A word to the WCK family

[Hendrik]

The older I am the more I learn to not critics others, and let it be because everyone has their own karma.

However, after a some thinking, I am posting this post. Some will not like what I am posting here. and To be real honest, I dont like to post this too because it hurts me more then anyone to post this.

But then, if I dont post this, how can I face my sifu late GM Choe Hung-choy? how can I face the ancestors of Cho family? how can I face the general public on what is Choe family WCK? how can I face Yik Kam himself?

As a traditional Chinese martial artists, I was taught to place speaking the facts as the highest priority. even if the whole world is against me, still I need to speak the facts.

At one point, some one told me I am walking alonely path and ask me to give up and to go with the political flow.

I dont because I am not walking a lonely path, but I am walking the same path with many of others in the past, present, and future. It is just a simple path of placing the facts more then one's own benifit.






1, The following is not my sifu late GM Choe Hung-Choy's teaching. and not accord to the Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit on the power development.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IdDehQyZZ8&feature=related



For anyone who like to have a taste how the movement/ posture my late sifu taught
The following could be used as a reference even though that is still using a different type of power development as I was taught by my late sifu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBsnNDXKI8&NR=1






2, the following is also not my sifu late GM Choe Hung-Choy's teaching. In fact, my late sifu have never teaches CK and BJ set. This is because Yik Kam lineage has a four section long SLT set which include the content of CK and BJ of other lineages.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XvSnKa3kv0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLI8tid33Io&feature=related




My wishes here are to please please please to be honest, do not make sifu responsible for your evolution. Take responsibility on the evolution you made for yourself. You might know WCK better or your WCK might not longer WCK. any case, I respect your evolution.




I dont like to comment on how different person practice here on Choe or Cho family or Yik Kam lineage WCK. However, I do strongly stress, there is a complete Kuen kuit and one always can use that kuen kuit as reference to see how close or far one's practice is.

Thus, I encourage WCners from other lineages who is interested in WCK from Yik Kam and Cho family lineage based the kuen kuit as the reference.


Best Wishes to everyone.

[FongSung]

The links are obviously not Cho Ga Wing Chun.

[JPinAZ]

As usual, I am not sure I understand even one single point of your whole post, Hendrik. Why post things if they have nothing to do with your sifu's teaching or Yik Kam wing chun? What is the point?
Or, perhaps they were taught something you were not?

If you want to show what YOUR WCK looks like, why not make the video of yourself and show them (and us) how it's supposed to be done?

[chusauli]

From what I see of the video on youtube, Wong Kiew Kit has posted his version of WCK.

Although Master Wong is a noted SE Asian martial artists that has written numerous books, the art he has demonstrated appears more "Hung Gar-like" than the Yik Kam WCK that was passed down from Cho Hung Choy to Hendrik Santo.

I can only surmise this is his interpretation of the art and is complete with Hung Gar stances, sounds and power generation, although the sequence of identifiable moves would seem to indicate there was some study with the late Cho Hung Choy. It is not WCK from its signatures.

Cho Hung Choy's art is complete with a set of Yik Kam Kuen Kuit and a 4 section Siu Lien Tao set, short Muk Yan Jong set, 13 spear 6.5 pole, and butterfly knives set, and Chi Sao Loong matching set. Master Cho did he borrow any Yip Man WCK terminology of Chum Kiu and Biu Jee, which Master Wong has romanized as, "Cham Kiew" or "Phew Chee" of the "Cho(e) Family".

[Hendrik]

Anyone who is interested in the Yik Kam's 4 sections SLT could read the following


http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=13366#13366

[Hendrik]

Master Cho didnt borrow any Yip Man WCK terminology of Chum Kiu and Biu Jee,


In my recollection,

I have personally asked my late sifu on the Yip Man WCK Terminology, and my late sifu told me

1, we go with what the ancestors passed to us.
2, we do the 4 sections SLT and the WCK concept is there.




BTW:

I started this post with only one intention and that is not to muddy up what my late sifu's taught.

As for how GM Wang my siheng like to evolve his art, that I totally accept and support. Thus, there is nothing personal here.

[bitter eater]

Ku choi wah lineage Siu Lin tao (not siu lien tao).
any closer to what you were taught hendrick? Just curious.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMseK4NImCU

[Hendrik]

Ku choi wah lineage Siu Lin tao (not siu lien tao).
any closer to what you were taught hendrick? Just curious.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMseK4NImCU


This is also an evolution version. it is not the 4 section Siu Lin Tao.

[bitter eater]

I already stated it wasn't the 4 section Siu Lien Tao, but the siu lin tao taught to beginners.
what I meant to ask you was is this similar in energy, movements etc to what were taught? I didn't ask you if it was the same form, I already know it's not the 4 section SLT, although some of the sections are the same or similar.

[Hendrik]

Good question.


Could you please shared who are you and who do you study WCK from? and Which lineage?





I already stated it wasn't the 4 section Siu Lien Tao, but the siu lin tao taught to beginners.

For me,
you have answered your own question above.



BTW: The Yik Kam siu Lien Tao's Lien means training. what is the Lin of siu lin tao means?

[Hendrik]

So some ask me what is it.

Well, I have reveal it long time ago. see for yourself what i show in the youtube and the kuen kuit and other writing. see how it is link and how it is in writing and in practice of my Yik Kam SLT. There is no secret but only required one's patient and observation to investigate what it is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ntCGIoMvM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g&feature=related




http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1267
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=997258&postcount=160
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=993125&postcount=38

[bitter eater]

I meant to type Siu Lim tao - small/little idea. As opposed to Siu Lien tao - small training.

[bitter eater]

How have I answered my own question? I don't understand what you mean.
I was looking for a simple yes or no to my original question-
is the SLT in the video similar in energy or movements to the slt you were taught?

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't understand what you mean.
don't worry, nobody here does; you'll get used to it...(and now he's going to send me some love, I can just feel it...);

[Hendrik]

I meant to type Siu Lim tao - small/little idea. As opposed to Siu Lien tao - small training.

Ok. Understood.

it is the Lim or Niem as how GM Ip Man's signature on his lineage to call his first set.

[Hendrik]

How have I answered my own question? I don't understand what you mean.
I was looking for a simple yes or no to my original question-
is the SLT in the video similar in energy or movements to the slt you were taught?



Here is my view, see if it suit you.


As you said,


I already stated it wasn't the 4 section Siu Lien Tao, but the siu lin tao taught to beginners.

and,

it is a fact according to the kuen kuit that the 4 section SLT is not for beginner, beginner doesnt handle the type of details in power generation or energy or movement : such as sink Qi, and flow with medirians... force vectors....short inch jin...etc.


Is this answer your questions?




If you like to know more,
perhaps it is better to ask the person who evolve or create this set to explain his motivation behind it, what he expects one could learn from this set, and what is the different between this set compare with the 4 section SLT.



BTW:

Would you kindly share your name, your lineage, how long you have train, and who is your sifu? So we know who you are and your level depth needed in this discussion.

[Hendrik]

don't worry, nobody here does; you'll get used to it...(and now he's going to send me some love, I can just feel it...);

You are right, I am sending you more love with a message

"It you learn to shut up on things you are clueless. others will take you to be more wiser. I hope you are smart enough to not make youself look like an idiot fool for your own good."

[punchdrunk]

the best way to show the truth is to do just that.. show it. Otherwise it's a war of words. Take Yip Man vids for example, hard to argue with them as a record of a specific place and time.

[hunt1]

Hendrik In your stance do you sink to the dan tein or do you sink to earth?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik In your stance do you sink to the dan tein or do you sink to earth?

all needs to know about dan tien is here, take it extremely serious because lots of people mis understood, and doing mis practice on dan tien stuffs. that cause problem.

and I post it a while ago.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=997258&postcount=160

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g&feature=related

also, to be real real honest, the sink to earth concept is just a very superficial concept for begineer. dont ever expect this concept can carry one more then junior level.


Examine it, who in this world has training the " sink to the earth concept " and capable to Fa jin/ issue force or Hua Jin/ dissove force?

in general such sinking concept might be able to do some static gimmic but can do anything in dynamic situation.


Real life is about Balancing in a dynamic state, it is not about sinking because sinking is just one out of six vector force components in a 3D space.


IMHO,
The Yik Kam's SLT technology is a mind, body, force vectors dynamic flow balancing practice. when one is in a balance state one is actually feeling like "levitate" or effortless. that is the pre-requisite for flow. Comes accept goes return right?

it is certainly certainly NOT the upper body looks soft and the bottom is rigid and sinking to ground. That is actually DEAD and stuck.


Using the surfing as an analogy, if one can surf one could surf with big wave, otherwise one got sweep away. and a rigid and sinking to ground is hopeless facing a big wave. eventhough it might looks good while practicing in a bar tub and taking picture.

[hunt1]

Hendrik perhaps we are not talking about the same thing. Yes it may be beginner level but with out the proper basics nothing else will ever work correctly. This leads to so many different methods trying to mimic or get close to what they have heard or seen as correct but never able to duplicate it. If you can't stand you can't fight ,train proper energy , learn the horizontal or vertical circles use spirals etc.

You have been talking about the engine for power generation. How one stands will determine what one can use and what one will use. So to talk the engine that powers the system one must start at the basic stance and that stance will then present its own set of possible methods of power generation.

I am not a TCM expert and I never spent much time on traditional terms so this is how I answer the question I asked you in very basic manner. Sinking to the dan tein results in legs that are tight,firm in some cases tense. Sinking to earth the legs and supple and loose . You need supple loose legs to react in a dynamic fashion. Sink to earth does not = grounding or rooting. Sink to earth results in being able to surf. Not rigid at all sink to dan tein results in rigid locked body type of structure. Most WC I have observed is using a form of sink to dan tein.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik perhaps we are not talking about the same thing.

Yes it may be beginner level but with out the proper basics nothing else will ever work correctly.

This leads to so many different methods trying to mimic or get close to what they have heard or seen as correct but never able to duplicate it. If you can't stand you can't fight ,train proper energy , learn the horizontal or vertical circles use spirals etc.

You have been talking about the engine for power generation. How one stands will determine what one can use and what one will use. So to talk the engine that powers the system one must start at the basic stance and that stance will then present its own set of possible methods of power generation.

I am not a TCM expert so this is how I answer the question i asked you.


IMHO,


You see, one doesnt have to be a TCM expert.

Read my post carefully outside your thinking box. then you will see the rainbow I show you.



looking at the

Aircraft Dynamics, Abbreviated, Part 2, Calculating Forces and Torques of the following site
http://www.berkeleyscience.com/airplane.htm

one can see, "sink" itself is not edequate to describe or model a reality in the 3D space. even when one stand statically, not to mention when one got to move and everything move dynamically. "sinking" is simply in adequate because there are others force vectors needs to be balance.

analogy to the simplified air plane picture above, one needs to deal with the drag, trust, and lift be it when one is standing. So, the six directional force vectors and all the posts and the youtube I post up there is to address the basic of those stuffs. nothing so mysterious or difficult.

One cannot and must not throw out the other components and only talk about sinking. That is because sinking or downward direction force vector is just a piece of the story, there are 5 others pieces needs to be handle and balance.

Certainly, I can give you a B$ answer as ya, sink to Dan Die, sink to K1..... but those are B$ which is misleading. I choose not to go that way because I want to be honest with you.


The bottom line is, one needs to handle the six directional forces to be in a balance be it in static or dynamic state. and the general so called Sinking/rooting concept doesnt work to model the reality and create problem. so, dont go that way.

In WCK, in SLT we are suppose to master the small details. So as soon as we can handle the six directional force vectors, it doesnt matter what is other's baijong or kiu sau or posture or sinking..... Peng jing....etc all could be anylize with the six directional force vectors and handle them.

So, just learn the six directional force vectors, and master it and use the tools to solve any in coming issues. keep it simple. that is how to get to advance Kung fu. knowing the keys and master the keys.

[kung fu fighter]

Real life is about Balancing in a dynamic state, it is not about sinking because sinking is just one out of six vector force components in a 3D space.

Hendrik,
I couldn't have said it any better.
The feeling is very similar to that of one being submerged in water:)

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,
I couldn't have said it any better.
The feeling is very similar to that of one being submerged in water:)


Sure, but I am here preaching for almost a decade and have big time difficulties to get people to see very simple things.

always people will tell me, oh I have it too. oh my baijong is what you talking about.....etc

all crazy stuffs and infact from their post one knows they dont even come close to know what I am talking about.



So, if you listen to me, give up those sinking, grounding, .... concept. go six directional force, thinking you are surfing. So you cant "sink"; no way, the wave wont let you and also you dont want to drown, but you want to track the wave so that you have a dynamic balance of lift and sink, and make use of the wave's motion as needed via controlling your lift/sink/drag/trust....anything you want to call it,
so use the six directional force vectors balancing to balance yourself and move forward.

Nothing fix, for there is no such thing as the same Wave you could ride twice. That is comes accept, goes return... not block because there is no break in surfing.


stop those non sense sitting there in YJKYM and thinking the world is under your belt as soon as you sink and press forward, ya, until some one hug your waist and you got take down. then where is your press forward and sink ?

[hunt1]

Hendrik we seem to be talking past each other not to each other. You did not start you first day of wing chun with an understanding or an ability to use 6 force vectors. I highly doubt your Sifu said " Here Hendrik this is how to use and apply 6 force vectors" on day One. He did however very early in your training show you a basic stance ,how to get into this stance and gave some basic explanation of why this stance instead of your karate stance.

The use of force vectors is advanced and complicated and many high quality athletes do such things naturally with out even understanding what they are doing. Also there are many ways to skin a cat. There is art and there is practical. However all of it starts with a basic stance and a basic understanding of the use of the body, biomechanics for the more advanced.

Be it golf or baseball or boxing or football or weightlifting or wing chun there is a basic stance and that is always the starting point for the advanced methods to come.

You said that the folks in the vids did not represent your way of power generation or force handling. There fore the question how do you stand?

[Hendrik]

You did not start you first day of wing chun with an understanding or an ability to use 6 force vectors.

I highly doubt your Sifu said " Here Hendrik this is how to use and apply 6 force vectors" on day One.

He did however very early in your training show you a basic stance ,how to get into this stance and gave some basic explanation of why this stance instead of your karate stance.




You are right.



However,

How do you think I was train the first night when I become In Door student and how much is my progress that same night? just one night?

That is when I realize why do we need to waste so much time for nonsense?
Sure, the nonsense is needed because one needs to make sure the student behave properly before one give them the real thing.


and I did it here because I love WCK and I would like to give you the best and just hope that I can trust you guys to NOT use it to hurt others and for macho reason.

Why do I want to waste your time and life?





You said that the folks in the vids did not represent your way of power generation or force handling. There fore the question how do you stand?

and I reply you all in my previous post and in the youtube, I dont stand, I "levitate"

[sanjuro_ronin]

However,

How do you think I was train the first night when I become In Door student and how much is my progress that same night? just one night?

That is when I realize why do we need to waste so much time for nonsense?
Sure, the nonsense is needed because one needs to make sure the student behave properly before one give them the real thing.

That speaks volumes.

[hunt1]

Good now we are getting somewhere.

Your first day as In Door student may have started with something like , Now I so you the good stuff, the longest journey begins with the first step and then your Sifu probably started explaining and correcting your stance and body usage. You did not levitate on day one. In fact I think it took you decades to " levitate in a useful fashion. If you could have done so a decade ago your meeting with Andreas would have been different would it not?

So neither Sifu in the videos levitate and this is clear. The question still remains what are the first second and third steps to learn to "levitate" stance is shoulder width that goes without saying the knees sink forward? Knees just soft? Knees locked ? knees straight without give or bend?

There is an order to things? What is your order? We see the other sifu's order.

[duende]

The use of force vectors is advanced and complicated and many high quality athletes do such things naturally with out even understanding what they are doing. Also there are many ways to skin a cat. There is art and there is practical. However all of it starts with a basic stance and a basic understanding of the use of the body, biomechanics for the more advanced.



Now you're talking crazy! ;) :D


But you know don't you, that you have to be an in-door student to learn that we live in 3-d space, and there exists combined height, width, and depth elements to the understanding of redirecting energy.

How much does one have to pay for THESE ancient Chinese secrets?? :p

Must be lot's because from what I've seen in most vids... 2-d Huen Sau's are on sale!


Actually, I understand Hendrik being bitter about his Sihings doing his forms with Hung Gar energy.

But like you say.... there are many different ways to skin a cat. And there is MUCH more knowledge to Bai Jong and Kiu Sau, than what was presented in those vids of his..

But then again, maybe his Sihing didn't pay as much as Hendrick did, for the REAL stuff.

Heck... Maybe Yik Kam taught all his students White Crane just to throw them off from the real deal Wing Chun! :eek: ;)

Just saying... Haha..

Sorry, but you got to laugh at this $hit once in awhile.

[Hendrik]

Your first day as In Door student may have started with something like , Now I so you the good stuff, the longest journey begins with the first step and then your Sifu probably started explaining and correcting your stance and body usage.

You did not levitate on day one.

In fact I think it took you decades to " levitate in a useful fashion.


Your speculation is certainly possible for some one else. However, that is not my experience.

Similar to those who learn how to swim instead of standing in the pool.
They are clumpsy the first day however they are swimming.
They swim better and better as training accumulate.

As for those who standing there in the pool might or might not swim, and chances are they will not be able to swim. Because they are standing.


You might surprise the different.





If you could have done so a decade ago your meeting with Andreas would have been different would it not?



it is in appropriate to bring Andreas up while we are having a technical discussion; I hope you understand that.

What happen between Andreas and me is none of anyone's business.

But since you bring it up, I put it straight here once for all on record.


1,
I am Chinese Martial artists and the moduk my late sifu taught me is:

Yee Hei means do anything so that your friend is in a good position of encouragement while he is teaching.

It is about supporting a friend's seminal with fun and laughter. it is nothing to do with win or lost. there is no point to compete with friend.

any serious response in action while your friend is teaching a school or seminal in his terretory is consider a challenge.

and that will have to settle with formal kong sau. All friend will avoid to get into those type of trouble at all cost.





Since you brought this up, I am more then welcome for you to:

1, Ask Robert who is there and witness the whole thing, see if I put up any defense?
2, Ask Andreas himself directly why does he said " Hendrik why do you open yourself up? "

Go check it out and get it straight.




2,
After that seminal, a certain group due to their own agenda starts to use ANY information to stir things up with Andreas, Robert, and me.

and, there is an article Written about How Robert propose to not listen and dont respect the older generation.

In fact, before Andreas left after the seminal; Andreas, Robert, and myself were in airport of LA, it is Andreas who brought up the subject of older generation issue, Robert is just listening.

Robert at that time ask me what is this B$ article about, I told him, make believe you are Wong Fei-Hung, will you response to this type of nonsense accusation? It doesnt matter, that got nothing to do with you isnt it.


For those who mis-understood Robert due to that article, this is the time to clear Robert up. It got nothing to do with Robert, it is a make up with an agenda.




3, finally, to answer your question on "would have been different would it not?"

It doesnt matter if it is Robert , Andreas, or any of my other martial art friends; disregards of what is the capability or level of my kung fu,
the out come will have no different -- I support my friend in public. Be it I am playing a clown.

I was taught kung fu is not for showing off in the friend's expense. kung fu is also not for ego boosting. and there is no incentive to show off one's kungfu unless one want to use it


Saying the above, you might not living with the same value or code I have, that is fine with me.

We need to get back to technical topic instead of this side track.





The question still remains what are the first second and third steps to learn to "levitate"

stance is shoulder width that goes without saying
the knees sink forward? Knees just soft? Knees locked ? knees straight without give or bend?


Your thinking pattern lead you to these questions. and that is perfectly normal. because you are in a different paradigm.


There are examples and details orientated type of teaching;
and there are principle or Sum Fatt (heart method) orientated teaching.

those who understand the six directional force vectors will not has to ask these question of knees....etc. because they dont think like you do, They are principle orientated based.
And thus they dont train like you either.





There is an order to things? What is your order? We see the other sifu's order.


EVeryone choose their own path. if you like this way, go a head.

My path is Zen, and NOw is not present, future, or past. Time is non linear. Flow never show up twice.

I expect no one to take what I share with blind faith. and also time will tell if what I share is in fact proper.

[hunt1]

Hendrik while I understand your points I am merely trying to get to a level of explanation where everyone can understand what you are saying. You share a great quantity of information but it is not always understood. There are both cultural and language differences that come into play. You share but if it is not understood is it actually sharing?

I can not see you or touch you the only communication is this inexact method.

As you know Math is universal all those with the same general education level can understand no matter the language. Bio Mechanics is the same, unless you and I are different species , the body can only move is X number of ways and that number is the same for everyone no matter what they are named or how they are described.

No matter how you think you handle force vectors or levitate others do exactly the same thing even if they call it or describe it in a different fashion because there are only a finite number of ways to do it.

There is art and there is practical you know the difference. To handle force involves the use of knees as well as spine chest pelvis elbows etc depending upon the direction of the force being applied and the direction of the force being issued. While relaxation and intent are core all the intent and relaxation and spiral force wont accomplish a thing if your knees are locked or your stance is to wide. You can not adopt to incoming force with a stiff spine of if you are unable to use your chest or if your shoulder becomes disconnected from you core.

As far as what you have done in the past. Force can be handled in a controlled way without causing loss of face if you have the ability to do it. Being able to teach something and being able to perform something are not the same thing. Many can do one and not the other.

Again I am asking you to explain the most basic starting point in a manner that can be clearly understood by all. If you wish to share but not explain that is your right and I have no problem with it but then what is the point of your sharing?

[Hendrik]

1,


To handle force involves the use of knees as well as spine chest pelvis elbows etc depending upon the direction of the force being applied and the direction of the force being issued.

While relaxation and intent are core , all the intent and relaxation and spiral force wont accomplish a thing if your knees are locked or your stance is to wide.

You can not adopt to incoming force with a stiff spine of if you are unable to use your chest or if your shoulder becomes disconnected from you core.


Great.

and share with us how a Sinking which you emphasis can do all of the above.

and how does the mind pay attention to all these stuffs? does the mind even know ?





2,


Force can be handled in a controlled way without causing loss of face if you have the ability to do it.


I am a simple person. my way is simply. There is no issue in lost face when it is friends having fun. if one want to support a friend then do it with single heart.



As for those controlled and ...etc. how many level advance /higher in one's kung fu compare with the opponent does one needs to have to control on others without accident and causing any one to lost face or ...ect?

IMHO,
It is not a martial art movies, and I am not Yik Kam or WXZ or super master. I know what I am doing and good at what I am doing but I am no god and neither invincible that is a reality.





3,



Since you said


As you know Math is universal all those with the same general education level can understand no matter the language. Bio Mechanics is the same, unless you and I are different species , the body can only move is X number of ways and that number is the same for everyone no matter what they are named or how they are described.




using the simple 3 D physics in my previous post on the airplane example.

I have showed that the so called "sinking" is in adequate to model or handle a real life dynamics,

since in real life dynamic, one needs to handle much more then a single sinking or downward force vectors.


why dont you present to us here how can your "sinking" handle and cover the real life dynamic which required more then one single force vector. and what do you mean by



No matter how you think you handle force vectors or levitate others do exactly the same thing even if they call it or describe it in a different fashion because there are only a finite number of ways to do it.

How can others do exactly the same thing?

let's start from basic simple physics and biomechanics. how is the sinking suppose to cover all the other force vectors components? I am very interested to know what is the exactly the same thing?

BTW: what is "levitate " means? Why I coin the term as "levitate"? without knowing that how can you do exactly the same thing? and also what is handling force vectors, how to handle force vectors, please share with us what do these means?

[bennyvt]

wow you didn't stop it as you didn't want him to look bad. seriously, that was the same reason gracie let sukuraba break his arm, he didn't want to make him look bad. If he was your friend he wouldn't want you to let him hurt you or make fun of you. but yeh great reason man:eek:

[Hendrik]

Speaking of the idea of





As far as what you have done in the past. Force can be handled in a controlled way without causing loss of face if you have the ability to do it.


For some one might be real but not in my experience.


Let me share with you all a real situation I get in.


I was sixteen, consider a smart ass renegate in my Kyokushin Kai club in Penang in the late 70's. My instructor is late Joe Chin Tut Chin, who is a 4 degree black belt, a fighter often go training in Japan with Mas Oyama...etc. he is at his peak.

Joe taught me for five years all over my six years high school. So, yes I practice both art, Kyokushin and Wing Chun in the same time. in fact, I love the Kyokushin sparing session because I love sparring and I have lots of tools others doesnt know to test.


So, I was just have my brown belt promotion, I remember that night I am sparring with Joe, he tries to control and subdue me gently because he has confident ...etc. most student would have fear of him and they freeze themselve because his power and speed.

So guess what?

I know I cant fight his power, so, I purposely withdraw my guard, looks chicken out, turn and step one step walk away, that is a set up for him to follow me in. He misjudge and come in close as I have plan; right there I return back slam him with an elbow similar to one in siafa kata, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBSOGmIRoBs
he dodges the elbow, and my back first from that elbow strike slam right into his chest solid.

At that instant, the whole dojo is as quiet as totally dead. Man, a junior brown belt land a solid punch in the top instructor's chest.

Joe got really really ****ed and I know it but the sparing cannot stop there. I know he will go for blood if I did one step wrong from there, So I purposely throw a middle punch and he block it and I take myself down to ground, Joe follow up with a loud KI with a down ward middle punch stop about three inch before me.


So, how many level advance is Joe who has a 4 degree black belt, a participant of Kyokushin Kai world tournament, often go to japan for a few months of training with the big boys including Mas Oyama himself compare with me a kid he taught for 4 years at that time? and look at it still it is very difficult for him to control me and end up he lost face big time.


And also, can I claim I am better then Joe because I spam him solid in the chest? in a point system I would have gain a solid big point. But in the Kyokushin way that doesnt mean anything even that happen in a formal sparing.

[Hendrik]

more info

on Cho family and Yik Kam lineage for those who is interested.


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1016817&postcount=2

[stonecrusher69]

Hendirx i sent you a pm

[Hendrik]

Hendirx i sent you a pm

ok, reply you there.

[Hendrik]

For Yik Kam and Cho family WCK lineage,
the following are a list of what were practicing 40 years or more ago as a the Cho or Yik Kam WCner, hand down by my late sifu Cho Hung Choy.

The following list do not include the CLF or other Kuen Choong related collection sets but WCK Kuen Choong ( seed of martial art ) related only. and each set carry a purpose for the training.


This list is post here so that those who is studying Yik Kam lineage has a reference in today's confusing evolution period.



A, Core of Yik Kam WCK teaching:

* 4 section Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training) with full kuen kuit instruction.




B, Core Illustration of Siu Lien Tao concept application sets:
These are must to have after to aids the SLT.
These two sets are consider the two wings of SLT.
These are old sets which was believe from the Red Boat period in additional to the 4 section SLT.


* Sui Da (distributed strike)

* Jin Jeung (Arrow Palm)
( this set is also some times called CK BJ set by some other branch
the characteristic of this set is using no punch strike )





C, Second core illustration of Siu Lien Tao concept application sets:
These are great to have for further explore the SLT concept.

* Jeet Kuen (Intercepting Fist)
* Fa Kuen (Variegated Fist)
* Jin Kuen (Arrow Fist)
* Taap Chooi (hammer fist)
* Fu Hok kuen (Tiger Crane )
* Joy bat seen Kuen (Drunken Fist)





Drill set :

* Muk Yan Jong (Wooden Dummy)




weapon set:

* Luk Dim Boon Gwun Sup Saam Cheung (Six and a Half Point Pole Thirteen Spear)

* Yan Jee Do (Convergent Shaped Knives) etc.




Two men drill set:

* Chi Sao Lung ( duo Sticking Hands Set)




Chi sau platform:

* Huen cycle, Kaam cycle chi sau platform.

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik says:
For Yik Kam and Cho family WCK lineage,
the following are a list of what were practicing 40 years or more ago as a the Cho or Yik Kam WCner, hand down by my late sifu Cho Hung Choy.

The following list do not include the CLF or other Kuen Choong related collection sets but WCK Kuen Choong ( seed of martial art ) related only. and each set carry a purpose for the training.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kudos to Hendrik for trying to preserve Yik Kam's art- but without active good teaching it will be difficult for the art to avoid what some Yik Kam folks have been doing- mixing CLF and hung kar.
On another point on Hendrik's critique of rooting etc--- in wing chun- there is as happens in forums
some broad over- generalizations ( as for several frequent posters as well) about wing chun which has lots of diversity.The over-generalizations are often projections of what they know or don't know.
Thus in passing-there are Ip Man influenced lines including mine which emphasizes balancing different vectors and directions (six- or even more) in the forms and in applications. This is not a criticism of Yik Kam wc- but a pointing towards the versatility of the inheritance from Ip Man and caution about over generalizations.

joy chaudhuri.

[Hendrik]

Joy,


I brought up the six directional force vectors because we all needs a common tool to analyze and describe Nature.

It is not about generalization however it is about introducing a tool which is details enough to be able for 99% of us to speak a common language and be able to see is there missing element.

IE: What does Sinking means?

as we know in reality there always present a down ward, up ward, left ward, right ward, forward, and back ward at any instant.

So, when some one said sinking. that means one needs to translate and address what does sinking means in the natural phenomenon of the six directional force vectors.

If sinking means only down ward force vectors then what happen to the other five? similar to when one land a plane it is not just going down. it got to take care all of the six force vectors in the same time. otherwise the plane will crash.


In the same token, term like, Sinking, Rooting, grounding.... there are ok in general for generalization however it is extremely in adequate to describe what happen in a world with six directional force vectors.


As for how to handle the six directional force vectors that is depend on the philosophy of the lineage or style. I have no comment on that and respect every one's style and philosophy.

What I am getting into is I dont buy such teaching of Sinking, Rooting, grounding, alignment of Knee and spine, and forward pressure....etc

That is because under the basic force components of the nature -- the six directional/dimensional force vectors, the so called sinking, rooting, grounding. is incomplete in describing a structure whether it is a static or dynamic structure.

So, it is usual, in TCMA to tell others Keep practice some days you will know. Or This is my family secret believe me. Well, in the eyes of the nature --- the six directional force vectors. It is not a solution to just tell others a single force vectors or in complete force vectors and up to others to guess on the next 5 variables. and who the heck can know how tha 5 variables end up? and how is those suppose to get one a good result?

WE speak of to be scientific , using physics, using biomechanics....., so the unless the full six directional force vectors are described. it is not scientific at all.


The above is just a very basic which without it the structure description is in complete. and how can one master a move or a post when the description is in complete and having 5 variables to guess? How is that then of system in term of repeatability? It is a mess.


So, it doesnt matter with Yik Kam or Cho family lineage or any lineage or any style. My expectation is if anyone like to tell a story, one better tell the full story. meaning tell what happen to all the components and leave nothing incomplete.

Again, this is not even in the level of using Jin or force yet.

Thus, bai jong, sinking, grounding, hip press,.. in reality doesnt make much sense unless all the six force vectors being describe.


Some one argue that one must have a flexible spine, a good position knee, certain width of stance....etc.

Well, what is a flexible spine means in term of the six directional force vectors? a flexible spine for those who perform in Bilajo's O show, the yogic, and the common people have a beer belly are different. That too is just an inconsistance describition.
it is not that useful.

and also, how is one 's mind suppose to process all those flexible spine, knees... alignement on the run or dynamic state? It simply cant. mind is too confuse and slow for those type of things. in fact it becomes a burden.

So, my point is simple, if one doesnt have a clear describition, check and balance on what one is talking about. It is problematic.
If one doesnt have a simple principle to follow but rely on the fuzzy flexible spine, knees,, body alignment... the whole thing is a mess while in action eventhough one might sound great teaching some one to stand a post as learn some cultural practice.


and if we keep carrying out things as the above. we all will be screwed. Because the advance TCMA IMA everything is very specifically define and we will never get that far.

Thus, I say, some could argue standing in a swimming pool long enough will make one to be able to swim. Well, what is the Chance? 1/1000? Why not get a proper teaching and learn the first day in the pool and get 95/100 ability to swim.


also, without those six directional force vectors basic, it is very difficult to describe style or dynamic way of handling force or Jin with different philosophy. Thus, practically, realistically, it is a 1/1000 type of deal without the tool.

Why do we want to defend those 1/1000 type of teaching and screw ourself?

Perhaps, it is because our ego wont let us be honest to said, " I dont know" instead of " Oh, I got it too." how is an unrepeatable ill describe process can produce good result effective ? It cant. that is a reality. if anyone studying control system design or industrial engineering or manufacturing engineering.


I am just pointing out a better tool is needed and a good tool save time and get much much better result. in fact, I am not being generalized I am looking for extremely specific and details.


CAn anyone tell me what happen with the six directional force vectors while you are practicing the YJKYM with forward pressing intention statically? is your force structure balance or imbalance?

also, can anyone tell me with the same YJKYM with forward pressing intention practice ; when this type of force structure meet a face to face hug in at the waist level with a momentum power by the same body weight with the acceleration of the central gravity; what happen?
can this structure still sustain and balance or the whole structure totally collapse?

See for yourself, what happen.

just some thought.





PS. sure, some one might say, I turn Darth Vaders because I would like to clone everything and leaving no room for personal style. Well, my point is simple, and that is untill one could clone the basic there is never a personal style anyway. the true jedi knows it must going through the solid discipline to clearly attain the basic before the personal style.


SLT means Details training. How details are we or we are full of " I do it this way because it is my way, but in capable to even describe the basic."

For those who keep bring up bio mechanic and physics as their mantra. Well, unless one could describe all the force vectors components and the trajectory.
there is no different to use bio mechanics and physics as a mantra then using other mantra alibi.
Those are just for arguement to boost ego.


Well, saying enough, let you guys think about it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

there is no different to use bio mechanics and physics as a mantra then using religion mantra.

Dude, do you even know anything about physics and bio-mechanics ???

[Hendrik]

Dude, do you even know anything about physics and bio-mechanics ???


You would like to go there.

describe the 3 D force vector compoments distribution of an action and it is trajectory path as a prerequisite.


Until one could do that what physics? what bio-mechanics?
if one dont even have basic quantitative description of force and basic mechanics. What is it? Nothing.



my expectation is one's description needs to be in the level of the following papers to be anything useful.

http://www.google.com/search?q=3+d+force+vectors+trajectory+mechanics+ro botics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.yahoo:en-US:official&client=firefox

[sanjuro_ronin]

You would like to go there.

describe me the 3 D force vector compoments distribution of an action and it is trajectory path as a prerequisite.


Until you could do that what physics? what bio-mechanics?
if you cant you dont even have basic quantitative description of force and basic mechanics.

I rest my case.
Dude, understand this, every movement the human body ( BIO) makes, is "mechanical", do you understand that?
If you do then you have the core understanding of what bio-mechanics is.
Don't muddle crap up with your fortune cookie crap, you write english just fine.

Describe me ONE human move, just ONE that CAN'T be explained by bio-mechanics, just ONE dude, then both you and I can make some $$$ because we just proves the supernatural !!

[Hendrik]

I rest my case.


Dude, understand this, every movement the human body ( BIO) makes, is "mechanical", do you understand that?

If you do then you have the core understanding of what bio-mechanics is.
Don't muddle crap up with your fortune cookie crap, you write english just fine.

Describe me ONE human move, just ONE that CAN'T be explained by bio-mechanics, just ONE dude, then both you and I can make some $$$ because we just proves the supernatural !!


That is your view and definition.


We can build useful robots today. So dont give me those lips service without the most basic quantitative elements for analysis. such as the most basic elements force vectors components.


my expectation is one's description needs to be in the level of the following papers to be anything useful.

http://www.google.com/search?q=3+d+force+vectors+trajectory+mechanics+ro botics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.yahoo:en-US:official&client=firefox

I am not interested in anything supernature.
anyone want to explained motion with physics and mechanics...bio-mechanics?
provide the basic elements, that is the basic things learn in the physics and mechanics classes right?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1016963]Joy,


I brought up the six directional force vectors because we all needs a common tool to analyze and describe Nature.
((OK))

It is not about generalization however it is about introducing a tool which is details enough to be able for 99% of us to speak a common language and be able to see is there missing element.

IE: What does Sinking means?
((Sinking is NOT the only principle-but it does include getting into the ygkym properly without dualism and finding the balance point))

as we know in reality there always present a down ward, up ward, left ward, right ward, forward, and back ward at any instant.
((Sure...so?))


If sinking means only down ward force vectors then what happen to the other five?

((See above -it incorporates balance in all directions))



What I am getting into is I dont buy such teaching of Sinking, Rooting, grounding, alignment of Knee and spine, and forward pressure....etc

((of course structural integrity is the real aim))

So, it is usual, in TCMA to tell others Keep practice some days you will know. Or This is my family secret believe me. Well, in the eyes of the nature --- the six directional force vectors. It is not a solution to just tell others a single force vectors or in complete force vectors and up to others to guess on the next 5 variables. and who the heck can know how tha 5 variables end up? and how is those suppose to get one a good result?

((Not all lineages mimic the straw man you seem to be describing))



It is a mess.

((some are. Some are not))




Why not get a proper teaching and learn the first day in the pool and get 95/100 ability to swim.

((some have))



Why do we want to defend those 1/1000 type of teaching and screw ourself?

((Dunno. Lots of people follow silly paths in life- not just in wing chun))

Perhaps, it is because our ego wont let us be honest to said, " I dont know" instead of " Oh, I got it too." how is an unrepeatable ill describe process can produce good result effective ? It cant. that is a reality. if anyone studying control system design or industrial engineering or manufacturing engineering.

((Dunno- engineering mixed up with commerce can mess up lots of things- or number 1 military chief Mullen says(yesterday) BP has better tech. than the defense department- welcome to the world of tech-commerce's frankenstein monster in the Gulf of Mexico))


I am just pointing out a better tool is needed and a good tool save time and get much much better result. in fact, I am not being generalized I am looking for extremely specific and details.

(better than what? depends on who what when where you are talking about))



See for yourself, what happen.

(9Been there. Done that. I do test!!))

just some thought.

((some good thoughts- but sometimes over generalized in putting all of wing chun in one bottle))





PS. sure, some one might say, I turn Darth Vaders because I would like to clone everything and leaving no room for personal style. Well, my point is simple, and that is untill one could clone the basic there is never a personal style anyway. the true jedi knows it must going through the solid discipline to clearly attain the basic before the personal style.

((The voice of Ip Man--But I am your father....))


joy chaudhuri

[hunt1]

and share with us how a Sinking which you emphasis can do all of the above.

I clearly explained that the sinking I was talking about had nothing to do with rooting to the ground or using the ground etc etc. You though instead of saying you didn't understand decided to ignore what I said and just went on spouting what you think with no regard to what I said or making an effort to understand. Clearly your ego and insecurities make it to hard to discuss with you.

Force vectors and everything else are handled by circles horizontal and vertical use at the same time are the basics then you go from there Sinking has to do with where on the circle you are . Circles give you everything from how to breath to how to submit a person on the ground how to take someone down or to manipulate incoming force.










I have showed that the so called "sinking" is in adequate to model or handle a real life dynamics,

You have shown nothing. You play a childs game with your posts'" I know a secret but I won't tell."



why dont you present to us here how can your "sinking" handle and cover the real life dynamic which required more then one single force vector. and what do you mean by

Done.




let's start from basic simple physics and biomechanics. how is the sinking suppose to cover all the other force vectors components?

Answered above!

I am very interested to know what is the exactly the same thing?

Again you either do not understand the written word or choose to only read and understand what you wish too.

Made it very clear words don't mean a thing . I call walking walking you call it chicken. What ever you call it the action is the same.

[Hendrik]

and share with us how a Sinking which you emphasis can do all of the above. --- H



I clearly explained that the sinking I was talking about had nothing to do with rooting to the ground or using the ground etc etc.

You though instead of saying you didn't understand decided to ignore what I said and just went on spouting what you think with no regard to what I said or making an effort to understand.

Clearly your ego and insecurities make it to hard to discuss with you.



It is just a simple question.

You dont have to answer it if you dont want to .

If you have explain the sinking then it is as simple as copy it and paste it here for review.
I might miss it I might not understand you.


However, there is no needed for any personal attack.

Did I attack you or explain openly even when you brought up things which is in appropriate and not applicable to the topic.









Force vectors and everything else are handled by circles horizontal and vertical use

at the same time are the basics then you go from there Sinking has to do with where on the circle you are .

Circles give you everything from how to breath to how to submit a person on the ground how to take someone down or to manipulate incoming force.



Thanks for your description to share what you think.

however, that is not what I am communicating on the six directional force vectors concept.

A balance six directional force vectors doesnt required circles.
In fact, a balance six directional force vectors are balance at every instant and every point.






I have showed that the so called "sinking" is in adequate to model or handle a real life dynamics, ----- H


You have shown nothing. You play a childs game with your posts'" I know a secret but I won't tell."



Probably you dont read my post.

Here are the cut and paste from my previous post
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1016549&postcount=22



Aircraft Dynamics, Abbreviated, Part 2, Calculating Forces and Torques of the following site
http://www.berkeleyscience.com/airplane.htm

one can see, "sink" itself is not edequate to describe or model a reality in the 3D space. even when one stand statically, not to mention when one got to move and everything move dynamically. "sinking" is simply in adequate because there are others force vectors needs to be balance.

analogy to the simplified air plane picture above, one needs to deal with the drag, trust, and lift be it when one is standing. So, the six directional force vectors and all the posts and the youtube I post up there is to address the basic of those stuffs. nothing so mysterious or difficult.

One cannot and must not throw out the other components and only talk about sinking. That is because sinking or downward direction force vector is just a piece of the story, there are 5 others pieces needs to be handle and balance.


It would be appreciate that you do not continuous to pull personal attack or in-appropriate arguements which is non applicable to the technical discussion.





why dont you present to us here how can your "sinking" handle and cover the real life dynamic which required more then one single force vector. and what do you mean by ---- H



Done.


OK.



et's start from basic simple physics and biomechanics. how is the sinking suppose to cover all the other force vectors components? --- H


Answered above!


Thanks.

Eventhough what you think is not what I am looking for. Still that help me to know your view.






I am very interested to know what is the exactly the same thing? --- H



Again you either do not understand the written word or choose to only read and understand what you wish too.


or perhaps you dont understand what I am asking?
or perhaps you dont understand what I am communicating?







Made it very clear words don't mean a thing . I call walking walking you call it chicken. What ever you call it the action is the same.


I have cite
http://www.berkeleyscience.com/airplane.htm
as reference.

and also force vectors are common physics and math languages.

and if you dont like that. That is ok with me.




I really dont see any further discussion is needed.

And I let it go here.

Thanks for the discussion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is your view and definition.


We can build useful robots today. So dont give me those lips service without the most basic quantitative elements for analysis. such as the most basic elements force vectors components.


my expectation is one's description needs to be in the level of the following papers to be anything useful.

http://www.google.com/search?q=3+d+force+vectors+trajectory+mechanics+ro botics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.yahoo:en-US:official&client=firefox

I am not interested in anything supernature.
anyone want to explained motion with physics and mechanics...bio-mechanics?
provide the basic elements, that is the basic things learn in the physics and mechanics classes right?

I see you didn't give me an example of an human movement that can't be explained via bio-mechanics.
By the way, it was not MY definition.
bi·o·me·chan·ics (bī'ō-mĭ-kān'ĭks)
n.

1.

(used with a sing. verb) The study of the mechanics of a living body, especially of the forces exerted by muscles and gravity on the skeletal structure.
2.

(used with a pl. verb) The mechanics of a part or function of a living body, such as of the heart or of locomotion.

biomechanics (bī'ō-mĭ-kān'ĭks) Pronunciation Key
The scientific study of the role of mechanics in biological systems. The study of biomechanics includes the analysis of motion in animals, the fluid dynamics of blood, and the role of mechanical processes in the development of disease.

[Vajramusti]

Paul- bio mechanics is fine- but there are other things- not supernatural that can be IMO involved in human physical interactions. many human skills have been developed or used via experience and practice without opening a bio mechanics text. First rate boxers for instance can sense the beginning intent or moment of a motion of an adversary and react accordingly before the motion is really underway.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

You totally missed my points.

My point is simply if you want to talk about physics and mechanics and biomechanics.
Start with the basic. Which is the forces vectors components and trajectory.

and from there, see how far you could model and simulate it. First order? second order? third order? Using PID system, Using soft computing......etc.

the contents of Physics, mechanics, and bio mechanics are definitely NOT just cite some dictionary definition and start arguing.



I brought up the six directional force vectors, their balancing, trajectory, and equilibrium in statics and dynamic state. That is the basic of physics and mechnics.

so,
Stop arguing nonsense such as


you didn't give me an example of an human movement that can't be explained via bio-mechanics. Those are just mantra similar to " Qi does it all." even simple movement cant be explained via mechanics and physics if the formulated model/equation has less order then the dynamics.

So, please do not generalized things which you dont know.



Today's technology is about modeling, simulation and model evaluation on the forcast or prediction to see how close one's model in term of force vectors...etc can be compare to reality. and if first order model cant do it, second order will be needed, if linear super position model cannot do it, then non lineage model is needed.



do you know the state space variable to formulate the dynamic system? if you dont even have the basic force vectors components, there is no way to create a model, to compute or simulate or emulate the subject. and also, depend on the level of the model, not neccesary one's model could comprehensively explain the details of human motion.




The bottom line is, if you want to bring up physics, mechanics, and bio mechanics.

Starts with the state space of the force vectors components trajectory if you want to talk physics and mechanics....etc

Otherwise, it is just talk and go no where arguement like a mantra which do nothing but thinking you know it all.




So, why do I use the six directional force vectors ?

because I have done analized and modeling for the power/structure generation dynamics with the basic of physic and mechanics to formulate precise repeatable process.

and that is not lips service and dictionary citing but know exactly where and how each key force vectors' interaction in the state space.





Finally, if you want to talk physics, mechanics, follow the basic of the field. otherwise it is just some empty speculation which telling nothing on WHAT, HOW, WHEN and the specific.


So why am I bring these up here? because one could use the Six directional force vectors trajectory tools to precisely describe the structure and power generation process and also analyzed for different signature of the structure...etc.


IE:
Sinking is not equal to Peng ( as in peng jing of taichi) which balance all the six directional force vectors.
Horse stance is not the same with Wu JI stance.

Hip induces power generation is not the same with the Yi Chuan triangle power or huan yuan lik.....etc.


one can simply go to the lab, place all the motion sensors in the body parts, doing the above sinking to peng....ect. ask the software to reconstruct the force vectors dynamic trajectory and see it clearly what is what in details. That I call it physics and mechanics. Until one has get that far please dont even argue the topic. because you dont even know what it is.




some might take this post as harsh or rude. harsh and rude are not my point. My point is stop using those "qi does it all" " Physics, mechanics....does it all" mantra. those has no different.

If you want to talk Qi does it, present the details. If you want to talk Physics, mechanics..... does it all, present the details which is the forces vectors trajectory...etc. Otherwise it is the same type of non sense.








I see you didn't give me an example of an human movement that can't be explained via bio-mechanics.
By the way, it was not MY definition.
bi·o·me·chan·ics (bī'ō-mĭ-kān'ĭks)
n.

1.

(used with a sing. verb) The study of the mechanics of a living body, especially of the forces exerted by muscles and gravity on the skeletal structure...............

[Hendrik]

For those who still dont understand why I am using the six directional force vectors...dynamic trajectories.....etc.



Check out the

Human Motion Reconstruction by Direct Control of Marker Trajectories

http://www.google.com/search?q=3+d+force+vectors+trajectory+mechanics+ro botics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.yahoo:en-US:official&client=firefox



....We validated our new algorithm through a set of tai chi movement data. The
results illustrate smooth tracking of the marker trajectories in marker space. Smooth
joint angles trajectories were obtained as a natural output of the marker tracking
methodology. A bound on the joint space error was obtained and the results of this
analysis indicated stable error bounds over the trajectory....



Those type of stuffs are what I am into these days.
why do I get into these? because I want all type of Jing could be clearly define and synthesis. So there is no Your interpretation or Mine interpretation. I would like to see Trajectory signature matching if one has develop the same type of Jing.

So, please dont give me that Sinking is same with "levitate" or you are ...etc.
one needs to based the issue with dynaimc trajectory signature and that is independent of who did what or who say what.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Paul- bio mechanics is fine- but there are other things- not supernatural that can be IMO involved in human physical interactions. many human skills have been developed or used via experience and practice without opening a bio mechanics text. First rate boxers for instance can sense the beginning intent or moment of a motion of an adversary and react accordingly before the motion is really underway.

joy chaudhuri

Joy, I agree, but the point is what Hendrick said here:

there is no different to use bio mechanics and physics as a mantra then using religion mantra.
Regardless of what he edited after I quoted, he associated science and physics with "religious mantra", giving the impression that they are based on something other than proven scientific facts and theories.

Everything that the human body does, in terms of physical performance, can be explained by bio-mechanics and the laws of human physics, as such it is NOT a "mantra" or anything of the sort.

[Hendrik]

Joy, I agree, but the point is what Hendrick said here:

Regardless of what he edited after I quoted, he associated science and physics with "religious mantra", giving the impression that they are based on something other than proven scientific facts and theories.

Everything that the human body does, in terms of physical performance, can be explained by bio-mechanics and the laws of human physics, as such it is NOT a "mantra" or anything of the sort.


Either you dont know english or you puposely twisting words to win arguement.


Look at the paper I cite in my previous post , on


Human Motion Reconstruction by Direct Control of Marker Trajectories from Standford Univ

is Scientific, physics, and mechanics.


Until what you said have that same level of depth and details as the paper above.

It is a "mantra".

See, people get their MS and PHD in this field with details hard work. Not superficial mantra reciting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Either you dont know english or you puposely twisting words to win arguement.


Look at the paper I cite in my previous post , That is Scientific, physics, and mechanics.
Until what you said have that level of depth and details. It is a "mantra".

See, people get their MS and PHD in this field with details hard work. Not superficial mantra reciting.

This is what you said, after you edited it from the original that I quoted:

For those who keep bring up bio mechanic and physics as their mantra. Well, unless one could describe all the force vectors components and the trajectory.
there is no different to use bio mechanics and physics as a mantra then using other mantra alibi.
Those are just for arguement to boost ego.

To be fair with you I will ask you this:
What do YOU mean here?

[Hendrik]

Quote:
For those who keep bring up bio mechanic and physics as their mantra.

Well, unless one could describe all the force vectors components and the trajectory.

there is no different to use bio mechanics and physics as a mantra then using other mantra alibi.
Those are just for arguement to boost ego.


What do YOU mean here? ----- S


I mean if anyone want to present with / by the name of Physics, Mechanics,.....
one needs to do it in a proper basic elements/formats such as the Standford University article or other professional article did.
and Thus, describing all the force vectors components and trajectory. is a MUST.

If one doesnt and cant provide the details as needed in professional physics and mechanics field, then it is using the name of Physics and mechanics as a MANTRA.

There is no different between that type of arguement to " Qi does it all." but provide no details arguement.

same type of VOODO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What do YOU mean here? ----- S


I mean if anyone want to present with / by the name of Physics, Mechanics,.....
one needs to do it in a proper basic elements/formats such as the Standford University article or other professional article did.
and Thus, describing all the force vectors components and trajectory. is a MUST.

If one doesnt and cant provide the details as needed in professional physics and mechanics field, then it is using the name of Physics and mechanics as a MANTRA.

There is no different between that type of arguement to " Qi does it all." but provide no details arguement.

same type of VOODO.

While I don't agree you need to go into THAT MUCH detail, I do, finally, see your point.
Dude, no offense, but you need to take a class on how to "speak" to people to get your point across.
Seriously, you suck at this.
You'd probably take 3 pages to explain why the elbow has to be inline with the wrist in a left hook !

[Hendrik]

While I don't agree you need to go into THAT MUCH detail, I do, finally, see your point.
Dude, no offense, but you need to take a class on how to "speak" to people to get your point across.
Seriously, you suck at this.
You'd probably take 3 pages to explain why the elbow has to be inline with the wrist in a left hook !


Ok. Thanks and appreciate!

[Hendrik]

new post

http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1271

[Vajramusti]

new post

http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1271
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Hendrik- that is a good capsule in a poetic form of your Yik Kam art.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

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Hendrik- that is a good capsule in a poetic form of your Yik Kam art.

joy chaudhuri



Joy,

Thanks!

[hunt1]

Don't know if I should laugh or cry or a bit of both. A clear explanation that is understandable. All those wasted posts and wasted time. It's wonderful that you put this up . Now people can talk to each other instead of past each other. Thank you.

[Hendrik]

another new post

http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=13374#13374

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=FongSung;1018757]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post

左脚跘出有善惡,
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and countering effect.

QUOTE]

Why does it specify the "left leg" but not the right?
Or why not just state "Leg trips out..."?


IMHO,


Two important reasons which lots of people missed:
one for the Qi flow cultivation, one for force vectors.


1, In Chinese Qi and blood balance tradition of internal art;
such as Emei 12 Zhuang or any good internal art style,
Left side needs to be activated before the right side so that the qi and blood flow are balance instead of there is a delay of flow created between them.

This is important because long term imbalance such as the above cause problem in health.

Serious stuffs for Qi cultivation and body strengthening.

Thus, the sequence of the training is purposely address here. left then right.


2, If you remember the six directional force vectors in my previous post, the two left and right leg verses, are where the teaching of left and right force vectors pair were introduced.

So,
The first verse introduces the Up-down force pair, The verse of Both hand/arm raise forward introduce the forward-backward force pair, and the left/right leg verse introduce the left-right force pair.
Thus, in the very beginning of the 4 section SLT, the six direction force vectors or six force were introduced.



I brought all of these up here so that the next generation knows there are reasons and Qi cultivation rules the SLT keep reminding within the kuen kuit instruction.

However, if one doesnt have the pre-requisite knowledge or the training one will not understand and also easily missed those. if those are missed then one's might never experience what one support to experience while practicing the set.

Thus, for my decades of dealing with the four sections SLT, I like to stick hard to the book. It is best to not change anything. That way, the keys are not distorted.

after one has master the art then one can create one's own but that is a different issue.

[Hendrik]

http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=13376#13376


A song by my high school buddy,for the past, present, and future Cho Gar WCners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIKrRUGkSWs&feature=related

[FongSung]

右跟曲勁紧口藏
Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.

Hendrik you mentioned b4 that the above is a clue to generating "Fa Jing".
I have done some translation and think that the above mentions "bend force" not "spiral force"?

Right (yau) heel (gan) bent (kuk) power (ging) tight/firm (gan) reverse (faan) hide/conceal (chong)

Is it that my attempt at translation is incorrect?

Thinking back on the 6 vectors - could bend mean springy? that is if bend is actually the correct translation.

[Hendrik]

Good question.

You are correct if you translate the word directly.


The following are my view.

I purposely not using bending here to avoid misleading "bend" as bending and causing some to hold the heel joints tightly to bend which causing stagnation and screw up the structure.

I can use twist but then that can get into another kind of misleading similar to bend too.




For me,
spiral is a closer word to describe the type of jing, to avoid one from getting creative imagination or interpretation which end up misleading oneself. This is where the sifu plays an important part to coach one.




Similarly,

气聚丹田督脉口
Qi activity in Dan Dien and the Du Medirian while the spine is loosely sink.


If one translate it wordsby word as merge/collect the Qi in Dan Dien,
That can cause misleading big time.

In practice, Qi must not be merge/collect in Dan Dien, Qi needs to keep flowing.



It is always an issue with translation. From the classical chinese to modern chinese or chinese to english. So, I describe what I know instead of translating.



since I have replied your questions in details for a few times,
Are you learning Cho family art ? What is your real name? Where do you train and who is your sifu?



It would be great if those of you who is from Cho lineage share your view on your experience and join the discussion.







右跟曲勁紧口藏
Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.

Hendrik you mentioned b4 that the above is a clue to generating "Fa Jing".
I have done some translation and think that the above mentions "bend force" not "spiral force"?

Right (yau) heel (gan) bent (kuk) power (ging) tight/firm (gan) reverse (faan) hide/conceal (chong)

Is it that my attempt at translation is incorrect?

Thinking back on the 6 vectors - could bend mean springy in all directions? that is if bend is actually the correct translation.

[Hendrik]

speaking of bend or spiral....etc.

In my starting to learn WCK era, under my late sifu, there is a beginner set just for practicing the stance, step, bend, twist, and spiral. The basic concept of above Kuen Kuit actually were introduce early at the beginner level. Also, in other lineage there is a set called walking ten steps YJKYM, if my memory serve.


This set is different then the CLF Ng Lun Ma since the beginner set are target toward introductory of WCK instead of CLF based art which is related to Ng Lun Ma.


and later due to the popularity of the HK lineages WCK's three sets, these set get less and less emphasis and fade away with time.

[kung fu fighter]

In my starting to learn WCK era, under my late sifu, there is a beginner set just for practicing the stance, step, bend, twist, and spiral. The basic concept of above Kuen Kuit actually were introduce early at the beginner level. Also, in other lineage there is a set called walking ten steps YJKYM, if my memory serve.

Hendrik,

can you give us a little more details about this form, which footwork and stepping patterns are practiced in this form?

[Hendrik]

I rather not start anyone's imagination here. since footwork and stepping patterns only tell a small part of the story.

baisi to sifu who knows the art and learn from him/her fully if anyone is seriously interested.


My late sifu once told me to respect art. In his words, " only those who respect art will master the art."

For me,
Respect art means learn the art from proper channel and cultivate it everyday, as in Chinese tradition said " drink the water and always remember the source." Website and internet discussion forum is great for exchanging information, however an attitude of respecting the art and learn from proper channel via proper transmission is even more important.






Hendrik,

can you give us a little more details about this form, which footwork and stepping patterns are practiced in this form?

[kung fu fighter]

I rather not start anyone's imagination here. since footwork and stepping patterns only tell a small part of the story.

baisi to sifu who knows the art and learn from him/her fully if anyone is seriously interested.


My late sifu once told me to respect art. In his words, " only those who respect art will master the art."

For me,
Respect art means learn the art from proper channel and cultivate it everyday, as in Chinese tradition said " drink the water and always remember the source." Website and internet discussion forum is great for exchanging information, however an attitude of respecting the art and learn from proper channel via proper transmission is even more important.

Classic Hendrik:) A very simple question about footwork patterns in his linage and I get the old go Bai si answer.