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Oso
08-19-2000, 08:12 PM
I'm trying to research this brance of NPM.
There doesn't seem to be a lot out there.
Can anyone offer any suggestions, info or
contacts.

Many Thanks

Matt

Gen
08-20-2000, 12:43 PM
'Mimen Tanglangquan' (Secret Gate Mantis Boxing) is actually a form of 'Meihua Tanglangquan' (Plum Flower Mantis Boxing) that Zhang De-kui (a native of Laiyang County, Shandong) taught in Tainan, R.O.C. It was later on that students of Zhang De-kui named their teacher's form of Tanglangquan as 'Mimen Tanglangquan' to distinguish it from other Tanglangquan systems being taught in Taiwan.

There are several disciples of Zhang De-kui teaching 'Mimen Tanglangquan' in Taiwan - most notable is Shi Zheng-zong who teaches in Kaoshiung. He was recently here in the United States teaching in Florida, Texas, and Mississippi.

Another disciple, Su Yu-zhang, teaches in New York.

Stumblefist
10-21-2000, 03:31 PM
I belong to a Secret gate Society, believe me it's quite secret. That's why you don't know much about it and i'm not kidding. It is also quite large and maybe one of the last holdouts or reservoirs of traditional teaching and training methods lost to the mainstream so it appears. Also in the Secret Gate many of the techniques from forms have secrets which long later after you've learned the forms the teacher will open your eyes to and such a surprise it is!
They practice the brotherhood "wave" concept each higher level taking care of the lower levels and core groups like cadres, teas which are discussion, question, and technique seminars and "sharings", extreme emphasis on spirit and spiritual development through the physical, guiding this with teams in the exercises, ... the art maintains itself through the social organization.
Shi Zeng-Zong in Kaosiung in the other post is NOT the "most notable", in secret gate society, maybe just to that author.

8stepsifu
10-21-2000, 07:10 PM
Sounds like an effective system for organization.

8Step Sifu

woliveri
10-22-2000, 01:36 AM
So how can people get into the art if it's that
secret? Why is it so secret?

Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East
By Baird T. Spalding

Stumblefist
10-23-2000, 03:33 PM
I'd like to answer wolverine but it might take a few posts.
You have make a lot of connections and understandings about societies, orgs and human beings.
I daresay there are a lot of secret societies here in america though the members might not recognize them as such. If a society or org is both exclusive and closed, it is secret. Most of the monied bluebloods and financiers would know a lot about that.
So through each door is exclusivity and there are concentric circles of doors.
Even in the commercial clubs there is a lot of secret circles, much is based on ethnocentic bias and racism. Mostly, because a student is paying, the owners have some obligation to tell them what they can probably get for their money, like maybe a black belt after 5 years with so much effort as # of classes etc. and what techniques they have to learn. but as the students become higher up and more "hooked" there is less need to have obligations to them. Where the currency is not money, it becomes obligations. In a lot of southern type kung fu clubs the senior students initiate into lion dance and demo teams. They stop paying club fees. Then there are closed and exclusive doors within that often based on race or family.
So lets look at a university student in Southern Taiwan. He is Chinese, belongs to a monocultural society, is in the exact same age group as all his peers, there are no older or younger, everyone in Taiwan does everything at exactly the same age, the same thing. He has even passed through a series of exacting tests, so that practically everyone in his university department has the same intelligence level, the same interests etc etc... like a society of CLONES. Anyway, so he joins the kung fu club, for free, he could just as easily join the tennis club, kendo club etc. He passes through the first door and second doors of exclusivity by the accident of birth and culture and applied effort or merit. That person could also an elementary student in a small village or a high school in a small town and it would be the same situation -no commercialism - no outsiders.

Stumblefist
10-23-2000, 03:55 PM
So now in the example the university student is in a nonn-commercial club allied to any other exactly the same. It is the cell of a society with many cells. He only learns the kung-fu of his level - his study brothers group, all higher levels are secret, he doesn't see them train, except he sees some demonstrations. He sees enough to want it all, he sees 4th year students with killing power in their strikes and techniques like magic that he has never seen in a book, so of course he wants to continue. The organization is called a family and his classmates are not but study-older-sisters, study-younger-brothers, study-elder-brothers, study-brothers-of-my-level,study-father,study-mother. It's a new family. As he moves up the levels, it's automatic for everybody,his progress and study is automatic, he is in or he is out, his level and his group is always the same, there are no star-students, some students do learn more in a special because they are more talented etc. but that is invisible to all and unimportant the group and one's contribution to it is predominant. As he moves up each level he acquires obligations to junior levels. The obligations become very involved. He goes on voluntary winter, summer, weekend training and outings and study sessions. After 2 years he is introduced to a teacher who lives far away in the mountains. The students then visit the teacher oftern in their spare time, live and sleep and eat and learn. Then oppps, ther are 2 more groups for this student, after he graduates and after he leaves the armed forces (everyone goes - conscription) - and oops ,didn't i tell you? he is not yet a "real student" of the teacher - but he can become with another special group. But that will be the most "trusted" and they will have extensive obligations and any betrayal they will be out the door and they are with a brotherhood, its part of their whole life even in the army they take their furloughs to the montains.
Well i hope that gives you some of the flavor of what it means to go through closed doors. I'm out of time for now.

Stumblefist
10-24-2000, 04:02 PM
Well - a little bit more about the org of the cell in the university structure. Memebers can optionally go for winter and summer (3 and 6 week) full time training in the mountains at a temple. This is all the ancient temple training techniques fully alive to-day. There is no such thing as individuation, eg. having a private convo with a buddy, so not developing inidivual egos or worshipping stars. Everything is talk to the group or do in the group, eat, sleep, practise, wash clean-up, up at 5 for tai-qi and on into the day. And the talk is kung-fu, and the pressure is always on you to develop or express your concerns or questions. Emphasis to keep up your spirit and "the spirit of the group" is predominant. In the university cell, your year of joining is your generation number and those who join with you are always your study-brothers of your level, that is your generation-level of inheritors of the style, it doesn't matter how far you go, those who come after are always your junior brothers. If you join in the 32nd year since the founding of the CELL in the university club you are generation 32 and always introduce yourself as such. So progress and development must be automatic, you must stay with your group, there is no really pass or fail, you will learn the common foundation that everybody must learn or you will drop out, but you are encouraged to stay. There are formal demos of what you have learned at specific times and one on one fighting in front of the group (just like "enter the dragon"). But there is no one publicly marking or passing or failing you. Talented people will learn more or take a more active role sometimes, but that is only their concern, you won't even see it and everybody must learn all the basics for the basics are the real kung -fu fundamentals so it is thought - basic fundamentals which when understood and mastered will enable you to understand HOW to train in ANY kung-fu or OTHER sport - well maybe a somewhat extravagant claim, but a noble goal. Everyone will pass through the "headquarters" unit from their second into their 3 years. Meaning everyone will assume teaching resposiblities. Some of course might be team captains while others have lesser reponsibilities but everyone must pass trough this and take on reponsibilities for junior brothers. The cell unit is self-sustaining, it has a coach ( very elder brother ) who comes to visit and advise, and relations to other cells and a teacher in the mountains, but with the "wave" system it can sustain itself independently. Relationships with brothers-the-same-level are life-long and probably the most important, your group is that generation of inheritors. Once i know there was some disturbance, the entire generation walked off the mountain as a unit, that's the loyalty developed.
Myself.. i am foreigner, first, only, and no doubt last, a matter of fate, an accident. Some of the brothers would like to see a truck run over me, others would like to drive the truck.The teacher and i have an affinity so the traditionalists must grind their teeth at least for now.

Mantis_Hand
10-24-2000, 04:09 PM
this sounds bizarre! but very grand to say the least. Almost like something from a Shaw Brothers movie. How did you get involved in something like this? Was it your Sifu who introduced you to the society? What is the ultimate purpose of Secret Door? Now you've got me REALLY interested in this.

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Stumblefist
12-10-2000, 06:12 AM
Hi Mantis Hand,
Not that i give a dog's ear about the secrecy but you can see from the following communication that the last thing i should do is to make their predictions come true. However, i invite anyone to look about. I hope this society will more and more open up because this ethnocentrism is really a form of racism. Contrary to this attitude my teacher is a spiritual person and doesn't condone this. However, it is like an emperor has to deal with all the warlords and their kingdoms in his empire. The racism is just like the nazis in defining "in" vs "out" groups. It is really a method used by individuals to maintain power over a group by defining an enemy to band against. They don't really care about the group, they only try to be the groups leader and make people follow them.
I think the society is only martial arts... Though they formerly had a close connection with training Guomingdang security and secret service.
The members are a cross section of society. The intake reaches the highly educated and elite that have these types of interests. There are many of the scholar-warrior type of person.
The teacher doesn't advertise, doesn't display pictures of himself and his teachers, works a farm, no money changes hand except for expenses, lectures to students on martial arts, spirituality, moral character, and on social integration and success. People travel from all over Taiwan to visit him, sleep, eat, help with chores, learn, do tea sessions w questions which become seminars. There are ceremonies where groups become "real" students or disciples.
................................................
Excerpt of chat with a study brother in
the "gate" regarding an senior elder brother... The "explanation" given is of course a fairy tale.
...(I am protecting you,(juniors), from the evil foreigners)... .................................................
>I think he was trying to protect the younger brothers and sisters ...
Because you had learned
>so many kind of martial art , and you couldn't stay in the club forever, you had traveled all over the world, and had so
>many apportunities to contact other kinds of martial art and people, then they would know what we learned. Maybe,
>someday in the future, somebody went to ****** ... club,and had a challenage to the younger brothers and sisters,
>and we didn't there at that time and protected them. So, maybe for this reason, that's why brother *** had to ... like that.
>

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 12-10-00 at 10:33 PM.]

Oso
01-04-2006, 11:54 AM
ahh, such an innocent beginning...and a friggin crash course in forum BS.

kinda funny though.

Yes, I'm bored at work...been trying to reconcile a descrepency in an asbestos management program from 1989 to 2005....fugging bored to tears and I can't see straight....so, I'm going through old posts in between annual reports....

Oso
01-07-2006, 03:05 PM
you realize this is a 5 year old thread?

it just happens that I ran across it and realized it was my very first post on this here forum. {sniff, sniff} ;)

it's from this humble beginning that I ended up with Pong Lai. :)


'gen's response was the only legit one and stumblefist was an acknowledged troll.

Sifu Darkfist
01-07-2006, 03:14 PM
boy i was suckered lol
good one man
totally owned !!!!!!

Oso
01-07-2006, 03:44 PM
FTR, i wasn't trying to get anyone.


just being slightly sentimental in finding my first post.:)

yu shan
01-07-2006, 07:54 PM
Personally, it is nice when Oso is bored, you dig up very nice old threads! I wonder who this Gen was. Master Shr did come over in 2000. I would like to hear more about Mimen being a form of Meihua. And Sifu Darkfist, why did you say you were suckered and owned? Just curious brother, are you still coming to the tournament in Asheville?

Sifu Darkfist
01-08-2006, 07:55 AM
Oh yes i will be there in Asheville unless something tragic prevents this.

I was owned by the thread because i thought the guy was writting the stuff write there and then. I missed Oso talking about nostalgia. THe thread set me off on a torrent of anger regarding racism and its practices. However i deleted my reply because it was not going to be read by the person it was aimed at. As it is over five years old.

I thought it was funny that i feel victim to my own stupidity.

Oso
01-08-2006, 02:19 PM
yea, it's sad that the worst times are when you do it to yourself...I used to think I'd get smarter as I got older...alas....



Yu Shan:

Mantis108 makes many comments both here and on MQ about the 'Greater Meihua' family of PM containing (if I'm not mistaken) Plum Flower, Tai Chi Plum Flower, Tai Chi, 8 Step and Mimen.

Kevin has said that GM Kuai only called his mantis 'old mantis'.

It was 'gen's response to my question that led me to research Shiye's Shi and Su.

Then I made the connection between Kevin who I had run across on Sifu Cottrel's old listserv and then he started posting here and then I got aquainted w/ you and you invited me to Shifu John's 18 Elders seminar in Nashville that I couldn't make...then you came over to do the Chi Shou seminar here.