you and your horse stance

[uki]

it is said that the horse is the foundation of training... some people refer to it as being a free chair, someone i know juggles iron balls in horse stance to help tighten and condition the structure... i was wondering how people incorporate their horse stance into their daily lives... the other day we were all meditating on the job site after we got to a part of the wall that need to be stuccoed and all the available scaffold building materials were being used...

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/workfu.jpg

aside from taking a poop, does anyone else have any creative horse stance stories to share?? :D

p.s. i do realize i am on a slightly crooked high horse here. :p

[taai gihk yahn]

very nice

they must LOVE u at work:

"Hey guys, we have to get these wheelbarrows full of bricks across this 6' wide ravine, but we don't have anything long or wide enough to lay across the gap; anybody got any ideas what we could use?"

[uki]

pushing wheelbarrows is an awesome workout... bridging the body might work with one full of bricks if a wood road were thrown down first... they definitely love me at work - i told the boss he needs to get in the pictures so we can send them to his insurance company. seriously though, i do have some job security - guy's there 18 years are getting sent home for the day while i and my dragon friend get all the hours... it's all about that work ethnic. :D

[uki]

punching the ground while in horse... awesome.

[Dragonzbane76]

doing it wrong straighten you back...:):D

[uki]

doing it wrong straighten you back...then my friend would have spilled over and off into the newly pardged wall... adaptability creates tenacity. :)

[IronFist]

pushing wheelbarrows is an awesome workout... bridging the body might work with one full of bricks if a wood road were thrown down first... they definitely love me at work - i told the boss he needs to get in the pictures so we can send them to his insurance company. seriously though, i do have some job security - guy's there 18 years are getting sent home for the day while i and my dragon friend get all the hours... it's all about that work ethnic. :D


Why you gotta make it about race? :p

[uki]

Why you gotta make it about race?LOL... well i do work just as hard if not harder than the mexican immigrants... american redneck construction workers that ***** about the mexicans taking all the jobs have to stop and wonder if it's because they are all overweight, high-heeled boot wearing, cigarette smoking, toothless slugs that would rather bark orders and look important talking on their cellphones, rather than actually doing any work for themselves. :D

[Chief_Suicide]

... it is not near as glamorous, but I sit/practice horse stance when I do the dishes. I think it's good practice and makes brownie points with the wife.

I'm a rookie though, the best I've ever done is 17 minutes. We have to be able to sit in horse stance for X amount of minutes for each rank, so I figure I might as well get good at it.

[bawang]

very nice 17 minutes is a long time good job man u r good. try doing it with with weights its great for stance tranings

[sanjuro_ronin]

... it is not near as glamorous, but I sit/practice horse stance when I do the dishes. I think it's good practice and makes brownie points with the wife.

I'm a rookie though, the best I've ever done is 17 minutes. We have to be able to sit in horse stance for X amount of minutes for each rank, so I figure I might as well get good at it.

Why ???
:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

does it in heels !
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc22/jwideman/Girls/Vette_Babes.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/leg-exercises-tb-sumo-squat-2.jpg

[Lucas]

in a previous life we would do horse stance for X time during testing. It wasnt for seeing how long you could do your stance, or being able to do the stance for a certain time frame.

the reasoning behind the long standing during testing (for us), for better or worse, is to push yourself to the limit, then pass it on will power alone. each person would only stop standing when sifu noticed they achieved what he was looking for, so for every person the time frame was different, he would silently rest a hand on your shoulder, and that was heaven, lol. my longest standing was 45 minutes. no way i can do that now.....

you can do this many different ways, i think our teacher used ma bu simply because during his coming up, he was subjected to severe long term standing on a daily basis. temple training.....we had it easy.

[bawang]

http://www.gaopu.com/g/isicyuukou.jpg

[uki]

nothing like iron ball juggling in horse...

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/111019.jpg

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/111024.jpg

:)

[Chief_Suicide]

At our school there are a whole bunch of things they test on. The higher the rank the more they test on.

There are warm ups, then ma bu stance testing, then doing all the moves you've learned. There are some torture things, like doing every kick and routine/combination 25 times per side (right/left). After it is all done they have us spar to see if we can take care of ourselves in a fight, and use some of the techniques we've learned.

Starting with the second sash/belt we start doing the ma bu stance. 5 minutes, then 10 for the next sash, then 15, then 30 minutes, 45, and then the last is 1 hour I think. Considering I can barely get past 15 minutes, I can't imagine sitting in the horse stance for an hour.

I don't suppose sitting in horse stance will make be a better fighter, but like the challenge of will. It takes a certain amount of fortitude to do it, and it hurts. Like it was mentioned earlier, it is partly a mental game. I like the test.

Did I mention I'll be 40 in a couple of years? I guess a lot of this is just to prove I can still do it. Juvenile maybe, but It makes me feel better the longer I can pull this stuff off.

[Oso]

your ass is too low in the pole sitting/juggling...and your're leaning forward...just saying.

[uki]

your ass is too low in the pole sitting/juggling...and your're leaning forward...just saying.ya i know... i like this sunken horse when juggling on poles because it works the muscles differently when you are hanging your arms and juggling at or below ones foot level... leaning back and forward, likewise changes the muscles a bit. :)

[jdhowland]

does it in heels !
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc22/jwideman/Girls/Vette_Babes.jpg

A little critique here: She is not doing ma bu. Her hips are lower than her knees and her heels are raised. She is merely squatting. Try a five minute horse stance wearing cowboy boots, (or Mongolian wrestling boots, for that matter). Then try it in flat soled Chinese shoes.

I used to be impressed by how my sifu could stand in ma bu with a perfectly vertical spine and make it seem effortless. Then I realized that he was wearing his standard "Beatle boots" when he did it. We students were wearing the kung fu boots made from Japanese car tires and velvet flocked canvas. I went home and tried it wearing dress shoes and I was instantly a great master of the skill.

[jdhowland]

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/leg-exercises-tb-sumo-squat-2.jpg

Now this is better but her toes are pointed outward. She's not training the lower legs. She needs to drop the weight and rest a heavy barbell on her thighs. Or a cup of hot tea.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Someone please explain the reason for this type of stance. I use what I have always called a horse stance, but it is not as deep or wide. It seems to me that one would have to climb up out of it to be able to move about. It also seems to me that it should be comfortable to make it easier to move in. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Dragonzbane76]

conditioning stance... you don't fight out of that.

[Lucas]

and punishment. you mis behave and give a eyelid full of reason you do low standing till you die ten thousand deaths from it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Doing a horse stance gets you really good at doing a horse stance.

[Lucas]

thats what happens when u poop standing up....some guys probably NEED a 20 -30 minute horse stance just to take care of business ;)

[jmd161]

Doing a horse stance gets you really good at doing a horse stance.


That's the problem because most people believe that! I'm not going to go into much detail but we are required to hold a horse stance for an hr when starting Black Tiger. It's funny when I see people who say by black sash/belt they have to be able to hold a 10 min horse stance.:D

By the second wk of training we're at a 10 min horse stance. I can list all the reasons why we do the hr (actually my sifu has cut it down to 30 mins for newbies) but, why waste my time? Everyone and their momma s going to say you don't need to do horse that long and why you don't need to.

Problem is the people saying this have never done it and have no idea if there is a difference or not... They're just spouting off about something "they" believe although "they've" never tested it.

All I can say is try it what do you have to lose?

You'd at least get more leg endurance at worst you loose a few minute's a day...

I will say this one thing try a side kick now and another after training and holding a horse for just 20 mins a day and tell me if there's a difference....

[jmd161]

In all the pictures you've posted you stand a chance of hurting yourself and your structure is not right in any of them. It seems you tend to lean forward in your horse your knee's should be aligned over your toe's not with your feet turned outward. It's not about how low you can go it's about a proper horse stance!

It doesn't sound like much of a difference but a slight adjustment makes a world of difference in a proper horse stance. We've had people come to train with us that say they can hold a horse for 30 mins with no problems. It takes about 30 seconds after my sifu adjusts them before their legs start shaking uncontrollably...

Most people don't do a horse stance properly so, they never get the benefits of the proper horse stance. Again, all I'm going to say if you do it correctly you'll notice the difference and you'll see and feel the benefits!;)

[uki]

In all the pictures you've posted you stand a chance of hurting yourself and your structure is not right in any of them. It seems you tend to lean forward in your horse your knee's should be aligned over your toe's not with your feet turned outward. It's not about how low you can go it's about a proper horse stance! yeah i should have called it juggling in frog... LOL... seriously, i am leaning and sinking on purpose for the iron ball juggling...

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's the problem because most people believe that! I'm not going to go into much detail but we are required to hold a horse stance for an hr when starting Black Tiger. It's funny when I see people who say by black sash/belt they have to be able to hold a 10 min horse stance.:D

By the second wk of training we're at a 10 min horse stance. I can list all the reasons why we do the hr (actually my sifu has cut it down to 30 mins for newbies) but, why waste my time? Everyone and their momma s going to say you don't need to do horse that long and why you don't need to.

Problem is the people saying this have never done it and have no idea if there is a difference or not... They're just spouting off about something "they" believe although "they've" never tested it.

All I can say is try it what do you have to lose?

You'd at least get more leg endurance at worst you loose a few minute's a day...

I will say this one thing try a side kick now and another after training and holding a horse for just 20 mins a day and tell me if there's a difference....

Static training does very little for dynamic force, sorry.
I used to do horse stance training all the time, 30 min was the standard.
If I want to develop my side kick, guess what I will do?
Side kick.
Best side kicks in the world are from TKD guys, they rarely do ANY stance training.

Let me ask you this, if you were stuck under a car and you had to choose between two guys, one that trained horse stance for an hour and another that squatted 500lbs for fun, who would you want saving your ass?

Horse stance training has its value, but lets keep it in perspective shall we.

[Oso]

man...is this conversation really happening?

[sanjuro_ronin]

man...is this conversation really happening?

To be honest, MANY people still are not aware of the "law" of specificity as it relates to physical activities.

[PlumDragon]

Doing a horse stance gets you really good at doing a horse stance.QFT!!!



All I can say is try it what do you have to lose?A large number of hours that could have been spent producing actual skill. Id bet most of us here have been there done that. I know I have, and I wish I had spent those hours and energy training something in context...

[jmd161]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
Doing a horse stance gets you really good at doing a horse stance.



QFT!!!


A large number of hours that could have been spent producing actual skill. Id bet most of us here have been there done that. I know I have, and I wish I had spent those hours and energy training something in context...

Like I stated before i'm not going to get into a discussion/debate about this... If you feel it did nothing for you fine!

I tend to disagree...

that's all that's being said.

[Frost]

That's the problem because most people believe that! I'm not going to go into much detail but we are required to hold a horse stance for an hr when starting Black Tiger. It's funny when I see people who say by black sash/belt they have to be able to hold a 10 min horse stance.:D

By the second wk of training we're at a 10 min horse stance. I can list all the reasons why we do the hr (actually my sifu has cut it down to 30 mins for newbies) but, why waste my time? Everyone and their momma s going to say you don't need to do horse that long and why you don't need to.

Problem is the people saying this have never done it and have no idea if there is a difference or not... They're just spouting off about something "they" believe although "they've" never tested it.

All I can say is try it what do you have to lose?

You'd at least get more leg endurance at worst you loose a few minute's a day...

I will say this one thing try a side kick now and another after training and holding a horse for just 20 mins a day and tell me if there's a difference....

your teacher really saw you coming didnt he

[Frost]

Static training does very little for dynamic force, sorry.
I used to do horse stance training all the time, 30 min was the standard.
If I want to develop my side kick, guess what I will do?
Side kick.
Best side kicks in the world are from TKD guys, they rarely do ANY stance training.

Let me ask you this, if you were stuck under a car and you had to choose between two guys, one that trained horse stance for an hour and another that squatted 500lbs for fun, who would you want saving your ass?

Horse stance training has its value, but lets keep it in perspective shall we.

would you stop being so correct all the time its getting boring round here

[Frost]

Like I stated before i'm not going to get into a discussion/debate about this... If you feel it did nothing for you fine!

I tend to disagree...

that's all that's being said.

yep its silly getting into a debate on the internet...especially one where you dont have a leg to stand on :D

[jmd161]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin
Doing a horse stance gets you really good at doing a horse stance.


I've heard many people say this over the yrs. And not 1 ever demonstrated a proper horse stance...:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've heard many people say this over the yrs. And not 1 ever demonstrated a proper horse stance...:confused:

Well, if you think that years of Hung Kuen, Kyokushin and Judo means I don't know what a horse stance is, well, you may be right, you mat also be wrong.
But lets put personal views aside and focus on evidence that CAN'T be refuted:

YOu mentioned side kick so I ask you, who do you think well have the better ( faster and more powerful) side kick:
Subject A) Does kicking for 10 min in the air and does 60 min of stance work.
Subject b) Does 10 min of kicking the air, 20 min of kicking the bag, 10 min of pad work, 20 min of sparring with kicks and NO stance work.

[jmd161]

Well, if you think that years of Hung Kuen, Kyokushin and Judo means I don't know what a horse stance is, well, you may be right, you mat also be wrong.
But lets put personal views aside and focus on evidence that CAN'T be refuted:

YOu mentioned side kick so I ask you, who do you think well have the better ( faster and more powerful) side kick:
Subject A) Does kicking for 10 min in the air and does 60 min of stance work.
Subject b) Does 10 min of kicking the air, 20 min of kicking the bag, 10 min of pad work, 20 min of sparring with kicks and NO stance work.

You may very well know what a horse stance is, I never said "YOU" didn't. I said I've heard many people say what you said about horse stance and, to date none have demonstrated a proper horse.

I only mentioned the side kick as a simple test... It's not what I'm basing my argument on.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You may very well know what a horse stance is, I never said "YOU" didn't. I said I've heard many people say what you said about horse stance and, to date none have demonstrated a proper horse.

I only mentioned the side kick as a simple test... It's not what I'm basing my argument on.

I understand that, and like I said, stance training serves a purpose, one of them goes beyond the physical as trying to hold a stance for a prolonged period of time goes way beyond the physical.
That does not change the PHYSICAL facts of what stance training achieves though, that's all.
It has limitations and was no designed to improve any technique other than stances.
It will not improve ANY technqiue NOT related to that particular stances, not directly anyways.

[Sardinkahnikov]

I understand that, and like I said, stance training serves a purpose, one of them goes beyond the physical as trying to hold a stance for a prolonged period of time goes way beyond the physical.
That does not change the PHYSICAL facts of what stance training achieves though, that's all.
It has limitations and was no designed to improve any technique other than stances.
It will not improve ANY technqiue NOT related to that particular stances, not directly anyways.

Our stance training was never really stactic per se. It was usually coupled with either chi kung or sinking/raising on the stance and/or weight redistribution. It's was pretty hard to perform :(

[Chief_Suicide]

Let me ask you this, if you were stuck under a car and you had to choose between two guys, one that trained horse stance for an hour and another that squatted 500lbs for fun, who would you want saving your ass?



Am I the only one that thinks that either of these options is a poor one? How about a tow truck, or some EMT/firemen with the jaws of life. People who squat 500lbs or horse stance trainers aren't on my speed dial.

I've never heard that horse stance training makes for a better side kick.

I wanted myself and my children to train in Kung Fu. The only place close enough for myself and my kids to go on a regular basis is the school I attend.
This school has horse stance requirements (one of many requirements) for each sash/belt levels. If I want to train Kung Fu at a decent place, close to my home, this is the only place to train. How I feel about horse stance, or whether it helps me is irrelevant. There is definitely a mental and physical aspect to it and I like the challenge.

I don't suppose I'm going to be the best fighter because of my horse stance, but then again, my teacher never said I would be the best because of my horse stance.

My two cents.

[uki]

I've heard many people say this over the yrs. And not 1 ever demonstrated a proper horse stance...what is proper?? tenacity comes from adaptability - adaptable people are tenacious and thus are never in an "improper" position. :)

[uki]

man...is this conversation really happening?amazing isn't it??

[Drake]

Believe it or not, there are areas of discussion where everybody isn't right, and it's all based on perception.

Really... there IS a proper way of doing a horse stance (say ping mah). Improper technique could eventually cause injury at the worst and poor form at the best.

The only thing I agree with Uki on is if you are ferocious, you'll win a lot of regular fights. However, ferocity does eventually hit a brick wall when you start going against people with some real skill.

That person will put you and all your fierceness into a little ball and kick you both around the room. I learned this many years ago as young, fierce, arrogant lad who was also put into a little ball and kicked around a field.

[KC Elbows]

There is plenty of disagreement between styles in China about what is the proper horse stance. Some do toes out, some straight forward, some natural, but my experience is they each do so for their reasons.

Arguing what is correct when there are different schools of thought and different goals in training gets nowhere.

That said, I tend to think of horsestance as in between other things. You're working your most disadvantageous point: you don't have the ability to drop, rising is all you can do easily and you're trying not to, but for some it opens up the hips in a way stretching doesn't(for them).

That said, don't do much static stuff.

[Drake]

There is plenty of disagreement between styles in China about what is the proper horse stance. Some do toes out, some straight forward, some natural, but my experience is they each do so for their reasons.

Arguing what is correct when there are different schools of thought and different goals in training gets nowhere.

That said, I tend to think of horsestance as in between other things. You're working your most disadvantageous point: you don't have the ability to drop, rising is all you can do easily and you're trying not to, but for some it opens up the hips in a way stretching doesn't(for them).

That said, don't do much static stuff.

Allow me to correct myself. There are correct WAYS to do the horse stance, and there are INCORRECT ways of doing them.

[Lucas]

I will not allow it!!! :p

[KC Elbows]

Allow me to correct myself. There are correct WAYS to do the horse stance, and there are INCORRECT ways of doing them.

No, once you say it on the internet, there are no retractions!

I get what you're saying.

[Oso]

To be honest, MANY people still are not aware of the "law" of specificity as it relates to physical activities.

what you said

;)


but, it also means they have a lack of web fu...especially KFM web fu...search it *****es.

[SevenStar]

Someone please explain the reason for this type of stance. I use what I have always called a horse stance, but it is not as deep or wide. It seems to me that one would have to climb up out of it to be able to move about. It also seems to me that it should be comfortable to make it easier to move in. Just my thoughts on the matter.

it builds muscle endurance.

[SevenStar]

Now this is better but her toes are pointed outward. She's not training the lower legs. She needs to drop the weight and rest a heavy barbell on her thighs. Or a cup of hot tea.



some schools perform the horse with the toes outward. Less strain on the knee. I would imagine that a barbell on the quads would be engaging her hips more, but not necessarily making her lower legs work any harder.

[Lucas]

it has returned!!!!

here is an example of horse standing.

http://www.his.state.mt.us/research/photo/images/camer_lg.jpg

[SevenStar]

Static training does very little for dynamic force, sorry.
I used to do horse stance training all the time, 30 min was the standard.
If I want to develop my side kick, guess what I will do?
Side kick.
Best side kicks in the world are from TKD guys, they rarely do ANY stance training.

Let me ask you this, if you were stuck under a car and you had to choose between two guys, one that trained horse stance for an hour and another that squatted 500lbs for fun, who would you want saving your ass?

Horse stance training has its value, but lets keep it in perspective shall we.

yeah, this holds true. You may be able to assume that since the long horse builds endurance, that the long horse would enable you to throw side kicks repeatedly without tiring. This sort of training will only increase strength if your legs were pretty weak to begin with, i.e. some noobs.

but jmd, you know I like these discussions, so I would actually be interested in hearing every reason you have.

[SevenStar]

man...is this conversation really happening?

LMAO, i've been gone from this forum for two years, and when I come back, it's just like old times...we are even still having the same debates!

[jmd161]

some schools perform the horse with the toes outward. Less strain on the knee.

I have trained horse stance with the feet outward and with the feet pointing forward and knee's aligned directly over toes. I'd agree that the feet slightly outward is much easier on the knee's but, if you're taking your time and your alignment is right you should not experience any knee pain from the latter. I have seen much more stylist with knee problems from doing horse with feet slightly outward than from those with feet facing forward.

IMO, that comes from people trying to go too low which is not good for you in either case.


I will add this from my personal experience...

I've dislocated my knee cap twice and had surgery to try and prevent it from happening again. For yrs after my surgery due to my own stupidity of not rehabilitating the knee... the knee would just go out on me from time to time without warning. At this time I was training horse stance with feet slightly out. Over the yrs and especially during cold and damp weather the knee would bother me so bad that I walked with a noticeable limp for yrs.

Upon changing styles and learning to do horse with feet forward and knee's aligned... I no longer have any knee pain no matter the weather conditions nor do I limp while walking anymore. I have also noticed that I no longer have pain in my other leg... I had come to notice for yrs do to the pain and limping I was putting much more stress on my other leg. Now my surgically repaired knee actually feels stronger than my other knee. I won't say feet forward is better than slightly out but, it made a difference for me! I think that has a lot to do with my sifu though... He's a stickler for perfection so, he was always tweaking my stance for perfect alignment.

[goju]

Now this is better but her toes are pointed outward. She's not training the lower legs. She needs to drop the weight and rest a heavy barbell on her thighs. Or a cup of hot tea.

some horse stances have you point your toes out

http://img.youtube.com/vi/vKLX3tZN1JQ/0.jpg

http://www.japanesegojuryukaratedo.com/grcontent/sheiko-dachi.jpg

[Drake]

Why does everyone only talk about the horse stance? Diu ma? Lau ma? etc etc?

[Drake]

Like dis...

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_jong.jpg

[jmd161]

Like dis...

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_jong.jpg

Hmmm,

I guess most would say the same about a horse stance but, that stance is not very practical IMO. There are a few occasions while executing a technique to where dropping into horse stance is practical. You don't have a solid foundation/base in that stance and can be off balanced easily among other things.

[Oso]

LMAO, i've been gone from this forum for two years, and when I come back, it's just like old times...we are even still having the same debates!

well, 'we' are not...

stupid, stupid, stupid...what stance training is 'today' is a basic bodyweight exercise for the slabs that come in off the street. it will build their strength and endurance and i suppose can be a test of 'dedication' if nothing else. i suppose, most probably, it was the same 'way back when' when men were men and chinese men were kinda small and weak (generally speaking of course)


...i guess 'we' are...

[jdhowland]

some horse stances have you point your toes out

http://img.youtube.com/vi/vKLX3tZN1JQ/0.jpg

http://www.japanesegojuryukaratedo.com/grcontent/sheiko-dachi.jpg

True. But that's shiko dachi, isn't it? From sumo. I've never seen it in Chinese arts. Some northern styles do that to a lesser degree.

I only wished to point out that ma bu can be used in ways which offer more development than the ability to hold the thighs parallel to the floor. I believe it strengthens connective tissues. I'm 56 years old and I still train with it even though it is not greatly emphasized in my system. We use high, narrow stances for training technique. But I think there's something to be gained from the standard basics, such as learning how to make the bones and connective tissues support your mass without excessive strain on the ligaments. Ma bu helps to train correct position of the knees and ankles.

[YouKnowWho]

some horse stances have you point your toes out

http://img.youtube.com/vi/vKLX3tZN1JQ/0.jpg

http://www.japanesegojuryukaratedo.com/grcontent/sheiko-dachi.jpg

I have seen a CMA demo in Ohio. The teacher had 20 students on the stage. Each student all had different horse stance. Some were narrow, some were wide, some were parallel, some pointed in, and some pointed out. Are they all correct?

If you touch your feet together, your balance is weak. When you move your feet apart, your balance will get better. When you have reached to a point that if you keep moving your feet apart, your balance will get worse.

If you have your toes all point inward, you will have poor balance. When your toes move outward, your balance will get better. When you have reached a point that if you keep moving your toe outward, your balance will get worse.

It's like the normal distribution (bell curve). There is only one highest point. In other words, there is only one horse stance that will give you the maximum balance.

- A narrow horse stance is weak to resist a foot sweep from outside in.
- A wide horse stance is weak to resist a spring from inside out.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4995/bellcurve.gif

[Drake]

Uh...you don't hold a stance during a fight... all stances are impractical by themselves...

The benfit comes from the force generated from the transition...not standing there like a ******* in the say ping ma saying "HEEEET MEEEEE!!!"

[jmd161]

Uh...you don't hold a stance during a fight... all stances are impractical by themselves...

The benfit comes from the force generated from the transition...not standing there like a ******* in the say ping ma saying "HEEEET MEEEEE!!!"


Agreed!

But, you wouldn't want to transition into that stance as it is depicted at any point IMO. That stance whether transitioning or otherwise has a very poor base.

[SevenStar]

Hmmm,

I guess most would say the same about a horse stance but, that stance is not very practical IMO. There are a few occasions while executing a technique to where dropping into horse stance is practical. You don't have a solid foundation/base in that stance and can be off balanced easily among other things.

this is another transitional stance a grappler uses all the time. many turning hip throws like harai goshi will have you in that position for a split second as you fit in and execute the throw.

[jmd161]

this is another transitional stance a grappler uses all the time. many turning hip throws like harai goshi will have you in that position for a split second as you fit in and execute the throw.


Well, I guess I should have stated for the strike he's attempting in the picture... again IMO.

[Drake]

It's actually a very stable stance, btw, when done correctly. But all stances are transitional, flowing from one to the other. If the lau ma wasn't stable, that means it would be a vulnerable opening. This stance has been used for centuries, and is one of the basic foundational stances of CLF. It works.

[jmd161]

It's actually a very stable stance, btw, when done correctly. But all stances are transitional, flowing from one to the other. If the lau ma wasn't stable, that means it would be a vulnerable opening. This stance has been used for centuries, and is one of the basic foundational stances of CLF. It works.


I'm aware it's in CLF and we actually have a similar technique within Black Tiger... I'm basing my opinion on the actual picture. While I agree it can be used I don't feel the way it's depicted in the pic is very practical. I feel you would only sink that deep for forms or show never in actual fighting. If used in a fight it would be higher IMO.

I still don't feel it's one of the better techniques to use but, all techniques have their place.

Again, this is my own opinion.

[Drake]

I'm aware it's in CLF and we actually have a similar technique within Black Tiger... I'm basing my opinion on the actual picture. While I agree it can be used I don't feel the way it's depicted in the pic is very practical. I feel you would only sink that deep for forms or show never in actual fighting. If used in a fight it would be higher IMO.

I still don't feel it's one of the better techniques to use but, all techniques have their place.

Again, this is my own opinion.

Absolutely. And you'll see different applications of stances based on what is being instructed. For training, most of the stances will be deep and very exaggerrated. However, for fighting purposes, you'll notice that you'll be taught to use a much higher, less intensive stance, as you'll only be there for a brief moment.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Horse stances--excellent for balance training. You show me a good horse stance, and I'll show you someone who can kick hard (Side kick/thrust kick/front kick [not neccessarily roundhouse, though]) with a strong root. The trick is in the hip rotation and the leg planted on the ground. For that, you don't need a good horse stance, not necessarily, but it sure is a good training tool. Don't know a better one.

[taai gihk yahn]

Horse stances--excellent for balance training.
not even close! to train balance, which is a reactive system, you need to do things like standing on one leg, on an unstable surface, or with eyes closed or some combination of these, and also add in someone trying to push you over; horse training does not train balance, because the three systems that mediate balance, specifically muscle stretch receptors, the visual system and the vestibular system, are all velocity dependent - if you train statically, you will not improve their function in the least; in fact, horse training would technically be antithetical to developing good balance, because it is done with a wide base of support, which is what the body uses when it can't rely on the above three mentioned systems to do their job properly - it trades mobility for stability; and horse training is a stable practice that will make you good at one thing: standing in horse stance;


You show me a good horse stance, and I'll show you someone who can kick hard (Side kick/thrust kick/front kick [not neccessarily roundhouse, though]) with a strong root.
LOL - ridiculous: horse training is primarily isometric, slow-twitch muscle use; kicking hard is concentric, fast twitch muscle fiber use; opposite ends of the spectrum;



The trick is in the hip rotation and the leg planted on the ground. For that, you don't need a good horse stance, not necessarily, but it sure is a good training tool.
I am sure that at one point this sentence resembled a reasonable statement in English, until you got your hands on it, that is


Don't know a better one.
well, given the style that you practice, that's no surprise;

here's a little secret: if you want to get good at kicking, practice kicking; that's it; practice it against a bag too, if you actually want to develop power; practice it against moving targets if you want to improve accuracy; practice it against unpredictable targets if you want to build reaction time; practice it against someone trying not to get hit to work all three;

[Drake]

This is a pretty elementary discussion... let's ramp it up a bit.

What do you all think of the benefit of the shifting effect during transitions? For example, moving from a lau ma to a say ping ma, we often see a bit of a slide with the feet (depending on the surface, naturally). I know I do it, and I've always attributed it to the power generated during the transition.

Also... any thoughts of the switch from a nau ma (retreating) to ding ji ma (bow and arrow) and the energy generated into a poon kiu/sau choi?

[jmd161]

This is a pretty elementary discussion... let's ramp it up a bit.

What do you all think of the benefit of the shifting effect during transitions? For example, moving from a lau ma to a say ping ma, we often see a bit of a slide with the feet (depending on the surface, naturally). I know I do it, and I've always attributed it to the power generated during the transition.

Also... any thoughts of the switch from a nau ma (retreating) to ding ji ma (bow and arrow) and the energy generated into a poon kiu/sau choi?


With our horse training and stance training in general I see a lot of benefits because we do a lot of leg fighting... When we get in close we use our legs a lot for sliding or shifting into leg sweeps, trips take downs, and locks. So for us having a solid foundation is very important because we're fighting with our legs as we strike in close... The hands hide or distract from what we're doing with our legs at all times.

The transition is very important to the effectiveness of most techniques!

[bawang]

and horse training is a stable practice that will make you good at one thing: standing in horse stance;

hey man useing horse stance its really obvious . i show u at gta meet u will laff

not even close! to train balance, which is a reactive system, you need to do things like standing on one leg, on an unstable surface, or with eyes closed or some combination of these,
ya standing on a post

[uki]

here's a little secret: if you want to get good at kicking, practice kicking; that's it; practice it against a bag too, if you actually want to develop power; practice it against moving targets if you want to improve accuracy; practice it against unpredictable targets if you want to build reaction time; practice it against someone trying not to get hit to work all three;

this is just too simple... i like to kick trees because i don't want to have to kick people. :p

we often see a bit of a slide with the feet (depending on the surface, naturally). I know I do it, and I've always attributed it to the power generated during the transition.like a dragon...



ya standing on a postwhile juggling iron balls on one leg in rooster. :D

[taai gihk yahn]

hey man useing horse stance its really obvious . i show u at gta meet u will laff
hey, no funny bizness now, this is a family trip...


ya standing on a post
yup, as long as the post isn't too big in diameter


this is just too simple... i like to kick trees because i don't want to have to kick people. :p
that will build power, speed and conditioning; accuracy and reaction won't b trained, unless you rig a moving multi-target system that randomly lights up or gives an audible signal to react to...


while juggling iron balls on one leg in rooster. :D
absolutely and probably about the best you can do without a person randomy trying to push you - the movement of the arms and the body having to accommodate to the weight of the balls while standing on one leg will do it - it's basically plyometrics...now put a thick piece of cusion foam or an air-filled rubber disc on top of the post and stand on one foot - yowza!

[uki]

absolutely and probably about the best you can do without a person randomy trying to push you - the movement of the arms and the body having to accommodate to the weight of the balls while standing on one leg will do it - it's basically plyometrics!only a fool would think of something so simple. :)

[bawang]

absolutely and probably about the best you can do without a person randomy trying to push you

i think the best way is cable pulley. its the same as old traditional sandbag pulley but its more adjustable

[taai gihk yahn]

i think the best way is cable pulley. its the same as old traditional sandbag pulley but its more adjustable

cable pulleys are fine in and of themselves, but the thing is that's it's still a closed system, meaning that you know the line of pull, and you are initiating the motion, although you can train type I fibers if you are doing more "explosive" pulls; again, the thing about balance is that it needs to be able to deal with unexpected lines of force: that's what makes it functional in a combat (or day-to-day) situation; push-hands is a decent way of training this, although it becomes a problem when you overemphasize standing in one place: sometimes you can / should stand your ground, but other times using footwork is a better strategy;

[taai gihk yahn]

only a fool would think of something so simple. :)

and only an idiot would respond to this statement...oh, wait a minute...