The Void....

[RenDaHai]

Hey Team,

In my sect of Gong Fu we tend not to rely heavily on scriptures, however there are two always close at hand. The heart of perfect wisdom sutra, and the Dao De Jing.

The Pivotal line for me in the Heart Sutra is this;

Form does not differ from the Void
And the Void does not differ from Form
Form is Void and Void is Form.

Many ways to translate it but this does fine.

I know what it means to me and to my practice of Gong fu, but I am interested what it means to you well read gentlemen? And how do you apply this to your cultivation? Just be interested to hear a few ideas that aren't my own or my masters.

(I put this in the Shaolin forum because it is a Buddhist scripture)

[David Jamieson]

in the 81 chapters within the tao te ching we find this sage wisdom about the concept of void:

" The spokes of a wheel share one hub, but it is where there is void that the efficacy of the cart lies" (the axel hole)

"We shape a vessel from clay, but it is where there is void that the efficacy of the vessel lies" (the space within the bowl)

"We pierce doors and windows into a house and it is where there is void that the efficacy of the house lies" (the entrance and viewports)

Void is in that sense "wu".

Void is the mother, it is the womb, it is the heavens, it is recognizing the actual usefulness of nothingness in each and every context. Without void, there cannot be the ten thousand things!

:)

[RenDaHai]

MARVELOUS!

In the dao de jing we can see that within the Void lies the maximum potencial.

0 = +1 - 1 = 0 = +2 - 2 = 0 = +7 - 7 = +1000 - 1000 = +10^9 - 10^9 = 0

Can anyone make sense of this maths?

So we already have one important principle of the Void..... Lets keep it up

[David Jamieson]

The maths shown demonstrate that positive+negative or - will produce void when laid against each other. We can learn that equality creates void and thereby creates balance. The things still exist, but are most harmonious when there is void.

For martial artists, one of the most important lessons in understanding void is the simple phrase "empty your cup".

:)

[RenDaHai]

Wonderful,

Indeed, the empty cup is the classic example of potencial.

Absolutely correct, all equal combinations of yin and yang can are contained and balanced within the void. But also that there are infinite possibilities, all numbers no matter how high can be contained within zero in this way.

[RenDaHai]

Ok So we can see that the Void can represent the ultimate potential,

We can even see that the void is infinite in its voidness and the void implies infinity,

In chinese Wuji contains the character Wu 'without, void of' and the character ji 'Limit, extreme, supreme, summit'. So the term Wuji can be read in two ways, 'That which is Without limit' (infinity) or 'the supreme void' That which is utterly void, the limit of voidness. But using our mind we can see that the concept of void and of infinity imply each other. Using psuedo maths we can also say that 1/0=infinity and 1/infinity=0, helps some people to look at it that way.

But we are straying from the point

VOID IS FORM, FORM IS VOID

This line represents a 'Eurika' moment, it is an incredibly important realisation, one line which is more important than volumes of buddhist doctrine, What does it mean??

I'm still searching for my answer, so thats why I'm asking you guys-

[HumbleWCGuy]

In my brand of kung fu void is the state of "no mind." It is an experience that you can achieve through training. It is when you react without thinking. You can heap whatever other nonsense on to it that you want, but from a fighting aspect that is about what it boils down to.

[RenDaHai]

In my brand of kung fu void is the state of "no mind." It is an experience that you can achieve through training. It is when you react without thinking. You can heap whatever other nonsense on to it that you want, but from a fighting aspect that is about what it boils down to.

Good stuff,

I could add to that 'react without thinking' to also react without form. As in every situation is unique and you allow yourself to react accordingly without forcing any specific technique or following any specific form. Because you understand the principles behind the technique you don't have to perform it exactly as you practiced it before. This is also void applied to combat, void of form and no mind.

Great, but not exactly what I'm looking for, I'm interested in the use of FORM IS VOID in relation to philosophy of life in general. As a tool for altering perception.

[KC Elbows]

But we are straying from the point

VOID IS FORM, FORM IS VOID

This line represents a 'Eurika' moment, it is an incredibly important realisation, one line which is more important than volumes of buddhist doctrine, What does it mean??

From one narrow aspect, fighting, I tend to take the view that technique cannot be a thing on its own, when done in a form it implies another person's actions, and when done in action with an opponent, it exists in the combination of the two fighters.

In this sense, the void is neither me nor my opponent, but the fight, the combination/communication at play in good fighting.

One cannot ward off another, there are merely moments where ward off is what makes sense given what is happening. What is happening between two opponents arises, as it were, from a void, and so being aware of this over me or the opponent is a more direct adviser to what the form for the moment should be than anything else.

Likewise, when I am aware of the void, and I apply an appropriate form, the end result is not necessarily a textbook case of how that form comes to completion, but, for lack of another term, a new void arises from that form, with possibilities that may call for different forms. We have all been too proud of a move we felt would be decisive, only to have it turn around on us because we did not see that the end of our form could lead elsewhere than where we planned.

[KC Elbows]

Good stuff,

I could add to that 'react without thinking' to also react without form. As in every situation is unique and you allow yourself to react accordingly without forcing any specific technique or following any specific form. Because you understand the principles behind the technique you don't have to perform it exactly as you practiced it before. This is also void applied to combat, void of form and no mind.

Great, but not exactly what I'm looking for, I'm interested in the use of FORM IS VOID in relation to philosophy of life in general. As a tool for altering perception.

Sorry, just saw this.

I guess I look at it the same way. If we assume that A, B, and C are how we deal with life, and look to A, B, and C to do all the work, but we are unaware of what it is we are applying A, B, and C to, we might meander through life all right, but we won't be engaging life.

If A, B, and C are what we use because life gives us circumstances that we engage that they work well for, and we cultivate them based on engaging life, then they will be better tools that are well applied to life.

I always liked the butcher story in Zhuangzi. The butcher doesn't cut meat better than others because he has made a method that the meat cannot resist, but because he cuts the meat exactly where it can best be cut. His form does not exist in him, it is merely what cutting meat requires. Engaged in the act, others see his skill as about him, but he might suggest others merely look at the meat, where the sinew is, where the bone is, and point out that his form could not differ from their reality and still be called skill and cultivation.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Good stuff,

I could add to that 'react without thinking' to also react without form. As in every situation is unique and you allow yourself to react accordingly without forcing any specific technique or following any specific form. Because you understand the principles behind the technique you don't have to perform it exactly as you practiced it before. This is also void applied to combat, void of form and no mind.

Now that is quite an interesting idea that I had not considered. It seems to be undeniably correct.



Great, but not exactly what I'm looking for, I'm interested in the use of FORM IS VOID in relation to philosophy of life in general. As a tool for altering perception.

Is this a nature of reality problem? If so, I wonder of some f the basic philosophies of the west like Essentialism and Realism could be of assistance. There are several other philosophies that try to inform us about the nature of reality.

[RenDaHai]

Yes in a way it is a nature of reality question,

But I feel it is not useful to consider reality as anything other than real. So really I suppose the realisation effects the way we choose to perceive reality. After all our knowledge of everything is subject to our state of awareness and our ability to perceive things. Form is Void would seem to be an answer, a realisation about perception, but no matter how many times I consider it, and I have answers, it does not give me that 'Eurika' I'm looking for. So I don't think I'm looking at it from all the angles I should be, which is why it helps to get as many perspectives as possible. Thanks to everyone who contributes in any way. :)

[uki]

Form does not differ from the Void
And the Void does not differ from Form
Form is Void and Void is Form.means there is no fixed form... be like water - assume everything and nothing... be both real and an illusion... the form that can be named is not the true form. :p