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loki
08-15-2000, 10:13 AM
Someone has stated on another post something that has made me curious. I study 7 * mantis under the Chiu Chi Man lineage. While it is true that many of the basic to intermediate forms in our lineage do not have too many kicks (variety wise) except for front kicks we do have more advance kicks in the higher forms. They include outside crescents, tornado kicks , roundhouses, ground sweeps, etc. There is even a form that is all kicking.

Now, I have been informed that none of the WHF forms contain any other kicks except for the front kick. Are there any other WHF people out there who can confirm this and why is this?

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

BeiTangLang
08-15-2000, 05:06 PM
For the most part, he is correct to my memory. Most of them are either groin or front kicks, but there are spurratic others. Bak Yuen Tow To <forgive the spelling>, has a "scisor" kick, and two turning round-kicks. There are a a few forms that have inside crescents. There are of course several sweeps in the forms, a couple of them have concurrent sweeps. To my knowledge we have no all kicking form. But then, I am not high on the totem pole in mantis, so my memories are subject to great scrutiny & I will take no offence in being corrected by any of my family.
-BTL

mantis boxer
08-16-2000, 12:46 AM
I have learned about 10 of the 7 star mantis forms and I have seen maybe 25. We have many shin kicks, front kicks and groin kicks. The only form that goes kicking crazy is ''four side directional attack." We have NO form that does all kicking. If you take out ""4 side directional attack" you will find not outside crescent kicks or tornado kicks. It's not in our curriculum. I have seen bong bo, steals the peach, spear hand, plum blossom hand, plum blossom fist, falling plum blossom, goose palm, essentials, white ape steals the peach , short form , long form, 4 side directional attack, 18 ancestors, big wheel fist, small wheel fist and a few others. I am confident in saying that the wong hon fun lineage does not have many northern shaolin like kicks.

BeiTangLang
08-16-2000, 01:58 AM
Yup. If memory serves, the all kicking form is an excersize drill of Tam Tui (added to some systems during the joining of systems at Ching Mo Acadamy) & is definently not in WHF lineage as mantis boxer points out.

Young Mantis
08-16-2000, 02:38 AM
I study PM from the WHF lineage and would agree with Mantis Boxer that most of our kicks fall under front, shin and groin. Yes, "Sei Lo Bun Da" is the most kick intensive form and is the only one I know of that has an outside crescent kick. Many of the forms do have inside crescent kicks such as "Bahk Yuen Tau Tow" and "Yau Ling". "Siew Gah Sik" teaches the forward and reverse sweeps. I disagree with MB in that there are tornado kicks. The drunken form, "Jui Law Hawn" has them as well as the partner form, "Tow Fah Sahn".

Loki, you mention that "Conitnuous Brocade Weaving" has an outside crescent kick. Are you referring the the form, "Leen Wahn Gum Tow"? I have completed that form but can not find an outside crescent kick in that form. Are we talking about the same form? If so, where is the kick in your version?


[This message has been edited by Young Mantis (edited 08-16-2000).]

loki
08-16-2000, 07:40 AM
Hi Young Mantis. Yes, I am referring to Lin Wan Gam Tow. The outside crescent kick is found around the 3rd road in the form. We have a sequence which we call main combination. It is a left reverse punch in hill climbing stance, right side punch in horse and right backfist in h.c.s. again. This sequence is followed by Bak Yune Chan Hak or White Ape Invites The Guest ( double hand grab to the right side of body in a tiger riding stance. We step into a horse stance w/ the right leg and execute a right side punch (stealing the heart). Now we turn counterclockwise behind 180 degrees. As we turn the arms swing down and up clockwise until they are overhead to the right side. The right outside crescent kick is executed at the end of this whole turning sequence , where the leg meets the hands. Both hands hit (slap) the outside of the foot, kick goes CW and hands go CCW. The leg goes down and you begin another 180 degrees turn and execute an upward overhead jing jow w/ a straight right punch in a cross stance. After that is a sequence similar to that found towards the last part of Bung Bo.

Also, our version of this form ends with 3 consecutive tornado kicks.

The all kicking form I am referring to has nothing to do w/ the Tam Toy that was taught at Jing Mo and adopted by the Mantis and Eagle Claw schools. That is a basic form that is usually taught in the beginning if taught at all. The form I am talking of is called Plum Blossom Kicks and is an advanced form.

It is strange that the WHF sets would not have any of these kicks in the empty hand forms but they are included in the WHF weapons sets.

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[This message has been edited by loki (edited 08-16-2000).]

Paul Skrypichayko
08-16-2000, 07:55 AM
Has anybody thought that there are more techniques to a style than just the ones that are found in forms?

I'm a strong believer in this mode of thinking, and I've noticed it in many different situations. After all, forms are there to help you, not to limit you. The forms may contain mostly shin kick and groin/snap kick, but this could be because they were the safest and most effective techniques, and probably the favorites of Master X.

I also think my master once told me about seeing Wong Hon Fun do some very beautiful acrobatic kicks (much more than just shin and snap kick).

LawClansman
08-17-2000, 09:24 AM
Greetings,

For the record, Wong Hon Fun taught various type of kicks during class. The Suen Fong Toy (tornado kick) is found in the drunken set (Joy Lo Hon) the drunken saber set, Tow Fa San the two man set.

Wong Hon Fan did not teach his entire cirrculum to anyone. So there may easily be other types of kicks in some of his highest sets.

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Sifu Carl

mantis boxer
08-17-2000, 12:38 PM
I dont' agree. Those drunken forms are silly and really have nothing to do with praying mantis. They are a later creation. WHF not teaching the kicks? It's not a characteristic to have tornado kicks in 7 star mantis. Plum blossom fist and fallling plum blossom are advanced sets. If tornado kicks were apart of the curriculum then they would have appeared in those sets as well as others. Look at northern shaolin > Their basic set #6 already has sweeps and kicks.

loki
08-17-2000, 06:27 PM
Brendan Lai has gone on record to say that he never learned all of WHF's forms. WHF never learned all of Law Kwong Yuk's forms.

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

Yee Ho Society
08-17-2000, 08:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mantis boxer:
I have learned about 10 of the 7 star mantis forms and I have seen maybe 25. [/quote]
In knowing 1/4 of the style that WHF taught and only seeing approx. 1/2 of the total system, how can you be confidant of the system, it seems to me you are making a pretty arrogant statement with no knowledge to back it up.
And for disagreeing with Sifu Albright, again you are a novice in the art, and if it were me, I would have a tad more respect toward those who have more experience in a system.
Just a thought.

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Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

RAYNYSC
08-18-2000, 01:48 AM
The bottom line here is that Wong Hun Fan never learned the whole Seven Star Pray Mantis System, under Law Kwong Yuk at jing mo... Maybe that's why nobody ever learned the whole Pray Mantis System under Wong Hun Fan...

But that doesn't mean that he never taught these various types of kicks during class as Sifu Albright has mentioned before he did. The problem here is that Won Hung Fan never tought his entire curriculum to anyone There may easily be other types of kicks in some of his higher sets who knows?...

PEACE /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



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RAYNYSC

[This message has been edited by RAYNYSC (edited 08-18-2000).]

Young Mantis
08-18-2000, 02:03 AM
Loki,

The debate regarding the difference in number of forms between the WHF and CCM lineages is old and really not that pertinent to this conversation. I don't quite understand why you are bringing it up in this thread.

You have also stated that you are in the CCM lineage. Where are you getting all your information regarding the WHF lineage curriculum? Your statement regarding the kicks being in weapon forms and not empty hand forms is puzzling to me. Do you know the WHF forms enough to make this statement?

I also find it very interesting that your version of "Lin Wan Gum Tow" sounds very different from mine. In fact, the section you described does not appear at all in mine and we certainly do not do three consecutive tornado kicks. That is not characteristic of NPM, at least not for the WHF lineage. I checked the form listing provided by WHF and it does not appear in there either. With so many of the forms the two lineages do share in common and are fairly consistent sequentially, I wonder why this form is so different. I am not questioning the validity of one over the other, they just might be different but it certainly is interesting. Perhaps Sifu Albright would like to comment on this subject.

Mantis Boxer,

Although you may not like the drunken forms, I think your comment about them being silly is a bit disrespectful since WHF did teach those forms. I do agree with you that high acrobatic kicks are not characteristic of NPM, hence they do not appear very often.

[This message has been edited by Young Mantis (edited 08-18-2000).]

loki
08-18-2000, 02:32 AM
Young Mantis,

It was not my intention at all to stir up a debate over the WHF/CCM lineages. Everyone knows this has gone on long enough. The point I was attempting to make (very early in the morning, mind you) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif was that maybe there are certain things which were not passed on to WHF who in turn did not pass on certain things to his students. I am in no way trying to take anything away from Wong Hon Fun as he did a lot to popularize the art of 7* mantis and his record of producing prominent, respectable and skillful Sifu speaks for itself.

As to where I get my information from , well what I posted earlier concerning Brendan Lai was from Fernando Dopazo's website, The Mantis Cave. If you have never been there you should check it out. It has the most extensive and thorough lineage chart for the 7* system and good biographies for the more prominent and easily accessible Sifu for each generation. Any other info I have comes from personally having seen their forms played by WHF lineage practitioners and from having a Sifu who is very knowledgeable on the subject and who in fact met Wong Hun Fun at his school.

As to the differences in the form , what can I say? That is the way our lineage does it. There are many forms which have little if any differences and then there are forms which have big differences. Then there are forms that we have but none of the Wong Hun Fun people ever heard of them or seen them. Again, what can I say? ( I can say something, but I would rather not).

But you are right, perhaps Sifu Albright ( my Sifu) would like to add to this.

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

Young Mantis
08-18-2000, 03:48 AM
Loki,

I agree that the differences in forms really just comes down to how each lineage does them differently. Just as you say, we have some that Chiu Chiu Man lineage practitioners don't have and vice versa and it's probably best to leave it at that. I'm sure we both have our opinions on the matter which should be kept private. >=)

Best of luck with your studies.
YM

mantis boxer
08-18-2000, 04:31 AM
I've seen maybe 25 of the hand forms. How many are there? Many say 36, but I don't agree. Kung Lek kuen , tam tui etc are not apart of praying mantis. They are northern shaolin basics from Jing Wu. Sifu ALbright does CCM mantis which i heard has 70 hand forms? I've seen many advanced sets and there are only a few that I have not seen yet. (hand sets) NO knowledge to back it up? The 25 hand forms that I've seen have many repeats from the forms that I already konw. (90% of it are repeats) The others resemble northern shaolin movements that I already have learned from some of my n. shaolin training. Just because I disgree with a "sifu" makes me arrogant? No disrespect to Albright, but anyone can open a school and be a "sifu." Does that make their knowledge superior? Just a thought.

loki
08-18-2000, 05:03 AM
Agreed MB, "anybody" can open up a school and call themselves Sifu but Sifu Albright is not "anybody". He is the real deal and if you ask around I am sure you will hear the same.

I really do not want to get into a ridiculous flame war with you so let's not go there. You have made it clear that you hold some sort of contempt for our lineage and to tell you the truth I couldn't care less. My point to this whole thing is this, so what you don't have these kicks? What are you telling me? We put them there? As I have mentioned before it has been said that WHF did not receive the entire curriculum from LKY and that has been stated by persons outside of our camp.That perhaps may be the reason why are these differences exist. Yet, this does not mean that he did not know enough that he could not pass on what he did know. WHF was a good practitioner and a good Sifu, there is no denying this. My question is if something within our lineages differs are we to hold WHF's teachings and curriculum as the standard between what is 7* and what is not as so many people so often and mistakenly do? I have to respond with a resounding NO!.

Peace

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

LawClansman
08-18-2000, 08:24 PM
Mantis Boxer, Young Mantis and Loki,

Unlike many of my clan, I have no vendetta against Wong Hon Fun. As I have stated before, I knew him and , due to his fame, wanted to learn from him. I originally started under his classmate Chan Chun Yee in 1957. In 1968 I was with Chiu Leun. When in Hong Kong, I recieved numerous corrections on my sets (due to my own fault) by Chiu Chi Man.

That there are differences in the sets between Wong Hon Fun and Chiu Chi Man is old news. So what? They are different. Jon Funk and Tony Chuy are from the same lineage and there are differences in what they do. There are differences in Chiu Leun forms and Lee Kam Wing's. This is human nature. Nobody is perfect.

The important thing is that any one of us has enough information to master the mantis system. It does not take a lot of forms for that. So nit picking about who has what and who is allowed to do what etc, etc, is a small minded conversation at best. We should not look at our differences in a negative light, but see what there is to learn from one another. This includes disagreement as well. But as long as the good intention is there, we will all be the better for it.

As for the idea of a form being "silly" thats what most karate practitioners think of what we do anyway but that does'nt make it so.




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Sifu Carl

[This message has been edited by LawClansman (edited 08-19-2000).]

mantis boxer
08-21-2000, 12:01 PM
I'm sure you and your sifu Albright are knowledable people. I do have a question though. Why do some of your forms have northern shaolin moves and hung gar moves? Just curious. There are none of them in WHF. Is it becuase that WHF didnt' learn all the sets?>

LawClansman
08-22-2000, 05:46 AM
Mantis Boxer,
What forms do we do that you believe hung gar moves are in. To my knowledge, Wah Lum mantis is the only system of mantis that uses the Kiu Sao and other tech. normally associatiated with Hung Gar. So quite frankly, your statement/question eludes me. Both the Wong Hon Fun and Chiu Chi Man bracches have Northern Shaolin movements. In fact the Wong Hon Fun school is actually called the Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis. (school banners, Wong Hon Fun books, articles etc.)

As for the sets we do that are in the Wong Hon Fun curriculum as well, for the most part, the forms are pretty much the same with the exception on Lin Wan Gam Tao which is said to have two roads (ascending and descending). Descending (Ha Lo) has tornado kicks. Ascending (Seung Lo) does not).

Otherwise, the main difference between the two branches is the style of movement. The Chiu Chi Man flavor is more wavy and the Wong Hon Fun flavor is more abrupt. Take your pick. If people look at the two styles/versions being played, some people will want to do it the Wong Hon Fun way and others the Chiu Chi Man way. One is not superior to the other.

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Sifu Carl

Oso
08-24-2000, 03:49 PM
Sifu Carl,

This is off topic for this thread but could
you explain 'roads' as I have seen it used
a couple of times in this thread?

Thank you,
Matt Melton


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"It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier." -R.A.H

LawClansman
08-25-2000, 07:51 AM
Hi Matt,

A road (also called route) implies connection of groups of movements. This could be forms as in
First road selected boxing
second road selected boxing

In this instance this implies that the forms are connected historcally in some way. In this particular case the forms are of the same nature which is an extrapolation of essential mantis techniques.

First road Tam Toy
second road Tam Toy,

In our style there are 14 "roads" of Tam Toy
(groups of movements repeated ad nauseum)


Finally, a "road" is a term used in a form when the form turns around and changes direction. For example if you advanced foward with 15 techniques and turned around to return to the starting point, the turn would begin a new road.

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Sifu Carl

[This message has been edited by LawClansman (edited 08-25-2000).]

mantis boxer
08-25-2000, 12:26 PM
There is a move that only appears in northern shaolin. I will describe the one done in the horsestance. The left palm is facing behind and the fist is almost touching the left knee. The right fist, palm facing forward is right above the right ear.

Oso
08-25-2000, 10:22 PM
Sifu Carl,

So...are different forms grouped by their
roads? As in first road tam toy with, say,
first road bung bo? Or did I miss the point?

thanks for the answer,

Matt Melton

LawClansman
08-25-2000, 11:38 PM
Matt,

I believe you are on the right track. But not all forms are connected as in the essential fist sets or the Tam Toy. The list of forms on my site has many of the connected sets stated as first road, second road etc, or ascending and descending road. When a set has an ascending and descending road, there is an implicatation that they are both 2 parts of the same form divided for different reasons. (sifu's witholding info, or the form is too long to teach so it is broken into two sections). The ascending road is the first half/part and the descending road is the ending part.

Mantis boxer, I am afraid from your discription, I cannot figure out the move you are refering to.

"left palm is facing behind" behind meaning backward? "and the left fist is almost touching the left knee" Did the left palm turn into a fist? Right fist palm facing foward above the right ear?


Sorry, I don't know the move from that discription. Have you actually seen me or my students doing any sets? What set are you refering to bearing in mind your discription?

The ony thing I can think of with the fist by the ear is our casting punch. It is not a pose or stop but the middle of the action.

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Sifu Carl

mantis boxer
08-26-2000, 11:39 AM
Both hands are in fists. Put your right hand next to your ear about 2 '' above. Your palm would be facing in front of you but it's in a fist.
Your left fist is almost touching the knee. The arm is bent and the palm is facing behind you. Both arms are bent.

mantis7
08-26-2000, 07:23 PM
you are talking about the classical horse stance statue in shaolin temle that pose if I am not mistaken..... he is in a horse stance with righ hand near the ear with the elbow bent at a 45 degree angle.. knukle pointing towards the earand the left hanf is facing downwardbent at 45 also with knukles facing towards the knee..

I hope I am right if not I know there is a statue in shaolin temple depicting this movement.. as for the moves action I have no clue.... maybe a throw of some kind

victor

mantis boxer
08-27-2000, 01:17 AM
Yes that is the stance I am talking about. Sifu Albright, why does that move appear in your praying mantis forms? I have only seen it in northern shaolin forms.

LawClansman
08-27-2000, 03:43 AM
Mantis Boxer,

As described by Victor it is more clear, thanks for the help Vic.

The move described is usually done only in a reverse bow and arrow (hill climbing) stance that I can think of in 7 star and is done in both Wong Hon Fun and Chiu Chi Man sets. But it is not done often only in a very few forms.

I refer you to the cover of Yuen Man Gai's book (student of WHF). In this pose (as decribed by you) in the book "Northern Mantis Intercepting Boxing' this is the form Lan Jeet Kuen. (although the move does not actually appear in this form) If you say that a move "only" appears in a style, ("Northern Shaolin" is actually a blanket statement) you should have more information than you obviously have. This move is done by both lineages (WHF and CCM.) If you have not seen it in the WHF school you have simply not gotten that far in the school forms to see the forms that include it.

There are many "Northern Shaolin" type movements in 7 Star Mantis because 7 Star Mantis is based on techniques from the Honan Shaolin Temple the home of Northern Shaolin.
However, I am more curious to the Hung Gar movements you stated eariler. I really cannot think of any. I am a teacher of Hung Gar and know the system in its entirety but I NEVER mix styles. I teach each system separately.


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Sifu Carl

[This message has been edited by LawClansman (edited 08-27-2000).]

mantis boxer
08-31-2000, 06:29 PM
There are a few hung gar movements in your style. The posture is a right front stance with the arms spread out, right right hand is lined up with the right leg and the left arm is lined up with the back leg. THe right arm is at the head level and the left arm is at the left knee level. (takedown) How about that one?

NONE of the WHF forms have that northern shaolin move. If they do, which form? I've seen too many forms and I never saw that movement.

Yee Ho Society
08-31-2000, 06:39 PM
So what your saying mantis-boxer, since you haven't see it, it doesn't exist?
Sifu Albright has been in the arts for 40 years. I would think he knows what he is talking about, how long you have been a student of CMA?


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Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

mantis7
08-31-2000, 07:54 PM
Shifu

Not a problem for the assistance...Mantis boxer review your forms you may have over looked it....

Victor

mantis boxer
08-31-2000, 09:03 PM
Since I posted this message, I now have seen 28 or so of the hand sets. Do you know which form in the WHF mantis that you saw that northern shaolin move?

LawClansman
09-01-2000, 02:23 AM
Mantis Boxer,

Even Brendan Lai who is one of Wong Hon Fun's students does not know all of the sets that Wong Hon Fun knew. Do you know sets more than Mr. Lai?

Your supposed "Hung Gar" move only shows that you do not train in the Hung Gar system. The move you discribed is in Gung Lek and is in both Wong Hon Fun and Chiu Chi Man versions. A similar move appears in "Dai Faan Chi Kuen" although it is done fast and hard to catch at full speed. It is also found in many Northern Shaolin sets. We call it "split fists" The Hung Gar move that it resembles is done in a drunken style movement with the higher arm turned palm upward (fist closed) in 7 star system the fists are both pointing to the side (high and low). In Hung Gar we call it "Lohan exposes the corpse"
If you want to read into something than you can. Hung gar and mantis both have: Palm strikes, front kicks, reverse punches, horse stance punches, face washing blocks, reverse bent wrist strikes (mantis wrist/ back of crane's beak) etc etc etc. I could give a long list indeed of techniques found in both styles. But the things that make Hung Gar unique are not found in mantis. (kiu sao, dynamic tension bridgeing motions, yelling various sounds: dik, wah, sit, 10 tiger claw continuous boxing etc etc etc)

As for the Northern Shaolin movement, as I stated before, this move is NOT IN MY SETS. What part of that did you not understand? I can't explain something that does not exist. You stated "in my forms" what forms? Not Bung Bo, Sup Baat Sao, Chaap Choy, Se Lo Bun Da, Tong Long Chut Tong, Tong Long Tiao Tow, Yat Lo Jak Yiu Kuen. The closest thing to that movement is in a reverse bow and arrow stance as I stated. And as I stated it appears very rarely. Your statement sounds as if it is a common movement in my forms.

Wong Hon Fun's student is doing the pose on the cover of his book. WONG HON FUN'S STUDENT YEUN MAN GAI.
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/lawclansman/tmp000.jpg
If it is not in the system, why is he doing it? I am not a Wong Hon Fun disciple. I really can't tell you why they do what they do or do not. All I can tell you is that my sets come from Chiu Leun/ chiu chi man / Law Gwong Yuk / Fan Yuk Tong etc and while you have seen 28 forms, I have seen 90.

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Sifu Carl

[This message has been edited by LawClansman (edited 09-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LawClansman (edited 09-01-2000).]

LawClansman
09-01-2000, 06:29 AM
Mantis Boxer,

I realize that my last post my come off as harsh but I would like to clarify something. I don't mind questions. I don't mind debating and I don't even mind arguing. But I don't like going around in circles. You are making statements without addressing my previous posts.
But don't be put off from asking questions about the system I teach. That is not my intention.

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Sifu Carl

[This message has been edited by LawClansman (edited 09-01-2000).]

MagicMantis
09-01-2000, 10:19 AM
Hi,

I think the picture of the bookcover URL is actually at:
http://members.xoom.com/lawclansman/tmp000.jpg

Neil Alexander
MagicMantis@Conjuror.com

LawClansman
09-01-2000, 08:25 PM
Thanks Neil

If there is a problem seeing the link go to my web site

http://www.7starmantis.com
and click on links to old lessons.

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Sifu Carl

RochSevenStarMantis
09-01-2000, 08:43 PM
There is a PIC in Master Lee Kam Wings Book (page 138) Tiger-Striking Fist, sounds very similar to what you are describing? Maybe I'm out in left field, check it out and please post reply.
RochsevenStarMantis
Sifu Carl,
I would be interested in some more of Wong Hon Fun's Books, if you can get a hold of them. I will meet up with you while in NYC. Please contact me direct, and let me know if you are able to get them if it is not to much trouble.
Roch7StarMantis@AOL.com
Thanks,
RochSevenStarMantis

[This message has been edited by RochSevenStarMantis (edited 09-02-2000).]

LawClansman
09-02-2000, 04:39 AM
Rochsevenstarmantis,

Thats the move as we do it. but it is only in a few forms, mainly higher ones like Siu Fu Ngan. email me as to the time frame in which we have to get together. I can show you where the store are and you can check them in the future when in town. My Sifu is back from China so we will try to coordinate some kind of get together.

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Sifu Carl

RochSevenStarMantis
09-02-2000, 05:32 AM
Sifu Carl,
Thats the form that I was referring to (Si Fu Yan Kuen), I have not seen it in any others other than "Juey Lo Han".
I know that we will be going to Chinatown Friday afternoon before the Demo. And I believe they are planning a dinner also with you and Chu Leun, I have not heard what day yet.
Appreciate your help,
Rochsevenstarmantis

LawClansman
09-02-2000, 09:05 PM
Rochsevenstarmantis,
I completely forgot. There is a picture of Wong Hon Fun himself doing the pose/ movement in the Joy Lo Hon book. Thanks for reminding me.

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Sifu Carl

mantis boxer
09-05-2000, 08:10 AM
I looked at the link and that is NOT the move that I am talking about. The left hand would be above the knee. It's done in a horestance, crane stance or cat stance but never that stance. That is a different move. It's nice that you've seen 90 but the WHF version does not have 90. It has about 30. Kung Lik Kuen is not a praying mantis form but a Jing Wu basic form. It's from northern shaolin. Now someone is going to post and say it's not " shaolin" blah blah

loki
09-05-2000, 02:21 PM
Why don't you tell us then in which form you have seen this particular move done?

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NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

mantis7
09-05-2000, 08:07 PM
Was sup all...

Quote
Kung Lik Kuen is not a praying mantis form but a Jing Wu basic form. It's from northern shaolin. Now someone is going to post and say it's not " shaolin" blah blah

Well you right in that it is a jing wu form... but it was let into mantis by Low kwan yu if I am not mistake when he was in the jing wu.. Wasnt this the time where eagle claw was introduced into mantis.. I may have my storeis mixed up again but hey what do I know..

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I looked at the link and that is NOT the move that I am talking about. The left hand would be above the knee. It's done in a horestance, crane stance or cat stance but never that stance.

Just because you have seen the move in a cat and the Ma bu doesnt mean the move can not be performed in a snake drop stane or reverse bow or any stance.. I can clearly see that is the same move but then again what do I know.....

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It's nice that you've seen 90 but the WHF version does not have 90. It has about 30

I have a question have you learned all the forms WHF version has to offer.. also have you been to Main land china. I think this is the only place that people argue over how many forms your system has. In other parts of the world people are like "" cool is that a mantis form....They check it out to see if it is useful and share it with each other..."" Next you will be saying that tachi mantis, flat board mantis , 8 step or what ever has to many forms or that Yanti mantis isnt traditional or doesnt exsist because it contains shoalin forms..

UMMMMMMMMM remeber that MANTIS did originate from shaolin and is based on several shoalin fist styles... but god for bid it contains any of the basic fist sets that made shoalin famous lol..

sorry to sound so cynical but I think Mantis boxer is just trolling .. I feel he doesnt want to know the truth just stir up more problem between the WHF and CCM families but like I always say this is just my opinions...

Victor

[This message has been edited by mantis7 (edited 09-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by mantis7 (edited 09-06-2000).]

LawClansman
09-05-2000, 10:44 PM
Mantis Boxer,

I already said that I don't have the move in a Horse stance either, so what is your point? And how can you claim to have seen me do this (or my students) when it is rare to see us in public. And at the school, all but 2 of my students are not very advanced. And as to
Gung Lek, it is a form practiced by the Wong Hon Fun side of mantis so the split fists exists in the style. Besides, Gung Lek has been "mantisized" and is not played in the original order/version taught at the Jing Mo.

It is too bad that so many people on the board wish to remain anonymous. I think that if you say something, you should stand behind it.

Nevertheless, Mantis boxer, your original questions were answered. There is no such shaolin move practiced by me in the mantis system as I teach it. And the split fists are a regular northern style movement, so my branch of mantis gets the move from it's connection with the Jing Mo/ Northern Shaolin.

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Sifu Carl

Yee Ho Society
09-06-2000, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mantis boxer:
I looked at the link and that is NOT the move that I am talking about. The left hand would be above the knee. It's done in a horestance, crane stance or cat stance but never that stance. That is a different move. It's nice that you've seen 90 but the WHF version does not have 90. It has about 30. Kung Lik Kuen is not a praying mantis form but a Jing Wu basic form. It's from northern shaolin. Now someone is going to post and say it's not " shaolin" blah blah[/quote]

It seems that Mantis Boxer has a major chip on his shoulder. What is the problem MB? What is the true purpose of this line of questioning?
Looks to me you are trying to start something that I think you will not be able to finish.
WHF or CCM? does it really matter? Even Sifu Albright stated that one is no better than the other.
If you have something to say, be man enough to say what you mean instead of hiding behind some obscure questioning

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Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is left in yours?

RAYNYSC
09-06-2000, 09:16 AM
Well MB all I can say is I give Sifu Albright two thumbs up on his last reply addressed to you... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PEACE /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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RAYNYSC

[This message has been edited by RAYNYSC (edited 09-07-2000).]

Gojira
09-11-2000, 08:15 PM
Is it just me, or doen anyone ever notice that when most people on this forum are asked a direct question it seems that that is the exact time the person being asked has selectice memory loss or the computer they are using happens to go on the lam.
I don't know......Hey M.B. car to answer Y.H.S. question in a intellegent manner?

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If you have nothing to do, don't do it here!

Young Mantis
09-12-2000, 12:47 AM
Mantis Boxer,

I study the WHF lineage and have been doing so for about 14 years. I have learnt and practice 24 of the WHF forms thus far.

I am neither picking a side nor validating anyone else's post but I want to share my thoughts. I do not understand your line of questioning nor do I understand your animosity towards Northern Shaolin. Praying Mantis was born from Shaolin. The majority of the other 17 styles were Shaolin or Shaolin based. Wong Long trained in Shaolin, took what he felt was the best techniques and created the Praying Mantis system, taught PM to Shaolin and we can proudly say was the highest level style taught at Shaolin. Why are you so bent on making a distinction for some techniques?

To call Gung Lek Kuen not part of NPM is true and false. You are right, it is not a true Mantis form nor does it have any of the unique mantis techniques or strategies. You are right it is originally a Northern Shaolin form brought to Jing Mo by Master Chiu Lin Wor and adopted by many of the other styles. But it was Master Law Gwong Yuk that decided to adopt this form along with a few others. If you choose not to learn or practice it, it is your choice and quite frankly that is fine because it is a very basic form. Nevertheless, it was part of his and WHF's curriculum. I think to discredit it is disrespectful of their decision to include it.

It is hard to make the argument that a form is not an original Mantis form. That argument would depend on which generation you want to start counting from. It is said that JoSi Wong Long created three forms: Bung Bo, Lahn Dzeet, and Baht Dzao. Then are the other 27 forms in our system not true PM forms?

I think there are other factors to look at. All PM forms have distinguishing characteristics. Techniques should link together, they should alternate between high and low, left and right. There should be conditioning throughout the form. They are well thought out and designed. If the forms follow these guidelines, then I can call them Praying Mantis forms.

Now I do believe in tradition. I think the forms as it stands now presents all the information you will ever need to know. Anyone can put a form together. I can, you can even with the 10 forms you have learned already. It is not difficult to take a section from one and mix it with another. But each form was designed for a reason, to teach a praticular theory, to practice a particular technique in various situations. Each form has a distinct flavor. I do not see a reason to create new forms although modification is acceptable and has happened throughout the history of the style. By modification, I mean a change from fist to palm, seven star stance to bow stance. These are all based on application and personal preference.

But getting back to your subject, do not reject the Northern Shaolin roots. It is not necessary to compare one lineage with another. They are different from us and we from them. Some of the forms are almost identical. Concentrate on your studies and don't worry about what the other people are doing.

Sorry for the long winded post, I kind of got carried away.

Mantis Boxer, if you wish to discus the WHF forms some more, email me.

mantis boxer
10-06-2000, 03:24 AM
Albright,

The northern shaolin move that I have been talking about has the left hand ABOVE the knee. Whether it's in a horse stance, crane or cat stance- it's always above the knee. The picture on that book is below the knee. That pose is from 4 directional attack. Also your forms have CLF looking uppercuts. Why is that?

LawClansman
10-06-2000, 05:55 AM
Mantis Boxer,

It is obvious at this point you have me confused with someone else. Please don't waste my time with a false line of questioning (actually statements)which pertain to someone else. If you want to know something about Seven Star Mantis you can ask of course.

Sifu Carl

[This message was edited by LawClansman on 10-06-00 at 11:02 PM.]

loki
10-06-2000, 10:30 PM
CLF uppercuts?! LOL!!! This proves you definitely have no idea what you are talking about. You must be mistaking our school with someone else's. Hey, you can always pay us a visit. Our school is listed . Maybe you can personally show us what it is you are talking about cause honestly, we don't have a clue. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

mantis boxer
10-07-2000, 12:56 AM
You guys have uppercuts that have the other hand behind the back trailing. This along with the northern shaolin move makes your mantis weird.

loki
10-07-2000, 02:19 AM
At this point I really don't know why I'm even bothering to answer as this is going nowhere but may I ask where are you getting all this stuff from ? Have you actually seen anyone from Sifu Albright's school ( Lawclan Martial Arts Association) or Sifu himself doing the forms with the moves you describe? Maybe somebody is giving you bad information? Or maybe you are just making stuff up because of your own personal biases?

Sifu has answered your previous questions concerning these bogus techniques you say "we" do. You don't even bother addressing what he's saying. Instead you jump to antother question. He has already told you the moves you mention are not in our forms.

As to forms containing Northern Shaoiln techniques well, that is a mute point. This was already addressed but in case you forgot, all of the northern mantis branches come from the same root and that is the Northen Shaolin temple. Would you not think that mantis would contain some Northern Shaolin moves?

Our mantis looks weird? Different flavor than most maybe but weird? That is a first. Anyone that has ever seen our forms played properly has never said anything negative about them.

Like I said before , please feel free to drop by our school if you ever get the chance and we would be more than happy to clarify for you anything you like in person. Just please stop being so petty and trivial on this board as I am sure the members here would like to be reading more useful and interesting threads than this one.

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

LawClansman
10-07-2000, 05:41 AM
Mantis boxer,

This is the last thing I have to say on the subject. First of all it's not "my" mantis. It is the mantis that was handed down from CCM to CL to me. It is also the mantis handed down fron the monks of Yip Ming Duk temple in China to CL to me.
Before you judge me, let me refresh your memory,


1. I have 40 years in Mantis as well as other CMA

2. I spent 12 years in Asia mostly China and HK but also Korea, Japan, Bangkok, Taiwan, Hawaii and Vietnam. Researching the martial arts.

3. I have trained with some of the more well known masters of the arts.

4. I am the undefeated full contact bare knuckle champion for 10 years straight (1975-1985). U.S. and Asia.
5. I was Muhammed Ali's sparring partner in Korea in the seventies.

6. I have been teaching since 1968 and toured with Aaron Banks and the Oriental World of Self Defense for years including the 1969 Long Beach demo that Bruce lee made famous.

7. I Have won over 200 trophies in Forms, Weapons, Fighting, Breaking and Self Defense. And my students have made their own mark in tournament circles. Probably before you even started.

8. I have been working for the last 12 years in the New York City Transit subway system on the graveyard shift. I have taken over a hundred weapons from perps during that time. I deal with street gangs, muggers, rapists, crack fiends, mentally unstable homeless, razor carrying slit and run gangs. This is MY reality EVERYDAY. Right now. No tournaments. No gloves. No rules. And there have been newspaper articles about it so it is documented. (My favorite article was "Kung Fu Motorman Keeps The Bad Guys In Line") So I have to be on point on a daily basis because I never know when something is going to jump off. And I NEVER look the other way. And I'm no cop. I carry no weapons. Just my knowledge and experience.

I don't mean to toot my own horn here but YOU quention ME? You need to wake up and smell the herbal tea. Empty your cup and stop listening to false information. Like Loki said come to the school and see FOR YOURSELF what we do. Stop making up stuff and trolling and join a real school.

So, what's really WEIRD here is that you waste your time and mine with unproductive posts. I hope you can (finally) realize this

Sifu Carl