body structure and hitting hard

[IRONMONK]

When I used to do wing chun I used to be rubbish at the "stance test" i.e having someone push you in the chest or on an extended punch whilst standing the stance.

My training partner was very good at this but when it came to punching his power was significantly weaker than mine(we are the same size)
What was he doing wrong?

[Frost]

static posture has little to do with dynamic, and being able to recieve force is not the same as being able to deliver it

[sanjuro_ronin]

static posture has little to do with dynamic, and being able to recieve force is not the same as being able to deliver it

Correct.
Static tests and stances have very little to do with dynamic movements.

[chusauli]

I see that as a variation of my test# 1...

But the key in my structure tests is that none of them are truly static. They all involve movement.

And I fully agree, he probably needed to focus more and hit the pads and shields more. Perhaps he was not aiming through the target pad?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I see that as a variation of my test# 1...

But the key in my structure tests is that none of them are truly static. They all involve movement.

And I fully agree, he probably needed to focus more and hit the pads and shields more. Perhaps he was not aiming through the target pad?

From what I gather from your DVD, that test is a fluid and dynamic one, the person being "pressed upon" is suppose the "redirect" the energy, but maintain structure and if that means "rotating or shifting axis" you do it, right?

[chusauli]

From what I gather from your DVD, that test is a fluid and dynamic one, the person being "pressed upon" is suppose the "redirect" the energy, but maintain structure and if that means "rotating or shifting axis" you do it, right?

No shifting of axis horizontally left or right, but shift of axis vertically with pelvis up or down...

...and not necessarily redirecting, but equalizing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No shifting of axis horizontally left or right, but shift of axis vertically with pelvis up or down...

...and not necessarily redirecting, but equalizing.

The equalizing part,yes...How does one equalize dynamic force from a static position?

[t_niehoff]

When I used to do wing chun I used to be rubbish at the "stance test" i.e having someone push you in the chest or on an extended punch whilst standing the stance.

My training partner was very good at this but when it came to punching his power was significantly weaker than mine(we are the same size)
What was he doing wrong?

The "stance test" is just a very basic way of testing your ability to "receive" pressure.

I can not say why your punch is more powerful without seeing what you both are doing.

[t_niehoff]

The equalizing part,yes...How does one equalize dynamic force from a static position?

Being stationary does not mean one is "static."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Being stationary does not mean one is "static."

Granted, but Robert said that the uncoming force is equalized, not redirect so I ask how does one do that in a stance where no (opposing) movement is allowed to "counter" the force?
Is it weight shifting because that is very limited VS a dynamic application of force.

[YungChun]

Granted, but Robert said that the uncoming force is equalized, not redirect so I ask how does one do that in a stance where no (opposing) movement is allowed to "counter" the force?
Is it weight shifting because that is very limited VS a dynamic application of force.

They appear to be shifting/moving their center forward structurally... It's a bit different from what I am familiar with...

[sanjuro_ronin]

They appear to be shifting/moving their center forward structurally... It's a bit different from what I am familiar with...

Which is fine VS an application of controlled force but when force is applied dynamiclly AND explosively for example, how does it work?
Again, redirecting I am very familiar with but equalizing...

[YungChun]

Which is fine VS an application of controlled force but when force is applied dynamiclly AND explosively for example, how does it work?
Again, redirecting I am very familiar with but equalizing...

Well as I said this is different from what I know, but they appear to be applying a forward vectored structure to match the force...with force....and also using it as a kind of pre-sprawl in the event of attempted take-down... Do you have Alan's videos?

[t_niehoff]

Granted, but Robert said that the uncoming force is equalized, not redirect so I ask how does one do that in a stance where no (opposing) movement is allowed to "counter" the force?
Is it weight shifting because that is very limited VS a dynamic application of force.

This can't be described simply over the internet -- it is a SKILL you need to be shown.

While you don't move your feet (so remain stationary), your body, torso, legs, etc, all respond dynamically (move).

[chusauli]

Paul,

The body works along longtitudinal chains of muscles (which incidentally, is the basis of Chinese acupuncture and meridian system, so when Hendrik uses the 8 extra channels or Qi Heng Ba Mai as an explanation is not far off), and basically, through a lot of practice and kinesthetic feel, you will get that right linkage.

Basically, you are looking for that positioned "wedge" or "sweet spot". For example, when shoveling snow or dirt, you have to "get just underneath the handle" to apply the leverage, and then the shoveling becomes easy. The structure test is to align the body vertically to make you into a human "wedge", just equalizing enough first then be able to ward off, redirect, guide, totter the opponent.

Some muscles are relaxed, others are contracted, others held with partial contracture. Muscles relaxed will give you more weight. Too much muscle contracture will make you a lever to be easily tossed. Relaxation and letting go can help a lot here.

The skill is in the practice and the kinesthetic feel. And of course, that requires a lot of time to develop skill.

I don't know how much that helped because really, kinesthetic feel is required. I tried my best here in this medium, Paul. I think you owe me a pretty girl poster. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

This can't be described simply over the internet -- it is a SKILL you need to be shown.

While you don't move your feet (so remain stationary), your body, torso, legs, etc, all respond dynamically (move).

Here is the thing, I understand that, but how do you equalize force without horizontal shifting ??
Especially force applied above or at the line of the shoulders ?

[t_niehoff]

Well as I said this is different from what I know, but they appear to be applying a forward vectored structure to match the force...with force....and also using it as a kind of pre-sprawl in the event of attempted take-down... Do you have Alan's videos?

Wrong.

The YJKYM uses the elasticity of the body (arch, knees, his, spine, etc.) to load the opponent's pressure like a rooted spring. When you receive pressure it actually feels like he is pressing you into the ground (not backward, for instance).

This then becomes a source of surprising power should he release it.

[t_niehoff]

Here is the thing, I understand that, but how do you equalize force without horizontal shifting ??
Especially force applied above or at the line of the shoulders ?

You need to be SHOWN how to do it.

[kung fu fighter]

Paul,

The body works along longtitudinal chains of muscles (which incidentally, is the basis of Chinese acupuncture and meridian system, so when Hendrik uses the 8 extra channels or Qi Heng Ba Mai as an explanation is not far off), and basically, through a lot of practice and kinesthetic feel, you will get that right linkage.

The structure test is to align the body vertically to make you into a human "wedge", just equalizing enough first then be able to ward off, redirect, guide, totter the opponent.

Some muscles are relaxed, others are contracted, others held with partial contracture. Muscles relaxed will give you more weight. Too much muscle contracture will make you a lever to be easily tossed. Relaxation and letting go can help a lot here.

Hey Robert,
So the 6 directional force vector, An jing and hua jin is covered on your DVD series?

[chusauli]

Hey Robert,
So the 6 directional force vector is covered on your DVD's?

I don't recall if I did or not. After taping, I pretty much called it a day and went to get some lunch. Also, personally, I hate looking at myself on film.

Anyone else see the DVD and remember?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Paul,

The body works along longtitudinal chains of muscles (which incidentally, is the basis of Chinese acupuncture and meridian system, so when Hendrik uses the 8 extra channels or Qi Heng Ba Mai as an explanation is not far off), and basically, through a lot of practice and kinesthetic feel, you will get that right linkage.

Basically, you are looking for that positioned "wedge" or "sweet spot". For example, when shoveling snow or dirt, you have to "get just underneath the handle" to apply the leverage, and then the shoveling becomes easy. The structure test is to align the body vertically to make you into a human "wedge", just equalizing enough first then be able to ward off, redirect, guide, totter the opponent.

Some muscles are relaxed, others are contracted, others held with partial contracture. Muscles relaxed will give you more weight. Too much muscle contracture will make you a lever to be easily tossed. Relaxation and letting go can help a lot here.

The skill is in the practice and the kinesthetic feel. And of course, that requires a lot of time to develop skill.

I don't know how much that helped because really, kinesthetic feel is required. I tried my best here in this medium, Paul. I think you owe me a pretty girl poster. :)

Actually,m you explained that really well and yes, here you go:
http://media.picfor.me/00110B05/Secy-Contest-sexy-girls-women-contest-bikini-ass-culo-ASSSSSSS-Perfect-body-babes-keiths-pics-good-artluckart-Luv-of-Women-deano1-meny-hot-Teds2-s-hot-girls-bottom-butt-nice_large.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't recall if I did or not. After taping, I pretty much called it a day and went to get some lunch. Also, personally, I hate looking at myself on film.

Anyone else see the DVD and remember?

Yep, they were there, though I don't think you mentioned them by name per se.

[kung fu fighter]

The YJKYM uses the elasticity of the body (arch, knees, his, spine, etc.) to load the opponent's pressure like a rooted spring. When you receive pressure it actually feels like he is pressing you into the ground (not backward, for instance).

This then becomes a source of surprising power should he release it.

I agree !00%, I Just refer to this as rooting when I teach my students, but I believe others like Hendrik use different terminoly such as 6 directional force vector to discribe this phenominon. What's your opinion on this T, Have you ever seen what Hendrik does in regards to this?

[chusauli]

Actually,m you explained that really well and yes, here you go:
http://media.picfor.me/00110B05/Secy-Contest-sexy-girls-women-contest-bikini-ass-culo-ASSSSSSS-Perfect-body-babes-keiths-pics-good-artluckart-Luv-of-Women-deano1-meny-hot-Teds2-s-hot-girls-bottom-butt-nice_large.jpg

Thanks Paul! You've made my day!

Although I do not know the look of her face, who cares?! :)

[chusauli]

I agree !00%, I Just refer to this as rooting when I teach my students, but I believe others like Hendrik use different terminoly such as 6 directional force vector to discribe this phenominon. What's your opinion on this T, Have you ever seen what Hendrik does in regards to this?

6 directional force vector is basically up/down, left/right and forwards/backwards. The key is to combine all of these giving you a vector force (or use variations). You can also say it is 3-D.

Any actions that make use of the strongest muscles in your body can be surprisingly powerful.

[YungChun]

Wrong.

The YJKYM uses the elasticity of the body (arch, knees, his, spine, etc.) to load the opponent's pressure like a rooted spring. When you receive pressure it actually feels like he is pressing you into the ground (not backward, for instance).

This then becomes a source of surprising power should he release it.

Well they appear to be moving their COG out in front, (more-so than most) over their toes... Elastic, ground spring loaded or not. Any force that equalizes another is directed opposite to that force..

[sanjuro_ronin]

6 directional force vector is basically up/down, left/right and forwards/backwards. The key is to combine all of these giving you a vector force (or use variations). You can also say it is 3-D.

Any actions that make use of the strongest muscles in your body can be surprisingly powerful.

Hence the picture I posted :D

[Wayfaring]

Hence the picture I posted :D

And quite an exquisite COG that was.

[Hendrik]

I agree !00%, I Just refer to this as rooting when I teach my students, but I believe others like Hendrik use different terminoly such as 6 directional force vector to discribe this phenominon.



To put it in a loving kindness way,

No Hendrik doesnt use different terminology such as 6 directional force vectors to describe the phenomenon you mention.

Hendrik is being very specific and what you call rooting is not what Hendrik present.

[Hendrik]

When I used to do wing chun I used to be rubbish at the "stance test" i.e having someone push you in the chest or on an extended punch whilst standing the stance.

My training partner was very good at this but when it came to punching his power was significantly weaker than mine(we are the same size)
What was he doing wrong?


There is nothing wrong, it is just the different between one is better then other in producing an outward resultant force and the other one is better in produce a partial equilibrium.

Everything is clear under the six directional force vectors analysis.

[Hendrik]

Paul,

The body works along longtitudinal chains of muscles (which incidentally, is the basis of Chinese acupuncture and meridian system, so when Hendrik uses the 8 extra channels or Qi Heng Ba Mai as an explanation is not far off),.





Robert,


Ideally, one needs to be able to use all the 8 extra channels in the same time to generate the desire /intended six directional force vectors resultant force.

As you know most people are partial on the 8 extra channels handling, doing YJKYM for them just train a low number of channel as none or two in general. That is a reality of the problematic in WCK.

So, when one said, Rooting, well, how many extra channels one activate at the rooting? that is a big issue. IMHO.



hahaha, that lead to I always ask other to Baisi to learn these stuffs. argue cant take the place of learning from a good sifu on the key basic.

[IRONMONK]

Just want to add that I beleive my punch is more powerful due to having better arm and feet coordination i.e landing the punch at the same time or just before my foot lands(falling step)

What would make a good "dynamic structure" drill/test? How about having someone put pressure on your chest as you step forward?

[Hendrik]

What would make a good "dynamic structure" drill/test?

Just some thoughts,

Only a few months ago the term Dynamic structure is rare in this forum. then there are structure discussion. Then to differentiate structure, the term dynamic is introduced.


Does everyone really really know what is a structure yet before proceed to "dynamic structure"?

Similarly,

Reading posts here, I found some is substitute Six directional force vectors as Rooting....etc.

Well, that will confuse one even more.

[k gledhill]

Just want to add that I beleive my punch is more powerful due to having better arm and feet coordination i.e landing the punch at the same time or just before my foot lands(falling step)

What would make a good "dynamic structure" drill/test? How about having someone put pressure on your chest as you step forward?

seung ma ~ toi ma

keep your elbows in and make your corresponding elbow/hip match the timing.

[shawchemical]

Just some thoughts,

Only a few months ago the term Dynamic structure is rare in this forum. then there are structure discussion. Then to differentiate structure, the term dynamic is introduced.


Does everyone really really know what is a structure yet before proceed to "dynamic structure"?

Similarly,

Reading posts here, I found some is substitute Six directional force vectors as Rooting....etc.

Well, that will confuse one even more.

Most people understand what structure is.

Everytime you post on the matter you serve to do nothing but muddy the waters.

Additionally, dynamic structure is simply non static structure.

The concepts are not hard to understand, yet you seem to believe that you are the sole person with the intellectual capacity to grasp them.

YOu can use jargon, I'll give you that much, but you do nothing to elucidate the meaning of the terms.

[Hendrik]

OK, if you think you know it all.

Why dont you describe the process of Hua Jing which is a dynamic structure ?

Could you? I am waiting.


BTW.

if you dont like my post, It is not for you.
and also your

dynamic structure is simply non static structure. is that it?


Your reaction and view is actually justify my point of concern in my previous post.








Most people understand what structure is.

Everytime you post on the matter you serve to do nothing but muddy the waters.

Additionally, dynamic structure is simply non static structure.

The concepts are not hard to understand, yet you seem to believe that you are the sole person with the intellectual capacity to grasp them.

YOu can use jargon, I'll give you that much, but you do nothing to elucidate the meaning of the terms.

[shawchemical]

OK, if you think you know it all.

Why dont you describe the process of Hua Jing which is a dynamic structure ?

Could you? I am waiting.


BTW.

if you dont like my post, It is not for you.
and also your
is that it?


Your reaction and view is actually justify my point of concern in my previous post.

Yes that is it.

There are many different types, both of static structures and dynamic structures.

But clearly that doesn't bother you as all you do is post jargon laden post after jargon laden post without ever actually describing anything.

YOu continue to talk about 6-directional force vectors but never actually give the force balances to support a single thing you are saying. Just saying 6 directional force vectors means nothing. You cannot throw jargon at something and just hope that you can confuse people with it, hoping to appear wise and knowledgeable because you can use circular logic and a condescending tone towards people.

You talk about these things as though they are some sort of mystical secret that only the initiated have ever learnt. Yet in reality, they are simply biomechanic principles in action.

[YungChun]

What would make a good "dynamic structure" drill/test? How about having someone put pressure on your chest as you step forward?

How about having two people each try to move the other back... That would be a good structure test no?

Man if someone would only invent a drill like that...:D

[LSWCTN1]

Wrong.

The YJKYM uses the elasticity of the body (arch, knees, his, spine, etc.) to load the opponent's pressure like a rooted spring. When you receive pressure it actually feels like he is pressing you into the ground (not backward, for instance).

This then becomes a source of surprising power should he release it.

how surprising?

not meaning to be facetious, but you have already stated that you dont believe wck can cause a ko

[k gledhill]

VT does cause ko's :D saying it doesnt is kinda revealing Terences depths or er shallows ;)

[YungChun]

how surprising?

not meaning to be facetious, but you have already stated that you dont believe wck can cause a ko

Surprisingly ineffective I guess.. :eek:

[t_niehoff]

how surprising?

not meaning to be facetious, but you have already stated that you dont believe wck can cause a ko

Why do you idiots keep making things up? Seriously, I really do think that many of you just don't have decent reading comprehension skills.

I never said that.

[t_niehoff]

VT does cause ko's :D saying it doesnt is kinda revealing Terences depths or er shallows ;)

Another IDIOT at work.

Using something I never said to "reveal" I'm the one who is shallow!

[YungChun]

Why do you idiots keep making things up? Seriously, I really do think that many of you just don't have decent reading comprehension skills.

I never said that.

You're going a bit over the top on this one..

If we polled the group I would wager that you'd be saying the entire group has no reading comprehension. And if the whole group (virtually) thinks you said that, guess what?

You have made it pretty clear that you feel Chun strikes lack enough power to expect KOs (it sounds like that means something like 99% of the time)

Or perhaps you were simply referring to your estimates of what others are capable of, or perhaps your personal results as well... Hard to know because you never flesh this stuff out.

Bottom line is that you are known by the whole group as having this position--essentially translating to the idea that Chun punches (and other strikes) lack power when compared to other styles such as MT and WB.

[t_niehoff]

You're going a bit over the top on this one..

If we polled the group I would wager that you'd be saying the entire group has no reading comprehension. And if the whole group (virtually) thinks you said that, guess what?


I don't think this group -- with some exceptions -- has DEMONSTRATED a very high level of intelligence or reading comprehension.

But, why don't you find my post where I said that?



You have made it pretty clear that you feel Chun strikes lack enough power to expect KOs (it sounds like that means something like 99% of the time)

Or perhaps you were simply referring to your estimates of what others are capable of, or perhaps your personal results as well... Hard to know because you never flesh this stuff out.


Are YOU regularly KOing people? Hmmm? No. 99.9 % of you have never KO'ed anyone in your life. So what makes you think you will KO someone should you ever need to fight? This is all fantasy for you guys.

What I have said is that the WCK PUNCH -- the jik chung choi -- isn't "designed" to be a KO-inducing punch (although it can happen).



Bottom line is that you are known by the whole group as having this position--essentially translating to the idea that Chun punches (and other strikes) lack power when compared to other styles such as MT and WB.

No matter what art you do, you are only as good as the training you do. It's not so much the art, but how you train that art.

Boxers and MT fighters, for the most part, are training to KO people. 99.9 % of WCK people aren't.

[YungChun]

Boxers and MT fighters, for the most part, are training to KO people. 99.9 % of WCK people aren't.

So why not simply state your position on the matter..? I don't give a crap if you think you're the only one here who has the "real" or quality Chun training. I am only interested in what you think of the art itself..

Do you think that Chun strikes are in any way less powerful, therefore less likely to KO then the strikes in other arts like MT or WB?

Oh and 99.9% was a terribly conservative estimate.. ;)

[t_niehoff]

So why not simply state your position on the matter..? I don't give a crap if you think you're the only one here who has the "real" or quality Chun training. I am only interested in what you think of the art itself..

Do you think that Chun strikes are in any way less powerful, therefore less likely to KO then the strikes in other arts like MT or WB?

Oh and 99.9% was a terribly conservative estimate.. ;)

I have stated my position many times.

KOing someone isn't just a simple question of power -- but what that power is doing, how it is generated, how it is applied, etc. A shove, for instance, may be more powerful than a strike, but it won't cause a KO.

When you try to compare WCK to boxing or MT, you are comparing apples to oranges. These sorts of comparisons are silly. Which art is more powerful? That's a meaningless question.

If you try to KO someone with the WCK punch, you won't be very successful.

[YungChun]

I have stated my position many times.

KOing someone isn't just a simple question of power -- but what that power is doing, how it is generated, how it is applied, etc. A shove, for instance, may be more powerful than a strike, but it won't cause a KO.

When you try to compare WCK to boxing or MT, you are comparing apples to oranges. These sorts of comparisons are silly. Which art is more powerful? That's a meaningless question.

If you try to KO someone with the WCK punch, you won't be very successful.

That's great Terence.... You're like a spinning top. I won't even bother with this one..

[IRONMONK]

Why is Paulie Malignnagi so feather fisted then?

[t_niehoff]

Why is Paulie Malignnagi so feather fisted then?

Sorry? Don't understand.

[Hendrik]

1, I am asking you to describe the process of Hua Jing which is a dynamic structure in any way you want be it with your biomechanics or anything, and I still didnt get an answer.

Until you be able to do the above, how can others know if you understand dynamic structure ?

2, six directional force vectors is 3 D mechanics it is solid physics like the one one study in high school or college.

how do you describe things in your so call biomechanics without the basic mechancis? are you using the term biomechanics as a mantra? if not how do you describe the force trajectory ?

Isnt it lots of people advocate no oriental secret but using western Physics, scientifics....etc? Now, the six directional force vectors including the Newton's third law is exactly Physics . So, What is the complain?


3, There are enough example in previous posts including Robert and others discussion on six directional force vectors examples. If you dont understand then re read them, if you still dont get it, then go Baisi and learn with someone who knows.


4, as for your comment on


You talk about these things as though they are some sort of mystical secret that only the initiated have ever learnt. Yet in reality, they are simply biomechanic principles in action.


a, six directional force vectors concept and the resultant force generation and resolution is the closes to physics and mechanics one can get where is the mystical secret?

b,
Yet in reality, they are simply biomechanic principles in action. is an over simplify jumping step statement which missing the evolution.


For example, one can say doing yoga bending is a simple biomechanics. In fact, for those who know how to do the bend doesnt need the biomechancis at all. The body knows what to do, one doesnt even have to use the mind to analyze it in a biomechanics way.

The problem is most of the people thinking once they know the so called "biomechanics" they can do it. Is that true? nope, if the body was never evolve to a certain level to be able to carry out the action what or how the mind think doesnt matter.







Yes that is it.

There are many different types, both of static structures and dynamic structures.

But clearly that doesn't bother you as all you do is post jargon laden post after jargon laden post without ever actually describing anything.

YOu continue to talk about 6-directional force vectors but never actually give the force balances to support a single thing you are saying. Just saying 6 directional force vectors means nothing. You cannot throw jargon at something and just hope that you can confuse people with it, hoping to appear wise and knowledgeable because you can use circular logic and a condescending tone towards people.

You talk about these things as though they are some sort of mystical secret that only the initiated have ever learnt. Yet in reality, they are simply biomechanic principles in action.

[t_niehoff]

That's great Terence.... You're like a spinning top. I won't even bother with this one..

Do you think the boxing jab is going to KO people? I guess it could in rare instances but that's not what it was "designed" for. The mechanics, how it is used, etc. doesn't generate KOs. But it is a valuable tool that fits into boxing's overall fighting method.

The WCK punch isn't a jab, but also isn't "designed" to be a KO-type punch -- it's "designed" to be a structure-breaking punch on the inside, which opens the door to WCK's finishing (saat) methods, like elbow strikes. The WCK punch is a valuable tool that fits into WCK's overall fighting method. It's a cog in the overall game.

[IRONMONK]

Sorry? Don't understand.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=52984&cat=boxer

There is quite a few pro fighters with low KO rates. Definitely more than 0.01% :D
so why are these fighters so featherfisted?

[t_niehoff]

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=52984&cat=boxer

There is quite a few pro fighters with low KO rates. Definitely more than 0.01% :D
so why are these fighters so featherfisted?

They're not "featherfisted".

If you are a pro fighter, you hit HARD. If you don't, the other guy will have no "respect" for you (since he won't care if you hit him) and will be all over you.

But being able to hit HARD doesn't necessarily translate into KOs. There's a lot more to KOing someone than hitting hard.

What many of the theoretical nonfighters don't grasp is how difficult it is to KO someone who is fighting you, particularly someone who is conditioned (so used to taking shots) and has some skills. That's what makes guys with large numbers of KOs so impressive.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everyone can develop a hard strike, "knock out artists" are born.

[IRONMONK]

What many of the theoretical nonfighters don't grasp is how difficult it is to KO someone who is fighting you, particularly someone who is conditioned (so used to taking shots) and has some skills. That's what makes guys with large numbers of KOs so impressive.

So what is your pro/amateur record?

[Knifefighter]

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=52984&cat=boxer

There is quite a few pro fighters with low KO rates. Definitely more than 0.01% :D
so why are these fighters so featherfisted?

LOL @ thinking any pro boxer with more than a couple of pro bouts is featherfisted.

[t_niehoff]

So what is your pro/amateur record?

What's that matter?

Go to a boxing gym where they train pro fighters and see for yourself.

I've done that. I've seen firsthand and experienced firsthand what they can do. You can do that too, if you go to a good gym. Believe me, it's one thing to watch it on video or TV (you can't get it from that), and another to be in the ring while they are doing it to you.

[SAAMAG]

Why is Paulie Malignnagi so feather fisted then?

LOL. Yea that guy hits like a girl. :p Relative to everyone else he fights.

[goju]

What's that matter?

Go to a boxing gym where they train pro fighters and see for yourself.

I've done that. I've seen firsthand and experienced firsthand what they can do. You can do that too, if you go to a good gym. Believe me, it's one thing to watch it on video or TV (you can't get it from that), and another to be in the ring while they are doing it to you.

which pro fighters do you train with? im curious since as has been discussed here most of the elite stick to tight groups that they train/spar with so i find it odd they would give somebody who hasnt fought the time of day.:D

[SAAMAG]

which pro fighters do you train with? im curious since as has been discussed here most of the elite stick to tight groups that they train/spar with so i find it odd they would give somebody who hasnt fought the time of day.:D

Well, there are pro and amatuer fighters at the MMA gym that I frequented...all nice guys and would spar with me whenever. I think it's because while I'm not a competition freak I am very competitive when I go rounds. They'll still beat me of course if we were really going at it, but I don't care because I don't make it easy for them. :p

[goju]

Well, there are pro and amatuer fighters at the MMA gym that I frequented...all nice guys and would spar with me whenever. I think it's because while I'm not a competition freak I am very competitive when I go rounds. They'll still beat me of course if we were really going at it, but I don't care because I don't make it easy for them. :p

yeah the amateur team is always hanging around to spar or teach the class if the coach is away but the pros would be alot harder to wrangle in for a go

[k gledhill]

Terence your still confused even after all this time....

heavy bags are your friend.

[shawchemical]

1, I am asking you to describe the process of Hua Jing which is a dynamic structure in any way you want be it with your biomechanics or anything, and I still didnt get an answer.

Until you be able to do the above, how can others know if you understand dynamic structure ?

2, six directional force vectors is 3 D mechanics it is solid physics like the one one study in high school or college.

how do you describe things in your so call biomechanics without the basic mechancis? are you using the term biomechanics as a mantra? if not how do you describe the force trajectory ?

Isnt it lots of people advocate no oriental secret but using western Physics, scientifics....etc? Now, the six directional force vectors including the Newton's third law is exactly Physics . So, What is the complain?


3, There are enough example in previous posts including Robert and others discussion on six directional force vectors examples. If you dont understand then re read them, if you still dont get it, then go Baisi and learn with someone who knows.


4, as for your comment on



a, six directional force vectors concept and the resultant force generation and resolution is the closes to physics and mechanics one can get where is the mystical secret?

b, is an over simplify jumping step statement which missing the evolution.


For example, one can say doing yoga bending is a simple biomechanics. In fact, for those who know how to do the bend doesnt need the biomechancis at all. The body knows what to do, one doesnt even have to use the mind to analyze it in a biomechanics way.

The problem is most of the people thinking once they know the so called "biomechanics" they can do it. Is that true? nope, if the body was never evolve to a certain level to be able to carry out the action what or how the mind think doesnt matter.

Have you considered english lessons. I get the distinct feeling that you're unable to get your point across because of either inadequate language skills or inadequate knowledge.

YOu fail again to address the issue, which is that just name dropping of jargon doesn't do anything to increase someone's understanding.

As for a dynamic structure being a process, if you can't see that the statement is self constradictory then you need to revisit the first point.

Regarding the stretching point you make, or rather your failed attempt, it is not the movement which requires the knowledge of biomechanics you are quite correct. However, understanding WHAT is happening and WHY it is happening can only occur when this knowledge is applied to the observations of the movements.

What on earth is Western physics and science?? There is no such thing.

YOu have missed the point about the use of ideas such as newton's theories of motion. YOu can't just say, Newton's third law and have the matter settled. YOu must provide an explanation for why the situation you are explaining fits that theory.

[shawchemical]

I don't think this group -- with some exceptions -- has DEMONSTRATED a very high level of intelligence or reading comprehension.

But, why don't you find my post where I said that?



Are YOU regularly KOing people? Hmmm? No. 99.9 % of you have never KO'ed anyone in your life. So what makes you think you will KO someone should you ever need to fight? This is all fantasy for you guys.

What I have said is that the WCK PUNCH -- the jik chung choi -- isn't "designed" to be a KO-inducing punch (although it can happen).



No matter what art you do, you are only as good as the training you do. It's not so much the art, but how you train that art.

Boxers and MT fighters, for the most part, are training to KO people. 99.9 % of WCK people aren't.

Boxers are training to score points idiot. Not to KO someone. Yes, there are many boxers who are feather fisted. Lets name a few who have been champions. Sven Ottke, Anthony mundine, Kessler. These guys hit like small children, and definitely don't try to KO people. Yet they have been world champs.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Yes, there are many boxers who are feather fisted. Lets name a few who have been champions. Sven Ottke, Anthony mundine, Kessler. These guys hit like small children, and definitely don't try to KO people. Yet they have been world champs.

Awesome. I'd love to see a feather fisted champ go up against a KO champ. They use the same ruleset anyway, right? It would be an interesting spectacle.

[Frost]

yeah the amateur team is always hanging around to spar or teach the class if the coach is away but the pros would be alot harder to wrangle in for a go

pros do it for a living they cant afford to get injuried fighting someone they dont know...if they know you and feel you can offer something they they will spar, but normally if they haven't known you for years then they wont.

[Frost]

on a side note how did a thread that was answered on the first page manage to get to 5 pages in length:eek:

[goju]

pros do it for a living they cant afford to get injuried fighting someone they dont know...if they know you and feel you can offer something they they will spar, but normally if they haven't known you for years then they wont.

(nods head in agreement)

[goju]

on a side note how did a thread that was answered on the first page manage to get to 5 pages in length:eek:
what are you new here or something? http://michaelgoodnow.net/images/emotions/EmoticonLaugh.gif

[t_niehoff]

Terence your still confused even after all this time....

heavy bags are your friend.

Heavy bags are great if you are trying to develop your boxing -- but they aren't useful for developing WCK.

[t_niehoff]

Boxers are training to score points idiot. Not to KO someone. Yes, there are many boxers who are feather fisted. Lets name a few who have been champions. Sven Ottke, Anthony mundine, Kessler. These guys hit like small children, and definitely don't try to KO people. Yet they have been world champs.

Of course they are trying to score points -- AND KO their opponent if they can.

There are no pro boxers who are featherfisted.

Saying pros -- including world champs -- hit like small children only shows how utterly clueless you are.

But don't let me rouse you out of your fantasy. :)

[t_niehoff]

which pro fighters do you train with? im curious since as has been discussed here most of the elite stick to tight groups that they train/spar with so i find it odd they would give somebody who hasnt fought the time of day.:D

Here's an idea -- why don't you actually go join a good gym and train? Then you'd see how it works. (Hint: when fighters see that you are training hard, putting in the work, they will give you the time of day.)

And hey, here's another idea -- why don't you pay to take privates with pro fighters? They'll be more than happy to spar with you. :)

[Hendrik]

I am always interested in how there is a better way,


Let's focus on the bottom line:

Hua Jin is a dynamic structure, and to be able to do Huan Jin one needs a type of adaptive process.

So, again, please answer the following question. this is the third time I ask.



1, I am asking you to describe the process of Hua Jing which is a dynamic structure in any way you want be it with your biomechanics or anything, and I still didnt get an answer.

Until you be able to do the above, how can others know if you understand dynamic structure ?








Have you considered english lessons. I get the distinct feeling that you're unable to get your point across because of either inadequate language skills or inadequate knowledge. ..........

[SAAMAG]

Of course they are trying to score points -- AND KO their opponent if they can.

There are no pro boxers who are featherfisted.

Saying pros -- including world champs -- hit like small children only shows how utterly clueless you are.

But don't let me rouse you out of your fantasy. :)

Being a pro doesn't mean that you automatically hit like Mike Tyson Terence. You should know that. A pro is someone who's put in the work and proven they can fight at that level without getting killed immediately.

It doesn't mean that can hit harder than everyone or don't have a lighter hit than others. The term "feather fisted" might be a bit of an exaggeration, but the person whom he mentioned doesn't seem to hit worth a **** in terms of power...but he is a great boxer.

[goju]

Here's an idea -- why don't you actually go join a good gym and train? Then you'd see how it works. (Hint: when fighters see that you are training hard, putting in the work, they will give you the time of day.)

And hey, here's another idea -- why don't you pay to take privates with pro fighters? They'll be more than happy to spar with you. :)


Heres an idea. How about you answer the question instead of trying to run around it.This is just making you look like a liar my friend:D

[k gledhill]

Heavy bags are great if you are trying to develop your boxing -- but they aren't useful for developing WCK.

hahahhahah :D right heavy bags are bad for vt. :rolleyes: terence have you ever ko'd a guy with a VT punch ? I have many times, its what saves your b u t t when facing more than 1 scrub at a time..'first come first served' if you cant stop 'n' drop a guy then you should revisit your punch mechanics..

hip + elbow

you can do drills for elbow control/ striking, 40 minutes is the current record i know for a wsl vt guy [desmond spencer]

using lan sao with hip to move bag is another.

Hitting the bag as it moves side to side with you moving to take a flanking /facing strike as it does, gives timing for distance and force.

hitting the bag as it swings side to side with you facing from center axis and striking the bag as it swings to the apex point then allowing the bag to swing back to the other side and strike facing .....

using open hand strikes allows for closer 'stunning' shots and po-pai shoves too....

theres more but I dont want to scare you :D

And yes i have hit guys with the same force as i hit heavy bags, they fly back 6ft on their a s s ....makes all the fancy controlling c r a p redudnant.

try it , just ko a guy with one punch instead of trying to 'attach' :D yourself .

the heavy bag is your friend.;)

kicking heavy long thai bags with front low kicks , side kicks....and yeah Ive kicked guys in fights too ..they move like a bowling ball hits a pin ...POW ! one kick is all it takes too. only guys usually lift off the floor rathjer than go ass first...go figure .

One ofn the reasons I now follow this way of VT , becasue its all based on striking with mechanics that allow tactical positioning that gives striking facing , momentum in your attacks. similar to my experiences fighting scrubs .

[IRONMONK]

Of course they are trying to score points -- AND KO their opponent if they can.

There are no pro boxers who are featherfisted.
Saying pros -- including world champs -- hit like small children only shows how utterly clueless you are.

But don't let me rouse you out of your fantasy. :)

Why isn't that possible esp if they have a good hand speed and defence?
So which pro/amateur fighters have you trained with?

[Sardinkahnikov]

I like heavy bags, mostly because it's simply a heavy object you can hit, which helps you to correct your stance and your steps.

[t_niehoff]

Why isn't that possible esp if they have a good hand speed and defence?
So which pro/amateur fighters have you trained with?

You obviously have never boxed. Without having the ability to hurt your opponent, you won't have a "good defense" and your opponent will run over you. What keeps him at bay is respect -- respect for what you can do to him if he makes a mistake or gives you an opportunity to land a shot.

All decent fighters (amateur or pro) have good chins (even those with what are considered weak chins in the pros have chins well beyond what most non pros have) and can hit really hard -- and this comes from natural selection: those without good chins and without the ability to hit hard are fodder for those who can.

Train boxing for a while and you'll see what I mean.

[t_niehoff]

hahahhahah :D right heavy bags are bad for vt. :rolleyes: terence have you ever ko'd a guy with a VT punch ? I have many times,


Sure you have -- in your fantasy world. I'm sure you just go around KOing people. Your hands are, after all, made of granite! It must frighten you possessing the awesome power that you do.

Now, go back and take your medication. And stop listening to the voices.



its what saves your b u t t when facing more than 1 scrub at a time..'first come first served' if you cant stop 'n' drop a guy then you should revisit your punch mechanics..


Yes, yes, not only are you KOing one person, but you fight multiple opponents. I see. And does this take place on Earth or on the astral plain?



hip + elbow


Ingenious! Hip and elbow -- you're a genius.



you can do drills for elbow control/ striking, 40 minutes is the current record i know for a wsl vt guy [desmond spencer]

using lan sao with hip to move bag is another.

Hitting the bag as it moves side to side with you moving to take a flanking /facing strike as it does, gives timing for distance and force.

hitting the bag as it swings side to side with you facing from center axis and striking the bag as it swings to the apex point then allowing the bag to swing back to the other side and strike facing .....

using open hand strikes allows for closer 'stunning' shots and po-pai shoves too....

theres more but I dont want to scare you :D


It's OK, I'm not scared -- I've been in WCK for a long time, I'm used to dealing with deluded people. WCK people aren't scary, they are harmless enough except to themselves.



And yes i have hit guys with the same force as i hit heavy bags, they fly back 6ft on their a s s ....makes all the fancy controlling c r a p redudnant.

try it , just ko a guy with one punch instead of trying to 'attach' :D yourself .

the heavy bag is your friend.;)

kicking heavy long thai bags with front low kicks , side kicks....and yeah Ive kicked guys in fights too ..they move like a bowling ball hits a pin ...POW ! one kick is all it takes too. only guys usually lift off the floor rathjer than go ass first...go figure .

One ofn the reasons I now follow this way of VT , becasue its all based on striking with mechanics that allow tactical positioning that gives striking facing , momentum in your attacks. similar to my experiences fighting scrubs .

Sure, sure, whatever you say. Don't get yourself riled up now. Just take calming deep breaths, take your medication, and stop listening to the voices. They are not your friends.

[t_niehoff]

Heres an idea. How about you answer the question instead of trying to run around it.This is just making you look like a liar my friend:D

I don't give a sh1t what you or some of the other idiots believe.

There are people who will go out and seek out these experience for themselves and then there are people like you and Victor, who won't, but who believe they they nevertheless really "know".

I've posted before the gyms I train at, and I spar with the people who train there. I've also attended seminars, and had privates with some good people. But it's not a question of the experiences I've had but the ones you haven't had that is relevant to this discussion.

If you do that work, and gain that experience, then you will come to see things in a different light. It's not a question of skill but having the experience.

Here's the best MT fighter alive today sparring with people at seminar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hhIGfMqfUQ

if you think he's just playing around (and there is some of that), you should know that's pretty much how he fights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gi8OXK6VwU

So, if you want to spar with good people, you can attend their seminar (the good ones will spar with all the attendees) or you can do privates (even have one come to your school or gym).

Or, you can take a conventional route and just join a good gym. It's not difficult to get to train with good fighters -- that is a part of any GOOD gym. If you go join a good MMA gym or a good MT gym or a good boxing gym or a good BJJ gym, you will spar with just about everybody, as the sparring is why everyone is there in the first place.

If you don't believe that is the case, then go to a good gym and find out for yourself.

[t_niehoff]

Being a pro doesn't mean that you automatically hit like Mike Tyson Terence. You should know that. A pro is someone who's put in the work and proven they can fight at that level without getting killed immediately.


Stop putting F U C K ING words in my mouth. I never said all pros hit like Tyson. I said they all hit HARD. To fight at that level -- pro -- they must hit hard to survive. They wouldn't even get to that level without hitting HARD.

It's like saying you can be a pro baseball player (other than a pitcher) and not bat well. You simply won't make it to the pros if you don't.



It doesn't mean that can hit harder than everyone or don't have a lighter hit than others. The term "feather fisted" might be a bit of an exaggeration, but the person whom he mentioned doesn't seem to hit worth a **** in terms of power...but he is a great boxer.

What I mean is that the most feather-fisted pro boxers out there hits many times harder than you or anyone (except other pro fighters) on this forum ever will. If you got in the ring with a pro boxer you'd wet yourself. If you haven't done it, you just don't know what it is like, how fast they are, how hard they hit, how amazing their timing. No one is a great boxer who can't hit really, really HARD.

What I find amazing is that people who have never done it, never experienced it, have these firm ideas based on their complete lack of experience.

[goju]

I don't give a sh1t what you or some of the other idiots believe.

There are people who will go out and seek out these experience for themselves and then there are people like you and Victor, who won't, but who believe they they nevertheless really "know".

I've posted before the gyms I train at, and I spar with the people who train there. I've also attended seminars, and had privates with some good people. But it's not a question of the experiences I've had but the ones you haven't had that is relevant to this discussion.

If you do that work, and gain that experience, then you will come to see things in a different light. It's not a question of skill but having the experience.

Here's the best MT fighter alive today sparring with people at seminar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hhIGfMqfUQ

if you think he's just playing around (and there is some of that), you should know that's pretty much how he fights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gi8OXK6VwU

So, if you want to spar with good people, you can attend their seminar (the good ones will spar with all the attendees) or you can do privates (even have one come to your school or gym).

Or, you can take a conventional route and just join a good gym. It's not difficult to get to train with good fighters -- that is a part of any GOOD gym. If you go join a good MMA gym or a good MT gym or a good boxing gym or a good BJJ gym, you will spar with just about everybody, as the sparring is why everyone is there in the first place.

If you don't believe that is the case, then go to a good gym and find out for yourself.


No youre response to everything is " go find a good gym" guess what old man? i've been there done that and your posts point to it being obvious you havent done the same thing,

You honestly expect us to believe some over the hill scrub who admitted he wasted what was it 17 years learning bad wing chun all the sudden made the switch to a good gym and is training with pros all the time at your age ? ahahahahahahahahah!!!

why wont you name a single pro you train with then?why is that so hard to do?

and please dont blather on any more about boxing .

you dont even understand youre own art dont try to pretend you do with others:rolleyes:

[IRONMONK]

You obviously have never boxed. Without having the ability to hurt your opponent, you won't have a "good defense" and your opponent will run over you. What keeps him at bay is respect -- respect for what you can do to him if he makes a mistake or gives you an opportunity to land a shot.

All decent fighters (amateur or pro) have good chins (even those with what are considered weak chins in the pros have chins well beyond what most non pros have) and can hit really hard -- and this comes from natural selection: those without good chins and without the ability to hit hard are fodder for those who can.

Train boxing for a while and you'll see what I mean.

How about answering my question?
Which skilled pro/amatuer fighters have you been training with?

[SAAMAG]

Stop putting F U C K ING words in my mouth. I never said all pros hit like Tyson. I said they all hit HARD. To fight at that level -- pro -- they must hit hard to survive. They wouldn't even get to that level without hitting HARD.

It's like saying you can be a pro baseball player (other than a pitcher) and not bat well. You simply won't make it to the pros if you don't.

I didn't put words in your mouth, you said that all pro's hit hard. Well...no they don't...it's all relative. We have pro's at the local MMA gym, granted they're low on the totem pole as pro's but they don't hit harder than all the guys at the gym to include those that don't fight as pro's but just train to train.

Maggliano or however you spell it doesn't hit hard compared to his counterparts. It's common knowledge and everyone talks about it. Commentators, other fighters, and the like.



What I mean is that the most feather-fisted pro boxers out there hits many times harder than you or anyone (except other pro fighters) on this forum ever will. If you got in the ring with a pro boxer you'd wet yourself. If you haven't done it, you just don't know what it is like, how fast they are, how hard they hit, how amazing their timing. No one is a great boxer who can't hit really, really HARD.

What I find amazing is that people who have never done it, never experienced it, have these firm ideas based on their complete lack of experience.

Honestly, you have no idea how hard anyone on this forum hits. Pro's are still people, and the power they can generate comes from the same bodies that we all possess. They don't have superhuman muscles or technique, they just have well refined training and sometimes just good genetics as well.

To think that the word "pro" implies that they can generate more power than anyone else out there is absurd. They're going to be better at what they do than most, but not all, and there will be variances in the many facets of fighting skills.

[shawchemical]

Stop putting F U C K ING words in my mouth. I never said all pros hit like Tyson. I said they all hit HARD. To fight at that level -- pro -- they must hit hard to survive. They wouldn't even get to that level without hitting HARD.



JOE CALZAGHE.

Hits like a wet fish, no technique, just lots of stamina and lots of poorly targetted, but fast flying leather.

Doesn't hit hard. But is a hell of a scrapper simply because of the heart the guy shows.

Anyone can hit hard moron, it's not just the "pros" who can land a hard shot. A boxer doesn't even have to hit hard at all. They just have to land shots and score points. Generally that's the reason its considered that a good boxer will beat a good fighter in a sanctioned match. The tactics they use do NOT cross over to a real brawl on the streets. They work in the restricted environment of the ring, where points are given for putting your glove on the other man's face, regardless of how much power is behind it.

[shawchemical]

I don't give a sh1t what you or some of the other idiots believe.

There are people who will go out and seek out these experience for themselves and then there are people like you and Victor, who won't, but who believe they they nevertheless really "know".

I've posted before the gyms I train at, and I spar with the people who train there. I've also attended seminars, and had privates with some good people. But it's not a question of the experiences I've had but the ones you haven't had that is relevant to this discussion.

If you do that work, and gain that experience, then you will come to see things in a different light. It's not a question of skill but having the experience.

Here's the best MT fighter alive today sparring with people at seminar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hhIGfMqfUQ

if you think he's just playing around (and there is some of that), you should know that's pretty much how he fights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gi8OXK6VwU

So, if you want to spar with good people, you can attend their seminar (the good ones will spar with all the attendees) or you can do privates (even have one come to your school or gym).

Or, you can take a conventional route and just join a good gym. It's not difficult to get to train with good fighters -- that is a part of any GOOD gym. If you go join a good MMA gym or a good MT gym or a good boxing gym or a good BJJ gym, you will spar with just about everybody, as the sparring is why everyone is there in the first place.

If you don't believe that is the case, then go to a good gym and find out for yourself.

The best??

Buakaw por Pramuk is better.

[anerlich]

I'll bet Phil Redmond can hit pretty hard.

[YungChun]

Here's the best MT fighter alive today sparring with people at seminar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hhIGfMqfUQ

if you think he's just playing around (and there is some of that), you should know that's pretty much how he fights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gi8OXK6VwU

So, if you want to spar with good people, you can attend their seminar (the good ones will spar with all the attendees) or you can do privates (even have one come to your school or gym).


To me this underscores that it's not so much which moves/techniques or how many from what, etc, but who is doing them...........attributes..

[anerlich]

Now, go back and take your medication.

That's pretty funny coming from someone whose posts indicate he's far more in need of anger management than any other poster on the forum. Spitting bile like Sybil Fawlty's "benzedrine puff adder."

[t_niehoff]

To me this underscores that it's not so much which moves/techniques or how many from what, etc, but who is doing them...........attributes..

And where do you think fighting attributes come from? Fighting.

[t_niehoff]

No youre response to everything is " go find a good gym" guess what old man? i've been there done that and your posts point to it being obvious you havent done the same thing,


That's my answer to almost everything since that is the answer to most things.

But you haven't really done that -- you've not done significant training at a good gym. If you did, you wouldn't be saying the nonsense that you are.

For example, I know not all BJJ people agree on everything, but they all do agree on some things. For example, no person who has done significant BJJ training at a good gym would say that WCK prepares you in any way for the ground. They would know better since they would know what it takes to be prepared for the ground.



You honestly expect us to believe some over the hill scrub who admitted he wasted what was it 17 years learning bad wing chun all the sudden made the switch to a good gym and is training with pros all the time at your age ? ahahahahahahahahah!!!


I don't really care what you believe.

But, apparently you can't read or understand what I've written.

I didn't spend 17 years learning bad WCK -- I spent 17 years training WCK without having all the fundamentals of WCK, some of the things I have been talking about. And since I lacked these fundamentals, I could never make my WCK work to my satisfaction. Then, after I joined the WCML and heard Robert, Andreas, Rene, and others talking about certain things I didn't learn, I made an effort to go learn them. Why does this matter to you when you don't even tr4ain WCK?

As far as training at a good gym, you are only as good as your training/sparring partners. I never said all I do is train with pros. Hardly. I train at places that produce pros and amateur fighters -- I seek out good places because I want to learn and develop.

I already have pointed out which gyms I train at, what do you care about the names of people I train with for? So then you can say things like "you get your ass kicked by him?!!" This from a guy who trains where and with whom?



why wont you name a single pro you train with then?why is that so hard to do?

and please dont blather on any more about boxing .

you dont even understand youre own art dont try to pretend you do with others:rolleyes:

I don't claim to be a good boxer, just having trained a bit in boxing at a decent gym -- something you haven't done.

[t_niehoff]

I didn't put words in your mouth, you said that all pro's hit hard. Well...no they don't...it's all relative.


Yes, they do. Some pros hit harder than others, but they all hit hard.



We have pro's at the local MMA gym, granted they're low on the totem pole as pro's but they don't hit harder than all the guys at the gym to include those that don't fight as pro's but just train to train.


You're not talking about pro BOXERS.



Maggliano or however you spell it doesn't hit hard compared to his counterparts. It's common knowledge and everyone talks about it. Commentators, other fighters, and the like.


Of course he may not hit as hard as some other pros -- but all pros hit hard. He wouldn't be a pro if he couldn't hit hard. It's like pro baseball players, they all bat well or they wouldn't be pros. Some pros bat better than others certainly, but all of them are way ahead of the curve when it comes to nonpros.



Honestly, you have no idea how hard anyone on this forum hits. Pro's are still people, and the power they can generate comes from the same bodies that we all possess. They don't have superhuman muscles or technique, they just have well refined training and sometimes just good genetics as well.


Sure -- just like all people who play baseball have the same bodies. Does that mean that non pro baseball players can bat like pros? Of course not. What makes them pros is that they have better mechanics, use their body better, etc.



To think that the word "pro" implies that they can generate more power than anyone else out there is absurd. They're going to be better at what they do than most, but not all, and there will be variances in the many facets of fighting skills.

It's not the word, but the process people go through to become a pro athlete that makes the difference. Is it absurd to think that pro athletes are better or have better attributes?

[k gledhill]

Sure you have -- in your fantasy world. I'm sure you just go around KOing people. Your hands are, after all, made of granite! It must frighten you possessing the awesome power that you do.

Now, go back and take your medication. And stop listening to the voices.



Yes, yes, not only are you KOing one person, but you fight multiple opponents. I see. And does this take place on Earth or on the astral plain?



Ingenious! Hip and elbow -- you're a genius.



It's OK, I'm not scared -- I've been in WCK for a long time, I'm used to dealing with deluded people. WCK people aren't scary, they are harmless enough except to themselves.



Sure, sure, whatever you say. Don't get yourself riled up now. Just take calming deep breaths, take your medication, and stop listening to the voices. They are not your friends.


Being in WCK a long time means little Terence, as you are proving to us all. Its the quality of what you learn.

Your the deluded one , and soooo deluded it isnt funny anymore. You dont know what I
have done ;) I could care less. You seem to have this 'prove it' lawyer mind....lawyers why are there so many jokes about them ? hmmmm:D

your well is deep.

[m1k3]

And where do you think fighting attributes come from? Fighting.

Sorry to disagree here t. but there are a lot of attributes used in fighting that are developed outside of fighting. Strength, endurance and flexibility. Fighting, by itself, like any other sport will not take you your best at these skills. There is specific training that is done for them.

[SAAMAG]

Yes, they do. Some pros hit harder than others, but they all hit hard.



You're not talking about pro BOXERS.



Of course he may not hit as hard as some other pros -- but all pros hit hard. He wouldn't be a pro if he couldn't hit hard. It's like pro baseball players, they all bat well or they wouldn't be pros. Some pros bat better than others certainly, but all of them are way ahead of the curve when it comes to nonpros.



Sure -- just like all people who play baseball have the same bodies. Does that mean that non pro baseball players can bat like pros? Of course not. What makes them pros is that they have better mechanics, use their body better, etc.



It's not the word, but the process people go through to become a pro athlete that makes the difference. Is it absurd to think that pro athletes are better or have better attributes?

No not specifically talking about pro boxers...though that's where the conversation started. Again, "hard" is a relative term, but I get what you're saying. In other words they have to hit hard enough for their other pro colleagues to respect them, which generally would imply that they have to hit at a certain level of power. I get that.

The problem is at what point is something considered a "hard" punch? Plenty of guys can hit with one punch KO power. Being pro has more to do with the total package, and not a single area of attribute.

The absurd part is thinking no one else can achieve the same power or that pro's hit harder than anyone else on the planet, or to be against the notion that some pro's might hit less hard than some non-pro's. Fighting requires more than just power...being a professional fighter requires a full range of skills and anyone one person could be lacking in an area. Not a big deal.

[goju]

That's my answer to almost everything since that is the answer to most things.
it's your answer because you're nothing more than delusional fraud who has been busted on your bull****:D


But you haven't really done that -- you've not done significant training at a good gym. If you did, you wouldn't be saying the nonsense that you are.

Saying what nonsense? That your backround is questionable and dubious at best because you never give a strait forward and honest answer?

A. You wasted 17 years of your life learning at a worthless wing chun school and after AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL that time you magically had an epiphany of sorts and "saw the light" like a religious convert and began training hard at a quality gym with quality people who you claim are pro fighters.

B. You're training with pro fighters despite the fact that you never competed AT ALL, are a bit too old to be able to put yourself through the training pros go through and to top it off would have very little skill to work with being that you wasted a big chunk of your life learning what you admitted was poor quality wc.

C. You claim to have made your wing chun work yet you take to over complicating what was intended to be a simple art with your circle talking often contradictory nonsense.

To make it worse for all your constant criticism of how everyone is doing wing chun wrong you have ALWAYS turned down an oppurtunity to cross hands with ANYONE in the wc community. Why is this? If they are all doing it wrong they shouldn't pose much of a threat to someone as knowledgeable as you. I mean come on not only are you one of the chosen few who know what it really takes to make wc work, you also cross train all the time with the elite but yet you're terrified to meet up with any of these clueless theoretical non fighters who dont train with quality people in quality methods like you do .

Now you do realize that the majority of rational people would think you are so full of it your eyes are turning brown based off of this do you not?


I don't really care what you believe.

Of course you do you care what everyone believes other wise you wouldn't have spent years defending yourself on here and babbling on for pages as you tend to do.


But, apparently you can't read or understand what I've written.

Hate to break it to you little fella but you are not hard to understand.

Allow me to some it up your posts for you.

I know real wing chun blah blah blah blah attached fighting blah blah youre doing wc wrong blah blah blah go find a real gym blah blah blah

wash, rinse, repeat.


I didn't spend 17 years learning bad WCK -- I spent 17 years training WCK without having all the fundamentals of WCK,

So you did learn bad wing chun. If you're not learning the fundamentals of your art in that long of a period then you were essentially training at what they call a "mc'dojo"

Whats shocking is how long it took you to realize you were learning crap.I mean for some one who believes themselves to be intelligent it's kind of funny( well more than kind of) that it took you this long to wake up as you claim you have.:D


I train at places that produce pros and amateur fighters

Ah so you're one of those guys who thinks because they happened to occasionally show up at a gym professional and amateur fighters work out at that this some how makes you look good? ha! if that isnt a typical larper attitude than i dont know what is.


I already have pointed out which gyms I train at, what do you care about the names of people I train with for? So then you can say things like "you get your ass kicked by him?!!" This from a guy who trains where and with whom?

No. all you've done is given links to places and out right refused to say who were your coaches and who these pro fighters you trained with and sparred. Which points to you either lying about going to those gyms at at all or only staying for a very short time and exaggerating your experience there.

I trained at t'sko. trevor whittman was the boxing coach, tom sarah was the kickboxing coach, and the bjj instructor was a direct student under royce and jonathan krauss (krautch?)

The amateur cage fighter i sparred with the most was jeremiah record.

See that was easy so why cant you do the same? You apparently are the more knowledgeable and experienced out of the kfm forum group so im sure you can produce a much longer list than mine. That is unless of course you are lying which we all know you are clearly doing :D :rolleyes:



I don't claim to be a good boxer, just having trained a bit in boxing at a decent gym -- something you haven't done.

So you trained "a bit" at a gym and now youre telling people they dont know what they are talking about when it comes to boxing? AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

[t_niehoff]

C. You claim to have made your wing chun work yet you take to over complicating what was intended to be a simple art with your circle talking often contradictory nonsense.


You don't even practice WCK, so what do you know of the art?

If what I say appears contradictory to you it is because you don't have a very good grasp of things.



To make it worse for all your constant criticism of how everyone is doing wing chun wrong you have ALWAYS turned down an oppurtunity to cross hands with ANYONE in the wc community. Why is this?


Crossing hands is a silly term.

No I haven't. I've met many people in WCK, including some on this forum (Dave, Marty, Rene, Robert, Van's instructor, etc.). What I have turned down is the "opportunity" to go out of my way (lkike traveling across the country) to show people what I do.



If they are all doing it wrong they shouldn't pose much of a threat to someone as knowledgeable as you. I mean come on not only are you one of the chosen few who know what it really takes to make wc work, you also cross train all the time with the elite but yet you're terrified to meet up with any of these clueless theoretical non fighters who dont train with quality people in quality methods like you do .


They don't pose any threat to me. If they can't even beat white belt MMA trainees, why do I want to seek them out? What are they going to teach me? How not to do it?



Now you do realize that the majority of rational people would think you are so full of it your eyes are turning brown based off of this do you not?


There are very, very few rational people practicing WCK. You certainly aren't one. :)



Of course you do you care what everyone believes other wise you wouldn't have spent years defending yourself on here and babbling on for pages as you tend to do.


Bzzz. Sorry. No, you've got it all wrong. I post here to provide a different POV than what "the majority" present. I could care less if "the majority" like it, don't like it, hate me, don't give a sh1t, etc. We're just sharing our views. Don't get your panties in a wad over it, Nancy.

BTW, since WCK is represented by "the majority" and "the majority" can't fight their way out of a paper bag, is it "rational" to keep doing things and keep thinking in ways that have proved themselves over and over again not to produce good results? What do you call it when people keep doing the same things and expecting different results?



Hate to break it to you little fella but you are not hard to understand.

Allow me to some it up your posts for you.

I know real wing chun blah blah blah blah attached fighting blah blah youre doing wc wrong blah blah blah go find a real gym blah blah blah

wash, rinse, repeat.


Which only shows that you don't understand. There is no such thing as "the real wing chun."

WCK's classical method involves attached fighting. Can you do WCK without being attached? Sure. Caveman WCK, running in with the straight blast, is one way. It's low level WCK, but it is WCK.

If someone uses only WCK movement, tools, etc. in their fighting, then they are using WCK. It's that simple. And if they aren't using WCK movement, then they aren't using WCK. That's simple too. How do we know what is WCK movement? By looking at the WCK forms, drills, etc. which catalogs that movement.



So you did learn bad wing chun. If you're not learning the fundamentals of your art in that long of a period then you were essentially training at what they call a "mc'dojo"


What do you know of the fundamentals of WCK? Nothing.



Whats shocking is how long it took you to realize you were learning crap.I mean for some one who believes themselves to be intelligent it's kind of funny( well more than kind of) that it took you this long to wake up as you claim you have.:D


Well, if I was stupid, what does it say about most of the people here -- and you -- who still don't realize that you are missing key aspects of the WCK curriculum?

FWIW, I knew I was missing something, but I didn't know where to find it. You, and some others, aren't even that aware (you're missing it and you don't know it). Even worse, when it is pointed out to you, you still won't see it!



Ah so you're one of those guys who thinks because they happened to occasionally show up at a gym professional and amateur fighters work out at that this some how makes you look good? ha! if that isnt a typical larper attitude than i dont know what is.


No, I'm someone who trains at some good gyms. Anyone can do that. It's no big deal.



No. all you've done is given links to places and out right refused to say who were your coaches and who these pro fighters you trained with and sparred. Which points to you either lying about going to those gyms at at all or only staying for a very short time and exaggerating your experience there.

I trained at t'sko. trevor whittman was the boxing coach, tom sarah was the kickboxing coach, and the bjj instructor was a direct student under royce and jonathan krauss (krautch?)

The amateur cage fighter i sparred with the most was jeremiah record.

See that was easy so why cant you do the same? You apparently are the more knowledgeable and experienced out of the kfm forum group so im sure you can produce a much longer list than mine. That is unless of course you are lying which we all know you are clearly doing :D :rolleyes:


You haven't trained. You're full of sh1t. If you had trained, you would be mostly in agreement with Dale (who could run a MMA academy) and the other guys who train MMA. That's because people with similar experiences tend to share similar views.

The people who REALLY train can tell. People like you are just dingleberries on the ass of WCK.

[LoneTiger108]

WCK's classical method involves attached fighting. Can you do WCK without being attached? Sure. Caveman WCK, running in with the straight blast, is one way. It's low level WCK, but it is WCK.

C'mon! You are your own worst enemy sometimes dude. If what you say above is true, then what you say below is just, well... NOT true! :p


If someone uses only WCK movement, tools, etc. in their fighting, then they are using WCK. It's that simple. And if they aren't using WCK movement, then they aren't using WCK. That's simple too. How do we know what is WCK movement? By looking at the WCK forms, drills, etc. which catalogs that movement.

Wing Chun 'movements' need no attachment Terence (although they work especially well when they ARE attached!) Not everyone who doesn't think like you are cavemen. A boxer isn't a caveman. And a Wing Chun man can stand guard and attack whenever he pleases imho ;)

[t_niehoff]

C'mon! You are your own worst enemy sometimes dude. If what you say above is true, then what you say below is just, well... NOT true! :p


This is part of the problem -- I'm dealing with people who are significantly lacking in reasoning skills.

The method (faat mun) is an approach, a strategy to using the art's tools (or to put it more accurately, the tools are to implement the strategy), but people can elect not to use that approach and try to use the tools in other ways.

Caveman WCK - charging in with the straight blast -- uses WCK tools, but only in a very limited way. And it is a low percentage tactic.



Wing Chun 'movements' need no attachment Terence (although they work especially well when they ARE attached!) Not everyone who doesn't think like you are cavemen. A boxer isn't a caveman. And a Wing Chun man can stand guard and attack whenever he pleases imho ;)

Sure, that's your opinion -- and it is one shared by many. The problem is when people begin to fight unattached, all the WCK goes out the window. We see this over and over again.

Boxing is an unattached fighting method.

[Wayfaring]

Bzzz. Sorry. No, you've got it all wrong. I post here to provide a different POV than what "the majority" present. I could care less if "the majority" like it, don't like it, hate me, don't give a sh1t, etc. We're just sharing our views. Don't get your panties in a wad over it, Nancy.


Annnndddddd - T's back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGZ1Zq3CIMY

"This looks like a job for me,
So everybody, just follow me
We need a little controversy
Because it feels so empty without me"

just joshing you a little ;)

[goju]

You don't even practice WCK, so what do you know of the art?

People who complicate a martial art regardless of what it is always do this because they are trying to cover up the fact they dont have a clue what they are doing so they fill the gap in their training with a bunch of mumbo jumbo they market as a new way of training their art :rolleyes:


If what I say appears contradictory to you it is because you don't have a very good grasp of things.

Aaaaand you saying this is getting old. As ive said when you're the only one who supposedly understands yourself then the issues you not us slappy.


Crossing hands is a silly term.

I thought you would like it since you seem to be full of ridiculous terms like this.


No I haven't. I've met many people in WCK, including some on this forum (Dave, Marty, Rene, Robert, Van's instructor, etc.). What I have turned down is the "opportunity" to go out of my way (lkike traveling across the country) to show people what I do.

keyword is MET. you never sparred with a single one of them because you are all talk.



They don't pose any threat to me. If they can't even beat white belt MMA trainees, why do I want to seek them out? What are they going to teach me? How not to do it?

LOL Do you realize who you are old man? You're A NOBODY just like the majority of the board here. you've never competed or turned out students who have done the same. hell your greatest claim to fame in MA is posting on this board so don't even try to pretend youre any better than the rest of the posters here you delusional larper.



There are very, very few rational people practicing WCK. You certainly aren't one. :)

yep nothing says rational like a 50 year old whos never fought or ever taught anyone telling people they dont know what they are doing and more importantly calling people theoretical non fighters.


BTW, since WCK is represented by "the majority" and "the majority" can't fight their way out of a paper bag, is it "rational" ?

and you are part of that majority as you have never fought or have even the slighest evidence you have ever sparred in your life,


What do you know of the fundamentals of WCK? Nothing.

If you are not being taught the fundamentals thuroughly you are going to lousy school there is no way to argue around this.



Well, if I was stupid, what does it say about most of the people here -- and you -- who still don't realize that you are missing key aspects of the WCK curriculum?

FWIW, I knew I was missing something, but I didn't know where to find it. You, and some others, aren't even that aware (you're missing it and you don't know it). Even worse, when it is pointed out to you, you still won't see it!

ah and here comes the religious convert babble about finding the light and trying to convert others to your religion (sigh) You really dont see how ridiculous you look to everyone else do you? XD



You haven't trained. You're full of sh1t. If you had trained, you would be mostly in agreement with Dale (who could run a MMA academy) and the other guys who train MMA. That's because people with similar experiences tend to share similar views.

The people who REALLY train can tell. People like you are just dingleberries on the ass of WCK.
So your rational is i that if you keep your head crammed up dales old ass this some how makes you look like you are a legit martial artist? LMAO!

If anything this points to you being a fraud! a legit martial artist doesnt have to ride someones jock to make themselves look good! you simply do this to attempt to mask the fact youve never done anything.Sorry terrence but clinging to dale's coat tails just makes you look like sad pathetic wee man :p

i cant believe im saying this but i feel a bit sorry for dale. I can see why he doesnt come around much anymore . I wouldnt either if some guy was following me around like a puppy dog and clinging to my every word. Its a bit creepy really...well more than a bit lol

congrats again on not answering who you trained under and which competitors you sparred with. :D

[t_niehoff]

People who complicate a martial art regardless of what it is always do this because they are trying to cover up the fact they dont have a clue what they are doing so they fill the gap in their training with a bunch of mumbo jumbo they market as a new way of training their art :rolleyes:


So you don't know WCK, and you don't practice it, yet you believe you can intelligently discuss it. Right.

That about sums it all up.



LOL Do you realize who you are old man? You're A NOBODY just like the majority of the board here. you've never competed or turned out students who have done the same. hell your greatest claim to fame in MA is posting on this board so don't even try to pretend youre any better than the rest of the posters here you delusional larper.


Hey, I never claimed to be anything special. People here just get upset because I say they are nothing special. I am just a WCK practitioner. Unlike you.



yep nothing says rational like a 50 year old whos never fought or ever taught anyone telling people they dont know what they are doing and more importantly calling people theoretical non fighters.


You have no idea what I've done. If you train MMA, you fight. If you train MT, you fight. If you train BJJ, you fight.

I am not telling anyone to believe what I say because I say it -- I tell them to go find out for themselves, to seek out proven good fighters, etc. So, what is wrong with that?



and you are part of that majority as you have never fought or have even the slighest evidence you have ever sparred in your life,


I know you aren't very bright -- actually you seem exceptionally stupid -- but try to grasp this simple reasoning: it is not about me or what I have done. None of that matters SINCE -- now pay attention -- SINCE I am not trying to prove anything or to rely on some authority. I am telling people to go see for themselves.

My sparring and my experience can't and won't help you or anyone else. You don't listen to Dale and I think even you will agree that he has put in loads more time than you. You see?



If you are not being taught the fundamentals thuroughly you are going to lousy school there is no way to argue around this.


The problem is that 99.9 % of people in WCK aren't being taught the fundamentals thoroughly.



ah and here comes the religious convert babble about finding the light and trying to convert others to your religion (sigh) You really dont see how ridiculous you look to everyone else do you? XD


By "everyone else", you mean people like you? I really don't care how I look to people like you.

The reality is that no one can change anyone else's mind. I am not trying to. I am merely presenting a different POV. Now, if people go out and get the right kind of experience (like sparring with some good fighters and seeing whether they can do what they train to do), then they will begin to see the value in what I am saying.



So your rational is i that if you keep your head crammed up dales old ass this some how makes you look like you are a legit martial artist? LMAO!

If anything this points to you being a fraud! a legit martial artist doesnt have to ride someones jock to make themselves look good! you simply do this to attempt to mask the fact youve never done anything.Sorry terrence but clinging to dale's coat tails just makes you look like sad pathetic wee man :p

i cant believe im saying this but i feel a bit sorry for dale. I can see why he doesnt come around much anymore . I wouldnt either if some guy was following me around like a puppy dog and clinging to my every word. Its a bit creepy really...well more than a bit lol


I am only using Dale as an example to show how dishonest you are. You act like knowing my training partners will in some way make a difference to you, but it won't. Nothing will change your mind. You are stuck in your little theoretical bubble. You don't even practice WCK but come here to talk WCK! Can you get any more theoretical?

[goju]

So you don't know WCK, and you don't practice it, yet you believe you can intelligently discuss it. Right.

I would say years spent not even getting the fundamentals down plus a few hours in chu wc doesnt really elevate you over anything other than newb level t.

But of course like with your "bit" of boxing you studied that qualifies you to tell others how to train correctly LOL


Hey, I never claimed to be anything special. People here just get upset because I say they are nothing special. I am just a WCK practitioner. Unlike you.
Actually you insinuated you were better than the other wc players here because they couldnt even handle a white belt.

What belt rank do you hold in a grappling art by the way? you keep refusing to answer this.



You have no idea what I've done. If you train MMA, you fight. If you train MT, you fight. If you train BJJ, you fight.

so by your statement youve done none of the above since you've never fought Correct?


I am not telling anyone to believe what I say because I say it -- I tell them to go find out for themselves, to seek out proven good fighters, etc. So, what is wrong with that?

The problem is you assume they arent and for all youre talk and wanting others to show evidence of themselves doing this you have NEVER provided any of this yourself. Which of course makes you a hypocrite.



I know you aren't very bright -- actually you seem exceptionally stupid -- but try to grasp this simple reasoning: it is not about me or what I have done. None of that matters SINCE -- now pay attention -- SINCE I am not trying to prove anything or to rely on some authority. I am telling people to go see for themselves.

have you ever heard the term practice what you preach? if you cant do what you are saying than what business do you have babbling on about it all the time.?How do you know what you state can even be done if you cant do it?


The problem is that 99.9 % of people in WCK aren't being taught the fundamentals thoroughly.

If the fundamentals are learned you cant progress anywhere with the art and who says this small percent you think youre a part of is doing it right? simply stating so doesnt make it true.



By "everyone else", you mean people like you? I really don't care how I look to people like you.

if this were true you wouldnt have made up you "computer shop" story to excuse your cowardly running away from phils challenge


The reality is that no one can change anyone else's mind. I am not trying to. I am merely presenting a different POV. Now, if people go out and get the right kind of experience (like sparring with some good fighters and seeing whether they can do what they train to do), then they will begin to see the value in what I am saying.

so essentially youre just stating the obvious and arguing for something that is in practiced with thousand of martial artists around the world....wow impressive:rolleyes:


I am only using Dale as an example to show how dishonest you are. You act like knowing my training partners will in some way make a difference to you, but it won't.
you accuse others of not training with anyone noteworthy but when people ask you who you specifically trained with you shut down immediately and wont answer the question and some how this doesnt make you look dishonest or like youre hiding something?

and you are using dale because clinging on to his leg like a dog in heat is all you have to try to make you look good. unfortunately its not working


Nothing will change your mind.

of course not because you will never say who you train with therefore you are nothing but a delusional wanna be living in his own little fantasy land.

last time i checked you dont practice karate,boxing,grappling, and assortment of other arts you continue to talk about but let me guess either you being buddy buddy with father time on here makes that okay?:D

[LoneTiger108]

This is part of the problem -- I'm dealing with people who are significantly lacking in reasoning skills.

The method (faat mun) is an approach, a strategy to using the art's tools (or to put it more accurately, the tools are to implement the strategy), but people can elect not to use that approach and try to use the tools in other ways.

This faat mun, is it a new expression to sum up your understanding of the kuit!?


Caveman WCK - charging in with the straight blast -- uses WCK tools, but only in a very limited way. And it is a low percentage tactic.

All I was meaning about the caveman label is that I feel you use it in a derogatory way, when it IS still one of the most functional tools in the wing chun arsenal imho. Stopped many a karate guy back in the 70's so I heard! :D But iI understand people are familiar with it now and if you fly blind expect to be taken down.


The problem is when people begin to fight unattached, all the WCK goes out the window. We see this over and over again.

Maybe because we ONLY see people who WANT to show their new-found skills. You need to meet more seasoned chunners I think and the web definitely needs to be used more by the older generations. Thing is, most of them probably just sit back and laugh at the state of Wing Chun today. :o

[anerlich]

the web definitely needs to be used more by the older generations. Thing is, most of them probably just sit back and laugh at the state of Wing Chun today.

Don't know why they'd laugh. After all, the state of WC today was down to them.

Do you laugh at your own failures?

[chusauli]

I agree with Andrew.

They should be crying for the mess they passed on, not testing the art, getting caught in the Bruce Lee hype, putting teachers on a pedestal, poor teaching, poor translation, holding back, secrecy, greed, and so on. We inherited this poor state.

We, in turn, have to clean up this mess. Gents, I think this is the last generation of WCK - it has no value to the world and MMA laughs at the foolishness of the art and the people. What would you propose to make changes?

[SAAMAG]

I agree with Andrew.

They should be crying for the mess they passed on, not testing the art, getting caught in the Bruce Lee hype, putting teachers on a pedestal, poor teaching, poor translation, holding back, secrecy, greed, and so on. We inherited this poor state.

We, in turn, have to clean up this mess. Gents, I think this is the last generation of WCK - it has no value to the world and MMA laughs at the foolishness of the art and the people. What would you propose to make changes?

Pretty much what Alan Orr is doing. By that I mean taking wing chun and showing it's effectiveness in the venue that people have chosen to be the newest proving ground.

[Hendrik]

WTF? are you suggesting you identify more with hendrik Santo than Bruce Lee you may not agree with Bruce on everything but you have to admit he was always in shape, an arduous student and a proven fighter!






Leave me out of your problem.

Your problem is not me, your problem is you cant proof your own root of WCK after a decade of selling your story based on the top guy of past revolution which is NON existed in the history of China. If you disagree, show us here a solid evidence.

No one could stop the revealing of the facts in history. you cant stop that by trying to discredit me in any story making way.
and in fact, the more you do it the more you reveal what you really lack and fear of.



You speak of Energy space, you behavior is just showing you dont have a solid root chakra connection, thus always behave in an insecure way. Like an animal in fear.

Since you dont even have this awareness of the root chakra connection, it is a NONsense for you to speak about Energy, Space, root of WCK.....etc.

As for ZEN or Buddhism which you on and off claim as your root, my advise to you is dont even go near, you make a big fool out of yourself.


I hope you are smart enough to handle you own mind. Solve your own problem.

[chusauli]

...Oh yes, and I forgot, false lineages, made up stories, his-story, pretending to be sages, false monks, people playing dress up, putting on exhalted status, enlightened beings, grand poo-bah titles, commercial contracts, McKwoons/McDojos, fighting off multiple attackers, students who are brand loyal, and internet flame wars...

But it all has a virtue of teaching tolerance and patience.

"Words hard against the ear are (sometimes) good medicine", as Master Hsuan Hua said, and this goes for me and everyone else.

[chusauli]

FWIW, I think Bruce Lee was great and put WCK on the map - but millions fled to WCK to be just like him...

he was in great shape...

...he was an ardent student...

...as for fighting, he had a few streetfights and a few challenge matches.

[Wayfaring]

...Oh yes, and I forgot, false lineages, made up stories, his-story, pretending to be sages, false monks, people playing dress up, putting on exhalted status, enlightened beings, grand poo-bah titles, commercial contracts, McKwoons/McDojos, fighting off multiple attackers, students who are brand loyal, and internet flame wars...


,d@mn ozzie kickboxers, blues-guitar-playing wc sifus, canucks taking breaks from watching hockey, new yawkas, old marines' challenge matches, 'genuine kung fu', lawyers who play tennis (not that there's anything wrong with that), & pictures of scantily clad young ladies.....

my god the suffering in the WCK community on these interwebz forums

[t_niehoff]

This faat mun, is it a new expression to sum up your understanding of the kuit!?


No, that faat mun is a separate part of the core WCK curriculum.



All I was meaning about the caveman label is that I feel you use it in a derogatory way, when it IS still one of the most functional tools in the wing chun arsenal imho. Stopped many a karate guy back in the 70's so I heard! :D But iI understand people are familiar with it now and if you fly blind expect to be taken down.


It's not "one of the most functional tools" -- it MAY work against scrubs or someone who has never seen it (and is taken by surprise), but it is very easily handled.



Maybe because we ONLY see people who WANT to show their new-found skills. You need to meet more seasoned chunners I think and the web definitely needs to be used more by the older generations. Thing is, most of them probably just sit back and laugh at the state of Wing Chun today. :o

Yes, yes, this is the old there-are-giants-in-hiding view. Some people are really gullible.

[anerlich]

instead of always acting like a gossip and drama queen on the internet

Sheesh. What else does anyone do on the internet?

[chusauli]

The great Sri Dhammananda told a story:

A great Indian sage, Venerable Dipankara, was invited to Tibet to teach. He brought with him a quarrelsome, irreseponsible and bad cook. After observing for some time, the Tibetans respectfully approached and said, "Master, why do you tolerate this useless cook of yours? He is more of a nuisance than a help. We would gladly tend to your needs."

The Master smiled and replied, "You don't understand, I do not keep him as my servant, but as my teacher."

The Tibetans were surprised and asked, "How is this so?"

The master explained, "You see, his inefficiency and quarrelsome nature teach me to practice patience and tolerance everyday, therefore, I value him."
---------------------------

Of this subject, I know life is short and uncertain; but death is certain. We all suffer so much, we grow old, we get sick, we die. Another few decades is all we expect to have. We can die tomorrow...

Is it really worth this silly bickering?

----------------------------

[Hendrik]

Robert,

You are right.

This 1970's HongKong's song said it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDQWfJIrvBI&feature=related

But after 40 years still not too many learn and ofcorse lots / millions in ASIA who head the song have passed away.

[Wayfaring]

Is it really worth this silly bickering?

Of course it is. It teaches us to practice patience and tolerance everyday, that's why we value it.

:D:D:D

[LoneTiger108]

Wow! Just caught up with the 'developments' of this thread! :( Have yet to read and catch up, but at first site it looks like things got a bit heated on here...

[LoneTiger108]

Don't know why they'd laugh. After all, the state of WC today was down to them.

Do you laugh at your own failures?

No it wasn't. Not in the UK anyway. The elders only taught who wanted to learn and it was those eager individuals that spread the art without 'teacher training' imho!

I must admit, I think the UK Wing Chun scene is one of the strongest in the World. We've had Chun here for ages, since the fifties, and THAT family still exists too (as I'm a part of it!) The numbers may not be as much as the rest of Europe, but the quality speaks for itself.


I agree with Andrew.

They should be crying for the mess they passed on, not testing the art, getting caught in the Bruce Lee hype, putting teachers on a pedestal, poor teaching, poor translation, holding back, secrecy, greed, and so on. We inherited this poor state.

We, in turn, have to clean up this mess. Gents, I think this is the last generation of WCK - it has no value to the world and MMA laughs at the foolishness of the art and the people. What would you propose to make changes?

You may have done Robert. But don't speak for me! I think that many others have CONTRIBUTED to this poor state to be honest. As they say, "clean up your own house first before trying to clean others!" And this is what I think is actually happening.

There will never be a 'last generation' imho. We are eternal, as is Martial Arts itself.

[anerlich]

No it wasn't. Not in the UK anyway. The elders only taught who wanted to learn and it was those eager individuals that spread the art without 'teacher training' imho!


Even less reason for them to laugh. If the student turns out poor, it is the teachers' fault.

Just take your foot out of your mouth and stop posting rubbish, OK?

[LoneTiger108]

Even less reason for them to laugh. If the student turns out poor, it is the teachers' fault.

Just take your foot out of your mouth and stop posting rubbish, OK?

:D Only if you agree to do the same!

WHEN did I say the student turns out poor??!! You guys just love to fill in details yourselves don't you? I thought (AGAIN!) that I was quite clear! HOW can it be the teachers fault if the student they taught, who is now opening their own school (in another country or area) NEVER got taught to teach in the first place?!

Seriously. Don't take this personally, but were you taught to teach by your Wing Chun Sifu? Was your own Sifu taught to teach?? Believe me, fme there are very very few practitioners like this out there which is why I feel for students who have trained for so many years but know practically nothing about the art itself.

[canglong]

Dave,
LOL not very often you have to teach someone the meaning of a parable they just employed. Just another sign of the arrogance spewing from the mouth of babes trying to control the ways of nature.

[LoneTiger108]

Dave,
LOL not very often you have to teach someone the meaning of a parable they just employed. Just another sign of the arrogance spewing from the mouth of babes trying to control the ways of nature.

So I guess you blame the teachers too? :rolleyes: By the way, are you calling me a 'babe'? Am I arrogant? I don't think so. Just honest.

[anerlich]

The great Sri Dhammananda told a story:

A great Indian sage, Venerable Dipankara, was invited to Tibet to teach. He brought with him a quarrelsome, irreseponsible and bad cook. After observing for some time, the Tibetans respectfully approached and said, "Master, why do you tolerate this useless cook of yours? He is more of a nuisance than a help. We would gladly tend to your needs."

The Master smiled and replied, "You don't understand, I do not keep him as my servant, but as my teacher."

The Tibetans were surprised and asked, "How is this so?"

The master explained, "You see, his inefficiency and quarrelsome nature teach me to practice patience and tolerance everyday, therefore, I value him."


I hope neither of these sages get reincarnated as business consultants ...

[shawchemical]

Even less reason for them to laugh. If the student turns out poor, it is the teachers' fault.

Just take your foot out of your mouth and stop posting rubbish, OK?

Not true at all.

Sure the teacher should be part of the equation, but there is only one person responsible for their training, and that is the individual.

You can lead a horse to water......

[anerlich]

You can lead a horse to water......


But if they pi$$ on you instead of drinking, are you going to laugh?

[Wayfaring]

You can lead a horse to water......

But you still can't force them to have cheap sex with a Tijuana hooker?

[LoneTiger108]

But if they pi$$ on you instead of drinking, are you going to laugh?

:D That'll be your fault for standing at the wrong end dude. ;)

And yep! I'd laugh my a$$ off!

All I was saying is that all students need to take responsibility for themselves and stop this 'name and blame' culture that has no place in martial arts if I'm honest.

My Sifu almost killed me, physically and mentally, on numerous occassions. I too have injuries that are a direct result of certain 'oldskool' training, but I could never blame my Sifu. I was the over eager student. I had my eyes closed! And ultimately I have to thank him for the enduring experience that is my own kung fu journey. :)