Rashad Using Some Movements Similar to Monkey?

[HumbleWCGuy]

If anyone saw the fight between Rashad and Rampage last night, I found it interesting that a few of his moments were right out of the Monkey play book, as I understand it. The low stance and extended arm that set up the takedown. Dave Camirillo also does a lot of monkey-like stuff. I have often thought that if monkey stylist stopped larping and incorporated some BJJ into their fighting that they would be pretty formidable because they could use their knowledge of unorthodox but effective entries to take people down.

[bawang]

in nothern martial arts, there is concept of "dou" one on one dueling and "da zhan" battlefield fighting.
new book on effective strategy chapter one says
"there are people who fight "good" in a duel one on one but in a real war they are the first to run away. do not recruit them."

most northern martial arts will not work in modern one on one fighting because they train "da zhan" battle field fighting.

being calm and cool, using subtle footwork, wearing your opponent out, having a careful guard, being quick your feet, they are useless in battlefield fighting. people good at one on one duels are called "jing"
meaning they are "good"(sarcasm)

many northern techniques leave you exposed and easy to get knocked out. its done on purpose, to build courage, not for winning a fight.


im sorry to tell you.

[bawang]

此丰伟不可恃big muscle cannot be trusted
艺精而胆不充 or those good at one on one duels
则临事怕死， they will be afraid to die
手足仓卒 in a real battle they will turn slow and sluggish out of fear
尽乃失其故态 they will be terrified and seem like a different person
常先众而走 often the first to run
，则未遇之先爱择便宜 those who only duels one on one and never saw a real battle like to take advantage of rules and choose conditions that make them win
未阵之际预思自全之路 but in a real battle they will only think of survival
临事之际，除已欲先奔犹之可也 in a real battle they often freeze in fear or run away
，呼之不闻，推之不动 you shout at them they dont answer, you push them they dont move; they are completely in shock
第一选人以精神为主，而当兼
用相法，亦忌凶死之形
the most important is spirit; recruit ones whose appearace radiates death


so historically military commanders say from experience recruits who are "too good" at one on one sports fighting(chinese lei tai did have rules; no groin/throat and you can wear protective leather guard. death match was a myth) doesnt prepare you for killing people because you get adrenaline rush.

muhammad ali may be a godly boxer, but if he was in ming china and he saw screaming japanese pirates covered in blood and tying naked children on a pole and setting them on fire maybe he would not fight so good in that different environment, and not be able to pull off his subtle boxing footwork

[David Jamieson]

此丰伟不可恃big muscle cannot be trusted
艺精而胆不充 or those good at one on one duels
则临事怕死， they will be afraid to die
手足仓卒 in a real battle they will turn slow and sluggish out of fear
尽乃失其故态 they will be terrified and seem like a different person
常先众而走 often the first to run
，则未遇之先爱择便宜 those who only duels one on one and never saw a real battle like to take advantage of rules and choose conditions that make them win
未阵之际预思自全之路 but in a real battle they will only think of survival
临事之际，除已欲先奔犹之可也 in a real battle they often freeze in fear or run away
，呼之不闻，推之不动 you shout at them they dont answer, you push them they dont move; they are completely in shock
第一选人以精神为主，而当兼
用相法，亦忌凶死之形
the most important is spirit; recruit ones whose appearace radiates death


so historically military commanders say from experience recruits who are "too good" at one on one sports fighting(chinese lei tai did have rules; no groin/throat and you can wear protective leather guard. death match was a myth) doesnt prepare you for killing people because you get adrenaline rush.

muhammad ali may be a godly boxer, but if he was in ming china and he saw screaming japanese pirates covered in blood and tying naked children on a pole and setting them on fire maybe he would not fight so good in that different environment, and not be able to pull off his subtle boxing footwork

Next time I get in a mixup at the pub, I'm going to tie naked children to posts and light them on fire!!!! See how those wankers feel about that!

Then start a ufc career based only on my various techniques of torturing my opponents loved ones or at least shaking his sensibilities with some dastardly deed or another.

pet rape could be another avenue of terror that hasn't been looked at as far as the ring goes. But whatever works right?

[bawang]

bro
bro
hay
hay bro

can i borrow your dog

[HumbleWCGuy]

in nothern martial arts, there is concept of "dou" one on one dueling and "da zhan" battlefield fighting.
new book on effective strategy chapter one says
"there are people who fight "good" in a duel one on one but in a real war they are the first to run away. do not recruit them."

most northern martial arts will not work in modern one on one fighting because they train "da zhan" battle field fighting.

being calm and cool, using subtle footwork, wearing your opponent out, having a careful guard, being quick your feet, they are useless in battlefield fighting. people good at one on one duels are called "jing"
meaning they are "good"(sarcasm)

many northern techniques leave you exposed and easy to get knocked out. its done on purpose, to build courage, not for winning a fight.


im sorry to tell you.


No doubt that there is some truth to what you are saying, but I find it a bit disingenuous to write-off people's lack of fighting success as a simple misunderstanding about the purpose of various arts.

[bawang]

i write new message because we have a misunderstanding.

empty hand fighting is never the main focus of chinese martial arts.the focus is weapons for army formation fighting.
traditionally empty hand fighting isnt even considered martial arts. jixiaoxingshu from 1560 says "many schools teach their students boxing before teaching them martial arts."

chinese boxing use weapon principles to prepare for weapons. butterfly knife doesnt follow your wingchun principle. your wingchun follows butterfly knife principle.


thats why chinese boxing is inferior to western boxing. but chinese wrestling is traditional sports competition so its very good. so chinese wrestling + western boxing = sanda

[HumbleWCGuy]

i gave you hard written historical documents from 1560 by famous general qijiguang who has killed thousands of people in real life.

how many people did helio gracie kill? ZERO
how many people did mas oyama kill? ZERO

why do u have an obsession to make kung fu "work"?

northern kung fu is supposed to make you easy to get knocked out. when you know you will probably lose and youre not scared anymore, you finish the empty hand training and move to weapons. the ultimate goal of northern martial arts is to train you to be meat shield and not be afraid to die.

What northern kung fu I have know has never failed me. So in that sense, I am not trying to make it work. I have a strong sense, that it has, does, and will continue to work. Does, Northern have a stronger military application? I would concede to that.

The, idea that people should train to fail so that they won't be afraid is a bit laughable as a tactical advantage. Even if that were that were a philosophical decision on the part of the military for a time, there has been a lot of system development previously, during, and after that time period. Moreover, I have seen too much workable Northern Kung Fu to buy that the goal has always been to fail. You seem to be basing your analysis on the idea that Nothern Kung fu was derived strictly from military training with long, rich tradition of failure kept in tact.

[HumbleWCGuy]

chinese boxing use weapon principles to prepare for weapons. butterfly knife doesnt follow your wingchun principle. your wingchun follows butterfly knife principle.


NO... The weapons of Wing Chun were added later. Wing Chun was and is primarily an empty hand system.

[bawang]

You seem to be basing your analysis on the idea that Nothern Kung fu was derived strictly from military training with long, rich tradition of failure kept in tact.

yes exactly
its been one thousand year tradition to rush meat shield infantry then back up with rifle and arrow squad with chain cannons

thats why the chinese lost so many men in the 22nd world war. they used traditional qing dynasty human wave tactics

NO... The weapons of Wing Chun were added later. Wing Chun was and is primarily an empty hand system.

it comes from fujian martial arts which bases on knife and stick fighting principles


true chinese martial artist
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/zh/4/4f/%E8%BF%85%E9%9B%B7%E9%8A%83%E5%A3%AB.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

that helmet he has on rocks... i want one.....

[HumbleWCGuy]

it comes from fujian martial arts which bases on knife and stick fighting principles




That's possible but it would not be consistent with any of the origins of WC.


Regarding your other ideas. While it is true in fact that much of martial arts was designed to fight with weapons initially, it is also true of all martial arts, not just Chinese martial arts. There are schools of martial arts from all traditions including TCMA with strong hand to hand skills, I am not willing to accept weak fighting skills, based on a supposed adherence to a weapons fighting past. Generally speaking a schools that put out people weak fighters in hand to hand does so in weapons fighting as well.

[bawang]

being good at hand fighting is meaningless. it doesnt prove anything. continue true spirit of chinese martial arts by training knife and firearms

white crane pistol and shaolin shotgun = the future
tai chi tactical knife training
praying mantis assault rifle training


real chinese martial arts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie7_bKuDeTk

[HumbleWCGuy]

being good at hand fighting is meaningless. it doesnt prove anything. continue true spirit of chinese martial arts by training knife and firearms


white crane pistol and shaolin shotgun = the future
tai chi tactical knife training
praying mantis assault rifle training


real chinese martial arts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie7_bKuDeTk
In the absence of any legitimate weapons-fighting skill, it is just an excuse. If we are going to say that our emphasis is on weapons then I need to see time and effort devoted to them during training. Most importantly, I need to see the skill.

[monkeyfoot]

real chinese martial arts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie7_bKuDeTk

:rolleyes:

[bawang]

old footage of monkey boxer li goushi at 1928 lei tai competition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeoLqus4CB0

[Kevin73]

Rumors about some of Rashaad's training are that he has trained in the deadly art of 52 blocks.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Rumors about some of Rashaad's training are that he has trained in the deadly art of 52 blocks.

52 blocks seems like a reasonably sound system. What's your problem with it?

[Kevin73]

52 blocks seems like a reasonably sound system. What's your problem with it?

Mostly it's questionable history. They market it as never before seen ways to fight etc. but it looks like filipino boxing.

[Chief_Suicide]

If anyone saw the fight between Rashad and Rampage last night, I found it interesting that a few of his moments were right out of the Monkey play book, as I understand it. The low stance and extended arm that set up the take down. Dave Camirillo also does a lot of monkey-like stuff. I have often thought that if monkey stylist stopped larping and incorporated some BJJ into their fighting that they would be pretty formidable because they could use their knowledge of unorthodox but effective entries to take people down.

Well, your thread got hijacked in the worst way. Par for course.

I watched the fight, and I can see what you are saying. Rashad stays low and fast, feigns a few punches and then hits the takedown. It has done him wonders in his last two fights. In both of those fights he was rocked by a solid punch, but won convincingly because of his low fast takedowns.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Mostly it's questionable history. They market it as never before seen ways to fight etc. but it looks like filipino boxing.

What's a long rich history worth if you just go out and lose fights? As far as their marketing, they seem to claim to be an amalgam of boxing, kung fu, and some other arts. I don't think that they are claiming to have anything super original.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Well, your thread got hijacked in the worst way. Par for course.

I watched the fight, and I can see what you are saying. Rashad stays low and fast, feigns a few punches and then hits the takedown. It has done him wonders in his last two fights. In both of those fights he was rocked by a solid punch, but won convincingly because of his low fast takedowns.

Does your system contain any monkey?

[Chief_Suicide]

No, not any Monkey in the style I train. But Rashad looks like he trained in it. His Octagon entrance, his 'feints' and then rush.

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, not any Monkey in the style I train. But Rashad looks like he trained in it. His Octagon entrance, his 'feints' and then rush.

My instructor was/is a monkey specialist in his northern kung fu. In our southern systems we use a lot of monkey. Almost all of our throws are monkey based. In addition we use a lot of movements similar to Rashad's. Obviously, it is something that you have to have some conventional fighting skill to go with, but it does seem to add a dimension to our game. It is really helpful against Uber orthodox systems like JKD. They think that anything with flash doesn't work so they ignore it in their training.

[Kevin73]

What's a long rich history worth if you just go out and lose fights? As far as their marketing, they seem to claim to be an amalgam of boxing, kung fu, and some other arts. I don't think that they are claiming to have anything super original.

Now that it is out and in public, many people who say that they practice and learn the style attribute it to early defensive black boxers like Jack Johnson. If you read about 52 blocks from about 5 years ago there was only one person talking about it on the forums who claimed to know it and it was an art shown ONLY to black people after they had shown themselves trustworthy and that the art was created by slaves and was created for fighting in close while wearing shackles. The art had been passed on in secret since before the Civil War and was only known to certain people who also kept it secret.

Do I buy that it was/is a progressive self-defense art mixing boxing with other tricks and tactics that are found to be effective on the street? Yep

Do I buy the other history of it that it was created and passed on in complete secrecy to only a select few people and no one ever showed anything? Nope

Sorry, for the highjack, but it was related to the question of what Rashaad Evans uses. Here is the link where Evans talks about 52 Blocks.
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=video.detail&gid=111673

As far as monkey footwork, 52 Blocks was also influenced by Caporeria (sp?) which has low acrobatic footwork included.