What is important to your Wing Chun training routine?

[LoneTiger108]

Have a little think about the way you practise your Wing Chun, and see if you can place certain training drills or exercises into the categories I have introduced here. Basically, I believe that Wing Chun contains a set amount of practises that are key to training and this helped to form the curriculum we use at The Yum Yeurng Academy.

Have a look and share with us what you think is the most important area of training to you and if you practice all, some or none of the categories listed.

Enjoy :D

[Sardinkahnikov]

I tend to believe that all are equally important, but I would add conditioning to the list. I know that it isn't strictly Wing Chun, but IMO a strong, flexible body is very important in order to learn and perform the techniques. I used to attend a 2h class - during my first two months, around 1h and 15-30 minutes were devoted to conditioning (including qi gong).

[yellow aster]

I agree that conditioning is just as important as all the areas of the poll, but it's not a big part of my class. I devote time for that on my own by hiking, biking, and doing some yoga. I'd rather not spend time in class doing conditioning since in a two-hour class, time goes by too quickly and I'd rather work on partner training and forms.

[cobra]

Thinking should be one of the categories

[Lee Chiang Po]

Thinking would equate to meditation. Close your eyes and imagine the many ways you can use your gung fu. I have always done this when I could, and fighting the wooden man. Being phisically fit is always a benefit to any practitioner, so a regular exercise regimen, thinking about it, and whipping on woody will do me just fine.

[k gledhill]

Line awareness during drilling. Using the centerline to attack another line of force relative to mine, iow is it crossing my line from right to left ? moving at me right to left, away from me sideways left to right, etc... . This opens up a freedom to attack another person in split second timing using facing as a simple way to be able to reach a person with either hand attacking constantly, tactically. Once the striking techniques of the inside [jum] and outside[tan ] elbows are learned [dan chi] the rest is constantly growing with the idea 'till death....the pursuit of perfection is only hampered by the 'human factor' :D

Once you become aware of your punches being the 'line' you try to keep the 'leading' edge of the forearms on one side of the guys arm or the other from angles either they create by their movement, uncontrolled to us, across our line, or by our manipulation of the line by cycling and re creating the 'line' to spatially attack what the preceding line of force opened up....genius. You have to have spatial awareness introduced to you through the system. the reason for VT being seen as suitable for women, or those with less ability to deal with force. Simple, your trained to strike where force just 'passed by' and hit the gap force created 'in space' before you.....the harder they come the bigger the gap :D

All the drilling with contact is to give stability of contact with force as you deflect it. NOT to learn to stick to it, but to let it flow past you and cycle into the space it makes ....punching.

If the space is occupied we have the jut,pak, bong etc..to make another punch, by clearing the line before us.

[LoneTiger108]

I tend to believe that all are equally important, but I would add conditioning to the list. I know that it isn't strictly Wing Chun, but IMO a strong, flexible body is very important in order to learn and perform the techniques. I used to attend a 2h class - during my first two months, around 1h and 15-30 minutes were devoted to conditioning (including qi gong).

FWIW Within what I practise, the equipment is used for drilling/conditioning but I guess you mean cardio-type training or warm up routines?

And the Qigong (Hei Gung) of course! Which can be included within the Form section to be honest.

[LoneTiger108]

Thinking should be one of the categories

Hmmm...

"Don't think!

FEEL" ;)

It's interesting to see how this poll is going...

C'mon guys, have a vote and share what you think

[SAAMAG]

It seems that that "all are equally important" is close to the interactive exercises. Perhaps there's a way to do a poll where you can put them in the order of importance? Because IMO all are not just as important, but rather have varying degrees of importance. Some of those things you have listed could be omitted and there'd be no detriment in skills training.

[LoneTiger108]

OOPS found it!

:D That didn't take you too long...

[SAAMAG]

:D That didn't take you too long...

I rewrote that to a normal response because my first was asking where the sparring was, I was skimming and didn't see it at first....

[LoneTiger108]

It seems that that "all are equally important" is close to the interactive exercises. Perhaps there's a way to do a poll where you can put them in the order of importance? Because IMO all are not just as important, but rather have varying degrees of importance. Some of those things you have listed could be omitted and there'd be no detriment in skills training.

Really?

Share with us what you mean here as I'm interested. One reason to present this info in the way it has been was to see what you guys think! Give me YOUR order of preference if you feel it's worth a discussion...

[ZenMindT]

I think all are important to your overall progression, but some take precedence over others depending on what stage your in.

In the beginging, forms and litature whould be streesed more than would be later.
After forms have been learned better to focus on interaction and apply what is in forms. Conditioning should be emphasized through out.

[SAAMAG]

Really?

Share with us what you mean here as I'm interested. One reason to present this info in the way it has been was to see what you guys think! Give me YOUR order of preference if you feel it's worth a discussion...

Lets put it this way...if fighting was the goal my order of importance would be:

Interactive training - chisau/looksau/gorsau/sparring
Equipment training - wallbags/sticks/rings/wooden man
Form training - hand sets incl. SLT/CK/BJD & Weaponry training - pole & knives
Literature training - curriculums & kuit in chinese

The reason for this is because conditioning and sparring are what produce good fighting skill. At the point where you have all this stuff, the forms and curriculum should come secondary.

If the reason for training was cultural it would be the exact opposite.

[LoneTiger108]

If the reason for training was cultural it would be the exact opposite.

An interesting viewpoint and I agree with your 'order' for producing fighters, but with all respect I wouldn't bother to coach weaponry or literature to a fighter unless they intended to coach in their later years.

Again, culturally, if you can see that everything I mention here is within the Wing Chun Style you may also understand that there really isn't much else in ANY OTHER Martial Art. This is it. This is what I mean by Wing Chun being a complete style/system or whatever you want to call it!

Look at the list again, and see how it all also interweaves with itself. As an example, if you wanted to complete a form, naturally you would expect to take such form into other areas of practice. SLT interaction, SLT Equipment training, SLT Weaponry and SLT Literature... :cool:

Am I making any sense at all?? :confused:

[SAAMAG]

Sure.

I thought you wanted me to just re-order it in my explanation. I'd definitely get rid of the last two then if fighting was the goal (but there are people like myself who like learning the entire arts but just focus more on the first two).

I understand what you mean by the term complete. And that's true from that respect. Just depends on what one perceives as complete ya know?

Some people think complete is all areas of combat (like standup, grappling, throwing, etc), some think that complete is all areas of training (meaning like what you have there with interactive drills, training, forms, and culture).

It's all relative and that's why my response is just an opinion and not a definitive end.

[Sardinkahnikov]

FWIW Within what I practise, the equipment is used for drilling/conditioning but I guess you mean cardio-type training or warm up routines?

And the Qigong (Hei Gung) of course! Which can be included within the Form section to be honest.

Equipment? You mean the dummy, rings, etc?

Definitely. The warm up routine also contained lots of stretching exercises. Furthermore, there were also lots of bodyweight and abs exercises. Backbridges, hindu pushups, chin-ups and pull-ups were vehemently practiced, along with stance training. Crawling exercises were also common during training sessions.

I agree with your comment regarding form training. Isn't saam bai fut (the 2nd section of SNT) also a form of qi gong?

[LoneTiger108]

It's all relative and that's why my response is just an opinion and not a definitive end.

I agree.


Equipment? You mean the dummy, rings, etc?

Yes. I use these equipment tools to drill specifics.


Definitely. The warm up routine also contained lots of stretching exercises. Furthermore, there were also lots of bodyweight and abs exercises. Backbridges, hindu pushups, chin-ups and pull-ups were vehemently practiced, along with stance training. Crawling exercises were also common during training sessions.

I like to hear of peoples personal input, especially considering the fact that I do the same within my own warm up routines. I think from a discussion had here before it seems that most guys have a distinctive way to warm up, and in all fairness, I do think this actually has an impact of the Wing Chun you then pass on.

It would be so great to create a Universal Wing Chun Warm Up that everybody can promote regardless of family or heritage.


I agree with your comment regarding form training. Isn't saam bai fut (the 2nd section of SNT) also a form of qi gong?

Here's where the differences can be noticed! IMHO ALL the forms carry their own heigung signatures, so yes the saam bai fut is a form of heigung. But for me, the saam bai fut is also the 1st set! (Although we never called it that) Everything that comes before it are mere signatures from Ip Man or previous Masters. My opinion of course! But something that was taught to me too by my Sifu and it made sense then and still does today! ;)

[Graham H]

but with all respect I wouldn't bother to coach weaponry or literature to a fighter unless they intended to coach in their later years.



Weaponry is an integeral part of the system. Without the correct training of the long pole and knives you are missing so much. The abilty to use Ving Tsun in empty hand fighting is increased by training the weapons.

As for the Kuen Kuit its ok to read at bedtime because it brings on a very deep sleep.!!!! :D

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Weaponry is an integeral part of the system. Without the correct training of the long pole and knives you are missing so much. The abilty to use Ving Tsun in empty hand fighting is increased by training the weapons.

I agree but still wouldn't teach people who were not interested in teaching. We have stick and ring (Equipment) that I do teach though.

With the anti-knife crime policies in the UK it's hard to justify our choppers! ;)


As for the Kuen Kuit its ok to read at bedtime because it brings on a very deep sleep.!!!! :D

As it probably does to most! Literature as a whole though is important to me as it was the way we learnt curriculums.

[Graham H]

I agree but still wouldn't teach people who were not interested in teaching. We have stick and ring (Equipment) that I do teach though.



I don't understand your way of thinking.........Regardless of whether one wants to teach or not the weapons HAVE to be taught. For instance the long long pole increases punching power and precision and also improves our footwork. The knives increase our awareness and agression needed to for the fight and footwork as well.
IMO it is wrong to segregate any of the forms. From SLT-BJD and all the drills inbetween are part of the whole. I practice WSLVT as it is being taught to me by Philipp Bayer. The syatem WSL taught to Philipp was taught to WSL by Ip Man. Unless one of these guys reinvented the wheel (which they haven't) why should your ideas be different to mine............unless, of course, you aren't teaching/practicing Ip Man Ving Tsun.
I know there have been very subtle changes in teaching methods through the years but the fundamental thinking should remain the same should it not????????

GH

[Graham H]

............................otherwise it is no longer Ving Tsun!!!!!!!

[LoneTiger108]

I don't understand your way of thinking.........

And you're not the first!


Regardless of whether one wants to teach or not the weapons HAVE to be taught.

I disagree. As I have said, we use equipment (sticks & rings) to coach what you would call weaponry forms and they do a good enough job preparing students for the weaponry, if they decide they want to learn to teach.

I guess I'm more concerned about students menatlity with knives more so than the pole to be honest. That sort of training is definitelty not for everyone IMHO.


For instance the long long pole increases punching power and precision and also improves our footwork. The knives increase our awareness and agression needed to for the fight and footwork as well.
IMO it is wrong to segregate any of the forms. From SLT-BJD and all the drills inbetween are part of the whole.

I agree with what you're saying, but still choose to coach the way I want to. FWIW The weaponry forms were actually taught to very few of Ip Mans students and from what I have seen everyones forms vary because of this. Nobody knows what Ip Man taught.


I practice WSLVT as it is being taught to me by Philipp Bayer. The syatem WSL taught to Philipp was taught to WSL by Ip Man. Unless one of these guys reinvented the wheel (which they haven't) why should your ideas be different to mine............unless, of course, you aren't teaching/practicing Ip Man Ving Tsun.
I know there have been very subtle changes in teaching methods through the years but the fundamental thinking should remain the same should it not????????

I know who taught you Graham, you've said before. I have no problem with Wing Chun being taught the 'same' as this person or that, but I also believe that you shouldn't box yourself to be a carbon copy of your Sifu. I was not taught like that.

I agree that the basic curriculum of all Wing Chun is very similar, especially within the Ip Family, but that's all it is. A curriculum. An image of forms and basic interactions.

Show me a clip of Ip Man doing the whole pole form, or knife form. It just can't be done as it was something that was not meant for mass consumption. His students were lucky to have even seen the pole or knives and whatever they did catch was minimal. This does include WSL as far as I know, and even my own Sigung Lee Shing. All we can do as students and keepers of the art is to take it further by promoting it well, presenting it with pride and preserving it with honour.

I think if we could all do that Ip Man, and all the other Wing Chun ancestors, would be happy!

[wtxs]

With the anti-knife crime policies in the UK it's hard to justify our choppers! ;).

Brother, we yanks feels your pain! First they take away your fire arms so you can't defend yourself and love ones, and now anti-knife?:eek::confused: So what's next? The so called TACTICAL pen?:(

[LoneTiger108]

Brother, we yanks feels your pain! First they take away your fire arms so you can't defend yourself and love ones, and now anti-knife?:eek::confused: So what's next? The so called TACTICAL pen?:(

Something like that has already happened in the UK dude! The KUBOTAN is on the list of banned 'weapons'... :rolleyes::confused::eek:

[Graham H]

Spencer

You are correct. We shouldn't really get bogged down in what Ip Man taught or what he didn't... Maybe that goes for WSL as well. What is important is that what we are practicing makes sense to US and we are happy with that. Everybody is different right? ;):D

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer

You are correct. We shouldn't really get bogged down in what Ip Man taught or what he didn't... Maybe that goes for WSL as well. What is important is that what we are practicing makes sense to US and we are happy with that.

Thanks. I only wish there were more people in OUR whole family who could see this. Wing Chun is a growing art and with growth comes change imho.


Everybody is different right? ;):D

My point exactly, especially when you look at our own personal physical make up. Even moreso these days too as there are fewer 'blind' students like there may have been back in the seventies and eighties! Information is everything so we have all developed with the times. It's actually finding the similarities that is getting harder IMHO. Nowadays, the only similarity is in Ip Mans name being attached to most of us!!! :rolleyes:

One reason for this thread was to see if the majority could agree that EVERYTHING I mention here IS Wing Chun. And I haven't had anyone respond with MORE (yet!) :D

The reality is not about this bong or that bong, chisau like this or like that, rattan rings or not, it's about your overall approach and training. If you can see similarities to ALL the generalized subjects I put forward here, then you ARE doing a comprehensive and complete 'version' of Wing Chun.

IMHO of course! ;)