PDA

View Full Version : What is Chop Choy?



mantis boxer
08-10-2000, 11:26 PM
What is Chop Choy? How do you say it in English?

MIA
08-10-2000, 11:53 PM
I believe 'Chop Choy' is an elementary Qixing Tanglangquan form. It is also pronounced 'Cha Chui' in Mandarin.

Chop / Cha = verb: thrust; insert.

Choy/ Chui = verb: pound; strike; blow.

In any case, I could be wrong about this form because of the Cantonese.

[This message has been edited by MIA (edited 08-11-2000).]

loki
08-11-2000, 07:25 AM
Mantis Boxer, I actually just posted this for you on Mants7's post ( concerning Paul Eng's books ). Anyway, we translate it as Stabbing Fist. It is considered an elementary form and is usually taught as the 4th or 5th form in the system but this can vary from school to school. Very direct, strong and practical. Not really considered a pure mantis form but rather adopted from another system into the mantis curriculum.

------------------
NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

RochSevenStarMantis
08-12-2000, 06:50 PM
Chop choy is a Long Fist form that was adapted in to the 7 Star System,along with Say lo Bung Da.
Chop Choy is translated as Thrust Hammer, which is the main emphasis of the form.
Roch7StarMantis

loki
08-13-2000, 12:59 AM
Thrust Hammer?...hhmmnn http://216.219.234.88/forum/roundtable/confused.gif

Peace

------------------
NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

mantis boxer
08-13-2000, 01:19 AM
Spear hand! Spear hand adopted into the systrem? It seems to follow many of the mantis characteristics. Four direction attack doesn't. I can see why that one is not a true mantis form but spear hand? It has sections in it that are repeated in Goose Palm, White ape steals the peach and Plum blossom fist. So how is it adopted? I see it as a true mantis form.

MIA
08-13-2000, 07:11 AM
What can you really consider a true 'mantis' form when the style itself is made up of 17 Nothern Styles (plus the mantis hand)?

loki
08-13-2000, 08:59 AM
Good point. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

------------------
NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

mantis boxer
08-13-2000, 01:21 PM
I consider forms that follow the basic combinatiosn to be true mantis forms. Steals the peach, bong bo, the 3 plum blossoms, essentials, spear hand, 18 ancestors, long form, short form etc. 4 Direction attack looks nothing like mantis and has the outside crescent kicks which never appears in any of the other forms. It is highly influenced by northern shaolin.

RochSevenStarMantis
08-13-2000, 05:17 PM
The word hand in Chinese is "sao" not Choy.The word spear and thrust would be the same meaning. If you look at Lee Kam Wing's site the closest interpretation is Thrust Hammer. It is a Chang Chuan Tong Long (Long Fist Mantis) form that was adopted into the seven star system.
The word hammer meaning "hammer fist"
RochSevenStarMantis

MIA
08-13-2000, 07:00 PM
´¡ ´¨

loki
08-14-2000, 04:26 AM
The outside crescent kick as well as many other advanced kicks appear in many of the mantis forms, ex., "Small tiger and Goose" or "Continuous Brocade Weaving".

Hammer fist is called Pek Choy ( cantonese ).

Peace

------------------
NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[This message has been edited by loki (edited 08-14-2000).]

mantis boxer
08-14-2000, 04:57 AM
You must be referring to the CCM lineage of mantis. My WHF lineage does have outside crescent kicks except for that one form.

loki
08-14-2000, 03:03 PM
Hhmmm?....

------------------
NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

RochSevenStarMantis
08-15-2000, 06:52 AM
Pek Choy does not mean Hammer Fist, it means chopping fist,again a misinterpretation of the actual characters.
Choy does mean fist, but it also means hammer(like for hitting nails in). The characters for Chop Choy mean "Thrust Hammer". You have to have someone interpret the actual characters, not read the Pin Yin.
My suggestion, is to go to Master Lee Kam Wing's Site, print the page, and have someone who can read Chinese tell you what it means.
RochSevenStarMantis

loki
08-15-2000, 10:02 AM
Roch, you are 100% correct. Pek does mean to chop. The only reason I used the term hammer is because the motion of the arm resembles thatof the hammer strike which is the way it is known in many other systems. The combination of GWA, TONG, PEK is a good example of this.

Peace

------------------
NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

LawClansman
08-16-2000, 11:06 AM
Rochsevenstarmantis,

The term "hammer fist" is a karate term not a term used in the Chinese styles traditionaly. Some have adopted the name because it is easy to relate to the movement. However the term "pek choy" (chopping strike)is the proper term for this strike in not only mantis but Chinese martial arts in general. (Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut, Long fist etc.)

The Characters for hammer and beat can be confused by someone translating them. But the radicals are different. The Chop in "Chop Choy" uses the hand radical and means to beat. The hand radical implies something done with the hand. So a really literal translation of Chop Choy would be "inserting the (hand) beat" ie.punch. It means to strike and refers to punching. The terms "tau sum choy" (stealing heart punch) Tung Choy( reverse style punch) also use this "choy" character and have nothing to do with a hammering action. These terms are used in the Wong Hon Fun book "Chop Choy".

Furthermore, even if you were correct about the translation, you would still be wrong about the technique. In the Wong Hon Fun book on chop choy, the technique of landing in a horse stance with a "thrusting hammer strike" as you say is NEVER called "choy" in the book. it is calles pek (to chop) in a downward fashion. This is in the book and is easily comfirmed. In fact the term "hammer" is not used at all in the book for anything.


Finally, http://northernmantis.com
is Sifu Tony Chuy's site. It clearly states in Chinese and English Stabbing Fist Form.

Please note I used only Wong Hong Fun references so as not to confuse the issue. I am a practitioner of the Chiu Chi Man liniage of course. But since you have replied as a Wong Hon Fun liniagepractitioner, I used his book as the reference. However, it is the same form as the one we practice.

I agree with you that "spear hand" is probably the worst translation. The verb "spear" or action of spearing is easily confused with the noun spear. and spear hand implies that you are spearing with the fingertips as in Wing Chun's form Biu Jee.

You are also correct that this form was adopted from longfist into the Seven Star system. In order to keep this set separate from the other mantis sets, students learning Chop Choy were not allowed to end the set in "Tong Long Bo Sim" or mantis catching a cicada. Or the Tiu Sao (flicking hand) postures common to mantis sets. To this date it is still practiced that way and ends in a riding tiger stance with a hak fu tau sum choy (Black tiger stealing the heart punch).




------------------
Sifu Carl

RochSevenStarMantis
08-16-2000, 10:16 PM
Sifu Carl,
First off, I did not say anywhere that I was a WHF practitioner.
The characters that I had translated were from the form list I was given by LKW. LKW also calls the form "Thrust Hammer".The characters on the list are clearly "Thrust Hammer" the choy character used is clearly "Hammer". Perhaps the list is incorrect?
I do realize that choy does mean "punch" but it also does mean "hammer" the difference being the characters. I can only go by the characters in front of me. The word thrust and stab could be interpreted the same.
You are clearly the authority here, no sense in me debating with you. I posted mearly to say that the form CHOP CHOY does not mean Spear Hand.
Rochsevenstarmantis

[This message has been edited by RochSevenStarMantis (edited 08-17-2000).]

RochSevenStarMantis
08-16-2000, 10:28 PM
Sifu Carl,
I have never seen WHF's book on Chop Choy, and I am sure he did not call the Pek Choy a Chop Choy anywhere in the book as you clearly stated. Taken the Literal translation of the Characters I was given, it was my best assumption that technique was the emphasis of the form.
Rochsevenstarmantis

LawClansman
08-17-2000, 09:15 AM
Rochsevenstarmantis,

Sorry about the mistake of calling you Wong Hon Fun lineage.I meant no disrespect by it at all though. I knew Wong Hon Fun when he was alive and can attest to his excellent skill. And I hold him in the highest regard.

I have not seen the Lee Kam Wing web site with Chinese characters. Only english. Where is it located.I would appreciate the reference.

I have Lee Kam Wing's kuen po for most of his forms and the chop choy he uses there is not the hammer character. Must be a mix up.

I can see that you do your homework and appreciate your input.



------------------
Sifu Carl

RochSevenStarMantis
08-17-2000, 01:32 PM
Sifu Carl,
I missed meeting you and your Sifu last year by a couple of hours while at Sifu Ortiz's school for the LKW Seminar. I will be up for the week again next month, I hope to make it to meet you this year, I have heard alot of good stuff about you from SIfu Ortiz. If you go to this site, there is a link to LKW's web site http://www.itswa.freeserve.co.uk/7star_homepage.htm
Please get back to me about this. Great subject. I have been working very hard over the last year to create a Site for Mantis Practitioners with a complete breakdown of the whole system. I would like to start with as few mistakes as possible. A good friend of mine is from Hong Kong, a martial artist/chinese teacher has been helping me translate all the characters.
Rochsevenstarmantis

Qi Xing Tong Long
08-24-2000, 08:40 PM
Hello Albright, Sifu:

Hope things are going well for you and best of luck on your new kwoon. On the subject of "Chop Choy" I don't want to get on the subject of it's translation, but more on the ending part of the form itself. When I was taught the form many years ago, we were taught also to end the form with the "hak fu tau sum choy" (black tiger stealing heart punch). But when Lee Kam Wing, Sifu was here at my kwoon last year, myself and other Sifu's from around the country got together and basically did the Chop Choy form for LKW.

Then, when all of us were done showing him our Chop Choy version, which was not that much different from anyone there. LKW, Sifu said that the ending of the form was not done that way with the "hak fu tau sum choy", but, with the "tong long bow sim" (mantis catches cicada). This is not to state that the way we did it is wrong, just different.

We as 7-Star Mantis Sifu's should be teaching the form sets the same way as it is done in Hong Kong. I, know that every Sifu has their own way of interpreting a forms techniques (applications), but, that is different in doing the set it self.

My conclusion to all this, is something you said last year to me when I was visiting you at your kwoon, "All Sifu's teach different due, to the time frame in which the individual got to train with his Sifu" (i.e. when the Sifu was young vs. when he is older). One thing I have to say to you, Albright, Sifu, is that you have helped me understand and look at mantis in a different prospective, thank you very much for that.

Peace
Ortiz, Sifu

------------------
Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy

word
08-25-2000, 12:27 PM
The form finishes with black tiger steals the heart. You then stomp and change direction with the mantis catches the cicada.

Qi Xing Tong Long
08-27-2000, 05:11 AM
The form might end in the way you say, from your line of mantis, but we are from the Chiu Chi Man line and I was taught the other way also, which is the way it's done in Hong Kong in the Chin Woo.

This is just a matter of symantics, that's all. to grow as a martial artist you must be willing to open your mind to new thoughts.

Peace

------------------
Ortiz Northern Shaolin Temple 7-Star Praying Mantis Chinese Boxing Academy