Wing Tsun Re-Evolution?

[Simon Morris]

Not usually a big WT fan, but this guy (Victor Guitterez) is growing on me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMW3o69t9LQ
I do believe he has now left the EWTO and is re-calibrating his training to be more resistance based.
The DVD series WT Re-Evolution ( at Amazon) is refreshing and very robust.

Any views, anyone trained with him personally?
Simon

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not one second of actual fighting...that doesn't look good.

[Knifefighter]

Just a new take on the same old unrealistic cr@p.

[tigershorty]

that guy sure likes his elbows. can't really watch videos where 2 partners are in agreement with the end result before they even attack.


at best, that scenario can be used to teach, but not show real skill.

[taojkd]

Bad muay thai clinch work? Well, to be fair, he IS show how to do it out of chi sao.





*just kidding*

[punchdrunk]

most demos don't show much resistance, but that clip doesn't show any at all. How is his training more resistance based? Any other clips or articles about that? If he does that would be interesting.

[Simon Morris]

Hello Guys.

I do believe the 'new' resistance approach is geared towards non-WT strikes and centred on a more aggressive boxing/MMA strike pattern. Victor appears to be saying in the DVD's that WT needs to get away from being an antidote to itself, and focus more on a check + strike response to deal with heavy hitters?

I appreciate that some of you are of the opinion that here is more WT self indulgent demos, personally I like the flow and violence seen in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwbsUSkmkI

Simon

[YungChun]

This was new like 20 years ago...

I don't know if Victor G. still trains folks the same way but his ChiSao used to be turn crazy, constantly turning.. While his ChiSao is a little nutty I think there are some parts of their WT that may be useful... But it's the same old stuff....

Without going into lots of details.. My experience is that Chun needs to simplify--improve the understanding and use of the core tools, cut the techniques down to a handful and sharpen what's left...

Train realistically with good mechanics and focus on Chun's true strong points in training and then take it into the ring.. All the BS folks put out there ends up circumventing the basic core of the art and actually refining it in combat.

I would recommend Alan's stuff over this any day and absorb what is useful..

[Simon Morris]

Hi Yung Chun.

Some very true points there.
What clicks my switch about Victor is his constant offensive emphasis.
When you talk about simplicity, please highlight 3 major points that you would implement, specific to combat.

Simon

[YungChun]

Hi Yung Chun.

Some very true points there.
What clicks my switch about Victor is his constant offensive emphasis.
When you talk about simplicity, please highlight 3 major points that you would implement, specific to combat.

Simon

I'm all for offense..

I think I did mention 3 points..

Good mechanics..good horse.

Technique reduction..

Realistic training/application..


An emphasis on power, release of power...how to do that...

A short list of hand techniques...for use in entry and inside..

More incorporation of the legs for constant harassment and attack..

Realistic and focused training on core weapons and tactics..

(the basic punches should be honed to a fine edge (they rarely are)--the kicks as well--just like MT works those kicks/strikes over and over and over, etc)

I don't care what anyone says: Good Chun strikes should be scary powerful.

And I think many of the classical drills are vital when done right.

It's simply taking the core of the art, the higher % elements and working them over and over and under pressure--yes, fight good fighters....

I think Alan's stuff covers a lot of good elements (just addressing the chun aspects).. I don't agree with maybe 5-10% of where he goes but, with most (not all) other folk's video stuff is just useless to anyone above beginner level..

[Simon Morris]

Thank you Yung Chun, respect your approach and methodology.

My training has always focused on:
* Attitude.
* Conditioning.
* Skills.
* Tactics.

In parallel with Muay Thai, incorporate padwork and sparring into every session.
Keep to the Primary Strategy: Disrupt and Destroy the opponent at all opportunities.

Cheers
Simon.

p.s. I'm unsure of who Alan is, please help?

[YungChun]

Thank you Yung Chun, respect your approach and methodology.

My training has always focused on:
* Attitude.
* Conditioning.
* Skills.
* Tactics.

In parallel with Muay Thai, incorporate padwork and sparring into every session.
Keep to the Primary Strategy: Disrupt and Destroy the opponent at all opportunities.

Cheers
Simon.

p.s. I'm unsure of who Alan is, please help?

Alan Orr has some videos...
http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/products/videoproductlist.html

[Knifefighter]

Hello Guys.

I do believe the 'new' resistance approach is geared towards non-WT strikes and centred on a more aggressive boxing/MMA strike pattern. Victor appears to be saying in the DVD's that WT needs to get away from being an antidote to itself, and focus more on a check + strike response to deal with heavy hitters?

I appreciate that some of you are of the opinion that here is more WT self indulgent demos, personally I like the flow and violence seen in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwbsUSkmkI

Simon

LOL @ those arm strikes dealing with heavy hitters. Heavy hitters will walk right through the junk shown in that clip.

Mostly theoretical non-fighting fantasy shown there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello Guys.

I do believe the 'new' resistance approach is geared towards non-WT strikes and centred on a more aggressive boxing/MMA strike pattern. Victor appears to be saying in the DVD's that WT needs to get away from being an antidote to itself, and focus more on a check + strike response to deal with heavy hitters?

I appreciate that some of you are of the opinion that here is more WT self indulgent demos, personally I like the flow and violence seen in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwbsUSkmkI

Simon

That sucked, sorry.
Look, demos are for demoing what a system is, its a show and tell scenario.
The thing is, doing that way give the impression of "real fighting" and that is NOT the case.
The attacker does some half-assed attack that most of the time, the defender knows, and then the defender counters with force and intent, and the contrast we see from the half-assed attack and the purposeful counters gives us the illusion of skill and power and effectivness.
This is wrong.

The only way to show how a system works under pressure is to show it in a full contact environment, period.

[Simon Morris]

Hello Mr Ronin and Knifefighter.
I fully understand your points on demos and their flimsy 'non real' content.
The area I like from the clip is some nice slashing with elbows and fists.

Please with both of your knowledge and full contact experience could you point me at some:
'The only way to show how a system works under pressure is to show it in a full contact environment, period'.

*and some*

'LOL @ those arm strikes dealing with heavy hitters. Heavy hitters will walk right through the junk shown in that clip'.

Thank you.
Simon

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello Mr Ronin and Knifefighter.
I fully understand your points on demos and their flimsy 'non real' content.
The area I like from the clip is some nice slashing with elbows and fists.

Please with both of your knowledge and full contact experience could you point me at some:
'The only way to show how a system works under pressure is to show it in a full contact environment, period'.

*and some*

'LOL @ those arm strikes dealing with heavy hitters. Heavy hitters will walk right through the junk shown in that clip'.

Thank you.
Simon

Not sure what you are asking, you wanna see videos of full contact Wing Chun?

[Simon Morris]

Yes please, can you both direct me to some tangible examples of your training ethos.
I am excited at the prospect of seeing resisting opponents giving it back:D

Cheers
Simon

[Knifefighter]

Yes please, can you both direct me to some tangible examples of your training ethos.
I am excited at the prospect of seeing resisting opponents giving it back:D

Cheers
Simon

Watch just about any MMA fight to see examples of what we are talking about. These are more realistic representations of what will happen in actual full-contact fighting. Since MMA matches are full contact fights requiring significant power development, you will rarely see arm punches without body rotation as was demonstrated by those clips. Additionally, charging in as was demonstrated in those unrealistic clips, will generally end up with a takedown or the clinch.

[m1k3]

I am excited at the prospect of seeing resisting opponents giving it back:D

Cheers
Simon

Its easy, go to any MMA, MT or Boxing gym and you will see just that. WC should train the same way.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is Alan Orr's (CSL WCK) student Aaron winning in MMA match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCbRTofOHw

Sifu Redman's (TWC)student:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzlDFKNoJ2M

Don't know much about this one but it is full contact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2JuvK7F2BQ

and some more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd4dTS2si7A

[Knifefighter]

Examples of a power hitter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z97yeh79vhk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2gstPe3Im4

[sanjuro_ronin]

Examples of a power hitter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z97yeh79vhk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2gstPe3Im4

I'd forgotten how much I like Jens style.
I didn't know that he branched out into competing Boxing and MT, very nice.

[YungChun]

Yes please, can you both direct me to some tangible examples of your training ethos.
I am excited at the prospect of seeing resisting opponents giving it back:D

Cheers
Simon

There is a sticky thread on this forum dedicated to full contact Chun...

Folks: Post 'em if you have 'em.

[Mulong]

He is using 力/li (strength), which implies upper body strength to get his technique out, which is extremely rigid. Whereas, he should be more relax and using 勁/jin (energy), which implies full body uses, i.e., lumbar, and legs. Sadly, his students are assisting him with the techniques, and if you look closely, he has a looping quality to his techniques, which is a give away of assistance from his students, i.e., flow.

[WC4life]

I agree with the "concept" of being more check n strike type fighter in wing chun but having said that, he looks VERY sloppy, stiff and with bad energy. Against a good WC practitioner he won't be too effective throwing his elbow and hands like that all sloppy.


Hello Guys.

I do believe the 'new' resistance approach is geared towards non-WT strikes and centred on a more aggressive boxing/MMA strike pattern. Victor appears to be saying in the DVD's that WT needs to get away from being an antidote to itself, and focus more on a check + strike response to deal with heavy hitters?

I appreciate that some of you are of the opinion that here is more WT self indulgent demos, personally I like the flow and violence seen in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwbsUSkmkI

Simon

[bennyvt]

he hasn't changed all those elbows. Man he loves them. For a video i think you have to have good people attacking ie wrestler for shooting, boxer for punches etc. You look pretty dumb having some guy that couldn't hurt my mum throwing crap. He may be good but i watched the anti grappling video and wasn't impressed.

[Mulong]

Indeed, as bennyvt brings up; his front line attack will not work with a grappler, because he will simply take the hit and engulf him.

I have noticed lately that to many stylist have stiff shoulder, i.e., very tight asking, guarding hand; not realizing that may have once worked with boxers, but will never work with MMA guy. The upper body needs to be loose to adjust to the incoming force.

[SAAMAG]

He is using 力/li (strength), which implies upper body strength to get his technique out, which is extremely rigid. Whereas, he should be more relax and using 勁/jin (energy), which implies full body uses, i.e., lumbar, and legs. Sadly, his students are assisting him with the techniques, and if you look closely, he has a looping quality to his techniques, which is a give away of assistance from his students, i.e., flow.

The way I understand it is that LI is the concept of issuing power derived from muscles (not upper body muscles). JING is issuance of internal energy. When you are hitting with the full support of the skeletal muscles, you're still using LI. The mind's intent and internal training in coordination with the proper skeletal support and alignment are what drive JIN as I've been taught.

Please don't misunderstand though--I absolutely agree on full body coordination with the issuance of power and that it will indeed be there with fa-jing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

JING is issuance of internal energy
Now you just need to define and prove internal energy, LOL !
You can't eliminate the use of muscles in human movement, that is what they are there for.

[SAAMAG]

Now you just need to define and prove internal energy, LOL !
You can't eliminate the use of muscles in human movement, that is what they are there for.

That's what the last line was for foo!

[Mulong]

The notion of 勁/jin (ging) can perceive as a whipping energy, which starts from feet up to the release of energy be it the hands, shoulder, elbow, etc. The body needs to be relaxed to create 發勁/fajin (faat ging).

Fajin is an interesting notion, because it is external in manifestation, but its foundation comes from internal training, i.e., 内功/neigong (noih gung), to enhance ones’ muscles, ligaments, and sinews. Without that prior training true fajin will not be manifested, but just poor shaking motion, which could cause some personal injury if done to hard.

[SAAMAG]

Very nice elaboration! As sanjuro stated li is always present, it is the catalyst for all physical motion, so that we all seem to agree on. The whipping motion is probably the simplest way of describing it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fajin is an interesting notion, because it is external in manifestation, but its foundation comes from internal training, i.e., 内功/neigong (noih gung), to enhance ones’ muscles, ligaments, and sinews. Without that prior training true fajin will not be manifested, but just poor shaking motion, which could cause some personal injury if done to hard.

Gonna nit-pick sorry.
Muscles and ligaments are "enhanced" by strengthening them ( they certainly are not enhance by weakening them) and the only way to do that is with resistence exercise ( in its many forms).
The main stress from fajing training is that too many do it in the "air", and that isn't very good because not only does it not give the feel that it should, but it forces the body to "put on the breaks" on the strike rather than the target impact and floow0through doing it for us ( recoil).
That eccentric "snap" can cause some problems in our muscles, ligaments and tendons.

[Mulong]

I'm glad to hear that; the practice of hard gong, is rare within yongchunquan/wihng cheun kyuhn, practitioners; however, it is so crucial in developing energy at close range.

[Ultimatewingchun]

FROM MULONG:

“Indeed, as bennyvt brings up; his (Guitterez’s) front line attack will not work with a grappler, because he will simply take the hit and engulf him.

I have noticed lately that to many stylists have stiff shoulders, ie.- very tight asking, guarding hand; not realizing that may have once worked with boxers, but will never work with an MMA guy. The upper body needs to be loose to adjust to the incoming force.”
……………………………………….

“The notion of 勁/jin (ging) can perceive as a whipping energy, which starts from feet up to the release of energy be it the hands, shoulder, elbow, etc. The body needs to be relaxed to create 發勁/fajin (faat ging).

Fajin is an interesting notion, because it is external in manifestation, but its foundation comes from internal training, i.e., 内功/neigong (noih gung), to enhance ones’ muscles, ligaments, and sinews. Without that prior training true fajin will not be manifested, but just poor shaking motion, which could cause some personal injury if done to hard.”
…………………………………………….

TO WHICH, SANJURO RESPONDED WITH:

“Gonna nit-pick sorry.
Muscles and ligaments are "enhanced" by strengthening them (they certainly are not enhanced by weakening them) and the only way to do that is with resistance exercise (in its many forms).
The main stress from fajing training is that too many do it in the ‘air’, and that isn't very good because not only does it not give the feel that it should, but it forces the body to ‘put on the breaks’ on the strike rather than the target impact and floow0through doing it for us (recoil).
That eccentric ‘snap’ can cause some problems in our muscles, ligaments and tendons.”
…………………………………………….

FOLLOWED BY THIS FROM MULONG:

“I'm glad to hear that; the practice of hard gong, is rare within yongchunquan/wihng cheun kyuhn, practitioners; however, it is so crucial in developing energy at close range.”


………………………

***EXCELLENT exchange of ideas here.

And I would add this, Paul/sanjuro…nobody is saying we should “weaken” muscles and ligaments…but what I believe Mulong is saying…is that in addition to strong muscles and ligaments…one can increase concentrated power by using a relaxed “whipping” action.

And a very good analysis of why too much tension and too much frontal assault will get you taken down by a wrestler/grappler.

[Mulong]

Thanks Ultimatewingchun; we most take into account that MMA/grapplers needs its opponent to be substantial, i.e., solid, rigid, etc., which allows him to grasp/engulf, but if we are insubstantial, i.e., relax, loose, etc. It makes it harder; for example, look at a BJJ stylist, usually very relax, were as MMA fighter with a wrestling background is usually rigid.

We most take into account yongchunquan/wihng cheun kyuhn heritage is Chinese; therefore, the classics always states relax body, especially shoulders.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're welcome, Mulong...but I must part company with you here about wrestlers. True, they are more likely to use forceful bodyweight pindowns than judo or jiu jitsu might (and the same applies in some instances of standing clinch work) - but sometimes this can provide a major advantage during the course of an encounter.

Remember: it's both yin AND yang that is required for maximum efficiency.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I would add this, Paul/sanjuro…nobody is saying we should “weaken” muscles and ligaments…but what I believe Mulong is saying…is that in addition to strong muscles and ligaments…one can increase concentrated power by using a relaxed “whipping” action.

Oh I know that he didn't say or mean that, the reason I mentioned that is to make it clear that we can only enhance muscles, ligaments and tendons one way and that is to strengthen it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Oh I know that he didn't say or mean that, the reason I mentioned that is to make it clear that we can only enhance muscles, ligaments and tendons one way and that is to strengthen it.

***BUT you can enhance the concentrated power and force delivered through the muscles, ligaments, and tendons with the relaxed whipping action.

[Mulong]

I know; that is why we go back to the old adage, about strength, i.e., li, it is hard to defeat. Therefore, there is a need a balance between hard and soft, which is the journal that all Chinese martial artists most take one day, especially, when you start to get older; li is no longer the right away, because it starts to diminish, hence, the use of jin comes in handy. (Being in my later 40's I have to come with term with that; at least in my case I have neijia background, which helps.)

[sanjuro_ronin]

***BUT you can enhance the concentrated power and force delivered through the muscles, ligaments, and tendons with the relaxed whipping action.

IF those muscles and tendons are STRONG enough.
:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know; that is why we go back to the old adage, about strength, i.e., li, it is hard to defeat. Therefore, there is a need a balance between hard and soft, which is the journal that all Chinese martial artists most take one day, especially, when you start to get older; li is no longer the right away, because it starts to diminish, hence, the use of jin comes in handy. (Being in my later 40's I have to come with term with that; at least in my case I have neijia background, which helps.)

I agree.
My old Sifu used to say that the muscles are the Yang and our structure ( proper aliginment) is the Yin.
When one is strong and the other weak, you get "half baked" results, when both are strong, then you get JING !

[Knifefighter]

Thanks Ultimatewingchun; we most take into account that MMA/grapplers needs its opponent to be substantial, i.e., solid, rigid, etc., which allows him to grasp/engulf, but if we are insubstantial, i.e., relax, loose, etc. It makes it harder; for example, look at a BJJ stylist, usually very relax, were as MMA fighter with a wrestling background is usually rigid. .

Complete and utter display of lack of knowledge of grappling.

[Knifefighter]

You're welcome, Mulong...but I must part company with you here about wrestlers. True, they are more likely to use forceful bodyweight pindowns than judo or jiu jitsu might (and the same applies in some instances of standing clinch work) - but sometimes this can provide a major advantage during the course of an encounter.

Remember: it's both yin AND yang that is required for maximum efficiency.

Judo and BJJ are no more and no less about force than is wrestling. They all use the same basic principles.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've noticed a difference in the way some catch wrestlers will use more of a bodyweight pin down in various positions than you normally would see in BJJ, for example...purposely trying to make the guy on the bottom carry as much of your weight as possible, in order to maintain tighter and greater control - and to help tire him out.

And of course look at the whole concept used in amateur free style wrestling about pin downs and the use of heavy rides.

Now take away the "shoulder pins" and put in submissions - and you have modern day catch as catch can wrestling. (In the beginning - catch used both subs and shoulder pins to win a match).

And in fact, if you were to ask a Dan Gable, for instance...he would tell you that catch wrestling is the grand daddy of amateur free style.

Not that using this kind of maximum pressure is what should always be done - but there are many instances wherein this mindset can really help to take control of the fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, in SOME ways Judo and wrestling have more in common than Judo and BJJ and that way is the goal to "pin" your opponent as opposed to submit.
BUT, that has changed quite bit in the last few years.

[Knifefighter]

I've noticed a difference in the way some catch wrestlers will use more of a bodyweight pin down in various positions than you normally would see in BJJ, for example...purposely trying to make the guy on the bottom carry as much of your weight as possible, in order to maintain tighter and greater control - and to help tire him out.

Some guys work for submissions, which means less bodyweight control, while other guys work for more control, with means a heavier ride.

BTW, you won't find a heavier control position than the BJJ knee ride.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some guys work for submissions, which means less bodyweight control, while other guys work for more control, with means a heavier ride.

BTW, you won't find a heavier control position than the BJJ knee ride.

Sure you can:
http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0712/size-matters-mma-grappling-wrestling-demotivational-poster-1196897741.jpg

[Knifefighter]

Sure you can:


Have that guy throw on a knee ride and the bottom guy will be quickly tapping.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Some guys work for submissions, which means less bodyweight control, while other guys work for more control, with means a heavier ride.

BTW, you won't find a heavier control position than the BJJ knee ride.


***Somehow, I knew you were going to say that. But you see there's a middle way - wherein you use a heavy ride to gain a tight control, and then some well placed and well timed elbows, palms, punches, and knee strikes can do wonders to set up a tired and pressured man on the bottom for submissions...

as the catch wrestlers at the turn of the 20th century often did...and which of course is perfectly fine within today's mma standards.

Not that he's a "catch" wrestler, per se - but he is a WRESTLER...and so, do you remember what Matt Hughes did to beat Royce Gracie? Do you remember the heavy riding pin down that set up the GnP finish?

Now go watch a Josh Barnett fight and you'll often see similar things that end with a submission victory.

[Knifefighter]

***Somehow, I knew you were going to say that. But you see there's a middle way - wherein you use a heavy ride to gain a tight control, and then some well placed and well timed elbows, palms, punches, and knee strikes can do wonders to set up a tired and pressured man on the bottom for submissions...

Umm... no kidding.

The point was, tight hold down is for control. Lesser hold down allows for submissions and strikes. The tighter the hold down, the less available strikes and submissions are. The looser the hold down, the more available the submissions and strikes and the more room for the opponent to escape.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I understand that...the tighter the hold down the less available strikes and submissions are.

But sometimes it's easier to transition from a hold down to strikes and set ups for submissions AFTER tiring somebody out by the pressure of making them carry your full body weight.

Furthermore, what can often happen is that they make a mistake and set themselves up for a sub (or strikes) precisely because they can't deal with the full body weight pressure on top of them....and they make a wrong move or a wrong turn.

Again, watch the ending of the Hughes-Gracie fight.

[Knifefighter]

I understand that...the tighter the hold down the less available strikes and submissions are.

But sometimes it's easier to transition from a hold down to strikes and set ups for submissions AFTER tiring somebody out by the pressure of making them carry your full body weight.

Furthermore, what can often happen is that they make a mistake and set themselves up for a sub (or strikes) precisely because they can't deal with the full body weight pressure on top of them....and they make a wrong move or a wrong turn.

Again, watch the ending of the Hughes-Gracie fight.


LOL... by the time you are a BJJ black belt, body pressure doesn't have much of an effect. If you get tired from tight body control, you don't understand the basics of BJJ and would never make it to black belt.

Royce made his mistakes for two reasons:
1- He only trained against his students. Lots of fighters said they would train with him beforehand, but he turned them down;
2- The strikes. The bodyweight was a non-issue. The strikes effed him up a lot. BTW, if you knew half as much grappling as you claim, you'd know the real reason Hughes was able to land all the blows on Royce that he was able to land. Here's a hint: it had nothing to do with him tiring Royce out with bodyweight control.

[SAAMAG]

LOL... by the time you are a BJJ black belt, body pressure doesn't have much of an effect. If you get tired from tight body control, you don't understand the basics of BJJ and would never make it to black belt.

Royce made his mistakes for two reasons:
1- He only trained against his students. Lots of fighters said they would train with him beforehand, but he turned them down;
2- The strikes. The bodyweight was a non-issue. The strikes effed him up a lot. BTW, if you knew half as much grappling as you claim, you'd know the real reason Hughes was able to land all the blows on Royce that he was able to land. Here's a hint: it had nothing to do with him tiring Royce out with bodyweight control.

Instead of implying that you know the REAL reason...why not just state what you believe it to be? I loved that fight, and long story short I think Gracie was outclassed. Matt Hughes was too strong, in too good of condition, trained harder, and during the fight had better positioning and control. Royce didn't even get a proper position let alone any chance to sub or present any sort of offense.

I knew Royce was going to lose just from watching the training highlights. Same goes for the second Gracie that faced Hughes...he didn't train hard enough and was outperformed.

[Knifefighter]

Instead of implying that you know the REAL reason...why not just state what you believe it to be? I loved that fight, and long story short I think Gracie was outclassed. Matt Hughes was too strong, in too good of condition, trained harder, and during the fight had better positioning and control. Royce didn't even get a proper position let alone any chance to sub or present any sort of offense.

I knew Royce was going to lose just from watching the training highlights. Same goes for the second Gracie that faced Hughes...he didn't train hard enough and was outperformed.

It's more fun to have Victor go back and watch the fight to see if he can figure it out. Anyone who really understood striking combined with grappling on the ground would already know the answer.

[Ultimatewingchun]

He loves to imply. Somehow he thinks that this tactic is intimidating...and of course, there's the classic Dale Frank "if you knew half as much grappling as you claim, you'd know the real reason - blah, blah, blah..."

You gotta love this guy.

As for the "black belts have no problem carrying heavy body weight rides" kind of talk...yeah, riiiiiiight. :rolleyes:

Anybody can get gassed and tired from carrying the opponent's full body weight and the onslaught that can follow. Anybody.

The real issue here is that Dale Frank still can't accept the efficiency of catch wrestling - and all that it brings to the table that wasn't in the BJJ manual he got from Royce.

Bawwwwaahhhhhhh......

[Ultimatewingchun]

...of the heavy rides and pindowns used in catch wrestling....and how that can be used to setup various submissions from all kinds of positions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvIbn30xsDc


.......................................

And now I invite all those who were engaged in actual wing chun discussion and debate to return to your regularly scheduled program. Sorry for the temporary hijacking. :cool:

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ the tape trained Victor Parletti, who has never stepped outside the confines of of his cloistered studio to go against real grapplers, pretending to know anything about grappling.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Don't cha' just love it when the ad hominems take the place of real rebuttal of points made?

No, it's boring.

What should we do instead? There's a good new action spy flick playing down at the mall...!!!

Nah, I'd rather continue with the wing chun discussions and debates.

Really ???

Yeah...:p

[Wayfaring]

Yes please, can you both direct me to some tangible examples of your training ethos.
I am excited at the prospect of seeing resisting opponents giving it back:D

Cheers
Simon

You want a great example of elbow usage?

Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABV2IjnuUUc

[Knifefighter]

...of the heavy rides and pindowns used in catch wrestling....and how that can be used to setup various submissions from all kinds of positions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvIbn30xsDc


And if you ever ventured out of your little WC cubicle, you'd know that was no different than pretty much anything your going to see at any submission grappling tourney on any weekend of the year.

[Wayfaring]

...of the heavy rides and pindowns used in catch wrestling....and how that can be used to setup various submissions from all kinds of positions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvIbn30xsDc

I'm actually a Barnett fan - he's among the top outside of BJJ - along with the Gokor crowd, Jeff Monson and some of the Sambo guys. I would actually love to get a chance to roll with him someday if the stars align.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm a big Barnett fan also. Actually saw him defeat Semmy Shilt in person at a UFC event held in New Jersey back around 2001. He was on the undercard. The main event was Tito Ortiz - although I don't remember who Tito fought that night.

And I'm still really interested in seeing Josh Barnett fight Fedor.

If Josh survived the standup and managed to get Fedor down - it could really be competitive.

Not that Fedor isn't an awesome sambo and GnP guy once it goes to the ground - but I think Josh might have a slight advantage on the ground.

The real problem for him would be the standup, though.

[Wayfaring]

Royce made his mistakes for two reasons:
1- He only trained against his students. Lots of fighters said they would train with him beforehand, but he turned them down;
2- The strikes. The bodyweight was a non-issue. The strikes effed him up a lot. BTW, if you knew half as much grappling as you claim, you'd know the real reason Hughes was able to land all the blows on Royce that he was able to land. Here's a hint: it had nothing to do with him tiring Royce out with bodyweight control.

Actually, interesting story - Royce commented on that directly at a recent seminar. From his perspective, he said he did not show up to that fight.

[Knifefighter]

Actually, interesting story - Royce commented on that directly at a recent seminar. From his perspective, he said he did not show up to that fight.

He had no counter for Hughes' main tactic from side control (which, btw, had little to do with crushing body weight).

[Wayfaring]

Some guys work for submissions, which means less bodyweight control, while other guys work for more control, with means a heavier ride.

BTW, you won't find a heavier control position than the BJJ knee ride.

Yes, agreed. There's a flow involved also, and taking what they give you. Some dudes train the bench press just for you. Knee ride is your friend there. Also there's less resistance up around the head in N/S.

I think what you're talking about working for submissions is good grapplers letting up pressure in certain directions to make an opening so people move right into a submission setup, as opposed to someone playing real loose from the top.

Overall I'm a big fan of knee pressure from the top, in the ride, in guard passing, in just making pressure and problems for the down opponent. It can open up submissions and strikes, and good knee pressure shuts down a lot of guard attacks.

[Wayfaring]

He had no counter for Hughes' main tactic from side control (which, btw, had little to do with crushing body weight).

Yes, from what I remember Hughes moved in to pinning the near arm with a shin and attacking, similar to what Roy Nelson did on TUF. Is that right? He almost submitted Royce too?

I thought it would be interesting to post his own perspective - there's always different perspectives on fights.

[Knifefighter]

Yes, from what I remember Hughes moved in to pinning the near arm with a shin and attacking, similar to what Roy Nelson did on TUF. Is that right? He almost submitted Royce too?

I thought it would be interesting to post his own perspective - there's always different perspectives on fights.

Bingo! The arm trap was huge in that fight... very hard to counter. Gotta bring it through the other side and move to north/south.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Bingo is right !!!!!!! :cool:

And it is precisely because Hughes worked such a top heavy cross chest side control ride (instead of thinking that he's "got" to go to mount from there)...

it's precisely because of that that Royce actually eventually gave him the opening to trap the arm.

Royce was tired, starting to gas, in pain...and quite frankly, was starting to panic.

Thanks again for proving my point, Dale.

I knew I could count on you. ;)

[Knifefighter]

it's precisely because of that that Royce actually eventually gave him the opening to trap the arm.

Thanks for once again proving that you know next to nothing about grappling technique. Royce didn't give him the opening to trap the arm. Hughes worked a specific technique with his legs to force the arm trap. You wouldn't know that because you would have to have more than a simple understanding of grappling to see what he was doing.

[Wayfaring]

And it is precisely because Hughes worked such a top heavy cross chest side control ride (instead of thinking that he's "got" to go to mount from there)...

You know one very interesting thing here is to take a look at Matt Hughes BJJ background. I know Pat Militech has had some different ground instructors through there, but Pat himself is a black belt under Oswaldo Alves. Now Oswaldo was one bad-@$$ mofo BJJ wise.

Check out some of these fundamental movements:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adOueUoWS4Q

Now that kind of stuff is going to build some good grappling. I think a lot of people under-estimate Hughes and Militech's BJJ. And Hughes adapted it pretty well to his wrestling / top game action.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Of course I know he worked a leg technique to get the trap.

And I also know exactly why the opportunity to work the leg technique was there:

the heavy ride and the punches took their toll on Royce.

Gee, who are we going to believe, Dale...You, or our lyin' eyes ???!!! :cool:

[bennyvt]

so are you saying that bjj has no defence for that or royce didn't know it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have that guy throw on a knee ride and the bottom guy will be quickly tapping.

You need to work on your sense of humor dude :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

It;s been a while since I saw that fight, but I recall that whenever Royce would try anything to liberate the arm, Matt nailed him, making any transition attempt something to be paid for, yes?

My fav part was Rorion saying how Matt's victory was a victory for GJJ, LOL !
I love that guy !

[Knifefighter]

Of course I know he worked a leg technique to get the trap.

And I also know exactly why the opportunity to work the leg technique was there:

the heavy ride and the punches took their toll on Royce.

Gee, who are we going to believe, Dale...You, or our lyin' eyes ???!!! :cool:

LOL @ Victor trying to pretend he is not clueless... he got the punches BECAUSE of the tactic.

[Knifefighter]

so are you saying that bjj has no defence for that or royce didn't know it.

Techniques and tactics are constantly evolving... Royce, at the time, had no answer to that tech. I'm sure he, as well as anyone else who understands how to figure out counters to newly introduced methods has now worked out at least one or two the counters to that particular tactic.

[Wayfaring]

so are you saying that bjj has no defence for that or royce didn't know it.

IMO what you know and what you can apply on a given night can be two different things.

That's why I would tend to take in consideration Royce's own opinion on that fight where he stated "I didn't show up that night".

As opposed to thinking that he didn't know how to or hadn't experienced escapes while being under side control with an arm pinned. That is not all that uncommon a position.

[SAAMAG]

That's the thing about competing; you might have trained hard and know your ****, but sometimes you're just off the day of the event.

[bennyvt]

I thought hughes was just better then royce. You can make many excuses but sometimes the better man wins.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Not usually a big WT fan, but this guy (Victor Guitterez) is growing on me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMW3o69t9LQ
I do believe he has now left the EWTO and is re-calibrating his training to be more resistance based.
The DVD series WT Re-Evolution ( at Amazon) is refreshing and very robust.

Any views, anyone trained with him personally?
Simon

I don't really know too much about the idea behind "re-evolution" but just a quick note (if we can just step aside from the whole demo vs. free fighting on video argument for a second) - i've not trained with Victor at all, but i sure would want to,

If you look at his drills, he trains with high intensity and encourages his students to do that too. I think that's a good thing, especially where in some wing chun schools including WT, that it's too soft or technical of an approach.

Another thing - some of the stuff may look like the partner is cooperating, and i'm sure there's a mutual understanding of this, but (although you can't tell from a clip), the nature of the hits due the wing chun way of hitting, HURTS and disrupts your axis - it's not apparent in many cases, and it just looks like the partner "gives up" but he 'gives up" because he feels the shock of the technique or whatever and knows there's really no point fighting it..otherwise Victor just gets hit more and more..

Some people do resist the attack (usually the newbies, bigger guys or full contact fighter guys), but that just makes the Sifu increase the intensity even more..after a few hits, what's the point of resisting anymore? the pain kicks in...or you get a good chop on the neck and have learned your lesson.. and they just decide to co-operate some more.

Given Victor's association with WT for so long regardless of how they re-package the same stuff over and over again, i like what i see from him and think it'd be cool train with him.

I like how he introduces a degree of realism of the attacker and forcing the wing chun guy to use his body to really put weight behind the hits. I think this is all good stuff!

[Ultimatewingchun]

He's not talking about me ...:cool: :D

[Wayfaring]

He's not talking about me ...:cool: :D

Aw, come on now, Victor. Are you telling me it's not you in the Lone Ranger mask at 1:58 here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPMkkpxWn8

:D:D:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Jeez, my secret is out. :eek:

[t_niehoff]

LOL @ Victor trying to pretend he is not clueless... he got the punches BECAUSE of the tactic.

Dale, I'm shocked that you, a BJJ black belt with over 30 years of competitive grappling experience, a person who has fought amateur and pro MMA (using grappling skills), and as someone who trains with very good grapplers and MMA fighters would have the temerity to suggest that someone whose grappling credentials are limited to watching bad Catch videos and rolling a bit with his untrained students is "clueless". ;)

[Frost]

Dale, I'm shocked that you, a BJJ black belt with over 30 years of competitive grappling experience, a person who has fought amateur and pro MMA (using grappling skills), and as someone who trains with very good grapplers and MMA fighters would have the temerity to suggest that someone whose grappling credentials are limited to watching bad Catch videos and rolling a bit with his untrained students is "clueless". ;)

LMAO :)
don't want to get into an arguement about catch again but BJJ has just as much pinning as any style, as Dale said it depends on the game you play, i once saw matt thorton put a BJJ brown belt to sleep at a seminar from a side control that was so tight the guy could not breath. Some guys have a fast loose game and some a tight hard pinning style, you need both to be really good and anyone that has actually competed knows this

[IRONMONK]

This is better :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja0XpVZl7Xs