Cheung had to face otherwise.

Grandmaster Tarm Sarm was a kung fu genius. He continuously strived to improve the combat techniques of Choy Lay Fut and put these techniques to test for practicality by applying them in fights. In over 100 fighting matches with masters of many other kung fu styles, Tarm Sarm was never defeated. At that time, he was recognised as a leading martial artist and was given the title “Sun Sau (God’s Hand) Tarm Sarm.”

At that time, this exchange program was a legacy in the kung fu world.

[SPJ]

I think that it is more important to know who brought northern stuff south, such as mantis, tai chi etc

who brought southern stuff north etc.

CLF were actually compilation of northern stuff and some southern stuff right?

on and on.

[SPJ]

spreading or propagating a style took more than one person

it took many students who fought successfully locally and taught more students

who brought mantis and tai chi to hongkong?

most people only associate wing chun with hong kong.

who brought so and so to south east asia such as white crane, 5 ancestor, hong fist (tiger/crane)----

in short, it took many to spread wing chun to the rest of the world

if you only consider single challeng fight, you are missing the big picture

which is that many students of a style fought successfully and taught more students to propagate a said style in a said area or country--

[SPJ]

CLF is a style of interaction of both north and south?

[jdhowland]

CLF is a style of interaction of both north and south?

Yep. That's the story, anyway.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=Lokhopkuen;1015313]Well if it was a draw where did Buck Sing CLF rise from? There are no such divisions in Bak Siu Lum? ...QUOTE]

It was Tam Sam's own version of Hung Sing, named for the school's location in an area called Siu Bak. Hence, Siu Bak Hung Sing Gun.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=SPJ;1015346]I think that it is more important to know who brought northern stuff south, such as mantis, tai chi etcQUOTE]

Well, the Kwomingtang and National Army brought a lot of stuff south to Formosa. ; )

The monk known as Sing Lung brought a northern style to Gwongdung around 150 years ago. His teachings supposedly had a lot of influence upon Cantonese schools and became the source of Lama, Hop Ga and "Tibetan" White Crane. Nobody would mistake these as homegrown southern fists.

[taai gihk yahn]

well there was actually one time, the boxer rebellion. the evil demon wizards and witches from the east of the sea were hypnotizing innocent people and making them convert to their fire religion. they sang strange songs and put up giant pieces of wood that look like the letter ten.

they were kidnapping children and using their eyes and hearts sacrifice to their fire god Ye Su and his father Ye Ho. luckily the heroic boxer rebels stopped them in time and saved all of china. over 1 thousand evil demon wizards were destroyed.
also sadly over ten thousand people had to be put out of their mesery, becuse they were hypnotized by the evil wizards and had their qi sucked out of their bodies.

the east sea barbaians sent their magical fire spear teams to kill the boxers, but the boxers put on taoist charms that made them invulnerable to bullets. then the evil wizards put a spell on their bullets and killed the boxer rebels, but their spirits became spirit soldiers and came down from heaven and destroyed the barbarians. they protect kung fu people even today.

if u look up in the clouds, some time u wil see clouds that look maybe like man, but is not man, but ur not sure, maybe yes maybe no. that is boxer spirit soldiers looking after you

you know, you come here and post these fabricated stories and people are supposed to just believe your ridiculous lies; for example, the Evil Wizards didn't suck the qi out of anyone's bodies, they used their Dharma Codex Spell Compendium powers to reverse the polarity of their victims qi, thus creating a state of hyper-suggestability - and that is how the Evil Wizards were able to make everyone DO THEIR BIDDING!
and the other crazy bit about putting a spell on bullets - clearly if you knew ANYTHING about metallurgy, you would know that at the time, the bullets were made of lead; and lead, being the softest known metal, is unable to hold any sort of necromantic-based spell charge for more than a few seconds before simply collapsing like an undercooked soufflé; if you really knew your history, you'd know that the Evil Wizards in fact created a Dendro-Orchidic Vanadium Cryo-Matrix (or at least as good of a version as they could, given that Valrog the Gnarled forgot to bring the Sindarian Amog Talisman...again!), which nullified the Sanctuarium Field generated by the so-called "Taoist Charms", thereby allowing the ORDINARY, UN-CHARMED lead bullets to penetrate the boxer's bodies (unfortunately, none of them had completed the full scope of their Ironic Body training, otherwise they would have all died with knowing smirks of resignation; but I digress);
so do us all a favor, Mr. So-called "Bawang", and get your facts straight the next time you want to come on here and edumacate the rest of us!:mad::mad::mad:

[Lokhopkuen]

[QUOTE=hajimesaito;1015275]I know that Wang Xiangzhai once fought a white crane master in Fukien and found him to be of equal skills. Ku Yu Cheung, of Northern Shaolin, was also quite well known in defeating many southern stylists when he went to South China (he defeated Tam Sam of CLF also if I am not wrong).QUOTE]

"QUTE Lukhopkune - The "draw" was a courtesy extended to Tan Sam so as not to lose face"


A history lesson for you both as You Are Wrong.

In 1928 many northern kung fu masters went to the southern China to teach the northern style kung fu. Among these northern masters were Man Lai Sing, Lai Sing Ng, Foo Jun Soong and the well-known Grandmaster Ku Yu Cheung who was famous for his kicks and his ‘Iron Sand Palm.’

Ku Yu Cheung came to Guangzhou to teach the Northern Shaolin (Buck Sil Lum) style kung fu. He held a press conference and announced that he would set up a tournament to provide an opportunity for the southern martial artists to experience his northern style kung fu and vice versa. Many local kung fu masters considered this as a challenge and showed up at the tournament. GM Tarm Sarm and a few of his students including his most favorite disciple Lun Chee also went.

When they arrived at the tournament, they found out that it was only a demonstration tournament and not a sparring tournament - Shame as GM Tarm Sarm went there to fight not demonstrate..... - Anyway, since they came, they decided to stay and check things out. Ku Yu Cheung saw and recognized GM Tarm Sarm. He approached GM Tarm Sarm and humbly introduced himself. Ku Yu Cheung praised Tarm Sarm for his extraordinary combat ability with many flattering words. He told Tarm Sarm that he well aware of Tarm Sarm’s reputation, and respected him as a martial arts hero.

When the demonstration tournament was over, Ku Yu Cheung invited GM Tarm Sarm for a late dinner. During the dinner, Ku Yu Cheung related to GM Tarm Sarm that he would like to teach Northern Shaolin in Guangzhou and asked for GM Tarm Sarm's help and advice. As an honourable martial artist who truly understood and appreciated the difficulty that a northern master had to overcome in order to successfully open a Gwoon in the South, GM Tarm Sarm decided to help Ku Yu Cheung. He suggested that they should exchange students. By doing that, GM Tarm Sarm was actually telling all the southern kung fu masters that he validated Ku Yu Cheung. That would eliminate a lot of problems which Ku Yu Cheung had to face otherwise.

Grandmaster Tarm Sarm was a kung fu genius. He continuously strived to improve the combat techniques of Choy Lay Fut and put these techniques to test for practicality by applying them in fights. In over 100 fighting matches with masters of many other kung fu styles, Tarm Sarm was never defeated. At that time, he was recognised as a leading martial artist and was given the title “Sun Sau (God’s Hand) Tarm Sarm.”

At that time, this exchange program was a legacy in the kung fu world.

I've heard this story actually (((I was just being cheeky and obnoxious))):cool:

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

QUOTE:Lukhopkune: I've heard this story actually (((I was just being cheeky and obnoxious)))


I'm sure you were ;):cool:

[hajimesaito]

I think styles like Pak Mei, white crane, mantis etc from the South can give good competition to many Northern styles. Choy Li Fut and Hap gar, with their long arm movements, would be quite interesting to watch against the Northern Tongbei and Pigua styles. It would be interesting to see a Baji fighter from the North going against a Hung Gar expert from the South.

Even though I do not know about such historical accounts, and would be glad to know in fact, I have quite often heard that the Northern styles are considered superior and even the Southerners agree with it.

[jdhowland]

. ...Even though I do not know about such historical accounts, and would be glad to know in fact, I have quite often heard that the Northern styles are considered superior and even the Southerners agree with it.

That's a statement that could start some sparks flying. Of course, it could be endlessly argued to no end: "Superior in what way," etc., etc. But I thought your comment was interesting because when my Tibetan White Crane teacher came back from a trip to Hong Kong around '75 he mentioned that the southern systems were loosing ground to the northern. "They think it's better," he said.

[bawang]

i think theres no big difference between north and southern kung fu. chinese martial arts is supposed to unite people not separate people.

if u want real "genuine accounts": general qijiguang a north general. and yu dayou a southern general. they both had very high kill death ratios. i think thats the best because they kiled peoples for reals and not just in made up stories told by some guangdong scammer

[Lokhopkuen]

when they fight it all looks the same

All except for asshammer style:rolleyes:

[bawang]

jab cross jab cross muay thai kick
jab cross jab cross muay thai kick
half assed judo throw
failed taekwondo kick
jab cross jab cross muay thai kick

[SPJ]

diversity is a better term than superiority.

in the north, there are great plains of glass land and earth land.

with wide open space, there were more huge scale of warfares.

the mongols on the horseback with archery would defeat infantry.

the xiang bei, jin (liao), xiong nu--- so many migrating tribes tried to invade central plains for food, especially during harvest times

thus many fighting methods were learned and integrated in the north. most important is the castle or fortress defense. the most obvious example would be the great walls--

in the south, there are many hills and forbidding waters and mountains, there are many passes or guan or narrow passage ways, so you did not see large scale of warfare, local and small scale or village defense were more important

--

in the north, the MA was diverse and integrated from many sources due to many tribes tried to enter central plains

in the south, the MA was diverse due to forbidding terrains to travel, let along to fight a large scale war, there were many ethnics, and dialects

--

once a mongol king tried to take a fortress in the south, was killed under the fortress

so not neccesarily superior, all depending on contexts

in a wide open space such as grassland or earthland, yes horseman and archery had advantage over foot soldiers

in a narrow passage way of the south, a fortress would stop a large army with horse and archery and what not--

[hajimesaito]

I myself came to know about one such fight between a southern stylists and a northern stylist. The Southern stylist was the famous Ip Shui of southern praying mantis system and and Northern stylist was a resident of USA who was expert in Xingyi. The story comes from the mantis practitioners and they say that both of these fighters fought each other in the 60s in HK and the fight ended as a draw. Since then Ip Shui developed great respect for the art of Xingyi.

So, after all, southern arts are no less than northern arts! I know its a premature judgement as we dont know anything about the Xingyi fighter; his age, experience etc. But still, its quite interesting that Ip shui could be equally matched against a fighter of this famous style known for its raw power.