Question about sparring

[Hitman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6OXjtOyYlQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGP0AM14F0&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmPJF09zcUM&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTNjxNhuS1k&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDlJlkm92w8&NR=1&feature=fvwp


Dear all,
Some of those people were using the techniques they have learnt in their classes in those (light contact) sparring matches. However, I noticed that some people from those organisations were fighting like amateur kick boxers (on youtube), when they put on gloves and protective clothing in full contact sparring matches. They seem to have forgotten everything they had learnt.
My question is if they could apply their techniques in light contact sparring matches or against their fellow classmates in light contact sparring matches, then how come they abandoned their techniques when fighting in full contact sparring matches?
This does not make any sense.

Thank you very much

[SAAMAG]

Because kickboxing is the most natural way for the body to fight. It doesn't use any convoluted movements, doesn't mimic animals, and it doesn't follow preset methods based on theory.

That said, it could also be that the folks just don't perform well under pressure. A lot of folks are great at applying their techniques against little to moderate pressure, but when given REAL pressure they collapse either because their skill level isn't high enough, or because the technique or theory is flawed.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.obsidianfields.com/lj/ObviousTroll.jpg

[David Jamieson]

http://www.obsidianfields.com/lj/ObviousTroll.jpg

lol. +1 qft etc...

[SAAMAG]

BUT he said thank you very much at the end which implies sincerity!!! :p

[David Jamieson]

BUT he said thank you very much at the end which implies sincerity!!! :p

However all his videos were of kempo and karate fights. point sparring. he actually didn't even post any good kickboxing videos. so, we can assume he's trolling seeing as he doesn't seem to understand what it is he is badmouthing.

anyway, hitman is one more of kfm's lame ass trolls that's been hanging around too long.

we have a habit feeding them here though. For the laughs. :D

[hskwarrior]

doesn't mimic animals,

When practicing Tiger Techniques, i wonder if people would actually growl inside thinking they have the concept? LOL

Cool thing about animal styles, you can actually become the animal without becoming the animal....:D

[bawang]

real kung fu sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeoLqus4CB0

[hskwarrior]

Bawang (dave) do you know how i know you're gay? LOL

[taai gihk yahn]

Bawang (dave) do you know how i know you're gay? LOL

you do know that bawang and Dave are not the same person, right? (I've communicated off forum w/bawang via e-mail, he's in Toronto)
it's just one of HW108's running commentaries where he keeps making that claim;

[David Jamieson]

We do have more than a few trolls under this bridge. really gets crowded sometimes.

One day, I had to check the addres bar because I thought I was at trollshido! :p

and yeah, ross is in new york stinky, while bawang is a homeless guy with an iphone on spadina and dundas in toronto.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you do know that bawang and Dave are not the same person, right? (I've communicated off forum w/bawang via e-mail, he's in Toronto)
it's just one of HW108's running commentaries where he keeps making that claim;

Actually, he is in Guelph, a "suburb" of Toronto, in a manner of speaking.
He is as much Dave as I am, or you are or Frank is.
Then again....

[hskwarrior]

you do know that bawang and Dave are not the same person, right? (I've communicated off forum w/bawang via e-mail, he's in Toronto)
it's just one of HW108's running commentaries where he keeps making that claim;

It's all good. I can't lie though, i find it funny that his accent gets lost at times, while other times he sounds like he's trying to be a fob.

all in all, it keeps me from being bored hahahaha

[David Jamieson]

Actually, he is in Guelph, a "suburb" of Toronto, in a manner of speaking.
He is as much Dave as I am, or you are or Frank is.
Then again....

I thought I was Dave?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought I was Dave?

We're all Daves.

*cue song, "these are the daves I know"*

[KC Elbows]

Dave's not here, man.

[MightyB]

These are the Dave's I know I Know
These are the Dave's I know...

http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/45277/detail/

[David Jamieson]

♫♪But we come from different mom's♫♪

[RenDaHai]

I think this thread is actually a really good question in principle. I have seen many kung fu schools where peoples technical skills are good, but then they strap up and they literally just use kickboxing, even when they have never really trained any.

Obviously this is instantly flawed. As soon as they throw any a boxing style attack, if it is palmed and countered, then the attacker is in a bad situation. Because from their current position none of their kung fu guarding techniques will work because they have already violated their principles by throwing that style of punch in the first place. The only way for them to defend themselves is by using a boxing style defense, which of course they are woefully under practiced in. So why do they use the Boxing style attack in the first place?

I think it is because kung fu tends to have less attacking strategies and more in defense.

The situation of the ring is very bizarre. Because you are forced into attacking frequently.

In all the real dangerous fights I have experienced (been in or watched) there has always been a clear cut attacker and defender. And it always starts from an unexpected position, as in never from two guys bouncing around on their toes squaring up. Those are the fights that can be avoided. The nasty ones tend to start from someone getting hit unexpectedly.

Anyway there is always someone relentlessly attacking. This doesn't happen in ring fights, if someone is defended they will retreat momentarily and rethink their strategy. In actual combat this doesn't happen. If their attack failed they (the attacker) tends to attack again and again. Its these situations where kung fu technique becomes more useful. But in the unnatural situation of bouncing around in a ring being forced to attack kung fu fast becomes less useful than more kickboxing like styles.

I think this is why kung fu finds it hard to find a place in modern style matches. Because it is simply not designed for this type of situation.

So I think kung fu sparring is best done from contact, like beginning with your hands crossed. If you made people do this I will bet they will use much more kung fu technique than if forced to bounce around facing each other.

[pazman]

http://a.imagehost.org/0713/spartacus1.jpg
I am Dave.

[Scott R. Brown]

Bawang (dave) do you know how i know you're gay? LOL

Cuz you live in S.F. and you are surrounded by them?:eek:


you do know that bawang and Dave are not the same person, right? (I've communicated off forum w/bawang via e-mail, he's in Toronto)
it's just one of HW108's running commentaries where he keeps making that claim;

There you go with your wild, conspiratory and imaginary, "They live in two different countries!", theories again!

I suppose just because I have an e-mail address in Australia, one is Transylvania and one in Iceland, I am NOT outside your house right now watching you floss your teeth?


He is as much Dave as I am, or you are or Frank is.
Then again....

http://www.joplinglobeonline.com/blogs/scott_blog/images/kirk.jpg
I AM DAVE......


AND SO IS MY WIFE.........



http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/uss_enterprise.jpg
.....THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE

[TenTigers]

I think it is because kung fu tends to have less attacking strategies and more in defense.

The situation of the ring is very bizarre. Because you are forced into attacking frequently.

In all the real dangerous fights I have experienced (been in or watched) there has always been a clear cut attacker and defender.
I think this is why kung fu finds it hard to find a place in modern style matches. Because it is simply not designed for this type of situation.



Hmmm, sorry but I really can't agree with that statement. The Kung-Fu styles that I've been exposed to, Hung-Ga,Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun, Bak Mei, Southern Mantis, Northern Shaolin, are all extremely aggressive, attack oriented, and relentless.
I don't know anyone who has ever won a fight by being defensive.
Which Kung-Fu styles were you referring to?

[RenDaHai]

@TenTigers , Most kung fu styles are Certainly aggressive, and relentless

However what I am referring to is that in my experience kung fu techniques tend to like to 'bridge' before attacking. As in there are not so many attacks that straight away attack a person whose guard is up, usually some sort of capture, bridge, contact is initiated before the attack, whatever it is. This is a defensive attacking strategy, its not like charging the opponent with strikes.

This is not so easy to do in a situation like a ring fight. Often you are forced into throwing many 'testing' attacks before you can land something good, where as in the classic kung fu match sparring is more decisive since parrying and capturing can be that bit more technical. So when full contact sparring with gloves in a large arena people tend to adopt kickboxing like styles because a lot of kungfu strategy is not designed for such a situation.

Of course all kung fu contains the same standard repertoire of punches and kicks but in the ring situation you are forced to use them in a different way than you would in more Kung fu oriented sparring, or in reality.

[David Jamieson]

sparring = measured responses in a learning environment.

fighting = not that

lol.

My rule is this personally.

If you find yourself in a physical conflict with someone who is not a trained fighter, enter fast and dominate quickly, be hard, be relentless. But, have mercy (don't kill the guy, maul him)

If you find yourself in a physical conflict with someone who is apparently trained, use your own training to the best of your ability.

I think we need to recognize that in kungfu, the shapes are gross and adaptable. Long arm can shorten. Arcs can be wide or narrow, forces can be hard or withdrawn somewhat and so on. The quickest most efficient attacks are virtually always the simplest ones.

Movies have spoiled the minds of some people in what they regard as fighting obviously. If you think you can fight while spending energy that is not used in attacking or defending, then you probably believe that it really is Britney Spears singing at her concerts while she dances around. (Everyone in the business knows that you cannot effectively sing while vigorously dancing and therefore the entire show is a lip-sync and all big stars do it to the last.

:)

[MightyB]

@TenTigers , Most kung fu styles are Certainly aggressive, and relentless

However what I am referring to is that in my experience kung fu techniques tend to like to 'bridge' before attacking. As in there are not so many attacks that straight away attack a person whose guard is up, usually some sort of capture, bridge, contact is initiated before the attack, whatever it is. This is a defensive attacking strategy, its not like charging the opponent with strikes.

This is not so easy to do in a situation like a ring fight. Often you are forced into throwing many 'testing' attacks before you can land something good, where as in the classic kung fu match sparring is more decisive since parrying and capturing can be that bit more technical. So when full contact sparring with gloves in a large arena people tend to adopt kickboxing like styles because a lot of kungfu strategy is not designed for such a situation.

Of course all kung fu contains the same standard repertoire of punches and kicks but in the ring situation you are forced to use them in a different way than you would in more Kung fu oriented sparring, or in reality.

I know exactly what you're talking about. The problem is also intensified by a reactive drilling philosophy that I find in a lot of TCMA. That's where you have a person punch or kick or whatever and then train with the emphasis on the kung fu counter. Eventually students develop a fear of attacking because it's constantly drilled that way.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by : Scott R. Brown

Cuz you live in S.F. and you are surrounded by them?

Try again. but chec this, i wouldn't be surprised if you had more in your town than i have in mine.

[Scott R. Brown]

Try again. but chec this, i wouldn't be surprised if you had more in your town than i have in mine.

LOL!!! You have more in one block than there are people in my whole town!!:eek:

[hskwarrior]

LOL!!! You have more in one block than there are people in my whole town!!

and wouldn't you be shocked if everyone in your town were Fudgepackers!!!!! :eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

and wouldn't you be shocked if everyone in your town were Fudgepackers!!!!! :eek:

It wouldn't bother me in the least as long as they leave me out of it!:)

[hskwarrior]

Now thats what im saying. go 'head be gay....just don't let me see it. hahaha

[TenTigers]

Ren De Hai: However what I am referring to is that in my experience kung fu techniques tend to like to 'bridge' before attacking. As in there are not so many attacks that straight away attack a person whose guard is up, usually some sort of capture, bridge, contact is initiated before the attack, whatever it is. This is a defensive attacking strategy, its not like charging the opponent with strikes..

any time you connect with your opponent you are bridging.
A strike is bridging.
If I charge into you with strikes, I am bridging, and will then have the capture.
I certainly will not stretch my hand out in kiu-sao. That stuff is for poseurs, magazine articles, and movies.
I have studied several arts-all known for bridging-none of them do what you described. In fact, I have never seen anyone do this, except in movies and poorly written articles, and schools that are...questionable.

Ren De Hai: So when full contact sparring with gloves in a large arena people tend to adopt kickboxing like styles because a lot of kungfu strategy is not designed for such a situation.

Gloves make no difference, except for grabbing. (now with MMA gloves, grabbing is easy) Most trapping is done with the bridge from the wrist, down. Not with the hands. Strikes are strikes.

Ren De Hai: Of course all kung fu contains the same standard repertoire of punches and kicks but in the ring situation you are forced to use them in a different way than you would in more Kung fu oriented sparring, or in reality

um..huh?? How in the heck would you use them differently? You are in a ring with some guy trying desperately to take your head off, and punch your face into chopmeat.
Sorry dude, but what on Earth are you talking about?


and...here comes the $64,000 question:
What have you studied? What is your experience?

[RenDaHai]

@TenTigers

Calm down, lets have a discussion here.

The point I want to get accross is this; The situation of two people fighting in a ring (regardless of rules,gloves etc) is different from the situation Wushu is designed for.

Also lots of people who practice Wushu practice it only as a reactionary style (as in the opponent inputs an action and you react to this action rather than initiating the action against an unmoving opponent). I don't say this is correct or best, but that is the way a lot of wushu is trained. It is summed up in a classic kung fu expression used in China frequently accross many styles: 'Di bu dong, wo bu dong. Di yi dong, wo xian dong.' This means 'if the enemy does not move, I do not move, Just As the enemy moves then I make my move'.

THUS when a lot of these wushu guys are faced with full contact sparring, they find themselves for the first time in the situation where the opponent is NOT always giving them attacks to defend and they themselves must attack against a fully guarded opponent. Of course they are unprepared for this and resort to doing the same kind of attacks they usually give people in class when they are playing the part of the 'bad guy'. During training however they have never actually tried to make these kind of strikes land, so they are unprepared. Even when experienced they still tend to use more kick boxing style attacks than their traditional style. THIS is the original point of the thread. And I think it is true that many wuhsu people do this. I am not saying it should be one way or the other, just that it does happen.

Now to retort to your comments:

TENTIGERS:any time you connect with your opponent you are bridging.
A strike is bridging.
If I charge into you with strikes, I am bridging, and will then have the capture.
I certainly will not stretch my hand out in kiu-sao. That stuff is for poseurs, magazine articles, and movies.
I have studied several arts-all known for bridging-none of them do what you described. In fact, I have never seen anyone do this, except in movies and poorly written articles, and schools that are...questionable.

ME; This is true, even a Jab is a bridge. But it is very different in a ring because in the ring the opponent may retreat from your jabs and dance around you many times. This tends not to happen in combat or in wushu sparring where the players tend not to seperate and bounce around each other, the first jab will make a lasting bridge and the combat will continue from this jab whether successful or not. There is not the second chance of backing away and trying again. Thus one is forced to deal with the situation created by this bridge rather than backing off and sidestepping a bit. This is one major way that combat is different from the ring, there is no second chance for the bridge. you have to deal with what happens. Oh and i never suggested using kiu sao or anything in particular. My point was about the way we attack in the ring is different.

TENTIGERS: Gloves make no difference, except for grabbing. (now with MMA gloves, grabbing is easy) Most trapping is done with the bridge from the wrist, down. Not with the hands. Strikes are strikes.

ME: Gloves make ALL the difference. A strike is a strike but they feel very different with and without gloves. Some bare hand strikes can be totally inneffective, some slip off the contors of the opponents face, some damage your hand more than the opponents face, some can cause devastating damage with only the lightest hit. All are less predictable than gloved hits. Gloves make Blocking completely different. Because of the size of them they are able to block things a bare hand wouldn't. They also can't enter spaces a bare hand could. As we mentioned grabbing is effected. When one is smacked in the face with gloves one tends to stand up to it, but when one is hit bare knuckle your head moves a lot further as a natural reaction. As does the opponent. You may find even a well landed jab makes them duck there head back almost as low as their knees. This makes your next move... different.

(on me saying in a ring strikes are used differently than in combat or kung fu sparring)
TENTIGERS: um..huh?? How in the heck would you use them differently? You are in a ring with some guy trying desperately to take your head off, and punch your face into chopmeat.
Sorry dude, but what on Earth are you talking about?

ME: Hmmm, As I mentioned above in a ring you are forced to use lots of testing strikes to 'open' your opponent. In reality you are more likely to be using them as a reaction to the opponents move than to be testing them against an opponents guard. This is a big difference.

MAIN POINT:
In RING combat one is forced to frequently attack the opponent to try to create an opening in his guard. This is a big part of the game. You end up trying and failing many times, backing off and circling. However in reality this is a situation that doesn't really happen. YOu are thrust into a situation where the 'opening' is already made. (i.e someone attacks you unexpectedly). Thus many Wushu guys practice exclusively for this situation, to defend from attacks. Thus when they go into a ring they are unprepared to attack the opponent lots of times looking for openings. So they use to them unfamiliar kickboxing techniques (which are more suited to this behaviour than wushu techniques) however a lot of them are no good at kickboxing since they train wushu. It creates a wierd situation, and that is the situation this thread was made to discuss. I'm not saying it should be one way or the other, just that this does happen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love bridges.
http://www.berro.com/funny_european_pictures/pont_neuf_bridge_funny_sexy_picture_of_a_french_cu ltural_attraction.jpg

[David Jamieson]

Nice one SR. :p

[RenDaHai]

@Sanjuro_Ronin

Quality bridge....I Like the ...er... contours.




and...here comes the $64,000 question:
What have you studied? What is your experience?[/B]

Began with Judo and TKD, then Wing Chun, then moved to Sanda and traditional northern Shaolin, with lots of others along the way. My style is northern Shaolin. I live in DengFeng in China and have since 2005.

[MightyB]

I agree with Ren Da Hai - TMA don't teach a formulated approach to attacking... not like sport MA. We're not talking about theory- we're talking fact - how many practice combinations, feinting, and footwork offensively where you're purposely creating openings on a skilled defensive opponent? It isn't practiced in non sport MA.

[TenTigers]

Calm down, lets have a discussion here.
don't get me wrong, I'm not upset, and I am all for a discussion.


Also lots of people who practice Wushu practice it only as a reactionary style (as in the opponent inputs an action and you react to this action rather than initiating the action against an unmoving opponent). I don't say this is correct or best, but that is the way a lot of wushu is trained. It is summed up in a classic kung fu expression used in China frequently accross many styles: 'Di bu dong, wo bu dong. Di yi dong, wo xian dong.' This means 'if the enemy does not move, I do not move, Just As the enemy moves then I make my move'.

We also have this saying as well. However, we say,"If you move, I hit first, and will not stop until there is death."
This describes intercepting the opponent's intent. Attack his attack, and continue attacking without let up, until he is defeated.
The way you interpet it, it is very defensive, however, our method is not.


THUS when a lot of these wushu guys are faced with full contact sparring, they find themselves for the first time in the situation where the opponent is NOT always giving them attacks to defend and they themselves must attack against a fully guarded opponent. Of course they are unprepared for this and resort to doing the same kind of attacks they usually give people in class when they are playing the part of the 'bad guy'. During training however they have never actually tried to make these kind of strikes land, so they are unprepared. Even when experienced they still tend to use more kick boxing style attacks than their traditional style. THIS is the original point of the thread. And I think it is true that many wuhsu people do this.

this is simply a product of unrealistic training methods and poor strategic thinking. Being "the bad guy," is what fighting-REAL FIGHTING, is all about.
It's simple physics. "An object (your opponent) in motion, will remain in motion, unless acted upon by an equal or greater (greater is prefferable) force."[/B

]Now to retort to your comments:

TENTIGERS:any time you connect with your opponent you are bridging.
A strike is bridging.
If I charge into you with strikes, I am bridging, and will then have the capture.
I certainly will not stretch my hand out in kiu-sao. That stuff is for poseurs, magazine articles, and movies.
I have studied several arts-all known for bridging-none of them do what you described. In fact, I have never seen anyone do this, except in movies and poorly written articles, and schools that are...questionable.

ME; This is true, even a Jab is a bridge. But it is very different in a ring because in the ring the opponent may retreat from your jabs and dance around you many times.
[B]This points to lack of closing skills.

This tends not to happen in combat or in wushu sparring where the players tend not to seperate and bounce around each other, the first jab will make a lasting bridge and the combat will continue from this jab whether successful or not. There is not the second chance of backing away and trying again. Thus one is forced to deal with the situation created by this bridge rather than backing off and sidestepping a bit. This is one major way that combat is different from the ring, there is no second chance for the bridge. you have to deal with what happens.

This soley depends on the fighter's methods. If you attack,close and continue, then ring or street, the end result is the same.

TENTIGERS: Gloves make no difference, except for grabbing. (now with MMA gloves, grabbing is easy) Most trapping is done with the bridge from the wrist, down. Not with the hands. Strikes are strikes.

ME: Gloves make ALL the difference. A strike is a strike but they feel very different with and without gloves. Some bare hand strikes can be totally inneffective, some slip off the contors of the opponents face, some damage your hand more than the opponents face, some can cause devastating damage with only the lightest hit. All are less predictable than gloved hits. Gloves make Blocking completely different. Because of the size of them they are able to block things a bare hand wouldn't. They also can't enter spaces a bare hand could. As we mentioned grabbing is effected. When one is smacked in the face with gloves one tends to stand up to it, but when one is hit bare knuckle your head moves a lot further as a natural reaction. As does the opponent. You may find even a well landed jab makes them duck there head back almost as low as their knees. This makes your next move... different.

Which simply means you need to adapt. But to make excuses is...innexcusable. We all recognize the difference between empty hand strikes and gloved strikes.
BTW-6oz gloves aren't that big and soft, You realize this, right?

(on me saying in a ring strikes are used differently than in combat or kung fu sparring)
TENTIGERS: um..huh?? How in the heck would you use them differently? You are in a ring with some guy trying desperately to take your head off, and punch your face into chopmeat.
Sorry dude, but what on Earth are you talking about?

ME: Hmmm, As I mentioned above in a ring you are forced to use lots of testing strikes to 'open' your opponent. In reality you are more likely to be using them as a reaction to the opponents move than to be testing them against an opponents guard. This is a big difference.

MAIN POINT:
In RING combat one is forced to frequently attack the opponent to try to create an opening in his guard. This is a big part of the game. You end up trying and failing many times, backing off and circling. However in reality this is a situation that doesn't really happen. YOu are thrust into a situation where the 'opening' is already made. (i.e someone attacks you unexpectedly). Thus many Wushu guys practice exclusively for this situation, to defend from attacks. Thus when they go into a ring they are unprepared to attack the opponent lots of times looking for openings. So they use to them unfamiliar kickboxing techniques (which are more suited to this behaviour than wushu techniques) however a lot of them are no good at kickboxing since they train wushu. It creates a wierd situation, and that is the situation this thread was made to discuss.

No. this makes some sense, ONLY if you are limited to jab, cross, uppercut and hook, and striking only to the head and front /side of torso.
There are many more options available in Kuoshu, Sanda,MMA, Chinese Continuous Controlled Contact Sparring, etc All of these are sport ring combat events.
There is one saying that holds true, no matter whether you are fighting in a ring or in the street.
"You don't fight HIS fight, you fight YOUR fight."
The only reason it creates a "wierd situation," is because you are still in the mindset that "You are forced to" do etc, etc. If they are using "unfamiliar techniques," then they entered a ring completely unprepared, and had no business being there.
You need to shift your perspective.

it really seems that you are just making excuses for inexperienced, untrained, unaware students going into a ring with no clue and getting clobbered.

again, what is your experience? What style do you study? Where are you getting these ideas from?
please don't take this as an attack on you personally. I have nothing against you.
I am just curious how you arrive at these conclusions.

[RenDaHai]

I agree with Ren Da Hai - TMA don't teach a formulated approach to attacking... not like sport MA. We're not talking about theory- we're talking fact - how many practice combinations, feinting, and footwork offensively where you're purposely creating openings on a skilled defensive opponent? It isn't practiced in non sport MA.

Wow, you summed up my whole post in one paragraph and said it better than i did!:)

I think this is the reason we see less Kung Fu in the big fighting competitions.

[TenTigers]

I agree with Ren Da Hai - TMA don't teach a formulated approach to attacking... not like sport MA. We're not talking about theory- we're talking fact - how many practice combinations, feinting, and footwork offensively where you're purposely creating openings on a skilled defensive opponent? It isn't practiced in non sport MA.

it soley depends on the teacher.
I've been in plenty of TCMA Kwoons that teach exactly this.
But, yeah, there are alot of crap schools out there that do not. Depends on the teacher.

[RenDaHai]

@TenTigers

But I'm not arguing with that. I'm not saying that Kung Fu CANNOT be used in ring fights. I'm saying the majority of it is not trained in this way. I'm not saying it should be one way or the other, but it is an interesting point.

ALso it doesn't neccesserily mean a school is bad if they don't teach you how to formulate attacks in this situation. Your ability to defend yourself is not soley dependant on this. Also for a lot of people they are more interested in other aspects of kung fu.

[TenTigers]

@TenTigers

But I'm not arguing with that. I'm not saying that Kung Fu CANNOT be used in ring fights. I'm saying the majority of it is not trained in this way. I'm not saying it should be one way or the other, but it is an interesting point.

ALso it doesn't neccesserily mean a school is bad if they don't teach you how to formulate attacks in this situation. Your ability to defend yourself is not soley dependant on this. Also for a lot of people they are more interested in other aspects of kung fu.
agreed.

so, now what? How would change this?

[SAAMAG]

I love bridges.
http://www.berro.com/funny_european_pictures/pont_neuf_bridge_funny_sexy_picture_of_a_french_cu ltural_attraction.jpg

This is one of those times you want to walk up and bump into her....from the backside....and nekkid.

[lkfmdc]

I love bridges.
http://www.berro.com/funny_european_pictures/pont_neuf_bridge_funny_sexy_picture_of_a_french_cu ltural_attraction.jpg

Has anyone seen the bridge? I'm just trying to find the bridge? Where is that confounded bridge? :D

[RenDaHai]

@TenTigers,

Good Question. I guess I wouldn't really,

I just think people need to be aware of these things. And be aware that martial arts cannot be compared just by their effectiveness at one type of game. A pure WC guy may not last long in a thai boxing arena and a thai boxer may not last long playing chi sao. And a real fight will not even be defined by the style Wc vs MuayThai, but by one mans intent against the other.

[MightyB]

agreed.

so, now what? How would change this?

Benny the Jet used to talk about "techniques in motion" drilling. Basically it's stringing together offensive attacking combos designed to create openings, and then drilling them. For instance, foot jab, feint power kick, left hook... etc. Use your own techniques and study the reactions they cause, then string a few simple combos together and drill them. Drill them not as a if he strikes - it's, if he's shelling up like a boxer, and he's running, you attack with this...

[TenTigers]

@TenTigers,

Good Question. I guess I wouldn't really,

I just think people need to be aware of these things. And be aware that martial arts cannot be compared just by their effectiveness at one type of game. A pure WC guy may not last long in a thai boxing arena and a thai boxer may not last long playing chi sao. And a real fight will not even be defined by the style Wc vs MuayThai, but by one mans intent against the other.
almost...
A WC guy who only plays against other WC guys, who does not look outside, become familiar with what's outside his small pond, will not fair well.
However, a WC guy who trains realistically, studies how a Muay Thai guy operates, strikes, kicks, clinches, and practices these techniques in order to understand them, and then defeat them, will prevail.

[Hitman]

Despite the attempts made by David Jamieson and Ikfmdc to destroy this thread. I did actually learnt something from it.



1) David and Ikfmdc - how about both of you stop acting like trolls and actually contribute something that is useful in this thread, e.g. post video clips of yourself fighting in any full contact tournament or any of the NHB tournament (UFC, cage fights, K1) you have entered, so that people like me can see what real kung fu fight should look like.



2) Ten tiger




A WC guy who only plays against other WC guys, who does not look outside, become familiar with what's outside his small pond, will not fair well.
However, a WC guy who trains realistically, studies how a Muay Thai guy operates, strikes, kicks, clinches, and practices these techniques in order to understand them, and then defeat them, will prevail.


I agreed with you. However, I think that you have forgotten to consider the following factors:

Time

Money

Jack of all trades and master of none



There are so many different type of martial arts in this world. People just do not have the time and money to study all of them. Which martial arts should people focus their attention on?



Thank you very much

[Frost]

Despite the attempts made by David Jamieson and Ikfmdc to destroy this thread. I did actually learnt something from it.



1) David and Ikfmdc - how about both of you stop acting like trolls and actually contribute something that is useful in this thread, e.g. post video clips of yourself fighting in any full contact tournament or any of the NHB tournament (UFC, cage fights, K1) you have entered, so that people like me can see what real kung fu fight should look like.



2) Ten tiger






I agreed with you. However, I think that you have forgotten to consider the following factors:

Time

Money

Jack of all trades and master of none



There are so many different type of martial arts in this world. People just do not have the time and money to study all of them. Which martial arts should people focus their attention on?



Thank you very much

depends on what you are looking to learn, if its how to fight then I know this is radical but how about training those arts that actually can be seen to work in a full contact enviroment.....you know just a thought:)

and if its just training for fun then go find something you enjoy training:)

[TenTigers]

there is a world of difference between tool development and tool collecting.
This depends on the teacher, and to a large degree, the student.
The teacher must be wise in choosing which tools to offer his students, and how to train them and their usage.
The student must be wise to know what it is he is actually looking to accomplish.
Otherwise, he will not understand the difference.

[RenDaHai]

When choosing a martial art I think also you have to consider why you want to study wushu and what you want to get out of it. The vast majority of Martial Artists will never apply their skill to combat, so make sure you get something else out of it.

[lkfmdc]

how about both of you stop acting like trolls and actually contribute something that is useful



Irony, it's tasty and great for breakfast.....

[SoCo KungFu]

Irony, it's tasty and great for breakfast.....

I like mine with hash browns and eggs over-easy.

[Scott R. Brown]

Despite the attempts made by David Jamieson and Ikfmdc to destroy this thread. I did actually learnt something from it.

1) David and Ikfmdc - how about both of you stop acting like trolls and actually contribute something that is useful in this thread, e.g. post video clips of yourself fighting in any full contact tournament or any of the NHB tournament (UFC, cage fights, K1) you have entered, so that people like me can see what real kung fu fight should look like.

Hi Hitman,

It is understandable that you would view their comments in this way because you don't have the same context of experience on this BB that many of us have.

To you, this is a very interesting and informative conversation, to those of us who have been around 5 to 10 years, it is the SAME conversation with different participants saying the SAME things that have been said ZILLIONS of times over many, many years here.

So while to you it is interesting and informative, to others it is boring and monotonous. This is not meant to devalue the conversation's importance to you and others, but to put the comments of some into a more proper context.

In order to make a boring repetitive conversation more interesting sometimes a controversial or playful comment is interposed! Sometimes these comments also contain inside jokes that only long time members would understand. What actually constitutes trolling and what constitutes playing around or stirring the pot for interests sake is often in the eye of the beholder!

By the way, so far you don't even rate on the same scale as "David and Ikfmdc" in terms of contributions to REAL conversations of value on this BB. You haven't been here long enough or contributed enough of value. That is not meant to be an insult, just an objective observation and is not meant to imply you don't have anything of value to contribute.

Sometimes it is more edifying to sit and watch, or read back threads before you cast aspersions upon people you do not know!:)

[lkfmdc]

Hi Hitman,

It is understandable that you would view their comments in this way because you don't have the same context of experience on this BB that many of us have.

To you, this is a very interesting and informative conversation, to those of us who have been around 5 to 10 years, it is the SAME conversation with different participants saying the SAME things that have been said ZILLIONS of times over many, many years here.

So while to you it is interesting and informative, to others it is boring and monotonous. This is not meant to devalue the conversation's importance to you and others, but to put the comments of some into a more proper context.

In order to make a boring repetitive conversation more interesting sometimes a controversial or playful comment is interposed! Sometimes these comments also contain inside jokes that only long time members would understand. What actually constitutes trolling and what constitutes playing around or stirring the pot for interests sake is often in the eye of the beholder!

By the way, do far you don't even rate on the same scale as "David and Ikfmdc" in terms of contributions to REAL conversations of value on this BB. You haven't been here long enough or contributed enough of value. That is not meant to be an insult, just an objective observation and is not meant to imply you don't have anything of value to contribute.

Sometimes it is more edifying to sit and watch, or read back threads before you cast aspersions upon people you do not know!:)

or, in other words......
http://girlongirlaction.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/anteater.jpg

[David Jamieson]

I'll bet that anteater's name is Dave.

[lkfmdc]

Dave's not here man

[Yum Cha]

Benny the Jet used to talk about "techniques in motion" drilling. Basically it's stringing together offensive attacking combos designed to create openings, and then drilling them. For instance, foot jab, feint power kick, left hook... etc. Use your own techniques and study the reactions they cause, then string a few simple combos together and drill them. Drill them not as a if he strikes - it's, if he's shelling up like a boxer, and he's running, you attack with this...

Hmmmmm.....to my mind, most good martial arts drill those combinations. Something to enter, say, something low to drop their weight, something high to catch that weight coming down, something to finish the job...

Lots of trad combos are based on body mechanics, doing just that, leading building upon the effect of the previous element.

Training 'entry' is a difficult thing in TCMA, or at least it was for me. When you 'attack the attack' you tend to wait for the weight shift into the attack and move. When I used to attack from outside, I end up chasing people around, not getting the goods delivered...

I do however have some ideas on that now that work for me, and I consider myself a bridge fighter.

Its really moot though, because I reckon very seldom do you get a chance to square off against the bad guy, outside of a ring.

And you know, I hate getting punched in the ring, it hurts like buggery.

[RenDaHai]

Its really moot though, because I reckon very seldom do you get a chance to square off against the bad guy, outside of a ring.
.

Yeah, this is what i was trying to get at earlier. And the skill of opening, entering or however you call it is one of the most important elements in ring combat. But often TCMA are looked down upon for under training this ability. But for a lot of people who don't want to fight in a ring I don't think its neccessary to spend as long on these 'attacking' skills as ring fighters do. Lots of MA tend to get judged these days on their ability to do well in ring combat, which is biased because of this and other points.

[taai gihk yahn]

Jack of all trades and master of none
this phrase is typical of the non-sense mindset that has been erroneously propagated in this country vis-a-vis martial arts, which is that for some strange reason, despite the fact that many people on this planet can successfully learn a vast array of disparate skill sets, for some reason when it comes to TMA (specifically Asian TMA), all of a sudden someone's capacity to learn more than one art / skill set is no longer considered possible or desireable;

personally, I see it as a sort of elitist snobbism on the part of TMA practitioners, or is used as a rationalization as to why they are correct to remain "faithful" to one art / skill set;

let's face it folks - a lot of that one-art-forever silliness is grounded in the cultural norms of CHina, Japan, Korea, where loyalty to one's family / sifu were paramount - thus, to (openly) go and study with more than one person was pretty much taboo, so u necesarilly stuck it out with what you had; OTOH, many TCMA-ists did travel extensively and picked up a lot of things from a lot of different peopl...

so here's a question: who's criteria do we apply to decided if a person is a Jack-of-all-trades? and what if he is, but can put all of what he learned into effective usage? this phrase should be eliminated, as it demonstrates an outmoded form of bias that does nothing to further any art; fighting effectively means that one needs must be skilled at kicking, punching, clinching, throwing, grappling, ground fighting and probably weapons as well; in fact, if you look at European HTH combat arts, u would see that they involved all of this - and people seemed well able to engage in disparate skill sets without too much difficulty; so to jump in w/the Jack of all trades "argument", it is a weak argument at this stage in the game;

really, people throw this phrase around with no real basis for substantiating it;

[Hardwork108]

We're all Daves.

In a manner of speaking you all are, based on the ancient theory of, "once you have met one kung fu-clueless, pretentious knucklehead, you have met them all".:D

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6OXjtOyYlQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGP0AM14F0&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmPJF09zcUM&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTNjxNhuS1k&NR=1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDlJlkm92w8&NR=1&feature=fvwp


Dear all,
Some of those people were using the techniques they have learnt in their classes in those (light contact) sparring matches. However, I noticed that some people from those organisations were fighting like amateur kick boxers (on youtube), when they put on gloves and protective clothing in full contact sparring matches. They seem to have forgotten everything they had learnt.
My question is if they could apply their techniques in light contact sparring matches or against their fellow classmates in light contact sparring matches, then how come they abandoned their techniques when fighting in full contact sparring matches?
This does not make any sense.

Thank you very much

Hello Hitman,

If you see people claiming kung fu experience fighting like kickboxers then you are seeing pseudo kung fu-ists who have never really studied TCMAs.

Having said that, one must admit that under ring fighting sports rules a lot of arts will lose their "essence". Of course, that does not excuse the so called "kung fu" fighters who hop around like rabbits inside the ring, without rooting and sometimes throwing wild punches,hoping to connect.

Lastly, you are better off ignoring the trolls such as Dave Ross (Lkfmdc) and David Jamieson, as they are just legends in their own minds, even if they do have a small fan club of mostly misguided and clueless souls here in the forum.

To be honest, you are more likely to get a decent kung fu conversation and info from a mid-level to senior student at an authentic kung fu kwoon, then any of those two glorified kickboxers.

[Hardwork108]

this phrase is typical of the non-sense mindset that has been erroneously propagated in this country vis-a-vis martial arts, which is that for some strange reason, despite the fact that many people on this planet can successfully learn a vast array of disparate skill sets, for some reason when it comes to TMA (specifically Asian TMA), all of a sudden someone's capacity to learn more than one art / skill set is no longer considered possible or desireable;

personally, I see it as a sort of elitist snobbism on the part of TMA practitioners, or is used as a rationalization as to why they are correct to remain "faithful" to one art / skill set;

let's face it folks - a lot of that one-art-forever silliness is grounded in the cultural norms of CHina, Japan, Korea, where loyalty to one's family / sifu were paramount - thus, to (openly) go and study with more than one person was pretty much taboo, so u necesarilly stuck it out with what you had; OTOH, many TCMA-ists did travel extensively and picked up a lot of things from a lot of different peopl...

so here's a question: who's criteria do we apply to decided if a person is a Jack-of-all-trades? and what if he is, but can put all of what he learned into effective usage? this phrase should be eliminated, as it demonstrates an outmoded form of bias that does nothing to further any art; fighting effectively means that one needs must be skilled at kicking, punching, clinching, throwing, grappling, ground fighting and probably weapons as well; in fact, if you look at European HTH combat arts, u would see that they involved all of this - and people seemed well able to engage in disparate skill sets without too much difficulty; so to jump in w/the Jack of all trades "argument", it is a weak argument at this stage in the game;

really, people throw this phrase around with no real basis for substantiating it;

You make some fair points there, yet the concept of Jack of All Trades is real, and does exist, and not just in the world of MAs, because there are people who "bite off more than they can chew" in this life.

I know that because from personal conversations here with people who claim "decades of experience" in MAs, I have seen that in many cases their understanding of authentic kung fu was below that of a basic level, independent of how good these individuals were as fighters or how popular they were in these forums.

So, IMHO, one cannot just disgard the concept of "Jack of All Trades" description, specially in a forum where every other thread contains a "foot in the mouth" moment by one or more cross trainers, with "decades of experience".......

[SoCo KungFu]

You make some fair points there, yet the concept of Jack of All Trades is real, and does exist, and not just in the world of MAs, because there are people who "bite off more than they can chew" in this life.

I know that because from personal conversations here with people who claim "decades of experience" in MAs, I have seen that in many cases their understanding of authentic kung fu was below that of a basic level, independent of how good these individuals were as fighters or how popular they were in these forums.

So, IMHO, one cannot just disgard the concept of "Jack of All Trades" description, specially in a forum where every other thread contains a "foot in the mouth" moment by one or more cross trainers, with "decades of experience".......

You telling people their knowledge is below basic is like Paris Hilton advising people not to make sex tapes. And really, your dumb@$$ery is getting nauseating. Seriously, stfu. You're a poseur, a reject, your sifu disowned you, you been banned here once already and from other sites as well, no one here can stand you, we all think you're a joke and your knowledge of fighting and/or kung fu can't match my friend's 4 year old daughter. You're pathetic. Even more pathetic by the fact that you have no clue just how pathetic you actually are. You are the village clown. Your self proclaimed mission of saving the forum newbies from the glorified kickboxers is ludicrous. Anyone with 2 ounces of commons sense can see just how much of a joke you are. I never thought I'd say this to anybody, but go off yourself. You're one shining example for why pro-abortion is a preferred platform.

[goju]

You telling people their knowledge is below basic is like Paris Hilton advising people not to make sex tapes. And really, your dumb@$$ery is getting nauseating. Seriously, stfu. You're a poseur, a reject, your sifu disowned you, you been banned here once already and from other sites as well, no one here can stand you, we all think you're a joke and your knowledge of fighting and/or kung fu can't match my friend's 4 year old daughter. You're pathetic. Even more pathetic by the fact that you have no clue just how pathetic you actually are. You are the village clown. Your self proclaimed mission of saving the forum newbies from the glorified kickboxers is ludicrous. Anyone with 2 ounces of commons sense can see just how much of a joke you are. I never thought I'd say this to anybody, but go off yourself. You're one shining example for why pro-abortion is a preferred platform.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Hardwork108]

You telling people their knowledge is below basic is like Paris Hilton advising people not to make sex tapes. And really, your dumb@$$ery is getting nauseating. Seriously, stfu. You're a poseur, a reject, your sifu disowned you, you been banned here once already and from other sites as well, no one here can stand you, we all think you're a joke and your knowledge of fighting and/or kung fu can't match my friend's 4 year old daughter. You're pathetic. Even more pathetic by the fact that you have no clue just how pathetic you actually are. You are the village clown. Your self proclaimed mission of saving the forum newbies from the glorified kickboxers is ludicrous. Anyone with 2 ounces of commons sense can see just how much of a joke you are. I never thought I'd say this to anybody, but go off yourself. You're one shining example for why pro-abortion is a preferred platform.

Spoken like a true kung fu-clueless glorified kickboxer. You are just insecure because you are nothing but a JACK OF ALL TRADES, pseudo kung fu-ist.

Hitman, if you are reading this then you have seen it for yourself. Not only that many of these cross trainers are clueless when it comes to authentic kung fu training, but they are also insecure. Somehow it seems that I was disowned by my sifu, without my knowledge...LOL!

Yes, these people LIE, because there is no substance to them, not as far as kung fu knowledge is concerned!

For proof read "SoCo Kung fu"'s response above,which was to a post of mine that was not even directed at him...LOL.

[Hardwork108]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

LOL, if you think that was "shocking" then you should see how "SoCalled Kung fu" discusses world politics. He actually believes that it is OK for the US to mass murder in Iraq and Afghanistan because "that is how it has always been and the powerful always screw the weak"! :rolleyes:

Now I know why he is anti-abortion. He wants them born so that him and his US military can shoot them dead!:eek:

[TenTigers]

HW108=how do you define rooting, and why is it that hopping around as you say, does ot allow for this?

[Lokhopkuen]

When choosing a martial art I think also you have to consider why you want to study wushu and what you want to get out of it. The vast majority of Martial Artists will never apply their skill to combat, so make sure you get something else out of it.

I love these gross generalizations over "what The vast majority of Martial Artists" may or may not do....

How would you know or why would you even care?

I don't care what style you practice,
If you do not internalize the basic technique of your martial art,
If you overlook the development of mobility and flexibility,
If you do not practice form and application,
If you do not develop the strength to make it all work,
YOUR MARTIAL ART IS USELESS.

Period.

All speculations and assumptions about events outside of your ability to personally observe them amount to little more than fantasy and conjecture.

Practice yourself.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/photo-2.jpg

[Lokhopkuen]

LOL, if you think that was "shocking" then you should see how "SoCalled Kung fu" discusses world politics. He actually believes that it is OK for the US to mass murder in Iraq and Afghanistan because "that is how it has always been and the powerful always screw the weak"! :rolleyes:

Now I know why he is anti-abortion. He wants them born so that him and his US military can shoot them dead!:eek:

I'd like you to slow down a bit here brother;
Although you make a good point every now and again I am beginning to see why people here are so hard on you.

You are at odds with everyone on this forum man.
Don't you see something wrong with that?
As rude and annoying as ICMFC is he is a real person and a respected martial art teacher. Ten Tigers, taai gihk yahn are known and respected real teachers and practitioners.
Jamison, Sanjuro, I know these men.
They are real people with lives and families plus I respect their martial arts.
Who are you exactly bro? Where do you get off talking shi!t about our United States? :mad:

I have students, friends and family serving in both Iraq and Afganistan and the last thing we are doing is mass murdering people. No instead we are rearranging the power structure so that we can exploit the hell out of those places FYI:p
No one who is there wants to be there! Whatever backward as sed policies got us there the majority of the men and women of our armed forces good decent people doing a thankless job. LOL! Perhaps you need to keep your stupid opinions about our country to yourself and just plain STFU or not.
I've been all over the world and despite the many problems we have here there is more opportunity, justice and freedom than anywhere else on earth. (Well except for Canada and only as long as you are not a baby seal pup...) You are where? Columbia? <SNIF> <SNIF?>
Yea we know what contributions you guys are making to the global community speaking of mass murder...


If you have problem with EVERYBODY HERE then the problem is YOU HW108.

[Dragonzbane76]

Ban him...someone get the ban hammer.... he's an annoying pathetic human being. And that's being nice. :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

I'd like you to slow down a bit here brother;
Although you make a good point every now and again I am beginning to see why people here are so hard on you.
People are "hard" on me because the truth hurts. ;)


You are at odds with everyone on this forum man.
Not everyone, however there are many who do not get along with me, but then considering the fact that the majority who give opinions on kung fu are Jack of All Trades, cross trainers, then perhaps that is understandable.
[

Don't you see something wrong with that?
What is wrong is the same thing that is wrong with the kung fu scene in general. The majority of posters here are Mcdojo fodder and or Jack of All Trades cross trainers. This more or less reflects the kung fu scene out there in the real world. Yet, somehow they take exception to being told that you can gain valid fighting skills from solely studying TCMAs, without cross training in BJJ or Boxing, etc.



As rude and annoying as ICMFC is he is a real person

That does not say much. Everyone posting here is a real person. What is relevant in a kung fu forum is who practices genuine kung fu as opposed to who is here to sell some pseudo kung fu training/agenda!!!!!!



and a respected martial art teacher.
LOL!

Respected by whom? Glorified Kickboxers, who are not partial to rudeness, insecurity and dishonesty?



Ten Tigers, taai gihk yahn are known and respected real teachers and practitioners.

I have no problems with them!


Jamison, Sanjuro, I know these men.
I guess you like them too? That may be because they have not invented lies about you and your sifu, or referred to you as a Nazi, pediophile, or attacked you in an unprovoked manner to score with some perceived audience that they imagine they have!



They are real people with lives and families
They will have families for sure, but "lives", I would not be too sure about in regards with a couple of them.......


plus I respect their martial arts.
For the most part I respect their martial arts, it is the kung fu knowledge of a couple of them that I am not too sure about......



Who are you exactly bro? Where do you get off talking shi!t about our United States?

I believe that you misunderstood my post. My post referred to a past interaction with "SoCalled Kung fu" where he more or less stated that it was OK for more powerful countries to invade, kill and steal the natural resources of sovereign nations, because "that is how it has always been, the strong screw the weak"....Or words to that effect. I hope that you don't agree with that position!


I have students, friends and family serving in both Iraq and Afganistan and the last thing we are doing is mass murdering people.

I believe that up to (by some estimates) 1 million dead Iraqi people may disagree with you on that.


No instead we are rearranging the power structure so that we can exploit the hell out of those places FYI

The truth comes out at last!:D



No one who is there wants to be there! Whatever backward as sed policies got us there the majority of the men and women of our armed forces good decent people doing a thankless job. LOL!

I agree with you. I have no beef with the soldiers, only with those who are enjoying the killing spree. IMHO, soldiers are just cannon fodder that are used by a given country's elite to go and kill and die for their interests. That means, I also take issue with the innocent soldiers losing their lives for the benefit of those establishment powers who do not care how many Americans die or are maimed, as long as their political and economic agendas are fulfilled.



Perhaps you need to keep your stupid opinions about our country to yourself and just plain STFU or not.
Again, you have misuderstood my "opinions". I am not anti-American, just because criticized the people who run America and are running it into ruin as we speak.


I've been all over the world

Me too.:)


and despite the many problems we have here there is more opportunity, justice and freedom than anywhere else on earth.l
That would depend on your definition of those words. Also, the very freedoms you speak of are being eroded as we speak, because of "the War on Terrorism", "The Global Warming"(a con job, if there ever was one);"War on Drugs", "Pandemic Threats" and other fantasy boggy men, that are created by the Intelligence agencies to sucker the masses out of their freedoms!!!

I just thought I would mention that.;)



(Well except for Canada and only as long as you are not a baby seal pup..

Don't get me started on those Canadians:D......Did you know that Sanjuro and David Jamieson are actually Canadians...:eek:



You are where? Columbia?

Well, actually it is COLOMBIA!;)



<SNIF> <SNIF?>

Hey, no need to get emotional about it. Colombia is not too far from you, so you can always come for a visit.:D:)



Yea we know what contributions you guys are making to the global community
Colombia could not make those "contributions" without the help of your CIA who are actively importing coke into the US (and Heroin from Afghanistan)!


speaking of mass murder...

Again, we could not commit mass murder without the US (presumably through the CIA) arming all sides of the conflict with US made weapons (for the most part).



If you have problem with EVERYBODY HERE then the problem is YOU HW108.

Again, I don't have a problem with everybody! I don't even think that I had problem with you.:confused:

[Hardwork108]

Ban him...someone get the ban hammer.... he's an annoying pathetic human being. And that's being nice.

:rolleyes:

[SoCo KungFu]

Spoken like a true kung fu-clueless glorified kickboxer. You are just insecure because you are nothing but a JACK OF ALL TRADES, pseudo kung fu-ist.

And I'd kick the living sh!t out of you too. So what's that say about you b!tch?

[Hardwork108]

HW108=how do you define rooting, and why is it that hopping around as you say, does ot allow for this?

Going back to kung fu....

My definition of rooting comes from my kung fu studies. The butt is tucked in; the back is kept straight; knees are lightly bent; toes are "gripping" the ground; breathing is in the dandien, and there is no hopping around. The stepping is "solid" yet smooth, hence the body is connected to the "earth" energy.

I have seen this approach in my Wing Chun and Chow Gar training, as well as having seen it in another authentic school of kung fu that practiced another style.

Of course, I am not saying that other MAs that do not use this approach are not rooted, as I am sure that most, if not all, MAs will claim some degree of rooting. My point is concerned with wether hopping around like a boxer or a TKD-ist can be considered genuine kung fu practice.

[Hardwork108]

And I'd kick the living sh!t out of you too.
:eek:

They don't make Medical Practitioners like they used to......LOL!

[You are supposed to be a medical practitioner (if memory serves me correctly), aren't you?]



So what's that say about you b!tch?

It says that i am a selfless and an extremely generous person.:D

[Dragonzbane76]

It says that i am a selfless and an extremely generous person.

says that a turd is more valued than you.

[RenDaHai]

I love these gross generalizations over "what The vast majority of Martial Artists" may or may not do....

How would you know or why would you even care?

I don't care what style you practice,
If you do not internalize the basic technique of your martial art,
If you overlook the development of mobility and flexibility,
If you do not practice form and application,
If you do not develop the strength to make it all work,
YOUR MARTIAL ART IS USELESS.

Period.

All speculations and assumptions about events outside of your ability to personally observe them amount to little more than fantasy and conjecture.

Practice yourself.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/photo-2.jpg

Ahahaha, I said I think people need to have more of a reason to practice the martial arts than for just self defense. 'I think' stating my opinion, because this is a forum and that is the point of the forum, to react to the other points made and state opinion, but if i were (and if you yourself were) to adhere to what you just said then none of us would comment on anything.

Gross generalisation? I stand by it! I have practiced as much as anyone, with as many others, and have as much experience to say so. So i'll say it again, the VAST majority of Martial artists WILL never apply their knowledge to actual dangerous combat. Its not something that happens all that much, and if it does for you than that is because of you not because of others. If you find it happens all the time then it really is most likely your own fault. I am only talking about events I have observed or I wouldn't say it. You are far more likely to die from disease or being hit by a car than in physical combat (unless of course your job dictates it) so practicing martial arts for health for example would be more 'self defense' than practicing it for combat.

Oh, and I care because there are a lot of people over emphasise combat in 'kung fu', and particularly over emphasise the importance of sports combat, when in reality 'kung fu' has nothing to do with combat at all. This makes me care because people assume if marital arts are successful at sports combat, this makes them better martial arts, which is a misconception.

I agree with the points you made about what to practice in martial arts, but you can practice all of these independently of the goal of combat. And there are many ways you can enjoy these points.

[Hardwork108]

says that a turd is more valued than you.

:rolleyes:

[goju]

man if you dont like the guy just put him on ignore and be done with it

[Hardwork108]

man if you dont like the guy just put him on ignore and be done with it

Then what would he do with the rest of his life? LOL

[Hardwork108]

Ahahaha, I said I think people need to have more of a reason to practice the martial arts than for just self defense. 'I think' stating my opinion, because this is a forum and that is the point of the forum, to react to the other points made and state opinion, but if i were (and if you yourself were) to adhere to what you just said then none of us would comment on anything.

Gross generalisation? I stand by it! I have practiced as much as anyone, with as many others, and have as much experience to say so. So i'll say it again, the VAST majority of Martial artists WILL never apply their knowledge to actual dangerous combat. Its not something that happens all that much, and if it does for you than that is because of you not because of others. If you find it happens all the time then it really is most likely your own fault. I am only talking about events I have observed or I wouldn't say it. You are far more likely to die from disease or being hit by a car than in physical combat (unless of course your job dictates it) so practicing martial arts for health for example would be more 'self defense' than practicing it for combat.

Oh, and I care because there are a lot of people over emphasise combat in 'kung fu', and particularly over emphasise the importance of sports combat, when in reality 'kung fu' has nothing to do with combat at all. This makes me care because people assume if marital arts are successful at sports combat, this makes them better martial arts, which is a misconception.

I agree with the points you made about what to practice in martial arts, but you can practice all of these independently of the goal of combat. And there are many ways you can enjoy these points.

I agree with most of what you say. It makes sense and I don't know why some people get hot under the colar for when they read common sense posts?

[Lokhopkuen]

:D tHanks for the clarity. COLOMBIA


People are "hard" on me because the truth hurts. ;)


Not everyone, however there are many who do not get along with me, but then considering the fact that the majority who give opinions on kung fu are Jack of All Trades, cross trainers, then perhaps that is understandable.
[

What is wrong is the same thing that is wrong with the kung fu scene in general. The majority of posters here are Mcdojo fodder and or Jack of All Trades cross trainers. This more or less reflects the kung fu scene out there in the real world. Yet, somehow they take exception to being told that you can gain valid fighting skills from solely studying TCMAs, without cross training in BJJ or Boxing, etc.




That does not say much. Everyone posting here is a real person. What is relevant in a kung fu forum is who practices genuine kung fu as opposed to who is here to sell some pseudo kung fu training/agenda!!!!!!



LOL!

Respected by whom? Glorified Kickboxers, who are not partial to rudeness, insecurity and dishonesty?




I have no problems with them!


I guess you like them too? That may be because they have not invented lies about you and your sifu, or referred to you as a Nazi, pediophile, or attacked you in an unprovoked manner to score with some perceived audience that they imagine they have!



They will have families for sure, but "lives", I would not be too sure about in regards with a couple of them.......


For the most part I respect their martial arts, it is the kung fu knowledge of a couple of them that I am not too sure about......




I believe that you misunderstood my post. My post referred to a past interaction with "SoCalled Kung fu" where he more or less stated that it was OK for more powerful countries to invade, kill and steal the natural resources of sovereign nations, because "that is how it has always been, the strong screw the weak"....Or words to that effect. I hope that you don't agree with that position!



I believe that up to (by some estimates) 1 million dead Iraqi people may disagree with you on that.



The truth comes out at last!




I agree with you. I have no beef with the soldiers, only with those who are enjoying the killing spree. IMHO, soldiers are just cannon fodder that are used by a given country's elite to go and kill and die for their interests. That means, I also take issue with the innocent soldiers losing their lives for the benefit of those establishment powers who do not care how many Americans die or are maimed, as long as their political and economic agendas are fulfilled.



Again, you have misuderstood my "opinions". I am not anti-American, just because criticized the people who run America and are running it into ruin as we speak.



Me too.:)

l
That would depend on your definition of those words. Also, the very freedoms you speak of are being eroded as we speak, because of "the War on Terrorism", "The Global Warming"(a con job, if there ever was one);"War on Drugs", "Pandemic Threats" and other fantasy boggy men, that are created by the Intelligence agencies to sucker the masses out of their freedoms!!!

I just thought I would mention that.;)




Don't get me started on those Canadians:D......Did you know that Sanjuro and David Jamieson are actually Canadians...:eek:




Well, actually it is COLOMBIA!;)




Hey, no need to get emotional about it. Colombia is not too far from you, so you can always come for a visit.:D:)



Colombia could not make those "contributions" without the help of your CIA who are actively importing coke into the US (and Heroin from Afghanistan)!



Again, we could not commit mass murder without the US (presumably through the CIA) arming all sides of the conflict with US made weapons (for the most part).




Again, I don't have a problem with everybody! I don't even think that I had problem with you.:confused:

[Lokhopkuen]

Ahahaha, I said I think people need to have more of a reason to practice the martial arts than for just self defense. 'I think' stating my opinion, because this is a forum and that is the point of the forum, to react to the other points made and state opinion, but if i were (and if you yourself were) to adhere to what you just said then none of us would comment on anything.

Gross generalisation? I stand by it! I have practiced as much as anyone, with as many others, and have as much experience to say so. So i'll say it again, the VAST majority of Martial artists WILL never apply their knowledge to actual dangerous combat. Its not something that happens all that much, and if it does for you than that is because of you not because of others. If you find it happens all the time then it really is most likely your own fault. I am only talking about events I have observed or I wouldn't say it. You are far more likely to die from disease or being hit by a car than in physical combat (unless of course your job dictates it) so practicing martial arts for health for example would be more 'self defense' than practicing it for combat.

Oh, and I care because there are a lot of people over emphasise combat in 'kung fu', and particularly over emphasise the importance of sports combat, when in reality 'kung fu' has nothing to do with combat at all. This makes me care because people assume if marital arts are successful at sports combat, this makes them better martial arts, which is a misconception.

I agree with the points you made about what to practice in martial arts, but you can practice all of these independently of the goal of combat. And there are many ways you can enjoy these points.

Thank you,
I miss understood you but now I'm clear.

[Sardinkahnikov]

man if you dont like the guy just put him on ignore and be done with it

Do you really think it could be that simple!? :eek:

[David Jamieson]

Do you really think it could be that simple!? :eek:

It's worked for me! :p

[goju]

Do you really think it could be that simple!? :eek:


yep it would :)

[Hardwork108]

It's worked for me! :p

Yet you somehow manage to read and answer some of his posts!

It seems that honesty is not a fort in this forum........

[Hardwork108]

I like this guy


Hey, you are cool too.:)



:D tHanks for the clarity. COLOMBIA

No problem.....:D:)

[Scott R. Brown]

I like this guy


Hey, you are cool too.:)

<Sniff, sniff>...love is such a beautiful thing!!!!!:)

[taai gihk yahn]

<Sniff, sniff>...love is such a beautiful thing!!!!!:)

not when it's coming from a hydrant-loving, opposable-thumb-lacking canine...

[Scott R. Brown]

not when it's coming from a hydrant-loving, opposable-thumb-lacking canine...

Your leg can't stay a virgin forever you know! At some point you have to let it live its own life!:p

[Hardwork108]

I believe that I will just sit back and see how this one develops......:D

[Scott R. Brown]

I believe that I will just sit back and see how this one develops......:D

Then we will have to change your handle from Hardwork108 to Hardlyworking54!

[Hardwork108]

Then we will have to change your handle from Hardwork108 to Hardlyworking54!
Hey, even "hard workers" deserve a little bit of rest....:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Hey, even "hard workers" deserve a little bit of rest....:D

"The Devil finds work for idle hands!"

From your reputation alone you must be idle quite a bit, LOL!!!:eek::D

[Hardwork108]

"The Devil finds work for idle hands!"

From your reputation alone you must be idle quite a bit, LOL!!!:eek::D

My "reputation"?:confused:

[Dragonzbane76]

My "reputation"?

LOLz... :p

[Hardwork108]

LOLz... :p

Back at you...LOL!

By the way, what is a "Moaist"? :rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

By the way, what is a "Moaist"?

your mother;)

[Hardwork108]

your mother;) I

First it was your gay fantasies and now it is your fantasies with senior citizens.....LOL!

PS. I had no idea that your thread dedicated to banning me was about any family member of mine.

So, I am guessing that your "Moaism" is a socialistic political movement made exclusively out of MMA knuckleheads where they get together an figure out how to collectively share a single brain cell.....LOL

[Dragonzbane76]

So, I am guessing that your "Moaism" is a socialistic political movement made exclusively out of MMA knuckleheads where they get together an figure out how to collectively share a single brain cell.....LOL

nope just your mother. ;)

[Scott R. Brown]

Back at you...LOL!

By the way, what is a "Moaist"? :rolleyes:


your mother;)

I think you mean Mooooooooist!!!:eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

so, i am guessing that your "moaism" is a socialistic political movement made exclusively out of mma knuckleheads where they get together an figure out how to collectively share a single brain cell.....lol

rotflmao!!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

I think you mean Mooooooooist!!!

moooooooooist probably describes his mother quit well lol


http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0805/large-cow-demotivational-poster-1210707592.jpg

[Hardwork108]

moooooooooist probably describes his mother quit well lol


http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0805/large-cow-demotivational-poster-1210707592.jpg

My god, you look HUGE standing next to my mother!:eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

My god, you look HUGE standing next to my mother!

your right she is a big cow.

[Scott R. Brown]

What is Bruce Jenner doing standing next to a cow?:confused:

[Hardwork108]

your right she is a big cow.
You can call her what you want, but you look absolutely huge standing next to her.....LOL

PS. Your comeback was lousy comeback,even by your own low standards.....LOL!

[Hardwork108]

What is Bruce Jenner doing standing next to a cow?:confused:

Hey, nobody said that she is perfect,but she looks so small standing next to Dragonzbane, and doesn't our bovine friend look very tranquil in the photo? Almost as if he has had lobotomy, or was one of his "Moaist" MMA friends "taking turns" on their collectively shared brain cell,when the photo was taken?......LOL

[For the first historic use of the term, "Moaist", please check the poll thread started by Dragonzbane76, in my honor in the Kung fu Forum, asking wether I should be banned.]

Seriously though, I wonder if these "Moaist" MMA knuckleheads are getting financial help from the "progressives" in the left wing Obama government? LOL

[Dragonzbane76]

PS. Your comeback was lousy comeback,even by your own low standards.....LOL!

haha now your starting to copy and paste my responses to you. awesome.

[Dragonzbane76]

For the first historic use of the term, "Moaist", please check the poll thread started by Dragonzbane76, in my honor in the Kung fu Forum, asking wether I should be banned.]

lolz i think i like moooooist better I think I'll keep it that way for reference to your mother. :p

[Hardwork108]

lolz i think i like moooooist better

And you would, wouldn't you, specially in light of the picture you posted earlier. Man you are a huge bovine. Is it because you take some hormones to enhance your MMA?:rolleyes:



I think
Sure you do......:rolleyes:


I'll keep it that way for reference to your mother. :p

You can say whatever you want about her, but she still looked tiny as compared to you in that picture.

You know, I bet if you were slaughtered they could feed a medium sized Third World country for a couple of weeks.....LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know what guys (HW8 and DB) you keep doing this on EVERY thread and I will make sure you BOTH get banned, got it?
Sheesh, you guys are like women during that time of the month.

[Dragonzbane76]

I think i would almost take that if I could take him down with me. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think i would almost take that if I could take him down with me. :)

Such a kamikaze.

[Dragonzbane76]

it would be the honorable thing to do... :p

[Hitman]

a) Taai gihk yahn

Jack of all trades and master of none – I will use the following example to illustrate my point. A professional tennis champion may study golf, boxing, dancing, swimming, table tennis, judo etc. in his/ her spare time. However, he/she will never be as good as the champions who only concentrated on one sport. If a professional tennis champion spent too much time in other sports that are not related to tennis. He/ she will find it very difficult to win any more titles and will starts to lose some tennis matches in the future. Therefore, losing the huge pay cheques (income) from the tennis tournaments. A professional tennis player in his/ her prime could earn over £4 million per year just by winning all the major tennis tournaments around the world, plus money from sponsorship, magazine interviews and advertising, etc.
However, as a professional Jack of all trades and master of none, he/she could be earning very little as a “no body” contender from all the professional sport events he/she has entered, e.g. boxing, car racing, running, golf, dancing, etc. despite the fact that he/she was a genius. He/she failed to win a single title from all the sport events he/she has entered due to the lack of time in training.

I do not know any professional tennis champion who has actually held world championship/ Olympic titles in chess, judo, karate, formula 1 racing, running, long jump, shooting, etc.


b) Hardwork 108 – Thank for your input.

This may be an interest to you.

Other martial artists around the world also having the problems of applying their martial arts against resisting opponents. According to Krishna K. Godhania, one of the co-authors of the book “Arnis” - sport arnis mighty look like combative arnis to the uninitiated, but it was an entirely different thing. The emphasis has shifted from defence to offence. It was common to see people who have barely trained in arnis winning tournaments and becoming overnight champions.

I could not find any TCMA video clips to illustrate my points. However, I have found some video clips about western fencing filmed at different time periods. They showed the stages how western fencing has changed with time. I think they are related to the reasons why many people no longer using their TCMA in fighting.

1) 1920 French Soldiers Fencing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Zf40pBUNE&feature=related

2) 1931 Italian Fencers in Budapest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNW30c20B-k&feature=related

3) A rarely seen film of Helene Mayer fencing
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=vwdDIoLtw2Q&feature=related

4) 1942 International Fencing Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtUeFKJEZ3I&feature=related

5) 1950 Italian National Fencing Master Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__tOmhqKYss&feature=related

6) 1958 Soviet Junior Fencers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKN13Apk9L0&feature=related

7) Fencing with Nick Evangelista
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpvsu1o4L58&feature=related

As you can see those people actually use their blades (fencing techniques) to defence themselves before doing the counter attack. They demonstrated the idea of self preservation about not getting hit.


8) Early 20th Century French Duels
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7_ia1UodkI&feature=related

9) 1967 Epee Duel Deffere vs. Ribiere
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ&feature=related

Not many techniques were used.


10) SUPER FENCING ATHENS 2004.Romankov. D,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dCa7_BlCVs&feature=related

11) Beisheim GER - Olympic Champion Pozdniakov RUS - Las Vegas 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XgqdcO2Iyc&feature=related

Fleche (a running attack from out of distance) was frequently used.

One of the junior fencers in Russia 1958 (6) actually used his blade to stop some of the fleche attacks, while moving backwards.

12) Flessel vs.Colignon avant Beijing 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Rbf-gYn_V_4&feature=related

[TenTigers]

I find it interesting that along with this evolution of fencing, a there has been a noticable decline in sportsmanship, ettiquette, and behavior.
I used to fence in High School, 1975. We were always respectful and courteous, and..dignified.
My daughters fenced in High School-2004. Screaming, posturing, etc was the norm-especially in Saber division.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jack of all trades and master of none – I will use the following example to illustrate my point. A professional tennis champion may study golf, boxing, dancing, swimming, table tennis, judo etc. in his/ her spare time. However, he/she will never be as good as the champions who only concentrated on one sport. If a professional tennis champion spent too much time in other sports that are not related to tennis. He/ she will find it very difficult to win any more titles and will starts to lose some tennis matches in the future. Therefore, losing the huge pay cheques (income) from the tennis tournaments. A professional tennis player in his/ her prime could earn over £4 million per year just by winning all the major tennis tournaments around the world, plus money from sponsorship, magazine interviews and advertising, etc.
However, as a professional Jack of all trades and master of none, he/she could be earning very little as a “no body” contender from all the professional sport events he/she has entered, e.g. boxing, car racing, running, golf, dancing, etc. despite the fact that he/she was a genius. He/she failed to win a single title from all the sport events he/she has entered due to the lack of time in training.

I do not know any professional tennis champion who has actually held world championship/ Olympic titles in chess, judo, karate, formula 1 racing, running, long jump, shooting, etc.

You are looking at two totally different "views".
Specialiazation is very important yes, but adding to ones core is not the same as being a jack-of -all trades and your example is incorrect because you are mixing up totally different sports and activites that have ZERO commonality.
Thing decathalon as opposed to what you h ave there and even then that is not the correct example.
The one thing that all TMA have in common is that they originated from various backgrounds AND developed from different systems.
That is NOt being a jack of all trades, it is being as complete as possible.
Since you used the tennis analogy, how many tennis champions are there with only ONE skill set, like serving for example?
None, they need to"
1) serve
2) receive
3) basline game
4) net game

THAT is what it means to be complete.
Of course you will always have ONE or two things that you do better, that is your "specilization", but to be at your highest level of MA prowess you must also be as complete as possible.

1) Striking
2) clinch
3) throws and takedowns
4) ground work
5) blunt weapons
6) edge weapons
etc, etc.

[SAAMAG]

You are looking at two totally different "views".
Specialiazation is very important yes, but adding to ones core is not the same as being a jack-of -all trades and your example is incorrect because you are mixing up totally different sports and activites that have ZERO commonality.
Thing decathalon as opposed to what you h ave there and even then that is not the correct example.
The one thing that all TMA have in common is that they originated from various backgrounds AND developed from different systems.
That is NOt being a jack of all trades, it is being as complete as possible.
Since you used the tennis analogy, how many tennis champions are there with only ONE skill set, like serving for example?
None, they need to"
1) serve
2) receive
3) basline game
4) net game

THAT is what it means to be complete.
Of course you will always have ONE or two things that you do better, that is your "specilization", but to be at your highest level of MA prowess you must also be as complete as possible.

1) Striking
2) clinch
3) throws and takedowns
4) ground work
5) blunt weapons
6) edge weapons
etc, etc.

Very nice! ::high five::

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very nice! ::high five::

I have my moments :D

[SevenStar]

Hello Hitman,

If you see people claiming kung fu experience fighting like kickboxers then you are seeing pseudo kung fu-ists who have never really studied TCMAs.

Having said that, one must admit that under ring fighting sports rules a lot of arts will lose their "essence". Of course, that does not excuse the so called "kung fu" fighters who hop around like rabbits inside the ring, without rooting and sometimes throwing wild punches,hoping to connect.

Lastly, you are better off ignoring the trolls such as Dave Ross (Lkfmdc) and David Jamieson, as they are just legends in their own minds, even if they do have a small fan club of mostly misguided and clueless souls here in the forum.

To be honest, you are more likely to get a decent kung fu conversation and info from a mid-level to senior student at an authentic kung fu kwoon, then any of those two glorified kickboxers.


for the love of bunnies, children and all that is happy, show me this glorified kickboxing of which you continually speak. you sound like every other idiot who says people who aren't using what they trained are "reverting to kickboxing", and you can't revert to something you have never trained, now can you? I basic punch or kick is a basic punch or kick, whether it is from bagua, longist, mc, goju ryu, muay thai, capoeira or tae bo. when you are under pressure you forget everything that is not ingrained into neuromuscular memory. if all of your pretty little kung fu-esue defenses, counters and the like are not fully ingrained, then guess what? yeah. that "glorified kickboxer" is you. you are using your basics, no matter how sloppy, and whatever footwork you are able to pull out of your arse, be it hopping or something else.

And since when was chan tai san's lineage not authentic?

And yes, I too am named Dave. :eek:

[Hardwork108]

for the love of bunnies, children and all that is happy, show me this glorified kickboxing of which you continually speak. you sound like every other idiot who says people who aren't using what they trained are "reverting to kickboxing",
You misunderstand. No one is saying that you should fight in the exact way as you have trained (eg. forms). However, the stance and roots, and the principles that go with them are fundamental to correct kung fu applications.



and you can't revert to something you have never trained, now can you?
You say that because you have not realized what geniuses the Glorified Kickboxers of this world can be.:D


I basic punch or kick is a basic punch or kick, whether it is from bagua, longist, mc, goju ryu, muay thai, capoeira or tae bo.
Wrong. A basic punch from bagua is not the same as a basic punch from goju ryu. You really need to check up on your MA knowledge!



when you are under pressure you forget everything that is not ingrained into neuromuscular memory.
Correct, and that is why people should find authentic kung fu sifus and train with them without cross training in irrelevant MAs to confuse themselves!


if all of your pretty little kung fu-esue defenses, counters and the like are not fully ingrained, then guess what?
You end up kick boxing in a Glorified manner?:D


that "glorified kickboxer" is you.
You wish....LOL


you are using your basics, no matter how sloppy, and whatever footwork you are able to pull out of your arse, be it hopping or something else.

Look, no one is saying that a "kung fu fight" should be picture perfect, yet there are rooting/stance prinicples, together with are structural concepts that have to be followed to the best of one's ability, and that ability will depend on wether one has spent his time practicing genuine kung fu, or wether one has practiced a mish mash of "whatever works for me" MA, together with some "kung fu".......

You have not really trained in authentic kung fu, have you?



And since when was chan tai san's lineage not authentic?
who said that it wasn't?:confused:


And yes, I too am named Dave. :eek:
What is this, how come all the kung fu-clueless in this forum are called Dave?

Is there a conspiracy?

Gene, I want answers!:D

[SevenStar]

You misunderstand. No one is saying that you should fight in the exact way as you have trained (eg. forms). However, the stance and roots, and the principles that go with them are fundamental to correct kung fu applications.

No, you misunderstand me. I am saying that you are making an incorrect assumption that it is some sort of kickboxing way to bounce.



Wrong. A basic punch from bagua is not the same as a basic punch from goju ryu. You really need to check up on your MA knowledge!

lunge punch/jab - essentially the same.
reverse punch / cross - essentially the same
fireman's carry / kata guruma - essentially, the same.
front thrust kick / teep - essentially the same.

I'm not referring to whether its "power" is generated through coiling or any other means - I am talking about the strike itself. when seen in fighting - as with the vids I posted in the other thread - they look the same.




Correct, and that is why people should find authentic kung fu sifus and train with them without cross training in irrelevant MAs to confuse themselves!

show me one. on video. in a real confrontation. thanks.



You wish....LOL

heh...in order to wish, I'd have to care...




Look, no one is saying that a "kung fu fight" should be picture perfect, yet there are rooting/stance prinicples, together with are structural concepts that have to be followed to the best of one's ability, and that ability will depend on wether one has spent his time practicing genuine kung fu, or wether one has practiced a mish mash of "whatever works for me" MA, together with some "kung fu".......

dandy. but you demonstrate your complete total ignorance when you say that then say kickboxing is about bouncing. that is what you are repeatedly failing to realize.


You have not really trained in authentic kung fu, have you?

ROFL, this is coming from the guy who trains on his own because his teacher decided to go live in a jungle? Man, you come straight out of a comic book... being that you are all into kung fu, I'm sure you know where that quote came from :rolleyes:




who said that it wasn't?:confused:

you did. you were talking smack about lkfmdc's kung fu, right? I believe this is what you said:


Lastly, you are better off ignoring the trolls such as Dave Ross (Lkfmdc) and David Jamieson, as they are just legends in their own minds, even if they do have a small fan club of mostly misguided and clueless souls here in the forum.

To be honest, you are more likely to get a decent kung fu conversation and info from a mid-level to senior student at an authentic kung fu kwoon, then any of those two glorified kickboxers.



What is this, how come all the kung fu-clueless in this forum are called Dave?

Is there a conspiracy?

Gene, I want answers!:D

Once you have truly seen real kung fu, you will come to realize that you are dave also.

[taai gihk yahn]

N
Once you have truly seen real kung fu, you will come to realize that you are dave also.
you realize that when Ross reads this, it will complete the final Bodhi Mind Seal and the 108,000 Arhats will spontaneously manifest from his bai hui point, right?

[lkfmdc]

We are all Dave, Dave is here, Dave is there, Dave is all, Look into the light, the light of Dave

[taai gihk yahn]

We are all Dave, Dave is here, Dave is there, Dave is all, Look into the light, the light of Dave

the future... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur3CQE8xB3c)

[Hardwork108]

No, you misunderstand me. I am saying that you are making an incorrect assumption that it is some sort of kickboxing way to bounce.
I admit that some kickboxers bounce more than others, and some bounce less, but kung fu roots are kung fu roots. Check out the video I posted before you make further comments.



lunge punch/jab - essentially the same.
reverse punch / cross - essentially the same
fireman's carry / kata guruma - essentially, the same.
front thrust kick / teep - essentially the same.

I'm not referring to whether its "power" is generated through coiling or any other means - I am talking about the strike itself. when seen in fighting - as with the vids I posted in the other thread - they look the same.
The source of power that you were NOT referring to is fundamental to fighting and the integrity of one's roots and stance will dictate wether the type of power/energy generated, hence the range and effectiveness.






show me one. on video. in a real confrontation. thanks.

Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsFmWipioeg

The ridiculous theatrics aside, the kung fu man had roots as compared to his adversary. Of course, there are some people who for whatever reason have solid roots....

Now look at this guy, compare his roots to those of his adversaries...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96BekJxApsA

Now look at this boxer in a street fight, he does well, but he is using a different rooting to that of traditional kung fu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6OtvSHYzN4&feature=related


heh...in order to wish, I'd have to care...
You "care" enough to communicate with me with your kung fu-clueless posts....!:D


dandy. but you demonstrate your complete total ignorance when you say that then say kickboxing is about bouncing. that is what you are repeatedly failing to realize.
I never said that "kicboxing was about bouncing". Generally speaking, kickboxers do not have kung fu rooting, even when they (and sometimes even their grandmothers) claim kung fu "experience"......



ROFL, this is coming from the guy who trains on his own
I train my Wing Chun and Chow Gar on my own, but you will be glad to know that I practice a third style in proper kung fu kwoon.:)


because his teacher decided to go live in a jungle?
Untruthful, slanderous and cowardly remarks....hey, you probably are Dave! LOL


Man, you come straight out of a comic book...
Well, at least I came out, look at you...LOL!


being that you are all into kung fu, I'm sure you know where that quote came from :rolleyes:
Hey, you tell me, as you were the one who brought the quote up, not me! :rolleyes:



you did. you were talking smack about lkfmdc's kung fu, right? I believe this is what you said:
Very true. He is probably as clueless as you. That does not mean that I was criticizing Chan Tai San's lineage. Chan Tai San must have taught hundreds of students, most of whom are still clueless.....that is how it works, even when there are real kung fu masters and lineages involved, or do you also think that all of Yip Man's students represent his proper Wing Chun lineage??? LOL!



Once you have truly seen real kung fu, you will come to realize that you are dave also.

Once you have truly seen real kung fu, you will come here and apologize to me publicly!

This kung fu-clueless "Dave" thing is really freaking me out. Gene I want some answers!!!!:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

i train my wing chun and chow gar on my own, but you will be glad to know that i practice a third style in proper kung fu kwoon.
cross training alert !!!
Cross training alert !!!

[Dragonzbane76]

(repeat) becoming what he hates.....:)

[David Jamieson]

Hey John Malkovich has pretty nice boobs in that clip.
It's a shame his face is so dang ugly! lol

brilliant actor though...

[Dragonzbane76]

We are all Dave, Dave is here, Dave is there, Dave is all, Look into the light, the light of Dave

the obsession is very scary...It's to the point anymore that I'm not sure he thinks of anything else but you. You must have made a hell of an impression. :D

[Hardwork108]

the obsession is very scary...It's to the point anymore that I'm not sure he thinks of anything else but you. You must have made a hell of an impression. :D
Yes, he did....his kung fu-clunessness is second to none, or at least it is in par with the rest of you.....:D

[Dragonzbane76]

Yes, he did....his kung fu-clunessness is second to none, or at least it is in par with the rest of you.....

yes, he did??:confused:

I could care less about what skills he has only pointing out that you have a problem and it's a little scary, the obsession goes beyond norm. When you start swearing everyone is "Him" and comparing everything you write about to "him" it's disturbing.

You do understand "dave ross" is not a little boy, your usual pedo target? ;)

[goju]

yes, he did??:confused:

I could care less about what skills he has only pointing out that you have a problem and it's a little scary, the obsession goes beyond norm. When you start swearing everyone is "Him" and comparing everything you write about to "him" it's disturbing.

You do understand "dave ross" is not a little boy, your usual pedo target? ;)

your obsession with arguing with hardwork is just as bad as his obsession with ross:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

I could care less about what skills he has
Just as well.....LOL



only pointing out that you have a problem and it's a little scary,
You would not be scared so easily if you had trained REAL kung fu....:D



the obsession goes beyond norm. When you start swearing everyone is "Him"
There, you are doing a "Sanjuro" on me.......I.e. slandering!....Again, I only believe that Bawang and Kansuke (and possibly you :D) are Dave Ross. Anything else is an exaggeration (read: LIES) coming from you guys!


and comparing everything you write about to "him" it's disturbing.
More exaggeration and sensationalism.......:rolleyes:


You do understand "dave ross" is not a little boy, your usual pedo target? ;)
And here you are reverting to your hom0sexual fantasies again.

Seriously, what is it with you knucklehead MMA-ists and your obsession with h0m0sexual themes????:confused:

Is it your none stop man-grappling training, perhaps?

[SevenStar]

The source of power that you were NOT referring to is fundamental to fighting and the integrity of one's roots and stance will dictate wether the type of power/energy generated, hence the range and effectiveness.

irrelevant in this context. we are talking about basics looking the same in a fight, which is where the whole "reverting back to kickboxing" thing comes from. basic ma striking looks similar, hence the capoeira, cma, jma and thai guys I posted all looking the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m7IJpdZaDo

BT is a bagua guy who used to post here. this clip looks like the others. I wouldn't guess any of these guys xingyi, bagua, or whatever cma style they train.






Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsFmWipioeg

The ridiculous theatrics aside, the kung fu man had roots as compared to his adversary. Of course, there are some people who for whatever reason have solid roots....

of the three vids, the boxer seemed the most skilled, go figure...



You "care" enough to communicate with me with your kung fu-clueless posts....!:D

nah. trolls amuse me.



I train my Wing Chun and Chow Gar on my own, but you will be glad to know that I practice a third style in proper kung fu kwoon.:)

I gotta ask...what style?


Very true. He is probably as clueless as you. That does not mean that I was criticizing Chan Tai San's lineage. Chan Tai San must have taught hundreds of students, most of whom are still clueless.....that is how it works, even when there are real kung fu masters and lineages involved, or do you also think that all of Yip Man's students represent his proper Wing Chun lineage??? LOL!

by that logic, you are likely just as clueless as everyone else. I like your logic here.

[Dragonzbane76]

your obsession with arguing with hardwork is just as bad as his obsession with ross
burns time at work...one thing i can count on is arguing with him. :p

[Hardwork108]

burns time at work...one thing i can count on is arguing with him. :p
Another thing you can count on is opting to get a life.........

[Dragonzbane76]

Another thing you can count on is opting to get a life.........
I know you should.

[Hardwork108]

irrelevant in this context. we are talking about basics looking the same in a fight,
And I am talking more about real fighting then sports competitions. That is why my video clips were of real fights.


which is where the whole "reverting back to kickboxing" thing comes from. basic ma striking looks similar, hence the capoeira, cma, jma and thai guys I posted all looking the same.

Again, the power mechanism will dictate how the punch looks. If you are using a kung fu mechanism that is dependent on rootedness, then you may thrown the same punch but without the "hopping" in a boxing or a kickboxing style.

I was taught to spar in a rooted stance and I am sure that you will agree that how one fights will depend on how (and how hard) one practices.


BT is a bagua guy who used to post here. this clip looks like the others. I wouldn't guess any of these guys xingyi, bagua, or whatever cma style they train.
I hazard a guess that the bagua on the video is the modern Western version of this art. I have good reason to believe this.



of the three vids, the boxer seemed the most skilled, go figure...

Well the boxer was fighting two drunk guys, whom he surprised and nailed!
While, one of the kung fu guys was fighting 3 people who were ATTACKING him, with objects in their hands. He was also much OLDER than them!

The other kung fu guy was fighting in a match situation. No surprises either side, they both knew they were going to fight and then it kicked off.

Firstly, I am surprised that you did not see the above facts, yourself. Secondly, you, just like many other MMA-ists here, seem to be leaning towards the boxing, bjj, mma camp, while you still insist on posting in a KUNG FU forum.:confused:

Finally, my reason for posting those videos was to highlight the KUNG FU roots of the fighters as opposed to the boxer, to counter the myth that all fights look like kickboxing.

Having said, because of all the rules, and the nature of sports fighting, many arts may looks similar in the ring, but that is not always the case:

Have a look at this Shotokan karate (as taught to the Japan self defense police force) fights (the fighting starts at 1:20, and it is contact!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_zmL6BRCOA

There is a little bit of bounciness as is common in Japanese Karate tournaments, but what you see is karate and not Kick boxing.



nah. trolls amuse me.
Then you must really love yourself.....:D


I gotta ask...what style?
It is my own style. I mixed the elbows and knees from Muay Thai, with close range punching from Wing Chun, then I added deadly kicks from Tae Kwon Do, and ground fighting from BJJ and Judo, and I ended up with my own fantastic "improved" kung fu style which I will be teaching in my newly made Glorified Kick Boxing Gym in New York.....;):D

Oh, I almost forgot, I will also be putting in the best and latest Olympic weight training equipment for those "kung fu-ists" who want to further improve their internal strength....:D



by that logic, you are likely just as clueless as everyone else. I like your logic here.

There is nothing wrong with my logic, unless that is, you think that all of Yip Man's students and disciples represent the Yip Man's GENUINE Wing Chun.....

[Dragonzbane76]

Have a look at this Shotokan karate (as taught to the Japan self defense police force) fights (the fighting starts at 1:20, and it is contact!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_zmL6BRCOA

There is a little bit of bounciness as is common in Japanese Karate tournaments, but what you see is karate and not Kick boxing.

haha I remember learning that same form way back in the day. :) Forgot about it until i watched vid.

Anyways, the fighting looked about the same in standard to san shou, The guy states in vid "CAN BE USED AS A SPORT AS WELL" So I don't know what your trying to do here with the "kickboxing" issue, which I really don't care, just seems like your trying to disavow someone else's practice again.

[Hardwork108]

haha I remember learning that same form way back in the day. :) Forgot about it until i watched vid.
IMHO, you should have stuck to it as Shotokan karate is a very rich and effective art, if practiced properly.


Anyways, the fighting looked about the same in standard to san shou, The guy states in vid "CAN BE USED AS A SPORT AS WELL" So I don't know what your trying to do here with the "kickboxing" issue, which I really don't care, just seems like your trying to disavow someone else's practice again.

Christ man, are you always so dense?

I am not "disavowing" someone else's art. I am pointing out that generalizations such as, "all fighting is like kickboxing", are erroneous!

Furthermore, no one is denying that MA "CAN BE USED AS A SPORT PRACTICE".....:rolleyes:

Why do you always miss the point?:confused:

Also, anyone else think that the fighting in that video looked like "standard sanshou"? LOL! :rolleyes:

[Dragonzbane76]

IMHO, you should have stuck to it as Shotokan karate is a very rich and effective art, if practiced properly. never said it wasn't.
Funny thing is I've forgotten more than you ever learned or will so stop with the lecturing.

am not "disavowing" someone else's art. I am pointing out that generalizations such as, "all fighting is like kickboxing", are erroneous!
and who states that all fighting is like kickboxing?? sounds more like something you would state. You whine and complain all the time... wahhh wahhhh... david ross hurt my feelings. So therefore I don't like san shou or sport oriented arts... wahhh wahhhh..... like a freakin baby. grow up.


Furthermore, no one is denying that MA "CAN BE USED AS A SPORT PRACTICE"..... apparently you did. b!tching and moaning that a TMA would never do such a thing, a "true" master would never teach for such things blah blah blah...crap.


Why do you always miss the point? because your a D!CK. best answer i could come up with.

Also, anyone else think that the fighting in that video looked like "standard sanshou"? LOL! opps my bad... they weren't doing throws in the vid as in sanshou. lol...can i put lol at the end of my sentence since you have that trademark down. That last sentence shows how dumb you really are in concern to MA's.

[Hardwork108]

never said it wasn't.
Funny thing is I've forgotten more than you ever learned or will so stop with the lecturing.
Well, knuckleheads were never well known for their good memories....LOL


and who states that all fighting is like kickboxing??

You would have known who stated that if you had not blindly enter this thread to have your forum butt whipped, and had instead studied the conversation!


sounds more like something you would state.
Read the d@mn thread!!!


You whine and complain all the time... wahhh wahhhh... david ross hurt my feelings.
Well, I doubt Dave Ross could hurt a fly.......LOL


So therefore I don't like san shou or sport oriented arts... wahhh wahhhh..... like a freakin baby. grow up.
You sound confused.

In your obsession with me you have forgotten to read the d@mn thread. So, you come in and put your foot in your mouth, yet again, and now you are trying to wiggle your way out....LOL!


apparently you did. b!tching and moaning that a TMA would never do such a thing, a "true" master would never teach for such things
If I did, then show me where!

There is nothing wrong with sports fighting if its context is understood.



blah blah blah...crap.
You are becoming incoherent now. Perhaps, it is time for your medication? LOL



because your a D!CK. best answer i could come up with.
You seeem to always have "D!ck" on your mind. You really need to sort out your sexuality......



opps my bad... they weren't doing throws in the vid as in sanshou.

They were also using a shotokan style guard; fighting stance and postures; the strikes were typical for this style!

For someone who claims to have studied Shotokan, you are really clueless!
Oh, sorry, you must have "forgotten".....LOL!


lol...can i put lol at the end of my sentence since you have that trademark down.
Hey, what can I say, clueless kung fu tagged MMA-ists have always been a source of laughter for me....LOL!



That last sentence shows how dumb you really are in concern to MA's.

Oh, really?

OK, I ask again, did anyone think that the KARATE fighting in the video clip I provided in my previous post, looked like Sanshou? LOL!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

So you are now an expert in Shotokan as well??? Aren't you the same person always talking about TCMA and blah, blah, blah. Did you switch to Japanese arts out of sheer boredom and rhetoric?!?!

[Hardwork108]

So you are now an expert in Shotokan as well??? Aren't you the same person always talking about TCMA and blah, blah, blah. Did you switch to Japanese arts out of sheer boredom and rhetoric?!?!

Who said that I am an expert in Shotokan, however, I recognize it, when I see it. If you don't, then you have no business sticking your nose in this discussion!

[Dale Dugas]

time to lock the thread.

[Hardwork108]

Hey guys, don't look now, but Dale Dugas has got me on ignore....:D

[Dale Dugas]

Om Tare Tuttare Ture Svaha.

Hail to Green Tara!

For your mom, HW

[Dragonzbane76]

Who said that I am an expert in Shotokan, however, I recognize it, when I see it. If you don't, then you have no business sticking your nose in this discussion!

haha hilarious it says it on the opening of the vid. REAL HARD TO RECOGNIZE when it directly tells you what it is.


They were also using a shotokan style guard; fighting stance and postures; the strikes were typical for this style!

For someone who claims to have studied Shotokan, you are really clueless!
Oh, sorry, you must have "forgotten".....LOL!

expert in shotokan now?? lol

I never claimed to have studied shotokan... I never stated that. I said I learned the form. Doesn't mean I learned the systema. I learned many a form from many different styles, in my "cross training" wanderings. something you won't know about considering you hate everything else except what is on your current "list" of styles.

The hate monger you are. spreading your filth and contemptuous poison. So did your teacher finally just tell you to leave when he realized that you are a complete a$$ moron? He decide to join the spartan army to get away from you and your poisonous trash you preach. Or did you say stuff to others and then claim it in his name? wouldn't put it past you. And yes, you are a D!CK, no gay fantasies about it unless on your part towards boys of a certain age, which would not suprise me at all. Go back to your basement Gollum.

[Hardwork108]

Om Tare Tuttare Ture Svaha.

Hail to Green Tara!

For your mom, HW

Many thanks. :)

[Hardwork108]

haha hilarious it says it on the opening of the vid. REAL HARD TO RECOGNIZE when it directly tells you what it is.
Yet, you thought the fighting looked like Sanshou...LOL,LOL,LOL!



expert in shotokan now?? lol
Not really, but compared to you I probably am...LOL:D


I never claimed to have studied shotokan...
Thank god for that. The Shotokan world does not need people like you.;)



I never stated that. I said I learned the form. Doesn't mean I learned the systema. I learned many a form from many different styles, in my "cross training" wanderings.
And you still thought that the Shotokan fighters were fighting like Sanshou guys...LOL

That is what I mean when I refer to clueless "kung fu-ists"....LOL


something you won't know about considering you hate everything else except what is on your current "list" of styles.
Please refer us to where I said that I hated a given style!


The hate monger you are. spreading your filth and contemptuous poison. So did your teacher finally just tell you to leave when he realized that you are a complete a$$ moron? He decide to join the spartan army to get away from you and your poisonous trash you preach. Or did you say stuff to others and then claim it in his name? wouldn't put it past you. And yes, you are a D!CK, no gay fantasies about it unless on your part towards boys of a certain age, which would not suprise me at all. Go back to your basement Gollum.

With all those "lovely" words above, you have shown who the real hate monger is.

Thank you.:)

[Dragonzbane76]

Yet, you thought the fighting looked like Sanshou...LOL,LOL,LOL

i never stated once that it was sanshou??? I said it was in the same standard moron...god you are just dumber than a bag of hammers.


Not really, but compared to you I probably am...LOL haha you know nothing of me. "probably" in that sentence is about as close as you'll ever get.

Thank god for that. The Shotokan world does not need people like you.
and the world in general does not need people like you.

And you still thought that the Shotokan fighters were fighting like Sanshou guys...LOLyou are just dumb...lolz putting wording that i never said.

Please refer us to where I said that I hated a given style!between the lines, between the lines.... :)

[KC Elbows]

Prediction: either certain members and Hardwork will confine themselves shortly to one or two threads of pointless arguing, or they will all get owned by the management for being annoying.

[Dragonzbane76]

I wish to pull a kamakazi and take him with me for the benefit of all :)

[SevenStar]

And I am talking more about real fighting then sports competitions. That is why my video clips were of real fights.

Again, the power mechanism will dictate how the punch looks. If you are using a kung fu mechanism that is dependent on rootedness, then you may thrown the same punch but without the "hopping" in a boxing or a kickboxing style.

I was taught to spar in a rooted stance and I am sure that you will agree that how one fights will depend on how (and how hard) one practices.

did you watch the old guy? his reverse punch also looked like a boxing cross. his chin was way in the air, but other than that, looked like a good, right cross.



I hazard a guess that the bagua on the video is the modern Western version of this art. I have good reason to believe this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o5iR2obHGQ&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSnl36UCefs&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ftgpPfzlHA&feature=channel

same guy and some of his students. Here is his teacher:

http://www.blacktaoist.com/chan.asp





Well the boxer was fighting two drunk guys, whom he surprised and nailed!
While, one of the kung fu guys was fighting 3 people who were ATTACKING him, with objects in their hands. He was also much OLDER than them!

The other kung fu guy was fighting in a match situation. No surprises either side, they both knew they were going to fight and then it kicked off.

Firstly, I am surprised that you did not see the above facts, yourself.

I noticed. the young guy in your clip still looked like a clown. You don't fight from low stances, he was flailing, etc. you could argue he may have hit him with a sow choy or something similar, but it looked like a random lucky strike to me. The old guy held his own. just from a balance perspective, he doesn't seem as skilled as the boxer, but he held his own.



Secondly, you, just like many other MMA-ists here, seem to be leaning towards the boxing, bjj, mma camp, while you still insist on posting in a KUNG FU forum.:confused:

I also mod this KUNG FU forum...go figure.


Finally, my reason for posting those videos was to highlight the KUNG FU roots of the fighters as opposed to the boxer, to counter the myth that all fights look like kickboxing.

look at the thai boxing vids. I will post more. no bouncing. solid stance.


It is my own style. I mixed the elbows and knees from Muay Thai, with close range punching from Wing Chun, then I added deadly kicks from Tae Kwon Do, and ground fighting from BJJ and Judo, and I ended up with my own fantastic "improved" kung fu style which I will be teaching in my newly made Glorified Kick Boxing Gym in New York.....;):D

Great! Where can I sign up? :rolleyes:



There is nothing wrong with my logic, unless that is, you think that all of Yip Man's students and disciples represent the Yip Man's GENUINE Wing Chun.....

I don't care about yip man's wc, frankly. but don't you find it odd how EVERY agrees that the majority of CMA is watered down, fake, etc. but NOBODY ever admits they are part of that majority?

[Hardwork108]

did you watch the old guy? his reverse punch also looked like a boxing cross. his chin was way in the air, but other than that, looked like a good, right cross.
There are many techniques in the TCMAs that exist in other MAs and I will even agree with you that under sports rules, many martial arts begin to look alike, however, my point is that in a real fight one can sometimes see certain differences, in this case, the roots.

I believe that it all goes down to training. If you have trained to use your roots in a certain way, to generate a certain type of power, and you have trained long and hard enough with a real deal sifu, then that will be reflected in fighting.By the way, and you probably know this, some karate styles also have a similar approach to rooting (and foot work).

Here is another example, a video clip that started the following thread. There is no hopping or "bouncing" as far as the MA-ist, probably a karate-ka, is concerned.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1022240&postcount=1





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o5iR2obHGQ&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSnl36UCefs&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ftgpPfzlHA&feature=channel

same guy and some of his students. Here is his teacher:

http://www.blacktaoist.com/chan.asp

For some reason I could only see one of the videos - a gentleman doing a bagua form.

Here is my idea of Baguazhang, master Ma Chuanxu. His Bagua teachings are extremely Internal and take a long time to learn. I believe that he will only teach the art/Fighting technique when the student has already achieved certain Internal requirements, namely opening the Small Heavenly Circle and Large Heavenly Circle.

According to Master Ma, without the necessary Internal skills, the Bagua techniques are useless. His Baguazhang is Liang style:

Here is a video of the man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NFkUUltnYc&feature=related

Of course, this will mean nothing to those who are not familiar with Internal methodologies.



I noticed. the young guy in your clip still looked like a clown. You don't fight from low stances, he was flailing, etc. you could argue he may have hit him with a sow choy or something similar, but it looked like a random lucky strike to me.

It is difficult to say, to be honest, but then even if it was a lucky shot, it was powerful enough to knock out the gang banger, instantly. However, the kid had solid roots for sure, and that is probably because of a lot of emphasis on roots and stance training, which I might add, is boring, tiresome and darn right painful. However, that is how some traditional kung fu schools (with not so many students, perhaps) teach.



The old guy held his own. just from a balance perspective, he doesn't seem as skilled as the boxer, but he held his own.
I wonder how well the same boxer would have done if he was his age and fighting under that same exact situation? And I am not taking anything away from the boxer, who did an impressive job. I was just wondering....



I also mod this KUNG FU forum...go figure.
Did I ever tell you how wonderful a person I think you are?:D


look at the thai boxing vids. I will post more. no bouncing. solid stance.
Thai Boxing has solider stances and of course, it is an individual an rich art. However, I have seen many kickboxers in general who do not have solid stances. Also, the stance solidness of some TCMA incorporates body unity and/or Internal concepts that other arts do not contain.


Great! Where can I sign up? :rolleyes:
Well, I will soon be opening my NYC branch, but I need to think of a suitable name first, and unfortunately "New York San Duh! (TM)", is already taken.:D





I don't care about yip man's wc, frankly. but don't you find it odd how EVERY agrees that the majority of CMA is watered down, fake, etc. but NOBODY ever admits they are part of that majority?

That is human nature, but I can speak for myself and say that I have been lucky enough to study under a few real deal sifus. I also do a lot of research on my own time and have found that a lot of the things my sifus taught me is genuine and makes sense once one understands certain concepts and principles of TCMA. Other stuff that I have been exposed to, I have never seen anywhere else, not even in books or MA media, but the methodolgies are valid to my satisfaction because I have seen the sifu's (and his advaned students') abilities first hand.

However, this is the internet and it is always going to be my word, your word and other people's word. Understanding, as always, comes from commonly shared training and experiences.

HW108

PS. By the way, you did not refer to the Shotokan clip I provided. I hope you didn't think that the karate fighting was sanshou like or "sanshou standard"....:D

[SoCo KungFu]

So just another thread that has been reduced to dip****108 showing he has a lower IQ than a drunk half retarded inbred orangutan, shortly to be followed by quoting this post with the prepubescent retort something to the extend of, "Well that still makes me infinitely smarter than you har har har."

So just how far is Gene going to let this forum go to **** before he finally purges this waste of biomass from this place for good?

[Hardwork108]

So just another thread that has been reduced to dip****108 showing he has a lower IQ than a drunk half retarded inbred orangutan, shortly to be followed by quoting this post with the prepubescent retort something to the extend of, "Well that still makes me infinitely smarter than you har har har."

So just how far is Gene going to let this forum go to **** before he finally purges this waste of biomass from this place for good?

Look, SevenStar and I are having a pretty decent conversation here, the difference between the various MA roots/stances/postures, can dictate fundamental differences in actual and final application,

TCMA roots are a "controversial" area, as they are not generally taught with the intense emphasis that they are meant to be. So yes, sometimes there are "controversies" and misunderstandings, but IMHO, this conversation is interesting and fruitful.

Why don't you keep your slanderous behavior to yourself and run along to the MMA forum and discuss the size of your punch bag with similarly minded people!

Thanks in advance!

[monkeyfoot]

Nice sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4

[Hardwork108]

Nice sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4

I can't see it on my computer. For some reason I am having problems watching some Youtube videos, on my computer. However, I believe that I have seen this bajiquan fight video and I have posted links to it before.

This is another video where people who have a bit of familiarity with Baji, can recognize it.

Thank you for posting.:)

[KC Elbows]

So just another thread that has been reduced to dip****108 showing he has a lower IQ than a drunk half retarded inbred orangutan, shortly to be followed by quoting this post with the prepubescent retort something to the extend of, "Well that still makes me infinitely smarter than you har har har."

So just how far is Gene going to let this forum go to **** before he finally purges this waste of biomass from this place for good?

Bleh. People following and arguing with him in thread after thread are just as bad. He can't argue by himself, and no one appointed anyone else here to argue on our behalf or for our benefit. Either face that your outrage is really your hobby, or confine your mock outrage to one or two threads, but don't blame Gene because you and others can't help but take the bait EVERY SINGLE FRIKKIN TIME.

[Hardwork108]

Bleh. People following and arguing with him in thread after thread are just as bad. He can't argue by himself, and no one appointed anyone else here to argue on our behalf or for our benefit. Either face that your outrage is really your hobby, or confine your mock outrage to one or two threads, but don't blame Gene because you and others can't help but take the bait EVERY SINGLE FRIKKIN TIME.

And to be honest, I was not even baiting him. SevenStar made some valid points and so have I. Perhaps we threw in some tongue in cheek comments to make the conversation spicier but that has nothing to do with SoCoKungfu, nor other "MMA inclined" forum members who are lurking somewhere waiting to "contribute" to this thread in a negative and slanderous manner, and then go on and blame me for destroying the thread.

The fact of the matter is that these people are bringing in "baggage" from past discussions, where I have questioned, to put it kindly, their TCMA "wisdom" and "knowledge" - which IMHO is based more on their MMA, or none TCMA experience, than any genuine kung fu training - to threads that deal with other subject matters.

Anyway, thanks for seeing through the smoke.

[SevenStar]

Here is another example, a video clip that started the following thread. There is no hopping or "bouncing" as far as the MA-ist, probably a karate-ka, is concerned.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1022240&postcount=1

whatever style he's using, he's got WAY more restraint than me.





For some reason I could only see one of the videos - a gentleman doing a bagua form.

you said the guys were probably doing americanized bagua, so I posted links to them doing bagua forms and a xingyi form.


Here is my idea of Baguazhang, master Ma Chuanxu. His Bagua teachings are extremely Internal and take a long time to learn. I believe that he will only teach the art/Fighting technique when the student has already achieved certain Internal requirements, namely opening the Small Heavenly Circle and Large Heavenly Circle.

According to Master Ma, without the necessary Internal skills, the Bagua techniques are useless. His Baguazhang is Liang style:

Here is a video of the man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NFkUUltnYc&feature=related

Of course, this will mean nothing to those who are not familiar with Internal methodologies.

I will agree, that guy is amazing.



PS. By the way, you did not refer to the Shotokan clip I provided. I hope you didn't think that the karate fighting was sanshou like or "sanshou standard"....:D

those guys are really good also. And yeah, it's easily discernible what they practice.

[Hitman]

Hardwork 108 - this may be an interest to you.

Here are some video clips I found on youtube about people who tried to use what they have learnt in (light) sparring matches. Sorry if you have seem them before.

Karate student vs Kung Fu student
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4JiNrU7jEk

Capoeira vs Drunken Boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxiCSk3knPw&feature=related

MMA - Capoeira vs. Kickboxer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8FJyScbV6s

The Original Crazy 20 second Capoeira MMA Knockout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6oiADjOdFg&NR=1

Capoeira VS Karate - 27-4-2003 (Mosquito)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrAVg21eQ8&feature=related


I can tell the styles of those people were using in those sparring matches.

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork 108 - this may be an interest to you.

Here are some video clips I found on youtube about people who tried to use what they have learnt in (light) sparring matches. Sorry if you have seem them before.

Thanks for posting the videos. They prove the point that if one sticks to training their given style in the way it was meant to be trained, without attempting to "improve" it by cross training in irrelevant styles, then one can use that same style during and for combat.


Karate student vs Kung Fu student
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4JiNrU7jEk
I have seen this one before, but in the case of this particular video, I suspect that it is just a promo video to sell Kyokushinkai as a superior MA to kung fu.

I believe that there is another version of this link on Youtube where one can see Kyokushin' s "superiority" over kung fu. However, the second clip of the second fight starting at 3:00, where the kung fu guy held his own, was conveniently short.

IMHO, the sparring not only did not reflect good kung fu but it did not even reflect good Kyokushinkai.

However, it still proves the point that each fighter was visibly using his individual art for combat.:)


Capoeira vs Drunken Boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxiCSk3knPw&feature=related

MMA - Capoeira vs. Kickboxer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8FJyScbV6s

Capoeira VS Karate - 27-4-2003 (Mosquito)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrAVg21eQ8&feature=related
Again, one can still identify the individual arts, in these videos.



The Original Crazy 20 second Capoeira MMA Knockout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6oiADjOdFg&NR=1

I found this one very interesting. It is the first time I have seen capoeira used in a ring setting in such an effective manner. Again, it goes to show that what your fighting looks like, will depend how hard you have stuck to your art and its techniques, concepts and principles, rather than cross train in irrelevant mish mash..

Also, one can see the wisdom of not going back that is imprinted into the authentic training of many kung fu styles. When faced with Capoeira type attacks one must go forward and jam and disrupt the opponent's attempts. Of course, one must know how to this, from a kung fu perspective, and that is something that will not generally be taught in a kickboxing school.



I can tell the styles of those people were using in those sparring matches.

Agreed!

Thanks again for the videos.:)

[YouKnowWho]

My question is if they could apply their techniques in light contact sparring matches or against their fellow classmates in light contact sparring matches, then how come they abandoned their techniques when fighting in full contact sparring matches? This does not make any sense.
The reason is simple. Because their techniques may not be solid enough yet. In the following short clip, you can see that the guy used the same SC "bear hug, outer hook" technique twice within 14 second. It proves that he did not use that move by accident without planing. Also he used the Longfist roundhouse kick, side kick combo to enter and finished with a TCMA SC throw, it indicated that he did not fight like a kickboxer (not sure round house kick, side kick combo is a common move used in kickboxing) or MMA guy (not sure bear hug outer hook is a common move used in MMA - also please notice that the hooking on opponent's "back leg" is very TCMA). This is a full contact Sanda/Sanshou fight and his opponent was very strong.

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv

[SevenStar]

The reason is simple. Because their techniques may not be solid enough yet. In the following short clip, you can see that the guy used the same SC "bear hug, outer hook" technique twice within 14 second. It proves that he did not use that move by accident without planing. Also he used the Longfist roundhouse kick, side kick combo to enter and finished with a TCMA SC throw, it indicated that he did not fight like a kickboxer (not sure round house kick, side kick combo is a common move used in kickboxing) or MMA guy (not sure bear hug outer hook is a common move used in MMA - also please notice that the hooking on opponent's "back leg" is very TCMA). This is a full contact Sanda/Sanshou fight and his opponent was very strong.

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv


It bears some similarity to judo's ko soto gake. True though, you don't see it much in mma.

[Hitman]

Light sparring only.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1jfCTfZ5W4&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NON-yrhMe48&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvvdfKPzAkI&feature=channel

[sanjuro_ronin]

Light sparring only.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1jfCTfZ5W4&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NON-yrhMe48&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvvdfKPzAkI&feature=channel

LMAO !!!
Nice one, LOL !!

[David Jamieson]

Light sparring only.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1jfCTfZ5W4&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NON-yrhMe48&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvvdfKPzAkI&feature=channel

jumping around throwing hits into solid...air doesn't exactly rate as "sparring".

I don't know what that was other than a couple of dudes glamming for the cam? lol

[hskwarrior]

ya gotta be kidding me :O:eek: