plum blossom mantis forms

[plummantisgeek]

so i have been practicing plum blossom mantis for about 3 years now regularly. i studied in south korea for 2 years with a teacher and about a year now by myself back here in the states. im not great but i enjoy it alot and devote a few hours daily to it. anyway i have been looking onthe internet for videos of forms that i know so i can reference what i was taught and what i have deduced from the forms myself. but i cant find any of the forms i was taught online except for one which is bong bo ive found tons of videos of seven star practiioners performing that with a few minor differences from what i was taught in plum blossom but basically the same. anyway i just wanted to list the name of my forms and see if anyone knew them and could give me references online or in books. thanks ahead of time for the help.
Forms:
1.San Po
2.Meihua Sam Sa
3.O tang
4.Sho En (this one is called tiger cub hunting it might be tiger style its a little different than the mantis forms.)
5.kume gon quan
6.Meihua Lo (he also called this Meihua Quan sometimes)

sorry i know thats not alot of info but anyone who has any plum blossom videos would be helpful. also i know a few weapons forms but my teacher just refered to them by the type of weapon so i dont know the names to look them up.

[Three Harmonies]

All depends on lineage, and using proper Chinese terms would be helpful as most do not reference the forms in Korean.
Just train what you have, sounds like plenty!
JAB

[MasterKiller]

Kume Gon Quan is "Golden Fist," correct?

Who was your teacher in Seoul?

A lot of the mantis in Seoul is mixed with long fist (and even Bagua), depending on who your line comes through.

Most places share Little Tiger Swallow (So Ho Yun Kwon) and Black Tiger Fist (Hok Ho Kwon).

[Dragonzbane76]

Kume Gon Quan is "Golden Fist," correct?

form in Pai Lum thats called "Golden Fist"

[Tainan Mantis]

This is Golden Tiger.
Is this one?
Can you translate the meaning of the names of the forms?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq65L8HMhZI

[YouKnowWho]

6.Meihua Lo (he also called this Meihua Quan sometimes).
The 梅花落 Meihua Lo, 梅花拳 Meihua Quan, and 梅花手 Meihua Shou are called 三花手 (San hua Shou) - 3 flowers hands. There are 3 different PM forms.

[cerebus]

"Sho En" would likely be the form I learned (also through a Korean curriculum) as "Shoien", which I was told translated as "The Young Tiger Dances". Later I learned that it's name in Chinese is Shaw Hu Yen or Young Tiger Swallow form.

[MasterKiller]

"Sho En" would likely be the form I learned (also through a Korean curriculum) as "Shoien", which I was told translated as "The Young Tiger Dances". Later I learned that it's name in Chinese is Shaw Hu Yen or Young Tiger Swallow form.

Chinese is Xiao Hu Yan Quan. Korean is So Ho Yun Kwon.

Other forms names you might come across (Korean spelling and pronounciation always differs wildly, though, and they never get the translation from Chinese right)

Mi Hwa Kwon (Mei Hua Quan) - Plum Blossom Fist
A Ga Kwon (Yue Jia Quan) - Yue Family Fist
Dae Ban Che Kwon (Da Fan Che Quan) - Big Turning Wheel
O Ho Kwon (Wu Hu Quan) - 5 Tigers Fist
Kerro Kwon (Kai Lu Quan) - Open Road Fist
So Chu Kwon (Xiao Suo Quan) - Small Reducing Fist

[RenDaHai]

Hey Guys,

I have seen Xiao Hu Yan a few times, its a fairly common form. In China forms are very often called 'Xiao' or 'Da' (small or big), its not really part of the name, Xiao comes before and implies the lesser, more common and more frequently used techniques and Da implies larger more powerful but less often used special techniques.

Anyway, when a form is called 'Xiao' it implies there is a 'Da' or a Big form as a pair with it.

Is there a Big Tiger swallow in any of your systems? Da Hu Yan? I would love to see it.

Also where is Tiger swallow from? I'm assuming (looking at it) its a borrowed form and not mantis originally....?

[YouKnowWho]

Xiao Hu Yan came from Yantai, Shangdong. It's 1/2 prey mantis (PM) and 1/2 long fist (LF) form. There is a long fist logo "upward palm block" in that form that does not exist in any other PM forms. I have also heard Da Hu Yan (large swallow tiger) and Jung Hu Yan (middle swallow tiger), but I have never seen those forms. Some teacher change the word from "小(Xiao) - little" to "啸(Xiao) - shouting" which pounced the same in Chinese so he doesn't have to answer his student's question like this.

[RenDaHai]

From Yantai hey? Cool. Thanks for the info. Would be cool to see the other sets.

yeah, I always thought it looks not entirely mantis. I wonder if there is (or was) an extant Tiger swallow style..... Its a strange name combination, I haven't seen it used in other styles.

[Tainan Mantis]

Here is zhong hu yan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KS2o0wIKlw

My shifu, says these were taught as Mi Zhong Yi.

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks for showing zhong hu yan. The da hu yan is also on the same page of youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTSme6oPTl4&feature=related

IMO, the 乱接 (Luan Jie) is a very important intermediate level PM training form. In this form, you train how to use your body to pull your limbs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbB51q24NJE&feature=related

and 摘要(Zhai Yao) is a very important advance level PM training form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QimLkCkCwGk&feature=related

[Three Harmonies]

John
What is the upward palm block you speak of, not found in Mantis?
Thanks
Jake

[YouKnowWho]

What is the upward palm block you speak of, not found in Mantis?
When your opponent punches at your face, you use your palm to upward lift on his elbow joint while your arm is straight. This will bounce your opponent's arm upward and miss your head. This move exists in almost all the long fist forms. It's a long fist trade mark IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek&feature=related

At 0.17 he did a right palm upward block, left palm upward block, followed by a right straight punch. This is a very common long fist "entering strategy" for body shot. When he blocks, his body leans backward. Both of his arms are straight. That's long fist "full extension" principle, and not prey mantis "small circle maximum speed" principle. Also at 0.18-0.19 in the 鉤搂採手(Gou Lou Cai Shou), the circles will be too big by using the prey mantis standard (long fist always like to use the maximum circle movement to train full body extension).

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek&feature=related


Not to derail the thread, but I hate that video. He completely ruins the flavor of that form.

[YouKnowWho]

I hate that video. He completely ruins the flavor of that form.
Do you expect prey mantis flavor in that form, or do you expect long fist flavor in that form? IMO, it's very difficult to expect "pure" prey mantis flavor in that form. Most of the moves are just too big by prey mantis standard. This one has more LF flavor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o&feature=fvw

There is another 1/2 prey mantis and 1/2 long fist form and that is 四路奔打(Si Lu Ben Da). This is the LF version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWY4joNlUk&NR=1

I believe this is the PM version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN4q7jadee0&feature=related

[mooyingmantis]

Not to derail the thread, but I hate that video. He completely ruins the flavor of that form.

I think its an excellent performance of that form. Very powerful, crisp and fast.
What did you find wrong with it? Please be specific. :)

Richard A. Tolson

[B.Tunks]

Li Zhanyuan via Kang Zhiqiang (Qixing Tanglang)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2hutfDXc0Y

[MasterKiller]

Do you expect prey mantis flavor in that form, or do you expect long fist flavor in that form? IMO, it's very difficult to expect "pure" prey mantis flavor in that form. Most of the moves are just too big by prey mantis standard. This one has more LF flavor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o&feature=fvw

There is another 1/2 prey mantis and 1/2 long fist form and that is 四路奔打(Si Lu Ben Da). This is the LF version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWY4joNlUk&NR=1

I believe this is the PM version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN4q7jadee0&feature=related

Both of those are much more relaxed and better examples of Long Fist movement.


I think its an excellent performance of that form. Very powerful, crisp and fast.
What did you find wrong with it? Please be specific. :)

Richard A. Tolson

It's too snappy. Long Fist is played relaxed. This guy is trying to generate Southern-style jing in a Northern form, and it looks horrendous.

[YouKnowWho]

This guy is trying to generate Southern-style jing in a Northern form, and it looks horrendous.
I agree with you 100% there. the long fist Jin is long Jin (punch through) which is different from the Chen Taiji vibration Jin or Baji Hammer Jin. It's more like the XingYi Jin.

[Three Harmonies]

Hmm, interesting. I do not know much LF, but it is all over Mantis! I call it the "Oh, ****" block;)

Thanks!
Jake

[mooyingmantis]

It's too snappy. Long Fist is played relaxed. This guy is trying to generate Southern-style jing in a Northern form, and it looks horrendous.

Masterkiller,
Thank you for the explanation! I have never played LF, so I appreciate the education. :)

Richard A. Tolson

[Tainan Mantis]

When your opponent punches at your face, you use your palm to upward lift on his elbow joint while your arm is straight. This will bounce your opponent's arm upward and miss your head. This move exists in almost all the long fist forms. It's a long fist trade mark IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek&feature=related

At 0.17 he did a right palm upward block, left palm upward block, followed by a right straight punch. This is a very common long fist "entering strategy" for body shot.
When he blocks, his body leans backward. Both of his arms are straight. That's long fist "full extension" principle, and not prey mantis

It looks like you are referring to 'Tiao Bao Cha Chui (lift embrace add the punch)', or 'Wo Li Pao( dig out the cave."

Video of two man drill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIOk-dZhJXA

Article
http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/dig%20out%20the%20cave.htm

BTw, that clip of Xiao Hu Yan above is a student of Yang Jwing Ming, descend from Han Qing Tang.
That was the national Tourny of '89, I think he got 2nd or 3rd?
I remember my shifu Art D'Agostino got first with White Ape Steals the Peach at that one.

[Tainan Mantis]

Li Zhanyuan via Kang Zhiqiang (Qixing Tanglang)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2hutfDXc0Y

That is the version that reminds ome of Cha Chui. To me, it makes it seem more likely that Cha Chui was originally a Longfist form.

[YouKnowWho]

hat clip of Xiao Hu Yan above is a student of Yang Jwing Ming, descend from Han Qing Tang.
May be there are some white crane Fajin that had been integrated into that form.

[MasterKiller]

John,
What's the significance of the opening move where you cross your hands in front of your face, palms up (Like in your video)? Does it come from anywhere/any style in particular?

[YouKnowWho]

John,
What's the significance of the opening move where you cross your hands in front of your face, palms up (Like in your video)? Does it come from anywhere/any style in particular?
It's a double palm forward push with finger tips pointing to each other. You then pull your hands back to your waist.

The Longfist system has strong influence from the SC system. It's one of the SC 13 Taibo moves "李奎磨斧 (Li Kui Mo Fu) - Li Kui sharps the axe". The application is to use your hands to push on your opponent's eyebrow area (forehead) when he shoots at your leg (or give you a bear hug, hip throw, ...) with his head "vertical". This will force his head to lean back and cause some pressure on his neck.

In the following picture, it's done in a horse stance instead.

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5452/eyebrowpush.jpg

[Tainan Mantis]

May be there are some white crane Fajin that had been integrated into that form.

Excellent conclusion, I agree.