Gong Bu and Belly Question

[Eugene]

Hey all,

I have a question about the gong bu in tai chi. There are many gong bu`s, whats your idea about the back leg. Stretch it or not ? I see some that bend it alot, or have a high stance, stretch it, and all.

Is it true that when stretching the back leg, you block your vains, and chi ?

When I push after patting the horse, I seem to generate more power when I strecht my back leg, and turn my toes forward at the same time.

The Belly question,

In one week I met two men, who told me that because of doing Tai Chi, they seem to have gotton a big belly, and because they breath deeper and sink more.

Evereything goes down, this one, when he did karate has a flat belly and when doing tai chi, he looks almost pregnant.

Any experience with that ?

Peace Eugene

[Three Harmonies]

"Stretching" the back leg will not cut off "qi" or anything.

Big tummies are because men hold their fat in the torso (unlike women who tend to collect around the hip and thighs). It has nothing to do with anything other than typically being overweight.

JAB

[stma]

It is not always about fat, particularly in Taiji. Too much emphasis on relaxing the belly can eventually cause a significant loss of muscle tone if not supplemented with a normal abdominal workout. The spine, ribs, and pelvis are bone and can effectively contain the organs. Without strong abs, the organs will tend to hang out the front. It may not be fat, but organs moving with gravity.

[RenDaHai]

Gong Bu in Taiji is the same as it should be in Shaolin an others.

Typically the back leg should be as straight as can be, this does not hinder qi. Some people when they release certain types of explosive power they straighten the leg for the instant of the strike and then relax it back to a more circular frame after. This is ok too, but for certain strikes. Typically Taiji relies on its structure and as such the back leg being straight makes the structure significantly stronger. As does having the back foot pointing straight forewards forming a triangle with the front foot which is at about 40 degrees. The back foot is supposed to be like this , but most people don't bother because it requires power twisted inside the hips and if under trained is uncomfortable. The next important point is the 'lunge' that is the small movement of your front knee moving foreward upon delivery of the technique, which adds significantly to the weight of the technique and the range.

A good way to train this is as I explained to you about Wugulun 'shen fa'. Play with a taiji technique, keep you arms locked in shape and don't move them, then try to strike something using only the power and structure of your stance. So with your arms unmoving hit the target by bending your knee foreward, using torso movement and learn to rely on the structure generated by having the back leg straight. If you can get the technique powerful and fluid without any arm movement, the power will be all the more when you do use the arms.

The belly is not important at this point.

[Eugene]

Thx Three Harmonies , stma and RenDaHai

Good to know that stretching the back leg does not hold or hinder the qi, ive seen the gong bu`s of wugulun, and they really twist there hips and shoulder all in.

I will practice some more of these things you mention, RenDaHai.

[JAZA]

Big bellys are just excuses for lazy men.
I've met Chen Xia Wang and Chen Xiao Xing and none of them show a big belly.
In tai chi you need to be relaxed but your muscle must be toned.

[MartialDev]

http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/handsome-lads-dont-practice-taiji/

It is a muscle tone issue, not a fat issue or a strength issue. Yes, Taiji causes it. Some people never encounter it, because their practice lacks a particular quality or quantity (e.g. relaxation), or because the other aspects of their personal exercise routine compensate for it.

Some people assume that every aspect of Taiji must have been designed by a cadre of scientists, in order to maximize combat power and/or beauty. Or at least that the original Taiji was like this, before it was "watered down" (and until their own master rediscovered it). All just another martial arts fantasy.

[DMK]

Gong bu rear leg in taijiquan should not be straight. I modern compulsories do have straight back legs, but traditonal students will not.

[Skip J.]

http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/handsome-lads-dont-practice-taiji/

It is a muscle tone issue, not a fat issue or a strength issue. Yes, Taiji causes it. Some people never encounter it, because their practice lacks a particular quality or quantity (e.g. relaxation), or because the other aspects of their personal exercise routine compensate for it.

Some people assume that every aspect of Taiji must have been designed by a cadre of scientists, in order to maximize combat power and/or beauty. Or at least that the original Taiji was like this, before it was "watered down" (and until their own master rediscovered it). All just another martial arts fantasy.
Thanks for that! I remember it from before, and enjoyed it again....

That's exactly why we can't get the younger KF guys to do taijiquan.... it just don't look cool....

For myself, I actually trimmed up to the level I'm at, but don't expect to lose anymore.... It's comforting to think it's not fat...

[MartialDev]

Some people are also fat, of course. But you only have to push, squeeze or punch the belly to find out what's what. At least one of the top Chen family guys has a belly like this.

[KC Elbows]

Gong bu rear leg in taijiquan should not be straight. I modern compulsories do have straight back legs, but traditonal students will not.

I was thinking the same thing, but if the toe is forward on the rear foot, one is forced straightening to get the desired results, imo...

But if the toe isn't forward, it's a different animal.

[DMK]

The rear leg should be outward slightly about 30 degrees such as empty stance or t stance depending on your school. The back leg should not be forward .Hmm maybe thats why I am seeing so many people doing taiji high . You have to learn how to sit low and strengthen your legs.

[DMK]

Without the proper stances in taiji you will not be able to distinguish between full and empty. I can tell you that if someone is suffering from knee problems check there foot work and 99% it is due to improper foot work

[RenDaHai]

I can't really emphasize how much that the back leg must be straight in gong bu. That is the essence of the stance. that and the lunge. I am not talking over extension looks like your knee is broken straight, but it should be forced straight. With enough flexibility this is not difficult.

The back foot being straight is the old gong bu as its written down and as it is practiced in ZhanZhuang. The hips can still be lowered and should be, but it is very difficult at first. In reality it is almost impossible to maintain this gong bu during actual form, and yeah about 30 degrees seems acceptable, but that doesn't change the formula. The rear foot is foreward the big toe approx in line with the big toe on the other foot, a little space between. This way you form a triangle between the back and front feet. This is an important structual point. The second triangle being that of the straight back leg with the front leg, the third being inside the font leg, knee directly over toes forming a triangle with the foot and shin.

THis is the formula and theory, however in reality due to the nature of taiji's form it is not possible to maintain. Why? Because often the feet will grip the floor in the previous stance and you will move into the technique Without the feet rotating since they are gripping the floor. In this situation the foot of gong bu may not be foreward at all, maybe even completely horizontal, however it doesn't change the fact that from this position the leg should force straight whcih gives you the essential structure to give your technique power. Taiji after all relies on Chao li not Ben li (not strength but using structure and technique and the 'stealing' opponants power).

This is disregarded by some people who use explosive power because when releasing your own power it is less essential to have the leg straight. Also in taiji there are stances which could be considered half ma bu half gong bu, in these the leg is not straight, but it is also not gong bu.

In reality there are no exact stances, the stance emphasizes principles to teach you. For example Xu bu emphasizes that the front leg be empty. In fact you can stand in such a way that from outside it looks like you are standing casually, but because you are mindfully keeping the front leg empty, you are in xu bu. For gong bu the essence is the straight back leg and the lunging front leg, you can form it for any orientation of the feet, at many angles.

[woliveri]

"Stretching" the back leg will not cut off "qi" or anything.


Agreed. Stretching is actually very good for Qi flow.



Big tummies are because men hold their fat in the torso (unlike women who tend to collect around the hip and thighs). It has nothing to do with anything other than typically being overweight.

JAB

This depends on whether or not the man practices qi building neigong exercises. One of my teachers in China, a neigong master, has developed, pijiu du.. (beer belly) from his neigong practice. Filled with Qi.

(he doesn't drink beer at all).

[Three Harmonies]

"Filled with Qi" eh :rolleyes:

[woliveri]

"Filled with Qi" eh :rolleyes:

Yep, pretty much expected that.

[Three Harmonies]

Explain, don't just whine. You want people to take your comments seriously, use something solid to back them up. Mystical mumbo jumbo heresay does no good for the arts, nor their image in general.
How do you know it is qi? What is it filling?
JAB

[woliveri]

who's whinning.. ??

Since you seem interested I can tell you about his practice. It only involves breathing exercises. Rapid breathing exercises coordinated with arm movements.
In the morning, when he practices, his stomach inflates from the air going inside.. over the course of the day it goes back down a bit. Over time he has developed his stomach but more importantly, through this training, an iron body. He practices with Trees (hitting with body, arms, etc). He practices a true gong in the Chinese sense. No practice of mma, bjj, bagua, xingyi, or other but I definately wouldn't want to get hit by him. Very tough guy. On top of all that he wouldn't take any payment from me what so ever. Great guy.

[Three Harmonies]

Okay, thanks for sharing all that. But yet you have not answered the question; what exactly gets filled with what? Air in his stomach; does that mean he swallows air and holds it in his stomach?

JAB

[woliveri]

First exercise breathing is in and out through the nose. Second exercise is breathing out through the nose and in through the mouth. First exercise develops "turtle back", second exercise develops "frog" chest and creates the large stomach. These two are the core of what he taught me, then there are several other exercises in the set.

The closest way I can explain it is forced hyperventilating, especially in the first exercise.


Air in his stomach; does that mean he swallows air and holds it in his stomach?

No, his exercises are not like that but I have learned exercises from other sources which do something similar only at the lower Dantian, not Stomach.

There are many exercises from Chinese sources which use similar practices. Traditional Chinese Martial arts, as I'm sure you know, have a load of these exercises, or gongs, which are not readily taught to students.

[SPJ]

in ba gua

your bow and arrow stance would include slightly bent knee on your rear leg.

depending the posture and power expression, we even have half bow and arrow stance with 2 feet closer.

stretching the knee of the rear leg all the way all the time may not be good

there are always pros and cons, so depending on the postures---