Wing Chun Full contact on cable TV ??

[Phil Redmond]

A movie producer friend of mine wants to do a cable TV show where different TMA styles fight other martial artists. He initially wanted to have people of the same art but from different schools compete. He wanted to start with a segment where WC schools fought against each other. I told him that WC has enough infighting so I wouldn't support that. I did however say that maybe we could get a team of WC people from different lineages to form a "Team Wing Chun" to fight against another TMA team. I haven't approached anyone yet but I will contact Sifu Jay Hitchman from Moy Yat lineage to see if he's willing to enter some of his students like he did in the manupstandup matches. I do believe that any amatuer should be able to compete, even MMA people. But for some reason he wants TMA only because TMA has a rep for not fighting. The matches may have to take place in NJ but I'll have more details later. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just passing on an idea. I'd appreciate any input from you guys on how this can or cannot work. Thanks in advance.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

My friends from other martial arts disciplines including MMA told me not to expect many offers from WC people to fight. I said that it's too early to say that since I just made the post. I hope they are wrong.

[Phil Redmond]

It would also be nice to see an over 50 Sifu full contact match. I would be into that for sure. I wouldn't want to do a 3 min 5 round match against a younger guy since I know I'd get gassed. But I can see doing a full contact match with someone in my age group for maybe two 2 min rounds. Sensei Jonas Nunez who I fought some years ago is advocating over 50 instructors doing full contact. It would be very interesting to see if what we "mature" Sifus teach can work. If anyone over 50 is interested please shoot me a PM.

[cerebus]

Well, I'm a Tai Chi practitioner, but I'd love to fight some more full-contact matches (Team Tai Chi vs Team Wing Chun?). Unfortunately I'm in California, nowhere near Jersey... :(

[Phil Redmond]

Well, I'm a Tai Chi practitioner, but I'd love to fight some more full-contact matches (Team Tai Chi vs Team Wing Chun?). Unfortunately I'm in California, nowhere near Jersey... :(
Thanks for being the first person to chime in. I adamantly believe TMA can compete full contact if trained right. After all, MMA has it's roots in TMA regardless off what people think.
Maybe this can become an international event. But I still don't think there will be any creditability until some invincible, incredible, undeafeatable, MMA guy gets involved. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I still don't think there will be any creditability until some invincible, incredible, undeafeatable, MMA guy gets involved. :rolleyes:

Well, depending upon the rules, sanctioning (ie how LEGAL) etc I am sure I have a bunch of students who would want to fight.....

My concern is primarily that the event is LEGAL and sanctioned with insurance

[Phil Redmond]

Well, depending upon the rules, sanctioning (ie how LEGAL) etc I am sure I have a bunch of students who would want to fight.....

My concern is primarily that the event is LEGAL and sanctioned with insurance
I definitively agree with you since you have more experience with full contact rules. Please let me me know what my friend needs to do to make such an event happen. His initial event was supposed to be WC v CLF. But he was basing this rivalry according to things he'd seen on websites. I do have NJ connections for full contact bouts

[Sihing73]

Hey Phil,

If you pay my way up I would be interested in participating. Perhaps even get a little of the Army vs Marine rivalry :D

Although, at present my training is focused on other than wing chun, I might still remember enough wc to make a good showing. At least I can fall down well ;)

Seriously, hit me up offline and give me more details. Perhaps I could arrange a visit when I bring the girls up to visit their mom.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The problem I see with these sort of events is that by the time legal sanctioning, insurance, and whatever gets done with it, you have another MMA situation. Most of your fighting skills are going to neutralized by gloves and rules out the a$$. None of this and none of that, can't do this and can't do that. If you want to see good fighting between the traditional martial arts you will have to have a no holds barred fight. The only rule being that you can not deliberately kill an apponent. Otherwise, it is going to end up just like they all do, being a MMA situation.

[Phil Redmond]

I also believe that guys like me who are among the pioneers of WC figthers in the East Coast should be able to demonstrate what we teach in a full contact match with Sifus in our own group. I know I can at least do a 2 or 3 round round match against someone in my age group. Any takers?

[Phil Redmond]

The problem I see with these sort of events is that by the time legal sanctioning, insurance, and whatever gets done with it, you have another MMA situation. Most of your fighting skills are going to neutralized by gloves and rules out the a$$. None of this and none of that, can't do this and can't do that. If you want to see good fighting between the traditional martial arts you will have to have a no holds barred fight. The only rule being that you can not deliberately kill an apponent. Otherwise, it is going to end up just like they all do, being a MMA situation.
You hit the nail right on the head. I just received a PM from someone in NY who is familiar with full contact rules. Here's what he wrote me: "Better to do a sanshou/san da like format, no ground, and you can legally do it in NY without even the commission getting involved"
I'm going to suggest this to the promoter.

[SAAMAG]

If time, money, and other resources were paid---I'd do it in a heartbeat. It's hard to find good, consistent sparring partners here so any chance I get to find one that's also into TMA's I jump on them (not literally).

But really...what's the big deal about rules and gloves? Anyone that says that they can't use wing chun because of 4oz gloves or rules probably can't do wing chun anyway.

You can still punch, use any of the arm movements, kick straight, use all of your footwork...so what's the problem? Sounds like excuses to me.

[Phil Redmond]

I will always say that those of us who advocate fighting should at least be able to fight against our peers. I'm ready to spar/fight against WC people of my age group. I should set a example for my students. There are too many theoretical Sifus out there. Any takers in the NY area?

[Phil Redmond]

If time, money, and other resources were paid---I'd do it in a heartbeat. It's hard to find good, consistent sparring partners here so any chance I get to find one that's also into TMA's I jump on them (not literally).

But really...what's the big deal about rules and gloves? Anyone that says that they can't use wing chun because of 4oz gloves or rules probably can't do wing chun anyway.

You can still punch, use any of the arm movements, kick straight, use all of your footwork...so what's the problem? Sounds like excuses to me.
Thumbs up. :)

[cerebus]

I know I can at least do a 2 or 3 round round match against someone in my age group. Any takers?

Don't know what your age is or if you ever get out to Oakland, California, but I'll be 40 in July and weigh around 170/ 175. If you ever get out this way, let me know. I'd be happy to fight a friendly but competitive match with you...

We can bill it as Tai Chi vs Wing Chun and sell copies of the vid... :p

[Phil Redmond]

Don't know what your age is or if you ever get out to Oakland, California, but I'll be 40 in July and weigh around 170/ 175. If you ever get out this way, let me know. I'd be happy to fight a friendly but competitive match with you...

We can bill it as Tai Chi vs Wing Chun and sell copies of the vid... :p
I seriously respect that. I miss full contact and look for any chance to do so. My email is sifu@wckwoon.com. I should be in L.A. in September. Contact me
Peace, Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Don't know what your age is or if you ever get out to Oakland, California, but I'll be 40 in July and weigh around 170/ 175. If you ever get out this way, let me know. I'd be happy to fight a friendly but competitive match with you...

We can bill it as Tai Chi vs Wing Chun and sell copies of the vid... :p
I'm a young 62. :D But there are Sifus my age in my area that should be able to fight a full contact match anywhere in NYC to prove what they do works against a resisting opponent. I can be reached at my website, sifupr@wckwoon.com if any Sifus in my area want to test what they teach ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

You and I have to have a little matchup, Phil…probably at some point towards the end of the summer or early autumn, since I have quite a load of things on my plate right now.

I’m starting a new job next week in the sales of business equipment, and going to work for someone who knows me for over 20 years – so he expects me to hit the ground running…

Which means that it’s not just 8:30-5:30 M-F in the beginning – but also some homework at night doing webinars for product knowledge, and for planning the sales calls for the next day…

AND…

I’m in the middle of selling my house (the closing is on June 18th)…which means packing, and moving, and unpacking…

AND…

I’m still looking for a place in the Tribeca area of Manhattan to move my school to (all the places I’ve seen so far are either too small or can’t give me the days & hours I want)…

And since I already left the school in Brooklyn at the end of March - I’m only working out with a few students on Saturdays (and that’s only when weather permits – since we hold the class outdoors)…

Instead of the normal 3-4 days per week that I’ve been doing for all these many years…

So I need to get a new place, settle in, and get back into the shape I’m used to being in…

And then you and I can have our own little matchup. I’ll really be looking forward to that.

-So I’ll be in touch…

[hunt1]

Phil I take it this will occur in New York area? I think I have several folks that might be interested but they would have to travel some distance so would have to have all information far enough in advance so that all arrangements for travel could be made.

[cerebus]

I seriously respect that. I miss full contact and look for any chance to do so. My email is sifu@wckwoon.com. I should be in L.A. in September. Contact me
Peace, Phil

Hey Phil. Thanks! L.A. is a ways away from me (I'm across the bay from SF), will you be coming up through Nor Cal after L.A.? We have a pretty good little group of friends here who are connected through the forum formerly known as "emptyflower" (now known as rumsoakedfist.org for a variety of convoluted reasons). One of them is Fong Liu, a Shuai Jiao student of Daniel Weng who is also a certified International San Shou referee (as well as being built like a mack truck and being a good aggressive guy to spar against).

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .
And then you and I can have our own little matchup. I’ll really be looking forward to that.

-So I’ll be in touch…
You have my contact info

[Lee Chiang Po]

If time, money, and other resources were paid---I'd do it in a heartbeat. It's hard to find good, consistent sparring partners here so any chance I get to find one that's also into TMA's I jump on them (not literally).

But really...what's the big deal about rules and gloves? Anyone that says that they can't use wing chun because of 4oz gloves or rules probably can't do wing chun anyway.

You can still punch, use any of the arm movements, kick straight, use all of your footwork...so what's the problem? Sounds like excuses to me.


You must be an MMA enthusiest. All that was so easy to say, but making it happen is going to be your challenge. I would not waste time doing something that is going to end up just like all the other MMA stuff with people saying, just look at that, Such and such don't work. Go MMA!! It is all foolishness to begin with you know. I probably shouldn't have said that, and I am not a troll. I am on an open forum and I am only expressing an opinion. If you can work this thing with as few rules as you can, maybe it will work out.

[SAAMAG]

You must be an MMA enthusiest. All that was so easy to say, but making it happen is going to be your challenge. I would not waste time doing something that is going to end up just like all the other MMA stuff with people saying, just look at that, Such and such don't work. Go MMA!! It is all foolishness to begin with you know. I probably shouldn't have said that, and I am not a troll. I am on an open forum and I am only expressing an opinion. If you can work this thing with as few rules as you can, maybe it will work out.

Well...think about it....do the gloves REALLY hinder your ability to use wing chun? You can still use tan, bong, wu, pak, biu, gam, jaam, gaan, kwan, kau, lap and etc. You can still punch. You can still kick. So no, it doesn't hinder your wing chun.

Does the fact that maiming techniques not being allowed REALLY hinder your wing chun? Do you depend on eye gouging, fish hooking, kicking to the balls, hitting the back of the head or spine, sticking your fingers in peoples a-holes, or anything of the like when you train your wing chun? No? Then the rules don't hinder your use of wing chun.

So if the gloves and the rules don't hinder the use of one's wing chun, then why use that as an excuse? The reason I can say this so "easily" is because I do it every time I train. It's quite easy to continue to implement with 4 oz gloves and I've even used wing chun with boxing gloves for christ sake. Not all of it mind you because the gloves are so big, but things like cutting punches, angles, using the forearms / bridges in varied forms like bong and biu jong sao...etc.

That is why I say that anyone that says the gloves and rules don't allow them to use their wing chun are just full of crap and making excuses.

[anerlich]

Don't know what your age is or if you ever get out to Oakland, California, but I'll be 40 in July and weigh around 170/ 175. If you ever get out this way, let me know. I'd be happy to fight a friendly but competitive match with you...


Sorry for jumping in, but Phil's > 15 years older than you.

From my own experience as a 55 year old, the difference between 40 and 50+ is pretty huge. I've trained all that time, but the fall off in cardio and the longer injury-related lapses are inexorable.

BJJ have divisions, though in small comps they're generally not used, of five year increments once you're over 30. When I compete (not for a few years) it's usually against a guy 20 or 30 years younger with equivalent technical skills, and that's hard work.

The occasional outlier like Randy Couture notwithstanding, IMO you probably want to be within 5 years of your opponent to make it reasonably fair. The ancient grandmaster effortlessly defeating the hordes of youngsters is the stuff only of legend.

[anerlich]

My WC instructor had a long and successful kickboxing career. Gloves and rules didn't affect his success much.

He also won an international KF tournament in Hong Kong in 1982. The gloves were about 4 oz, and you could do just about anything other than biting, groin shots and eye pokes. heaps of elbows to the back of the neck. They only ran it once because so many people got injured that none of the sponsors ever wanted anything to do with a similar tournament again.


If you want to see good fighting between the traditional martial arts you will have to have a no holds barred fight. The only rule being that you can not deliberately kill an apponent.

Try getting the finances together for that. And staying out of jail.

[Zhang Yong Chun]

Masters Redmond and Parlati have a lot more experience than I do, but from what I've seen locally, getting an event like this together is a *bear*, primarily because of the insurance.

When someone gets hurt, what recourse do they have for medical treatment? What is the long-term consequence of their injury?

When the lawyers get involved it gets to be very expensive to put this together.

As for 50 and 60 year old, non-professionals competing in any athletic event, much less a contact sport... God Bless You, but the human body does have its limits. As much as a warrior anyone of us may be, physics is physics. I don't think anyone over the age of 50 should fight in a full-contact, no-equipment event. It only takes one shot to have a life-changing injury.

[lkfmdc]

Did anything ever come of this?

[LoneTiger108]

Masters Redmond and Parlati have a lot more experience than I do, but from what I've seen locally, getting an event like this together is a *bear*, primarily because of the insurance.

When someone gets hurt, what recourse do they have for medical treatment? What is the long-term consequence of their injury?

When the lawyers get involved it gets to be very expensive to put this together.

Man! Just sign a waiver like the olde days :D

I wish you all the luck in the world to get this off the ground in the states!

[Frost]

Did anything ever come of this?

im guessing not, and i am also guessing that stuff like this is the reason you have your guys compete in MMA these days

[Frost]

You must be an MMA enthusiest. All that was so easy to say, but making it happen is going to be your challenge. I would not waste time doing something that is going to end up just like all the other MMA stuff with people saying, just look at that, Such and such don't work. Go MMA!! It is all foolishness to begin with you know. I probably shouldn't have said that, and I am not a troll. I am on an open forum and I am only expressing an opinion. If you can work this thing with as few rules as you can, maybe it will work out.

exactly what does 4oz gloves, mats and a gum shield stop you from doing from your arsenal of wing chun techniques?

[SanHeChuan]

It's not any of those things. It's the other guy. :eek:

[LoneTiger108]

exactly what does 4oz gloves, mats and a gum shield stop you from doing from your arsenal of wing chun techniques?

A solid kick to the knee joint, nuts or neck? :D:p

[Frost]

A solid kick to the knee joint, nuts or neck? :D:p

knees and nuts were allowed in early ufcs...and i dare so in valetudo in brazil they still are :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

knees and nuts were allowed in early ufcs...and i dare so in valetudo in brazil they still are :)

I fought a VT match once that the only rule was to respect the ref when he stops the fight.
Gotta love those matches on indian reservations ;)

[Frost]

I fought a VT match once that the only rule was to respect the ref when he stops the fight.
Gotta love those matches on indian reservations ;)

At least you know what you do will work against a resisting opponent...even if it was just sports:)

i hope your ref wasnt like the guy at the first UFC comp...the one where the fighters kept expecting him to step in to stop the matches and he just looked on:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

At least you know what you do will work against a resisting opponent...even if it was just sports:)

i hope your ref wasnt like the guy at the first UFC comp...the one where the fighters kept expecting him to step in to stop the matches and he just looked on:eek:

No comment.

[Wayfaring]

i hope your ref wasnt like the guy at the first UFC comp...the one where the fighters kept expecting him to step in to stop the matches and he just looked on:eek:

or like #2 in Denver where in one of the first fights that sumo wrestler got his teeth kicked into the second row? and the whole arena got instantly deathly quiet?

[weakstudent]

much respect Sifu Redmond for trying to get a sifu over 50 competitions but from what i've been reading i don't think guys your age in the TMA will want to compete to much ego i think u are the only one willing to compete will or lose, but good luck i would really like to see you throwdown old school, lol

[doug maverick]

A movie producer friend of mine wants to do a cable TV show where different TMA styles fight other martial artists. He initially wanted to have people of the same art but from different schools compete. He wanted to start with a segment where WC schools fought against each other. I told him that WC has enough infighting so I wouldn't support that. I did however say that maybe we could get a team of WC people from different lineages to form a "Team Wing Chun" to fight against another TMA team. I haven't approached anyone yet but I will contact Sifu Jay Hitchman from Moy Yat lineage to see if he's willing to enter some of his students like he did in the manupstandup matches. I do believe that any amatuer should be able to compete, even MMA people. But for some reason he wants TMA only because TMA has a rep for not fighting. The matches may have to take place in NJ but I'll have more details later. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just passing on an idea. I'd appreciate any input from you guys on how this can or cannot work. Thanks in advance.
Phil

does this movie producer have the initials WH? sounds like something he would do.

[taai gihk yahn]

I fought a VT match once that the only rule was to respect the ref when he stops the fight.
Gotta love those matches on indian reservations ;)

3D film (director's cut) with subtitles, liner notes and overlay narration or it didn't happen...;)

[lkfmdc]

ah, the "deadly" direct kick to the knee which was and IS legal in international san shou, they have had international competition since 1991 (so that is like 19 years?) and you know what, it NEVER WORKED... in fact, they don't even try it anymore

[Dragonzbane76]

knees and nuts were allowed in early ufcs...and i dare so in valetudo in brazil they still are

keith hackney fight

http://www.yorkblog.com/mma/hackneyjoeson.gif

[k gledhill]

keith hackney fight

http://www.yorkblog.com/mma/hackneyjoeson.gif

stomping the nuts works too...but wearing a cup stops the effects :D

[Dave McKinnon]

I am interested if this happens. If there is a way Alan's guys would probably want in too.

[tigershorty]

stomping the nuts works too...but wearing a cup stops the effects :D

lol, i wish that was true. i got kicked in the balls pretty hard while wearing a cup...i think i walked in circles for a week after. maybe someone can recommend a good one- i might have just bought a really crappy one.

[Dragonzbane76]

I think they changed the Vale tudo rule set on the nut punch thing. I was watching Rioheros and they where talking about it being legal before but now it wasn't.

[Dave McKinnon]

lol, i wish that was true. i got kicked in the balls pretty hard while wearing a cup...i think i walked in circles for a week after. maybe someone can recommend a good one- i might have just bought a really crappy one.

Get a metal Thai Cup with tie on straps, tie it tight so the boys don't get pinched...
Getting kicked with a cup still gives you that pleasant deep satisfaction (pain) of hard training.

Dave