Spaztaztic Southern Mantis (Maybe)?

[SanHeChuan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX60tdwPEcc

WTF?

I Don't know what this is either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhTkGq1DdqM&feature=related

[cerebus]

That looked... strange. But hey, I don't know much about Southern Mantis...:o

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX60tdwPEcc

WTF?

I Don't know what this is either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhTkGq1DdqM&feature=related
the first guy, and I MAY BE WRONG, looked a lot like James Cama - but again, I COULD BE WRONG!

the second guy was just...well, I don't know what to say about that...

[TenTigers]

yes, the first guy is Sifu James Cama.
His skill is well known among SPM practitioners.
He is the chosen instructor for the Chinese Freemasons gym, a position once held by the Grandmaster, Lam Sang.

[Lee Chiang Po]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX60tdwPEcc

WTF?

I Don't know what this is either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhTkGq1DdqM&feature=related


The first video was clearly Mantis. The second video, first guy, was doing some form of kung fu, looked like a diviate form of Wing Chun. The second guy in the gi was clearly doing Karate.

[TenTigers]

The second guy in the gi was clearly doing Karate.

The second guy in the gi was clearly doing Lau Gar Kuen, a form from the Hung-Gar system.

(although it was clearly not a good performance;-)

[Yum Cha]

The second guy in the gi was clearly doing Lau Gar Kuen, a form from the Hung-Gar system.

(although it was clearly not a good performance;-)

Yea, the first guy had some good chops, the second guy was OK, wouldn't slap him for it.

I have advice for both of them. T-shirts. Plain old T-shirts.

James Cama was interesting. The 'shuttering' in SPM is common, and normally looks like dynamic tension. His looked different.

[SanHeChuan]

yes, the first guy is Sifu James Cama.
His skill is well known among SPM practitioners.
He is the chosen instructor for the Chinese Freemasons gym, a position once held by the Grandmaster, Lam Sang.

So, that would be considered a good performance for that Form then?

[TenTigers]

It's not for me to judge. I am not familiar with that form.
(I do know that Sifu Cama is highly skilled and well-known for this.)
Many Sifus, when performing a public demonstration, will do sections of a form, or several forms, rather than show the entire form. They show what they choose to the public.
Until very recently, SPM was only taught to the Hakka, and even then, only to a select few. It is one of the systems that is still considered closed door.

I think it's great that it's being taught and shown more and more openly, and there are alot of interesting videos on youtube, but there is much that will probably never be shown to outsiders.

[TenTigers]

BTW SanHeChuan,
I thought it funny that you didn't recognize Lau Gar.(I believe you used to do LSW Hung-Gar in your past?) That happens to me as well. I was once judging in a tournament, and it wasn't until the guy was half way through his form that I recognized it.
It was that awful. Not the person so much, as the way he was taught to do the form. It was obvious that he spent alot of time on it. He was simply doing what he was taught, and I suppose in his school, it was considered to be very good, as he and his fellow students were extremely upset at my low score, even to the point of questioning me about it. They actually said, "He does it perfectly!"
I raised one eyebrow (in my best Sean Connery immitation) and said, "Perfectly?"
They didn't get it.
They also do a very interesting Bung-Bo.
I would pay money to have seen you sitting in the judge's seat for that one!:D

[TenTigers]

ahh..after reading your profile, I mistook you for someone else.' :eek:
It was the Law Clansman that threw me off.
I thought you were Sifu Albright, who's name on here used to be (or still might) Law Clansman..
Ok, rather than delete my post, I'm keeping it up, cause it's still funny.
How many others have had this same experience?

(not the mistaken identity, the discovery that you were watching someone do a form that you were very familiar with)

[taai gihk yahn]

the discovery that you were watching someone do a form that you were very familiar with)
I have seen some very...interesting evolutions of CTS CLF & Lama forms popping up here and there of late...certain things just glaringly incorrect to those in the know...

[Lee Chiang Po]

The second guy in the gi was clearly doing Lau Gar Kuen, a form from the Hung-Gar system.

(although it was clearly not a good performance;-)


I wouldn't know Lau Gar if it was trying to crawl up my behind, but it must be some sort of Karate look alike or maybe since you consider it a poor perfromance it might have been influenced by karate or some such. His version of it anyway. I did some ****o long ago for a little while, and it was the first thing that came to mind when viewing that video. They had me learning short forms and when I asked how many of these forms there were, my sensei said he really didn't know. I think it might have been around a hundred or so. Maybe that is not right, but then it could be too. It didn't take me long to determine that I was not going to like it very much.

[TenTigers]

I wouldn't know Lau Gar if it was trying to crawl up my behind, but it must be some sort of Karate look alike or maybe since you consider it a poor perfromance it might have been influenced by karate or some such. His version of it anyway. I did some ****o long ago for a little while, and it was the first thing that came to mind when viewing that video. They had me learning short forms and when I asked how many of these forms there were, my sensei said he really didn't know. I think it might have been around a hundred or so. Maybe that is not right, but then it could be too. It didn't take me long to determine that I was not going to like it very much.
Sh1toryu has probably the most forms of any Okinawan Karate system.
As far as lau Gar looking like Karate-actually it doesn't look anything like Karate.
That will give you an idea on that guy's performance.

[taai gihk yahn]

Sh1toryu has probably the most forms of any Okinawan Karate system.
As far as lau Gar looking like Karate-actually it doesn't look anything like Karate.
That will give you an idea on that guy's performance.

there is a line in Goju's Sepai that is almost exactly the same as the first forward moving sequence from LGK, at least the version I learned from Ross as compared to what I saw one of Urban's original students doing;

[mooyingmantis]

The second video is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE! Wrong tempo, wrong energy, and terrible techniques! LOL, and they are suppose to be making a movie???? :eek:

Richard A. Tolson

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know that Sifu James is very highly regarded but I never liked his "flowery rendition" of SPM, just a personal thing , no slight on his skill of course.
The other guys seemed like they were combining a few systems...

[David Jamieson]

I hate to be the jerk here, but it's not my first time!

lol

I thought it was all sub standard.

As I don't know any of those guys and even less about them, I don't feel bad making that observation.

The first one looked just weird. I can't see what the point of demonstrating that was. There was nothing there in any way shape or form that would attract me to that art and if you aren't trying to get more students, then why bother demonstrating?

The others looked like typical guys who just wanted to make a flick with whatever it was that they knew. I didn't like the shape or flow of either of the sets they chose to play. It looked jittery, stiff and rigid. No flow, no hint of power.


So, my vote goes for none of it. And I can't apologize for that. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

Sh1toryu has probably the most forms of any Okinawan Karate system.
As far as lau Gar looking like Karate-actually it doesn't look anything like Karate.
That will give you an idea on that guy's performance

haha yeah that did not look like any of the Lau Gar I ever learned. I learned it 2 different ways. Both are differing in aspect but they both maintained the BOX shape within the form. From the history I learned of it, the Lau family married into the linage of Hung, and this form "Lau Gar" was given as a gift during that time from the brides family Lau. Not sure if that is the whole story but it what I heard about it. Might be totally wrong even. :p

[MysteriousPower]

It's not for me to judge. I am not familiar with that form.
(I do know that Sifu Cama is highly skilled and well-known for this.)
Many Sifus, when performing a public demonstration, will do sections of a form, or several forms, rather than show the entire form. They show what they choose to the public.
Until very recently, SPM was only taught to the Hakka, and even then, only to a select few. It is one of the systems that is still considered closed door.

I think it's great that it's being taught and shown more and more openly, and there are alot of interesting videos on youtube, but there is much that will probably never be shown to outsiders.


Do you really believe what you have typed? There are things that will never be shown to the public? You want to know why? Because the secrets are bullsh!t. The reason why these super sifus never show their secret stuff is because:

1. They would lose their sense of superiority from knowing something no one else does which is actually a form of insecurity.

2. They might get laughed at because they kept something so stupid secret.
3. Someone might actually challenge them to fight a televised full contact fight like Ray Pina used to. Then the video would be reviewed and this secret bullsh!t would not be visible at all.

It is too bad that these super sifus with their deadly secrets never fight in the mma because they would all be exposed for their crap.

Tentigers,
I do not know anything about you but your reverence of these secrets makes you sound child like in an innocent, "I believe evrything my dad tells me.".

[SPJ]

conduction or connectivity to the ground or rooting.

1. northern mantis, each hand move is coupled with leg move. there are specific stance and stepping methods in mantis.

2. even thou, in southern style, you may do many hands move without stepping meaning assuming only a horse stance or changing between bow and horse stance without stepping forward or backward.

however, each hand move is still coupled with breathing and whole body generation of power from the ground and feet up. may be rotating the waist as well.

3. with many hands moves very fast within a single breath or without other body part connected or moving in unison, that many hand moves may not be a complete move or just local arm moves--

4. In short, in northern mantis, fast hand moves are coupled to fast stepping to the front, back, left and right etc.

---

one breath one move with the whole body connected to the ground. (universal concept)

5. many hand moves within a single breath without connecting to the ground with other body parts?

or many hand movements and breathing in and out many times within a minute?

6. it is not about how many hands move you may do within a minute.

it is about a complete move with both hand and feet and the rest of the body within a breath (in and out).

---

[SPJ]

hand moves such as hooking, grappling. picking, confining (gou luo cai gua)

need the whole body moves with stepping/stances and whole body weight to weight in.

to work.

:)

[TenTigers]

Mysterious Power:

"SUSQUEHANA HAT COMPANY!":eek:

whoa, man. I never said they were good.
Just that they were secret!:D

There are, and probably always will be, techniques that individuals, or even groups as a whole, deem unsuited for public display,
and reserved for the people of their choosing.
That's their prerogative.
It doesn't make it better or worse,
effective or inneffective,
but the fact remains that it exists.



Now, the fact that this sets off such a strong reaction within you...?
You may want to look into this.
Maybe talk with someone...
a professional, perhaps...
who can prescribe medication..


"now show me on the jong,
where did the bad Sifu touch you?":p

[MysteriousPower]

Lol!

Knifefighter and tneihoff would have a field day with comments such as yours about secret techniques. The fact that they are kept secret shows that people believe they hold power and cannot be shown to the public. What a joke.


The day for these secret fighting techniques has passed.

[TenTigers]

Lol!

Knifefighter and tneihoff would have a field day with comments such as yours about secret techniques. The fact that they are kept secret shows that people believe they hold power and cannot be shown to the public. What a joke.


The day for these secret fighting techniques has passed.

you stiill seem to be attaching more meaning to this than is there.

[David Jamieson]

Lol!

Knifefighter and tneihoff would have a field day with comments such as yours about secret techniques. The fact that they are kept secret shows that people believe they hold power and cannot be shown to the public. What a joke.


The day for these secret fighting techniques has passed.

Oh, there is secrets.

It's not some technique and how it's trained or executed though.

The secrets I have in regards to fighting will never be revealed by me. But I can tell you that these things i would do are not what you would expect and definitely couldn't be done in any competitive venue.

The secret is only that thing that could change the outcome that I know about and that you don't know about. That's why it's a secret. :)

Also, I never cared about anything that Dale (knifefighter)or Terrence had to say. They're trolls with ufc on the brain lol.

[MysteriousPower]

The question still remains. Why would they keep these a secret? You are making it sound as if these sifus are keeping it a secret as a matter of fact thing that everyone does. You seem to be purposefully trying to get away from the apparent reasons which I have already listed.

1. It makes them feel superior and these secrets will help them develop skills that they can pull out of their hat if need be...something the opponent knows nothing about.

2. Being able to draw in gullible students and keeping them on for years while dangling carrots that never appear.

3. Being insecure and not wanting others to find out that they are not really that special accept in their own minds.

You downplay these things because you know them to be true and cannot adequately defend them.
"People keep secrets in martial arts like people take out the garbage twice a week.". Come on. I am not attaching meaning to anything. You made a vague statement regarding "things that will never be shown in public.". You implied that these things are special.

Why don't you give us an example of a secret spm drill, technique, or form and why it is a secret? What deadly skills will it develop? I bet you will not do it because you were asked not to or because it is too deadly for the public. But really you will probably not reveal the secret because people will laugh that you kept something like that as a secret...or worse we will say, "Gee, everyone already know that.".

[SanHeChuan]

Lol!

Knifefighter and tneihoff would have a field day with comments such as yours about secret techniques. The fact that they are kept secret shows that people believe they hold power and cannot be shown to the public. What a joke.


The day for these secret fighting techniques has passed.

I got in trouble for posting some shorin-ryu forms on youtube that weren't suppose to be public. I think the point of keeping them secret was so that people couldn't learn them and pass themselves off as a lineage they did not hold. Controlling information to control authentication.

At least that is what would make sense to me, because come on it was JUST Karate. ;)

[David Jamieson]

I got in trouble for posting some shorin-ryu forms on youtube that weren't suppose to be public. I think the point of keeping them secret was so that people couldn't learn them and pass themselves off as a lineage they did not hold. Controlling information to control authentication.

At least that is what would make sense to me, because come on it was JUST Karate. ;)

Imagine what trouble you'd get into for revealing recipes! lol

[TenTigers]

Secrets secrets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The question still remains. Why would they keep these a secret? You are making it sound as if these sifus are keeping it a secret as a matter of fact thing that everyone does. You seem to be purposefully trying to get away from the apparent reasons which I have already listed.

1. It makes them feel superior and these secrets will help them develop skills that they can pull out of their hat if need be...something the opponent knows nothing about.

2. Being able to draw in gullible students and keeping them on for years while dangling carrots that never appear.

3. Being insecure and not wanting others to find out that they are not really that special accept in their own minds.

You downplay these things because you know them to be true and cannot adequately defend them.

These reasons you give sound like they are coming from personal experience. Perhaps you had a teacher who did just that and you became dissalusioned. (sp?)

If this is so, let me mention that not everyone has had your experience.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Old school teachers used to keep secrets, and many still do, for many reasons, but typically, they were:
To Guarantee the right sucessor ( only the most advanced form(s) were taught to a selected one/few.
To keep something that they held dear to their hearts.
To keep an "upper hand" over the students.
To give an advantage to a selected student(s) over others.

Remember, most old time teachers didn't teach for money and if they did, they didn't always teach the same stuff to everyone.
We may not agree with this methods, but it was THEIR knowledge and they could/can do with it whatever they want.
Many times it turned out WORSE for the practitioner and the system, but such is life.

[SPJ]

yes. the teacher may reserve some materials for indoor students.

however, just like recipe for cooking, some times it needs one more essential ingredient to make everything work or taste good.

practice of gong fa would make all the moves work.

without this, the moves may not work properly.

and that is always from practice over and over

and that is not a secret.

this is to encourage all students to practice the basic or fundamentals over and over from day 1 to day whenever.

not to persue the illusory "secrets" that may or may not be there.

[lkfmdc]

In a lot of the TCMA world, aka "mo lum" this talk of "secrets" has been flat out an excuse to cover NOT KNOWING SOMETHING

There is a lot of "advanced" and/or "secret" stuff in Pak hok/hop gar/lama but in the almost 2 decades I spent traveling and meeting with so-called "advanced masters" I can't tell you how many times behind closed doors when the BS was set aside, we found out they simply didn't know the stuff in question!

Often, being students of CTS, we knew it and they didn't and they asked US questions! :eek:

[SPJ]

the other big thing is personal interpretation

when I first listen to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujmUHDfhgFI

I think that it is the right flavor for the song.

then I listen to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rYJfBfeY0g

it is still ok.

then i listen to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nP3JulxkyQ

she is a young or not mature vocalist.

my point is that we may interprete what we learn with what we like or dislike and with whatever our physical attributes may allow.

what the teacher or other students may do, and we may not do well, sometimes it is b/c our physical attributes are not allowing us to do the same. it is not that they know some secrets that we do not know about.

----

[MysteriousPower]

In a lot of the TCMA world, aka "mo lum" this talk of "secrets" has been flat out an excuse to cover NOT KNOWING SOMETHING

There is a lot of "advanced" and/or "secret" stuff in Pak hok/hop gar/lama but in the almost 2 decades I spent traveling and meeting with so-called "advanced masters" I can't tell you how many times behind closed doors when the BS was set aside, we found out they simply didn't know the stuff in question!

Often, being students of CTS, we knew it and they didn't and they asked US questions! :eek:



Tentigers, are you going to use your condescending tone against this gentleman as well since he is not agreeing with you? I bet not.

If a student decided to stay with a teacher because he was able to make his body vibrate then that student is a fool.

[David Jamieson]

Tentigers, are you going to use your condescending tone against this gentleman as well since he is not agreeing with you? I bet not.

If a student decided to stay with a teacher because he was able to make his body vibrate then that student is a fool.

why are you deliberately trying to start a peeing match?

you believe one thing, I don't share your belief.
You keep making stuff up about what you think are secrets.

There's lots that is secret I guess. that's probably why you don't know it?

then there's a lot that just isn't revealed right away. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but if you want to write off chinese martial arts because of your own perception of things, then go ahead.

But, no need to start baiting people, misconstruing what they say, attempting to turn others against each and so on.

yep, some kung fu teachers are crap charlatans.
yep, some kungfu teachers are total jerks, but have good kung fu anyway.
yep, some kungfu teachers should stick to qigong and neigong and leave it at that
yep, etc etc etc.

don't be so thick as to not be able to see why some people are taught some things and others are not.

[MysteriousPower]

why are you deliberately trying to start a peeing match?

you believe one thing, I don't share your belief.
You keep making stuff up about what you think are secrets.

There's lots that is secret I guess. that's probably why you don't know it?

then there's a lot that just isn't revealed right away. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but if you want to write off chinese martial arts because of your own perception of things, then go ahead.

But, no need to start baiting people, misconstruing what they say, attempting to turn others against each and so on.

yep, some kung fu teachers are crap charlatans.
yep, some kungfu teachers are total jerks, but have good kung fu anyway.
yep, some kungfu teachers should stick to qigong and neigong and leave it at that
yep, etc etc etc.

don't be so thick as to not be able to see why some people are taught some things and others are not.

There is no fun in peaceful conversation. Now be gone and allow me to bait away.

Maybe he will be smart and ignore the bait.

[TenTigers]

There is no fun in peaceful conversation. Now be gone and allow me to bait away.

Maybe he will be smart and ignore the bait.

Ever wonder if there's a reason why you don't get taught all the kewl secret stuff?

(I wouldn't teach you either:-):p

In all seriousness-Dave isn;t saying the same thing that you are.
There is a huge difference between saying a certain (secret) technique exists, and then not being able to come up with the goods, and then saying the reason why is because it's a secret.
and...
Having a very specific skill, and saying that it is not taught immediatly, or to outsiders.
CTS never made any claims, but taught real Kung-Fu, and backed up his teaching.
He outright scoffed at people who claimed lofty skills and then couldn't produce them in their students or in themselves.

[taai gihk yahn]

there are three reasons to keep secrets:
1) to hold secret some technology / methodology that, when engaged in a competitive activity w/another person, gives u an edge (war, sports, medicine, finance, tiddly-winks, etc.)

2) to preserve authenticity in terms of membership to a given group (mafia, kung-fu lineage, masons, Tony the Tiger's Secret Boys Club, masons)

3) stringing people along with promise of revealing secrets, whether or not they actualy exist;

of course, all 3 can get mixed and frequently do;

in TCMA, "secrets" be of several types:
1) where to hit someone; e.g. - vulnerable zones - and when the majority of the population didn't know squat about anatomy, this was valuable information; nowadays, anyone can do their homework and figure out where the body is more vulnerable;

2) how to hit someone - using certain types of "energy" to ostensibly to cause specific types of damage; again, this is probably more in function of the "where", that is, hitting a nerve cluster with a crane-beak versus the flat of the hand;

3) certain skill sets like hands-on sensitivity and efficiently issuing power - ok, fair enough, but this information is also acquired and used effectively across the board: GOOD wrestlers develop excellent "teng ging", GOOD boxers develop their own version of "fa jing", and GOOD European fencers develop excellent sticking / listening w/the sword; different path, same mountain-top...

4) internal practice: ok, so there is some funky stuff out there, some of which you might figure out on your own just by spending time sitting / standing quietly every day for an hour or so, but honestly, you could do just as well with an expert in pranayama and similar yogic disciplines to get the same sort of end results - Taoist internal stuff ain't all the different, there are certainly cultural mediated nuances, but that's about it; in this sub-set I would also include iron body, which is one thing that yoga doesn't cover, but I believe a lot of it isn't so much secrets as it is consistency and repetition...

5) medicine: can of worms, but contemporary medical knowledge vastly out does TCM in most areas; what it doesn't get, u can pretty much find in osteopathy (osteo manual pretty much blows away tuina), naturopathy, homeopathy and western herbology;

my point is this - if u go looking for secrets for their own sake (e.g. - I want to learn an esoteric tradition), u will find many people who have them; however, if u want results, then open ur eyes and take a look around at the world...

[SPJ]

qi vs zheng 奇 正

yes for every normal way, there is a suprise way.

to win is to expect the unexpected

to win is to surprise your opponent and not to be surprised by him.

here.

this is the secret.

otherwise, we all live under the same sun or the same blue sky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md-pYdROsD8&playnext_from=TL&videos=J8F6ViWo4_c

[KC Elbows]

Now be gone and allow me to bait away.


Too late. If you ask us nicely, we'll explain the Hakka secret that allows us to derail your trolls. It's traditional name is "Forum members fist Water-Quan". Perhaps you've seen it before, 65 post new guy.

Now stifle yourself, before we are forced to utilize the closed door technique called "this forum does not allow multiple ids" 65 post new guy.

Yours truly,

KC Elbows
President of the Council for giving 1997 its troll back.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I gots secrets too. I have techniques that belong to me alone, and I have taught these only to my son and grandson. I have developed 11 arm, wrist, and leg locks, and 2 strangles, one being a sleeper that can not be broken. Well, short of being shot anyway.

[SPJ]

yes. there are a lot of secrets in life.

I like a fish or sea food gumbo. once I went to a restaurant in new orleans. I tasted their fish gumbo. it has many flavors. and they are all mild, but you may taste each flavor out. it was perfect.

I really wanted to know their secrets.

I went to many other restaurants but nothing was tasted like theirs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r808dvUkWWk&feature=related

they had spice bags with all the right amount of ingredients.

the cooking temperture and timing had to be right---

the water has to be right. too much everything is diluted. too little the flavors will be too thick---

when the water level was low due to cooking, they added more to a certain level--

---

talking about secrets--

---

eventually, I got the secrets of a perfect gumbo.

hey hey.

:D

[TenTigers]

yes. there are a lot of secrets in life.

I like a fish or sea food gumbo. once I went to a restaurant in new orleans. I tasted their fish gumbo. it has many flavors. and they are all mild, but you may taste each flavor out. it was perfect.

I really wanted to know their secrets.

I went to many other restaurants but nothing was tasted like theirs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r808dvUkWWk&feature=related

they had spice bags with all the right amount of ingredients.

the cooking temperture and timing had to be right---

the water has to be right. too much everything is diluted. too little the flavors will be too thick---

when the water level was low due to cooking, they added more to a certain level--

---

talking about secrets--

---

eventually, I got the secrets of a perfect gumbo.

hey hey.

:D
perhaps not...
There are secrets, and there are secrets.
Not knowing this secret to the perfect Gumbo, is like learning Gung-Fu without Lien Gung. Only the outside appearance, but no inner essence.

Ahhh, but this secret is no real secret, yet knowing it, will not make your Gumbo good, just as knowing the technique will not make your Gung-Fu good.
You need to feel it to understand it.
Simply knowing the Gumbo secret is not the same as being able to produce good Gumbo.
I could give you my recipe, but without this knowledge, I can assure you , your Gumbo will not be nearly as good.

[SPJ]

all the talks

make me hungry.

:)

[Yum Cha]

What James Cama showed was long considered secret.

There is another kind of secret in TCMA nobody has alluded to, it comes from having the ability, experience and physical skill to understand something and figure it out yourself.

The secrets the Sifu knows, but can't show you. Wheat and chaff boys. Sifu doesn't appoint a successor, even if he may hand over a business. All the Todai know who's hands are the best at this and that, who has heart, who they look to. Nothing is given, and rarely absolute. The rest is just business.

Also, I can speak for myself and my brothers, we all have secret moves. That's part of the game. Having that little extra bizzo, or a combination you work up. You keep it until someone figures it out, then you make another. Hardly mystical....

Secrets, especially in Hakka or family styles, were to protect the style from defensive strategies. Thus, in part, the issues with teaching Gwai Lo.

I think it is an error to jump to the conclusion that "secrets" are all about money. A secret is worthless if you don't share it, and I've seen what happens when it is wasted, but for the most part, talent and respect are the keys to learning, as with any other pursuit you may undertake where you rely on a teacher.

And of course, as with many things in life, when you reach a certain age and a certain level, you can pick the people you want to associate with, you don't have to deal with every demanding wanker that comes along, or every smart a$$ thinking they got the goods. They may well have, and good on them, they certainly don't need to waste your time. You respect the subject and the teacher will respect you.

Maybe 10 years ago, Sifu told me he has now taught me everything he knows. He wasn't quite right.

[Yum Cha]

perhaps not...
There are secrets, and there are secrets.
Not knowing this secret to the perfect Gumbo, is like learning Gung-Fu without Lien Gung. Only the outside appearance, but no inner essence.

Ahhh, but this secret is no real secret, yet knowing it, will not make your Gumbo good, just as knowing the technique will not make your Gung-Fu good.
You need to feel it to understand it.
Simply knowing the Gumbo secret is not the same as being able to produce good Gumbo.
I could give you my recipe, but without this knowledge, I can assure you , your Gumbo will not be nearly as good.


It is a Journey of 10,000 pots....

[TenTigers]

Some secrets, as I said, only became secrets later, because people lost or forgot the formula, and only a small number now have access to it.
Here is one such secret:

[B]Jean Pierre's original "Bayou" Seasoning[/B

]1/4 cup Hungarian Paprika
1/4 cup Cayenne Pepper
1/4 cup Ground Black Pepper
1/4 cup Basil Leaf
1/2 cup Oregano
1/4 cup White Pepper
1 tsp Thyme

I have omitted the salt, as you can add to taste.
Depending on the recipe, I will add Rosemary, Garlic, etc.
this yields around 3 cups

keep this in your cupboard, it is good on anything-soups, salads, rimming the glass of a Bloody Mary,
It's really great mixed into an Alfredo Sauce!
and is one of the crucial ingredients to a perfect Gumbo....

[TenTigers]

Here is another Secret,
also very crucial to "Perfect Gumbo," and many other dishes as well. I use it as a base for my cornbread/crab/crawfish stuffed catfish, as well as my chowder version of the same.

Cajun Roux
3/4 cup Peanut Oil
1 cup Flour
1/2 cup Yellow Onion chopped coarse
1/2 cup celery, chopped coarse
1/4 tsp Bayou Seasoning

In a cast Iron skillet, heat the oil over a high flame until it begins to lightly smoke.
Gradually add the flour in while stirring and scraping the bottom of the pan. Use a wooden spoon. Continue cooking and stirring for six to ten minutes, or as soon as the Roux takes on a nice dark brown color.
Remove pan from heat and add the remaining ingredients. Whisk for 2 minutes to insure celery and onions don't burn. Set pan aside to cook, stirring mixture every couple of minutes for half an hour
put in a container and cover tightly-this will keep for several weeks.

(I doubt it will last you that long once you taste the possibilities!)

[Yum Cha]

Secrets of the master...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XyoAZFREnY

[taai gihk yahn]

hey Rik,

got anything for ratatouille? my kid's been bugging me to make it ever since he saw that movie w/the dam cooking rat...

[TenTigers]

sorry, no.
Got a good recipe, or know of a good local place for bouillabaisse?

[Frost]

back on topic (stop making me hungry) does anyone think that first video was actually any good...if it had been the second person doing the form (a nobody) would anyone be saying anything positive about it>

[sanjuro_ronin]

there are three reasons to keep secrets:
1) to hold secret some technology / methodology that, when engaged in a competitive activity w/another person, gives u an edge (war, sports, medicine, finance, tiddly-winks, etc.)

2) to preserve authenticity in terms of membership to a given group (mafia, kung-fu lineage, masons, Tony the Tiger's Secret Boys Club, masons)

3) stringing people along with promise of revealing secrets, whether or not they actualy exist;

of course, all 3 can get mixed and frequently do;

in TCMA, "secrets" be of several types:
1) where to hit someone; e.g. - vulnerable zones - and when the majority of the population didn't know squat about anatomy, this was valuable information; nowadays, anyone can do their homework and figure out where the body is more vulnerable;

2) how to hit someone - using certain types of "energy" to ostensibly to cause specific types of damage; again, this is probably more in function of the "where", that is, hitting a nerve cluster with a crane-beak versus the flat of the hand;

3) certain skill sets like hands-on sensitivity and efficiently issuing power - ok, fair enough, but this information is also acquired and used effectively across the board: GOOD wrestlers develop excellent "teng ging", GOOD boxers develop their own version of "fa jing", and GOOD European fencers develop excellent sticking / listening w/the sword; different path, same mountain-top...

4) internal practice: ok, so there is some funky stuff out there, some of which you might figure out on your own just by spending time sitting / standing quietly every day for an hour or so, but honestly, you could do just as well with an expert in pranayama and similar yogic disciplines to get the same sort of end results - Taoist internal stuff ain't all the different, there are certainly cultural mediated nuances, but that's about it; in this sub-set I would also include iron body, which is one thing that yoga doesn't cover, but I believe a lot of it isn't so much secrets as it is consistency and repetition...

5) medicine: can of worms, but contemporary medical knowledge vastly out does TCM in most areas; what it doesn't get, u can pretty much find in osteopathy (osteo manual pretty much blows away tuina), naturopathy, homeopathy and western herbology;

my point is this - if u go looking for secrets for their own sake (e.g. - I want to learn an esoteric tradition), u will find many people who have them; however, if u want results, then open ur eyes and take a look around at the world...

Chris has toe kicked the correct on the prostate !
Opps, sorry, I meant CV1

[MysteriousPower]

back on topic (stop making me hungry) does anyone think that first video was actually any good...if it had been the second person doing the form (a nobody) would anyone be saying anything positive about it>



Excellent point. Mr. Frost.

[Dale Dugas]

Chris has toe kicked the correct on the prostate !
Opps, sorry, I meant CV1

You meant Hui Yin, the Chinese name for CV1

Always fun to find on fellow students of acupuncture.....

[MysteriousPower]

back on topic (stop making me hungry) does anyone think that first video was actually any good...if it had been the second person doing the form (a nobody) would anyone be saying anything positive about it>

Your statement has silenced the my critics. What you have uncovered in this community is a form of media bias. A Sifu that is respected, has been around for awhile, and is friends with the main people of this board can do no wrong. He can put out an otherwise questionable video or product and be praised for it. If Hardwork8 put out the same vibrating form people would be saying he is having a seizure. But because it is the head of the freemasons and from an obscure art...it is a deadly secret that no one knows. A similar thing happened when I posted a video of someone breaking bricks and being hit in the wing chun forum and asking if this was considered real by the mma fighters of the board. Instead of calling the video into question I was attacked.

[Lucas]

reason #4 for holding secrets.

ITS MINE, ALL MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and im not sharing, ever.

some people just like to keep it to themselves, what ever 'it' is...

[KC Elbows]

Your statement has silenced the my critics. What you have uncovered in this community is a form of media bias. A Sifu that is respected, has been around for awhile, and is friends with the main people of this board can do no wrong. He can put out an otherwise questionable video or product and be praised for it. If Hardwork8 put out the same vibrating form people would be saying he is having a seizure. But because it is the head of the freemasons and from an obscure art...it is a deadly secret that no one knows. A similar thing happened when I posted a video of someone breaking bricks and being hit in the wing chun forum and asking if this was considered real by the mma fighters of the board. Instead of calling the video into question I was attacked.

I don't know or don't care about mantis or mantis guys. I don't know this guy.

However, since you admit to having two accounts...

[KC Elbows]

Why was it you change names every week, Water-quan?

What are you now, 40? And the best you got is straw man arguments?

Care to show the courage of your convictions and share the name of your regular handle, oh great heroic savior of all mankind?

[Lucas]

duh, to hide the secrets. :p

[KC Elbows]

duh, to hide the secrets. :p

Correct. And remember why he says one has secrets.

The irony.:D

[MysteriousPower]

Why was it you change names every week, Water-quan?

What are you now, 40? And the best you got is straw man arguments?

Care to show the courage of your convictions and share the name of your regular handle, oh great heroic savior of all mankind?


I think we are having a misunderstanding here. I am not water-quan. My name is mysterioupower. Can you read?

I am not sure why you have chosen me to go on sone sort of witch hunt but suit yourself. I would prefer to have women obssessed over me but I will ettle for kcelbows.

By your argument every new person that posts and has less than 1000 posts is a double account. That is not sane. Newbs
probably sign up here all the time.

Is it illegal to have a double account? No...so go f!uck yourself. Welcome to another fun day in internetland.

[bawang]

ur gay lol

[MysteriousPower]

Here is my experience in this matter. I had been baited by carrots of secrets which kept me interested. They were referred to as deadly and not for the public.

When I finally saw these deadly secrets I realized they all fell into certain categories:
1. They were minor variations of techniques I had seen for years.
2. They were variations of the same forms I had learned for years but this version could not leave the room.
3. They were little tricks that my teacher had idolized in his youth. His teachers told him this move was special and he kept it to hinself for years.
I am still with this teacher because he has given me a powerful base and because I respect him. But he will die with his "secrets" because I have lost interest in them.


This is my experience of another teacher:
When I looked at the list of what people learned in the higher levels do you know what I found? They were forms and forms and MORE forms! My higher level of training was not to teach me skills or fighting but to help increase my memory and concentration so that I could tell the
cops exactly what happened after getting my a$$ kicked from years of doing forms. Real physical contact is not introduced UNTIL 5 or 6 years after starting. No sparring or push hands or chi sao...till 6 years of basics. I left this teacher.

[KC Elbows]

I think we are having a misunderstanding here. I am not water-quan. My name is mysterioupower. Can you read?

I am not sure why you have chosen me to go on sone sort of witch hunt but suit yourself. I would prefer to have women obssessed over me but I will ettle for kcelbows.

By your argument every new person that posts and has less than 1000 posts is a double account. That is not sane. Newbs
probably sign up here all the time.

Is it illegal to have a double account? No...so go f!uck yourself. Welcome to another fun day in internetland.

I believe it is against forum rules to have dummy accounts.

More importantly, it's against the rules of the interweb to play a really old troll and pretend you're clever.

Sorry your teacher made you cry little boy tears.

[KC Elbows]

Here is my experience in this matter. I had been baited by carrots of secrets which kept me interested. They were referred to as deadly and not for the public.

When I finally saw these deadly secrets I realized they all fell into certain categories:
1. They were minor variations of techniques I had seen for years.
2. They were variations of the same forms I had learned for years but this version could not leave the room.
3. They were little tricks that my teacher had idolized in his youth. His teachers told him this move was special and he kept it to hinself for years.
I am still with this teacher because he has given me a powerful base and because I respect him. But he will die with his "secrets" because I have lost interest in them.


This is my experience of another teacher:
When I looked at the list of what people learned in the higher levels do you know what I found? They were forms and forms and MORE forms! My higher level of training was not to teach me skills or fighting but to help increase my memory and concentration so that I could tell the
cops exactly what happened after getting my a$$ kicked from years of doing forms. Real physical contact is not introduced UNTIL 5 or 6 years after starting. No sparring or push hands or chi sao...till 6 years of basics. I left this teacher.

I'm sorry, I wasn't reading that, could you post it again so we could not care further?

[MysteriousPower]

I believe it is against forum rules to have dummy accounts.

More importantly, it's against the rules of the interweb to play a really old troll and pretend you're clever.

Sorry your teacher made you cry little boy tears.


Hey smart guy,

I will tell you this once so you can sleep at night. I am me and this is my only account.

Here is a smart question for a smart guy. Since anyone can have multiple email accounts...and that is all you need to have an account here...how can you ever k ow who has a double account? Because you feel like I post like some other dude? Smart guy

[Yum Cha]

I liked the Mantis guy. What he is demonstrating is a narrow skill. Its not an overall representation of anything to my mind, just the demonstration of a kind of power, skill, technique, whatever.

Again, back to secrets. What he demonstrates is very hard to understand. Some people admire it, some say its 'funny'. Its the result of years of training and commitment, not a weekend seminar, if you catch my drift. Its like casting pearls before swine from his point of view I would imagine. So, it becomes secret...?

[SPJ]

shaking or vibrating energy

it exists and is stressed in many styles to a different degree.

in tai chi, you may shake wrists/hands, arms, shoulders, the whole body etc

it would impart disruptive energy to the opponent when contact

it could also be part of strikes--

---

[TenTigers]

Here is my experience in this matter. I had been baited by carrots of secrets which kept me interested. They were referred to as deadly and not for the public.

When I finally saw these deadly secrets I realized they all fell into certain categories:
1. They were minor variations of techniques I had seen for years.
2. They were variations of the same forms I had learned for years but this version could not leave the room.
3. They were little tricks that my teacher had idolized in his youth. His teachers told him this move was special and he kept it to hinself for years.
I am still with this teacher because he has given me a powerful base and because I respect him. But he will die with his "secrets" because I have lost interest in them.


This is my experience of another teacher:
When I looked at the list of what people learned in the higher levels do you know what I found? They were forms and forms and MORE forms! My higher level of training was not to teach me skills or fighting but to help increase my memory and concentration so that I could tell the
cops exactly what happened after getting my a$$ kicked from years of doing forms. Real physical contact is not introduced UNTIL 5 or 6 years after starting. No sparring or push hands or chi sao...till 6 years of basics. I left this teacher.
yeah. I get that.
But, simply because you had this experience with these teachers, does not mean that everyone else falls into this catagory.
(Although, I agree with you that this is far too prevalent, especially in CMA. Probably due to the lack of qualified teachers. Many of these unqualified teachers most definatly dangle carrots for the reasons you give.)
However...
Sometimes, "secrets" are simply skills that are held back until a strong grounding in the foundational skills are developed.
As much as we would like to, we cannot run until we can crawl, then walk, etc.
As my foundational skills developed, more "higher level" technique was "revealed" to me.
Having experienced it, I can say with conviction, that my teacher is right in his methods.
After feeling his hand, I can say that there are skills that I cannot yet perform. Some I can barely fathom. But having felt them, I know that it is something that am willing to patiently work towards.
No mystery here. It is simply the development of skill.
If it were TKD, would you get upset if a white belt was not taught jumping spinning kicks, if his basic kicks were not well developed? Of course not.
This is a silly conversation, and you are behaving like a spoiled child.

[MysteriousPower]

yeah. I get that.
But, simply because you had this experience with these teachers, does not mean that everyone else falls into this catagory.
(Although, I agree with you that this is far too prevalent, especially in CMA. Probably due to the lack of qualified teachers. Many of these unqualified teachers most definatly dangle carrots for the reasons you give.)
However...
Sometimes, "secrets" are simply skills that are held back until a strong grounding in the foundational skills are developed.
As much as we would like to, we cannot run until we can crawl, then walk, etc.
As my foundational skills developed, more "higher level" technique was "revealed" to me.
Having experienced it, I can say with conviction, that my teacher is right in his methods.
After feeling his hand, I can say that there are skills that I cannot yet perform. Some I can barely fathom. But having felt them, I know that it is something that am willing to patiently work towards.
No mystery here. It is simply the development of skill.
If it were TKD, would you get upset if a white belt was not taught jumping spinning kicks, if his basic kicks were not well developed? Of course not.
This is a silly conversation, and you are behaving like a spoiled child.



I liked your post right up until you became condescending at the end. Your tjd analogy is completely off. A spinning jump kick is tangible but a promise of being able to learn how to vibrate your body(and actually use this in combat) is completely different. I have noticed that you still have not given an example of one of these supposed secrets. You are obviously nervous that no one will take you seriously once you reveal what your teacher held back from you.

When you say you have felt your teachers hand does that mean you actually fought/sparred with him or were you playing patty cake chi sao/drills. I could demonstrate almost any skill in that environment because my partner is not resisting me. I am not the one living in secret power fantasy land. Bjj teachers have no problem rolling with their students. It is only in cma that teachers "demonstrate" skills I stead of actually pulling them off and having to teach.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment.
Yes, that video of Master Cama sucks, we can't argue that.
It sucks because it looks crappy, flicky and rather gay and if it was anyone else doing that we would be all over him.
But the difference is that Master Cama is a highly respected teacher and because of that, we let people like that get away with posting crap because, well, we assume that there is a reason for that.
If Anderson Silva posted a video doing a form that looked silly, it still wouldn't take away from what WE KNOW to be his skill, but to an outsider he would look like a fool.
It's ok for us to admit that we are bias.
It doesn't change that the form looked as strong, fast and powerful as someone trying to whip a sticky booger off their finger.

[taai gihk yahn]

Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment.
Yes, that video of Master Cama sucks, we can't argue that.
It sucks because it looks crappy, flicky and rather gay and if it was anyone else doing that we would be all over him.
But the difference is that Master Cama is a highly respected teacher and because of that, we let people like that get away with posting crap because, well, we assume that there is a reason for that.
If Anderson Silva posted a video doing a form that looked silly, it still wouldn't take away from what WE KNOW to be his skill, but to an outsider he would look like a fool.
It's ok for us to admit that we are bias.
It doesn't change that the form looked as strong, fast and powerful as someone trying to whip a sticky booger off their finger.
Having won the Internetz, where will u find the space in ur house to store it?

[MysteriousPower]

Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment.
Yes, that video of Master Cama sucks, we can't argue that.
It sucks because it looks crappy, flicky and rather gay and if it was anyone else doing that we would be all over him.
But the difference is that Master Cama is a highly respected teacher and because of that, we let people like that get away with posting crap because, well, we assume that there is a reason for that.
If Anderson Silva posted a video doing a form that looked silly, it still wouldn't take away from what WE KNOW to be his skill, but to an outsider he would look like a fool.
It's ok for us to admit that we are bias.
It doesn't change that the form looked as strong, fast and powerful as someone trying to whip a sticky booger off their finger.

Nice post, Sanjuro. Let us all take a deep breathe and take a step back. Sometimes online posts seem more vicious than intended. My criticisms are not toward James Cama because frankly I do not know him or even of him, do not care about him, and do not care about praying mantis Kung Fu.

I noticed that the styles that have the secrets do not have a lot of material to teach to begin with. Material has to be held back or else students will get bored and leave after doing line drills for a year. They also do not do a lot of physical contact in terms of sparring. Styles that have hand drills have tons of secrets that are too deadly to be used during sparring so they have to be drilled safely in compliant two-man drills thousands of times for ten years. In functional martial arts, like judo, the only secret is how to throw that big fuk who kept throwing you last week and the secret to that is practice and praying.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having won the Internetz, where will u find the space in ur house to store it?
Next to my Golden C0ck award from my time in P0rn.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice post, Sanjuro. Let us all take a deep breathe and take a step back. Sometimes online posts seem more vicious than intended. My criticisms are not toward James Cama because frankly I do not know him or even of him, do not care about him, and do not care about praying mantis Kung Fu.

I noticed that the styles that have the secrets do not have a lot of material to teach to begin with. Material has to be held back or else students will get bored and leave after doing line drills for a year. They also do not do a lot of physical contact in terms of sparring. Styles that have hand drills have tons of secrets that are too deadly to be used during sparring so they have to be drilled safely in compliant two-man drills thousands of times for ten years. In functional martial arts, like judo, the only secret is how to throw that big fuk who kept throwing you last week and the secret to that is practice and praying.

I think that you need to remember that what many systems do NOW has very little to do with what they did when they became "reknown".
I think that many TCMA teachers have been so exposed to "hippies" and "kung fu fairies" that they just naturlaly assume that most are like that, untill proven otherwise and then they teach the "good stuff" to them.
This was very common in the old days and many still have that MO.
I don't agree, but it is what it is.
ANY MA system can be applicable in months and one can be proficient in it in a couple of years, of course to master anything takes a lifetime, but that is not what I am talking about.
Many things were always left to the "end" in TCMA, Iron hand, Iron body, longevity training, "lineage" forms, things liek that, that didn't make them seret per se, only guard and to be shown at the right time.
Remember, there are NO SECRETS when it comes to fighting, BUT ever system always had something that hold in "reserve" for those special occasions and those "secrets" tend to chaneg with times and they tend to evolve and be added ( or removed) by subsequent teachers.

[TenTigers]

I liked your post right up until you became condescending at the end.

sorry for that. :rolleyes:

I have noticed that you still have not given an example of one of these supposed secrets.

cause it's a secret, dolt!

You are obviously nervous that no one will take you seriously once you reveal what your teacher held back from you.

You are obviously projecting.
Like I said, your experience is not my experience.
Man, you got some deep scars there. You gotta let that sh1t go. Move on with your life. Don't ever get divorced, dude. You'll never recover.

When you say you have felt your teachers hand does that mean you actually

fought/sparred with him

tried to-got lit up pretty fast.

I am not the one living in secret power fantasy land.

Actually, you are. You feel that everyone has had the same experience as you, and every teacher is full of it.
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with these teachers.

It is only in cma that teachers "demonstrate" skills I stead of actually pulling them off and having to teach.

Actually, no. Again.
I know of many high level teachers in arts like Aikijujitsu, Jiu-jutsu, Hapkido, Judo,Shuai-Jiao,etc who at their age, no longer take hard falls, (it takes its toll after years and years of falls, wrist locks, etc) but still have tremendous knowledge and skill. They "demonstrate" on their students and then make hands on corrections.
I don't think Angelo Dundee traded blows with Ali, do you?

Look, for those who have shared your experience, you're preaching to the choir. For the rest, you come off like a spoiled, immature, crybaby. Probabaly a teenager, or in your twenties.
If you're older, then you've got some issues.
So basically, why are you still here?

[Frost]

Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment.
Yes, that video of Master Cama sucks, we can't argue that.
It sucks because it looks crappy, flicky and rather gay and if it was anyone else doing that we would be all over him.
But the difference is that Master Cama is a highly respected teacher and because of that, we let people like that get away with posting crap because, well, we assume that there is a reason for that.
If Anderson Silva posted a video doing a form that looked silly, it still wouldn't take away from what WE KNOW to be his skill, but to an outsider he would look like a fool.
It's ok for us to admit that we are bias.
It doesn't change that the form looked as strong, fast and powerful as someone trying to whip a sticky booger off their finger.

god are all you canadians so polite and nice:)

well point and exactly on the money

[David Jamieson]

god are all you canadians so polite and nice:)

well point and exactly on the money

You realize that "polite" and "nice" are by-products of good morals and a decent education right? :)

[TenTigers]

on a more serious note,
power generation, such as specific short powers, require training.
It is not so much a secret, as it is a skill that is aquired over time.
So, to the beginner, it is something down the road.
The ability to intercept someone's attack before it gets out of the gate is a skill that requires impeccable timing, sense of distance, reaction, body position, angles-these are skills, that again, require time, effort,training. (does the term, "Gung-Fu" strike a familiar tone?)
The ability to align your structure so to be able to rock someone twice your size comes only after many years of practice. To do so under pressure of attack, requires many more.
To develop the ability to strike with intent to do serious damage, while remaining calm and under control, and the ability to do so at will at a moment's notice, requires training and time.
To combine all of these, under pressure, takes even more time.
These aren't secrets.
But these are skills that cannot simply be taught to a beginner. Sure they can be discussed, demonstrated, instructed on a foundational level,and the seeds can be planted, but the skill takes years.

The secret is time, effort, hard work, patience, commitment. Gung-Fu.

[TenTigers]

ok, here's another "Secret."
Various forms of iron palm, require not simply striking a bag and using dit da jow.
However in its basic level, it requires that the student practice a specific regimen, 2-3 times a day, every day for a hundred days, for starters. In some cases, it is also required that the student remain celibate.
That in itself is a difficult task. Usually it is not taught to beginners, but "held back" for advanced training, simply because it requires a commitment to training and discipline that the beginner student does not yet possess.
Now, add to this the fact that many types of injury can be developed by improper practice, and the need for a qualified Sifu to monitor your progress is neccesary.
This Sifu must have knowledge of healing not simply superficial bruises and sprains, but possible internal damage.
If there is noi-gung involved, even more careful monitoring must be done.
Certain forms of noi-gung can cause mental stress. Someone walking that fine line, or has underlying issues, can without guidance, have serious mental/ emotional problems. If a Sifu gets an idea that this will occur, the training is not taught to that student.
None of the above would be considered, dangling a carrott.
Then again, depending on who you are, it might.

[Frost]

on a more serious note,
power generation, such as specific short powers, require training.
It is not so much a secret, as it is a skill that is aquired over time.
So, to the beginner, it is something down the road.
The ability to intercept someone's attack before it gets out of the gate is a skill that requires impeccable timing, sense of distance, reaction, body position, angles-these are skills, that again, require time, effort,training. (does the term, "Gung-Fu" strike a familiar tone?)
The ability to align your structure so to be able to rock someone twice your size comes only after many years of practice. To do so under pressure of attack, requires many more.
To develop the ability to strike with intent to do serious damage, while remaining calm and under control, and the ability to do so at will at a moment's notice, requires training and time.
To combine all of these, under pressure, takes even more time.
These aren't secrets.
But these are skills that cannot simply be taught to a beginner. Sure they can be discussed, demonstrated, instructed on a foundational level,and the seeds can be planted, but the skill takes years.

The secret is time, effort, hard work, patience, commitment. Gung-Fu.

everything takes time and effort no one is disputing that, but how much time and are the end results worth it,,thats a question and a half

if these skills you talk about take so long to learn and develop then why bother...seriously if you can learn to generate enough power via the sport arts to KO someone from a matter of inches with hooks upper cuts etc and to do this under pressure as well all in a matter of months or a few years then are these arts obsolete?

[MysteriousPower]

on a more serious note,
power generation, such as specific short powers, require training.
It is not so much a secret, as it is a skill that is aquired over time.
So, to the beginner, it is something down the road.
The ability to intercept someone's attack before it gets out of the gate is a skill that requires impeccable timing, sense of distance, reaction, body position, angles-these are skills, that again, require time, effort,training. (does the term, "Gung-Fu" strike a familiar tone?)
The ability to align your structure so to be able to rock someone twice your size comes only after many years of practice. To do so under pressure of attack, requires many more.
To develop the ability to strike with intent to do serious damage, while remaining calm and under control, and the ability to do so at will at a moment's notice, requires training and time.
To combine all of these, under pressure, takes even more time.
These aren't secrets.
But these are skills that cannot simply be taught to a beginner. Sure they can be discussed, demonstrated, instructed on a foundational level,and the seeds can be planted, but the skill takes years.

The secret is time, effort, hard work, patience, commitment. Gung-Fu.

When the tcm's of developed these techniques they were using them in times of war. They had months to train for actual combat and could not wait years. How did these Kung Fu soldiers become proficient in months and not years? What did they do differently instead of mindless drilling? The answer to that is the key. It was not till times of peace that styles started being formed and categorized as short, long, internal, external, wc, mantis, etc. It was all just martial arts. What we can take from this is that fighting skills should not take years. What takes years is specialty in a certain martial arts and the associated skills with it. The skills you mentioned sound like specialized skills that may not ever be developed since it takes "years.". When will the years be over? The skills are extra and are not necessarily needed.

[David Jamieson]

When the tcm's of developed these techniques they were using them in times of war. They had months to train for actual combat and could not wait years. How did these Kung Fu soldiers become proficient in months and not years? What did they do differently instead of mindless drilling? The answer to that is the key. It was not till times of peace that styles started being formed and categorized as short, long, internal, external, wc, mantis, etc. It was all just martial arts. What we can take from this is that fighting skills should not take years. What takes years is specialty in a certain martial arts and the associated skills with it. The skills you mentioned sound like specialized skills that may not ever be developed since it takes "years.". When will the years be over? The skills are extra and are not necessarily needed.


the average soldier wasn't using high level kungfu. he was using a gun, and before that a blade or long weapon.

warfare skills were pretty much focused on how to retain and use a weapon.

There were not armies of high level kungfu warriors. at best, there may have been a band or two here and there throughout history.

Iron skills are developed by professional mercenaries, defenders etc as opposed to regular soldiers.

But, I would say the 100 day regimen is not "years" either. It's 3 months and 2 weeks.

That's 2 weeks longer than a P90X regimen program. Nothing to say that a lot of soldiers could have trained iron skills.

as for real skill, well it doesn't matter what the subject it DOES take years to get beyond just good at it.

true mastery of anything, any subject, any field or discipline is said to take 10,000 hours or about 10 years of consistent and diligent practice.

at least, according to study material on the matter, that's what it takes.

you can be an ok boxer in year one, but in year 10, with diligent and mindful practice, you should be stellar. If not, you missed your calling. lol

[SPJ]

unfortunately in times of war

the soldiers have only 3 to 6 months of combat training, open hand, gunnery, bayonate, or da dao --

they only have limited practice and off you go and fight in a battlefield.

most of them would die.

somehow, you survive and gain first hand experience

more and more fighting and survive with more experience

--

with some luck, you may be assigned to be an instructor to teach basic training to new recruits

or advance things you learned first hand to special op or commando

--

that is just fact of life.

as a new recruit you may not ask for years and years of training--

---

[TenTigers]

I know of a highly skilled MAist who trains with another.
The teacher asked him,"Your skill is exceptional. Your power is astounding. You are a Master in your art. Why do you want to learn from me?"
His answer was,"Because there is a quality of energy, a specific type of skill that you have, that I want to learn."
It's that simple.
People who train to achieve higher level skills fully realize that these skills aren't so much neccesary for basic fighting.
They are on a different path.
They can already fight, and they are now at a point where they want to develop their skill and themselves to a different level.
It is no longer about simply winning a fight.
It's not about the ring or the cage.
It's about always improving, evolving, growing, fine tuning and honing your skill to laser precision.
It's about knowing that there is always a higher mountain.
There is a sky above sky, skill above skill.
For some, that is reason enough to devote your life to your art.

[KC Elbows]

I feel we all needed to be lectured on our bias by someone who makes a strong point not to mention by name his two instructors who he said taught him wrong. Yes, we're the ones needing correcting, he's free of giving a break to teachers well known to him.:rolleyes:

Not that he actually had those teachers in the recent past.

I didn't comment on the vids, and I don't know and hadn't heard of Cama. I'm not familiar with mantis, and I know staring at a form doesn't change that. But of course, I'm protecting him. Stupid logic.

What I know is that Mysterious Power already admitted to being a troll on this thread. He isn't who and what he says he is, he's a guy with a beef with tma who wants to use straw man arguments to attack all cma. So why deal with him as anything else? Why treat his arguments about secrets as serious when he himself is doing exactly what he says we must not?

MMA troll. And not a new or good one. He should be treated as such.

He's not twenty. He's in his thirties. He'll be trolling other people in his forties, fifties, and the magic of the internet, unless it is constantly pointed out, will hide from him the fact that making fake ids and playing troll games at a certain age becomes very lame.

Guys like this are not on the whole damaging the reps of the bad kung fu schools in any serious way, they're doing more damage to the newer schools who are more modern in their training, who are more open, less secretive, and more alive in their training, but just getting their start. The bad schools don't rely on legitimacy, but on mystery. The thing about a mystery with no solution is that there is no solving it, and no proving, unless its creator says so, that there is no solution. So the guys who get hit most are the ones who don't try to benefit from mystery.

To happily back this on our forum is stupid. Such trolls have nothing to do with cma, except to try to damage the reputation of all by projecting the conduct of the worst on the rest, including the best. The last thing on this guy's mind is the good of cma. Bring up schools using modern methodology and more open about their practices, do exactly what this type of troll SAYS they want, and they will avoid that topic and call you a forms collector, or some other libel.

The lamest troll is one in which you are saying exactly what you believe anyway. It means you're a coward, period, and it's not truly a troll, it's a back alley way to libel people without attaching your own commonly known id to it. It's not predominantly cma guys doing this to kung fu, and we all know it.

Now, I've got some coconuts in the oven, and anyway, you people need to understand that it's not so easy for me post and continuously spar all day. Ooh, touched the top of your head lightly, my point.

[TenTigers]

Let me ask you. What is the difference between rolling with someone who has 3-5 years experience in grappling, and someone who has 15 years?

[KC Elbows]

What we can take from this is that fighting skills should not take years.

Please name each mma champ who became champ in months, in triplicate.

Then, provide all the detailed training regimens of the current champs, to verify that they don't keep secrets.

Thank you.

[KC Elbows]

Let me ask you. What is the difference between rolling with someone who has 3-5 years experience in grappling, and someone who has 15 years?

Amount of time trolling forums?

[Dale Dugas]

I know of a highly skilled MAist who trains with another.
The teacher asked him,"Your skill is exceptional. Your power is astounding. You are a Master in your art. Why do you want to learn from me?"
His answer was,"Because there is a quality of energy, a specific type of skill that you have, that I want to learn."
It's that simple.
People who train to achieve higher level skills fully realize that these skills aren't so much neccesary for basic fighting.
They are on a different path.
They can already fight, and they are now at a point where they want to develop their skill and themselves to a different level.
It is no longer about simply winning a fight.
It's not about the ring or the cage.
It's about always improving, evolving, growing, fine tuning and honing your skill to laser precision.
It's about knowing that there is always a higher mountain.
There is a sky above sky, skill above skill.
For some, that is reason enough to devote your life to your art.

Quoted for truth.

This is why we do not use the word master in our association. No one really masters anything as you can always improve and get better.

People that feel they can master things are boxing themselves in and limiting their potential.

[MysteriousPower]

I know of a highly skilled MAist who trains with another.
The teacher asked him,"Your skill is exceptional. Your power is astounding. You are a Master in your art. Why do you want to learn from me?"
His answer was,"Because there is a quality of energy, a specific type of skill that you have, that I want to learn."
It's that simple.
People who train to achieve higher level skills fully realize that these skills aren't so much neccesary for basic fighting.
They are on a different path.
They can already fight, and they are now at a point where they want to develop their skill and themselves to a different level.
It is no longer about simply winning a fight.
It's not about the ring or the cage.
It's about always improving, evolving, growing, fine tuning and honing your skill to laser precision.
It's about knowing that there is always a higher mountain.
There is a sky above sky, skill above skill.
For some, that is reason enough to devote your life to your art.


Most tcma's just do it as a hobby. All this training for years to develop secret special skills is called hobby martial arts. There is nothing wrong with this but I think that hobby martial artists should stop talking about how proficient they are at fighting. "we already know how to fight so we are beyond learning basics to learn fighting.". Talk like that just makes traditional martial artists makes them sound crazy. If Anderson Silva decided to train special skills like iron palm than that would make sense because he is actually proficient at the basics of fighting. He would actually be able to use iron palm.

[RenDaHai]

What we can take from this is that fighting skills should not take years. What takes years is specialty in a certain martial arts and the associated skills with it. The skills you mentioned sound like specialized skills that may not ever be developed since it takes "years.". When will the years be over? The skills are extra and are not necessarily needed.

Why does a sprinter spend so long trying to shave a fraction of a second off a 100m sprint? Why does an artist want to develop better and better works, if they are selling well enough as they are?

There is a big difference in china between Wushu and Kung Fu. Wushu, MA, can be developed very quickly, weeks to months. There were always military styles of Wushu. But Kung Fu is nothing to do with this, Wushu was just a path to begin you studying Kung Fu. Yoga is as much Kung Fu as wushu is.

My favourite quote ' From the perpetual persuit of the highest springs a series of realisations, each of which gives us the joy and pride of conquest. We then use these realisations, these forces gained over ourselves, in the realisation of another goal, of a form more nearly perfect'. - Yoritomo Minamoto, I think this describes the persuit of skill rather well. In kung Fu it doesn't matter what the skill is, you go on forever making it better, because you are not just bettering the skill, you are bettering your whole life. Kung fu is about reaching ones full potential and increasing ones quality of life. Its not just about combat.

People who have trained for long walk without fear, not because they are over confident of their skills but because they are content with their place in the world and whatever their fate may be. So at this point they don't worry about combat.....And they are free to use KungFu to imporve their life in other ways.

[KC Elbows]

# of members on this thread who have, at some point in their time here, criticized practices in some kung fu styles that prevents their being used effectively: all of them.

# of members who have done nothing to solve the problem or improve the situation: 1

# of members pretending otherwise: 1

And now, a moment of silent prayer thanking the patronizing and paternalistic for saving us all from the patronizing and paternalistic.

Thank you for coming, next time please try not to leave so much Gracie nut on the welcome mat.

[MysteriousPower]

Why does a sprinter spend so long trying to shave a fraction of a second off a 100m sprint? Why does an artist want to develop better and better works, if they are selling well enough as they are?

There is a big difference in china between Wushu and Kung Fu. Wushu, MA, can be developed very quickly, weeks to months. There were always military styles of Wushu. But Kung Fu is nothing to do with this, Wushu was just a path to begin you studying Kung Fu. Yoga is as much Kung Fu as wushu is.

My favourite quote ' From the perpetual persuit of the highest springs a series of realisations, each of which gives us the joy and pride of conquest. We then use these realisations, these forces gained over ourselves, in the realisation of another goal, of a form more nearly perfect'. - Yoritomo Minamoto, I think this describes the persuit of skill rather well. In kung Fu it doesn't matter what the skill is, you go on forever making it better, because you are not just bettering the skill, you are bettering your whole life. Kung fu is about reaching ones full potential and increasing ones quality of life. Its not just about combat.

People who have trained for long walk without fear, not because they are over confident of their skills but because they are content with their place in the world and whatever their fate may be. So at this point they don't worry about combat.....And they are free to use KungFu to imporve their life in other ways.


Sprinters run sprints to shave that second off their time. They do not do running "forms" to become faster. They just sprint.

[KC Elbows]

What were the names of your two teachers again, the ones that you don't protect like you say others protect Cama? And your name?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know of a highly skilled MAist who trains with another.
The teacher asked him,"Your skill is exceptional. Your power is astounding. You are a Master in your art. Why do you want to learn from me?"
His answer was,"Because there is a quality of energy, a specific type of skill that you have, that I want to learn."
It's that simple.
People who train to achieve higher level skills fully realize that these skills aren't so much neccesary for basic fighting.
They are on a different path.
They can already fight, and they are now at a point where they want to develop their skill and themselves to a different level.
It is no longer about simply winning a fight.
It's not about the ring or the cage.
It's about always improving, evolving, growing, fine tuning and honing your skill to laser precision.
It's about knowing that there is always a higher mountain.
There is a sky above sky, skill above skill.
For some, that is reason enough to devote your life to your art.

I couldn't agree more.
When I took up, again, Hung Kuen a few years ago, the Sifu asked me WHY?
With all I could already do and had experience, why bother?
It was more personal that I care to go into right now, but He had soemthing I wanted for my MA.
As it turned out, his brother was pretty good with SPM too and because I was sincer, open and willing t share what I knew with them and their family, I was exposed to SPM too.
Have I learned anything that made me a better fighter? Not really, not anything I need a teacher for, but I have learned things that helped me become a better MA.

[KC Elbows]

I couldn't agree more.
When I took up, again, Hung Kuen a few years ago, the Sifu asked me WHY?
With all I could already do and had experience, why bother?
It was more personal that I care to go into right now, but He had soemthing I wanted for my MA.
As it turned out, his brother was pretty good with SPM too and because I was sincer, open and willing t share what I knew with them and their family, I was exposed to SPM too.
Have I learned anything that made me a better fighter? Not really, not anything I need a teacher for, but I have learned things that helped me become a better MA.

One day you're against animists, the next your doing mantis.

**** Canadians, call it ham and they're confused, but mention backbacon and they're at your place every morning.

[Yum Cha]

Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment.
Yes, that video of Master Cama sucks, we can't argue that.
.... the form looked as strong, fast and powerful as someone trying to whip a sticky booger off their finger.

I'll take your lesson on this one Ronin. Not having seen that much SPM, but what I have seen generally looked like that. Shaking all over with short jabs. I thought the boogie flippin was part of the art!

Can you post a video of SPM you like as a better reference? To help me along?

I know that in Pak Mei, that (faat ging) element of our striking is more integrated with other moves, but you do practice it in more isolation at higher levels. It doesn't look like a fighting form...on the surface. Of course, its like a bowl of frosting isn't a cake. But it makes the cake a lot better...

[sanjuro_ronin]

One day you're against animists, the next your doing mantis.

**** Canadians, call it ham and they're confused, but mention backbacon and they're at your place every morning.

Our beer kicks your beers Ass !!!
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll take your lesson on this one Ronin. Not having seen that much SPM, but what I have seen generally looked like that. Shaking all over with short jabs. I thought the boogie flippin was part of the art!

Can you post a video of SPM you like as a better reference? To help me along?

I know that in Pak Mei, that (faat ging) element of our striking is more integrated with other moves, but you do practice it in more isolation at higher levels. It doesn't look like a fighting form...on the surface. Of course, its like a bowl of frosting isn't a cake. But it makes the cake a lot better...

The Jook lum I have seen tends to be this way, though one of the oldest clips of JL Mantis doesn't it show it that way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g

The one I was exposed to came from Macao, but it was heavly influenced by Hung Kuen so it tends to be less "flicky" and more "powerful".

Not like this one, but you can see the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xVI_ODKhEo&feature=related

[KC Elbows]

Our beer kicks your beers Ass !!!
:D

Clueless kickboxer, you fell for our trick! Our beer has no ass to kick, it merely tastes like it does!

[MysteriousPower]

everything takes time and effort no one is disputing that, but how much time and are the end results worth it,,thats a question and a half

if these skills you talk about take so long to learn and develop then why bother...seriously if you can learn to generate enough power via the sport arts to KO someone from a matter of inches with hooks upper cuts etc and to do this under pressure as well all in a matter of months or a few years then are these arts obsolete?


I love it how you all ignored Frost's post. Does anyone have a decent reply to this? Why develop skills that may or may NOT manifest after YEARS of training or spend most of the time training skills that can be developed in months?

[KC Elbows]

I love it how you all ignored Frost's post. Does anyone have a decent reply to this? Why develop skills that may or may NOT manifest after YEARS of training or spend most of the time training skills that can be developed in months?

Almost everyone replied to this. At least one of the replies was from a former semi-pro fighter, but apparently you know better.

Which reminds me.

How can you criticize others about supposedly covering for 'respected sifus' when you do so for not one, but two on this thread? Who were these sifus and who are you?

And, if mastery can be done in months, where are the champions becoming so after months of training?

And, if mma has no secrets, please provide the detailed training regimens of the current champs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love it how you all ignored Frost's post. Does anyone have a decent reply to this? Why develop skills that may or may NOT manifest after YEARS of training or spend most of the time training skills that can be developed in months?

Actually, I missed that post...
But:

if these skills you talk about take so long to learn and develop then why bother...seriously if you can learn to generate enough power via the sport arts to KO someone from a matter of inches with hooks upper cuts etc and to do this under pressure as well all in a matter of months or a few years then are these arts obsolete?

Many of those skills, Iron Hand, Iron Body for example, are done so that you have those skills INSPITE of physical ability, in other words, they will be there with you forever and don't require excellent physical attributes to be effective.
Learning to KO someone with typical power, like boxing for example, is "easy" and the learning curve is small, IF you are athletic and young, but you will notice that, this explosive power is not long lasting, though some of it always stays with you too.
Now, it doesn't mean that you stop being athletic or being physical as you get older and that IH will make up for that, NO, that is not correct.
What it does mean is that there is a difference between "short term" skill and 'long term skill".
Not sure if I am wording this right and if you get what I mean...

[MysteriousPower]

The Shogun beat Machida after 5 months of intense training and became the light heacy weight champion. His main weapon in both fights was roundhouse kicks to the legs...not vibrating.

Nazmeeky beat Maoshan which is viewable on YouTube. Naz had only been training 4 years whileaoshan had been training since age 9. Moashan was having a great time hitting his body against a tree but that did not help him win.

You love me KCelbows. Just admit it. You do not like how my comments poke holes in your beliefs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Shogun beat Machida after 5 months of intense training and became the light heacy weight champion. His main weapon in both fights was roundhouse kicks to the legs...not vibrating.

Nazmeeky beat Maoshan which is viewable on YouTube. Naz had only been training 4 years whileaoshan had been training since age 9. Moashan was having a great time hitting his body against a tree but that did not help him win.

You love me KCelbows. Just admit it. You do not like how my comments poke holes in your beliefs.

All valid points that illustrate two things:
1) Basic rule !
2) If you wanna fight, your training must include actually FIGHTING PEOPLE !

[Frost]

Almost everyone replied to this. At least one of the replies was from a former semi-pro fighter, but apparently you know better.

Which reminds me.

How can you criticize others about supposedly covering for 'respected sifus' when you do so for not one, but two on this thread? Who were these sifus and who are you?

And, if mastery can be done in months, where are the champions becoming so after months of training?

And, if mma has no secrets, please provide the detailed training regimens of the current champs.

actually nobody replied to my post quoting it but there you go, mastery takes a long time no matter what the style, but the basics should be learned and taught in months..if it cant then the style is ineffective

the training of the current champs isn;t that secret, we all know GSP is working on: his stand up wrestling and ground game and conditioning, its not like he is practising a new well of developing power on the side for lords sake

[Yao Sing]

I love it how you all ignored Frost's post. Does anyone have a decent reply to this? Why develop skills that may or may NOT manifest after YEARS of training or spend most of the time training skills that can be developed in months?

Ok, so you develop that skill in a matter of months, then what? What does a person, who intends to spend his life working out and training, do after he/she develops that skill?

I really don't see the problem with someone choosing the long road. And I REALLY don't see why that bothers certain people so much.

Now to make sure we're all on the same page concerning length of time to develop certain skills could you please state the skills in question? What exact skills are you talking about?

[MysteriousPower]

Actually, I missed that post...
But:


Many of those skills, Iron Hand, Iron Body for example, are done so that you have those skills INSPITE of physical ability, in other words, they will be there with you forever and don't require excellent physical attributes to be effective.
Learning to KO someone with typical power, like boxing for example, is "easy" and the learning curve is small, IF you are athletic and young, but you will notice that, this explosive power is not long lasting, though some of it always stays with you too.
Now, it doesn't mean that you stop being athletic or being physical as you get older and that IH will make up for that, NO, that is not correct.
What it does mean is that there is a difference between "short term" skill and 'long term skill".
Not sure if I am wording this right and if you get what I mean...


I understand completely. Do you think Royce Gracie cannot submit anyone even though genus older? He got spanked by Matt Hughes. No doubt about that. Are you saying him and Mike Tyson would not be able to hurt peope in 20 years? I think they would still possess much of their ability although age and stamina definitely play a factor. This goes for both mma and tcm. Lam Sai Wing, in his 60's I believe, got the crap beat out of him by a much younger Lam Sang. I bet Lam Sai Wing had some of those long term abilities you mentioned but they did not help him.

[Frost]

Actually, I missed that post...
But:


Many of those skills, Iron Hand, Iron Body for example, are done so that you have those skills INSPITE of physical ability, in other words, they will be there with you forever and don't require excellent physical attributes to be effective.
Learning to KO someone with typical power, like boxing for example, is "easy" and the learning curve is small, IF you are athletic and young, but you will notice that, this explosive power is not long lasting, though some of it always stays with you too.
Now, it doesn't mean that you stop being athletic or being physical as you get older and that IH will make up for that, NO, that is not correct.
What it does mean is that there is a difference between "short term" skill and 'long term skill".
Not sure if I am wording this right and if you get what I mean...

i understand your point just not sure if i agree with it, whilst we all know explosive power diminishes in time the abitilty to put your whole body into a strike and KO them does not, hence the stories of old boxers knocking out robbers etc

i have trained in two different types of short range power issuing: one southern and one via tai chi training and for me there was nothing magical about them, it was just learning to issue whole body power through a focused point..and being able to do this in a fight as opposed to a demo was another thing all together

[Frost]

Ok, so you develop that skill in a matter of months, then what? What does a person, who intends to spend his life working out and training, do after he/she develops that skill?

I really don't see the problem with someone choosing the long road. And I REALLY don't see why that bothers certain people so much.

Now to make sure we're all on the same page concerning length of time to develop certain skills could you please state the skills in question? What exact skills are you talking about?

there is a difference between learning the basics and refining them (the latter can take years) you can learn the basics of grappling (hip movement, body position, basicv moves etc) in months but to become really good takes decades

[KC Elbows]

The Shogun beat Machida after 5 months of intense training and became the light heacy weight champion. His main weapon in both fights was roundhouse kicks to the legs...not vibrating.

Nazmeeky beat Maoshan which is viewable on YouTube. Naz had only been training 4 years whileaoshan had been training since age 9. Moashan was having a great time hitting his body against a tree but that did not help him win.



The Shogun started Muay Thai at 15 years old, bjj at 17. Try again.

No idea who Nazmeeky is, heard the name Moashan on here, don't know him either. Four years is a long way off from six months, but nice anecdote.

Are you saying any six month practitioner of boxing will have ko power? Most boxing coaches wish that were true. Many pro boxers never rack up much in the way of ko's.

Again, if you're gonna criticize people for covering for 'respected sifus', why avoiding the fact that your bs story is based around you covering for sifus? Didn't design your troll well, didja? Not the first time with you.

And no, I don't really love you, it's an act I put on for your momma's benefit.

[Yao Sing]

Sprinters run sprints to shave that second off their time. They do not do running "forms" to become faster. They just sprint.

Ahh, finally the essence of the percieved "problem". It always comes down to an aversion to "forms".

Doesn't matter the everyone agrees you can't excel as a fighter on forms alone, some people still like to build that strawman.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I understand completely. Do you think Royce Gracie cannot submit anyone even though genus older? He got spanked by Matt Hughes. No doubt about that. Are you saying him and Mike Tyson would not be able to hurt peope in 20 years? I think they would still possess much of their ability although age and stamina definitely play a factor. This goes for both mma and tcm. Lam Sai Wing, in his 60's I believe, got the crap beat out of him by a much younger Lam Sang. I bet Lam Sai Wing had some of those long term abilities you mentioned but they did not help him.

No, you didn't understand my post.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i understand your point just not sure if i agree with it, whilst we all know explosive power diminishes in time the abitilty to put your whole body into a strike and KO them does not, hence the stories of old boxers knocking out robbers etc

i have trained in two different types of short range power issuing: one southern and one via tai chi training and for me there was nothing magical about them, it was just learning to issue whole body power through a focused point..and being able to do this in a fight as opposed to a demo was another thing all together

There is nothing magical, that is not the issue.
The point is that there is a difference between developing short term and long term skill/ability and TCMA address that.
As you know, the longer you do a skill, the better you will be at it and the longer it will stay with you, but you can also develop it quicker by being more "HIT" about it, like what is done typically in sport combat systems.
Physcial ability is crucial and the better athlete will be the better fighter and youth does, typically, trump age and experience, we all KNOW this and have seen this over and over, that is NOT the point though.
You do BOTH types of training in the MA, the ones to develop short term fighting ability ( shot term in regards to how quikcly they develop, not how they last) and you do long term ones.

[KC Elbows]

actually nobody replied to my post quoting it but there you go, mastery takes a long time no matter what the style,

Aside from the statement about basics in six months, the rest of what you are saying has been repeated by several on the last few pages. As for basics, are you suggesting that a six month practitioner in bjj knows all the moves of bjj? Muay thai?

Only in boxing is that even close to likely.

Now, you could state that what they need to function in bjj is covered in the first six months, and I'd agree, that's a good approach. Where's the disagreement? Nowhere. But refining the basics doesn't generally happen in that time for most. Nor does knowledge of a large number of moves in that style. A six month bjj practitioner is not proficient in even a small minority of the techniques. But they should be competent. This is a good way to train. Again, where's the disagreement, unless one is proposing straw man arguments on all others without asking, which is more than a bit lame.

Now, onto a further point. What kind of busybody cares how long others choose to take to reach their goals, what goals they enjoy, etc? Without using straw man arguments saying we are all saying we are killing machines and our way is the only way(when we aren't saying that), is your argument relevant to all the people it gets applied to? Likely not. But guys like Mysterious, with his failed ring experience and irrelevance to mma, get to feel like big boys doing so, and the real fighters give them a break that they hypocritically don't give others, because they apparently can't get over the ego trip of having nutriders. But in the end, no one finds any reason to respect guys in their mid thirties trolling the internet.

[Frost]

There is nothing magical, that is not the issue.
The point is that there is a difference between developing short term and long term skill/ability and TCMA address that.
As you know, the longer you do a skill, the better you will be at it and the longer it will stay with you, but you can also develop it quicker by being more "HIT" about it, like what is done typically in sport combat systems.
Physcial ability is crucial and the better athlete will be the better fighter and youth does, typically, trump age and experience, we all KNOW this and have seen this over and over, that is NOT the point though.
You do BOTH types of training in the MA, the ones to develop short term fighting ability ( shot term in regards to how quikcly they develop, not how they last) and you do long term ones.

so are you saying these skills take longer to develop but stay with you into old age whilst the skills developed in sports arts die off quicker......

[Yao Sing]

there is a difference between learning the basics and refining them (the latter can take years) you can learn the basics of grappling (hip movement, body position, basicv moves etc) in months but to become really good takes decades

Now I'm confused. Isn't that what all the CMA guys have been saying all this time?

The bulk of CMA fits with your comment. The exceptions would be the specialized skills which not everyone attempts to master. I've done Kung Fu a long time and I've never done any specialized skills training. I just try to get better than I was in the past.

Or are you saying CMA basics can't be learned in months (not true)?

[Frost]

Aside from the statement about basics in six months, the rest of what you are saying has been repeated by several on the last few pages. As for basics, are you suggesting that a six month practitioner in bjj knows all the moves of bjj? Muay thai?

Only in boxing is that even close to likely.

Now, you could state that what they need to function in bjj is covered in the first six months, and I'd agree, that's a good approach. Where's the disagreement? Nowhere. But refining the basics doesn't generally happen in that time for most. Nor does knowledge of a large number of moves in that style. A six month bjj practitioner is not proficient in even a small minority of the techniques. But they should be competent. This is a good way to train. Again, where's the disagreement, unless one is proposing straw man arguments on all others without asking, which is more than a bit lame.

Now, onto a further point. What kind of busybody cares how long others choose to take to reach their goals, what goals they enjoy, etc? Without using straw man arguments saying we are all saying we are killing machines and our way is the only way(when we aren't saying that), is your argument relevant to all the people it gets applied to? Likely not.

the point being was it was stated that there are some skills that take much longer to learn but (which it is implied by some) are of much higher value and worth staying with.

my point was what skills and are they THAT much better that those extra years are worth putting in?

if the answer to you is yes than good for you and have fun, if the answer is no but i enjoy training them then again good for you enjoy yourself, but if the honest answer is no they to me are not that much better than skills that take less time to learn then perhaps those arts and skills deserve to die out

[KC Elbows]

so are you saying these skills take longer to develop but stay with you into old age whilst the skills developed in sports arts die off quicker......

Old dogs like having more tricks. Getting on the internet telling them not to is silly. assuming, based on one's limited experience, that nowhere else has any addition worth studying is also silly. Argiung with SR about the value of studying lots of martial arts is even more silly.

[Frost]

Old dogs like having more tricks. Getting on the internet telling them not to is silly. assuming, based on one's limited experience, that nowhere else has any addition worth studying is also silly. Argiung with SR about the value of studying lots of martial arts is even more silly.

sorry i was simply asking him to clarify his point...and asking someone to clarify his point is not the same as argueing now is it

but thanks for your 2 pennys worth

[KC Elbows]

the point being was it was stated that there are some skills that take much longer to learn but (which it is implied by some) are of much higher value and worth staying with.




Implied by who here? Who are you arguing with? SR said he felt both were important. That's as close as I can find to anyone implying what you say.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so are you saying these skills take longer to develop but stay with you into old age whilst the skills developed in sports arts die off quicker......

To an extend, yes, but BOTH require daily mainteance.
EX of Iron hand training.
The process is a 2 year training regime (typically) and it is very LOW intensity and LOW impact, that is why it is a long period.
Yet the results are quite good, I know, I have done them and even compared an x-ray of my IP hand before and after training for 2 years, the difference was noticible.
Now, one can develop a good striking hand in less time, obviously and one DOES.
See IH is NOT done to develop striking power but to refine and finish it.
Certainly not everyone's cup of tea for a mirad of reasons and that's OK too.
You develop your striking ability to the max and THE you start IH and you will notice a difference.
Even as your athlect prowess decreases and your "KO power" decreases with age, the IP is still there because it is NOT dependant on those attributes, but it is STILL dependant on training and a delivery platform, know what I mean?

Same goes for IB training, it is a longer process then typical sport combat training and is best done as a complement to it, but it takes far less toll on the body.

[Frost]

Implied by who here? He the **** are you arguing with? SR said he felt both were important. That's as close as I can find to anyone implying what you say.

i like to think SR and i get on ok..and i have never said anything like this about him, he knows his MA and his credentials are very very good, unfortunatly others on here don;t have his expereince..or his polite manner

[KC Elbows]

sorry i was simply asking him to clarify his point...and asking someone to clarify his point is not the same as argueing now is it




A straw man is an argument, forgive me for calling it what it is.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Specialised skills for me have always been a touchy matter and here is why:
Nothing is more crucial to a fighter than:
Basics and Physical attributes.

Fighting is a young man's game, period.

But I have felt and have seen and have done things with specialized skills that makes me know that are valid, AFTER the above has been "mastered".

Another example is force multiplies, the specialized kuen's like the Phoenix-eye fist.

I once demoed how much of a factor they ( force mulitpliers) are by using a pen to show how just a pen can change the outcome of a fight. the Kubotan is anoterh example, as are brass knuckles.
No one denies they things chaneg the face of a fight, but bring up "PE fists, dragon fists, leopard fists, etc" and everyone rolls their eyes, why?
Simple, they are HARD to develop (and painful) and for most people they feel, why bother?

[KC Elbows]

i like to think SR and i get on ok..and i have never said anything like this about him, he knows his MA and his credentials are very very good, unfortunatly others on here don;t have his expereince..or his polite manner

I was not implying you were saying that about him, I was suggesting that some of your argument is being applied as though others here were actually disagreeing with elements of it that they were not. Which does not count as polite, either.

I don't disageree with your central points, except the idea that there is anyone disagreeing or saying that someone shouldn't be able to learn to handle themselves from six months of training.

To be fair, I am not always as polite as SR, but neither are you, or most forum dwellers. However, I assume the best about the people I'm arguing with, obvious dummy accounts set up to passive agressively call others frauds and LARPers without ever achieving anything in training excepted.

[Yao Sing]

Iron Palm is a good example because the body can only rebuild so fast. You can do things to help speed it along, like celebacy, but it's still going to take time for the hands to physically change.

[PlumDragon]

But I have felt and have seen and have done things with specialized skills that makes me know that are valid, AFTER the above has been "mastered".

Another example is force multiplies, the specialized kuen's like the Phoenix-eye fist.

I once demoed how much of a factor they ( force mulitpliers) are by using a pen to show how just a pen can change the outcome of a fight. the Kubotan is anoterh example, as are brass knuckles.
No one denies they things chaneg the face of a fight, but bring up "PE fists, dragon fists, leopard fists, etc" and everyone rolls their eyes, why?
Simple, they are HARD to develop (and painful) and for most people they feel, why bother?
Sanjuro, I usually agree quite closely with your posts, but not on this particular topic: Over the years, we always hear the argument that TCMA produces skills that may come more slowly than sport arts but they last into old age. I adamantly disagree with this.

At the end of the day, muscular force is the prime mover, regardless whether you subscribe to TCMA or MMA or whatever. A boxer can refine their movement in the same way as any TCMA can and its terribly crazy to me to think that this is even disputible. The curve does not "catch up" in TCMA after some number of years.

Because we are speaking of SPM and the PE fist, Ill just mention that having spent years training SPM in the past, Ive seen many of that population produce unhealthy postures, screwed up shoulders, and problems with their finger joints. Rather than be able to maintain skills into old age, these guys take on crippled looks of pain. And while the many that dont experience this can still move pretty well, they are subject to the exzct same biomechanics of old age that anybody from any other physical activity is: How well can you use your body despite the lapse of strength, etc.? And the answer is, how optimal was your approach all those years?

Iron palm is different, primarily because the building process can only go so fast. However, there is (at least there is in many types of iron palm) a component to iron palm training that deals with power production, and its not just simply dropping your hand onto a bag. And this component can be trained at a much faster rate than the actual conditioning itself. But when your testing yourself by breaking bricks, its important to build the hand such that it can accept the stress of the impact.

TMCA has a lot of great material and concepts within. It has fantastic culture, fantastic diversity, and a great deal of breadth and depth in many methods and topics. One can pick a direction and run with it, very likely confident they will never run out of material to train. But is it optimal training? No; not after 1 year, and not after 30...And Im surprised thats even up for debate. People dont train TCMA because its the optimal path for "fighting" or building power. They train it because its what they enjoy, what they love...And I dont blame em; theres a lot there to love! ;)

[KC Elbows]

Some people like to come on here, have valid training, ability and knowledge, and speak to others as though everyone else were the worst example of martial artists.

Some people come with the same, and speak openly and respectfully.

The first use stock arguments, and only rarely say anything that is worth reading in all the tomfoolery.

The latter almost always do.

Then you get the Mysterious Powers, guys with none of the above, but who know a guy or train, with their mediocre intensity, talent, and focus, with someone who does. They train there as part of their posturing, they enter the ring and learn little from it in order to posture further.

Only one of that group has any claim to being respectful, and one is merely a type of passive aggressive fraud, the other a mannerless and authoritarian wanker.

Assuming that all need one's lessons is haughty and badsifulike.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro, I usually agree quite closely with your posts, but not on this particular topic: Over the years, we always hear the argument that TCMA produces skills that may come more slowly than sport arts but they last into old age. I adamantly disagree with this.

You need to re-read my post, I said SOME skills are produced over a long period of time, not all.


At the end of the day, muscular force is the prime mover, regardless whether you subscribe to TCMA or MMA or whatever. A boxer can refine their movement in the same way as any TCMA can and its terribly crazy to me to think that this is even disputible. The curve does not "catch up" in TCMA after some number of years.

I agree that a boxer CAN do that, I also know that many don't, some don't even try.


Because we are speaking of SPM and the PE fist, Ill just mention that having spent years training SPM in the past, Ive seen many of that population produce unhealthy postures, screwed up shoulders, and problems with their joints. Rather than be able to maintain skills into old age, these guys take on crippled looks of pain. And while the many that dont experience this can still move pretty well, they are subject to the exzct same biomechanics of old age that anybody from any other physical activity is: How well can you use your body despite the lapse of strength, etc.? And the answer is, how optimal was your approach all those years?

yes, the "mantid posture" is something to be aware of and is an example of things done to the extreme and in an "unnatural" way.


Iron palm is different, primarily because the building process can only go so fast. However, there is (at least there is in many types of iron palm) a component to iron palm training that deals with power production, and its not just simply dropping your hand onto a bag. And this component can be trained at a much faster rate than the actual conditioning itself. But when your testing yourself by breaking bricks, its important to build the hand such that it can accept the stress of the impact.

Agreed, also why IP should be taken up AFTER force production has been accomplished at a good degree.


But is it optimal training? No; not after 1 year, and not after 30...And Im surprised thats even up for debate. People dont train TCMA because its the optimal path for "fighting" or building power. They train it because its what they enjoy, what they love...

Unfortunately you are correct to an extent, TCMA are not done, typically, in the most optimal way, but that is the fault of the teachers AND students, not the MA.

[PlumDragon]

You need to re-read my post, I said SOME skills are produced over a long period of time, not all.Fair enough. Although, can you elaborate a bit? What skills do you think need to be produced over a long period of time that cannot be trained in a more optimal way?



I agree that a boxer CAN do that, I also know that many don't, some don't even try.To each their own, its all about objective. Coincidentally, if they have trained the way most boxers train, they dont need to put any additional effort in, its already there.



Unfortunately you are correct to an extent, TCMA are not done, typically, in the most optimal way, but that is the fault of the teachers AND students, not the MA.I have a friend/student who believes that the quality of the Martial Art is defined by the proficiency of the Artist, and the teacher, and all the other practitioners. The more and more I think about it, the more and more I agree with it. One can claim that the art is not at fault all day long. But if 90-100% of the proponents of the art practice in that way, well thats really what defines the art. In order for this to become an issue it not being the arts fault, the art must continue to evolve towards an optimal method. And then the teacher and practitioners will follow suit.

Bottom line, an art is most accurately defined by the collective skills of each person within that art, and their ability to improve.

[KC Elbows]

I don't think bjj white belts have any impact on what exactly bjj is. The style is being defined for them, not by them.

The style as described defines the style. If those who know the style fail to pass it on, this has no bearing in what the style was, only on its transmission.

In other words, if fighter A does style X, and those who follow him do X2, it does not magically make it that fighter A did style X2, or that those who follow do X.

That said, things progress, but this does not make later incarnations synonymous with the earlier ones.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair enough. Although, can you elaborate a bit? What skills do you think need to be produced over a long period of time that cannot be trained in a more optimal way?

Ip, Ib, forging are examples that come to mind.
But I don't think that shorter time = optimal and I think that is what you are saying, yes?


To each their own, its all about objective. Coincidentally, if they have trained the way most boxers train, they dont need to put any additional effort in, its already there.
Most boxers are not into boxing for the "long run", not in a way comparable to MA.


Bottom line, an art is most accurately defined by the collective skills of each person within that art, and their ability to improve.

Yes, but an art is dead it is NOT alive so IT can't be blamed for its lack of effectiveness, can it?

[PlumDragon]

I don't think bjj white belts have any impact on what exactly bjj is. The style is being defined for them, not by them.Sure thats true, no argument. But when we have many BJJ white belts with 6 months training compared to the skill level and proficiency of many similarly ranked and time-in students of another *similar* art, we should expect to see a direct correlation of the effectiveness of the art--it hints very closely to what the art is capable of accomplishing in 6 months time.

Obviously white belts/sashes of any art do not define the art itself. These people will learn the art as it is passed down from the more competent and more skilled individuals. And, if the individuals passing the art down are largely unskilled, then the art is at a detriment. Sure, it all boils down to the fault of people, its as much our fault that an art is what it is, that it exists, or that it has gone into extinction; and so it goes that we drive what an art is.

If I tell you 1 method of teaching people to type consistently produces 50 wpm with no mistakes after 6 months, but another method only consistently produces 39 wpm with no mistakes after 6 months, are you going to tell me that the 39 wpm "method" is just as good, but that the method isnt being taught correctly or the student doesnt care as much? We can call something an art or method, write some theoretical manual, and set it on a pedastal...But its all irrelevant if the art or system or method turns out something that is consistently less effective, given equivalent training time, etc etc...





Ip, Ib, forging are examples that come to mind.
But I don't think that shorter time = optimal and I think that is what you are saying, yes?Well, iron palm and iron body are not what I would really consider "skills". They are attribute development. I would imagine this is about all that could be added to the list though, because they have to do with a physiological and metabolic function, not ones ability to become skillful.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, optimal has to do with what produces greatest growth over a given measure of time. I suppose shorter time is optimal, but what Im really referring to is refining a desired skill as efficiently as possible.

Growth in our given pursuit is what we are all looking for; not just now, but always. Certainly, if I am a runner, then getting really good at stuffing hot dogs down my throat is not best suited, and if Im interested in push hands, then formwork doesnt make much sense; that is, its not the best use of time, it doesnt support optimal growth in that objective.

I suppose one viewpoint is that the claim is that TCMA produces a more well-rounded individual with a more philosophical focus? Nevertheless Ive felt as much philosophical growth, if not more, in the FMA that I teach than Ive experienced in the Chinese systems Ive trained. Thats not to say thats the norm, and I dont mean to attack TCMA (because I love it too)...But I hope its enough to illustrate that its not necessarily "optimal" itself in this regard.

So, again I would pose the question: Other than the ip & ib which have already been mentioned, what types of skills require more time to develop, and to add to that: If you dont think that maximum growth in a given measure of time is optimal, then what is your opinion?




Most boxers are not into boxing for the "long run", not in a way comparable to MA.Be that as it may, it doesnt change the fact that they use their body in an efficient manner that allows them to produce long-lasting results that meet their objective. And the same holds true for soccer players and swimmers and dancers.




Yes, but an art is dead it is NOT alive so IT can't be blamed for its lack of effectiveness, can it?As I mention above, if you want to place blame, we are the creators and destroyers of all of our own devices and are to "blame". The art just is what it is...and it is only what it is because of what we make it. If the students of X art suck, and the teachers suck, well then it doesnt really matter what kind of ideal or written theoretical tablet the style prescribes to....Because it is defined entirely by the people. That is, its not the arts "fault" and Im not trying to blame something on an art. Im jsut saying, an art is what the practitioners make it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, iron palm and iron body are not what I would really consider "skills". They are attribute development. I would imagine this is about all that could be added to the list though, because they have to do with a physiological and metabolic function, not ones ability to become skillful.

Ah, I understand what you mean now.


So, again I would pose the question: Other than the ip & ib which have already been mentioned, what types of skills require more time to develop, and to add to that: If you dont think that maximum growth in a given measure of time is optimal, then what is your opinion?


There are gross motor skills and fine ones and those that combine both, a punch based on swinging your arm is a gross motor skill and one based on arm swinging with body behind it is more of a "fine" one while a punch with swing, body and "whipping" ( jing) behind it is an even finer one.
And obviously that requires more time and skill and training to develop, I think we can agree on that, right?
Now, HOW MUCH more is dependant on the person, some guys get it quick, others more time.
Now, there are "skills" that require a long tiem to cultivate because rushing them can lead to injury and complications, IP and IB fall here, but also the "forging" process of the PE fist for example.
It takes longer to develop a PE fist than the regular one and rushing it can lead to serious injury.
Do we agree on that too?

What is optimal to me?
Well, honestly, in terms of time it is whatever time is need to develop that skill as quick as possible AND as safe and injury free as possible.
Sometimes that means taking a slower pace than we would like.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Be that as it may, it doesnt change the fact that they use their body in an efficient manner that allows them to produce long-lasting results that meet their objective. And the same holds true for soccer players and swimmers and dancers.

Ah, yes and no.
I would argue with the 'long-lasting" because as I am sure you are aware of too, sports and health don't always go hand in hand, do they?
Competition drives as to be the best at any given moment and NOT to focus that much on the future, sure longevity is A part of it, but not THE part of it.
Soccer players play with injuries, rush treatments, over train and what not, to be more competitive as do boxers, swimmers, gymnast and so forth.
Many times athletes succeed in SPITE of their training habits.
But yes, I agree that sports training is designed to get the best results in the quick amount of time.

[PlumDragon]

There are gross motor skills and fine ones and those that combine both, a punch based on swinging your arm is a gross motor skill and one based on arm swinging with body behind it is more of a "fine" oneI would contend that the process of refining both the gross and fine motor skills as you illustrate takes place over the years, whether we focus on it or not. I also think that training them out of context ends up being largely a waste of time. If you spend the time to develop these types of punches with no pressure from a partner, then you may spend several years getting it jsut right in drills before trying to apply it. Meanwhile, a small few systems put you into pressured situations from day 1 and allow the body to take care of both the gros motor skills at the same time it learns to adapt to the pressure. Then, once the pressure feels more comfortable (in context of the goals at hand), the gross motor skills are already in place and one can spend their time working on the finer details...I believe this is more optimal using yoru definition, whether we are talking about 6 months in to training, or 35 years.




while a punch with swing, body and "whipping" ( jing) behind it is an even finer one. And obviously that requires more time and skill and training to develop, I think we can agree on that, right?Everything equal, yes, this will require more time than the above. However, thats not to say that varying methods wont produce growth at a faster rates (all the way through ones training) than others.



Now, HOW MUCH more is dependant on the person, some guys get it quick, others more time.True. But if your goal is to build skill, something that you can access under pressure, then the method you use will govern how quickly, how deeply, and how solidly each individual person can progress.



It takes longer to develop a PE fist than the regular one and rushing it can lead to serious injury. Do we agree on that too?Yes, generally, Id agree the PE fist takes longer to condition. I know Im nitpicking here and I appreciate you bearing with me, but a side note to that is this: Having spent a few years conditioning the PE fist myself, my first question to people I talk to who train it now is: Why? What do you feel that you get out of it? What advantage do you think it serves? They are rhetorical questions, but there are a lot of reasons I stopped training it, one of which being that I just dont think training the knuckles like that is very good for the long-term, which, if you agree, would go against your definition below of optimal.



What is optimal to me? Well, honestly, in terms of time it is whatever time is need to develop that skill as quick as possible AND as safe and injury free as possible. Sometimes that means taking a slower pace than we would like.I think that is a very good definition. I like your addition of safety to that...

[PlumDragon]

Ah, yes and no.
I would argue with the 'long-lasting" because as I am sure you are aware of too, sports and health don't always go hand in hand, do they?
Competition drives as to be the best at any given moment and NOT to focus that much on the future, sure longevity is A part of it, but not THE part of it.
Soccer players play with injuries, rush treatments, over train and what not, to be more competitive as do boxers, swimmers, gymnast and so forth.
Many times athletes succeed in SPITE of their training habits.
But yes, I agree that sports training is designed to get the best results in the quick amount of time.Thats true, no argument there. Coincidentally, I think that PE fist training belongs there too! ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thats true, no argument there. Coincidentally, I think that PE fist training belongs there too! ;)

I think that, the way most train it, I would agree.
But if it is trained and developed like IP, I think it can be forged without many issues.


Having spent a few years conditioning the PE fist myself, my first question to people I talk to who train it now is: Why? What do you feel that you get out of it? What advantage do you think it serves? They are rhetorical questions, but there are a lot of reasons I stopped training it, one of which being that I just dont think training the knuckles like that is very good for the long-term, which, if you agree, would go against your definition below of optimal.

I think that having a "loaded weapon" is a good thing, but not for every body.
Do you think that carrying a kubatan or a "tekko" would be advantageous in a fight?

[KC Elbows]

If I tell you 1 method of teaching people to type consistently produces 50 wpm with no mistakes after 6 months, but another method only consistently produces 39 wpm with no mistakes after 6 months, are you going to tell me that the 39 wpm "method" is just as good, but that the method isnt being taught correctly or the student doesnt care as much? We can call something an art or method, write some theoretical manual, and set it on a pedastal...But its all irrelevant if the art or system or method turns out something that is consistently less effective, given equivalent training time, etc etc...

Good posts. On this point, and here's the rub: given that whoever is being trained is a normal human, it will not take longer to learn A than B, where they are not totally dissimilar in complexity. So the basic punches and kicks from system to system, not too different, same amount of time to ingrain them. So, given that we all agree that the systems don''t approach punching, kicking, throws, and locks in too dissimilar a fashion, if there is a difference in the time it takes to get proficiency, it has nothing to do with those moves, which comprise the styles, but in how they are trained.

So, when you get a guy who does five years of kung fu, leaves it because the methodology doesn't allow the practitioners to approach the style, and goes to something with a more useful methodology(training methodology, which is not related to style as much as culture and history), that person gains a capacity to judge the new style based on effectiveness, but, unless they do the same with the previous style, they do not have that capacity in any real sense. They do have a Fair gripe with the training environment, but the style has never gotten a proper introduction to them.

What kung fu needs, and many are doing the reforms necessary to get, is people training kung fu like fighters, whatever they wish to do with it from there. What kung fu does not need is people who previously never trained it with aliveness making proclomations about it's usefulness, either positive or negative, based on their lack of proper, meaning relevant and alive, training.

I for one do not consider it to require endless training under a teacher to gain competence in kung fu. If one is learning many styles of it, perhaps longer, but each style of open hand can be approached by a competent individual in a reasonable time if they are given the info and the environment to ingrain it. Add weapons and all, and again those will require time for each, but we're talking open hand for the most part.

You can't compare results in ingraining styles between two completely different training approaches and rule out the training methodology as the cause in order to blame the style instead.

[Sam]

U.S. Open Martial Arts Championship James Cama's Hung Ching Students

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Congratulations to my students for their participation in the 2010 U.S. Open Martial Arts Championship at Queens College N.Y. on June 6th.
Ryan Prezioso Advanced Chi Sao Gold 1st, Two Man Form Silver, Southern Short Hand Form Bronze.
James Cama Jr. Advanced Chi Sao Silver, Two Man Form Silver, Advanced Push Hands Silver.
Mathew August Intermediate Chi Sao Gold 1st, Two Man Form Gold 1st.
Ian August Intermediate Chi Sao Silver, Two Man Form Gold 1st.
Alan Sterns Intermediate Chi Sao 36yrs up Gold 1st, Stationary Push Hands Silver.
Dane Smith Begining Chi Sao Gold 1st.
Anthony Fusco age 11 Begining Chi Sao Gold 1st, Push Hands Bronze.
James Cama Sifu C.F.M.A
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=072BE4286D754892
http://www.martialartsview.com/index-106.html

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX60tdwPEcc

WTF?

I Don't know what this is either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhTkGq1DdqM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed96yw-EBfk
I've fought tooth and nail with this man the one above seem to lack certain essence IMO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed96yw-EBfk

Yeah, I always loved Sifu Manny's stuff.
How's he been doing by the way?

[Dale Dugas]

Thanks Brother,

always good to see Chuka South Mantis.

[Lokhopkuen]

Yeah, I always loved Sifu Manny's stuff.
How's he been doing by the way?

I saw him a few weeks ago. Gained some weight, beating cancer like the rest of us whom pursue daily cultivation routines.;)

Might be in your necka der woodz soon young man:D
Ready to do it big?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I saw him a few weeks ago. Gained some weight, beating cancer like the rest of us whom pursue daily cultivation routines.;)

Might be in your necka der woodz some young man:D
Ready to do it big?

Yeah, I know what you mean, big time...

Would be awesome to see you, if they let you past customs !
LOL !

[Lokhopkuen]

Yeah, I know what you mean, big time...

Would be awesome to see you, if they let you past customs !
LOL !

I'll throw the gud stuff over the fence, flash my handy dandy US Passport CARD, tap dance passed the Mounties, sidle along the fence for my contraBAND, then sashay by casa de Ronin with some flowerz fo Mizus Ronin an t der gud stuff fo der Master;):D:rolleyes:

[MysteriousPower]

Good posts. On this point, and here's the rub: given that whoever is being trained is a normal human, it will not take longer to learn A than B, where they are not totally dissimilar in complexity. So the basic punches and kicks from system to system, not too different, same amount of time to ingrain them. So, given that we all agree that the systems don''t approach punching, kicking, throws, and locks in too dissimilar a fashion, if there is a difference in the time it takes to get proficiency, it has nothing to do with those moves, which comprise the styles, but in how they are trained.

So, when you get a guy who does five years of kung fu, leaves it because the methodology doesn't allow the practitioners to approach the style, and goes to something with a more useful methodology(training methodology, which is not related to style as much as culture and history), that person gains a capacity to judge the new style based on effectiveness, but, unless they do the same with the previous style, they do not have that capacity in any real sense. They do have a Fair gripe with the training environment, but the style has never gotten a proper introduction to them.

What kung fu needs, and many are doing the reforms necessary to get, is people training kung fu like fighters, whatever they wish to do with it from there. What kung fu does not need is people who previously never trained it with aliveness making proclomations about it's usefulness, either positive or negative, based on their lack of proper, meaning relevant and alive, training.

I for one do not consider it to require endless training under a teacher to gain competence in kung fu. If one is learning many styles of it, perhaps longer, but each style of open hand can be approached by a competent individual in a reasonable time if they are given the info and the environment to ingrain it. Add weapons and all, and again those will require time for each, but we're talking open hand for the most part.

You can't compare results in ingraining styles between two completely different training approaches and rule out the training methodology as the cause in order to blame the style instead.

I need to inject a little humor to all this serious posting. This is a small matter but I need to bring it up.

KC Elbows, no matter how much you disagree with me or try to demonize me everything we argue about is philosophical. None of us is right or wrong...until now. Frost confirmed that nobody respnded to his post from a couple of pages ago even though you vehemenently disagreed with me and said a semi-pro fighter responded. I was right and you were wrong...on that topic. I guess that means I am one up on you.

Mysteriouspower +1
KC Elbows 0

[Yum Cha]

Dahm! Does Canada outlaw Ginsing?? Or is it just the tax?

Some other long term skills might include:
targeting?
sensitivity?
ringcraft?
breathing?

And my old favorite, strategy?

And it all combines into an ad-lib empty minded ability, as opposed to a pre-configured response?

In Pak Mei, the way we issue force hyperextends the tendons, they build up and get stronger over time. This opens some doors as you learn to use it. I rate that pretty highly in the world of TCMA.

A lot of secrets are just as easily called tricks. Older you get, more tricks you have. Simple, eh? Non-denomenational.

Fighting is a young man's game. Teaching is an old blokes option, teaching has a whole host of skills too, including the aforementioned "optimisation." Can we call that a 'secret' or long term skill too?

Theoretically, this long term benefit may apply to all types of combat sports. However, in practical terms, it usually doesn't to anywhere near the same extent as TMA. That's the importance of the 'love of the art' as opposed 'need to fight' angle?

Skill and ageing is a natural process, the teacher is always better than the student to start, but there comes a point where the student will become better than the teacher, if he is lucky.

That's just the human condition.

[Yum Cha]

Sanjuro and Luk Hop, thanks for the SPM vids.

I can certainly see more similarity to Pak Mei in your examples than in Sifu Cama's video.

I understand exactly what you mean about 'power' Sanjuro, because the same principles apply in my style.

However (there's always a but), I still appreciate what Sifu Cama is doing, and here's why.

SPM has that dynamic tension thing going on that they use to generate faat ging. Train it one way to have the skill surface for cultivation.

It appears to me, he is simply working that particular energy in isolation, be it the tension or the faat ging, its his demonstration of his level of evolution. I assume that is a recognised exercise from the system, not an ad lib? It wouldn't make much difference.

So, instead of being a 'pure fighting' technique, it is a pure skill, and then, given that skill, its up to the system and your innovation to learn how to apply it, blah, blah, blah....

Pulling skills out of techniques and indulging in training the skill is something high level TCMA are known for.

So, as a non-student of SPM, please forgive my insolence... :D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll throw the gud stuff over the fence, flash my handy dandy US Passport CARD, tap dance passed the Mounties, sidle along the fence for my contraBAND, then sashay by casa de Ronin with some flowerz fo Mizus Ronin an t der gud stuff fo der Master;):D:rolleyes:

Silver tonged devil !

[taai gihk yahn]

Silver tonged devil !

There seems to be a lot of that going around lately...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro and Luk Hop, thanks for the SPM vids.

I can certainly see more similarity to Pak Mei in your examples than in Sifu Cama's video.

I understand exactly what you mean about 'power' Sanjuro, because the same principles apply in my style.

However (there's always a but), I still appreciate what Sifu Cama is doing, and here's why.

SPM has that dynamic tension thing going on that they use to generate faat ging. Train it one way to have the skill surface for cultivation.

It appears to me, he is simply working that particular energy in isolation, be it the tension or the faat ging, its his demonstration of his level of evolution. I assume that is a recognised exercise from the system, not an ad lib? It wouldn't make much difference.

So, instead of being a 'pure fighting' technique, it is a pure skill, and then, given that skill, its up to the system and your innovation to learn how to apply it, blah, blah, blah....

Pulling skills out of techniques and indulging in training the skill is something high level TCMA are known for.

So, as a non-student of SPM, please forgive my insolence... :D:D

Perhaps, for me and again this is in MY view, I don't like forms that are flicky and gay.
:p
I have never meet James but have heard mostly good things about the man and his SPM, but the clips I have seen has always been with that "flickety-flick" hand stuff and I just don't like it.

[PlumDragon]

Wow, Im having a difficult time keeping up with you guys posts lol! Please bear with me...


Good posts. On this point, and here's the rub: given that whoever is being trained is a normal human, it will not take longer to learn A than B, where they are not totally dissimilar in complexity. So the basic punches and kicks from system to system, not too different, same amount of time to ingrain them. So, given that we all agree that the systems don''t approach punching, kicking, throws, and locks in too dissimilar a fashion, if there is a difference in the time it takes to get proficiency, it has nothing to do with those moves, which comprise the styles, but in how they are trained.Thanks KC!

Unfortuantely, I definitely disagree that even basic punches and kicks are approached in a similar way from system to system. Two skill sets of similar complexity and size, can be learned at the same rate, of course...when in the same *context*. The fundamental issue I have is that in many arts, this skill set is taught slowly as a solo drill and performed often times slowly with partners and such for a very long time (months to years, depending on the system). Once its "internalized", then the speed goes up and things get real sloppy. At this point, the teacher say, "Now you have to learn it in this new context". Effectively, all the initial solo drilling is a waste; its sub-optimal. If your *goal* is to do movements like this for fun, then its optimal. But for the person interested in the martial part of martial arts, they have effectively doubled or tripled the time necessary to train simple basic punches and kicks.

Training should include pressure from day 1. I dont mean resisitance, Im not talking about MMA's regurgitation-of-the-day, a "resisting opponent". Im talking about pressure, about intensity, putting the training in context immediately to optimally suit the goal at hand.


So, when you get a guy who does five years of kung fu, leaves it because the methodology doesn't allow the practitioners to approach the style, and goes to something with a more useful methodology(training methodology, which is not related to style as much as culture and history), that person gains a capacity to judge the new style based on effectiveness, but, unless they do the same with the previous style, they do not have that capacity in any real sense. They do have a Fair gripe with the training environment, but the style has never gotten a proper introduction to them.Sure, I agree with that. Logically, your thoughts are well put together (probably the best Ive seen on this forum) and I have no argument. The only cavveat I would mention is this: The assumption above is that this actually happens to all the people that switch styles after 5 years.

The fact is, I dont care what the name of the system is. I dont care who made it, how old it is, or what type of special moves or "techniques" it claims to have. I care about a solid training method that produces results. And if most of the traditional martial artists (Im not taking sides with the MMA guys, they spend time on sub-optimal non-pressurized drills also) out there used *their* system with a more sound training method, they would explode forward in their evolution as martial artists. But the fact of the matter is, they are still too tied up with treating forms as some kind of secret and making their students spend class time performing footwork drills without even a partner in front of them.

I dont think anyone needs to empty their cup at all. I think they need to hang on to their chosen methods of combat. I just think they need to train them in a different way...

I know thats a bit of a ramble, sorry about that =)


What kung fu needs, and many are doing the reforms necessary to get, is people training kung fu like fighters, whatever they wish to do with it from there. What kung fu does not need is people who previously never trained it with aliveness making proclomations about it's usefulness, either positive or negative, based on their lack of proper, meaning relevant and alive, training.Again, I am in agreement with you. To reiterate, while I do have some problems with the body method of some systems, ultimately my biggest concern always comes back to training method. Time is short for most of us, and I want to make the most out of every second I get to train. Are you making the most of your time?


I for one do not consider it to require endless training under a teacher to gain competence in kung fu.You get good and what you work on. If you work on stepping drills and pre-choreographed 2-man drills with low intensity, then this is what you will get good at. If you work your reaction under pressure and intensity, then you will build skill in this context.


You can't compare results in ingraining styles between two completely different training approaches and rule out the training methodology as the cause in order to blame the style instead.As I mentioned before, I dont really care about this whole blame-game. I dont really mean to blame a style, or a person. All I care about is optimal training. Fact is, the human brain interacts in a very very complex way with methods and social dynamics and this and that and the other. I certainly dont expect anyone of us here to understand the nuances of exactly why one system produces results better than another. However, I do expect us to observe and identify that this does indeed take place and draw some conclusions at a high level as to why...




Some other long term skills might include:
targeting? sensitivity? ringcraft? breathing?I would contend that training targeting, sensitivty, and breathing can go very quickly if they are done in context. Sure, the finer points take time, but a good sound level of these an be done quickly. I have no idea what ringcraft is...



And it all combines into an ad-lib empty minded ability, as opposed to a pre-configured response?This is the sub-optimal Im talking about. It can be an empty-minded thing almost entirely right off the bat. Working for years on pre-configured responses before feeling like its "empty minded" is not necessary.



In Pak Mei, the way we issue force hyperextends the tendons, they build up and get stronger over time. This opens some doors as you learn to use it. I rate that pretty highly in the world of TCMA.Thats a good one...but again, this isnt really a skill so much as its a conditioning that is limited by the bodys ability to build these parts of the body.



Teaching has a whole host of skills too, including the aforementioned "optimisation." Can we call that a 'secret' or long term skill too?Thats a good one, but it doesnt apply to martial arts only. Its across the board, in every facet and every activity in the world.


Theoretically, this long term benefit may apply to all types of combat sports. However, in practical terms, it usually doesn't to anywhere near the same extent as TMA. That's the importance of the 'love of the art' as opposed 'need to fight' angle?Once again, I think it all comes down to objective. I see a lot of fighters get old and they relax a bit, come out of the ring and work on their finesse. They stay in shape, keep moving and teaching, and live well into old age with little to no health problems and a vital energetic spring in their step.

I used to train at a Straight Blast Gym, while taking a break from CMA. My "coach" would talk to me and try to make me sympathize with his points of view. I remember telling him that the CMA I study wasnt just about fighting, it was about health and longevity. So he asked me, "So, you dont feel healthy and alive after training here at the gym?". I started to think about it and realized that, despite an injury here and there, my overall health was fantastic as long as I was training anything and using my body. Sure, had I entered the cage I would have gotten bashed up a bit and this isnt healthy, but this doesnt mean that these types of arts dont offer an element of health and longevity in them. Fighting in the ring/cage, no thats not something that lasts forever. But training in the art intrinsically provides long-term benefits, and to come back to what was actually said, these skills dont go away as you lose muscle mass into older age, etc. Theres nothing profoundly different about the way the body is used in CMA that allows the skills to stick around longer...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to train at a Straight Blast Gym, while taking a break from CMA. My "coach" would talk to me and try to make me sympathize with his points of view. I remember telling him that the CMA I study wasnt just about fighting, it was about health and longevity. So he asked me, "So, you dont feel healthy and alive after training here at the gym?". I started to think about it and realized that, despite an injury here and there, my overall health hadnt change. Sure, had I entered the cage I would have gotten bashed up a bit and this isnt healthy, but this doesnt mean that these types of arts dont offer an element of health and longevity in them. Fighting in the ring/cage, no thats not something that lasts forever. But training in the art intrinsically provides long-term benefits, and to come back to what was actually said, these skills dont go away as you lose muscle mass into older age, etc. Theres nothing profoundly different about the way the body is used in CMA that allows the skills to stick around longer...

You make a valid point and let's focus on that for a bit.
Sport combat systems have on recently been "aimed' towards the every day person and not the fighter and as such, there has been some changes, but typically, what gives a fighter the edge of a layman is his ability to deliever pain AND absorb pain and if you look at the typical methods used in MT, for example, you will see that many of them are not condusive to longevity ( not to say that there aren't any old time MT fighters that are healthy).
TCMA on the other hand, tend to take do BOTH the short term training ( taking shots to the gut to develop the ability to absorbe them) and the long term ( IB work that develops the "inside" of the body).

[bawang]

u keep kung fu secrets if u dont like someone but still teach them for the monies
its the gay

[PlumDragon]

You make a valid point and let's focus on that for a bit.
Sport combat systems have on recently been "aimed' towards the every day person and not the fighter and as such, there has been some changes, but typically, what gives a fighter the edge of a layman is his ability to deliever pain AND absorb pain and if you look at the typical methods used in MT, for example, you will see that many of them are not condusive to longevity ( not to say that there aren't any old time MT fighters that are healthy).
TCMA on the other hand, tend to take do BOTH the short term training ( taking shots to the gut to develop the ability to absorbe them) and the long term ( IB work that develops the "inside" of the body).
Just to make sure we are on the same page, originally, the statement was:
- Arts not based in Kung Fu will provide skills faster but these skills detioriate over time.

Hopefully we dont have any more argument anymore that this is ridiculous and not true.


Having commented on Yum Chas post, the discussion now seems to be:
- Arts not based in Kung Fu dont promote helath and longevity as much.

I would say that arts like MT promote health and longevity insofar as the actual physical work. What I think youre getting at is that they damage eachother through hard contact, and this itself is not a healthy longevity-promoting aspect. And of course, there lies a dicotomy between combat and health in reference to dealing with injury. But this is true with Kung Fu as well. If a Kung Fu person wanted to actually fight, he would be subject to the same issues with injury. So, I think we can agree that serious cage fighting and the preparation for such will produce more injury, regardless of art.

One thing I dont like is that those big boxing gloves can really ring you. I tend to think that too many hard strikes from a 16 oz pair of gloves could be detrimental to brain function...

[sanjuro_ronin]

My point was that TCMA, typically, address the long term MA application more than the typical Sport combat systems.
Different ways to "take abuse" that work in the log term, different wasy to produce power that work when the speed and mass aren't there as much.
But of course these methods work WITH the typical ones used in sport systems not against or instead off.

[KC Elbows]

Plum Dragon,

No problem(on the difficulty of responding to all of us), this should help, as your last post and mine are in total agreement, which should save you some time.




Unfortuantely, I definitely disagree that even basic punches and kicks are approached in a similar way from system to system. Two skill sets of similar complexity and size, can be learned at the same rate, of course...when in the same *context*. The fundamental issue I have is that in many arts, this skill set is taught slowly as a solo drill and performed often times slowly with partners and such for a very long time (months to years, depending on the system). Once its "internalized", then the speed goes up and things get real sloppy. At this point, the teacher say, "Now you have to learn it in this new context". Effectively, all the initial solo drilling is a waste; its sub-optimal. If your *goal* is to do movements like this for fun, then its optimal. But for the person interested in the martial part of martial arts, they have effectively doubled or tripled the time necessary to train simple basic punches and kicks.

Correct, and this has been what I was getting at: what you are talking about is the training methodology. The strikes, save for an odd chop or specialized strike here and there, are close enough to the same for our purposes. Internalizing something designed for pressure, using your term, requires pressure, or you're internalizing something else. I am not for saving the pressure for year ten.


Training should include pressure from day 1. I dont mean resisitance, Im not talking about MMA's regurgitation-of-the-day, a "resisting opponent". Im talking about pressure, about intensity, putting the training in context immediately to optimally suit the goal at hand.

I really wish you would disagree with me more. I'm not sure you understand the internet.:D


Sure, I agree with that. Logically, your thoughts are well put together (probably the best Ive seen on this forum) and I have no argument. The only cavveat I would mention is this: The assumption above is that this actually happens to all the people that switch styles after 5 years.

The fact is, I dont care what the name of the system is. I dont care who made it, how old it is, or what type of special moves or "techniques" it claims to have. I care about a solid training method that produces results. And if most of the traditional martial artists (Im not taking sides with the MMA guys, they spend time on sub-optimal non-pressurized drills also) out there used *their* system with a more sound training method, they would explode forward in their evolution as martial artists.

I'm gonna call for you to be banned if your ideas mesh with mine once more! You were warned.


But the fact of the matter is, they are still too tied up with treating forms as some kind of secret and making their students spend class time performing footwork drills without even a partner in front of them.

Okay. "They" do so. I don't. Neither do a number of others in the modern era. I keep a general principal of allowing others their choices and seeking to be a good example more than a herald. That's all.


I dont think anyone needs to empty their cup at all. I think they need to hang on to their chosen methods of combat. I just think they need to train them in a different way...

Unless they are dishonest about what they are doing and it affects others, it is not my place to tell them to do anything.


I know thats a bit of a ramble, sorry about that =)

Rambling is a forum requirement.


Again, I am in agreement with you. To reiterate, while I do have some problems with the body method of some systems, ultimately my biggest concern always comes back to training method. Time is short for most of us, and I want to make the most out of every second I get to train. Are you making the most of your time?

No, I can't quit the forum. Can anyone help me?:D


You get good and what you work on. If you work on stepping drills and pre-choreographed 2-man drills with low intensity, then this is what you will get good at. If you work your reaction under pressure and intensity, then you will build skill in this context.

That's it. Your agreement will be duly noted with the mods.


As I mentioned before, I dont really care about this whole blame-game. I dont really mean to blame a style, or a person. All I care about is optimal training. Fact is, the human brain interacts in a very very complex way with methods and social dynamics and this and that and the other. I certainly dont expect anyone of us here to understand the nuances of exactly why one system produces results better than another. However, I do expect us to observe and identify that this does indeed take place and draw some conclusions at a high level as to why...

When you say "us", you are stuck asking if you have reasonable expectation that others should behave as you want them to, especially in the case of strangers. I say no.

That said, I try to do the same as you.

[KC Elbows]

I need to inject a little humor to all this serious posting. This is a small matter but I need to bring it up.

KC Elbows, no matter how much you disagree with me or try to demonize me everything we argue about is philosophical. None of us is right or wrong...until now. Frost confirmed that nobody respnded to his post from a couple of pages ago even though you vehemenently disagreed with me and said a semi-pro fighter responded. I was right and you were wrong...on that topic. I guess that means I am one up on you.

Mysteriouspower +1
KC Elbows 0

In fairness, you should give yourself a second point for getting me to respond to your troll.

That said, it's too bad you didn't opt to do this with your regular handle. I ran into one of the instructors, I think from your mma school, but I lost contaxt with him. A friend was looking to train with him, I figured you'd have the contact info.

If you are merely copying the troll style of who I'm talking about, disregard the previous paragraph.:)

[Yao Sing]

Training should include pressure from day 1. I dont mean resisitance, Im not talking about MMA's regurgitation-of-the-day, a "resisting opponent". Im talking about pressure, about intensity, putting the training in context immediately to optimally suit the goal at hand.

My personal opinion is the MA newbs, when pressured, will react with whatever their reflex dictates. That could be anything from an attemtped block to just a duck-and-cover. What the training is supposed to do is replace whatever that reflexive action is with the response you're training.

So as long as the attack is coming at you full force you will reflexively react with something else instead of the preferred action. Slowing the training down to just below the reflex allows you to control the response and once you get used to it then you can speed it up and still react with the 'correct' response.

Considering that most schools are dealing with newbs with little to no fighting skills or experience you can see why the soft/slow approach is needed.


Sport combat systems have on recently been "aimed' towards the every day person and not the fighter and as such, there has been some changes, .......

And this is my point above. When you're training a bunch of physically hard core guys (the type initially attracted to MMA gyms) it's easier, and safer, to throw them into the deep water. Most CMA schools are dealing with peeps that got picked on or beat up as a kid so they want to learn MA to physically be on par with the guys that picked on them.


One thing I dont like is that those big boxing gloves can really ring you. I tend to think that too many hard strikes from a 16 oz pair of gloves could be detrimental to brain function...

Now this touches on my opinion of why grappling coaches more commonely roll with their students and why CMA teachers don't 'touch hands' as much.

You can grapple full out day after day with minimal injury. Boxing takes it's toll so nobody wants to get hit in the head, or knocked out, day after day. Now look at MA moves, fast breaks & soft target strikes, and you'll see that nobody wants to even attempt practicing them full out let alone on a regular basis with students.

So which would you rather do, roll using progressive compliance submissions or spar using fast breaks and soft targets (eyes, pressure points, groin, back of head, etc.)?

*When I say fast breaks I mean breaks that require a fast movement or strike to suceed. As opposed to progressive submissions which use increasing tension on a joint while isolating the body (much safer to train allowing one to submit).

[KC Elbows]

You can grapple full out day after day with minimal injury. Boxing takes it's toll so nobody wants to get hit in the head, or knocked out, day after day. Now look at MA moves, fast breaks & soft target strikes, and you'll see that nobody wants to even attempt practicing them full out let alone on a regular basis with students.

In fairness, sparring in boxing is not, when learning, done full tilt. Joe Frazier has a book, box like the pros or something like that, and he says several times that you can tell a bad gym by people at the beginning and intermediate levels coming out of sparring often hurt. He says a bunch of times that the winner of sparring is the one who uses it to learn, not the 'victor' of a session. If you do the most hits, but learn nothing, you fail.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I trained two boxing gyms here and one in Portugal and none of them sparred full contact all the time, hard contact sure but even at times it was just "hard enough" to kep things honest.
Sure the better guys went a little harder but the degree of contact should always be up to BOTH trainees.

[PlumDragon]

KC, that certainly was much easier. I think this has been a good discussion...Additionally, Iv enjoyed your humor. Ill have to go search through your post history some time... ;)



My personal opinion is the MA newbs, when pressured, will react with whatever their reflex dictates. That could be anything from an attemtped block to just a duck-and-cover. What the training is supposed to do is replace whatever that reflexive action is with the response you're training.While I dont consider myself a very good teacher yet, I can override those "reflexes" quite literally in hours (and even minutes with someone who catches on quickly) of training a student new to MA.



So as long as the attack is coming at you full force you will reflexively react with something else instead of the preferred action. Slowing the training down to just below the reflex allows you to control the response and once you get used to it then you can speed it up and still react with the 'correct' response.There are several breakdowns here:
- Nobody said anything about full-force. The idea is not to throw a student in and allow them to attempt to deal with full-force strikes and I dont know why everyone always just assumes things are either non-force or full force. There is an in-between.

Now, fact is, each person can deal with a given amount of pressure; above which, they begin to crash, stop responding, make mistakes, etc etc. If you train a student below this threshold, then you are not training the response; there may be a 1% or less crossover because here, you are thinking on a very conscious level and not working in a reactionary framework. In order to engrain a student with the proper response to a given situation, you must allow the student to experience things at a level that they cannot deal with it, so that they are forced to overcome. Once they can deal with it (which really happens quite quickly), then you can add small increments of intensity to the situation and so on and so forth.

This is the stuff that skill is made of.



Considering that most schools are dealing with newbs with little to no fighting skills or experience you can see why the soft/slow approach is needed.Actually, no I cant. Intensity and pressure do not mean that a student has to get hurt. Teachers need to exercise control, and a good deal of awareness so as to not hurt their students.

The justification above, in my mind, reads something like: "We know were not training optimally, but everyone here is new, so give us a break!"



And this is my point above. When you're training a bunch of physically hard core guys (the type initially attracted to MMA gyms) it's easier, and safer, to throw them into the deep water. Most CMA schools are dealing with peeps that got picked on or beat up as a kid so they want to learn MA to physically be on par with the guys that picked on them.They wont ever be on par with those bullies by doing slow patterned drills with a partner doing the same. meanwhile the bullies are training smarter and get better at a faster rate.



Now this touches on my opinion of why grappling coaches more commonely roll with their students and why CMA teachers don't 'touch hands' as much.

So which would you rather do, roll using progressive compliance submissions or spar using fast breaks and soft targets (eyes, pressure points, groin, back of head, etc.)?As I said above, these things need not be done with injury. You can add pressure and present your student with a threat just above their level of ability in a safe and controlled manner. You dont have to kill them...You can train optimally and walk away with no damage at all.

[Lokhopkuen]

Silver tonged devil !

You've been talking to my wife again, she always telling tales......

[MysteriousPower]

You've been talking to my wife again, she always telling tales......

That is from the movie Brave Heart. The timing was perfect. I love it!

[SanHeChuan]

You've been talking to my wife again, she always telling tales......

Your wife has been telling stories about me again? :p

[MysteriousPower]

In fairness, you should give yourself a second point for getting me to respond to your troll.

That said, it's too bad you didn't opt to do this with your regular handle. I ran into one of the instructors, I think from your mma school, but I lost contaxt with him. A friend was looking to train with him, I figured you'd have the contact info.

If you are merely copying the troll style of who I'm talking about, disregard the previous paragraph.:)

Now I understand why you have been up my a$$ this whole thread. Originally I thought you just liked the view. You think I am some mma guy's double? You are most definitely wrong and because of that I accept your apology.

I am actually a reformed tcm guy who had been doing forms, slow static technique drills, and learning the "secrets.". I have dabbled in mma but am reluctant to go full tilt into it because I feel that rolling around with some sweaty dude is gay and makes foe the transfer of skin infections easier. Call me paranoid.

I meant every word about what I said about secrets in this thread and it was not coming from some macho mma view but from a frustrated tcma view.

I have a question.. If people feel their praying mantis is so good than why do they only show videos of themselves doing forms and contrived drills with their own classmates. How come there is never any free fighting with outsiders on video? No one needs to answer because I have heard the answer(excuse) from my teacher. It goes something like this, "We are not insecure. We do not need to show our secrets to the outside. There is no reason to make them stronger. I do not want to have a dik measuring contest.". The truth is that a free fighting video would show how sloppy sparring actually gets and might make the super sifu look stupid. No offense but I believe that is what it comes down to.

I stated in another thread that I am only mediocre but younger students think I have godlike powers. I have never fooled myself into thinking I can win a ufc match with the training regimen I have had over the years. Many non-fighting tcma people believe deep down that when the sh!t hits the fan they will light up the room and vibrate their way to victory or they believe that they would win an mma match if "the money was better.". I am not delusional in the least. If I was taken to the ground I would be submitted. It happened to me actually and I could not stop it. Let me clarify that last sentence. My mma friend submitted me but we were not rolling on the ground. I just wanted to see if I could withstand a ground submission and I could not. The fact that some teachers have this belief about themselves is not based on the realit of their past fighting experience and instead based on their ability to outspeed their students in floppy hand drills.

When I do all the easy shorthand drills I sometimes fall into the trap of feeling that I am really skilled but reality hit me one day when I was sparring with a judo man. I never felt more helpless than when he grabbed me and took me down to the ground. It was both a shocking and awake ing experience. I have since dripped much of the form training and opted for other training modalities that involve more sparring.

If this does not satisfy you, KC, than nothing will.


One of the clips poster by Sam was of interest. The mantis guy was chi saing againt a big wing chun guy. Ge was clearly losing and decided to strike him with a pheonix fist in the chest temporarily stopping the match. Two things were interesting: 1. No on left comments on how the mantis guy cheated. 2. Someone left a comment saying it was an "internal" strike. Lol. If I tranfer my punch force through a sharper target of course it will hurt more and cause more damage.

[TenTigers]

look, there's a really simple answer to this:
1. You need to get the idea out of your head that just because you had a bad tcma experience, that every school is exactly the same as yours. period.

Although there has been this trend for the past few generations, it is going the other way, and more and more Sifus are training their students the good old fashioned (traditional) way-hitting, conditioning, pressure testing, and sparring.
You simply need to find the right school.
It's like Tai-Chi. How many even want to learn fighting applications, let alone fighting? Very, very few. So what has happened? Tai-Chi evolved into strictly a health art, with only a few teachers teaching fighting.
You simply need to shop around more.


2. the answer is in the numbers. A small, "closed" style will have less people in the "target market" for MMA competition-18-25 yr-olds,full of testosterone, willing to bash it up. Most of these will not even be drawn to TCMA.
Bigger schools, more people, bigger pool to draw from.
Tiger Schullman has had a handfull of guys win in MMA events, Pride, etc.
They also have 40 schools. Times that by 100 students (most have higher enrolments) and you have 4,000 students to draw from. Surely you can find a handfull of guys who want to train at that level.
do the math.

[MysteriousPower]

look, there's a really simple answer to this:
1. You need to get the idea out of your head that just because you had a bad tcma experience, that every school is exactly the same as yours. period.

Although there has been this trend for the past few generations, it is going the other way, and more and more Sifus are training their students the good old fashioned (traditional) way-hitting, conditioning, pressure testing, and sparring.
You simply need to find the right school.
It's like Tai-Chi. How many even want to learn fighting applications, let alone fighting? Very, very few. So what has happened? Tai-Chi evolved into strictly a health art, with only a few teachers teaching fighting.
You simply need to shop around more.


2. the answer is in the numbers. A small, "closed" style will have less people in the "target market" for MMA competition-18-25 yr-olds,full of testosterone, willing to bash it up. Most of these will not even be drawn to TCMA.
Bigger schools, more people, bigger pool to draw from.
Tiger Schullman has had a handfull of guys win in MMA events, Pride, etc.
They also have 40 schools. Times that by 100 students (most have higher enrolments) and you have 4,000 students to draw from. Surely you can find a handfull of guys who want to train at that level.
do the math.

You claim that I am overgeneralizing but supply no proof of your claim that tcma schools are "turning the corner.". Where is your proof of this? You are overgeneralizing.

[MysteriousPower]

There are many examples on YouTube asserting my claim. Just look up Maoshan and black Taoist. Please point to some clips supporting your argument.

[SavvySavage]

A very hot woman is sitting across from me on the train right now. I get to stare at her for the next 3 hours. I'd post a pic of her but the act of me taking a pic of her makes me feel like a dirty perv.

[TenTigers]

A very hot woman is sitting across from me on the train right now. I get to stare at her for the next 3 hours. I'd post a pic of her but the act of me taking a pic of her makes me feel like a dirty perv.

that's your contribution to the thread?:D:p

[SavvySavage]

I can't tell my girlfriend about it so I figured I'd tell you guys. If I'd posted her pick you wouldn't be complaining.

From what I've been reading it sounds like only video will convince mystery. Happy now?

[TenTigers]

ok, I can't post links-
check out that Bak Mei/Dragon guy from the west coast-the big guy with all the tats.
check out Alan Lee's NYC Wing Chun. Heck, stop by there and take a class.
I used to train there. One of your former classmates went there once, and walked out crying.
Check out lkfmdc's NY Sanda-he's a Lama Sifu who trains full-contact fighters
go to the Wing Chun forum here and you will find more guys training than you can shake a stick at.
Lei Siu Hung trains full-contact fighters
There are some Yee's Hung-Ga schools in NYC that train Sanda fighters as well.
Lei Tai Liang trains full contact fighters
William Chen has always trained full contact fighters
do a youtube search for Buk Sing Gwoon
BTW-Cama-Sifu has a few guys in his stable as well
I also have a few who I'm grooming for full-contact, and one of my guys took first place in Thailand's first MMA event-first round TKO
he runs the Muay Thai class in my school, and helps coach my guys' bag and conditioning stuff. (he's in Thailand right now)
these are just off the top of my head...

[TenTigers]

From what I've been reading it sounds like only video will convince mystery. Happy now?
yeah, I got it. I was just ribbing you.

[Yum Cha]

Hi Plum,
Please bear with me, I make no contention that ONLY TCMA provides longevity exercise, only that it is a particularly good option, intellectually stimulating and that it allows a continuum of training from youth to old age.

I will agree that people attribute 'magical' fantasies to certain skills, and that many skilled individuals work it, to our shame.

Or that training diligently in MMA will not create a good fighter quickly, and a great fighter over time given the right individual.

Two of your comments below I find to be to the point:




.....I would contend that training targeting, sensitivty, and breathing can go very quickly if they are done in context. Sure, the finer points take time, but a good sound level of these an be done quickly. I have no idea what ringcraft is...


You admit that the finer points take time. Thus that over time you improve. Do you think there is an end to that improvement? With better targeting you need less strength, when you need less strength, you can increase your speed.... From little things, big things come.

Ringcraft is the skill of facing a committed opponent (as in the ring) and understanding the issues of engagement, evasion, heart, pain, intimidation, etc. All the skills other than your actual fighting techniques, er, ah, more or less.... Experience you can only get one way, looking into the eyes of someone with intent.



....This is the sub-optimal Im talking about. It can be an empty-minded thing almost entirely right off the bat. Working for years on pre-configured responses before feeling like its "empty minded" is not necessary.


This is comment seems to go against conventional wisdom. I would call it empty-headed fighting versus empty mind fighting, if you don't mind my sarcasm. You train to put skills into your portfolio. Regardless of your pursuit. As you practice, you develop these skills, eventually you draw on them. Eventually you draw on them mindlessly. I.e. driving a car.

Perhaps you can clarify how one can simply fight 'empty minded' from the start and compete against a fully trained fighter who has the same ability, other things being equal. Trained in anything, mind you, not just TCMA. Its the principle.

To me the discussion is not about TCMA as much as the high level skills one develops from extended training, in anything, with the caveat that TCMA is one of the best opportunities for life long training going.

The resulting conclusion is that with long term pursuit, you do develop high level skills that are unique, by the fact that you have invested time into them, and they continue to develop with time and training. Your arbitrary evaluation of 'optimisation' is rather mono dimensional to my mind.

We live in a society where short term satisfaction and short term gain are the yardsticks by which many measure value. I'm hardly surprised at the pervasiveness of this opinion, its a cultural thing.

[David Jamieson]

some people just dont deserve to be shown anything they come across as such jerks.

I think maybe this is what happened? Someone was being a beligerent self minded person and anotehr person saw that as a character flaw and withheld anything of specialness because of a deserving it issue.

Or it could have also been racism. lol

anyway, op dude, mysterion there. You need to consider all the sides. Maybe you were being a ******* and no one wanted to give you anything because of it? So, you turn around and project your own ******* ways onto thsoe who are denying you something that you don't respect and don't want anyway.

Could be that you are one of those "what's the point" people. there's lots of them. Perfectly capable of being able to learn and practice, but so underdeveloped from a social standpoint that tehy are not worth teaching higher level knowledge or skills too.

as for fighting, anyone can figfht. there's no secrets there.

[Frost]

We live in a society where short term satisfaction and short term gain are the yardsticks by which many measure value. I'm hardly surprised at the pervasiveness of this opinion, its a cultural thing.

or perhaps people have become wise and are no longer fooled by the "it takes 10 years to become good at what we do but then no man can touch you" arguement.

either way it really depends on what you are training for, if its self defence then becoming good in a small amount of time is a good thing, if you are in it for the beauty of the art then you may want to spend years and years perfecting itsall good.

As for TCMA being one of the best chances for life long training going i still argue this is a big maybe (take tai chi out of the equation and the number of middle aged people practising TCMA goes down quite a bit). And likewise the number practising that are still able to actually hold their own in a fight with younger fights is even less.

[TenTigers]

when I first took up guitar, in a few months I could hammer out a decent blues progression, Jumpin Jack Flash and Johnny B. Goode.
A few years later, I could do a simple blues lick, some bends, and trills.
Now, after many years, I can play different types of music. I can fingerpick, I can play slide, from Heavy Metal to Blues. I can improvise and it is a free-flowing expression. I can put feeling into a solo. I can coax sublties from harmonics, overtones, cries and moans, soft as a baby's caress, or biting and hard. This comes from the hands, not the instrument.

I guess if all you want to play is Green Day or the Ramones, learn your three chords and rock out.

Most teenagers aren't into the Blues. To ask a teen to come to a Blues Jam and sit through an evening of song after song of the same 12 bar blues and variations of such is torture.

don't even mention jazz...

[TenTigers]

or perhaps people have become wise and are no longer fooled by the "it takes 10 years to become good at what we do but then no man can touch you" arguement.
.

My teacher puts it this way;
"Will training in my style make you unstoppable? No.
Will it make you better than anyone else? No.
What I have is a specific set of skills.
Whether you choose to learn it or not is up to you."

I chose to learn it.

[PlumDragon]

I dont have the time tokeep replying to everything, Im probably going to become more scarce in this thread. If anyone wants to continue the conversation with me, just ping me and Ill see what I can do...




Please bear with me, I make no contention that ONLY TCMA provides longevity exercise, only that it is a particularly good option, intellectually stimulating and that it allows a continuum of training from youth to old age.Certainly happy to bear with ya and be civil!

As for TCMA being a great option for stimulation mentally and physically into old age, etc etc...Perhaps the real issue here as that many of the things in TCMA arent martial art at all but rather come from "health" modalities. ie, people consider qigong as "martial art", but really is just Chinese health practice...TCMA isnt just a martil art, its a whole cultural lifestyle...

I would like to stress again that I love TCMA. I love the breadthand depth and think there are good philosophies and concepts and ideas and such. I think the secrecy is totally lame, but I just want ppl reading to know that Im not against TCMA here--Ive spent the better part of my life studying under TCMA teachers, both good and bad, and its part of who I am.



You admit that the finer points take time. Thus that over time you improve. Do you think there is an end to that improvement? With better targeting you need less strength, when you need less strength, you can increase your speed.... From little things, big things come.I definitely admit that the finer points of ANY activity take time. Thats my primary argument in saying that growth doesnt stop in other systems; ie, the adage of "TCMA builds skill down the road that last into old age and other system dont" is totally ridicoulous.



Perhaps you can clarify how one can simply fight 'empty minded' from the start and compete against a fully trained fighter who has the same ability, other things being equal. Trained in anything, mind you, not just TCMA. Its the principle.Attacking is a conscious thing--that is, you must put conscious thought into where you are going to go next. Thats not to say that it cant be done with I guess, an empty-mind, but just that attacking requires conscious brain processing despite the feel of nto really thinking about it.

Defending, on the other hand, is a reaction--it takes place on an unconscious neural framework. If you have time to think about what or how you are defending something, about how you are reacting, then the attack is coming at you too slowly to train the response in context. You begin to anticipate and consider the options.

In order to train from day 1 with what you call empty-mind requires a teacher who can lead you through the motions *under pressure* at a level of intensity just slightly beyond the students reach--having a teacher that can do this is most important, you wouldnt expect another student to invoke this type of improvement.

In the beginning (read: the first 10-20 minutes) a new student will get tripped up easily and they will often make the wrong decisions or anticipate an incoming attack and feel uncomfortable. But very quickly, the pace will ramp up and the student will find that they no longer need to think about their defense and counterattack, it simply happens; Ive yet to see this fail to take hold within the first hour of training. It seems unconventional and extraordinary ONLY because so few people really train like this. Fact of the matter is, its the most logical progression for building skill under pressure--As a side point, I always enthusiastically invite anyone interested to spend an hour or 2 training inthis type ofmethod and make up your own mind.

Have you ever heard of Rosetta Stone? Im using it right now to learn Tagalog. Wonderful language program that works exceedingly well. Why? IMMERSION. They take you and throw you in the deepest water you can handle; they do NOT throw you in the deep end, they just throw you in deep enough so that you struggle a little bit and then overcome the challenge. Its full immersion; its the most pressure you can handle and still succeed quickly. ANd its the most efficient for the human brain to grow and adapt...And its the closest way I can describe what Im talking about without actually spending an hour or 2 introducing you to the method...



To me the discussion is not about TCMA as much as the high level skills one develops from extended training, in anything, with the caveat that TCMA is one of the best opportunities for life long training going.Heres my statement from above: You get good at what you spend your time on. TCMA is no different, over the years you get exceedingly get at exactly what you train on. People always assume there s some large crossover from their choreographed defense drills to fighting. Fact is, the more time you spend on an exact task, the more presicely perfect you get at doing that one exact thing.

TCMA, MMA, fishing, or handwriting, makes no difference. If your training is qigong routines, and hitting the heavy bag, well then after 20 years, you will be excrutiatingly good at it, and cover nuances that new people an only begin to fathom...But you sure as hell wont be good at dealing with an opponent who is attempting to test your reactive capability.



The resulting conclusion is that with long term pursuit, you do develop high level skills that are unique, by the fact that you have invested time into them, and they continue to develop with time and training. Your arbitrary evaluation of 'optimisation' is rather mono dimensional to my mind.Yes, unique for sure--in the long term you will be the pinnacle of your field in whatever you study. You will either be a brutally effective fighter because you trained in the right environment, or you will be able to produce an incredibly graceful grasping the sparrows tail with one of your students because youve done it a hundred bazillion times in that context.

Im not sure what you are getting at when you say its "mono" dimensional. Is there a reason you didnt just say 1? A bit too Philosopher King for my taste I guess ;)



We live in a society where short term satisfaction and short term gain are the yardsticks by which many measure value. I'm hardly surprised at the pervasiveness of this opinion, its a cultural thing.Im actually really surprised nobody has brought this one up until now; I kept waiting for it.

Fact is, Im not talking about short term satisfaction here. Im talking about progress over time. Time can be 1 month and it can be 25 years. But when you measure your progress, and you divide it into time spent, my preference would be to make the progress possible with each and every hour. Its not about short term satisfaction, its about largest amount of long term growth. If youre not training in the best way that you can, how do you expect to pick up the huge long term gains as someone who realizes a more optimal training path...?

[Yum Cha]

or perhaps people have become wise and are no longer fooled by the "it takes 10 years to become good at what we do but then no man can touch you" arguement.

either way it really depends on what you are training for, if its self defence then becoming good in a small amount of time is a good thing, if you are in it for the beauty of the art then you may want to spend years and years perfecting itsall good.

As for TCMA being one of the best chances for life long training going i still argue this is a big maybe (take tai chi out of the equation and the number of middle aged people practising TCMA goes down quite a bit). And likewise the number practising that are still able to actually hold their own in a fight with younger fights is even less.

Hello my friend,
I can speak theoretically, or I can draw from experience.

I was a little geek that got chased home from the bus when I was 13 and I was fighting old school Tae Kwon Do Tournaments on Army Bases with GIs, and winning when I was 16. 3 years of good training and I was never running home from anything any more. Sure its just Tae Kwon Do, but I got the heart too.

Later, fighting full contact tournaments in Sydney, I drew on that TKD ringcraft more on my TCMA training, I had about 4 years around then. I was just like so many of you at that point. The Chinese stuff is groovy, but always rely on 4 kicks, 4 punches for getting the job done in a pinch.

In the 23 years since, I've certainly changed my opinion. You get little breakthroughs where stuff makes sense and your executions changes. For each, I'm sure its different, but you see it when it happens in others. Its like a giant jigsaw that just comes into place. It happened for me, and I appreciate it is a rare thing. It came to me after crossing a dessert of boredom, repetitive practice, mindless participation and just one step after the other, do it again practice. 15 years maybe? But then, my style has some good stuff at that higher level. Some styles don't. If you understand Pak Mei, you know what I mean, if not, well, good luck. My previous posts kinda cover it.

I know you're a bit of an old dog too, but I think you went at it the opposite direction, moving into combat sport later, building on a traditional background?

And yes, you are much more pointed with your answer that it depends on what you are training for.
Some people train to fight because they like to.
Some train to fight because they have to.
Some train to fight because they don't want to.
Some people are just really gay and like to hang out with fighters, but that's probably irrelevant.

I've never been one to judge either harshly. Some just can't stand up to the mental intensity of MMA training, (or Boxing, or hard core TCMAs) even if they can physically.

To train MA, the key is finding a fit. One size certainly doesn't fit all.

That being said, I feel like apologising for the entire culture when I see some of the BS that TCMA people come up with. If the kwoon doesn't feel like a black iron boxing gym, buyer beware.

[Yum Cha]

when I first took up guitar, in a few months I could hammer out a decent blues progression, Jumpin Jack Flash and Johnny B. Goode.
A few years later, I could do a simple blues lick, some bends, and trills.
Now, after many years, I can play different types of music. I can fingerpick, I can play slide, from Heavy Metal to Blues. I can improvise and it is a free-flowing expression. I can put feeling into a solo. I can coax sublties from harmonics, overtones, cries and moans, soft as a baby's caress, or biting and hard. This comes from the hands, not the instrument.

I guess if all you want to play is Green Day or the Ramones, learn your three chords and rock out.

Most teenagers aren't into the Blues. To ask a teen to come to a Blues Jam and sit through an evening of song after song of the same 12 bar blues and variations of such is torture.

don't even mention jazz...

How many records you sold, huh? Huh? My cousin got a recording contract and released a single in 5 weeks.

As the old saying goes, "if I have to explain, you wouldn't understand anyhow."

[jo]

In a world where whippy swords and dance moves are readily accepted as "martial training", where the measure of one's (supposed) skill is counted in the sheer number of forms one has collected, its perfectly reasonable to accept the notion of "secret techniques".

-jo

[jo]

What kind of music do you equate SPM with?

I am not a musician, but have pondered this thought for a long time.

SPM has so many nuances, I would like to hear your perspective.

-jo

[jo]

Hello my friend,
And yes, you are much more pointed with your answer that it depends on what you are training for.
Some people train to fight because they like to.
Some train to fight because they have to.
Some train to fight because they don't want to.
Some people are just really gay and like to hang out with fighters, but that's probably irrelevant.

Thank you.

-jo

[jo]

My teacher puts it this way;
"Will training in my style make you unstoppable? No.
Will it make you better than anyone else? No.
What I have is a specific set of skills.
Whether you choose to learn it or not is up to you."

I chose to learn it.

But can you take it and make it your own?

In your music, you don't try to Be Bo Diddley....you just take what he has given you and made it your own. :)

Don't try to be like your Sifu, or you won't learn Diddley. :cool:

Play your SPM like your guitar...from the gut....oh, excuse me, your "dan tien".

Its all the same...its all about the basics and believing in yourself.

-jo

[TenTigers]

What kind of music do you equate SPM with?

I am not a musician, but have pondered this thought for a long time.

SPM has so many nuances, I would like to hear your perspective.

-jo
Hmmm..speaking as a guitarist,
Classical guitar, as it has the melody and chording occurring at the same time.
The hands are completely independant-left hand is picking chords and melody, right hand is doing the fingering.
Steve Miller's guitar work on "Jungle Love" which had a huge influence on Eddie Van Halen-he plays the chords, and interjects pieces of melody in between.
Much the way the hands flow in and around the opponent, interrupting the rhythm.
Jimi Hendrix playing "Little Wing." Again the chording and melody happening at once, from the same player.
Alot of Jazz guitarists like Chet Atkins do this.
Again, guys like Van Halen, Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Steve Vai, because they were extrememly unorthodox in their playing. SPM is unorthodox in the way they use angles, non-linear trajectory in their strikes, and that quality of energy.

[TenTigers]

But can you take it and make it your own?

In your music, you don't try to Be Bo Diddley....you just take what he has given you and made it your own. :)

Don't try to be like your Sifu, or you won't learn Diddley. :cool:

Play your SPM like your guitar...from the gut....oh, excuse me, your "dan tien".

Its all the same...its all about the basics and believing in yourself.

-jo
I don't feel I am at the stage where it is my own.
I feel that my foundational skills need more work,
just as you start by copping riffs from other guitarists, and once you have "chops," you make it your own.
Hendrix copped alot from Albert King, but then took off and became Jimi.
Stevie Ray Vaughn copped from Lee and Hendrix, but became his own man.
All in good time.
I'm in no hurry.
I know of others who cannot or will not empty their cup, so in a sense, their SPM is definately their own!
I don't wanna be that guy, if you catch my drift...

[Lokhopkuen]

Sanjuro and Luk Hop, thanks for the SPM vids.

I can certainly see more similarity to Pak Mei in your examples than in Sifu Cama's video.

I understand exactly what you mean about 'power' Sanjuro, because the same principles apply in my style.

However (there's always a but), I still appreciate what Sifu Cama is doing, and here's why.

SPM has that dynamic tension thing going on that they use to generate faat ging. Train it one way to have the skill surface for cultivation.

It appears to me, he is simply working that particular energy in isolation, be it the tension or the faat ging, its his demonstration of his level of evolution. I assume that is a recognised exercise from the system, not an ad lib? It wouldn't make much difference.

So, instead of being a 'pure fighting' technique, it is a pure skill, and then, given that skill, its up to the system and your innovation to learn how to apply it, blah, blah, blah....

Pulling skills out of techniques and indulging in training the skill is something high level TCMA are known for.

So, as a non-student of SPM, please forgive my insolence... :D:D

Hey tough guy when you coming back to LALA? Next time gimme lead time and we'll do it right;)

[Lokhopkuen]

In a world where whippy swords and dance moves are readily accepted as "martial training", where the measure of one's (supposed) skill is counted in the sheer number of forms one has collected, its perfectly reasonable to accept the notion of "secret techniques".

-jo

Depends who's forms you practice, does it not?
There are a great number of secrets in Martial Art and many of them are kept in the form. The form is like a love letter from the progenitors of true systems of fighting handed down from antiquity to modern man.

Sifu Manuel's Sam Bo Jin {above} for instance is quite powerful as far as training ritual goes. In fact I was quite happy to experience his skills under friendly circumstance as opposed to sudden violent introduction. Chu Ka have some rare skill sets or secrets that are extremely difficult to counter.

A well constructed, well maintained series of ritual training methods are essential for the longevity and consistency of any system. Our Bak Siu Lum is a primary example of this where we practice ten forms each one focused of various methods of martial expression, integrated, interwoven and interlinked RARE SKILL SETS. In my personal experience consistant daily practice and experimentation has lent me stability, flexibility, adaptability along with cleverly applied strength coupled with solid subtle geometric alignments. We don't practice form to collect them, we practice them until they live in us and then we forget them. When it's alive in you, you don't have to remember, it's there on tap. (Props to Ten tigers for touching on similar points)

Whippy sword is out there somewhere, but in many traditional systems the sword is alive and well.

((This isn't necessarily directed at you Jo, but))

In my experience the people that talk cr*p about form training are usually people from systems with too many under practiced and misunderstood forms or MMA practitioners who learned amalgam mishmash from some relatively low level skilled "business man" cashing in on the mixed Martial Arts Craze. A large percent of people who practice martial cultivation never lucked into, or were diligent enough, or dedicated enough effort to find and gain the respect of a real teacher connected to a true fighting lineage. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with MMA, or maybe I am :D

[RenDaHai]

I agree with LiuHeQuan above (sorry, I can't bring myself to use the cantonese).

The construction of ancient forms is something very few people understand. The poetic sequence and abstract moves conceal a vast amount of martial knowledge. But without the 'Key' it is invisible to you. People don't realise much of traditional wushu is abstract, the stance reflects the principle clearly but doesn't always reflect the technique clearly. The principle is more important because in reality the technique will never be the same as in training, but the principle, the formula, will be.

But I will say that actually there are no secrets as such, everything is there in front of you, but in order to understand it it takes a lot of time. No one really holds stuff back, but if your skills are not good enough, they simply won't teach you.

A Master and disciple is a special relationship. The master wants a good disciple as much as a disciple wants a good master. Without the other neither could exist. A master will freely teach you everything, If he thinks you have the potential to learn. If he's not teaching you stuff it is because you are not good enough, or because he has nothing to teach, he's not keeping secrets.

As people have been saying Chinese Gong Fu is an entire lifestyle, it certainly not just some fighting skills. Fighting skills can be learned quite fast, but to understand TCMA does really take many years.

Training for health is far more practical than training for combat, because you are many times more likely to die of poor health than die in a street fight. I'm sure this was always true, even in the times of bandits and warlords.

[Lokhopkuen]

Your wife has been telling stories about me again? :p

That is so disrespectful:confused:

[TenTigers]

I agree with LiuHeQuan above (sorry, I can't bring myself to use the cantonese).


not for nothing, but don't you find that to be a bit disrespectful?

[SanHeChuan]

That is so disrespectful:confused:

You left the door open. I just walked through it. ;)

Besides its JUST the internet. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

My teacher puts it this way;
"Will training in my style make you unstoppable? No.
Will it make you better than anyone else? No.
What I have is a specific set of skills.
Whether you choose to learn it or not is up to you."

I chose to learn it.

Correctumondo.

[MysteriousPower]

I agree with LiuHeQuan above (sorry, I can't bring myself to use the cantonese).

The construction of ancient forms is something very few people understand. The poetic sequence and abstract moves conceal a vast amount of martial knowledge. But without the 'Key' it is invisible to you. People don't realise much of traditional wushu is abstract, the stance reflects the principle clearly but doesn't always reflect the technique clearly. The principle is more important because in reality the technique will never be the same as in training, but the principle, the formula, will be.

But I will say that actually there are no secrets as such, everything is there in front of you, but in order to understand it it takes a lot of time. No one really holds stuff back, but if your skills are not good enough, they simply won't teach you.

A Master and disciple is a special relationship. The master wants a good disciple as much as a disciple wants a good master. Without the other neither could exist. A master will freely teach you everything, If he thinks you have the potential to learn. If he's not teaching you stuff it is because you are not good enough, or because he has nothing to teach, he's not keeping secrets.

As people have been saying Chinese Gong Fu is an entire lifestyle, it certainly not just some fighting skills. Fighting skills can be learned quite fast, but to understand TCMA does really take many years.

Training for health is far more practical than training for combat, because you are many times more likely to die of poor health than die in a street fight. I'm sure this was always true, even in the times of bandits and warlords.

What you and luokopen(sp?) are saying makes sense but you both are making sound a little too esoteic for my tastes. The "ancients" who put together the forms were putting together forms for how THEIR bodies moved. The forms were an extension of what existed inside of them through spirits, a god, genetics, or more likely what they were naturally good at and which drew their attention. They then taught these for s to their disciples who also shared their point of view. So what a form does for the interested student is aligns your body to what your mind wants and what your heart feels is right. Forms help train "prebirth" methods or in other words apriori. Forms help to train what was there already. This is why you hear stories of famous teachers only accepting stdentd with experience because the more you bring wih you the more that gets transformed when doing the new forms. In other other words it is like putting wood into a machine and furniture comes out the other end. The better quality the wood and the more wood you put in the better the end product. That is the function of forms in English for experienced fighters.

Forms do not have the same affects for people with no experience in the martial arts. It becomes a blind practice. What forms mean for us is a way to indoctrinate our bodies to do movements that, are not necessarily natural, naturally.

[SanHeChuan]

What were you saying about esoteic? :confused:

pot meet kettle. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms served a purpose for the times they were developed in.
That is not to say that they are obsolete, that isn't the point.
Can one learn to fight with forms?
In conjunction with sparring, yes.
Does one NEED forms to learn to fight and develop as a fighter? No.
Can forms HINDER the development of a fighter? Yes.
Can forms HELP the development of a fighter? Yes.
Do forms STILL serve a purpose?
Yes.
Is that purpose to develop fighting skills? Nope.
While they CAN do they, there are better ways to do it now.
Are forms essential elements for some MA?
Yes, I believe so.

[Wildwoo]

Your wife has been telling stories about me again? :p

His wife is in the hospital about to leave this world due to cancer.
Internet or not d!psh!t show some respect.:rolleyes:

[Lokhopkuen]

What you and luokopen(sp?) are saying makes sense but you both are making sound a little too esoteic for my tastes. The "ancients" who put together the forms were putting together forms for how THEIR bodies moved. The forms were an extension of what existed inside of them through spirits, a god, genetics, or more likely what they were naturally good at and which drew their attention. They then taught these for s to their disciples who also shared their point of view. So what a form does for the interested student is aligns your body to what your mind wants and what your heart feels is right. Forms help train "prebirth" methods or in other words apriori. Forms help to train what was there already. This is why you hear stories of famous teachers only accepting stdentd with experience because the more you bring wih you the more that gets transformed when doing the new forms. In other other words it is like putting wood into a machine and furniture comes out the other end. The better quality the wood and the more wood you put in the better the end product. That is the function of forms in English for experienced fighters.

Forms do not have the same affects for people with no experience in the martial arts. It becomes a blind practice. What forms mean for us is a way to indoctrinate our bodies to do movements that, are not necessarily natural, naturally.

Form alone is a waste of time, fighting as an art is multi leveled, multi faceted, multi dimensional over and through time.;) Nothing much has changed since my Great Grandmaster formulated his learnings in to a teachable system other than they actually used it in life or death combat. (Well except I'm a foot and a half taller, stronger and carry pistols with 30 shot clips) :D

[Lokhopkuen]

Forms served a purpose for the times they were developed in.
That is not to say that they are obsolete, that isn't the point.
Can one learn to fight with forms?
In conjunction with sparring, yes.
Does one NEED forms to learn to fight and develop as a fighter? No.
Can forms HINDER the development of a fighter? Yes.
Can forms HELP the development of a fighter? Yes.
Do forms STILL serve a purpose?
Yes.
Is that purpose to develop fighting skills? Nope.
While they CAN do they, there are better ways to do it now.
Are forms essential elements for some MA?
Yes, I believe so.

You should run for state office Ronnie Raygun:D
You know what the people want! LOL!

[SanHeChuan]

Pretty sure I was not addressing you and you think you can say what you want about my family?

It's a small world after all.

Pretty sure there are no private conversations on a public board. But since you took offense then I am sorry.

[RenDaHai]

Forms served a purpose for the times they were developed in.
That is not to say that they are obsolete, that isn't the point.
Can one learn to fight with forms?
In conjunction with sparring, yes.
Does one NEED forms to learn to fight and develop as a fighter? No.
Can forms HINDER the development of a fighter? Yes.
Can forms HELP the development of a fighter? Yes.
Do forms STILL serve a purpose?
Yes.
Is that purpose to develop fighting skills? Nope.
While they CAN do they, there are better ways to do it now.
Are forms essential elements for some MA?
Yes, I believe so.


Yeah, I agree with this, well said. There are many Wushu styles that exist without forms, just collections of a few good single moves, that are drilled. Even in something form heavy like Shaolin, there are sets of moves which are just single moves with drills.

Forms do come from a different time. A time when no one had you tube or tvs to watch fights. SO if a simple Uppercut appeared in a form it may have been an absolute revelation to someone who had never seen that way to punch before. But forms still have a lot to teach us about strategy and combat, and there are good moves hidden in forms that are not exploited in many of todays combat systems because of the emphasis on sports combat, and the fact lots of people don't understand forms. But yeah, they are not essential and they can be a distraction. But hell, I love them. There is something awesome about practicing a form that some warrior 500 years ago may have practiced the same way.

[Lokhopkuen]

Yeah, I agree with this, well said. There are many Wushu styles that exist without forms, just collections of a few good single moves, that are drilled. Even in something form heavy like Shaolin, there are sets of moves which are just single moves with drills.
{SNIP}

Those are forms:rolleyes:

[RenDaHai]

On me not being able to write cantonese;


not for nothing, but don't you find that to be a bit disrespectful?

Haha, yeah. SOrry, I didn't mean it like that. Cantonese can be a beautiful language, but unfortunately when written in english it looks ridiculous.

LopHokKuen is not as beautiful as LiuHeQuan (leo her chwen), I know its in the eye of the beholder but still.

What I really hate is the word 'Kwoon' for Dojo. It sounds and looks silly in english, and has nothing to do with martial arts, it just means a place or a building. In Mandarin it is 'Guan' but in order to say Dojo you would need to say 'Wu Guan' with Wu being the important word (martial). Guan (kwoon) is not important at all, you don't even need it, you can say Wu Yuan for example, a different word for a building structure. I suppose Wukwoon would be ok but that sounds even more silly. There is just no way to write cantonese in english that looks cool. SO I like to translate to mandarin. Most of the time we just say 'Lian gong fang' or training room.

Sorry for the unneccessary rant....

[RenDaHai]

Those are forms:rolleyes:

Hehe, got me there. Yeah I guess so, but only in the same way a hook is a form, or an uppercut is a form.

[Lokhopkuen]

Pretty sure there are no private conversations on a public board. But since you took offense then I am sorry.

I don't get mad I get even::D

As we speak 12 of Ashida Kim's sexy azz NinjaB!tches and one big Old Sea Hag have been dispatched to your location armed with their retractable Naginatas and a generous supply of Hanae Mori Perfume, so you prolly gonna need some:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2259/2116315673_ae39d9cbe0.jpg

[Lokhopkuen]

Hehe, got me there. Yeah I guess so, but only in the same way a hook is a form, or an uppercut is a form.

Them Shaolin mans making you all picky n stuff?:D:cool::eek:
Form (exercise)= a proper way of performing an exercise

[TenTigers]

On me not being able to write cantonese;




What I really hate is the word 'Kwoon' for Dojo. It sounds and looks silly in english, and has nothing to do with martial arts, it just means a place or a building. In Mandarin it is 'Guan' but in order to say Dojo you would need to say 'Wu Guan' with Wu being the important word (martial). Guan (kwoon) is not important at all, you don't even need it, you can say Wu Yuan for example, a different word for a building structure. I suppose Wukwoon would be ok but that sounds even more silly. There is just no way to write cantonese in english that looks cool. SO I like to translate to mandarin. Most of the time we just say 'Lian gong fang' or training room.

Sorry for the unneccessary rant....

the correct Cantonese term would be Mo-Gwoon, but gwoon, or kwoon has become acceptable-not by English speaking people who don't know any better, but by Chinese, as in Buk Sing Gwoon.
I guess it's the same as Gung-Fu being an accepted term for Mo-Suht.
Then again, in English, we use terms like, studio, school, academy,gym, etc.
None of which are really accurate.
Doesn't bother me.
What does bother me is when people say,"Bo-Staff!" agggghhh!:D

[SanHeChuan]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2259/2116315673_ae39d9cbe0.jpg

Nice! :cool:

[RenDaHai]

t
What does bother me is when people say,"Bo-Staff!" agggghhh!:D

Ahaha, Yeah that is much much worse!

[Lokhopkuen]

What does bother me is when people say,"Bo-Staff!" agggghhh!:D

When I was in the Mid-West last month I autographed 50 "Bo-Staff!" :eek::eek:

[David Jamieson]

tapered? lol

ah, napoleon dynamite has brought us all new laughs for when the geekazoid chimpanzee shows up and starts to tell us all about his skeelz and his upcoming career as a cage fighter!
:p

[bawang]

I agree with LiuHeQuan above (sorry, I can't bring myself to use the cantonese).

The construction of ancient forms is something very few people understand.
noe u r rong
form is random techniques string together
oldest name of form is called taozi. it means gimmick, a hook to catch someones attention
a taozi is a rope hoop u put on the ground to catch a animals leg

[MasterKiller]

http://izismile.com/img/img2/20090122/fat_06.jpg

[David Jamieson]

There are sets that are also not for fighting at all.

Not random drills strung together at all in some cases.

A nei-gong set for instance or a hei-gung (chi kung/qigong) set.
These are not fighting sets, but are sets within some curriculums of kungfu depending on what you're learning.

[Lucas]

MK needs to be put down guys....hes gone rabid..

[David Jamieson]

http://izismile.com/img/img2/20090122/fat_06.jpg

Good job!

This dude has obviously worked his ass literally off to correct his obesity.

He is healthier now and will be going forward.

[David Jamieson]

Plus, look at those nipples!

Outstanding!

[MasterKiller]

Good job!

This dude has obviously worked his ass literally off to correct his obesity.

He is healthier now and will be going forward.

I imagine that's from a lap band procedure, but nonetheless...

[David Jamieson]

I imagine that's from a lap band procedure, but nonetheless...

still had to relearn how to eat, how to chew and all that. :)

It's not easy just because of the procedure. It helps, but it ain't easy.

[TenTigers]

at least he won't be embarrassed at the beach anymore.
Time to order a new pair of speedos!

[Yum Cha]

Forms. WTF are forms? My forms, your forms, tai chi, 2-man, shen gung, Iron Body....

Limp ging fairy floss or full tilt boogie that will blow an embolism...

Internal breathing with physical awareness and oxygen highs, or combination training against a tree?

Fluidity or physical extension, both, neither....

I sure wish I was as sure of it all as some of you.

From my point of view, forms are an enigma. They are not all created equal, nor are their influence on individuals equal. They are physical training, exercise, and to me they prime the pump, giving you inspiration and understanding, which I can carry the next step into application. Kung fu lives in the man, not the forms. Tools, not craftsmanship.

People can turn nothing (anything) into Kung Fu, right Uki? Just like people can turn Kung Fu into nothing. Just one of those things.

And of course, its a given, we all admit that there are two paths. One most direct, one more languid, and many in between. Is it a journey, or a destination? No two are the same, but they all lead to the same place, a Canuk Sausage fest in Toronto...

[MysteriousPower]

There are sets that are also not for fighting at all.

Not random drills strung together at all in some cases.

A nei-gong set for instance or a hei-gung (chi kung/qigong) set.
These are not fighting sets, but are sets within some curriculums of kungfu depending on what you're learning.



Here is what I know. I have been told that excercises are done in a certain order to have an energetic effect on the whole body. I was also told that each excercise can be done on its own as chi gong excercise. How can it be said that the excercises are strung together to have a specific effect on the body and organs but then say that individual excercises can be done without the total?

How can different qi gong sets have the same excercises...but in a different order because would that not affect the energetic organ stimulation?

They sound a lot like forms and in fact they are forms strung together in different orders by different people. And I would also argue that they have nothing to do with energy(qi) and the body's organ functions.

From your point of view what is the reason for doing these non-forms?

[TenTigers]

it really depends on which exercises these are and who told you this information. Who did he learn them from?
Check your sources.
Just because someone told you something and that person may be mistaken, does not negate forms, or noi-gung/hei-gung.

[RenDaHai]

Neigong tends to just stand still, the movement is of the mind and qi not the body,

Qi gong has hundreds of forms, they tend to have basic excercise and stretching in them as well as breath skill and Qi skill. The qi element would be pointless without first learning nei gong, but the stretching, strengthening and breathing are very nice healthy excercises.




On another note, if anyones interested, In the old days TaoLu (forms) used to be referred to as XinFa (lit. to project your heart). Something to think about.

[David Jamieson]

Neigong tends to just stand still, the movement is of the mind and qi not the body,

Qi gong has hundreds of forms, they tend to have basic excercise and stretching in them as well as breath skill and Qi skill. The qi element would be pointless without first learning nei gong, but the stretching, strengthening and breathing are very nice healthy excercises.




On another note, if anyones interested, In the old days TaoLu (forms) used to be referred to as XinFa (lit. to project your heart). Something to think about.

I disagree about standing still as nei gong. That would be zhang zhuang. Which is a form of nei gong, but it is so much more than just staying still and looking inside. You have to work what is inside too and nei gong is the vehicle for that.

Neigong is also quite physical in many respects. I have learned a nei gong set that has head to toe exercises within it.

qi gongs like ba duan jin or yi jin jing to name only two in a sea of them, can appear to have fighting technique, but really it is about optimized oxygen flow, muscle and tendon lengthening and strengthening, keeping legament supple, hardening bone through vibration and so on and so forth. These are done in sequenced sets or as extrapolated focus work.

[RenDaHai]

Yes, I suppose the definition changes from place to place.....

The two are often Synonyms...

In my sect Nei Gong would be concentrating only on internal movement (which is easiest when not moving) while qi gong would be combining neigong with external movement. But I accept many people and sects use the terms differently....

Ba Duan Jin and Yi Jin Jing are remarkable forms.... They differ vastly throughout china, and yet stay similar at the same time. But every sect seems to hold different things as important. Wudang to shaolin, south to north, they all practice these sets. I would love to know what the original ones were like..... I suppose there is no way to know for sure.

Some people even have a Xi Shui Jing set (perhaps even more powerful), others say it is lost, others still have excercises for xi shui jing without movement....

[MysteriousPower]

it really depends on which exercises these are and who told you this information. Who did he learn them from?
Check your sources.
Just because someone told you something and that person may be mistaken, does not negate forms, or noi-gung/hei-gung.

I am not negating nei gong. Nei gong(body work) and qi gong(breath work) are actually the same thing. A person moves around while doing coordinated and, depending on the movement, uncoordinated movement. Some movements are harder than others but it is futile to try to differentiate the two. It is all semantics. I enjoy doing nei gong as part of regular conditioning.

IMO, people who tout the health/energetic view of qi gong get confused abou the order and function of excercises. This might be because the combination of specific excercise movements(nei gong) with principals from Chinese medicine did not happen until Sun Lu Tang did so in his books on the internal martial arts. He did this to raise the view of martial arts from that of something brutes and soldiers only do.

If you look at nei gong as one component of overall excercise and not something that moves "energy" it makes sense that you can do any excercise in any order.

None of my sources are wrong or right since this is all really just opinion. My original source, Tim Cartmell, is of the excercise school of thought and not of the energy feeling crowd. I give his view more weight because:
1. He actually speaks Chinese and not just random words.
2. He reads, writes, and translates Chinese books to English.
3. He competes/fights regularly.

[David Jamieson]

Like a flag that has been whipped by weather, only some of it may be recognizable as a flag at all. :)

Having said that, there is also a system dependance when it comes to teh value of sets in context to a given curriculum.

so, a hodge podge system is designed for a workout and technique delivery whereas a well thought out system that is designed to progressively build the user is different.

some systems are hodge podge, others are robust and complete ramping methods.

the hodge podge styles are probably better for someone who already has studied one well formed curriculum than the other way round.

Nothing beats a good foundation in either respect. the good foundation is the sturdiest part and takes the most effort to build. Once it's there, there's is no limit to what you can sustain on top of that.

[MysteriousPower]

Like a flag that has been whipped by weather, only some of it may be recognizable as a flag at all. :)

Having said that, there is also a system dependance when it comes to teh value of sets in context to a given curriculum.

so, a hodge podge system is designed for a workout and technique delivery whereas a well thought out system that is designed to progressively build the user is different.

some systems are hodge podge, others are robust and complete ramping methods.

the hodge podge styles are probably better for someone who already has studied one well formed curriculum than the other way round.

Nothing beats a good foundation in either respect. the good foundation is the sturdiest part and takes the most effort to build. Once it's there, there's is no limit to what you can sustain on top of that.

When you say "slowly builds you up" what exactly are you referring to and what dies the good foundation you eluded to help you sustain on top of it?

[TenTigers]

Noi-Gung is inner work, not body work. It combines breathing, visualization, meditation, and focuses on energy development and circulation. This can be physical and/or spiritual, and does not have to have any outward movement at all. Quite often it consists of sitting, lying, or standing meditations. (Outward stillness inward motion)

[MysteriousPower]

Noi-Gung is inner work, not body work. It combines breathing, visualization, meditation, and focuses on energy development and circulation. This can be physical and/or spiritual, and does not have to have any outward movement at all. Quite often it consists of sitting, lying, or standing meditations. (Outward stillness inward motion)

I did not mention the word "inner" or I ternal with my definition because i do not agree with those terms. Nei= inner body work. It works the body from I side out as opposed to outside first.

[TenTigers]

I did not mention the word "inner" or I ternal with my definition because i do not agree with those terms. Nei= inner body work. It works the body from I side out as opposed to outside first.
I understand what you are saying, but to change a term's meaning to fit in with your own personal definition because you don't agree with it is narrow.

"Abraham Lincoln used to ask people this question, "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When they would answer "Five" he would give them a scathing look and reply, "Four! Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg!"

[RenDaHai]

@TenTigers

Great Quote! I agree

Nei (inside) Gong (skill)

@Forum, A lot of people have different opinions on what Qi gong is.....

I am not going to argue whether 'QI' exists because I have no convincing evidence for or against and conjecture and anecdote are not admissable.

However I will say that Qi gong and Nei Gong are skills pertaining to the movement of Qi inside the body. To learn to both feel and manipulate it. What Qi is is not important for the moment, but that is what nei gong is. If it is taught as a purely physical exercise whether working 'from inside' or not it is not nei gong, or qi gong. Whether it works or not is also not the issue, but that is what qi gong and nei gong is....manipulating qi. (nei gong also covers a whole range of meditational states).

A great deal of Nei Gong requires only movement of the mind, and no movement of the body. The best nei gong requires no movement of either the mind or the body...

[MysteriousPower]

Would anyone here consider body weight excercises like push ups(its many variations) and squats to fall into the nei gong category?

[TenTigers]

depends what you're thinking about at the time! LOL:D

[David Jamieson]

When you say "slowly builds you up" what exactly are you referring to and what dies the good foundation you eluded to help you sustain on top of it?

slowly builds you up is to say that progressively you will develop in an even fashion. In many kungfu styles, this means even development of total body balance by using repitition of tactile drills that can be postural work or moving work or any number of things in order to bring that. I say slowly, because rome wasn't built in a day.

as for the foundation.

If you are strong, mentally and physically have good endurance and are conditioned enough to withstand some physical abuse, that is the foundation. To build it, there are myriad and equally mundane ways to do so. lol resitance, cardio vascular, plyo, and so on and so forth.

When you have that, you can put what you like on top. the skills of a boxer, the skills of a grappler, the skills of a well rounded ring fighter in modern mixed martial arts, and so on and ...

I thought that would be somewhat self evident. no?

foundation = strength, condition, will
skill set = whatever you like
method for each = many and varied

[MysteriousPower]

depends what you're thinking about at the time! LOL:D



I like to think about Jessica Biel while doing push ups. It always gives me that extra boost.

[MysteriousPower]

slowly builds you up is to say that progressively you will develop in an even fashion. In many kungfu styles, this means even development of total body balance by using repitition of tactile drills that can be postural work or moving work or any number of things in order to bring that. I say slowly, because rome wasn't built in a day.

as for the foundation.

If you are strong, mentally and physically have good endurance and are conditioned enough to withstand some physical abuse, that is the foundation. To build it, there are myriad and equally mundane ways to do so. lol resitance, cardio vascular, plyo, and so on and so forth.

When you have that, you can put what you like on top. the skills of a boxer, the skills of a grappler, the skills of a well rounded ring fighter in modern mixed martial arts, and so on and ...

I thought that would be somewhat self evident. no?

foundation = strength, condition, will
skill set = whatever you like
method for each = many and varied

I was trying to gauge whether you were discussing the development of physical attributes(which you were) or something else. Thanks for the clarification.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Would anyone here consider body weight excercises like push ups(its many variations) and squats to fall into the nei gong category?

What? didn't you know? there are no push-ups in SPM, at least not in Chow Gar according to one of our "resident knowitalls".
Of course it seems that GM Yip Shui forgot to tell that to Sifu Whitrod.

[MysteriousPower]

What? didn't you know? there are no push-ups in SPM, at least not in Chow Gar according to one of our "resident knowitalls".
Of course it seems that GM Yip Shui forgot to tell that to Sifu Whitrod.

I must have missed something in this thread. Who is the resident know it all that says there are no push ups in chow far? Paul Whitrod is actually hitting his students in his videos. I would hate to be in a video with him. Lol

I believe that after basic nei gong isndone the anti has to be upped in terms of harder excercise to get stronger.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I must have missed something in this thread. Who is the resident know it all that says there are no push ups in chow far? Paul Whitrod is actually hitting his students in his videos. I would hate to be in a video with him. Lol

I believe that after basic nei gong isndone the anti has to be upped in terms of harder excercise to get stronger.

It was another thread but never mind about that silliness.
I just mentioned it to give an example of erroneous beliefs in regards to internal MA work and physical conditioning.

[Dragonzbane76]

It was another thread but never mind about that silliness.
I just mentioned it to give an example of erroneous beliefs in regards to internal MA work and physical conditioning.
__________________

watch out sanjuro...your going to call down the circling vulture.. :p

[RenDaHai]

Hey Mysterious....

Really, whether you believe it works or not Nei Gong is an Esoteric, almost occult practice. You can't compare it to any conditioning of the body, it could be compared to conditioning of mind I suppose. But the idea of Pushups being nei gong is utterly ridiculous...

You can't really 'Up' the ante after training Nei Gong since nei gong is about the highest practice. If someone has told you nei gong is a form of muscular conditioning then you can here after assume that person knows no nei gong.

(there is perhaps some muscular development involved, those in the perineum, small movements of the skull, etc but not on the scale you are thinking)