KUng fu fighting without hopping around....

[Hardwork108]

Here is a clip showing a kung fu fighting competition. One of the fighters (in black) hops around and looks like he is from the Bruce Lee/kickboxing/Tae Kwon Do/pseudo TCMA/Glorified Kickboxing school of "kung fu". The other fighter in contrast has a very much solider base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdoEQf3mCaI&feature=related

This video demonstrates that one can fight using a kung fu "seatednees". I would say that it is possible for a kung fu exponent to use even a "solider" stance than this guy, during combat.

[SPJ]

some throws

1. carry the lower leg (bao tui shuai)

2. carry the shoulder (failed)

3. carry the thigh (upper leg)

4. carry the waist (bao yao shuai)

---

[SPJ]

the rules favored throws

no head shot, meaning no KO.

a thrower may take some hits and get close enough

and throw the opponent away.

----

[Hardwork108]

the rules favored throws

no head shot, meaning no KO.

a thrower may take some hits and get close enough

and throw the opponent away.

----

Are you saying that one needs to hop around in a "non-seated" manner?

[YouKnowWho]

Hopping around (fire strategy) is one of the 5 elements fighting strategies. It has value to be used to against a "metal" strategy fighter. The earth strategy (solid stance) is not the only strategy that a Kung Fu guy will fight. A good Kung Fu fighter should be able to switch his strategies when needed.

[Hardwork108]

Hopping around (fire strategy) is one of the 5 elements fighting strategies. It has value to be used to against a "metal" strategy fighter. The earth strategy (solid stance) is not the only strategy that a Kung Fu guy will fight. A good Kung Fu fighter should be able to switch his strategies when needed.

Perhaps "hopping" around strategy exists in other styles of kung fu I am not aware of, but what according to what I have been taught in Wing Chun and Chow Gar, it is something that you just don't do.

I was also taught that this was a common approach in authentic kung fu training.

[YouKnowWho]

We should not look at CMA from 1 or 2 style point of view. This is why to have "style boundary" in mind is not going to help our overall combat skill development. The southern CMA styles emphasize on the "earth strategy". The Kempo Karate guy will be a good example. When a Kempo guy fight, he will stay in a low side way horse stance. His leading arm will drop down to protect his body from kicks. His back hand will raise to protect his head from punches. He will move in inch by inch until you have no place to back up, he will then attack. The reason that this is called "earth" strategy because you move in so slow which is almost not noticeable (as part of the earth). It's a good strategy but it's not the only strategy.

[Tao Of The Fist]

Could you please explain what exactly the five strategies are according to the wuxing? I'm intrigued.

[bawang]

The Kempo Karate guy will be a good example. When a Kempo guy fight, he will stay in a low side way horse stance.

thats from hong kong movies

[YouKnowWho]

Could you please explain what exactly the five strategies are according to the wuxing? I'm intrigued.
The 5 elements theory (one against the other, one help the other) can be Google all over the internet. I only explain the "combat" usage of the 5 elements theory here.

Metal - use your elbow, knee to meet your opponent's kicks and punches (Hong Gar).
Wood - use long range round house kick, side kick, spin back kick, ... to kick your opponent from distance (TKD).
Water - Defensive fighter, only response to the outside force (Aikido).
Fire - Offensive fighter, hop around, good foot work, hard to predict what will happen next (boxer).
Earth - excellent defense, move in slowly (Kempo).

It's not difficult to figure out why one can be used to against another. For example.

- When a TKD guy kicks, you drop your elbow on his ankle or instep, meet you shin bone against his leg (cut into his legs), after he can't kick you any more, it will be your turn.
- Also when a guy likes to use his sharp elbow and shin bone to meet your kicks o punches, if you use strong defense, move in slowly, don't throw any long rang attack, you will put the metal fighter in a helpless situation (nothing to cut).
- It's not hard to finish the rest of the 5 elements relationship.


thats from hong kong movies
Because I wrote that movie script.

[bawang]

youknowwho sometime you say very strange things. im scare. where is that five element from? what style kung fu u do???

[Hardwork108]

We should not look at CMA from 1 or 2 style point of view.
We have to look at it that way if we have experience only in one or two styles. However, both styles that I have studied have a comprehensive approach to combat, yet we did not have hopping taught to us as a strategy.


This is why to have "style boundary" in mind is not going to help our overall combat skill development.
In my humble opinion each genuine kung fu style has infinite possibilities within its "boundaries", which will include its principles and concepts, which in my case do not allow for hopping around during fighting.


The southern CMA styles emphasize on the "earth strategy". The Kempo Karate guy will be a good example.
I am not familiar with kempo karate.


When a Kempo guy fight, he will stay in a low side way horse stance. His leading arm will drop down to protect his body from kicks. His back hand will raise to protect his head from punches. He will move in inch by inch until you have no place to back up, he will then attack.
In both of my Southern Styles, we don't back up. When an attack is perceived then we move FORWARD instantly and FAST (not inch by inch) and "do the guy in".


The reason that this is called "earth" strategy because you move in so slow which is almost not noticeable (as part of the earth). It's a good strategy but it's not the only strategy.
To me moving slow does not make sense. You can be attached to earth energy while moving fast as well, as long as you "sink" and are "seated". I say this because I assume that the opponent will not necessarily, or always be waiting for one to inch his his way close to him.

I can imagine scenarios when some TCMA stylists may hop out of range if they are in danger but hopping around like a boxer or kickboxer is not what comes to mind, as one can still be "seated" when he takes an emergency leap backward.

[YouKnowWho]

youknowwho sometime you say very strange things. im scare.
Because I don't belong to the main stream. CMA guys think I'm a MMA guy and MMA guys think I'm a CMA guy.


where is that five element from? what style kung fu u do???
What I have just explained came from the long fist system. My major styles are Shuai Chiao and long fist. My minor styles are prey mantis, Baji, Lohan, Zimen, Taiji, XingYi, Baugua (8 palms only), WC.

I had stated this combat theory in some none-CMA forum, nobody was appreciated. Since this is a CMA forum, I thought I may give it a try. If this theory make sense to you, or can help you in combat, it will be yours, and you can teach others if you want to. If it doesn't make sense to you, just ignore it. As long as one person on the internet can be benefited from this little piece of information, my keyboard time will not be wasted.

[bawang]

so u just make up some random sh1t and called it 5 elements?
nice *rubs testicles

i think boxing and taekwondo is the most internal and advanced fighting. the hopping around is like a taoist immortal floating in the air, or like the hopping of the deadly praying mantits. i call it immortal praying mantits shaolin wudang kung fu tao.. does anyone want to lern from me? 10$/lesson

im poar and i ned monies for kfc

[YouKnowWho]

This forum looks more and more like Bullsh!ido now.

[bawang]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:WeKiNNbP92fbfM:http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/pic/22_gyunbub_pic03.gif

chinese kung fu fights like western boxing. chinese kung fu is not real chinese kung fu

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:oPvL-6cNZY-ogM:http://www.21wulin.com/upimg/allimg/070514/1740211.jpg
this is muay thai not real authentic kung fu
this is fake and gay

[Scott R. Brown]

Hopping around (fire strategy) is one of the 5 elements fighting strategies. It has value to be used to against a "metal" strategy fighter. The earth strategy (solid stance) is not the only strategy that a Kung Fu guy will fight. A good Kung Fu fighter should be able to switch his strategies when needed.

Nice!


Perhaps "hopping" around strategy exists in other styles of kung fu I am not aware of, but what according to what I have been taught in Wing Chun and Chow Gar, it is something that you just don't do.

I was also taught that this was a common approach in authentic kung fu training.

HW108, I appreciate your zeal for tradition, however it should be like the tail of a kite that allows you to fly with more stability rather than like an anchor that drags you down and inhibits your growth and development.

Just because something is not found in your experience or in another traditional system does not mean it is not of value. Take the ideas and explore them, if they work for you great, if not discard them but keep them in your mind for the future in the event you find use for them as your experience grows.



Metal - use your elbow, knee to meet your opponent's kicks and punches (Hong Gar).
Wood - use long range round house kick, side kick, spin back kick, ... to kick your opponent from distance (TKD).
Water - Defensive fighter, only response to the outside force (Aikido).
Fire - Offensive fighter, hop around, good foot work, hard to predict what will happen next (boxer).
Earth - excellent defense, move in slowly (Kempo).

It's not difficult to figure out why one can be used to against another. For example.

- When a TKD guy kicks, you drop your elbow on his ankle or instep, meet you shin bone against his leg (cut into his legs), after he can't kick you any more, it will be your turn.
- Also when a guy likes to use his sharp elbow and shin bone to meet your kicks o punches, if you use strong defense, move in slowly, don't throw any long rang attack, you will put the metal fighter in a helpless situation (nothing to cut).
- It's not hard to finish the rest of the 5 elements relationship.

Nicely organized!


youknowwho sometime you say very strange things. im scare. where is that five element from? what style kung fu u do???

In the event these definitions are of his own invention, so what? Even the ancients had to come up with their own categories, stratagems and methods of explaining the principles they taught. Everything was invented by someone!

Do not judge the ideas based upon where they came from; judge them based upon their own merits. If you disagree, argue against the principles themselves, not the person presenting them.

I find nothing wrong with his categorization of these principles. The labels used are arbitrary from a philosophical perspective anyway.

And I have used almost everything he has mentioned myself in differing circumstances. It is of benefit to be versatile!


We have to look at it that way if we have experience only in one or two styles. However, both styles that I have studied have a comprehensive approach to combat, yet we did not have hopping taught to us as a strategy.

That is well and good, but that does not, in and of itself, mean it may not be effective under some circumstances. It is best to keep it in mind. I agree it is generally an unstable method of moving, but it is quicker. Historically speaking, I have tended to use both as the occasion dictated, often within the same sparring match.


In my humble opinion each genuine kung fu style has infinite possibilities within its "boundaries", which will include its principles and concepts, which in my case do not allow for hopping around during fighting.

Again, that does not mean it is not of any value at all, only that you find no value in it.


In both of my Southern Styles, we don't back up. When an attack is perceived then we move FORWARD instantly and FAST (not inch by inch) and "do the guy in".

Backing up may be useful tactic at times. Do not disregard it completely just because it is not taught within your chosen styles.

Arguably two of the best Japanese swordsmen in history were Yagu Munenori who could disarm a sword wielding opponent while he was weaponless, and Musashi Miyamoto who was said to have never been defeated in a duel and, according to himself, bested at least 60 men. These two men, who never met in a duel, employed diametrically opposed fighting strategies. Yagu waited and invited an attack, believing that the act of attacking creates an opening that will lead one to their own defeat, while Musashi practiced the blitz, overwhelming his opponent with aggression and constantly backing him up.

Each strategy has its advantages and disadvantages and each was found to be of value by noted experts in their day.


To me moving slow does not make sense. You can be attached to earth energy while moving fast as well, as long as you "sink" and are "seated". I say this because I assume that the opponent will not necessarily, or always be waiting for one to inch his his way close to him.

Again, it depends upon the circumstance. Moving slow may lull the opponent into a false sense of comfort, then move quickly to attack. Or move quickly and then slowly and quickly again in random alternation in order to keep the opponent guessing.


I can imagine scenarios when some TCMA stylists may hop out of range if they are in danger but hopping around like a boxer or kickboxer is not what comes to mind, as one can still be "seated" when he takes an emergency leap backward.

I agree in that, in close quarters it is very unstable. Hopping away is an effective escape tactic to create distance as is hopping forward in order to close the gap, but once one gets in close it is preferable to have a stable base.


I had stated this combat theory in some none-CMA forum, nobody was appreciated. Since this is a CMA forum, I thought I may give it a try. If this theory make sense to you, or can help you in combat, it will be yours, and you can teach others if you want to. If it doesn't make sense to you, just ignore it. As long as one person on the internet can be benefited from this little piece of information, my keyboard time will not be wasted.

Well said!


so u just make up some random sh1t and called it 5 elements?
nice *rubs testicles

What is wrong with that? All strategies, tactics and principles were “made up” by someone!

I do not mind his categorization myself. I think they are nicely put.

Maybe you should rub your testicles more often! It might help them drop and grow some hair on them!:p:D


i think boxing and taekwondo is the most internal and advanced fighting. the hopping around is like a taoist imm ortal floating in the air, or like the hopping of the deadly praying mantits. i call it immortal praying mantits shaolin wudang kung fu tao.. does anyone want to lern from me? 10$/lesson

im poar and i ned monies for kfc

No, but if you want to pay ME $10 per lesson, I’ll be happy to learn it from you!


This forum looks more and more like Bullsh!ido now.

You can’t go anywhere on the internet and not run into Bullshido!

[SPJ]

1. 5 elements theory was and still is used widely since some 4000 years ago.

the concept of giving birth to, antagonist to, synergistic to was developed later.

actually I developed the 5 elements theory further with calculus--

it is just a theory the categorize things/events and finding the relationship among 5 items.

why not 8 items, why not more items---

2. the fighting stance and stepping methods are varied. all has its advantage and disadvantage as pointed out in earlier posts.

you may be seated or rooted and not moving lightly. you move when the opponent is coming.

fencing stepping, or boxer hopping etc, they are looking for angle and opportunity to go in. and ready to evade to the left or right, or back away, too. distancing is the defensive tactics and strategy.

however, the hopping around may present an opening for the opponent to time and attack you.

3. in tong bei, the defensive/offensive move is lead hand palm.

in wc, the forward hand up to shoulder, the rear hand protecting the lead hand elbow, your feet are half step apart. you guard your centerline, when the opponent punch or kick. he opens himself, you may get inside his center line/road-

4. to move after the opponent moves

or to move to the left and right. forward and backward with out leaving your center position, before the opponent moves

take your pick.

but in the end we all move the steps and positioning into an advantage point,

5. in southern style, they have this believe that they may stay put and fend off all attacks with hands and legs, defending the current spot.

but in northern style, they believe, the current spot needs not be defended, you may always move away before or after the opponent attacks.

take your pick.

even tai mountain crashing in front of you, you do not move.

or ready to move forward and to the side, when the opponent starts to attack your current position,

you may even move just an inch, the opponent would miss, and you move closer to attack him before or after he finishes his attack.

---

[taai gihk yahn]

um, last time I checked, there was this fairly traditional / classical, so-called "internal" TCMA practice called "hing gung", or "lightness skill"; it involves quite a bit of "hopping"; in fact, whereas "gan gung" or "rooting skill" is considered rather rudimentary, it is considered an advanced skill, because whereas rooting is relatively static (that is, the focus is on maintaining the center of mass within the base of support without stepping), 'hing gung" is all about movement, and it is believed that maintaining proper structure / taiji principes when moving quickly is harder to do than when stationary in a stance;

in the main taiji forum I practice, there are sections that train both, although rooting is much more prevalent; in the advanced fast form that I do, "hing gung" is emphasized over "gan gung"; the form features various quick footwork moves coupled with whipping-hand style strikes and includes "hopping" (shuffle steps, lateral dodging) and longer jumping;

utimately, the goal is to be able to switch back and forth / combine the two as needed;

[Lee Chiang Po]

Here is a clip showing a kung fu fighting competition. One of the fighters (in black) hops around and looks like he is from the Bruce Lee/kickboxing/Tae Kwon Do/pseudo TCMA/Glorified Kickboxing school of "kung fu". The other fighter in contrast has a very much solider base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdoEQf3mCaI&feature=related

This video demonstrates that one can fight using a kung fu "seatednees". I would say that it is possible for a kung fu exponent to use even a "solider" stance than this guy, during combat.


These older chinese martial arts were all developed without outside influences. Adding and extracting things until they had it perfect. Or as close as possible. Western influence, by people that aways seem to think they can improve on anything, has pretty much altered it to ruination. As long as you have people that live and breath martial arts you will also have people claiming to have the new and improved versions of everything. It is all about money and KFC.

[Hardwork108]

HW108, I appreciate your zeal for tradition, however it should be like the tail of a kite that allows you to fly with more stability rather than like an anchor that drags you down and inhibits your growth and development.
IMHO, having more options does not necessarily mean that one "can fly with more stability", as sometimes the "new" options contradict given principles of the art one is studying. This creates the possibility that you will end up with a diluted and incomplete art.

Of course, this is not always the case, but I am pointing out the hurdles.


Just because something is not found in your experience or in another traditional system does not mean it is not of value. Take the ideas and explore them, if they work for you great, if not discard them but keep them in your mind for the future in the event you find use for them as your experience grows.


There are many similar things in life that have value on their own but not when mixed together, specially if the one who is doing the mixing is not a qualified master. For example, you can mix together fine red wine with fine white wine, but end up with a mixture that is of inferior quality to what those wines were individually.

One can cross train kung fu with many other none related arts, while incorporating anything one considers useful from these arts. However, wether one can necessarily refer to this mixture as authentic kung fu or TCMA, is another story.

Of course, the person might not care wether he ends up with what qualifies as authentic kung fu, as long as it works for him, but I DO.

I want to study the TCMAs as they are and get the benefits that were designed into these arts by genuine masters, and to do so one has to thoroughly study a given style(s), and understand them, before deciding wether can be improved by hopping around.;)




In the event these definitions are of his own invention, so what? Even the ancients had to come up with their own categories, stratagems and methods of explaining the principles they taught. Everything was invented by someone!
This was not directed to me but I will just give my opinion in that regard.

IMHO, the "ancients" that you speak of were genuine masters, whereas nowadays everybody thinks that they have right to "invent" things, when they are not well versed in the particular subject area that they are trying to classify or improve.

Of course, there may be exceptions but I am talking about so called kung fu people who have not even built a basic understanding of fundamental exercises such as chi sao (in WC and some other styles), going on to adding "improvements" from often other unrelated arts, while thinking that they have invented something better!



That is well and good, but that does not, in and of itself, mean it may not be effective under some circumstances.
Of course, it is effective under given circumstances,and there are other none-TCMA approaches that may be effective as well, but I don't study other arts, I study TCMAs and studied properly one will learn a complete art.

I somehow don´t think that the evolution and design of these TCMAs somehow missed the benefits of hopping around, leaving some perceived "weakness" within their armor.


It is best to keep it in mind. I agree it is generally an unstable method of moving, but it is quicker. Historically speaking, I have tended to use both as the occasion dictated, often within the same sparring match.

There is nothing wrong with that, but as I stated/implied I personally prefer to deal with my combat issues using 100% TCMAs.


Again, that does not mean it is not of any value at all, only that you find no value in it.
Correction, I find no relevance in it, in regards the arts that I practice, because I am sure that it has value within the context of another art such as kickboxing MMA or Tae Kwon Do, etc.


Backing up may be useful tactic at times. Do not disregard it completely just because it is not taught within your chosen styles.
Let me clarify. We were taught to back up, only as an emergency measure. So, it is there as a last minute tactic but not a general strategy. The mindset is a forward/intercepting one.


Arguably two of the best Japanese swordsmen in history were Yagu Munenori who could disarm a sword wielding opponent while he was weaponless, and Musashi Miyamoto who was said to have never been defeated in a duel and, according to himself, bested at least 60 men. These two men, who never met in a duel, employed diametrically opposed fighting strategies. Yagu waited and invited an attack, believing that the act of attacking creates an opening that will lead one to their own defeat, while Musashi practiced the blitz, overwhelming his opponent with aggression and constantly backing him up.

Each strategy has its advantages and disadvantages and each was found to be of value by noted experts in their day.

I understand, and I am sure that some students looking for a sword fighting teacher, would prefer one of them over the other, as instructors, depending on the character and mindset of the individual student, just as I prefer the traditional approach of the arts that I practice.:)


Again, it depends upon the circumstance. Moving slow may lull the opponent into a false sense of comfort, then move quickly to attack. Or move quickly and then slowly and quickly again in random alternation in order to keep the opponent guessing.
The assumption in my training is that there is no time to waste. The mindset is that of life and death combat. When the attack is perceived then one enters the opponent's space and hits him, and continues to do so until the threat is diminished.

IMHO, the scenario that you present may generally be more relevant in sparring setting, rather than a street fight.



Maybe you should rub your testicles more often! It might help them drop and grow some hair on them!:p:D
I think he rubs his testicles too much as it is....:D


You can’t go anywhere on the internet and not run into Bullshido!

Ah yes, once upon a time, a bunch of kung fu-clueless knuckleheads came together and founded Bullshido, and the art of Glorified Kickboxing was never the same again.....LOL

[Hardwork108]

These older chinese martial arts were all developed without outside influences. Adding and extracting things until they had it perfect. Or as close as possible. Western influence, by people that aways seem to think they can improve on anything, has pretty much altered it to ruination. As long as you have people that live and breath martial arts you will also have people claiming to have the new and improved versions of everything. It is all about money and KFC.

I agree with everything you have said.:)

The matter is worse because many of the people who are doing the "improving" have not studied under proper kung fu masters and hence do not have a valid base of reference, as regards the TCMA art that they are trying so hard to "improve".

Yes, the TCMAs are in a sad state here in the West, and that is partly due to all the "improvements" that everyone seems to be making.....

[Hardwork108]

um, last time I checked, there was this fairly traditional / classical, so-called "internal" TCMA practice called "hing gung", or "lightness skill"; it involves quite a bit of "hopping"; in fact, whereas "gan gung" or "rooting skill" is considered rather rudimentary, it is considered an advanced skill, because whereas rooting is relatively static (that is, the focus is on maintaining the center of mass within the base of support without stepping), 'hing gung" is all about movement, and it is believed that maintaining proper structure / taiji principes when moving quickly is harder to do than when stationary in a stance;

in the main taiji forum I practice, there are sections that train both, although rooting is much more prevalent; in the advanced fast form that I do, "hing gung" is emphasized over "gan gung"; the form features various quick footwork moves coupled with whipping-hand style strikes and includes "hopping" (shuffle steps, lateral dodging) and longer jumping;

utimately, the goal is to be able to switch back and forth / combine the two as needed;

Understood, but lightness skill is an internally acquired advanced skill, and will still require an understanding and application of kung fu rooting, that is, I doubt that anyone will teach it to a student who has not first mustered proper kung fu rooting.


On the other hand hopping around like a Tae Kwon Do (etc.) practitioner, will not be seen as an advanced skill by a traditional kung fu master. If anything, they will see it as "clueless kung fu skill". :D

By the way, I wish you success in your lightness skill training, and I hope you can update us on the evolution of your abilities in regards to this specific training as time goes by.

[Scott R. Brown]

We should also keep in mind that hopping around is pretty much a function of a flat, non-slip surface. I used to tell my students, try this stuff on the side of a hill, in sand, loose dirt, in a river bed and you will end up looking pretty foolish.......and get hurt!:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

FYI, Youknowwho is John Wang, one of the highest authorities in Combat Shuai Chiao, listen to the man.
While I don't always agree with John's esoteric views at times, like his fetish for crushing coconuts and watermellons with head locks :D, the man knows his TCMA, far better than the majority here.
John, bawang likes to stir things up, its his way and he means no disrespect.


As for bouncing, or hopping around, if one feels it is NOT condusive to ones PERSONAL style of fighting then don't do it, for many it works and works real well.

[Frost]

Here is a clip showing a kung fu fighting competition. One of the fighters (in black) hops around and looks like he is from the Bruce Lee/kickboxing/Tae Kwon Do/pseudo TCMA/Glorified Kickboxing school of "kung fu". The other fighter in contrast has a very much solider base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdoEQf3mCaI&feature=related

This video demonstrates that one can fight using a kung fu "seatednees". I would say that it is possible for a kung fu exponent to use even a "solider" stance than this guy, during combat.

You would say that, seeing as you have no actual fighting experience :)

He looked like any wrestler does in a no headshot fight, keeps his hands down and doesn’t move too much because he is in no danger of getting hit in the head...please tell me what exactly is unique and kung fu like about it?

[Dragonzbane76]

for one the guy in black is not creating enough opening for an exit. He is throwing the techs. and leaving his distance for clinch and grappling. If he wants to stand and stay standing he needs to enter with combo/exit with combo/jabs/strikes.

p.s. the guy in yellow is a Shuai jiao practitioner.

[SanHeChuan]

Well I guess we really didn't know Youknowwho, Oh the irony.

I've heard 5 element theory applied to offense through Hsing-Yi.

Wood Crushing 崩 Bēng To collapse, as a building collapsing in on itself.
Fire Pounding 炮 Pào Exploding outward like a cannon while blocking.
Earth Crossing 橫 Héng Crossing across the line of attack while turning over.
Metal Splitting 劈 Pī To split like an axe chopping up and over.
Water Drilling 鑽 Zuān Drilling forward horizontally like a geyser.

Never heard about 5 element defense or foot work through.

Is there a reference for that, preferably online?

[Lokhopkuen]

Here is a clip showing a kung fu fighting competition. One of the fighters (in black) hops around and looks like he is from the Bruce Lee/kickboxing/Tae Kwon Do/pseudo TCMA/Glorified Kickboxing school of "kung fu". The other fighter in contrast has a very much solider base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdoEQf3mCaI&feature=related

This video demonstrates that one can fight using a kung fu "seatednees". I would say that it is possible for a kung fu exponent to use even a "solider" stance than this guy, during combat.

His hips were seriously bruised after all of that dashing on the floor...

[David Jamieson]

FYI, Youknowwho is John Wang, one of the highest authorities in Combat Shuai Chiao, listen to the man.
While I don't always agree with John's esoteric views at times, like his fetish for crushing coconuts and watermellons with head locks :D, the man knows his TCMA, far better than the majority here.
John, bawang likes to stir things up, its his way and he means no disrespect.


As for bouncing, or hopping around, if one feels it is NOT condusive to ones PERSONAL style of fighting then don't do it, for many it works and works real well.

DUDE!!!

You weren't supposed to tell anyone! :p

:p

[Lokhopkuen]

so u just make up some random sh1t and called it 5 elements?
nice *rubs testicles

i think boxing and taekwondo is the most internal and advanced fighting. the hopping around is like a taoist immortal floating in the air, or like the hopping of the deadly praying mantits. i call it immortal praying mantits shaolin wudang kung fu tao.. does anyone want to lern from me? 10$/lesson

im poar and i ned monies for kfc

I want to learn asshammer for girlfriend!

[Lokhopkuen]

DUDE!!!

You weren't supposed to tell anyone! :p

:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FFP6AWvxEA

[sanjuro_ronin]

DUDE!!!

You weren't supposed to tell anyone! :p

:p

heck, I was just surprised that everyone didn't know youknowwho.
LOL !

[David Jamieson]

Well he is using an alias.

I mean , who knew you were Paul Sacramento, huge fan of smallville and ubiquitous poster on smallville forums?

I mean, I know that because i'm a netizen with bat super powers of analytics, but who else would know that?

I mean besides Dale, Kisu, Gene, Dave Ross, Chris, Scot.... nevermind. :p

[bawang]

hy. if hes a powerful badass famous shuaijiao guy how can he say "fighting in low side horse stance" with a straight face. i am saying this not to be rude but i am serious critisizing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well he is using an alias.

I mean , who knew you were Paul Sacramento, huge fan of smallville and ubiquitous poster on smallville forums?

I mean, I know that because i'm a netizen with bat super powers of analytics, but who else would know that?

I mean besides Dale, Kisu, Gene, Dave Ross, Chris, Scot.... nevermind. :p

FORMER FAN !
Those so-called writers have ass-raped the Superman mythos far too much !!!
BUT, I MAY see Season 10 since it is the last one, Thank the Kryptonian Gods !!!

[Lucas]

http://buffetoblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/sumo-wrestling-size-does-matter.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

hy. if hes a powerful badass famous shuaijiao guy how can he say "fighting in low side horse stance" with a straight face. i am saying this not to be rude but i am serious critisizing.

John said that?
He must have been high that day.
:D

[David Jamieson]

I understand it is not so difficult to eat brains from a low side horse stance.

[Lucas]

to be fair he was describing the way a kenpo guy might fight. low also being a relative term.....

[Drake]

low also being a relative term.....

That's what BP said!

[Lucas]

ouch!!!!!!!

[MasterKiller]

http://i.imgur.com/uMbSZ.gif

[taai gihk yahn]

looks like a lot of hopping going on here as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj2WNh66tro&feature=related

[David Jamieson]

looks like a lot of hopping going on here as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj2WNh66tro&feature=related

that's a great set performed by a great practitioner. :)

[Hardwork108]

As for bouncing, or hopping around, if one feels it is NOT condusive to ones PERSONAL style of fighting then don't do it, for many it works and works real well.

Most of us develop our "personal styles" within the context of certain arts and their concepts and principles. If I wanted just to just use my personal style, then I would not train in any art at all, specially a complex system(s) such as kung fu. I would just go into rough neighborhoods or get a job as night club security guy, and just develop my own personal way.

I could even cluelessly cross train my kung fu in other MAs whose principles and concepts contradicted my TCMA. However, when one decides to train in an authentic kung fu style with a genuine sifu then he should stick to that art's principles and concepts, and not contradict them because they happen to not fit his "personal style".......

Having said that, traditionally speaking when one does complete and or master a kung fu system, to a point where one "becomes" the system, then one can PERSONALIZE it.

IMHO, that is how things work, but unfortunately nowadays everyone and their grandmothers are creating their own personal ways, without first building a solid base - through genuine practice- in a given kung fu style. So, they mish and mash until they create a personalized style that works for them but has nothing to do with genuine kung fu practice.

[SAAMAG]

To each their own. Though being light-footed or rooted is an indicator of "authentic gung fu". It's more a matter of preference in tactics.

Interesting vid--funny how neither one did anything that resembled Bagua. It looked more like the guy in yellow was going a shoddy version of Sanshou and the guy in black was just...well...doing whatever he was doing.

I see the core of your ideology is the same from the posts up to this point...walking that fine line of the "knucklehead kickboxer" argument still. Glad to see it's not degenerating though.

In any case, thanks for the vid...

-Van

[YouKnowWho]

"fighting in low side horse stance" with a straight face.
I was talking about Kempo guys. I will never use horse stance in fighting. The horse stance is too conservative and put too much weight on the front leg that's difficult for "spring". IMO, the best fighting stance is the stance that you can "shoot forward" any time you want to. Like a lion ready to jump on a deer. The only fighting stance that I like is 3-7 stance (30% weight on front leg, 70% weight on back leg) or 4-6 stance (40% weight on front leg, 60% weight on back leg). Fighting in low 4-6 stance is easier for "leg shooting" such as single leg, double legs, knife hook, knee seize, leg scoop, ankle pick, ...


so u just make up some random sh1t and called it 5 elements?
nice *rubs testicles
You have given me too much credit for this. I wish I'm this smart to be able to create it in the 21 century. As I have said, this strategy came from the long fist system in Taiwan. I had used this strategy many times before. Back in the 70th there were a lot of golden glove boxers, TKD guys, and Kempo guys around (no MMA guys yet).


Is there a reference for that, preferably online?
I don't think there are anything online reference for that. The 5 elements fighting strategy was also taught by my senior long fist brother Nelson Zou when he ran his "5 tigers club" in NYC. For those who lived in NYC during 1972-1976 may know that CMA school. They had over 500 students one time back in 1973. Dave Ross should know that school. My senior SC brother Zheng Sin-Ping (the 1st person who brought SC to US) was also a guest instructor and taught in that school.


funny how neither one did anything that resembled Bagua.
Glad to see those clips that I put up on internet many years ago get popular. Here are some more fights plus 1 demo and 1 interview after demo from the original VHS tape. There is one more Bagua fight clip.

Sorry that the quality was not very good. I used a small WMV file converter. I didn't have road runner at that time.

http://johnswang.com/Bagua_fight.wmv
http://johnswang.com/fight_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/fight_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/fight_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/fight_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Chang_sc_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Chang_interview.wmv

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most of us develop our "personal styles" within the context of certain arts and their concepts and principles. If I wanted just to just use my personal style, then I would not train in any art at all, specially a complex system(s) such as kung fu. I would just go into rough neighborhoods or get a job as night club security guy, and just develop my own personal way.

I could even cluelessly cross train my kung fu in other MAs whose principles and concepts contradicted my TCMA. However, when one decides to train in an authentic kung fu style with a genuine sifu then he should stick to that art's principles and concepts, and not contradict them because they happen to not fit his "personal style".......

Having said that, traditionally speaking when one does complete and or master a kung fu system, to a point where one "becomes" the system, then one can PERSONALIZE it.

IMHO, that is how things work, but unfortunately nowadays everyone and their grandmothers are creating their own personal ways, without first building a solid base - through genuine practice- in a given kung fu style. So, they mish and mash until they create a personalized style that works for them but has nothing to do with genuine kung fu practice.

For someone with self-admitted limited experience you judge way too much things you know very little about.

[Frost]

For someone with self-admitted limited experience you judge way too much things you know very little about.

and you are shocked and suprised by this because.......

[SAAMAG]

I was talking about Kempo guys. I will never use horse stance in fighting. The horse stance is too conservative and put too much weight on the front leg that's difficult for "spring". IMO, the best fighting stance is the stance that you can "shoot forward" any time you want to. Like a lion ready to jump on a deer. The only fighting stance that I like is 3-7 stance (30% weight on front leg, 70% weight on back leg) or 4-6 stance (40% weight on front leg, 60% weight on back leg). Fighting in low 4-6 stance is easier for "leg shooting" such as single leg, double legs, knife hook, knee seize, leg scoop, ankle pick, ...


You have given me too much credit for this. I wish I'm this smart to be able to create it in the 21 century. As I have said, this strategy came from the long fist system in Taiwan. I had used this strategy many times before. Back in the 70th there were a lot of golden glove boxers, TKD guys, and Kempo guys around (no MMA guys yet).


I don't think there are anything online reference for that. The 5 elements fighting strategy was also taught by my senior long fist brother Nelson Zou when he ran his "5 tigers club" in NYC. For those who lived in NYC during 1972-1976 may know that CMA school. They had over 500 students one time back in 1973. Dave Ross should know that school. My senior SC brother Zheng Sin-Ping (the 1st person who brought SC to US) was also a guest instructor and taught in that school.


Glad to see those clips that I put up on internet many years ago get popular. Here are some more fights plus 1 demo and 1 interview after demo from the original VHS tape. There is one more Bagua fight clip.

Sorry that the quality was not very good. I used a small WMV file converter. I didn't have road runner at that time.

http://johnswang.com/Bagua_fight.wmv
http://johnswang.com/fight_1.wmv
http://johnswang.com/fight_2.wmv
http://johnswang.com/fight_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/fight_4.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Chang_sc_3.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Chang_interview.wmv

Thanks for the additional vids. I can't play wmv's on my mac though.

[bawang]

I was talking about Kempo guys. I will never use horse stance in fighting. The horse stance is too conservative
hey mang the horse stance is not a real fighting stance in any chinese or asian martial art. in fite horse stance is the 5-5 stance defensive (si ping). i think its cool u know the traditional 46 and 37 stance u dont find a lot of people know that in america these days, but i dont think low side horse stance should be mentioned as a legit fighting stance. it represent a lot of things that are wrong with kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

But many Kempo guys that I had sparred with did use the "side horse stance". Their first move are usually the skip in side kick or front ridge hand (curve from below) followed by back hand punch. Try to spar a Kempo guy and then observe yourself.

The horse stance is one of the 3 most important stances in the throwing art. Many important throws use horse stance such as hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, firemen's carry, ...

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/koshiguruma.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uranage.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kataguruma.htm

[bawang]

i tried fighting like that in high school. i got my ass kicked very bad and i almost quit kung fu forever. if kenpo fights like that then im not surprised theyre not in the ufc.
ironically lots of mma people have been fighting with wide flat foot 50/50 stance for a few years already. they can apply horse stance rooting and four flat principles but kung fu guys cant, i think that also shows another problem

[YouKnowWho]

if kenpo fights like that then im not surprised theyre not in the ufc.

A Kempo guy Keith Hackney fought a 6'8" over 650 lbs Sumo guy Yarbarough in the UFC 3 match. Keith Hackney was forced to withdraw due to hand injury. Keith is a MMA guy now but he was a Kempo guy back in UFC 3.

[Lucas]

ive seen some crazy spring from low stances, not saying one should, but that some can. grappling uses a lot of low transition

[jdhowland]

...ironically lots of mma people have been fighting with wide flat foot 50/50 stance for a few years already. they can apply horse stance rooting and four flat principles but kung fu guys cant, i think that also shows another problem

Hey, bawang, I'm glad you brought this up. What are "four flats" as you learned them? I was told head-shoulders-hips-knees. In our style we train sei-pihng mah but in application we always raise one heel so it becomes more of a 4-6 distribution, used mostly for takedowns. If the takedown works it's easier to drop into a gwai mah for pinning

[Hardwork108]

For someone with self-admitted limited experience you judge way too much things you know very little about.

My limited experience is still more than your "mish mash", when it comes to kung fu. ;)

[Hardwork108]

You would say that, seeing as you have no actual fighting experience :)
You question what I say because you have no actual or authentic kung fu experience. Everything to you guys is a kickboxing match...LOL


He looked like any wrestler does in a no headshot fight, keeps his hands down and doesn’t move too much because he is in no danger of getting hit in the head...

So, why doesn't the other guy do the same?


please tell me what exactly is unique and kung fu like about it?

If you had any actual kung fu experience you would know that "hopping around" in the manner that guy was doing in the video, is not part of the kung fu arsenal, but rather it belongs to the elements in the Glorified Kickboxing camp.

You are not reading the thread, are you? LOL

[Lucas]

the guy in black struck me as very excited and antsy. perhaps his nerves got he best of him, who knows how comfortable he is in competition....i sure wouldnt move around like that in a throwing match.

i remember seeing this vid years ago, why is it listed as ba gua fight?

[Dragonzbane76]

I agree that it comes down to preference. Jumping all over the place isn't the best of options, but being light on the feet and fighting from angles isn't a bad thing.

I don't know that "kickboxing" has that much "jumping" around. I've seen some very rooted kickboxers fight and they were not "jumping" around. Like it was said above it comes down to the person and how they are learning. People go through stages that I've seen and some of these stages have people jumping around like rabbits, but I've also seen people move out of this to become powerhouses with stances that reach into the earth. Might have been that guys first fight, that would explain the jittering movements and hesitational movements.

[David Jamieson]

there was this boxer not so long ago named prince naseem who used to drop into a low horse and twist out of it with an uppercut. real unorthodox boxer. fun to watch while he lasted. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Talking about "hopping around", there is a footwork in the long fist system that can cover almost 15 feet in distance. If you have left leg forward, you can step forward with you left leg, jumpy up with your left leg, land with your right leg, and then land your left leg behind your right leg as a "stealing step". It's a very surprised attacking footwork because your opponent can't believe that you can attack from that distance. When you land your right leg in front of him, since the distance is still too far to reach him, he may laugh at you at that moment until your use your left leg stealing step to cover the remain distance and land a right punch right on his face.

[dimethylsea]

Well I guess we really didn't know Youknowwho, Oh the irony.

I've heard 5 element theory applied to offense through Hsing-Yi.

Wood Crushing 崩 Bēng To collapse, as a building collapsing in on itself.
Fire Pounding 炮 Pào Exploding outward like a cannon while blocking.
Earth Crossing 橫 Héng Crossing across the line of attack while turning over.
Metal Splitting 劈 Pī To split like an axe chopping up and over.
Water Drilling 鑽 Zuān Drilling forward horizontally like a geyser.

Never heard about 5 element defense or foot work through.

Is there a reference for that, preferably online?

Gao Bagua does 5 elements for bufa (as well as a 5 elements for shoufa and shenfa, all three basins).. plus an "eight gua" for each also.

平盘 ping pan flat basin

扣 kou detain
摆 bai swing
挤 ji press, crowd
夺 duo snatch (position)
趟 tang trip, sweep

I could link you but that web page is registration-visible only.

Gao Bagua also has a Ke Ba Gang 克八纲: Eight Defensive Principles thing.. but that's "super secret squirrel stuff" if I'm not mistaken.

[SPJ]

5 elements theory was and still is widely used.

in tong bei.

there are 5 element palm methods.

in push hand drills,

we call it pan shou or plate hand in tong bei.

there are also 5 element stepping methods and 5 element hand moves.

basically, advance, retreat, left, right and center.

-----

[sanjuro_ronin]

My limited experience is still more than your "mish mash", when it comes to kung fu. ;)

I though you said you lived in Colombia, because from here it looks like you live in La-La land.

[Dragonzbane76]

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt300/CassCass9395/crazy-road-signs.jpg

[SPJ]

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt300/CassCass9395/crazy-road-signs.jpg

then you would be doing a circle like a wind mill turning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryxLkU1lJKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM-f3Ahz8-E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl8fKAYQuPk&feature=related

:)

[dimethylsea]

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt300/CassCass9395/crazy-road-signs.jpg

Can you give me directions to XXXX?

You can't get there from here.

[Hardwork108]

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt300/CassCass9395/crazy-road-signs.jpg

Interestingly, this picture represents metaphorically, the dilemma faced by this forum's Glorified Kickboxers who still have not figured out the relevance of the subject matter of this thread, as regards traditional Kung Fu training......so they don't know where to go because they have no "map" and are unfamiliar with the terrain, because they have never studied, long enough, perhaps, with anyone who knew the terrain, to start with......

Thank you for posting......

[Dragonzbane76]

Thank you for posting......

your welcome....

[Yum Cha]

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt300/CassCass9395/crazy-road-signs.jpg

Is that the way to Goshin?

[Dragonzbane76]

Is that the way to Goshin?

It certainly is... hope this map was helpful. :D

[Sardinkahnikov]

there was this boxer not so long ago named prince naseem who used to drop into a low horse and twist out of it with an uppercut. real unorthodox boxer. fun to watch while he lasted. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfUFYtXNN0A

Hahahah, that guy is hilarious!
Being outclassed by someone dancing around the ring while wearing jaguar shorts must be a humbling experience :)
I couldn't identify the move you're talking about, tho.

[jmd161]

IMO, I think the jumping around is a matter of personal preference... I've noticed that a lot of badly trained TMA types employ this in "my experience" with ppl doing this.

I've never seen any art that employs this as a method of fighting.

[bawang]

Hey, bawang, I'm glad you brought this up. What are "four flats" as you learned them? I was told head-shoulders-hips-knees. In our style we train sei-pihng mah but in application we always raise one heel so it becomes more of a 4-6 distribution, used mostly for takedowns. If the takedown works it's easier to drop into a gwai mah for pinning

hay mang i learned pretty much same thing head feet shoulders fists. all kung fu fight the same

[jdhowland]

hay mang i learned pretty much same thing head feet shoulders fists. all kung fu fight the same

Yes. Train differently but fighting looks the same.

I've also heard that the fourth "level" is pihng sam, calm heart or steady mind. The other three seem to vary from school to school.

[SevenStar]

Most of us develop our "personal styles" within the context of certain arts and their concepts and principles. If I wanted just to just use my personal style, then I would not train in any art at all, specially a complex system(s) such as kung fu. I would just go into rough neighborhoods or get a job as night club security guy, and just develop my own personal way.

I could even cluelessly cross train my kung fu in other MAs whose principles and concepts contradicted my TCMA. However, when one decides to train in an authentic kung fu style with a genuine sifu then he should stick to that art's principles and concepts, and not contradict them because they happen to not fit his "personal style".......

Having said that, traditionally speaking when one does complete and or master a kung fu system, to a point where one "becomes" the system, then one can PERSONALIZE it.

IMHO, that is how things work, but unfortunately nowadays everyone and their grandmothers are creating their own personal ways, without first building a solid base - through genuine practice- in a given kung fu style. So, they mish and mash until they create a personalized style that works for them but has nothing to do with genuine kung fu practice.

personalization is an expression of martial art. you don't have to be a master to personalize what you know. Your goal is to have your own fighting style, not simply be a mirror of someone else. For learning form, that is fine in the beginning, but for fighting? No.

[SevenStar]

i tried fighting like that in high school. i got my ass kicked very bad and i almost quit kung fu forever. if kenpo fights like that then im not surprised theyre not in the ufc.
ironically lots of mma people have been fighting with wide flat foot 50/50 stance for a few years already. they can apply horse stance rooting and four flat principles but kung fu guys cant, i think that also shows another problem

the horse is a transitional stance essential in grappling styles. Watch judo throws. They don't fight out of the horse, but it is used all the time, and *gasp* with no stance training...

[SevenStar]

You question what I say because you have no actual or authentic kung fu experience. Everything to you guys is a kickboxing match...LOL

conversely, if you had any real kick boxing experience, you would know that such hopping around is not advocated. light footedness, yes, but hopping around like that, no. And in the very strict traditions, there was even less movement. Ever watch old thai boxing - before the western boxing influence? ever notice how they didn't bob / weave, move around a lot or anything?



So, why doesn't the other guy do the same?



If you had any actual kung fu experience you would know that "hopping around" in the manner that guy was doing in the video, is not part of the kung fu arsenal, but rather it belongs to the elements in the Glorified Kickboxing camp.


Which camp would this be?

[Hardwork108]

personalization is an expression of martial art. you don't have to be a master to personalize what you know.
Agreed, but then in that case everybody has their "personalized" style of fighting anyway.

We learn martial arts in order to fight more effectively, and to learn a given style of fighting one will have to learn FIRST then personalize LATER!


Your goal is to have your own fighting style, not simply be a mirror of someone else. For learning form, that is fine in the beginning, but for fighting? No.
That is why one has to learn and understand his given style of kung fu well before personalizing or "improving" it!

[YouKnowWho]

- The CON for "hopping around" is you always know that when your opponent hops up, he will need to hope back down on the ground.
- The PRO for "hopping around" is when he lands, you will not know whether his next hopping is forward, backward, left, or right.

[Violent Designs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvuX8m8RzqU

This is Yodsanklai Fairtex probably top 2-3 P4P fighter in Thailand right now, he DOES NOT "jump around" whatever the **** that means (I'm dead serious with a straight face).

Who "jumps around?" I only see TKD "jump around" nobody from Thai Boxing fights like Adon from Street Fighter.

Yod stalks his opponents and bashes them with the battering ram he calls a roundhouse kick.

DO YOU SEE JUMPING AROUND?

[Syn7]

Here is a clip showing a kung fu fighting competition. One of the fighters (in black) hops around and looks like he is from the Bruce Lee/kickboxing/Tae Kwon Do/pseudo TCMA/Glorified Kickboxing school of "kung fu". The other fighter in contrast has a very much solider base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdoEQf3mCaI&feature=related

This video demonstrates that one can fight using a kung fu "seatednees". I would say that it is possible for a kung fu exponent to use even a "solider" stance than this guy, during combat.

how many times does this guy in the black need to make the same mistake before he actually catches on???

good thing there was no ground fighting or he prolly wouldnt have gotten up from the first one...

a 1st year highschool wrestler could pummel this cat... he has absolutely no answer for the clinch, let alone any throws or takedowns...

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvuX8m8RzqU

This is Yodsanklai Fairtex probably top 2-3 P4P fighter in Thailand right now, he DOES NOT "jump around" whatever the **** that means (I'm dead serious with a straight face).
It means not being out of your roots in KUNG FU terms. This is a Kung fu forum, and I am a kung fu practitioner, so those are my standards.

Furthermore, many kung fu styles use different body unity principles to that of kickboxers, and their roots play an important part in this.


Who "jumps around?" I only see TKD "jump around" nobody from Thai Boxing fights like Adon from Street Fighter.¨

Lots of sports fighters "jump around" or are badly rooted, by kung fu standards. Therefore it makes sense to not follow their example if one is a kung fu practitioner.


Yod stalks his opponents and bashes them with the battering ram he calls a roundhouse kick.

DO YOU SEE JUMPING AROUND?

Yod's roots were good within the scopes of MT, but his opponent was not so good. IMHO, the opponent would not have lasted as long as he did if he had not been as tall as he was, and had not possessed the longer reach.

[Hardwork108]

how many times does this guy in the black need to make the same mistake before he actually catches on???

He seems to be an Eastern version of Homer Simpson....LOL

[Sardinkahnikov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvuX8m8RzqU

This is Yodsanklai Fairtex probably top 2-3 P4P fighter in Thailand right now, he DOES NOT "jump around" whatever the **** that means (I'm dead serious with a straight face).

Who "jumps around?" I only see TKD "jump around" nobody from Thai Boxing fights like Adon from Street Fighter.

Yod stalks his opponents and bashes them with the battering ram he calls a roundhouse kick.

DO YOU SEE JUMPING AROUND?

Bullsh!t, man! Yodsanklai hops around! Take a look at 6:30!!! If that's not jumping around, then I don't know what its!

On a serious note, I always though of roots as having body unit, as in having your spine aligned/connect to your hips and legs and having your weight centered so you can generate power. I mean, you'll have to be light on your feet, distribute weight when someone is charging at you, no way around that. So, I don't believe that being rooted = being low on your stance all the time.

[TenTigers]

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt300/CassCass9395/crazy-road-signs.jpg

Hardwork is lost in the backwoods and pulls up to a kid sitting on a fence.
He asks the youngster,"Do you know where xxxx is?"
"Nope." the youngster flatly replies.
HW, agered by the response says,"You're not very bright, are you?"
"Nope," he replied.
"But I ain't lost, neither!"

[Syn7]

Hardwork is lost in the backwoods and pulls up to a kid sitting on a fence.
He asks the youngster,"Do you know where xxxx is?"
"Nope." the youngster flatly replies.
HW, agered by the response says,"You're not very bright, are you?"
"Nope," he replied.
"But I ain't lost, neither!"

thats an old one!!! :p

my grampa used to have the best lil stories and sayings, like that... maaad cheesy jokes too... i miss him, he was a fountain of knowledge... not enough people listen to the elderly, if they did we wouldnt always repeat the same mistakes, over and over and over...

same goes for martial arts... we get caught up in whats new and exciting and we sometimes forget about all the work done before us...

the trick is to learnm the history and its lessons, take it with a grain of salt, yet take heed... learn as much new stuff as we can and apply it keeping in mind the principles, and most importantly, the lessons of old...

[YouKnowWho]

I don't believe that being rooted = being low on your stance all the time.

Agree! Some CMA guys like to assume that if both of your feet are on the ground, and if you stay low then you will have good rooting. By that definition, a turtle will have the best rooting. The static rooting is easy to develop but the dynamic rooting is not. If you can hop around with single leg and still remain your balance, you will truly have good rooting. IMO, the snow board guy will have the best rooting.

[Syn7]

i wonder how much surfing would help your stance, and vice versa... to me it seems like a great idea... good training:D