Hip Movement

[Sihing73]

Hello,

This is mainly for Robert and Hendrick and Andreas if he is on the board.

I have been training in American Kunto Silat and they use a very interesting Hip Rotation to generate power. I do not see any reason to be unable to use this same dynamic with my Wing Chun.

After reading someone post about Andreas and Hendrick using they hip gyrations (akin to love making) I was curious and wanted to see if I could learn move about how they are using the hips.

I would really prefer to keep this discussion on tact and not diverge to other things or name calling etc. If that happens I will delete the thread.

Robert, Hendrick, Adreas, feel free to PM or contact me off line to discuss.

[Hendrik]

To reply your question,

Closer to Robert's, but I dont use hip the same way with Andreas.
That is because we all have different style and different style has different core philosophy.






Also, in my lineage, and I can speak for my lineage only, as Robert has mention, hip movement is less pronounce as time goes by because hip is a part of the body and snake movement must not emphasis on any part to get a smooth operation, due to as you know, "snake" engine is the emphasis of my lineage.

Ultimately, it got to get to the point of --- as the Intention makes the power is there. emphasis hip movement can become an issue or "break point of the chain" if not handle properly.

As for how to handle the hip and knees and every joint of spine...etc, that is where the Six dimensional force vectors balancing comes in to play. anything excessive create problem.

Thus, in the above one needs not to align the body similar to the traditional generalization way or require how each joint suppose to be alignt...etc. because the technology is suppose to be so simple and use both at static and dynamic state.

It is a different paradigm compare with the general -- sinking, rooting, standing post,
power generation.

further more, in my lineage, we dont generate power from hip or spine. also, the power generation has a few components for acceleration and propel outward, it is different then the usual thinking of using muscle or ground power. It is much complicated then that to analyze.


And ofcouse you always need to take in the consideration that every different style as a different way. and the above is just a way.



Hope this help.


A side topic:

This also open up a topic called Kuen Choong or Seed of the martial art. Since as most know Cho gar has lots collection sets of different style, thus, my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy was very particular to how the set done according to the Kuen Choong.

In an occation, I was doing my SLT with CLF they of hip move and step size, I got scold big time on this. He told me, " dont be Paan Chat (stupid) how the heck is that way of practice produce the short jin and gentle type appearence? you waste your practice making this type of mistake. now your practice not benifit you as CLF also not benifit you as WCK. be careful on the Kuen Choong. Know that before you do your set. cant be fuzzy."

So, one cant use cookie cutter one size fit all for everything, especially when it comes to power generation because every style or lineage is a custom made.

These days the term Kuen Choong seems like a vanished word. Cho family has lots of details description because Cho family is a Martial family for generations. As I was told ,for generation Cho family ancestors also earn and hold title in Qing Government martial school examination. So, Cho is very particular and precise in the ancient time because these people are real pro. After my sifu Cho Hong-Choy passed away, I have not yet met a person in Cho family go that deep in analized art, hope I could met some one someday who has the same level of understanding as my late sifu.

according to my sifu there is a reason for why thing was done the way it is . and also it often is not a single event but related to the whole system, and also knowing the Kuen Choong is knowing the strength and weakness of the art.

[kung fu fighter]

To reply your question, Closer to Robert's, but I dont use hip the same way with Andreas.


So you also pump the hips like lovemaking similar to Robert and Alan Orr, but more subtle to link the legs and whole body in your arm movements?

[Lee Chiang Po]

So you also pump the hips like lovemaking similar to Robert and Alan Orr, but more subtle to link the legs and whole body in your arm movements?


If I may, I do about the same thing. When we look at structure while we are exerting force or punching, we do so at an upward angle. Myself as an example. I drop down into stance, lower than when standing normal, and the opposing face is upward and away from me. To strike it I punch upward. Now, looking at placing a chair under a door knob to prevent it from being opened, you can see much the same structure. The chair is leaned at an angle, depending on the distance above the floor the knob is. 40 to 50 degrees maybe? Any more of an angle and the door might just shove the chair over. Any less and it might slide the chair across the floor. From our feet to our fist is that similar angle. We are not in such an angle when we move about, and when we punch, this pumping of the a$$ as we punch brings us into the proper angle to exert maximum force.
I might be wrong in my assessment, but I look at it like this. Every action is said to exert an equal opposing action. Not 100% true, but you see what I am saying. No matter how much force you exert, you will lose some of it unless you are rooted or structured. By this rooting structure the opposing force is blocked and thrown back in the original direction of exerted force, which can increase the power of your punch considerably.

[Hendrik]

So you also pump the hips like lovemaking similar to Robert and Alan Orr, but more subtle to link the legs and whole body in your arm movements?


I propose you reread my post again.

Same with those who thinking sinking solve all the details issues, you over simplified the issue. IMHO making an assumption of hip is the central of universe.

Go look at TST nim lik. How did he do it? Does he use hip? Or how does he uses his hip.

[kung fu fighter]

Go look at TST nim lik. How did he do it? Does he use hip? Or how does he uses his hip.

Do you apply dissolving, hua jing and An jing similar to TST's nim lik?

[Hendrik]

Do you apply dissolving, hua jing and An jing similar to TST's nim lik?

With all the posts including I offer you to fly to san jose which I have terminated yesterday,
Up to now, you need to realize you are missing some big parts on Jing cultivation basic.




find a good sifu and train you, those who has it has it via sifu's coaching, invest both money and sweat. That is the reality.

Thinking reading some posts here and Q/A in the internet will know what it is is extremely impractical. so, if you are serious about it, baisi to a good sifu to coach you, i would here on not wasting your time to reply on something you will not be able to comprehend due to you dont have the needed foundation.



As for Hua Jing, those who does sinking and rooting and alignment cant get it. In Daoist term, it is a product of Wu Wei or NON Doing. it is not spiral, it is not send force to the ground, it is not align the knees or ....etc. it is not even thinking how to push/press forward.
Those who has it will just let go and the hua jing is there.

[kung fu fighter]

Go look at TST nim lik. How did he do it? Does he use hip? Or how does he uses his hip.

Is what you are doing the same as TST's nim lik?

[LoneTiger108]

As for how to handle the hip and knees and every joint of spine...etc, that is where the Six dimensional force vectors balancing comes in to play. anything excessive create problem...

...This also open up a topic called Kuen Choong or Seed of the martial art. Since as most know Cho gar has lots collection sets of different style, thus, my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy was very particular to how the set done according to the Kuen Choong.

...These days the term Kuen Choong seems like a vanished word.

Again you introduce yet another term here Hendrik, and they too are familiar with me. I've been following how you discuss the 6 dimensional/vector forces and now you also mention a 'seed', kuen choong, which I have tried to discuss a few times before.

I find it interesting that you throw the convo into this as the thread is all about hip movement!


I have been training in American Kunto Silat and they use a very interesting Hip Rotation to generate power. I do not see any reason to be unable to use this same dynamic with my Wing Chun.

After reading someone post about Andreas and Hendrick using they hip gyrations (akin to love making) I was curious and wanted to see if I could learn move about how they are using the hips.

I would really prefer to keep this discussion on tact and not diverge to other things or name calling etc. If that happens I will delete the thread.

From my initial impression of Silat (Pencak) and discussing the core body mechanics with a guy in the UK called Steve Benitez, it was quite obvious that we shared very similar hei gung practises. The Silat was more dance orientated and flowery to the onlooker, but the venom was there in every attack and the snake energy was constantly moving. In fact it was similar in some sense to the BJJ drills I have seen, and you must be aware of the anaconda influence in BJJ right?

I came to the conclusion that we shared energy drills and exercises but we just applied the ideas differently. The Wing Chun energy has elements of crane too, and the Silat tended to be paired with the Tiger.

Just some thoughts...

[Vajramusti]

FWIW- I don;y think silat has much to do with wing chun.
I do not overemphasize or underemphasize the hips.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Again you introduce yet another term here Hendrik, and they too are familiar with me.

I've been following how you discuss the 6 dimensional/vector forces and now you also mention a 'seed', kuen choong, which I have tried to discuss a few times before.

I find it interesting that you throw the convo into this as the thread is all about hip movement!


.


Seed is 100% related to hip movement.
I dont understand what you mean by throw the convo.


So, what is the relationship between 6 dimentional force vectors and Kuen choong? or seed?

[chusauli]

Hello,

This is mainly for Robert and Hendrick and Andreas if he is on the board.

I have been training in American Kunto Silat and they use a very interesting Hip Rotation to generate power. I do not see any reason to be unable to use this same dynamic with my Wing Chun.

After reading someone post about Andreas and Hendrick using they hip gyrations (akin to love making) I was curious and wanted to see if I could learn move about how they are using the hips.

I would really prefer to keep this discussion on tact and not diverge to other things or name calling etc. If that happens I will delete the thread.

Robert, Hendrick, Adreas, feel free to PM or contact me off line to discuss.

Dave,

Do you have any clips of this art? I looked up youtube and saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViUNBp63uS8

Looks like some southern fist with Monkey style and Ba Gua. I remember seeing Paul deThouars and thinking some of his movements in application were like WCK, but the "diving" look of the body was different.

Other Pentjak Silat looked more like Karate or Ba Gua or native Indonesian stuff. I remember seeing Eddi Jafri in NYC and some demos by Herman Suwanda a while back.

I do not think they have the same core as us.

[Sihing73]

Hello Robert,

That clip is of the first five forms and is being performed by a Malibar Guru.

The first form, Djuru Satu, is a lot like Wing Chun in that it stressed attack and going forward. The body mechanics are different as there is more turning and twisting, so yes the core is different. However, I am wondering just how different as it is said that Yip Man taught a kneeling horse prior to coming to Hong Kong.

What interests me the most, at the moment, is the utilization of the hip for short range power. In the Silat aspects one draws in first and then expands, kind of like Hsing Yi to my way of thinking.

The way this art is presented reminds me of how I was first taught Wing Chun in terms of concepts and intent. The emphasis is on attacking both upper and lower levels at the same time. Something I have heard of a lot but rarely see applied effectively in Wing Chun.

Many of the concepts do seem to lend themselves easily to Wing Chun, although the flavor is definetely unique.

In any event I am enjoying the exploration.

[chusauli]

Dave,

I am glad you are enjoying the Silat. It is an interesting art. I do not see the similarity to Xing Yi, at least what i studied.

The Gwai ma is still different - it is a WCK Gwai Ma - executed while using WCK core mechanics. But then Silat is not WCK.

Thanks for sharing!

[Sihing73]

Hello Robert,

AKTS is not the same as most Silat as it is the Kuntao which is stressed.

When I refer to being similar to Hsing Yi I mean in how one is taught to load or draw in and then expand when striking. For example, one pulls the hands to the side and then punches. Of course, this loses a bit in translation as it is not that simplistic. Better to be shown in person. But I have seen Hsing Yi guys kind of roll around an incoming punch and then uncoil and explode outward. Very interesting and I imagine takes a great deal of skill and sensitivity.

From what I gather, Silat is less forgiving of mistakes than Kuntao. Kuntao seems to be more flowing as well. But, this is just from what I have observed. Of course, Kuntao is a blend of the Kung Fu and other arts.

[chusauli]

KFF,

I saw the clips that were up finally.

As I have said, TST's WCK has this capability and Instructor Tony Psaila has attainment and is teaching it well. The late Jim Fung was also well accomplished.

The terms are descriptive - but do you see the mechanics? Nothing to see...

Hawkins used to say to me, "The theory is fantastic, but can you do it?"

So you writing all over this forum to get confirmation is useless. There are no mechanics to see, only skill to attain.

Can you do it? If you can, there's no need to write me.

[kung fu fighter]

KFF,

I saw the clips that were up finally.

As I have said, TST's WCK has this capability and Instructor Tony Psaila has attainment and is teaching it well. The late Jim Fung was also well accomplished.

The terms are descriptive - but do you see the mechanics? Nothing to see...

Hawkins used to say to me, "The theory is fantastic, but can you do it?"

So you writing all over this forum to get confirmation is useless. There are no mechanics to see, only skill to attain.

Can you do it? If you can, there's no need to write me.

Thanks for the reply Robert,

You are absolutely correct, I was not looking to learn this skill from our dissussion on this forum, that would be impossible. I have already attained this skill many years ago. I was just looking for confirmation to find if what I was doing was the same as what hendrik discribes as Dissolve, Hua jing, and An jing.

This Skill is nothing new, but few have it. When I trained with Master Ho Kam Ming in the mid 90's, he definately had it, from what I can see WSL and TST also have it. Master Joe Ng in fut sao wing chun also have it. Master Ho just referred to it as elbow force and hong Jai (control). TST refer's to it as Nim Lik, Hendrik refers to it as 6 directional force vector and dissolve. so you can see how the terminology can be confusing, since it all different.

So to confirm what Hendrik discribes as Dissolve, Hua jing, And An jing is the exact same type of force handling/power generation as what Tony Psaila demo's in the clip above?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Navin,
I gotta tell you dude, you been around the block enough and even competed in full contact fighting.
If what you are doing is working for YOU then that is all that is needed.
There are no secrets bro, seriously.
Many people have words, few have skill.
Be one of those with skill.

[kung fu fighter]

Navin,
I gotta tell you dude, you been around the block enough and even competed in full contact fighting.
If what you are doing is working for YOU then that is all that is needed.
There are no secrets bro, seriously.
Many people have words, few have skill.
Be one of those with skill.

Hey thanks Paul,

The problem I have with this stuff is when someone trys to make something out to be mysterious, when it is in fact something very simple and can be explained like in the videos that I posted. I find it's a very imature and selfish way of thinking, no wonder why wing chun fighters has not advanced to the level of MMA fighters. There are no mysterious concepts in MMA, the one who trains smarter and harder will be better skilled. In order for wing chun to advance into the next generation everything needs to be put in the open on the table and evaluated objectively (NO SECRETS ALLOWED). Other wise the system will die out and be replaced by more practical systems. It is up to our generation to fix this before it's too late.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey thanks Paul,

The problem I have is when someone trys to make something out to be mysterious, when it is in fact something very simple.

Dude, don't even go there.
It really isn't even worth it.

Look at it this way, some of the best fighters on this planet are boxers, thai fighters, wreslters and MMA guys and NONE of them has ever needed to complicate the simple art of fighting.

[Hendrik]

I have already attained this skill many years ago. I was just looking for confirmation to find if what I was doing was the same as what hendrik discribes as Dissolve, Hua jing, and An jing.

TST refer's to it as Nim Lik, Hendrik refers to it as 6 directional force vector and dissolve. so you can see how the terminology can be confusing, since it all different.

So to confirm what Hendrik discribes as Dissolve, Hua jing, And An jing is the exact same type of force handling/power generation as what Tony Psaila demo's in the clip above?

if one truely has attained the skill.

it doesnt matter what others said or describe or confirmation.
For those who attain has the ability to see the signature disregards of how it is describe.


As for what is Hua Jing, An Jing, Six directional force vectors balancing, Nim Lik......etc.
If one knows one knows. If one dont one dont.

[sanjuro_ronin]

if one truely has attained the skill.

it doesnt matter what others said or describe or confirmation.
For those who attain has the ability to see the signature disregards of how it is describe.


As for what is Hua Jing, An Jing, Six directional force vectors balancing, Nim Lik......etc.
If one knows one knows. If one dont one dont.

So it doesn't matter if they explain it as CHI or as biomechanics?
Is that what you mean?

[kung fu fighter]

if one truely has attained the skill.

it doesnt matter what others said or describe or confirmation.
For those who attain has the ability to see the signature disregards of how it is describe.


As for what is Hua Jing, An Jing, Six directional force vectors balancing, Nim Lik......etc.
If one knows one knows. If one dont one dont.

Hendrik,
I understand what you are saying, however sometimes different terminology can be confusing. And forgive me if I am wrong, but it seemed at times like you were purposing using mysterious or misleading words to keep people guessing in order to maintain a secret. It's like a child showing his friend his new coolest toy but not allowing his friend to enjoy or play with it as well.

I mean did you really think that I would donate $800 to the elderly home, and buy a plane ticket to san jose, just learn something that I already knew:)

Don't get me wrong, I would love to spend an afternoon over coffee and discuss WCK with you because you seem like an interesting fellow, but I am not going to spend $2000 to do it:) If I was going to be there regardless, then it would make sense to get together with you like I have done with many others on the forum on my trips to NYC, Florida etc..

[Hendrik]

Why ask me if you have already know?
No need to post a dozen posts towards Robert and me to ask questions right? :D


BTW:
If you cant even give $800 to help the elderly home in your area which is doing good for your people.
What is the chance you could help WCner ?





Hendrik,
I understand what you are saying, however sometimes different terminology can be confusing. And forgive me if I am wrong, but it seemed at times like you were purposing using mysterious or misleading words to keep people guessing in order to maintain a secret. It's like a child showing his friend his new coolest toy but not allowing his friend to enjoy or play with it as well.

I mean did you really think that I would donate $800 to the elderly home, and buy a plane ticket to san jose, just learn something that I already knew:)

Don't get me wrong, I would love to spend an afternoon over coffee and discuss WCK with you because you seem like an interesting fellow, but I am not going to spend $2000 to do it:) If I was going to be there regardless, then it would make sense to get together with you like I have done with many others on the forum on my trips to NYC, Florida etc..

[Hendrik]

So it doesn't matter if they explain it as CHI or as biomechanics?
Is that what you mean?


Nope.

and either going the Chi path or force vectors path are depend on the nature characteristics of the phenomenon.

One doesnt explain liquid chemistry object with electrical system equation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nope.

and either going the Chi path or force vectors path are depend on the nature characteristics of the phenomenon.

One doesnt explain liquid chemistry object with electrical system equation.

There you go again, like a freaking broken record.

Dude, go take a course on how to express yourself, seriously.

[Hendrik]

There you go again, like a freaking broken record.

Dude, go take a course on how to express yourself, seriously.



you dont understand what I am saying isnt it?

[kung fu fighter]

Why ask me if you have already know?
No need to post a dozen posts towards Robert and me to ask questions right? :D

The Only reason I posted so much on the same question was because I wasn't getting a satisfactory answer until, until Robert's last post:D. which I extremely greatful for since it saves me a heck of alot of time:D.

Robert thanks a 1,000,000 for the confirmation .

[Hendrik]

The Only reason I posted so much on the same question was because I wasn't getting a satisfactory answer until, until Robert's last post:D. which I extremely greatful for since it saves me a heck of alot of time:D.

Robert thanks a 1,000,000 for the confirmation .


Ok. good that you satisfied now.

[chusauli]

Thanks for the reply Robert,

You are absolutely correct, I was not looking to learn this skill from our dissussion on this forum, that would be impossible. I have already attained this skill many years ago. I was just looking for confirmation to find if what I was doing was the same as what hendrik discribes as Dissolve, Hua jing, and An jing.

We do not know if you have this ability, although you say so.


This Skill is nothing new, but few have it. When I trained with Master Ho Kam Ming in the mid 90's, he definately had it, from what I can see WSL and TST also have it. Master Joe Ng in fut sao wing chun also have it. Master Ho just referred to it as elbow force and hong Jai (control). TST refer's to it as Nim Lik, Hendrik refers to it as 6 directional force vector and dissolve. so you can see how the terminology can be confusing, since it all different.

"Skill is nothing new, but few have" - it is the big clincher. No mystery, but who has it? HKM, TST, do and now, WSL has passed on. Joe Ng, I have not seen. Elbow force is inadequate to describe it, but "Hong Jai" is a good way to explain. "Nim Lik" can be a confusing term. 6 directional vector is old language translated to English, and "dissolve" is a good way to explain "Hua"...


So to confirm what Hendrik discribes as Dissolve, Hua jing, And An jing is the exact same type of force handling/power generation as what Tony Psaila demo's in the clip above?

KFF, is it?

[chusauli]

Hendrik,
I understand what you are saying, however sometimes different terminology can be confusing. And forgive me if I am wrong, but it seemed at times like you were purposing using mysterious or misleading words to keep people guessing in order to maintain a secret. It's like a child showing his friend his new coolest toy but not allowing his friend to enjoy or play with it as well.

I mean did you really think that I would donate $800 to the elderly home, and buy a plane ticket to san jose, just learn something that I already knew:)

Don't get me wrong, I would love to spend an afternoon over coffee and discuss WCK with you because you seem like an interesting fellow, but I am not going to spend $2000 to do it:) If I was going to be there regardless, then it would make sense to get together with you like I have done with many others on the forum on my trips to NYC, Florida etc..


He owes you nothing Navin.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you dont understand what I am saying isnt it?

I don't understand WHY you need to SAY it in such a criptic way dude, that's all.

[LoneTiger108]

FWIW- I don;y think silat has much to do with wing chun.
I do not overemphasize or underemphasize the hips.

joy chaudhuri

I was only attempting to create a link between similar ideas Joy. You're right, the two styles have nothing to do with eachother, which imo is a shame.

FWIW I do see Wing Chun in many (if not all) arts and definitely see a relationship to the snake energy of Silat and Wing Chuns use of the hip. I have to say though, the Silat I have seen looks almost nothing like the Kunto clip here. What I saw was very feminine, flexible and animal-like in nature.


Seed is 100% related to hip movement.
I dont understand what you mean by throw the convo.

I meant that you have diverted the thread from its original topic, being hip movement, to seeds and vector forces. I now see that they are linked and 100% related, according to your learning.


So, what is the relationship between 6 dimentional force vectors and Kuen choong? or seed?

First of all, I think I have a completely differing view on the 'seed' of Wing Chun as I have explained before on the forum. Funnily enough it just fell on deaf ears as nobody responded to the idea at all.

You mave have to help me here! Explain what you mean by 'seed' as I think even the character you refer to is different, or at least the spelling is (choong). With regards to vector forces, I couldn't say. I have no degree in physics I'm afraid but I do know the terms 6 harmonies, 6 joints, 6 links, 6 changes which are all various ways of explaining this TCMedicine concept.

Maybe Robert can explain what he knows of the 6 harmonies, as I believe the concept is the same as your 6 vector forces. I may then offer what I know if anyone is still interested!

[chusauli]

Hey Robert!



Perhaps the next time that you speak to our mutual pin sun wck friend, you can asked him if i have this ability or not, since we both touched hands with him.

I most definately have the same type of energy that TST refer's to as Nim Lik, what i am trying to figure out is if Nim Lik and Hua jing are the same thing?

You are absolutely correct, however this is a discussion board. And I would like to think that we are all on here to share for the better good of the art of wing chun.

Thanks for sharing!


"Nim Lik" is the "power of intention" - you control your intent to guide your "energy" and resources (body, alignment, mass, etc.) to a particular area. This does not mean Nim Lik = Hua Jing (Faa Ging). Hua Jing is letting go, allowing the opponent's force to dissolve into nothingness, into the body, or into timing where a load is taken, given up, dropped, displaced, or moved elsewhere. I gladly speak of it, but showing and doing is impossible in this medium.

Its not just semantics or "overcomplication" of the martial arts, in fact, this level of discussion is what differentiates Chinese martial arts from other martial arts. Other martial arts may speak of downing an opponent and defeating them, but that is one functional aspect. That can be a lifetime endeavor, but Chinese Martial arts speak of this sophistication which breaks down slivers of this type of action in order to bring higher levels.

It is always the dichotomy of art and functionality that people have to balance - that's what gives the arts appeal to pursue. Perhaps in a broad sense, people are spending too much time on this sophistication and not enough on overall functionality, but if not, the arts die out. There are levels of sophistication in which it is necessary to be humble, ask for teaching and undergo financial and time resources to learn and they would be worthwhile to pursue. There are oldschoolers who still adhere to that tradition. To say its not worthwhile and an attitude of boisterous and unwillingness to humble one's self sets a tone of not being a worthy student. But sometimes it is also a matter of Chinese and other cultures.

Gene Ching once mentioned to me that MMA was the "dumbing down of martial arts", and to a degree, there is some truth in that. Yet, on the other hand, there is a great development in the field of athletics, strength and conditioning which creates an exciting arena. A MA magazine owner once stated how bogus the martial arts were after he had seen these so-called "masters" here and he was greatly disillusioned by the lack of real skill, but there is real skill, regardless of video or not, or show or not.

Hawkins often told me he could judge a student by their questions. Questions always show where a person's mind is. When there were no more questions, it means that either the student already knows, quit, or not smart enough to ask the right questions, or ignorant of anything else. And that when students were too quick to answer or had a canned answer, he could tell if they really had attainment. Master Hsuan Hua said, "If one doesn't know, even a library is not enough; but if one knows, one word is too much."

Hendrik didn't even want a cent for himself. Most of you think too little of him. Perhaps because Hendrik and I can really communicate and we know each other for years that I understand him.

Just food for thought.

[Hendrik]

I don't understand WHY you need to SAY it in such a criptic way dude, that's all.

Ok. understood. an accept your view. Thanks for the critics.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Perhaps because Hendrik and I can really communicate and we know each other for years that I understand him.


I am glad that you do Robert because, to be honest, He over complicates everything becuase of how he purposely says stuff, giving the allusion that he has some "super secret" knowledge that no one else has.
He is critical of all other approaches of explaining things, except his.
Or at least that is what he comes off as being.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
So, what is the relationship between 6 dimentional force vectors and Kuen choong? or seed?


First of all, I think I have a completely differing view on the 'seed' of Wing Chun as I have explained before on the forum. Funnily enough it just fell on deaf ears as nobody responded to the idea at all.

You mave have to help me here! Explain what you mean by 'seed' as I think even the character you refer to is different, or at least the spelling is (choong). With regards to vector forces, I couldn't say. I have no degree in physics I'm afraid but I do know the terms 6 harmonies, 6 joints, 6 links, 6 changes which are all various ways of explaining this TCMedicine concept. ------ L


Why get to the chinese term and mumbo jumbo like fortune cookies language?


Kuen Choong is the seed or core technology of the art.
Six dimentional/directional force vectors is a tools which is very physics or scientific that could be used to analyze or synthesis the core technology.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kuen Choong is the seed or core technology of the art.
Six dimentional/directional force vectors is a tools which is very physics or scientific that could be used to analyze or synthesis the core technology.



http://www.courtneyhoskins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

[Hendrik]

I am glad that you do Robert because, to be honest, He over complicates everything becuase of how he purposely says stuff, giving the allusion that he has some "super secret" knowledge that no one else has.
He is critical of all other approaches of explaining things, except his.
Or at least that is what he comes off as being.




You have a great point. however, perhaps just perhaps you dont see what I see and you dont know every details what I bring up has its purpose.



For example,

I brought up the force vectors components you said it is too much details. Well, if you attent a mechanics or physics 101 class at any university that is what needed. Otherwise you are not speaking mechanics or physics.

Also,

I brought up :


and either going the Chi path or force vectors path are depend on the nature characteristics of the phenomenon.

One doesnt explain liquid chemistry object with electrical system equation.


which is no ambiguity for those who knows how to fajin and lead the Zhen Qi according to the medirians and those who knows Chemistry and writing state space electical system equation.

These things cant be fuzzy.

Fajin needs to deal with force vectors to the extreme details that is call smooth handling.
Leading Zhen Qi needs to deal with silence in mind or alpha and else brain wave state.


In additional,

One could Balancing a Chemical Equation such as

CH4 + 2 O2 → CO2 + 2 H2O


however that is a different type of equation compare with Electical system equation

vL(t)=-(1/C)q(t)-Ri(t)+v(t)

[note that vL+vR+vC=v(t)];



So, perhaps I am following my engineering training but you are not use to that much details? Or may be you need some prerequisite knowledge before you could comprehend what I am presenting?

am I over complicated things and behave as you mention?
Or if someone who knows the Qi and fajing and force vectors will tell you Hendrik has put everything infront of everyone's eyes but you dont see it.


See, to know what

CH4 + 2 O2 → CO2 + 2 H2O

and

vL(t)=-(1/C)q(t)-Ri(t)+v(t)

[note that vL+vR+vC=v(t)];

means one needs a certain level of background.


In a conclusion, Your critics on my might be 100% hit the bull eyes and right. However, what if there is a chance that you dont see the depth and details what i present and also, that level of details depth and details are needed to implemented or create reality?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have a great point. however, perhaps just perhaps you dont see what I see and you dont know every details what I bring up has its purpose.



For example,

I brought up the force vectors components you said it is too much details. Well, if you attent a mechanics or physics 101 class at any university that is what needed. Otherwise you are not speaking mechanics or physics.

Also,

I brought up :


which is no ambiguity for those who knows how to fajin and lead the Zhen Qi according to the medirians and those who knows Chemistry and writing state space electical system equation.

These things cant be fuzzy.

Fajin needs to deal with force vectors to the extreme details that is call smooth handling.
Leading Zhen Qi needs to deal with silence in mind or alpha and else brain wave state.


In additional,

One could Balancing a Chemical Equation such as

CH4 + 2 O2 → CO2 + 2 H2O


however that is a different type of equation compare with Electical system equation

vL(t)=-(1/C)q(t)-Ri(t)+v(t)

[note that vL+vR+vC=v(t)];



So, perhaps I am following my engineering training but you are not use to that much details? Or may be you need some prerequisite knowledge before you could comprehend what I am presenting?

am I over complicated things and behave as you mention?
Or if someone who knows the Qi and fajing and force vectors will tell you Hendrik has put everything infront of everyone's eyes but you dont see it.


See, to know what

CH4 + 2 O2 → CO2 + 2 H2O

and

vL(t)=-(1/C)q(t)-Ri(t)+v(t)

[note that vL+vR+vC=v(t)];

means one needs a certain level of background.

Don't make me faceplam you again !
Dude, I am a mechanical Engineer, I know over complicated BS when I read it.

[Hendrik]

Don't make me faceplam you again !
Dude, I am a mechanical Engineer, I know over complicated BS when I read it.


That is your opinion.
Doesnt mean you are right. also to be polite with you in my previous post also doesnt mean you are right.


If you are a mechanical engineer, why do you so resistance to force vectors and trajectory where every they were basic of the basic in physics and mechanics 101?

with your ways of describing your so called bio mechanics, to be real honest, it totally un profesionally train in engineering field with the reference from Standford U or MIT.

So where do you earn your BS degree which university?

Also, do you know what and how is fajin? what and how to lead Qi ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is your opinion.

If you are a mechanical engineer, why do you so resistance to force vectors and trajectory where every they were basic of the basic in physics and mechanics 101?
So where do you earn your BS degree?

Also, do you know what and how is fajin? what and how to lead Qi ?

I am not resistent to force vectors, trajectory, impulse, kinetic energy, impact force, etc, etc, far from it.
I just notice that Mike Tyson did fine without any of it.

Do you get my Point Hendrick?
Really get it?
You are standing in front of a huge forest and you are having a hard time seeing because you are focused on tree bark and nothing else, so focused that you need to explain that tree bark to its sub-atomic level to people that are just interested on the forest.

As for my degree in Mec. Eng.
Ryerson here in Toronto.
I also have a BA from the UofT and currently working on a degree on Theology.

[Hendrik]

I


As for my degree in Mec. Eng.
Ryerson here in Toronto.
I also have a BA from the UofT and currently working on a degree on Theology.

so you have a BS ME?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most bachelors' programs are four years in length. Often a bachelor's degree is referred to as a B.A. (bachelor's of arts) or B.S. (bachelor's of science).

Come on, BA is not a BSc degree or a BE (bachelor in engineering ) degree.

the training is different the way of thinking is different.
That explain the angle of your view. So, please dont use an Arts degree view to make judgement and called solid Science and Engineering in details B$.


If some one claim they are a mechanical engineer, I expect them to have a BSME or MSME or PHD ME.

See, that is so you.
I have a Bachelors' in Business from U of T, my Eng degree is from Ryerson.
Did you even READ my post? or just picked up what YOU THOUGHT you saw??

[Hendrik]

See, that is so you.
I have a Bachelors' in Business from U of T, my Eng degree is from Ryerson.
Did you even READ my post? or just picked up what YOU THOUGHT you saw??

Opps. I just saw it.

So you have a BSME?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Opps. I just saw it.

So you have a BSME?

I have a BEng in Mechanical Engineering.

[Hendrik]

I have a BEng in Mechanical Engineering.


Great.

Since you have engineering training,


So, what's wrong with using the force vectors and legitimate science to present ideas?
as you know in the field of engineering details is needed for clarification.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great.

Since you have engineering training,


So, what's wrong with using the force vectors and legitimate science to present ideas?
as you know in the field of engineering details is needed for clarification.

There is nothing wrong with it, I have done it many times, especially in regards to weight distribution, you are missing the point.
The issue is the WAY you do it dude.

[Hendrik]

There is nothing wrong with it, I have done it many times, especially in regards to weight distribution,

you are missing the point.

The issue is the WAY you do it dude.



OK.


Do you know how to fajin? how to lead Qi? and Have a handling on the process or synthesis of fajin and lead Qi?
what level of experience or mastery do you have?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you know how to fajin? how to lead Qi? and Have a handling on the process of synthesis?
what level of experience or mastery do you have?

http://jaysolomon.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/anal_bum_cover.jpg

[Hendrik]

http://jaysolomon.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/anal_bum_cover.jpg



You dont have to like my post and you dont have to read it. I am doing my best to give as much details to those who is interested.



What is the point of doing personal attack such as


Dude, I am a mechanical Engineer, I know over complicated BS when I read it.




Not to mention, you said there is nothing wrong with using force vectors analysis
such as

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
There is nothing wrong with it, I have done it many times, especially in regards to weight distribution,

and

You are not experience in the Fajin and Qi leading.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are not experience in the Fajin and Qi leading.

No Hendrick, I am not, not according to you.
Matter of fact, according to you, NO ONE is except those that YOU deem that are.
And you base that on what?
No one knows except you.
Dude, seriously.

[Hendrik]

No Hendrick, I am not, not according to you.
Matter of fact, according to you, NO ONE is except those that YOU deem that are.
And you base that on what?
No one knows except you.
Dude, seriously.



i ask you a few times and no answer but posting all kind of pictures.

If you know, then post it here. I am more then happy to learn from you.

Why react as the above and in the previous posts?

I am waiting for your full analysis using force vectors or tensor analysis or analysis you choice.

I am waiting for you to describe a repeatable process of synthesis of Fajin and Qi leading which is not complex according to you.


I hope you can live up with your own critics and know what you are talking about. So please enlightent me.

[punchdrunk]

answering questions by asking questions... same old song and dance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am waiting for you to describe a repeatable process of synthesis of Fajin and Qi leading which is not complex according to you.

No problem dude, why didn't you say so before :)
I just need on little think from you before I do that, it's no biggie but it will help me because it will allow me to understand YOUR Point of reference.
What is Qi? and what proof do we have that it exists?

[bennyvt]

is your idea that without a degree you would not be able to understand? What degree did your teacher have? How about his teacher. He explained it like that did he. How about the guy that made it up, what university did he go to, he understood physics but its been a secret in your lineage for the last four hundred years. Could it be you are just moulding what you have been told to modern science. Like creationism. How did it get taught before the science came in. What exercises or theory made it able to be transfered before people knew the science behind it.

[CFT]

Obviously the ancestors will have used different language. But if the "process" works then there is an underlying physical principle that can be described using a modern scientific framework.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Obviously the ancestors will have used different language. But if the "process" works then there is an underlying physical principle that can be described using a modern scientific framework.

Yes, indeed, that is a fact, but HOW MUCH detail do you NEED to go into?
Not that much really.
Most sport performance coaches that have been around the block can explain the most complicated of human movements in very simple language.
Fact is things should be as the old saying goes:
Explain it to me like I was a 4 year old.

[Hendrik]

is your idea that without a degree you would not be able to understand?

Degree is a training which influence how one think.
With a certain degree one think a certain way.

If one like to discuss thing in/with a scientific way then one needs to follow the basic of that field.

Such as: if one like to use mechanics or physics then force vector is in avoidable. Because force vectors is the basic building blocks of mechanics or physics.






How about the guy that made it up, what university did he go to, he understood physics but its been a secret in your lineage for the last four hundred years.

Taji, Hsing Yi, YI Chuan and other TCMA IMA has used term Jin or Force Vectors, if translate in English to the field of physics and mechanics, to describe the phenomenon of power generation/ handling for hundreds of years and to describe proven process based on these description to synthesis power generation/handling.

The exact term : six directional/dimensional force vectors is not a new term at all for TCMA IMA. thus, for anyone who study , know, and capable to fajin this is the basic of the basic.

Is is real strange here is some always complain about other holding secret.....etc.
However, when real things is introduce using solid basic physics description. All type of complain arise.

Didnt everyone want to go Scientific? Didnt everyone want to know what it is with the common scientific ground? So what is the point to complain on giving you what you asking for?
What is the point to complain when details are describe in the area which you have no experience with and thus do not appreciate why it is there?

I hope some could be smarter instead of trying to proof how smart they are but evidence show they are clueless of the topic.




Could it be you are just moulding what you have been told to modern science. Like creationism.

How did it get taught before the science came in.

What exercises or theory made it able to be transfered before people knew the science behind it.


Science is just a tool to describe natural phenomenon.
Natural phenomenon exist with or without science.

As above, I am trying to do you all a favor to give you insight into what is behind the close door with today's physics and mechanics, as you ask for.

Now, with all these, It is much easier to no longer provide any further information and let you do what you all like. Because your action show that it is not the topic and communication via physics or mechancis you are looking for.

[Hendrik]

Dont you know it all? Why ask me about Qi?

My point of reference is simple, use solid basic physics or mechanics or control system's State space equations as reference.

I am waiting for your presentation.






No problem dude, why didn't you say so before :)

I just need on little think from you before I do that, it's no biggie but it will help me because it will allow me to understand YOUR Point of reference.

What is Qi? and what proof do we have that it exists?

[CFT]

Yes, indeed, that is a fact, but HOW MUCH detail do you NEED to go into?
Not that much really.
Most sport performance coaches that have been around the block can explain the most complicated of human movements in very simple language.
Fact is things should be as the old saying goes:
Explain it to me like I was a 4 year old.I agree. If it is a "proper process" it can be mapped. It should be definable and repeatable. Of course in the end, the level of skill attained is down to the individual.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dont you know it all? Why ask me about Qi?

My point of reference is simple, use solid basic physics or mechanics or control system's State space equations as reference.

I am waiting for your presentation.

See, that's just it isn't Hendrick, you want me to explain fajing, fine, but you also want me to explain:
Qi leading
So, you show me where the term "QI" is mentioned in physics and I will explain how you can lead it.
I await your responses with baited breath.

[bennyvt]

all you have done is use some other peoples studies and told people without a degree you won't discuss it. Where is the explanation that you have given us. Jing, how many people translate that into force vectors. I thought it meant power? What we are saying there is a big difference between sounding like a taoist monk and being a science professor. I don't need a formula just a dumbed down version would be great.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fa jing means "issuing power".
How one DOES it is what makes on system distinct from another.
Boxers "issue power", wrestlers "issue power", powerlifters "issue power", they all do it in different ways for their different goals.

[SAAMAG]

Fa jing means "issuing power".
How one DOES it is what makes on system distinct from another.
Boxers "issue power", wrestlers "issue power", powerlifters "issue power", they all do it in different ways for their different goals.

This is true in a literal sense. Though when I learned fa-jing it was meant more as issuing one's internal energy. Either way it's discussing a method of issuing a form of kinetic energy from one person into another. Usually in a short jolt / wave.

But hey why talk about it when you can see it?! :p

http://www.clearstaichi.com/tai-chi-video-clips/examples-of-fa-jing-energy-transfer-316

Eh.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Erle's got a couple of clips explaining his version of Fa jing, but I have always like this little demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

[SAAMAG]

Erle's got a couple of clips explaining his version of Fa jing, but I have always like this little demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

Huh. Must be why I've heard it called vibrating energy!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Huh. Must be why I've heard it called vibrating energy!

I knew this girl that...ah never mind.

[SAAMAG]

I knew this girl that...ah never mind.

A picture is worth a thousand words my friend. lol

[LoneTiger108]

Why get to the chinese term and mumbo jumbo like fortune cookies language?

Because maybe I like fortune cookies!? And seriously Hendrik, if you wanted to be all modern and scientific you wouldn't use Kuen Kuit would you?

I'll ask again, is the 6 force vectors you talk of related to the 6 harmonies? And what character do you use for 'choong'?


Kuen Choong is the seed or core technology of the art. Six dimentional/directional force vectors is a tools which is very physics or scientific that could be used to analyze or synthesis the core technology.

How does using this term actual help us 'normal folk' understand a very simple concept? Does the 6 DFV relate directly to the human body as the 6 harmonies do?

FWIW The seed I have been exposed to is described as the 3 seeds of bong, tan and fook. This I also understand as the core technology you describe as without understanding this very simple idea your Wing Chun can become something else entirely. The 3 seeds generate everything and everything evolves from the 3 seeds.

As for what I know of the 6 harmonies, it's very simple really. The basic 6 joints in the body are trained to compliment eachother in specific ways. The most advanced I have seen this type of training has to be a floor gymnast or ballet dancer. Basically, having the correct alignment of all 6 joints while advancing is a goal of Wing Chun. How you project this power depends on what you want to accomplish and one type of power projection is faa ging, another is choone ging and even geng ging is useful! A distinctive WCK term for issuing power is chook ging, something that has been discussed before too.

On a side note, this 'mumbo jumbo' was specifically referred to (in the old days!) as Traditional Wing Chun and I prefer the term 'Classical' as it draws upon older texts and medicinal knowledge and it doesn't cause confusion with William Cheung Family practitioners!

[Knifefighter]

Dude, don't even go there.
It really isn't even worth it.

Look at it this way, some of the best fighters on this planet are boxers, thai fighters, wreslters and MMA guys and NONE of them has ever needed to complicate the simple art of fighting.

Bingo! And if you observe the way the humans who produce the most power from their bodies move their hips you will see two basic things:

1- A specific hip rotation that comes when power is produced by unilateral arm movements (throwing a baseball or football, hitting a tennis ball, throwing a punch, etc) and double arm arcing motions (hitting a baseball).

2- A specific hip extension that comes when power is produced by movements done with the arms in unison (weight lifting, grappling takedowns, etc).

Changing the hip movement from either of these two things or trying to do one hip movement in the context of the other one is simply a recipe for decreasing power production.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bingo! And if you observe the way the humans who produce the most power from their bodies move their hips you will see too basic things:

1- A specific hip rotation that comes when power is produced by unilateral arm movements (throwing a baseball or football, hitting a tennis ball, throwing a punch, etc) and double arm arcing motions (hitting a baseball).

2- A specific hip extension that comes when power is produced by movements done with the arms in unison (weight lifting, grappling takedowns, etc).

Changing the hip movement from either of these two things or trying to do one hip movement in the context of the other one is simply a recipe for decreasing power production.

I could KIND of argue that there is no such thing as unilateral, but I think I know what you mean and I agree.
And all that without the use of "force vectors".
Shocking !

[Knifefighter]

Gene Ching once mentioned to me that MMA was the "dumbing down of martial arts", and to a degree, there is some truth in that. .

LOL... if anything, MMA was the smartest thing that could ever happen to the martial arts. Of course, there are still some dumb people who still buy into internal, fajing, qi, and all the other bullsh!t that was the very reason for MMA to begin with in the first place.

[KC Elbows]

LOL... if anything, MMA was the smartest thing that could ever happen to the martial arts. Of course, there are still some dumb people who still buy into internal, fajing, qi, and all the other bullsh!t that was the very reason for MMA to begin with in the first place.

Fajing and swinging a bat are the same. The hip rotation and the two arms are only there for the start: in the end, one arm is continuing on it's own, past the hip rotation. This is how I was taught by a major league batting coach. This is also a common fa jing practice, probably one of the most basic.

Aspirin still works for a headache despite the fact that the people who first knew it did thought it was good spirits in the willow bark. In fact, a tremendous amount of medicine owes it's use to peoples who had wrong explanations for why these things worked, but were right about what they worked for. Doctors were wise to keep an eye out for such things, but they, of course, don't have the same stringent educations as your typical mixed martial artist.:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Fajing and swinging a bat are the same. The hip rotation and the two arms are only there for the start: in the end, one arm is continuing on it's own, past the hip rotation. This is how I was taught by a major league batting coach. This is also a common fa jing practice, probably one of the most basic.

Aspirin still works for a headache despite the fact that the people who first knew it did thought it was good spirits in the willow bark.

You are right about the labels. If fajing is the same as swinging a bat, it is also the same as throwing a boxing punch, and the same as hitting a tennis ball, and the same as throwing a javelin... there's nothing that differentiates it from any other the other basic movements being done.

[Knifefighter]

This is true in a literal sense. Though when I learned fa-jing it was meant more as issuing one's internal energy. Either way it's discussing a method of issuing a form of kinetic energy from one person into another. Usually in a short jolt / wave.

But hey why talk about it when you can see it?! :p

http://www.clearstaichi.com/tai-chi-video-clips/examples-of-fa-jing-energy-transfer-316

Eh.

LOL... I guess people will always be fooled by bullsh!t.

[KC Elbows]

You are right about the labels. If fajing is the same as swinging a bat, it is also the same as throwing a boxing punch, and the same as hitting a tennis ball, and the same as throwing a javelin... there's nothing that differentiates it from any other the other basic movements being done.

A boxing punch simply doesn't use the same body mechanics as swinging a baseball bat. Period. The swing you describe isn't a full swing, it is only to the point of contact with the ball. The part that follows is where most of the technical skill of hitting lies, and it has nothing to do with a boxing punch.

I'm not saying there are magic movements, but you're dead wrong comparing totally different types of power generation to a boxing punch. Throwing a javelin is not the same, hitting a baseball is most certainly not the same, and both cases have closer cousins in fajin practice than in boxing, so I'm baffled where you're going with this.

[Knifefighter]

A boxing punch simply doesn't use the same body mechanics as swinging a baseball bat. Period. The swing you describe isn't a full swing, it is only to the point of contact with the ball. The part that follows is where most of the technical skill of hitting lies, and it has nothing to do with a boxing punch.

I'm not saying there are magic movements, but you're dead wrong comparing totally different types of power generation to a boxing punch. Throwing a javelin is not the same, hitting a baseball is most certainly not the same, and both cases have closer cousins in fajin practice than in boxing, so I'm baffled where you're going with this.


I'm talking about hip movement, since that was what the thread was about.

BTW, as soon as the force is transferred from the force producing surface to the force receiving surface, follow through is irrelevant. Good follow-through is simply the result of good biomechanics that occurred during the force production movement.

[Vajramusti]

Fajing?

None of the above imo.

joy chaudhuri

[KC Elbows]

I'm talking about hip movement, since that was what the thread was about.

BTW, as soon as the force is transferred from the force producing surface to the force receiving surface, follow through is irrelevant. Good follow-through is simply the result of good biomechanics that occurred during the force production movement.

When swinging a bat, there are a specific set of reasons one will release the rear hand from the bat as contact is made. Whether one opts to do this, and what they do with it, defines what sort of hit more than the moment of contact with the ball. Good follow-through IS the art of hitting the ball, not good power generation, and it is not a result of the initial motion, but a choice.

Regardless, the rotation of the hip in hitting a ball is unique to that, and not germane to a boxing punch except in that some rotation is present. Punch like you're swinging a bat, and you're over committed. Withdrawing from that rotation at different points is germane to some fajin.

The problem some fajin proponents fall into is that they don't understand this same concept, and confuse fajin for being solely about having some sort of mystical power.

The problem some fajin detractors have is that they assume Taoist references are always mystical. Philosophical Taoists didn't take the same tact. They might have referred to something as chi, but what they referred to when using the term were common physiological things lacking clear explanations, not mystical things they wanted to exist. Over time, the term has taken on a more jargonistic role, and it is mainly people outside of that jargon who wish to summarize it by previous definitions and judge it as though each person using that term means "mystical energy".

[chusauli]

LOL... if anything, MMA was the smartest thing that could ever happen to the martial arts. Of course, there are still some dumb people who still buy into internal, fajing, qi, and all the other bullsh!t that was the very reason for MMA to begin with in the first place.

I see it from both ways.

MMA is functional martial sports. One practices the functional basics of a gamut of boxing, wrestling, judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Karate, but they don't progress from other than functional basics in the confines of the sport.

Classical Chinese Martial arts still need to be preserved as culture and art, otherwise, all the deep knowledge is lost. You don't need much of that knowledge from a functional point of view, though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem I have seen with some fajing is is the lack of follow through, they put the brakes on too early.
This is because they tend to develop it "in the air" as opposed to hitting something.
It is the "deaccelaration" that makes fajing unique, that in the "short distance impulse" which, IMO, go hand-in-hand.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can see why Gene said that about MMA, MMA is reducing the MA to its very basic parts, fighting in the most direct and effective mode possible.
The "rest" of the MA is eliminated.
Which makes MMA a great place to start your MA, but not a place to stay.

[KC Elbows]

Classical Chinese Martial arts still need to be preserved as culture and art, otherwise, all the deep knowledge is lost. You don't need much of that knowledge from a functional point of view, though.

What if preserving its culture means losing its art?

And what martial knowledge do we need, from a functional point of view?

A lot of people assume that what they know about their art is their art, or what their teacher knows is their art. IME, realistic practice makes it more self evident than any teacher ever could. It's not rocket science, after all. Accept loss, keep testing it until you understand it by being able to apply it live, and then you have the qualifications to judge. Many who now sit in judgment of kung fu from past training were trained without aliveness, and consider their judgment as sound as their judgments about their current styles, trained with aliveness.

[Knifefighter]

I see it from both ways.

MMA is functional martial sports. One practices the functional basics of a gamut of boxing, wrestling, judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Karate, but they don't progress from other than functional basics in the confines of the sport.

As long as you continue to practice and compete, you continue to progress. Do you think a tennis player, baseball player, swimmer, track athlete, or any other competitive athlete doesn't continue to progress through their careers? Thinking that MMA athletes are any different is the thinking of a theoretical non-fighter.

BTW, as any world class athlete will tell you, getting better and better at the functional basics is one of the things that separates the elites from the non-so-elites.

[Knifefighter]

I can see why Gene said that about MMA, MMA is reducing the MA to its very basic parts, fighting in the most direct and effective mode possible.
The "rest" of the MA is eliminated.
Which makes MMA a great place to start your MA, but not a place to stay.

That's like saying staying with swimming is not a good place to stay if you want to be a good swimmer.


What MMA did, was put the martial back into martial arts.

[KC Elbows]

As long as you continue to practice and compete, you continue to progress. Do you think a tennis player, baseball player, swimmer, track athlete, or any other competitive athlete doesn't continue to progress through their careers? Thinking that MMA athletes are any different is the thinking of a theoretical non-fighter.

BTW, as any world class athlete will tell you, getting better and better at the functional basics is one of the things that separates the elites from the non-so-elites.

What MMA did, was put the martial back into martial arts.

No argument here.

[SAAMAG]

LOL... I guess people will always be fooled by bullsh!t.

Hence the facetious reason of why I posted it.

There's actual "neija" based concepts and theories -- and then there's that. Obviously I feel that both of the videos are hogwash.

However I have been hit by someone who I feel is a proper neija martial artist, and while I didn't start jumbling around and acting like I was going to pop from being full of energy, I did feel a distinct difference in how the energy penetrated my body as opposed to a standard strike. He was better at transferring his energy in a natural way....and the **** makes you want to sit down for a bit even when he casually hits you.

[chusauli]

As long as you continue to practice and compete, you continue to progress. Do you think a tennis player, baseball player, swimmer, track athlete, or any other competitive athlete doesn't continue to progress through their careers? Thinking that MMA athletes are any different is the thinking of a theoretical non-fighter.

BTW, as any world class athlete will tell you, getting better and better at the functional basics is one of the things that separates the elites from the non-so-elites.

Like I said, I see it from both ends. I think they can get better at the functional, but penetrating the depths of the classical game is lost.

Look at Judo - it used to be they'd throw you and then take you down and submit you or choke you out. Kano only wanted the spectactular throws to be used in competition and they got adopted in Olympic Judo. Some old Judoka still retain the old methods and proficient in their ground game. How many still do Kata and learn all the Kata of Judo? In learning the only functional aspects for shiai, the Koshiki Waza, Goshin jutsu, Ju No Kata and the like are almost extinct. Is that the fate of the Chinese martial arts? I realize you couldn't care less about that.

Preserving Chinese culture is not important to you or others. But those who still do, that is important.

Some people like shooting old revolvers for fun...of course, if it were based on functional, I'd use the latest semi-automatic handgun - more firepower and faster to reload. But I can see why some people still fence, play archery, blackpowder or use wheel guns. Its part of culture.

What do you have to say about that?

[Knifefighter]

Like I said, I see it from both ends. I think they can get better at the functional, but penetrating the depths of the classical game is lost.

Look at Judo - it used to be they'd throw you and then take you down and submit you or choke you out. Kano only wanted the spectactular throws to be used in competition and they got adopted in Olympic Judo. Some old Judoka still retain the old methods and proficient in their ground game. How many still do Kata and learn all the Kata of Judo? In learning the only functional aspects for shiai, the Koshiki Waza, Goshin jutsu, Ju No Kata and the like are almost extinct. Is that the fate of the Chinese martial arts? I realize you couldn't care less about that.

Preserving Chinese culture is not important to you or others. But those who still do, that is important.

Some people like shooting old revolvers for fun...of course, if it were based on functional, I'd use the latest semi-automatic handgun - more firepower and faster to reload. But I can see why some people still fence, play archery, blackpowder or use wheel guns. Its part of culture.

What do you have to say about that?

Nothing wrong with preserving culture. However, that sure doesn't mean that MMA is "dumbing down" of martial arts. Just because people like to re-enact Civil War battles for cultural reasons doesn't somehow make the use of modern warfare methods dumbing down.

[chusauli]

Nothing wrong with preserving culture. However, that sure doesn't mean that MMA is "dumbing down" of martial arts. Just because people like to re-enact Civil War battles for cultural reasons doesn't somehow make the use of modern warfare methods dumbing down.

It wasn't my quote - it was Gene Ching's.

[Hendrik]

all you have done is use some other peoples studies

That is an assumption.



and told people without a degree you won't discuss it.

That too never happen.



Jing, how many people translate that into force vectors. I thought it meant power?

Because they dont know it and dont have it.
and
You could thought as you like but it is not what you think.


Lik is force. Jing is Lik with a direction. Lik is a scalar quantity. Jing is a vector quantity.
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/1dkin/u1l1b.cfm

Thus when describe Jing, Vector must be used.





What we are saying there is a big difference between sounding like a taoist monk and being a science professor.

To manifest Jing doesnt matter if a taoist monk or a science professor, all have to obey the law of nature.




I don't need a formula just a dumbed down version would be great.

if that is the case and possible, look at the world how come not too many people can do it?

[Hendrik]

I agree. If it is a "proper process" it can be mapped. It should be definable and repeatable. Of course in the end, the level of skill attained is down to the individual.


When the reality is Vector Quantity in nature, then one cannot use Scalar quantity to describe it.

A proper process of Jing cannot be mapped with a scalar quantity, that is certain.


The only way it can be mapped is via vector quantity field, because only there it could be well define and repeatable.

[shawchemical]

Degree is a training which influence how one think.
With a certain degree one think a certain way.

If one like to discuss thing in/with a scientific way then one needs to follow the basic of that field.

Such as: if one like to use mechanics or physics then force vector is in avoidable. Because force vectors is the basic building blocks of mechanics or physics.







Taji, Hsing Yi, YI Chuan and other TCMA IMA has used term Jin or Force Vectors, if translate in English to the field of physics and mechanics, to describe the phenomenon of power generation/ handling for hundreds of years and to describe proven process based on these description to synthesis power generation/handling.

The exact term : six directional/dimensional force vectors is not a new term at all for TCMA IMA. thus, for anyone who study , know, and capable to fajin this is the basic of the basic.

Is is real strange here is some always complain about other holding secret.....etc.
However, when real things is introduce using solid basic physics description. All type of complain arise.

Didnt everyone want to go Scientific? Didnt everyone want to know what it is with the common scientific ground? So what is the point to complain on giving you what you asking for?
What is the point to complain when details are describe in the area which you have no experience with and thus do not appreciate why it is there?

I hope some could be smarter instead of trying to proof how smart they are but evidence show they are clueless of the topic.





Science is just a tool to describe natural phenomenon.
Natural phenomenon exist with or without science.

As above, I am trying to do you all a favor to give you insight into what is behind the close door with today's physics and mechanics, as you ask for.

Now, with all these, It is much easier to no longer provide any further information and let you do what you all like. Because your action show that it is not the topic and communication via physics or mechancis you are looking for.

No.

A degree is simply proof that you know how to learn.

YOu don't follow the scientific method of presenting an argument because you fail to provide one shred of evidence to support each of your farcical claims, and you still claim to be using this method.

There's no point doing an experiment unless you can disseminate the observations you made and the conclusions you reached in an easy to digest manner. Jargon that does little but make yourself seem like a wanker with a superior attitude is unhelpful in discussing these things.

[Hendrik]

How does using this term actual help us 'normal folk' understand a very simple concept? Does the 6 DFV relate directly to the human body as the 6 harmonies do?

The concept is simple only after one has handle on it.

the 6DFV is plain English using Physics definition. thus dont confuse yourself with other things.

and it is nothing to do with 'normal folk' it only got to do with not get trap in one's own blind spot and thinking or assume or speculate what it is not.

For example, Jing is a vector quantity which means force with a direction, if one keep want to argue that a scalar quantity can describe vector quantity and called I am complicated things with a complicated term, there is nothing I can do because it is a Vector quantity not a scalar quantity. and also that tell me you have dont know what jing is so what to argue? It is easier for me to retire from this topic. take a rest.


The most difficult and illusive of Jing cultivation is that it is a Vectors quantity but can emit in all direction, thus many thoughts it is a scalar quantity. and that is the dead trap of in capable to handle the jing.

[Hendrik]

No.

A degree is simply proof that you know how to learn.

YOu don't follow the scientific method of presenting an argument because you fail to provide one shred of evidence to support each of your farcical claims, and you still claim to be using this method.

There's no point doing an experiment unless you can disseminate the observations you made and the conclusions you reached in an easy to digest manner. Jargon that does little but make yourself seem like a wanker with a superior attitude is unhelpful in discussing these things.



Great opinion, and I leave it for you to enlightent every one on the subject your way.
BTW : first of all, make sure you settle if Jing is a scalar or vector quantity.




and what's wrong with



Degree is a training which influence how one think.
With a certain degree one think a certain way. ?


Will an Engineer think the same way with a Lawyer, A MD and a fine art major facing an issue?

[Hendrik]

Fa jing means "issuing power".
How one DOES it is what makes on system distinct from another.
Boxers "issue power", wrestlers "issue power", powerlifters "issue power", they all do it in different ways for their different goals.


Since you keep complaining my using of the six directional Force vectors to discuss Jing is too complex.

So is JIng a scalar quantity or a Vector quantity?

[shawchemical]

Great opinion, and I leave it for you to enlightent every one on the subject your way.
BTW : first of all, make sure you settle if Jing is a scalar or vector quantity.




and what's wrong with

?


Will an Engineer think the same way with a Lawyer, A MD and a fine art major facing an issue?

It is very possible that a lawyer will think the same way as an engineer.

Here you go again with the jargon which does nothing but confuse the issue.

Is the end a set up for a punch line??

You think you're being clear, but you're not. Understanding what you're trying to say is like trying to make sense of the bible. Full of idiotic and inept metaphors and full of contradictions in each new statement.

[shawchemical]

Since you keep complaining my using of the six directional Force vectors to discuss Jing is too complex.

So is JIng a scalar quantity or a Vector quantity?

The problem is you never say anything about anything except for name and jargon dropping which does little to get your point across.

[Hendrik]

It is very possible that a lawyer will think the same way as an engineer.


What is the possibility statically? Do you have scientific study data on their mind pattern?





Here you go again with the jargon which does nothing but confuse the issue.

It is another jargon to confuse the issue or clarify that you dont based your thinking with scientific data and facts?





You think you're being clear, but you're not. Understanding what you're trying to say is like trying to make sense of the bible. Full of idiotic and inept metaphors and full of contradictions in each new statement.

you sure can make any comment you like to.
But your off focus from the topic and personal attack also shows your lack in the understanding of the topic isnt it.

[Hendrik]

The problem is you never say anything about anything except for name and jargon dropping which does little to get your point across.


Isnt it using Force Vectors to communicate and describe and define Jing the first step and important mile stone which set the foundation clearly and precisely in a scientific way?

So, how is your comment applicable ?

[Knifefighter]

Isnt it using Force Vectors to communicate and describe and define Jing the first step and important mile stone which set the foundation clearly and precisely in a scientific way?

How are vector addition and vector resolution applied in the determination of jing?

How are you performing your force analysis?

How are you taking into consideration the force/velocity curve of human muscle contraction?

How are you testing for the addition of eccentric contraction and elastic energy storage into your force determinations?

At which angles are you measuring rotary forces?

[k gledhill]

How are vector addition and vector resolution applied in the determination of jing?

How are you performing your force analysis?

How are you taking into consideration the force/velocity curve of human muscle contraction?

How are you testing for the addition of eccentric contraction and elastic energy storage into your force determinations?

At which angles are you measuring rotary forces?

I was just about to ask H the same things ! ...:D how about a singing reply Hendrik, for old times sake ?

[Hendrik]

How are vector addition and vector resolution applied in the determination of jing?

How are you performing your force analysis?

How are you taking into consideration the force/velocity curve of human muscle contraction?

How are you testing for the addition of eccentric contraction and elastic energy storage into your force determinations?

At which angles are you measuring rotary forces?


I am still waiting for those scientific experts here who claim using force vectors is too complex to explain me is Jing a scalar or vector quantity first.

and also before asking me all the above, what is Jing? a vector quantity or scalar quantity?

[Knifefighter]

I am still waiting for those scientific experts here who claim using force vectors is too complex to explain me is Jing a scalar or vector quantity first.

and also before asking me all the above, what is Jing? a vector quantity or scalar quantity?

All forces are vectors. They have direction as well as magnitude.

[Hendrik]

I was just about to ask H the same things ! ...:D how about a singing reply Hendrik, for old times sake ?

Let's solve the basic of is jing a vector quantity or a scalar quantity first.

[Hendrik]

All forces are vectors. They have direction as well as magnitude.

Great!

So we know, it is a vector quantity. and using the six directional force vectors to describe Jing is proper.

Does everyone agree on this?

[Knifefighter]

Great!

So we know, it is a vector quantity. and using the six directional force vectors to describe Jing is proper.

Does everyone agree on this?

Not necessarily. How are you determining there are six force vectors?

[Hendrik]

Not necessarily. How are you determining there are six force vectors?


Since you state that force has direction and magnitude, then you agree Force is a vector quantity.



Let's take a look at a 3 Dimensional Cartesian coordinate,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate_system

we know in the 3 dimensional cartesian coordinate we have 3 axes namely the X, Y, Z.

Within every axes there are two directions, namely the positive direction and negative direction, or as we applied classical mechanics, Newton's third law states that forces occur in pairs, one called the Action and the other the Reaction.


So 3 axes and every axes has two directions/ action-reaction, that tell us there are six components in total.

Thus, if we would like to describe a force vector in a 3 Dimensional space at any one instant.

We can resolution this force vector into the six components.

That is where the six directional/dimensional force vectors from.

[Wayfaring]

Great!

So we know, it is a vector quantity. and using the six directional force vectors to describe Jing is proper.

Does everyone agree on this?

Hmmm, vectors. Here's a writeup:
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/vectors/u3l1a.cfm

So vectors have 2 characteristics - direction, and magnitude. The magnitude can be represented by what kind of vector you are discussing. So here if you are describing "force vectors", that indicates that the 2 characteristics are magnitude of force and direction.

"using six directional force vectors to describe Jing is proper".

IMO the different unknowns in this statement which need to be worked out:

1) 6 directional vectors - why 6, not 1,2, 4, 10, 12, 108? resolved
2) force magnitude - mass, mass x acceleration have measurable force magnitude. What is the measurement of Jing as a force magnitude and how can it be duplicated in a scientific environment?
3) Proper - meaning conventional? I haven't heard of this before. If there are peer-reviewed journal references, then it could be shown to be conventional or proper. Outside of that it is a theory, right?
4) What are the rotational components? Changes over time, such as are introduced in differential equations. A force along a curve introduces another dimension to consider in force vectors, and that is time. How do we model this?

One thing to keep in mind about vectors, including force vectors. They are a mental model to calculate and understand Newtonian physics. These principles don't seem to hold up in certain environments, such as down at the atomic levels, or in other environments, such as approaching the speed of light. So one must also discuss the boundaries of the mental model here.

So these are a few obstacles to overcome to truly discuss the energies concept of classical CMA and "jing" in a modern physics sense.

Anyone else agree?

[Wayfaring]

That is where the six directional force vectors from.

OK - so +/- x, +/-y, +/-z. From that perspective your model includes 3 dimensional space from a physics perspective. That's #1 on my considerations.

[Hendrik]

OK - so +/- x, +/-y, +/-z. From that perspective your model includes 3 dimensional space from a physics perspective. That's #1 on my considerations.

Yup, Exactly.

Newton's third law states that forces occur in pairs, one called the Action and the other the Reaction. so there is not 1,2, 4, 10, 12, 108, but exactly 6.

Nothing mysterious at all.




Now, if we take a look at the so called sinking.

Will the so called sinking be able cover/resolution all type of force vector as in six directional force vectors in a 3 dimensional space at any one instant? if not then the so called sinking is partial or in adequate.




also take a look at the so called forward pressing which lots of people preaching in WCK while doing YJKYM.

Is this Forward pressing type of YJKYM a balance system or a over compensated system? A balance system means all the six components has almost equal magnitude. While an over compensated system means the amplitude of some component within the six components is at imbalance and required a compensation from other force vectors.

Knowing if the system is balance or not know the system's dynamic characteristics or strength/weakness.


Thus, using the six directional force vectors one could "read" the system's characteristics, and also if the reaction force is not considered while issuing the action force then we know that system or power generation is problematic.

[Wayfaring]

Now, if we take a look at the so called sinking.

Will the so called sinking be able cover/resolution all type of force vector as in six directional force vectors in a 3 dimensional space at any one instant? if not then the so called sinking is partial or in adequate.

I think we're getting away from your physics model here.

But to discuss from only a WCK perspective, from what I have been taught, there is not just sinking, but sink/uproot as one pair, push/pull as another pair, and open/close as a third pair of energies.

Is that the main point of what you're getting at? Do we want to try and cover this in a physics model as well?

[Hendrik]

I think we're getting away from your physics model here.

But to discuss from only a WCK perspective, from what I have been taught, there is not just sinking, but sink/uproot as one pair, push/pull as another pair, and open/close as a third pair of energies.

Is that the main point of what you're getting at? Do we want to try and cover this in a physics model as well?




1, What I am getting at is the model is an analysis tool and synthesis tool.
the physics model needs to be able to cover all aspect of the force vectors at any one instant of time within the 3 D space for both power generation or sustain or fajing or huajing....etc. If it cant cover it then the model is useless.


2, to answer the unknowns in your previous post, using your WCK perspective, since different lineage have different perspective; the so call sinking/ uproot pair, push/pull pair , open/close pair if exist at the same instant within the 3 D space.
then, at that particular instant within the 3 D space, the vector addition/combination of these 3 pairs or six force vectors become a resultant/net force vector. That is the Jing one issue or fa. So, that is fajing.

As for the changes over time, as soon as one take care of the every instant that is adequate; mind is non real time, using it to process changes over time information is a mess. it is just a first order model to aid training direction. and also human will not operate in sub-atomic level or approach the speed of light. IMHO.

Again, if one control the three pair above to get a resultant force with the direction and magnitude one intended for a certain purpose then that is fajin.


3, as the topic of this thread is Hip Movement so what is that Hip Movement contribute to power generation, dynamic structure stability? use the six directional force vectors model and see for yourself.


4, Again, I dont invent this model, the TCMA IMA ancestors of mine have these stuffs. I am just share it. at first I also ask why is it six? and was explain. and then I remember Newton's third law, that makes me convince the old ancestors knows lots of stuffs in depth eventhough they dont have science as we do.

So what is so mysterious on fajing? it is just a game to use the most effective efficient ease way of generating useful resultant force, what mysterious? NONE.

[Hendrik]

I was just about to ask H the same things ! ...:D how about a singing reply Hendrik, for old times sake ?

ok, after all the force vectors.....

To answer your questions. What the heck do you think you are doing in Chi Sau practice? Think!

this is the song for you. the song I sing to the WCK ancestors on board the red boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00shaEWlDzU&feature=related


Let you guys discuss. I am retiring.

[Knifefighter]

So 3 axes and every axes has two directions/ action-reaction, that tell us there are six components in total.

Thus, if we would like to describe a force vector in a 3 Dimensional space at any one instant.

We can resolution this force vector into the six components.

That is where the six directional/dimensional force vectors from.

Wrong...

There are 10 articulations in the body that make major contributions to force. There are also additional articulations that make more minor force production contributions. Each of these articulations have multiple ranges of motion. Each of these ranges of motion have multiple force vectors. The total force vectors are multiples of these.

Here is a diagram of the force vectors of a simple knee flexion:

http://www.exrx.net/Images/Mechanics/LegCurlKneeVectors.gif

As you can see, there have to be many more than six force vectors at work in multi-joint power production.

[Hendrik]

Wrong...

There are 10 articulations in the body that make major contributions to force. There are also additional articulations that make more minor force production contributions. Each of these articulations have have multiple ranges of motion. Each of these ranges of motion have multiple force vectors. The total force vectors are multiples of these.

Here is a diagram of the force vectors of a simple knee flexion:
http://www.exrx.net/Images/Mechanics/LegCurlKneeVectors.gif



OK.


look at the diagram of the force vectors you post,

It is a 2 D and 4 force vectors based ( 2 D with an action and reaction force pair for each dimension satisfing Newton's third law)

If it is the real world which is a 3 Dimensional in nature instead of 2 Dimensional,
how many force vectors one needs to use to describe the force vectors at that particular point at an instant? 6.

[Hendrik]

Knifefighter,

Could you please post back your force vectors diagram so that others could see what is it? and follow my answer to your post before you change the diagram?

[Knifefighter]

OK.


look at the diagram of the force vectors you post,

It is a 2 D and 4 force vectors based ( 2 D with an action and reaction force pair for each dimension satisfing Newton's third law)

If it is real world which is a 3 D in nature instead of 2 D, how many force vectors one needs to use at an instant to describe the force vectors at that particular point? 6.

You are attempting to compare vector dimension with space dimension. Vector dimension is completely different. That is why vector space is labeled as having Hamel dimension to distinguish it from spatial dimension. The dimension theorem for vector spaces states that a vector space may have an infinite number of dimensions. Force vectors are not limited to 3 dimensions.

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter,

Could you please post back your force vectors diagram so that others could see what is it? and follow my answer to your post before you change the diagram?

Interesting...somebody hacked the site.

Either that or an administrator doesn't like you.

[Hendrik]

You are attempting to compare vector dimension with space dimension. Vector dimension is completely different. That is why vector space is labeled as having Hamel dimension to distinguish it from spatial dimension.

The dimension theorem for vector spaces states that a vector space may have an infinite number of dimensions.

Force vectors are not limited to 3 dimensions.




1,

anyone can trace my previous post and see I have never ever attemped to compare vector dimension with space dimension.

The bottom line is simply asking the question of how many vector components could adequately describe the force in a 3 dimensional physical world?

The answer is based on 3 Dimensional Cartesian coordinate and Newton's 3rd law, 6 basic force vectors are needed.




2, Now you brought up.


The dimension theorem for vector spaces states that a vector space may have an infinite number of dimensions. Force vectors are not limited to 3 dimensions.

Isnt that contradict to your usual practice to go beyond the human physical 3 Dimensional reality into abstract to argue when I am focus on basic science and Newton's law.

[Hendrik]

Interesting...somebody hacked the site.

Either that or an administrator doesn't like you.


recover the diagram or not It doesnt matter.
not a concern for me at all.

One win, win as a gentlemen.
One lost, lost as a gentlemen.

That is the teaching of Moduk. and that is the path of TCMA IMA.

[CFT]

I can see the diagram KF posted.

Whatever the direction of the force in 3D, you can resolve it into its XYZ components.

[LoneTiger108]

I can see the diagram KF posted.

So can I! At least there is a FIRST attempt on this thread to actually apply all the scientific chatter with the human body!! Even if it is a pic of the knee and not the hip. :o

FWIW The main 6 joints I mentioned way way back are in pairs and this is the basis of the 6 harmonies being applied into the Martial Arts. Training and being able to use all joints in unison will definitely produce a 'force'.

I'll leave the calculations to you guys...

[CFT]

6 joints: ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist
Known as Luk Hup in Cantonese, variously translated as "6 Harmonies", "6 Unions".

Isn't this really what some would call the "kinetic chain", using more Western terminology?

I have not been formally shown any of this, but from self observation when punching against a "stationary" object, e.g. wallbag, post, etc.

1) You want to maintain balance/posture at point of impact so you don't topple over like a domino (top end goes first). So that reaction force from the impact is "channelled" back down through your body into your stance/into the ground.

I think the elbow down way of Wing Chun punching aids this.

2) You have to "load the joints" prior to punching. In solo practice this means "sitting" in your stance so that you place your hamstring and calf muscles in compression. In the upper arm the bicep/tricep muscle pairing causes acceleration of the fist, but IMO the main power comes from the lower body. In partner practice/sparring this is where the "dap" or "joining" idea comes in. Join with the force (no Star Wars jokes please) so that it loads your muscles/structure.

3) How much power you can deliver comes through timing of the contraction/extension of the various parts (muscles). IMO you want to arrive all at once. I know some people like to think of it as a wave, from the feet up. I guess that is OK since it may be a good mental method, and in actuality the time difference may not be significant in practice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's like saying staying with swimming is not a good place to stay if you want to be a good swimmer.


What MMA did, was put the martial back into martial arts.

I agree, but for many the MA are a way of life.
A better analogy would be to say that water polo is the "dumbing down" of swimming.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am still waiting for those scientific experts here who claim using force vectors is too complex to explain me is Jing a scalar or vector quantity first.

and also before asking me all the above, what is Jing? a vector quantity or scalar quantity?

Evasive as usual, well done !

[sanjuro_ronin]

All this reminds me of how some people try to use physics to justify their claim that size doesn't matter in MA when they pull out the F=MA or the EK=1/2MC2

[CFT]

That would be F = MA

But yes, "M" is a factor.
You try to use skill to overcome size, height, reach. But I firmly believe that sometimes the difference it too much to bridge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That would be F = MA

But yes, "M" is a factor.
You try to use skill to overcome size, height, reach. But I firmly believe that sometimes the difference it too much to bridge.

The point is that not only is it just ONE of the MANY factors, every physics aspect must be applied in relation to biomechanics.
A .22 caliber bullet has more energy than 10-lb sledge hammer going 30 mph, but the impact force of the hammer is greater, hence the hammer has MORE stopping force and that is what is more applicable to "blunt impact" trauma, ie: strikes

[Knifefighter]

I can see the diagram KF posted.


Interesting that the pic is back up now... site hack, admin goofing around, or maybe something to do with bandwidth theft.

[Knifefighter]

Hendrik, I noticed you never answered my questions:

How are vector addition and vector resolution applied in your determination of jing?

How are you performing your force analysis?

How are you taking into consideration the force/velocity curve of human muscle contraction?

How are you testing for the addition of eccentric contraction and elastic energy storage into your force determinations?

At which angles are you measuring rotary forces?

Oh, yeah, and which force production are you measuring, strength or power?

[kung fu fighter]

Hey Robert,



"Nim Lik" is the "power of intention" - you control your intent to guide your "energy" and resources (body, alignment, mass, etc.) to a particular area. This does not mean Nim Lik = Hua Jing (Faa Ging). Hua Jing is letting go, allowing the opponent's force to dissolve into nothingness, into the body, or into timing where a load is taken, given up, dropped, displaced, or moved elsewhere.

Would you say that if one was to use the contact point of the bridge to change the direction of the opponent's attacking vector according to timing without alerting him be considered hua jing?

Does hua jing on the recieving end feels like you've been lead into emptyness and uprooted similar to the effect of being sucked in by a vacuum.

Can you give an example of a bridge technique using hua jing to dissolve?

[Wayfaring]

1, What I am getting at is the model is an analysis tool and synthesis tool.
the physics model needs to be able to cover all aspect of the force vectors at any one instant of time within the 3 D space for both power generation or sustain or fajing or huajing....etc. If it cant cover it then the model is useless.


Understand your intent. IMO models don't typically cover ALL aspects of what they are modeling, but are simpler abstractions of the real environment which are supposed to make the real environment easier to understand. That's their value. If we understand where their limitations are then we can see where they are useful and where they are useless.



2, to answer the unknowns in your previous post, using your WCK perspective, since different lineage have different perspective; the so call sinking/ uproot pair, push/pull pair , open/close pair if exist at the same instant within the 3 D space.
then, at that particular instant within the 3 D space, the vector addition/combination of these 3 pairs or six force vectors become a resultant/net force vector. That is the Jing one issue or fa. So, that is fajing.

I can see the POTENTIAL for 6 force vectors at a given instant. However, usually it's only one that's predominate due to the immediate need.



As for the changes over time, as soon as one take care of the every instant that is adequate; mind is non real time, using it to process changes over time information is a mess. it is just a first order model to aid training direction. and also human will not operate in sub-atomic level or approach the speed of light. IMHO.

Agreed on sub-atomic and speed of light - just using those to express model limits.

On changes over time, that IMO is where the model is inadequate. Force vectors which are modeled as straight aren't so good when applying them to human motion which is predominately curvelinear. KF's diagram illustrates this as all those different vectors apply through a short range of motion with the knee.



Again, if one control the three pair above to get a resultant force with the direction and magnitude one intended for a certain purpose then that is fajin.

I think what you are saying WCK wise is that to explain fajing it is the appropriate energy applied in one or a number of 6 directions to control your space. I would agree with that. I think the Newtonian physics force vector model is not adequate to model it simply enough to be helpful to our understanding.



3, as the topic of this thread is Hip Movement so what is that Hip Movement contribute to power generation, dynamic structure stability? use the six directional force vectors model and see for yourself.

Sure - hips are key to movement, it's important to be able to move them in 3D space, not just sinking, and the correct movement generates power and contributes to stability. You can see this with hip movements on any skilled fighter from a greco roman wrestler to a boxer. This is not unique to WCK. For example, one way to describe a stable dynamic structure would be a wrestler "having a good base".



4, Again, I dont invent this model, the TCMA IMA ancestors of mine have these stuffs. I am just share it. at first I also ask why is it six? and was explain. and then I remember Newton's third law, that makes me convince the old ancestors knows lots of stuffs in depth eventhough they dont have science as we do.

Sure - TCMA IMA ancestors have a way of teaching this to help cultivate power generation and a stable dynamic structure. I'll grant that many of them have figured out some of that from a body movement perspective. And as we see with our science models they are not always an advantage, are they?

One thing the TCMA IMA ancestors don't seem to have succeeded in doing very much of is translating all this into a realistic fighting environment, however. Most of what I have seen there gravitate more towards the "demo" type of display as opposed to the "fighting" type of display.



So what is so mysterious on fajing? it is just a game to use the most effective efficient ease way of generating useful resultant force, what mysterious? NONE.

I agree. Nothing so mysterious.

Good hip movement is key to producing power and stability in all martial endeavors, from striking to grappling. Now the HOW of doing that is where the skill is developed.

[Wayfaring]

Gene Ching once mentioned to me that MMA was the "dumbing down of martial arts", and to a degree, there is some truth in that.
You know from my perspective it's not a bad thing to have the understanding of a skill in your body and hands as opposed to grandiose ideas in the brain and no skill in the body or hands.

Tell Gene maybe he needs to get a little bit dumber.

[LoneTiger108]

6 joints: ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist
Known as Luk Hup in Cantonese, variously translated as "6 Harmonies", "6 Unions".

Isn't this really what some would call the "kinetic chain", using more Western terminology?

I have not been formally shown any of this, but from self observation when punching against a "stationary" object, e.g. wallbag, post, etc.

1) You want to maintain balance/posture at point of impact so you don't topple over like a domino (top end goes first). So that reaction force from the impact is "channelled" back down through your body into your stance/into the ground.

I think the elbow down way of Wing Chun punching aids this.

2) You have to "load the joints" prior to punching. In solo practice this means "sitting" in your stance so that you place your hamstring and calf muscles in compression. In the upper arm the bicep/tricep muscle pairing causes acceleration of the fist, but IMO the main power comes from the lower body. In partner practice/sparring this is where the "dap" or "joining" idea comes in. Join with the force (no Star Wars jokes please) so that it loads your muscles/structure.

3) How much power you can deliver comes through timing of the contraction/extension of the various parts (muscles). IMO you want to arrive all at once. I know some people like to think of it as a wave, from the feet up. I guess that is OK since it may be a good mental method, and in actuality the time difference may not be significant in practice.

Yep! That's the luk hup I know. ;)

Now pair them up and add the spine and you will have 13 areas within the body that help produce force. And that's 13 areas to search/strike/manipulate to weaken your opponents force!

Not sure of the 'kinetic' chain thing though, but it's good to hear others views and use of language. That's why I feel that Hendrik is touchuing on this more classical view within a modern scientific context. That's inspiring to be honest!

FWIW I was taught this, among many other ideas that help to train a person in a step-by-step manner. The expression of luk hup within the Wing Chun style is also connected to the interactive practises, like chisau/looksau etc and it also relates directly to form practice.

[Hendrik]

On changes over time, that IMO is where the model is inadequate.

Force vectors which are modeled as straight aren't so good when applying them to human motion which is predominately curvelinear.

KF's diagram illustrates this as all those different vectors apply through a short range of motion with the knee.


That is true if it is use as you mention.

That also brought up a TCMA IMA training which said the physical shape is curve but the jing is straight. So the bottom line is, if one focus on the resultant force result from the curve shape; it is always result into a "straight" resultant force at any instant.

The trajectory over time might be curve but at every one instant the force vectors is straight and the concept is to be able to handle every instant is handling the whole trajectory.







One thing the TCMA IMA ancestors don't seem to have succeeded in doing very much of is translating all this into a realistic fighting environment, however. Most of what I have seen there gravitate more towards the "demo" type of display as opposed to the "fighting" type of display.

IMHO, that depend on who you meet.

In my experience, the true TCMA IMA I have known is extremely no nonsense people because they strongly follow the law of cause and effect. Cultivation needs to see result or how good is the Kung Fatt or Training technology. most are not willing to talk about fighting because they dont like to create fighting karma with their mind which they think it is waste of their life force. if they create it in their mind they have to undo it. That waste life force, if it was not undo one will live like an animal burning in that desiring control, survival, and approval or angry state.

from my experience, they sure know to handle every details they train for and know the details and the potential or power generate. That is what I call true TCMA IMA ; they exist but have a different value and purpose in living a life then most especially to the western model of fighting.

it certainly not some demonstrators or morning taiji players or taiji sifu who knows only doing the form.

[Hendrik]

As in everything, first one needs to agree on the basic model to a certain degree. Upto now I am not even sure this is agree upon. so I let you guys come up with your models.

For those who accepted the six directional force vectors model, I have post some example they can think about it. It might not cover all you mention here but some part of it has been touch.

In the mean time I take a rest.





Hendrik, I noticed you never answered my questions:

How are vector addition and vector resolution applied in your determination of jing?

How are you performing your force analysis?

How are you taking into consideration the force/velocity curve of human muscle contraction?

How are you testing for the addition of eccentric contraction and elastic energy storage into your force determinations?

At which angles are you measuring rotary forces?

Oh, yeah, and which force production are you measuring, strength or power?

[chusauli]

Hey Robert,

Would you say that if one was to use the contact point of the bridge to change the direction of the opponent's attacking vector according to timing without alerting him be considered hua jing?

KFF, What is your experience? You already know, so you don't need my verification...

That is one way...


Does hua jing on the recieving end feels like you've been lead into emptyness and uprooted similar to the effect of being sucked in by a vacuum.

That is one way, also...but you already know...


Can you give an example of a bridge technique using hua jing to dissolve?

How about Tan Sao to an oncoming punch?

[Wayfaring]

That is true if it is use as you mention.

That also brought up a TCMA IMA training which said the physical shape is curve but the jing is straight. So the bottom line is, if one focus on the resultant force result from the curve shape; it is always result into a "straight" resultant force at any instant.

The trajectory over time might be curve but at every one instant the force vectors is straight and the concept is to be able to handle every instant is handling the whole trajectory.

OK - see your point here. Energies taught are taught as being "on/off" or "0/1". So that lends to dealing with the immediate instant. In reality though, it's just a model - if you slow a motion down with a movie camera, even if the concept of jing is straight the actual physical movement involved is a curve.



IMHO, that depend on who you meet.

In my experience, the true TCMA IMA I have known is extremely no nonsense people because they strongly follow the law of cause and effect. Cultivation needs to see result or how good is the Kung Fatt or Training technology. most are not willing to talk about fighting because they dont like to create fighting karma with their mind which they think it is waste of their life force. if they create it in their mind they have to undo it. That waste life force, if it was not undo one will live like an animal burning in that desiring control, survival, and approval or angry state.

from my experience, they sure know to handle every details they train for and know the details and the potential or power generate. That is what I call true TCMA IMA ; they exist but have a different value and purpose in living a life then most especially to the western model of fighting.

it certainly not some demonstrators or morning taiji players or taiji sifu who knows only doing the form.

I think I've met maybe 1 or 2 people like this. Most aren't like this at all. I kind of approach things from the other end - the harder fight training leading to the serenity - but to each his own path.

[kung fu fighter]

KFF, What is your experience? You already know, so you don't need my verification...

That is one way...

That is one way, also...but you already know...

How about Tan Sao to an oncoming punch?

Thanks again Robert for the confirmation!

It really helped me to get a better perspective of Hendrik's posts. I truely believe if one understand this skill, he is able to transcend techniques and can make any technique work or even create new techniques on the spot in the flow of things to fit the situation if that was possible. I personnally feel this skill is behond any system. And can unlock one's own creativity therefore liberating one from any system. I like to think of systems as the science of fighting, where one learns all the theory/concepts and laws of that perticular system. Once the laws of that perticular system is internalized one can operate behond the laws of the system and can create a master piece spontaneously like any other artist.

[chusauli]

Yep! That's the luk hup I know. ;)

Now pair them up and add the spine and you will have 13 areas within the body that help produce force. And that's 13 areas to search/strike/manipulate to weaken your opponents force!

Not sure of the 'kinetic' chain thing though, but it's good to hear others views and use of language. That's why I feel that Hendrik is touchuing on this more classical view within a modern scientific context. That's inspiring to be honest!

FWIW I was taught this, among many other ideas that help to train a person in a step-by-step manner. The expression of luk hup within the Wing Chun style is also connected to the interactive practises, like chisau/looksau etc and it also relates directly to form practice.


Spencer, very good. In addition to the 13 areas, you can store and release partial power in parts of the body, allowing you to dissolve some of the opponent's force in different parts of body, further controlling them, and allowing you to strike at will. The classical 6 harmonies (although what you describe above are the external San He/Sam Hop - you are missing the 3 internal harmonies aka Nei San He/Noi Sam Hop...)

Please don't confuse Liu He/Luk Hop with Liu Jing or Liu Li (6 Powers) - the terminology is different - they are the up/down, left right and forward/backward "powers". These allow you to control and line up vector forces which can be spirals, straight, circular, bouncing, etc.

[chusauli]

Thanks again Robert for the confirmation!

It really helped me to get a better perspective of Hendrik's posts. I truely believe if one understand this skill, he is able to transcend techniques and can make any technique work or even create new techniques on the spot in the flow of things to fit the situation if that was possible. I personnally feel this skill is behond any system. And can unlock one's own creativity therefore liberating one from any system. I like to think of systems as the science of fighting, where one learns all the theory/concepts and laws of that perticular system. Once the laws of that perticular system is internalized one can operate behond the laws of the system and can create a master piece spontaneously like any other artist.

This skill is part of all the Chinese martial arts. There is no end to cultivating this skill.

[Hendrik]

Please don't confuse Liu He/Luk Hop with Liu Jing or Liu Li (6 Powers) - the terminology is different - they are the up/down, left right and forward/backward "powers". These allow you to control and line up vector forces which can be spirals, straight, circular, bouncing, etc.



Robert,


Just some thoughts.


Some one asking about


How are vector addition and vector resolution applied in your determination of jing?
How are you performing your force analysis?
How are you taking into consideration the force/velocity curve of human muscle contraction?


For me, for a serious WCner, with the six directional force vectors model I have present, one will right away know why is there such thing as Triangle shape, Huen.....etc in WCK structure.
The answer is right in front of the eyes but some do not see it.

IE: isnt it Triangle is a good Vector resolution tool?


IMHO, most people here are Electic or mma who doenst really do WCK.
Some might do WCK but doesnt know the Kuen Choong and thus confuse between sinking of other art and reel silk from other art to WCK's comes accept goes return... style/signature.


Not to mention, it is almost a religion or believe that WCK is just training on how to applied the tan bong fok.
That is very partial understand of what is WC Kung Fu.



As you know, There are two components in a TCMA, and they are the Tee (body of the art) and Young (applications of the art).

and, The effective of the application of the art depend on the cultivation of the Tee.
IE: without a WC body one cant do the application right.

Thus, it said, Training the Kuen (applications) not training the kung( body of the art), when one get old one got nothing.

What that means is without cultivate the Body of the art, then the application will not be effective and effective of application degrade as aging.


As you know, Kung Fu is not just spend time to know how to apply Tan Bong Fook...doing drill and making post. Spending time doing those things are good but that is not get one to be able to go beyond one's innertial physical ability. the reality is simply an un train/evolve body cant get one what is needed beyond the general innertial.




So,
Kung Fu means fine tuning the application and Evolving the body/mind to support the style of the art.

Thus, WC Kung Fu means fine tuning the WC style application and Evolving one's body/mind to support the WC style application.

As an example, Some said force vector are straight and body is curve...etc.
Sure, that is true as a generalization. But have one take a close look how the force vector for a well train WCner with a good structure such as the triangle structure....etc? it is force vector at the contact point not straight even in a flowing dynamic situation?


So, in general, the Evolving one's body/mind to support the WC style application is a missing equation today.


As you know, for Those who has this body/mind evolving training or Kung,
once they learns the 6 directional force vectors model they know WCK triangle and other structure is for transformation or force vectors resolution...etc.

also
they know Chi sau cultivation is for evolve the body/mind to handle


How are you performing your force analysis?
How are you taking into consideration the force/velocity curve of human muscle contraction?

using direct sensory sensing by passing the mind, since the mind is extremely unreliable, non real time, and slow.




As you know, it is just this simple:

know the six directional force vectors, cultivate the body/mind evolution so that the body/mind/sensing could support and deliver the type of force vectors result one needs when a certain WCK application is evoke.




Without the above understanding, it is non sense to talk about structure and dynamic structure and Jing and ......


Thus, WCK is a ONE PIECE holistic art.

it is not a mix pie which is full of a piece here and a piece there but a total mess;

such as when the Hung Gar people shows their rooting, wcner said " Oh I have that too." when the Taiji people shows their reel silk, and rotating hip movement, wcner said " Oh, I do that too." ...." I can add in BJJ too"..... on and on and on. but always dont know and not sure what is WCK.


I always like to sing this song to the WCK ancestors.

...how you tried to set them free.
They would not listen
they did not know how
perhaps they'll listen now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dipFMJckZOM

just some thoughts.

[Hendrik]

So, to answer the hip movement question are:

What type of Resultant Force Vector in a 3 D space is one generating?

and how effective is that hip movement?
(meaning: Since as the Newton's 3 law said every force comes with a action and reaction force pair how effective is the end result interm of direction and magnitude by doing this hip movement?)





Hello,

This is mainly for Robert and Hendrick and Andreas if he is on the board.

I have been training in American Kunto Silat and they use a very interesting Hip Rotation to generate power. I do not see any reason to be unable to use this same dynamic with my Wing Chun.

After reading someone post about Andreas and Hendrick using they hip gyrations (akin to love making) I was curious and wanted to see if I could learn move about how they are using the hips.

I would really prefer to keep this discussion on tact and not diverge to other things or name calling etc. If that happens I will delete the thread.

Robert, Hendrick, Adreas, feel free to PM or contact me off line to discuss.

[Hendrik]

WCK ancestors know what they are talking:

In Yik Kam SLT kuen kuit, it doesnt qoute the Newton 3rd law but it says

左脚跘出有善惡,
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and countering effect.

six force vectors, 3 Dimension + aiding and countering, it exists in 1800 or at the time SLT is created. Nothing mysterious. it is not those teaching of " oh keep training you will know. oh just do as what sifu sez...." nope.

[chusauli]

Hendrik,

Yes, the combining of other systems makes WCK lost.

I wholeheartedly agree, it is not about adding in other systems into WCK, but how to use the WCK mechanics, with the WCK Faat Mun and the WCK tools together.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Yes, the combining of other systems makes WCK lost.

I wholeheartedly agree, it is not about adding in other systems into WCK, but how to use the WCK mechanics, with the WCK Faat Mun and the WCK tools together.



Robert,

Yup, time for every WCK lineages to focus back to their Wing Chun kuen. Get the story straight is far more important then evolve it or doing revolution blindly.

[kung fu fighter]

Robert thanks again,


- you are missing the 3 internal harmonies aka Nei San He/Noi Sam Hop...) .

What are the 3 internal harmonies that you are referring to? is is chi/jing/shen?


Please don't confuse Liu He/Luk Hop with Liu Jing or Liu Li (6 Powers) - the terminology is different - they are the up/down, left right and forward/backward "powers". These allow you to control and line up vector forces which can be spirals, straight, circular, bouncing, etc.

Would you say that all the 6 powers are present in tun, tao, fao, chum?

[Hendrik]

some old old posts

http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=197
http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=195
http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=199
http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=214
http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=198

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, very good. In addition to the 13 areas, you can store and release partial power in parts of the body, allowing you to dissolve some of the opponent's force in different parts of body, further controlling them, and allowing you to strike at will. The classical 6 harmonies (although what you describe above are the external San He/Sam Hop - you are missing the 3 internal harmonies aka Nei San He/Noi Sam Hop...)

There's always something more to add! And yes, I am aware of a version of the 3 internals too although again my interpretation and words will definitely be different. I actually refer to them as saam dantien.


Please don't confuse Liu He/Luk Hop with Liu Jing or Liu Li (6 Powers) - the terminology is different - they are the up/down, left right and forward/backward "powers". These allow you to control and line up vector forces which can be spirals, straight, circular, bouncing, etc.

It's okay, I don't confuse the two. In all fairness, if you haven't cultivated everything that comes before six harmonies (0-5) then we will be on different boats! The six powers tend to build as a result of your understanding of the 6 harmonies, 5 elements, 4 seasons etc and how to adopt such universal knowledge INTO your art. Or at least that is what Lee Shing was known for and how he taught my Sifu and how I continue to learn.


IMHO, most people here are Electic or mma who doenst really do WCK. Some might do WCK but doesnt know the Kuen Choong and thus confuse between sinking of other art and reel silk from other art to WCK's comes accept goes return... style/signature.

I can see where you're coming from here Hendrik, but AGAIN I have to ask that you re-examine the classic 'comes accept' piece again as you seem to refer to it all the time as a kind of 'key' to understanding the mechanics of Wing Chun.

FME it simply isn't. It's a line from a whole piece concerning chisau (pien san chisau to be precise) and it has it's place in interactive training only. And YES this INTERACTIVE training (chisau etc) IS the signature of Wing Chun. NOT one saying but the whole interactive process.

[Hendrik]

I can see where you're coming from here Hendrik,

but AGAIN I have to ask that you re-examine the classic 'comes accept' piece again as you seem to refer to it all the time as a kind of 'key' to understanding the mechanics of Wing Chun.


Comes accept.....etc is the ultimate philosophy of WCK which all machanics needs to support and implement.

Every lineage has they own way to do ' Comes accept....etc'
and every WCK lineage share this philosophy/core/vision.

Without following the same philosophy one doesnt practice WCK but other styles.







FME it simply isn't.

It's a line from a whole piece concerning chisau (pien san chisau to be precise) and it has it's place in interactive training only.

And YES this INTERACTIVE training (chisau etc)

IS the signature of Wing Chun. NOT one saying but the whole interactive process.

IMHO, for me,

chisau is just a drill tool.

one doesnt create a Philosophy to govern how to play in that drill.
One uses the drill tool to experiment and testing the philosophy.
A drill is just a drill, it is not even real, it is just test vehicle.

[LoneTiger108]

Comes accept.....etc is the ultimate philosophy of WCK which all machanics needs to support and implement.

Every lineage has they own way to do ' Comes accept....etc'
and every WCK lineage share this philosophy/core/vision.

Without following the same philosophy one doesnt practice WCK but other styles.

I understand this Hendrik, as I can see that EVERYBODY in the Wing Chun family as a whole will 'recognize' the 'comes accept' line as they may have heard it mentioned or been taught a specific example. But it is the interaction itself that's the key/core vision here, this ONE saying just guides us on good habitual practise. There are many more examples ie. lines that come before and after which are less 'well-known', and possibly missing completely from most families.


IMHO, for me,

chisau is just a drill tool.

one doesnt create a Philosophy to govern how to play in that drill.
One uses the drill tool to experiment and testing the philosophy.
A drill is just a drill, it is not even real, it is just test vehicle.

Agreed. I will have to add that chisau is just ONE 'interactive drill' as there are a few more from what I have experienced. For example, Gin San and Pien San Chisau have completey different tactics, and 'Comes accept' belongs to Pien San Chisau fme.

[chusauli]

If WCK were to be broken the simplest means of its tactics, it would simply be "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung". That pretty much sums it up - Pien San or not.

[Hendrik]

If WCK were to be broken the simplest means of its tactics, it would simply be "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung". That pretty much sums it up - Pien San or not.

Yup, otherwise what do one practice?

[chusauli]

Just a word about Nei San He - these connections are to connect mind (xin) with intent (yi), intent (yi) with energy (qi), and energy (qi) with strength (li). Together with the external San He, you have Zheng Jin (Proper Power) or Zheng Li (Proper Strength).

Although one may equate Xin, Yi, Qi, and Li with the 3 dan tian, it is not proper to do so. The 3 dan tian are the storehouse of Jing, Qi and Shen.

[YungChun]

one doesnt create a Philosophy to govern how to play in that drill.


What do you mean by this?

[LoneTiger108]

If WCK were to be broken the simplest means of its tactics, it would simply be "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung". That pretty much sums it up - Pien San or not.

I think you're BOTH missing my point!

YES I agree that this ONE saying is an example of what WCK INTERACTION is about tactically, but it isn't and shouldn't be used as a staple point for people to sum up WCK. The reason is this: I know far too many Wign Chun practitioners who have 'heard' this saying but never been 'taught' it and I know other Martial Artists that also use this saying in what they do too! And they have never practised Wing Chun. It's one (of a few!) coined phrases and personally I feel proves nothing of your heritage or knowledge unless you know the whole 'piece' of kuit it is attached to.

Ask yourself this: Why would only one simple line be released for public consumption if there was nothing else behind it or linked to it?

To help illustrate my point, if both Robert and Hendrik can give me the line that comes before AND after this famous saying, we will see who the Wing Chun students are that have even had access to such kuit. FME there are far too few that have, or even would want to know what I'm talking about.

I do consider myself very lucky to have even seen such things, and I'm probably in a bit of trouble now simply by attempting to discuss it here in the open! :o

[LoneTiger108]

Yup, otherwise what do one practice?

How about attacking without any concern for what is coming? The sandbag practise prepares all of us for that, doesn't it?

It returns to the whole attached/unattached argument, which is silly imho.

Imagine this: loi lau hoi song = attached and lut sau jik chong = unattached.

Simples :D

[chusauli]

I think you're BOTH missing my point!

YES I agree that this ONE saying is an example of what WCK INTERACTION is about tactically, but it isn't and shouldn't be used as a staple point for people to sum up WCK. The reason is this: I know far too many Wign Chun practitioners who have 'heard' this saying but never been 'taught' it and I know other Martial Artists that also use this saying in what they do too! And they have never practised Wing Chun. It's one (of a few!) coined phrases and personally I feel proves nothing of your heritage or knowledge unless you know the whole 'piece' of kuit it is attached to.

Ask yourself this: Why would only one simple line be released for public consumption if there was nothing else behind it or linked to it?

To help illustrate my point, if both Robert and Hendrik can give me the line that comes before AND after this famous saying, we will see who the Wing Chun students are that have even had access to such kuit. FME there are far too few that have, or even would want to know what I'm talking about.

I do consider myself very lucky to have even seen such things, and I'm probably in a bit of trouble now simply by attempting to discuss it here in the open! :o

Spencer,

I think you are speaking for your lineage only. There is nothing attached to the line, Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung as I know. But I am interested in what you have attached before and after. The YKS lineage I have has a complete set of rhymed Kuit, which has 30 or more verses.

On the other hand, already, many cannot do the basics of Lai Lou (When opponent comes, receive) implies having body structure - because if the opponent comes and you are backing up, stepping out of the way, shifting, or getting knocked around - you are leaving! And if you are leaving, the opponent is escorting, which is the second half of Hui Soong...!. And basically, it means you are losing...

If you are the one in control, you remain, and the opponent leaves, then you escort. That is the proper means. Its not shallow at all, in fact, very deep.

Lut Sao Jik Chung or Fang Lut Jik Chung are the methods of entering.

[Hendrik]

Spencer,

I think you are speaking for your lineage only. There is nothing attached to the line, Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung as I know. But I am interested in what you have attached before and after. The YKS lineage I have has a complete set of rhymed Kuit, which has 30 or more verses.

On the other hand, already, many cannot do the basics of Lai Lou (When opponent comes, receive) implies having body structure - because if the opponent comes and you are backing up, stepping out of the way, shifting, or getting knocked around - you are leaving! And if you are leaving, the opponent is escorting, which is the second half of Hui Soong...!. And basically, it means you are losing...

If you are the one in control, you remain, and the opponent leaves, then you escort. That is the proper means. Its not shallow at all, in fact, very deep.

Lut Sao Jik Chung or Fang Lut Jik Chung are the methods of entering.

Robert,

I totally agree with you.

[Hendrik]

How about attacking without any concern for what is coming? The sandbag practise prepares all of us for that, doesn't it?

It returns to the whole attached/unattached argument, which is silly imho.

Imagine this: loi lau hoi song = attached and lut sau jik chong = unattached.

Simples :D



Too bad you are not in the position to define WCK.

[LoneTiger108]

Too bad you are not in the position to define WCK.

Too bad we're all in the same boat then Hendrik! :p


I think you are speaking for your lineage only. There is nothing attached to the line, Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung as I know. But I am interested in what you have attached before and after. The YKS lineage I have has a complete set of rhymed Kuit, which has 30 or more verses.

I must be Robert, as it seems both you and Hendrik have not heard of what I speak of. That's not a problem imo. At least we can agree on something! Your rhymed kuit also sounds interesting, and it's a pity you don't share more of that stuff to be honest. The literature I have been exposed to sounds very similar indeed, and as I've mentioned before we coach this way at the academy drawing from over 30 verses too. This stuff I can share, other such lines (like the pien san chisau kuit) I really couldn't as it's not my place to.

FWIW That piece is 8 lines of 8, LLHS LSJC being line 5 I think. It has been a while since I looked at it myself!


If you are the one in control, you remain, and the opponent leaves, then you escort. That is the proper means. Its not shallow at all, in fact, very deep.

Lut Sao Jik Chung or Fang Lut Jik Chung are the methods of entering.

I also agree here. Wing Chun itself is by far a 'shallow art'.

[Hendrik]

You can have your opinions, however, I dont agree with you big time.




My bottom line is simple,
if one dont do the "Comes accepts....etc. " at all instant, One doesnt do WCK.
As for how one is doing "comes accepts....etc" , that depend on their lineage and well respect by me.


literature might or might not related to WCK and training. So, again, literature if not accord to "Comes accepts...etc", and the implementation of "Comes accepts..." are not WCK related.


For example, in my lineage, we have inherits lots of literatures but lots of them are not WCK related but CLF stuffs. it doesnt matter who wrote those literatures, how many verse....




Finally, WCK is a deep art for me.






Too bad we're all in the same boat then Hendrik! :p



I must be Robert, as it seems both you and Hendrik have not heard of what I speak of. That's not a problem imo. At least we can agree on something! Your rhymed kuit also sounds interesting, and it's a pity you don't share more of that stuff to be honest. The literature I have been exposed to sounds very similar indeed, and as I've mentioned before we coach this way at the academy drawing from over 30 verses too. This stuff I can share, other such lines (like the pien san chisau kuit) I really couldn't as it's not my place to.

FWIW That piece is 8 lines of 8, LLHS LSJC being line 5 I think. It has been a while since I looked at it myself!



I also agree here. Wing Chun itself is by far a 'shallow art'.

[FongSung]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1018164]

左脚跘出有善惡,
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and countering effect.

QUOTE]

Why does it specify the "left leg" but not the right?
Or why not just state "Leg trips out..."?

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1018164]

左脚跘出有善惡,
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and countering effect.

QUOTE]

Why does it specify the "left leg" but not the right?
Or why not just state "Leg trips out..."?




http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1018774&postcount=63

[FongSung]

Following on from your description of the 6 vectors using the plane abstraction would this be similar to let's say coping with the random movement of a moving train or boat when standing unsupported?

When in this situation I find that to keep my balance I have to be relaxed allowing my joints (ankle, knee's & hips) to absorb the movements. With all this movement going on I find it best to let the body act naturally without thinking too much about holding a strong position (maybe in your words "no mind" & "letting go"?). Being relaxed my stance is still firm. Which I think is different than standing stationary on firm ground and focusing on being strong - yes?

Is this along the lines of what you are describing?

I think you are explaining something that is fundamental even simple but trying to explain this "basic" idea is not in it's self simple. Once you can do it (after much practise) maybe it is simple ha ha like learning to ride a bike or throw a football - what you think?

[LoneTiger108]

You can have your opinions, however, I dont agree with you big time.

My bottom line is simple,
if one dont do the "Comes accepts....etc. " at all instant, One doesnt do WCK.
As for how one is doing "comes accepts....etc" , that depend on their lineage and well respect by me.

It's okay to disagree Hendrik, it's what makes some of these discussions more interesting for me. It's not that I disagree with your point entirely either, as I too look for links to us all, but I would prefer to use something other than a single line of kuit to do so.


For example, in my lineage, we have inherits lots of literatures but lots of them are not WCK related but CLF stuffs. it doesnt matter who wrote those literatures, how many verse....

Finally, WCK is a deep art for me.

I find the fact that the Yik Kam lineage has inherited CLF literature quite fantastic really. Do you know if the literature from CLF is evident in the modern CLF curriculums too? I only ask because, as far as I know, the 'stuffs' I have been exposed to are directly connected to Wing Chun but again I'm also learning that this is totally unique to the Lee Shing family (or at least the Jun Mo School I originate from!)

I say this because it is evident that even other Lee family members, who are far more known than my Sifu, do not teach with literature. However, they are very well aware that it exists and I guess it's only a matter of time before more bits and pieces leak out to the mainstream.

[Hendrik]

Following on from your description of the 6 vectors using the plane abstraction would this be similar to let's say coping with the random movement of a moving train or boat when standing unsupported?

When in this situation I find that to keep my balance I have to be relaxed allowing my joints (ankle, knee's & hips) to absorb the movements. With all this movement going on I find it best to let the body act naturally without thinking too much about holding a strong position (maybe in your words "no mind" & "letting go"?). Being relaxed my stance is still firm. Which I think is different than standing stationary on firm ground and focusing on being strong - yes?

Is this along the lines of what you are describing?

I think you are explaining something that is fundamental even simple but trying to explain this "basic" idea is not in it's self simple. Once you can do it (after much practise) maybe it is simple ha ha like learning to ride a bike or throw a football - what you think?



Good starting point, Get a good sifu to lead you.